Author Topic: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)  (Read 90091 times)

aquiefrog

  • Guest
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2007, 06:34:14 am »
Yay! any chance that the maul, sledgehammer, and warhammer will be worked on?

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2007, 07:31:57 am »
Yay! any chance that the maul, sledgehammer, and warhammer will be worked on?

I could ... what do you guys think they should be?

I mean, one civilian wooden maul, and a couple of German-looking great-hammers?  Or something with a longer handle?  Anybody a fan of the long mace? 

Just by patching and rescaling bits and pieces from Native models, I can cook up just about anything (as long as it doesn't have to be TOO accurate to a particular real-world piece) ... but I need to know what you all have in mind.

Note that items can be renamed, as far as what players know, without changing the name of the item.  That is, we can have the screen read "Great Hammer" without actually changing the item identifier "itm_maul" ... so it would still be Native-compatible even if we turn them into completely different objects.

Offline mtarini

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1495
  • TLD dev team
    • View Profile
    • (home)
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2007, 01:51:13 pm »
I'm totally ignorant of medieval weaponry. But, I really like the why the new sizes look on screen. Much better! Love it. KUDOS!

I am a little worried that this is making Mods influence native, and back. I would prefer that each Mod was independent from
native and from each other. Would that be possible?

Like, making each converted MOD use its own copy of any native weapon it uses, coherently resizing that copy rahter than the originals?
(so that a realistic resized mods would not use any of native?). Is this difficult to get, or does it involve just a little cut-and-pasting?

Apologies if the answer for this is stated somewhere or is self evident.

Offline The Yogi

  • Guildsman
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2007, 03:25:58 pm »
I'm totally ignorant of medieval weaponry. But, I really like the why the new sizes look on screen. Much better! Love it. KUDOS!

I am a little worried that this is making Mods influence native, and back. I would prefer that each Mod was independent from
native and from each other. Would that be possible?

Like, making each converted MOD use its own copy of any native weapon it uses, coherently resizing that copy rahter than the originals?
(so that a realistic resized mods would not use any of native?). Is this difficult to get, or does it involve just a little cut-and-pasting?

Apologies if the answer for this is stated somewhere or is self evident.


No problem, and yes, that is possible, although tiresome.

Strictly speaking, the so called "Native weapons" are not a part of the "Native" module, since they are located in common resources, and so available for all mods to use. A better name would actually be "standard weapons", so it's not really a case of Native affecting mods and mods native... Native is a module, and like any other module, it can (and does) draw from the Common Resources. RNWS is not a "Mod" as in "Module" but as in "Modification" and what it modifies are the Common Resources.

The point of my resize is that Native sizes are wrong, and look bad, and since they appear in most mods, it's easier to strike at the roots of evil, so to speak.

But anyway, you'd have create a copy of each reduced weapon mesh and give it a new name and put them all in a new weapon mesh file, then substitue the original model names in the item file with the new names. I hope that was understandable.

But what I'd do in your place is to make using my mod optional, ie, make two item files, one for normal native weapons and one for realistic native weapons -just copy and paste from my source file, it should take you about 30 seconds. That way, your mod will be compatible with either one of the two. I'm getting the feeling quite a few people do not like RNWS (probably they just LUUUV swinging around swords the sizes of railroad track sections because it makes them feel manly) and it would be a shame if they dissed your mod for using my rescale.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 03:32:24 pm by The Yogi »

Offline The Yogi

  • Guildsman
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2007, 03:39:15 pm »
Yay! any chance that the maul, sledgehammer, and warhammer will be worked on?

I could ... what do you guys think they should be?

I mean, one civilian wooden maul, and a couple of German-looking great-hammers?  Or something with a longer handle?  Anybody a fan of the long mace? 

Ron, how about we have the sledgehammer being a civilian tool used as a weapon? I'm thinking simply a smith's tool, a squarish block of iron mounted as a hammerhead?


As for the maul... how about something like this?


The warhammer I imagine as a two-handed equivalent of the so called military hammer, I guess that would be the great hammer you mentioned.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 03:44:26 pm by The Yogi »

Offline mtarini

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1495
  • TLD dev team
    • View Profile
    • (home)
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2007, 04:22:16 pm »
No problem, and yes, that is possible, although tiresome.

I see. Yes, really tiresome.

But anyway, you'd have create a copy of each reduced weapon mesh and give it a new name and put them all in a new weapon mesh file, then substitue the original model names in the item file with the new names. I hope that was understandable.

Wouldn't it be enough to make RNWS a mod, and place all the edited brf file in its resource folder, and make the "ini" file link with that with a "load_mod_resource" instead of "load_resource"? That way, you can play it as a mod (as in module). Other mods that use it, like TLD, could do likewise (include native edited brf files in their resource folder, link them with a "load_mod_resource" command).

The point is that other MODS, like fantasy, or warhammer, might be perfectly ok with the original oversized weapons. I think. Just guessing, all I know about them is their title.


Offline The Yogi

  • Guildsman
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2007, 06:07:35 pm »
Heh, I think you might be on to something there.  :-[

Yes, that should work. I forgot even the common resources are loaded up through commands in the ini file. Take those away, and you could perfectly well load up the weapon_meshes files through a mod resource command.

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2007, 11:37:47 pm »
Yay! any chance that the maul, sledgehammer, and warhammer will be worked on?

I could ... what do you guys think they should be?

I mean, one civilian wooden maul, and a couple of German-looking great-hammers?  Or something with a longer handle?  Anybody a fan of the long mace? 

Ron, how about we have the sledgehammer being a civilian tool used as a weapon? I'm thinking simply a smith's tool, a squarish block of iron mounted as a hammerhead?


