Poll

Should Red Company field pikeman or glaive-men?

Pikes
Glaives

Author Topic: The Return of Red Company - New mercenary troops, for M&B .808  (Read 35487 times)

Offline The Yogi

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    This will be a minor mod of Native, adding only what I think it lacks the most - a final goal.

RETURN OF THE RED COMPANY

THE STORY
In Zendar, two new NPCs can be found; Rostal, a grizzled Sergeant, survivor of the once famous but now defunct mercenary troupe Red Company and his charge Zeer, a bitter young Swordsister who dreams about nothing but revenge.

Adding them to your party will allow you to recruit all sorts of  Farmers and Peasants to form a new Red Company with unique troop types, but they will only do so in exchange for your promise to help them achieve their vengeance on the traitorous Lieutenant who caused the destruction of  the original The Red Company during the Vaegir Rebellion, and who murdered Zeer's father, the Captain of the Company.

In return for his services to the Vaegir cause, the traitor was rewarded with a Barony not far from Tulga. Since then he has gone renegade again, and now all of Calradia, Vaegir and Swadian alike fear the roving Dark Knights of Baron Radogh, Lord of Radoghir Castle!

If you accept, a quest will be added with the goal of taking Radoghir Castle (which will be VERY heavily defended by Dark Knights) and killing the Baron. I'll try to make it so that you won't even be able to consider launching an attack until very late into the game, and if possible (don't know if it is) also that you can weaken the garrisson by killing off groups of Dark Knights. There will certainly be a climactic final battle in the main hall of the Castle, when you get to cross swords with Radogh himself.

TROOP TYPES
Basic types
Recruit
   V
(mounted) Scout/Footman

Infantry
Footman
   V
Swordsman/Halberdier
   V
Mailed Swordsman/Halberdier
   V
Armoured Swordsman/Halberdier

Cavalry
Scout
   V
Horseman
   V
Mailed Horseman/Lancer
   V
Armoured Horseman/Lancer

Archers
Scout
   V
Archer
   V
Mailed Archer
   V
Armoured Archer

EDIT: To be able to get something out ASAP, the first version will only include the NPCs and troops of Red Company, not the quest itself.

DOWNLOAD the latest version (v0.11b)

Progress:
  • Red Company Troop types, including Recruits=> Footmen and (mounted) Scouts, => Three tiers each of Swordsmen, Pikemen, Lancers, Horsemen (Sword & Shield Cav) and Archers for a grand total of 17 new troop types! Done!
  • Conversion of Farmers and peasants to first tier Red Company recruits (lvl 5) through dialouge with Rostal. Done!
  • NPC Rostal Done!
  • Rostal dialogue Done! (although not quest-specific dialouge)
  • NPC Zeer Done!
  • Zeer dialogue Done! (although not quest-specific dialouge)
  • NPC Baron RadoghDone!
  • Baron Radogh dialogue Not Started!
  • Main QuestUnder construction!
  • Revamp of Rhadogir CastleDone!
  • Rhadogir Castle interior scenes Not Started!
  • Linking of fights with Dark Knights with Rhadogir garrisson Not Started!

...and (totally unrelated to the above)...

  • Removed Broadsword from all troop types and replaced with Falchion or Scimitar as appropiate (since they're oversized, ugly, ridiculous monstrosities without historical precedent and I hate them). Done!
  • Native swords are oversized - MIGHT resize them down to be to scale with people (about 80-85% of present size) and alter Reach accordingly. A bastard sword should be about the current length of a standard sword. Done in separate mod!
[/list]
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 04:38:44 AM by The Yogi »

Albino

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2007, 07:49:52 PM »
Sounds great! Is it going to have any new models/textures?

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2007, 03:16:33 PM »
Sounds great! Is it going to have any new models/textures?

Nope. This will be purely a script mod.

EDIT: I'm now wavering on that one. There might be some new armour textures eventually, and maybe also some changes to some existing models (nothing major though).

But there might also be a few sub-quests on the way, like finding a suitable HQ for the Company. The first one will be the Training Camp near Zendar, and later maybe Culmar Castle, all in order to prepare for the final assault on Radoghir Castle.

