Author Topic: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)  (Read 53918 times)

aquiefrog

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2007, 05:14:42 AM »
this seems to work:

Code: [Select]
["fighting_axe", "Fighting Axe", [("fighting_ax",0)], itp_type_two_handed_wpn|itp_merchandise| itp_primary|itp_bonus_against_shield|itp_penalty_with_shield, itc_cleaver|itc_nodachi|itcf_carry_axe_left_hip, 77 , weight(2.5)|difficulty(9)|spd_rtng(92) | weapon_length(71)|swing_damage(32 , cut) | thrust_damage(0 ,  pierce),imodbits_axe ],

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2007, 05:35:22 AM »
Ah, great! I think the critical missing part here is "penalty with shield". Will try it out and include in next release if it works.

Thanks!

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2007, 05:40:57 AM »
this seems to work:

Code: [Select]
["fighting_axe", "Fighting Axe", [("fighting_ax",0)], itp_type_two_handed_wpn|itp_merchandise| itp_primary|itp_bonus_against_shield|itp_penalty_with_shield, itc_cleaver|itc_nodachi|itcf_carry_axe_left_hip, 77 , weight(2.5)|difficulty(9)|spd_rtng(92) | weapon_length(71)|swing_damage(32 , cut) | thrust_damage(0 ,  pierce),imodbits_axe ],

drop itc_cleaver from that line before you crash something.


"penalty with shield" won't do anything to the animation - it only modifies statistics.  Problem is that itc_cleaver is a one-handed attack animation.  It needs a two-handed one (itc_nodachi).  But don't use both, like that line above ... you really could crash something.


Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2007, 05:44:54 AM »
drop itc_cleaver from that line before you crash something.


"penalty with shield" won't do anything to the animation - it only modifies statistics.  Problem is that itc_cleaver is a one-handed attack animation.  It needs a two-handed one (itc_nodachi).  But don't use both, like that line above ... you really could crash something.

Right. But won't I need both a one-handed and a two-handed animation for this to work?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2007, 05:52:52 AM »
drop itc_cleaver from that line before you crash something.


"penalty with shield" won't do anything to the animation - it only modifies statistics.  Problem is that itc_cleaver is a one-handed attack animation.  It needs a two-handed one (itc_nodachi).  But don't use both, like that line above ... you really could crash something.

Right. But won't I need both a one-handed and a two-handed animation for this to work?

Shoot .... does itc_nodachi not have both?  I know it has the from horseback one-handed stuff.  Well, leave them both and see - but if it acts funny, double-check which moves are included in each of those and see if any might conflict.  (Also check if itc_nodachi has a scabbard command with it ... that will certainly conflict if it does.  I made the mistake of using itc_dagger on a model without a scabbard once.)

aquiefrog

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2007, 06:37:26 AM »
Nodachi has itc_cut_two_handed | itc_parry_two_handed

I checked it while riding. It didn't crash at all.  header_items.py contains the contents of attack capabilities.  the native code for bastardsword is itself redundant and has never crashed any game as far as i know.

Look:

- itc_bastardsword = itc_cut_two_handed |  itcf_thrust_twohanded | itc_parry_two_handed |itc_dagger

- itc_cut_two_handed = itcf_force_64_bits | (itcf_slashright_twohanded | itcf_slashleft_twohanded | itcf_overswing_twohanded |
                                           itcf_horseback_slashright_onehanded|itcf_horseback_slashleft_onehanded)

- itc_dagger  = itc_cleaver | itcf_thrust_onehanded

- itc_cleaver = itcf_force_64_bits | (itcf_overswing_onehanded|itcf_slashright_onehanded|itcf_slashleft_onehanded |
                                    itcf_horseback_slashright_onehanded|itcf_horseback_slashleft_onehanded)

Therefore:

itc_bastardsword =  itcf_force_64_bits | (itcf_slashright_twohanded | itcf_slashleft_twohanded | itcf_overswing_twohanded |
                                           itcf_horseback_slashright_onehanded|itcf_horseback_slashleft_onehanded)|  itcf_thrust_twohanded | itc_parry_two_handed |itcf_force_64_bits | (itcf_overswing_onehanded|itcf_slashright_onehanded|itcf_slashleft_onehanded |
                                    itcf_horseback_slashright_onehanded|itcf_horseback_slashleft_onehanded)| itcf_thrust_onehanded

Anyway, I'm not sure why it works, however I removed "itp_two_handed" from the fighting axe, and tacked on itc_cleaver and itcp_penalty_with_shield.

