Author Topic: General Suggestions  (Read 345657 times)

Offline Ron Losey

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General Suggestions
« on: May 03, 2007, 07:43:46 PM »
Since we don't have a general suggestions thread going, I figured I would start one.

Any suggestions that don't go into specific other areas can go here.


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I'll start things off ... we need tougher bandits.  The sea raiders are pretty formidable, but the others are like butchering sheep.  We need more mounted bandits in the mix, and upgraded armor for thug and bandit class.  Kurosawa's bandits were a LOT tougher than ours - I've been slaughtering these guys by the hundreds, even outnumbered 3 to one or more, with few or no casualties.  (Lost more troops to friendly fire than to the enemy.)  The large numbers of bandits, wandering around looting in the wake of the government collapse, should be among the biggest threats in the game ... not something that local farmers hunt for sport.

Fuji:  Send me all the latest version, and I'll play with it.  You've added a lot of graphics and such lately, so I'm not sure what I can and can't get away with changing.  (Not even sure how old my version of the module system actually is.)

Also, anybody who has any thoughts on how to re-organize the bandits ... I'm open to suggestions.

Offline fujiwara

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2007, 12:44:10 PM »
I agree. The bandits as a group should be a greater threat than they are. My concern about upgraded armor is this: I've re-priced all the weapons and armor. The armor especially is freakin' expensive. I question how a band of roaming bandits could realistically obtain and maintain armor heavier than haraate in quanity without having some sort of financial base. If this were the Ikko Ikki, then yeah, because they formed they own government in places, but aside from looting, bandits don't really have a 'tax base'.

If the balance of the troop mix needs to be adjusted in favor of more mounted bandits and fewer guys on foot, that's doable. Individual troop types could have improved defensive stats (ironskin, athletics, agility). Troop numbers can also be adjusted. Battle strength can also be played around, giving bandits a boost in relative strength during a mission (more of their troops spawn than yours).

The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

DudeWheresMyTank

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2007, 03:37:55 PM »
can we have larger faction patrols as well? the small patrols (max I've seen is size 12 and i'm level 33 now) just get eaten up by the aforementioned bandits. No matter how weak the bandits are, when there are 70 of them vs 12, the 12 lose. I've seen a bandit group with 7 taisho prisoners before. i captured them but they were too expensve to keep around. 1200+ mon a week?! each?!

jush

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2007, 05:01:59 PM »
I second both of these suggestions.  Perhaps you could also increase the number and skill of missile-armed bandits.  As it is, their rocks and shuriken just bounce off of my armor.  Maybe give them more uchine, crossbows and light yumis?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2007, 06:00:08 PM »
Bandits should have trouble maintaining more armor that haraate on a regular basis, but we need a lot more of those.  (The mounted bandits already have better armor.)  That and more horse.  A lot of those fools are out there with nothing but a shirt between them and a tachi ... and a couple of points of ironskin isn't going to save them.

Bandits always have a strong financial base ... they have what they steal.  Governments have to pay for things, bandits do not.

When the government mostly collapses, as it did in the Onin War, the bandits have a PERFECT financial base ... they can steal whatever they want, because nobody has time to stop them.  They have a perfect recruiting base too ... people displaced by fighting are alone, scared and bitter, and will swell the ranks of any group that fights back (including criminal ones).  Think Kurosawa's bandits in "7 Samurai"... don't know who all they killed for their gear, but they were a lot better equipped than some armies.

One of the primary points here is that while the factions were fighting over Kyoto, the rest of the country went to heck.

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We may need to completely re-sort the bandit types, or which types go with which parties, or something.

DudeWheresMyTank

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2007, 12:28:13 AM »
also, there should be less bokken and bo armed enemies...

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2007, 01:09:24 AM »
also, there should be less bokken and bo armed enemies...

When the historically reworked prices come out (next version for first round changes), the logic of bandits using sticks will become apparent.  Swords will be VERY expensive ... sticks and farming tools will be about all most people could afford.

Sheogorath

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2007, 01:58:11 AM »
Doing something about the annoying habit some of the longer spears have of getting stuck in hills would be nice.

Other than that and the bandits, some AI modification would be nice.  Its kind of annoying with youre surrounded by peasants beating you with sticks through each other.
And some way to quit/commmit seppuku/whatever during battle would be nice, for similar situations.  Its rather annoying to get knocked off of ones horse only to be surrounded by guys wielding bokken and having to watch:

X did 0 damage to you
X did 0 damage to you
X did 0 damage to you
X did 0 damage to you
X did 1 damage to you
X did 0 damage to you

For an hour before you finally get knocked out and dragged around for a day.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2007, 02:27:06 AM »
The long spears ... well, M&B wasn't really designed with long spears in mind.  That we can't fix.