And maybe some reaction by the Baron... scripted, non-random battles, we'll see if I can manage.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 03:05:27 AM by The Yogi »

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2007, 01:50:31 AM »
I'm adding a poll about the pole-arm infantry of Red Company. I had first envisioned pike-men, but then had a look at the glaive and am now leaning towards that as a more versatile weapon. What do you think?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2007, 01:59:12 AM »
If you're using all Native equipment, you can throw in the RCM for Native for absolutely no effort ... just download it and insert the files. 

Could also be thrown in afterwards, again if all equipment is Native.

If you want to add/change a bunch of items ... well, that can be arranged too.

I agree that Native M&B needs a quest or goal, or at least some standard to measure accomplishment.  I hope you get this working.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2007, 02:55:18 AM »
If you're using all Native equipment, you can throw in the RCM for Native for absolutely no effort ... just download it and insert the files. 

Could also be thrown in afterwards, again if all equipment is Native.

If you want to add/change a bunch of items ... well, that can be arranged too.

I agree that Native M&B needs a quest or goal, or at least some standard to measure accomplishment.  I hope you get this working.


I'm using RCM as I develop the MOD, but unless I decide to have some custom equipment in it, I will not include an items file. That way, you can either use RCM or not, depending on your tastes. I use it myself and love it!

If I end up attaching an items file, it will be based on RCM.

Thanks for your interest!

EDIT: BTW, I'll release a first beta very soon. It will include only the two new NPCs and the Red Company troops available through Rostal, not the quest/quests themselves.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 03:00:12 AM by The Yogi »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2007, 04:43:35 AM »
I'll put an announcement to that effect on the RCM Native thread.  Be sure, with the release, to point this out to would-be players ... not everybody inherently understands the concept of modular design.

Hallequin

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2007, 02:12:31 PM »
Pretty good idea. Good luck.

And if you'll make it with the RCM, please upload a version without it, cause many people dislike it a lot.

Albino

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2007, 05:28:59 PM »
Some people just don't like reality. :-\

Quail

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2007, 05:34:18 PM »
It's up to him if he wants to upload two versions of the mod. Personally I would just do one (with RCM), and tell the people who don't like it, "Tough".

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2007, 07:02:17 PM »
Pretty good idea. Good luck.

And if you'll make it with the RCM, please upload a version without it, cause many people dislike it a lot.

Actually, this is, I think, the first complaint I have heard about the system.  Granted, there was concern by a lot of people before they saw it, but after playing with it, most of those became great fans and supporters of the new model.  (I was skeptical, myself, until the first version was actually playable ... then I was hooked.)

Other than that, I would say the vote has been at least 99% in favor of converting everything in M&B to RCM.  The other 1% generally whine loudly, but if asked, admit that they have never actually played an RCM mod, and that their whining is based on suppositions and, in one case, the belief that all mods which edit weapon statistics were inherently the same.   ???

Who are these "many people"?  I haven't heard from them. :-\

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b out)
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2007, 12:59:53 AM »
I read in the taleworlds forums of some people who objected to RCM on the ground that while it adds realism to those features of medieval combat that are implemented in M&B, the lack of some other such features makes for game imbalances.

For example, they argued that RCM quite correctly makes it impossible to hack through full plate armour with a standard sword - but in real combat, you could use the half sword technique to punch through joints or other weak spots, so your sword would not be useless.

While I think that is a valid point, my experience is that using thrust (which halves armour protection) rather than cut, you CAN punch through full plate with an arming sword, at least when mounted. Maybe some slight rebalance of damage/armour stats would improve on the RCM so that even full black plate can be penetrated by thrusting with your sword - even on foot.

As far as play balance, I might beef up the lowest of the lowest opposition (river pirates) a tiny bit in future versions of the mod (give them some protection and at least a sprinkling of more powerful weapons).

ANYWAY, enough about that. The main thing is that v0.1b is OUT! :green:
http://www.mbrepository.com/modules/PDdownloads/singlefile.php?cid=10&lid=460
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 01:17:14 AM by The Yogi »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2007, 01:54:20 AM »
Wait, that is a valid point for your mod.  The addition of true plate armors (not partial plate with noticeable gaps, but Gothic-type plate with reinforced joints) are unbalancing.  To be realistic, the only ways to damage that stuff with a sword was either to ride by very fast and just try to rattle the target to death by beating on the armor, or to get them completely down and, while two guys stood on them, to use your sword as a pry bar to try to get the armor open.  That is, after all, why swords were not the final solution to weapons design ... nobody would have developed the war hammer if swords would do everything.