In game, I didn't notice a significant difference in speed, however damage seems to be lower while used with a shield (and on a horse).  (i was fighting river pirates using vanilla damage scale).

Also, I thought scabbard properties are modified by something else?

itcf_show_holster_when_drawn <--- this
("scab_bastardsw", ixmesh_carry) <--- and this?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2007, 07:08:24 AM »
Yeah ... don't know if it still does, but itc_dagger used to include itcf_show_holster_when_drawn ... needless to say, if used with something that didn't have a scabbard, things went south pretty fast, and realizing where the problem was could take time.  I thought itc_nodachi used to include a scabbard command, but maybe it was something else that did that.  I've monkeyed with so many of these things that it's all running together.


aquiefrog

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2007, 08:09:12 AM »
Um... I know Yogi said the pole_ax is being worked on already... but I was taking a break from making mask helms and did this:



it's the pole ax from the resize project, and i just stretched the knob thingy on top to make a spearhead.

DaBlade

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2007, 10:27:40 AM »
That looks good.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2007, 03:25:37 PM »
Looks OK, and almost exactly like the one I did and Ron textured for me. I just copied the point of the spear, sized it down and attached it to the top of the pollaxe. Will be included in the next release.

As for total length, I was aiming at about 180-190 cm total length, since depictions of Medieveal pollaxes seem to be about man-length. In XVI and XVII century writings total lengths are cited at above 2 metres, but I'm going with the earlier size.

I'll try to get the next version out for tomorrow evening.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2007, 04:10:19 PM »
BTW, how does this look? The whole weapon (not the length stat) is 180 cm, but it still looks a bit largeish to me. Maybe reduce even further?


aquiefrog

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2007, 07:29:38 PM »
I think the axehead (dunno the correct term) is too large.  I don't have any expert knowledge on pole axes, but wikipedia says the pole ax's axehead is smaller than the average battle axe.  I'm trying to scour pictures off the internet for reference.

Edit: I can no longer find where I read that pole axes had smaller axe blades.  I'm not sure if that's the case any more.  However, I think a smaller axe blade would make it easier to handle (also looks more proportionate, aesthetically), i would guess that in theory, the added length of the weapon would give enough leverage to compensate for having a lighter axehead.

I think the overall length is fine, could be longer.

Also, maybe we can instead make two versions of the pole axe?  one with spike (wikipedia says it's supposed to be dagger-like), and one without.  The version without a spike would have to have its thrusting attacks removed making it a dedicated swinging polearm or make it do blunt damage with similar damage values to a staff... not sure what to do with couched lance...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 07:51:09 PM by aquiefrog »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2007, 11:27:00 PM »
If you want to know what a real pollaxe looks like, try here:

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/NotesLEJEUDELAHACHE.htm

That's the ARMA collection notes on "La Jeu de la Hache", which they have illustrated with prints from Talhoffer and others.  That will show exactly what size they were.

And yeah, that one still looks a little funny.  I think it's because the pole is WAY too small in diameter.

On length, George Silver:  "Of the lengths of the battle axe, halberd, or black bill, or such like weapons of weight, appertaining unto guard or battle.  In any of these weapons there needs no just length, but commonly they are, or ought to be five or six foot long, & may not well be used much longer, because of their weights, and being weapons for the wars and battle, when men are joined close together, may thrust, & strike sound blows, with great force both strong and quick. "

Yogi:  give me a few days to think about it, and I'll try to cook up a decent pole-axe and pole-hammer.  They likely won't be anything too special, but they will at least be decent sizes.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2007, 11:38:49 PM »
Fine, no hurry.

In the meantime, I'll play with greater reduction in length, but lesser in width. This will give a stouter pole and a narrower axe-head - might look better, perhaps even good enough.

I don't think there should be a pollaxe without a spear point. That is not a pollaxe, just a plain axe, and we have several of those already.

Papa Lazarou

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2007, 05:28:30 AM »
Are you planning to resize bows too? That'd be good.

Hope this isn't clutter =/