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Author Topic: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)  (Read 51657 times)

Offline The Yogi

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REALISTIC NATIVE WEAPON SIZES



See a SLIDESHOW with many pics of the new sized-weapons at Imageshack!

Downolad link at the
M&B Unofficial File Repository.

Very simply, this mod reduces the size of all oversized native weapons (not polearms though) to about 80-85% of original. It also turns the broadsword into a Cinqueda style Shortsword. Comes ready to play for Native and with Python source code pruned for easy implementation into other mods. RCM and vanilla versions.

CURRENT VERSION:
v1.61 - Bugfix: the RCM item1 file of v1.6 was broken, fixed now. Broadened the blade and scabbard of the war sword by 15%, replaced the boar spear, peasant knife and Khyber knife with models by Ron Losey, implemented the reading from module installation - RNWS no longer replaces or interferes with original native files or with mods not set to use RNWS.

IN THE WORKS:
  • Finally fixing the Strange Swords from the hidden chests
  • ...and finally, for an RNWS Deluxe, resizing of the Raptor Pack Albion swords to correct measurements (from the Albion homepage) and adding of scabbards (the Scabbards are TLD property and will only be in the TLD version of RNWS)

The following mods use or plan to incorporate the Realistic Native Weapons Size:

Feel free to use it in your own mod, although please give me credit for it and drop a line about it in this thread so that I know of it.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 10:31:38 AM by The Yogi »

Offline Fisheye

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2007, 04:55:29 PM »
Nice work.

The length stats of Native were usually incompatible with the true model length: you can see this by using the "length" tool in BRFEdit.

I wonder if you just shrank Native's lengths by 80% or if you used lengths that are correct for the newly scaled models?

PS your lengths for the sword of war and the greataxe are wrong... dunno how many more errors there may be.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 05:02:13 PM by Fisheye »

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 05:06:58 PM »
Nice work.

The length stats of Native were usually incompatible with the true model length: you can see this by using the "length" tool in BRFEdit.

I wonder if you just shrank Native's lengths by 80% or if you used lengths that are correct for the newly scaled models?

I got the length stat using the tool in BRFEdit. That was a Godsend, otherwise I would never have attempted this. The stats for those weapons I have changed should thus be exactly correct. I also changed one or two legnth stats for weapons I did not change (ie polearms) that were clearly off.

EDIT: Damn, missed those two. Might be others, this was thrown together quick and dirty... will keep bug-hunting.


« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 05:16:38 PM by The Yogi »

Offline Fisheye

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 05:15:41 PM »
Excellent, thanks.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2007, 10:44:12 PM »
I don't know if you did or not ... haven't got it downloaded yet ... but feel free to mess with the RCM source code and do a version of that.  (I'll try to eventually get back to actually trying to balance speed and damage better to these new sizes, but that may have to wait for a while...)  Latest RCM version with source is up on the Repository now (Fujiwara got it posted for me).

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 02:38:49 AM »
I'm messing with it right now... will have an RCM version up shortly, with a few more bugfixes.

BTW, the ini file coming with final RCM for v.892 causes an RGL failure with v.894.

EDIT: And it's up!


Now I'm having a look on the new swords in weapon_meshes_c.brf (the axes are fine). They are a little bit big too, although not as bad as the vanilla stuff. I'm fooling around with a reduction to 85% of current size, that should make them about to scale with the old vanilla weapons and comparable stats can be used. I'll have it up soon.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 06:35:08 AM by The Yogi »

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2007, 06:38:56 AM »
I don't know if you did or not ... haven't got it downloaded yet ... but feel free to mess with the RCM source code and do a version of that.  (I'll try to eventually get back to actually trying to balance speed and damage better to these new sizes, but that may have to wait for a while...)  Latest RCM version with source is up on the Repository now (Fujiwara got it posted for me).