Having guys with sticks beat on your armor for a while ... well, that happens.  Normally there's somebody in the group with an axe or something, but if not - well, the same thing happened to some cops in riots over a WTO meeting somewhere a few years ago.  A bunch of angry protesters beat on a couple of them for what looked like forever, unable to really hurt them through all the body armor, but not letting them get up.  That's part of armored combat.  Unfortunately, M&B does not include a surrender button.  (Those cops at the WTO riot tried to surrender too, but nobody was listening.)

Tragically, the AI cannot really be changed within the scope of the mod script.  The closest we came was giving a lot of low-end units some rocks to throw, so they wouldn't always follow your horse around like a bunch of baby ducks.

Don't let them corner you.  If you ride into a whole herd of guys and let them knock you down, then you deserve to get used as a punching bag.

Seriously, these are things that can't be fixed.  We already discussed tougher bandits, i.e. less fools with sticks and more real weapons.

Stonewolf

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2007, 04:18:13 AM »
I'd like to see - if possible - a way to choose whether to accept quests from the town administrators, rather than having the boss of an enemy town send me to the other side of the map to deliver a message, or to the four nearest towns for a couple of stacks of paper.

Also, what about staging the enemies with increasing difficulty the further you move from Kyoto? The rationale: if armies are fighting for control of that area there will be little bandit activity because of the increased military presence. But, the further you move away from the place, the wilder things become. This would allow the new player character to hone his/her skills in a softer zone before taking on increasingly tougher foes as they advanced.

This would also allow quests to be set up to send the player increasingly further abroad, and therefore into more hostile territory.


(Admittedly, I have no idea how the M&B systems work - so none of this may be possible!)

Neophyte

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2007, 04:18:51 AM »
I don't know the details, but you can play with the behaviour of the 'tab'-key, so that if you aren't far enough away from enemies to leave the battle you can be given a menu of options, so you could stick a 'surrender' option in there.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2007, 05:07:17 AM »
I'd like to see - if possible - a way to choose whether to accept quests from the town administrators, rather than having the boss of an enemy town send me to the other side of the map to deliver a message, or to the four nearest towns for a couple of stacks of paper.

Also, what about staging the enemies with increasing difficulty the further you move from Kyoto? The rationale: if armies are fighting for control of that area there will be little bandit activity because of the increased military presence. But, the further you move away from the place, the wilder things become. This would allow the new player character to hone his/her skills in a softer zone before taking on increasingly tougher foes as they advanced.

This would also allow quests to be set up to send the player increasingly further abroad, and therefore into more hostile territory.


(Admittedly, I have no idea how the M&B systems work - so none of this may be possible!)

I'll have to let Fujiwara handle the text question.

As for the foes getting tougher, I would expect the opposite.  I would expect more bandit activity near the center of fighting.  Displaced people and looting are the makings of bandit gangs.  Sporadic fighting among the would-be government groups would result in refugees running around, extremely bitter at the system in general ... and many would find their way into bandit camps looking for "work", as it were.  The strain on the armed forces from fighting their rivals would prevent them from effectively retaliating against these street gangs.

In contrast, the lords of neutral provinces (or those mildly sympathetic to one side but physically too far away to really be involved in the fighting) would continue doing business as usual, which would include both military and economic/social solutions to crime problems within their zones of control.

Chaos breeds chaos ... that's about the long and the short of it.

Stonewolf

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2007, 06:09:46 AM »
You could very well be right, Ron. I was actually trying to suggest a storyline for a sort of area-progression, with enemies gaining in strength as you progress to new areas of the map.

This could still be accomplished if Kyoto was the centre of the fighting and the strength of both armies -- it would just mean having players move towards Kyoto as they increased in strength, rather than moving away from it. Which does make sense in terms of RP character progression too - a merchant, increasing the value of their trade goods by peddling in outlying towns will gradually move their business closer to the 'big city' markets, while a swordsman seeking employment (or challenge) will gravitate towards where the battle rages largest.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2007, 07:10:05 AM »
Actually, Fujiwara has all kinds of storyline-related stuff in his head.  We just haven't got it into the game yet.  He's planning a lot of political moves as quests - diplomacy, espionage, assassination ... all the stuff you associate with Japanese politics.  (Well, the stuff you associate with politics in general, but when it came to espionage and assassination, nobody did it quite like the Japanese.)

However, we were kind of trying to avoid the zone=level thing ... it detracts from the role-play elements.  Most of the bandits already spawn around where things were the hottest - you don't want to tangle with them, then stay out in the less chaotic areas.

I don't know what all he has planned.  A lot of it depends on the limitations of the M&B engine and his patience as a programmer.

But yeah ... I follow you, but we're not that far along yet.  Have to put that thought on the back burner for a while.

DudeWheresMyTank

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Re: General Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2007, 03:35:40 AM »
another suggestion: can we have some sort of place for us to store troops (given that the npc drop off/pick up is bugged)? It should be like how the castle works in native. Perhaps there should be a barracks or something in your home town that you can leave troops in when you're allied with a faction