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Should Red Company field pikeman or glaive-men?

Pikes
Glaives

Author Topic: The Return of Red Company - New mercenary troops, for M&B .808  (Read 33351 times)

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2007, 03:01:03 AM »
Hmmm... If and when I get into balancing things, I hope I can bounce ideas with you.

The problem with plate and RCM is pretty urgent for this mod though. That might more or less require that I do some rough rebalancing before the main quest is ever implemented. Having roving bands of black knights in all but impenetrable armour is all well and good if you don not HAVE to take them on, but with them as quest antagonists, well that's a whole new game then.

Mind you, this is not a problem for me other than regarding the amount of work required to complete the mod. I would actually prefer to do away with full plate and have the dark knights in a dark-hued coat of plates and great helms. I'm just lazy. :)

EDIT: BTW, I notice opinion is leaning heavily towards glaivemen rather than pikemen. Unless that changes before next release, I will change the troops accordingly.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2007, 03:37:00 AM »
If you're going to leave the plate armor in (or even use antagonists in heavy brigandine), your footmen need to go to either awlpikes or halberds - something that will punch holes in armor, even if it's a generally less effective weapon.  That or fewer polearms and more axes or hammers of some variety - the Vikings chose axes for a reason.

Heavy axes and hammers do a number on armor, as do certain crossbows.  The crossbows are generally restricted to footmen (at least the ones heavy enough to do what I'm talking about), but axes still work pretty good from horse.  And of course, couched lance always sends a message, no matter what you're wearing.  Really big swords can be effective against both horse and armored rider, but they have to be BIG swords ... just slashing at them with your 3-pound longsword will likely just make them angry.

Just don't go out there with some kind of saber, or a stick or something, and think you're going to cut down the human tank.  It just won't happen.

(I did allow halberds and other heavy polearms to be used to slash from horse, as the Lucerne Hammer and Bec-de-Corbin were ... but they're so clumsy that you probably don't want to try that.  It took a while to get the speeds tweaked where that would behave right.  The RCM lets you do a few things that you will later find to be a bad idea.)


And yeah, any more balance ideas, I'll try to help.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2007, 03:45:54 AM »
If you're going to leave the plate armor in (or even use antagonists in heavy brigandine), your footmen need to go to either awlpikes or halberds - something that will punch holes in armor, even if it's a generally less effective weapon. 

{...}

(I did allow halberds and other heavy polearms to be used to slash from horse, as the Lucerne Hammer and Bec-de-Corbin were ... but they're so clumsy that you probably don't want to try that.  It took a while to get the speeds tweaked where that would behave right.  The RCM lets you do a few things that you will later find to be a bad idea.)


And yeah, any more balance ideas, I'll try to help.


Halberds? There's halberds in RCM Native? I didn't see them! Otherwise, that would have been my first choice for polearm infantry, rather than pikes.

And thanks!

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2007, 03:52:50 AM »
Try "pole axe" ... halberd, pole axe, same darn thing.

The ones in Native are kind of funny-looking, but use your imagination.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2007, 06:43:26 AM »
OK, this is what I'll do; I'll finish the mod for Native, which was what I intended to do from the outset. It will be technically fully compatible with RCM, although I guess it will be EXTREMELY challenging, given the antagonistic role of the tank-like Dark Knights.

THEN, when v1.0 is out,  I'll do a "deluxe" version especially tailored to RCM and sort out the resulting balance issues. That will be the "directors cut" of "Return of the Red Company", in which I'll put in some changes to the items files, new textures etc.

I'm just afraid I'll end up trying to do graphics stuff (at which I suck), get disgusted and loose momentum and drive.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2007, 07:06:02 AM »
Borrow the graphics.  A lot of good weapon and armor graphics out there, that people will let you use if you give them some credit.  Since you're not aiming for any particular historical period, almost anything will pass if it fills the job.  (Historical mods don't get that luxury.)


Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2007, 07:58:07 AM »
Borrow the graphics.  A lot of good weapon and armor graphics out there, that people will let you use if you give them some credit.  Since you're not aiming for any particular historical period, almost anything will pass if it fills the job.  (Historical mods don't get that luxury.)