And I've tried to jab blades through armor.  It's ineffective as heck.  Hacking on the armor and hoping to bruise the target is usually more reliable.  Sword points glance off of metal as this as auto-body steel, and there is little way to avoid it.  Half-blade grips on the weapon make you feel better, but they don't make the attack any more effective.

The RCM native version was created as a base-line for people wishing to use/experiment with it.  It was not done for game balance, because the Native items were not really balanced to any historical period or style either.  All the actual mods using RCM have changed the items to fit their situation, and history creates the balance.

Using all native items could create balance issues.  If you're expecting to see a lot of plate armor, the people who fight it will need specialized anti-armor weapons, or else a huge advantage in numbers.

I thought the plate armors were unbalancing in native too, but since none of the armors would stop blows as well as your face could absorb them, it did not really matter.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2007, 02:03:32 AM »
Wait, that is a valid point for your mod.  The addition of true plate armors (not partial plate with noticeable gaps, but Gothic-type plate with reinforced joints) are unbalancing.

Oh, I completely agree. Given the overall state of weapons and armour in Native, I don't think full plate really belong there, even though apparently there was already full plate of sorts in use by the time of Agincourt. Still most other armour you can find seems to be of the XI to XIII centuries. Even XIV century stuff is mostly missing.

IF I ever do an items component to the mod, I might consider removing full plate altogether. But then I'd have to make some more textures for the mail and plate armours, so that they do not all look the same, given that they and coat of plates will be the top end armour.

The RCM native version was created as a base-line for people wishing to use/experiment with it.  It was not done for game balance, because the Native items were not really balanced to any historical period or style either.  All the actual mods using RCM have changed the items to fit their situation, and history creates the balance.

Using all native items could create balance issues.  If you're expecting to see a lot of plate armor, the people who fight it will need specialized anti-armor weapons, or else a huge advantage in numbers.

One thing to consider is that the antagonists here will be the Dark Knights, which are all encased in the very best armour there is. This could be a problem for the mod if using RCM. Best solution, it seems to me, would be to remove full plate armour alltogheter. I'm leaning towards that now.




BTW, why is it that different mail armours have so wildly different stats? (This goes for both native and RCM) I can see why a mail hauberk would give protection to the legs and a short mail shirt would not, but otherwise, would not one suit of mail protect pretty much as well as another?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 02:12:30 AM by The Yogi »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The Return of Red Company - A main quest for Native (v0.1b is out!)
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2007, 02:36:30 AM »
Along with legs, you also have arms and neck.  A vest or short-sleeve shirt of maille, or a breastplate of some sort, provides very intermittent protection.  A true hauberk covers the arms down to the gauntlets, and usually the neck (traditionally integrated into the coif).  A blade dragged across one (or an arrow deflected from it or whatever) will likely contact meat somewhere before the attack is finished, while the other will just hit more metal.

Also, maille comes in a wide variety of weights and designs.  Some poetic license was taken in estimating exactly how much maille we were talking about.  I mean, if you're going to make a small vest of maille, you probably want light.  If you're building something head-to-toe, you design for max protective value, since the chance for "light" went out the window long ago.  Weights can realistically vary by 300% or more for a given surface area, based on weight of wire and size of rings - and the protective value corresponds roughly to the weight.  This was not specifically stated, but it was not specifically denied either, so I had to guess.

And for the Native version, since I had no historical basis, I had to just throw things together based on how they were used previously.  (Since I didn't change the troops file.)  A much better set of examples exist in the Holy War beta, if it ever gets finished and released, and I'm working up something for ASLOW that will have a more feasible breakdown of armor weights, values, and deployment.  (ASLOW has been a project, for sure.  Fiction writing is MUCH more complex than history... and ex_otto is a decent writer, but he's not much of a fighter or an armorer.)

Of course, the only two mods with working RCM versions released right now are ONR and Mesoamerica, and both of them have highly specialized item lists.  You almost have to be an expert on Japanese combat to even PLAY Onin-no-Ran.  Neither of these help you much with game balance on what you are doing.