Author Topic: Ecomomics in TLD  (Read 8648 times)


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Re: Ecomomics in TLD
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2007, 07:55:54 AM »
i am sorry, i am a forum failure, but not totally, i read the OP's post but none of the others, yet i'm going to respond anyways

for rank points or whatever you were saying, i suggest calling it 'requisition'

you made many points that were nice, but many others that are not important and require no changes, every sees a setting in their own way, i see the game as fine, though i am not totally fluent in tolkien lore... i should have said "in my opinion many of your points do not require changes"

as for the (possibly roleplaying) aspect of gondor/rohan being too noble for betting, slavery, or underground tournaments... it is only 1 town, it is a bandit camp, it should not be changed, if it is important that the 'good' side not participate in such things then they should not go to the fort, just because it's there doesn't mean u have to use it, and just cause it's there doesn't mean the creator is saying it's a huge factor in the middle earth setting (there's not a ratio of 1 to 6 for bandit cities to mordor cities, or w/e # mordor has), to say there isn't a single place where such things occur doesn't seem realistic (i said 'realistic' when talking about a fantasy setting, back to kindergarten for remedial play/pretend lessons...)

as for recruiting in taverns, u have to realise that you are recruiting peasants, so you're more like a mercenary leader than a member of the standing army, however by using influence you could create armies by only buying the experienced troops from lords, but if i remember right this was the worst thing to spend your influence on, due to high cost and it was hard to get influence, all for 1 guy, so this may be something that would have to be changed in the game, it's easy to change, but it really doesn't matter much

sorry about a noob post, but i was pressed for time, i could elaborate later

Offline mtarini

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Re: Ecomomics in TLD
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2007, 09:31:55 AM »
Daimen and Ron: 1st, thanks for sharing your views. I see your points, and most of them make perfect sense, at least in a real world scenario. I still think that the scenario we find in the books is a much more idealized, Good Guys Are Good, settings.

I think we both expressed well our point of view.

Simply put: I say that in this scenario "honour", "sense of duty" are stuff like that are far more important factors shaping what you can and cannot do than mundane money (admitting that money is there at all). If this is true, TLD should better model that, rather than money.
From the modding point of view, this boils down to calling "money" something else (and some other changes, of course).

Let me just add a few random bits:

So [dark gloom] was much of the medieval period in real history. Jousting still has its place.

Hum, I don't agree here: situation is next to desperate. Evil, huge, "unmatched" armies are lousing hell in your land, killing and threatening everybody's very existece. World is coming to an end, literally, and either you despair or you fight back, with the force of disperation. So, I would say, fun in the arena (ultimately, for entertainment of the public) is out of question.

This [that volunteers join your squad] is less realistic to the story than anything you've complained about, [...] Somehow I doubt Denethor has any interest in loaning you Citadel Guards, though.

But, see, you are not just any man, you are a Gondor officer, fulfilling missions from Denethor (or who for him). You are not supposed to accomplish them alone, but rather to lead a little subset of the Gondor army into doing it. When Denethor said to Faramir "go and recapture Osgiliath" he did not mean "alone", or "hire some sword using your money and go do it". It would make sense, even if it does not say so explicitly, that Faramir went to the barracks and told his men: "ok, we need to go on an almost suicidal mission. I will not force you. Who is coming?". I know, I know, there are many differences, but still the system I propose seems a more fitting model (a better approximation) - proud Gondor army men following you for a sense of duty and honour, and out of trust of you as a leader - rather than being unemployed hiredfor money.

Why would you have less 'pull' with your faction after aquiring items from their armoury? So the local Lord allows you to pillage his personal store of weapons for his household troops, and because he allowed you to do such a thing, you now have LESS favour in your faction?

You are right saying that is an approximation. The idea is: spending a (weekly renewed) amount of "authority points" is just a mean to limit how many men you can ask to join you and how much equipment you can request. Supposedly, the character you play would not ask for too much: he would self limit himself (being honourable and fair), and, even if he asked, the officer distributing goods would object to that, as well as the soldiers supposed to follow you. The "rank points" system models just that limit. Details are left un-modelled (how do they object, which set of laws and rules and behaviors takes place), because details not that important. Point is, there is a limit - and it depends on your rank, honour, leadership, past achievements, etc.  It is not that you "have LESS favour", but rather that you took control of enough resources for now, and it does not feel right (to you and to anybody else) to take more, at least for a little while.

Iron is iron

Hum, in the real world, sure. Here in Middle Earth, chances are that evil iron that orks use is not "just iron". I know, it makes little sense in the real world, but we are a world where good stuff is born good, and evil stuff is born evil. Remember, dark creatures almost find the touch of good elven stuff harmful, and orkish crops is unusable for any decent men (and gets burned, rather than stolen). So, even if it is difficult to point a reason why bad iron from a foul ork sword cannot be skavenged from a battlefield and reused to shoe Good horses, the prospect of really doing so is so... out ot the scenario and turning off that we better assume there is some unspecified reason and just not let it happen. Beside, can you really see Eomer collecting orks' elms and taking them around  like Obelix does with Romans'? ;)

And why do you have to pay them? Because people need to eat, furnish their equipment, etc, ad nauseum.

Again, we should not assume that these needs are sated through money. Army does not equal money. Dunno, take ancient Egyptians, or any other more-ancient-than-greek civilization: did they have money? Not at all. Money was not invented yet. Armies? You bet they did. I am not saying Gondor is ancient Egypt. But it is not Rainassence Italy either. (but, you might say, Egyptian soldier where still "paid", with goods: that's the wrong way to see that. Rather, anyone, farmer or soldier or priest, was taken care of - fed, dressed, provided with soap - by the central state, according to their status of course, and they worked full time for this central state). That is just an example. My point is, don't assume a specific economic system just because alternatives are not obvious.

But, you are both right: it is difficult to model enomomy here, and what I propose in not perfect, and not necessarily realistic. OTOH, nothing even assures us that economy is realistic or makes perfect sense in LOTR: for sure it is not the purpose of the book to show or discuss an enonomic system. I am just trying to think of a game system where the few economics aspects that has to be modelled in the game do not collide with the "feel" of being an hero and a leader in the War of the Ring. Actually, now that I think about it, I am not speaking of economy at all, but rather on a fitting motivational system that is based on duty and honor, not money. Would't that be closer to the spirit of the book?

Edit: spellchecks, minor.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 10:52:41 AM by mtarini »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Ecomomics in TLD
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2007, 03:09:31 AM »
I think a lot of people would be in favor of seeing more done with faction points and rank rather than cash (especially related to command-type activities) ... but this requires some re-balance, which requires some re-writing, which requires time to think it through.

It's probably better to let these changes be made a little bit at a time, during testing and re-balance, rather than approaching it as a major change.