As for the maul... how about something like this?


The warhammer I imagine as a two-handed equivalent of the so called military hammer, I guess that would be the great hammer you mentioned.

The "great hammer" of Germany was in fact a large version of the military hammer.

I am unaware of any non-military sledgehammers using iron heads before the industrial revolution.  Smaller shop hammers, sure, but I think all large mauls were wood.

Sent you a wooden mallet model ... check your e-mail.  Will get the others ASAP.

Offline The Yogi

  • Guildsman
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2007, 05:46:14 am »
Saw it, liked it, will use.

The problem, it seems, is that a pre-industrial sledgehammer is basically the same thing as the maul you sent me, except possibly for size. Maybe we could just consider them two sizes of the same thing, the maul being for 1-handed use and the sledgehammer for two-handed?


Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #69 on: October 29, 2007, 06:48:42 am »
Saw it, liked it, will use.

The problem, it seems, is that a pre-industrial sledgehammer is basically the same thing as the maul you sent me, except possibly for size. Maybe we could just consider them two sizes of the same thing, the maul being for 1-handed use and the sledgehammer for two-handed?



I'll try to get them tomorrow - my plan was to make two military-type great hammers.  They can be written in over the other two native hammer items, and we're done.  If you really want to get elaborate, we can rework things like "iron hammer" earlier in the list... but that's starting to go beyond a resize and into a major weapons rework.  Not that I'm opposed to that, but I think we're going to need some more help ... my modeling skills are not up to the task.

A maul, a two-handed mallet, a two-handed hammer and a sledgehammer ARE the same thing, essentially.  A "war hammer" could be any hammer designed for combat, large or small, of any material or from any time period.  A "great hammer" referred to a big two-handed version of the "military hammer" (which is actually a sort of small pick) similar to a pole-hammer (like the bec-de-corbin I sent you).

I figure you can rename the other two ... call them "war hammer" and "great hammer" (in the display name, not the item name, so it will still work with Native) and you're done.  They'll need new stats in the RCM version for sure...

I'll try to get those ASAP ... but I just got the items file for ONR, and I want to get that back to Fujiwara first.  (I'm holding up the show there.  Lot of people waiting for the next version of ONR.)  Then I'll try to get those hammers before going back to the troop tree for "Cult of the Big Lizard".  I've just got too darn many irons in the fire.  But stand by ... I WILL get those hammers to you.

I should probably eventually look over your RCM stats for this project too ... but I'll wait until we're a little closer to final.  You're probably close enough on most of them for now.

I've got too many irons in the fire.

Offline The Yogi

  • Guildsman
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2007, 09:22:53 am »
Let's make things simple, and try to stay as close to Native as possible. Armagan called them Maul and Sledgehammer, so let's make them exactly that, albeit more realistic than the neolithic weapons we had before - we can use variations on that wooden mallet you sent me and be done with it.

As for great hammers, I think we only need one, to replace the "Warhammer", right?

EDIT: The RCM stats for this project so far are very much a bodgejob. My basic assumption has been that stats should NOT change much, except for when relative sizes have changed. So Native swords have more or less unchanged stats, but the new swords get a little more damage than before since most are as big as the original native ones and the long ones are now bigger (lenght 84-86). Speed probably needs to be reworked a bit, the lenght 80 swords have speed around 100-102 (with higher stats for tapering swords and lower for parallel edge swords such as viking swords). The longer swords have speeds around 96-98.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 09:27:56 am by The Yogi »

sdog

  • Guest
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2007, 10:24:44 am »
can't imagine how this mod could drop out of my memory...
just found it again and i'm eager to try it out. from what i've read here it seems like it's quite a decent improvement!

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2007, 06:09:29 pm »
Let's make things simple, and try to stay as close to Native as possible. Armagan called them Maul and Sledgehammer, so let's make them exactly that, albeit more realistic than the neolithic weapons we had before - we can use variations on that wooden mallet you sent me and be done with it.

As for great hammers, I think we only need one, to replace the "Warhammer", right?

EDIT: The RCM stats for this project so far are very much a bodgejob. My basic assumption has been that stats should NOT change much, except for when relative sizes have changed. So Native swords have more or less unchanged stats, but the new swords get a little more damage than before since most are as big as the original native ones and the long ones are now bigger (lenght 84-86). Speed probably needs to be reworked a bit, the lenght 80 swords have speed around 100-102 (with higher stats for tapering swords and lower for parallel edge swords such as viking swords). The longer swords have speeds around 96-98.

Native just has three big neolithic hammers with random names.  What we do with them is our game ... as long as they stay some kind of hammer, it won't even cause inventory order in shops to look funny.  I mean, in English, "maul" and "sledgehammer" are two terms for the same item.  However, since there were three of them with the same stone hammer model, I figure we need three different ones to cover the spread.  That was my idea of keeping it simple.

I will look over those RCM stats eventually ... but ONR stats come first (this morning), and the hammers (hopefully today) ... and looking at those stats is later.

DaBlade

  • Guest
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2007, 08:32:54 pm »
Calradia at War has some nice hammers (I think they are from Stone Dude's weapon pack), maybe you could use them... may need to be resized, though. Or make your own stuff, you did well with the poleaxe and polehammer. ;)

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2007, 08:42:35 pm »
Calradia at War has some nice hammers (I think they are from Stone Dude's weapon pack), maybe you could use them... may need to be resized, though. Or make your own stuff, you did well with the poleaxe and polehammer. ;)

Two more hammers sent ... we should be good for now.

I don't know if what I was doing counts as "make my own" ... Except for the wooden mallet, I've just been messing with elements of Native items.  A little cut-and-paste, a little selective rescale.  More like "rework" than "make".