I'm sure there is. What i need, however, is some at least partially red armour for company troops. There is a red gambeson, which is great for low-tier troops. There is also a heraldic armour which works for mailed troops. For the armoured classes, however, there isn't much. The current coat of plates is dark grey and would be perfect for the Dark Knights, while the Mail and Plate is blue. But I guess I could change the "Light Mail and Plate" into a functional clone of it. That would solve that problem without any need of retextures, but I would prefer to retexture a few existing models with red, in order to avoid having too many troops looking exactly the same.

I would also like to retexture that lion's shield used as Company Arms in a somewhat redder hue.

Anyway, these are very small things, compared to what is done in major mods. I'll manage, one way or the other.

Pellidon

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2007, 09:22:44 AM »
Try "pole axe" ... halberd, pole axe, same darn thing.
that's not true, a halberd is essentially a spear with an axe blade on it. thrusting is an important part of a halberd, it has a long pointy thing on the end. the native pole axe doesn't have a spike on the end, making it a retarded weapon to use on a horse and making it less effective on foot. but i'm sure there are plenty of halberd models you could use.

about the red armor, it'd be pretty sweet to have retextured versions of the native plate armor with some red markings on it and some consistent logo/coat of arms on all of the armors.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2007, 10:56:54 AM »
I believe I said the pole-axe in Native was kind of funny-looking.  In reality, pretty much all long axes and hammers had some kind of spike, blade, or hook on the tip(s).

Pellidon

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2007, 02:27:47 PM »
i guess that's just a matter of definition. i see halberds more as a type of spear than a type of axe. that's why i see it as a totally different weapon than the pole axe, which is an axe with a really long handle as opposed to a spear with an axe blade added on which is how i think of halberds. i guess it's just a pet peeve of mine, there's only a slight difference i suppose. sorry to waste your time on that.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2007, 06:42:54 PM »
i guess that's just a matter of definition. i see halberds more as a type of spear than a type of axe. that's why i see it as a totally different weapon than the pole axe, which is an axe with a really long handle as opposed to a spear with an axe blade added on which is how i think of halberds. i guess it's just a pet peeve of mine, there's only a slight difference i suppose. sorry to waste your time on that.

Well, it's a valid point ... just not really true by linguistics.  George Silver, "Paradoxes of Defence" 1599, listed the "Halberd, battle axe, and black bill" as heavy weapons that "are, or commonly ought to be, about five or six foot long, and cannot be used much longer because of their weights".  He thought that at least the English "halberds" of 1599 were some kind of heavy axe, so much so that he grouped them together.  He also grouped them together in the section on how to use them, as if he considered "halberd" and "battle axe" to be interchangeable terms.

As far as I can determine from history, most any weapon longer than about five feet needed to be used both as a spear and, unless it was clearly just a spear, some kind of hacking or slicing weapon.  Some were clearly balanced more for one than the other, but that varied from weapon to weapon.

Now, note that the Chinese "halberd" is not a hacking weapon at all, but more of a bladed spear.  In Japan, similar designs were called "kama-yari" - sickle-spear.  However, it seems to be the exception to the rule.

Kolba

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2007, 11:53:35 PM »
Sounds good! Downloading now!

Offline nema

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2007, 02:35:41 AM »
Yogi, please check a little armorers and weapon smiths. Are they as you want? Armorers sell weapons, and weapon smith nothing. Or it is just in my version? ;)

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2007, 02:42:55 AM »
Yogi, please check a little armorers and weapon smiths. Are they as you want? Armorers sell weapons, and weapon smith nothing. Or it is just in my version? ;)

I haven't touched those. The mod just includes troops and conversations files. There should be no way that the shops could've been affected - I think. As mentioned, I'm just starting up with python.

Did anyone else have this problem?

Offline nema

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2007, 02:55:17 AM »
Yogi, please check a little armorers and weapon smiths. Are they as you want? Armorers sell weapons, and weapon smith nothing. Or it is just in my version? ;)

I haven't touched those. The mod just includes troops and conversations files. There should be no way that the shops could've been affected - I think. As mentioned, I'm just starting up with python.

Did anyone else have this problem?