As soon as the .894 source is out, I'll do a version of the RCM source file for the reduced weapons. It'll include the reduced newer swords and a quick and dirty stats rebalance (many,many swords will have exactly the same stats, because I'm going mainly by lenght.

I guess you look at the whole weapon, shape, extrapolate weight and so on, so hopefully you'll be able to impart some variation to these otherwise cloned weapons.

Offline LCJr

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2007, 08:28:11 AM »
Aren't the 2H axes too small?  Everything I've seen on the Danish axe puts the haft at 4 to 6 feet.  4ft being the most common length given.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2007, 09:35:34 AM »
Four feet, that's about 1.2 metres...



Looks about right to me. (Battle Axe)

Offline LCJr

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2007, 10:10:49 AM »
How tall are people in M&B?

That's a battle ax correct?  So you're saying length 72 = 4 feet?  Doesn't that put pretty much all swords at over 4 ft?  Sword length=79, scimitar=78, etc...
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 10:26:42 AM by LCJr »

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2007, 10:49:37 AM »
No, you're right. That heft is more like 1m (little over three feet), I'd guesstimate. Still, from the size of the axe-head it looks like a credible weapon of war to me. Even if the Danish axes were as long as you describe, it doesn't mean all battle axes had to be. You still have the pole axe with a reach of 180, that could well be the six feet axe you mentioned. The Great-Axe at length 88 should be about four feet.

Still, of course we could have better results if we rescaled the weapons individually, but that would also mean redoing the damage and speed stats (since relative size would change). In this way, by reducing all weapons by the same amount, we can keep rebalancing to a minimum.

In the next version (already half there, RCM version is completed), I did reduce the new medieval and viking swords with only to 85% (they had more realistic size to begin with) and as a result, I've had to redo damage stats for all of them. Don't want to go that way unless I have to.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 10:54:29 AM by The Yogi »

Offline LCJr

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2007, 11:04:36 AM »
Why do you feel the stats need to be redone?  If you felt the armor needed to be rescaled would you think it's protection value needs to be increased/decreased?

BTW the measurement I have for the length of the cutting surface on "typical" Viking ax of the ~11th century is 23 cm.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2007, 11:31:15 AM »
Because as a general rule, the bigger the stick, the more it hurts to be hit with it.

But you do have a point. You COULD reason that the stats of the weapon were correct from the start, only the size was wrong. Indeed, that's how I reasoned with the correctly scaled newer axes. So if you feel that Axes as a general rule have been shrunk too much, then maybe I could try a lesser reduction on ALL axes. The important thing if you want to avoid redoing stats is to change all weapons of the same type by the same amount, so their internal "hierarchy" is not upset. Had to do that with the newer swords, since they were clearly too big too, but not as big as the older ones, would like to avoid doing the same with axes.

OK, need more input on this, from you LCJr and anyone else willing to have a look at this. Is it a generalised opinion that axes are too small? How about the new one-handed axes (one-handed battle axe and war axe etc) which have not been shrunk at all?

« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 11:33:55 AM by The Yogi »

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2007, 02:53:59 PM »
Meanwhile, feast your eyes with another update, namely v1.2!

The newer swords are scaled to fit the orignal ones, and stats altered accordingly. Also many other minor tweaks and bugfixes. Both RCM and Vanilla source python files included.

http://www.mbrepository.com/modules/PDdownloads/singlefile.php?cid=6&lid=557

Offline LCJr

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Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2007, 04:41:07 PM »
Unadjusted the size of the new 1H axes looks right to me, assuming they're the type of ax you'd use on horseback.  The Native length stat is completely out of whack though.  They're about the same size as the Native hatchet but were given the reach of the much longer fighting ax.

For the 2H take a look at this http://www.regia.org/warfare/axe.htm  But then again M&B isn't 100% grounded in reality.

Have you had a chance to playtest your resizing much?  How's the AI, especially mounted, handling the reduced sizes?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 04:45:10 PM by LCJr »