Realistic Combat Model

[Tuckles]

Well, as long as there are pikemen and they know what they're doing, I'm sure horsemen can be handled, but not in large numbers.

[Ron Losey]

I've been playing the RCM in the Mesoamerican mod, playing as the Mexicas side. I play on battle size 40 (crappy computer) so it often happens that the Spanish will send out for example 8 horsemen and 12 infantry per wave vs my 20 infantry and archer combination. It varies of course, and tactics skill tips the numbers more towards my favor, but whenever a decent amount of calvalry shows up against me, I know I have to cut down the horses as quick as I can, before the infantry arrive. I haven't fought PURE cavalry vs infantry battles with the RCM, and the armor disparity between the natives and Spanish might skew it, but my money would be on the cavalry unless the player is an expert horse-slayer or you have very favoreable infantry terrain.

I haven't tried ASLOW since it's very first release, but I figured I'd chip in with my experiance with the RCM. I've honestly only been playing Mesoamerica lately, and a good part of the reason is the RCM. So thanks, Ron, for donating your time, and thanks to anyone else who works on a free mod.

Glad you enjoy it.  Be sure to try out Onin-no-Ran, for some horse-heavy combat that is less one-sided.  (Three more RCM conversions are on the drawing board right now, including ASLOW, but they're just not ready yet.)

The Spanish armor in Mesoamerica puts them at a huge advantage.  The Aztec halberds and 2-handed war clubs are good for cutting down horse, but without decent armor, their shock troops are badly outclassed.  The only thing that saves them at all is their impressive support, particularly the striking power of their skirmishers with atlatl.

In general, missile weapons are the way to break a horse-based force.  Agincourt proved that.

One of the principal uses of horse in combat was to break the enemy's formation - force them to divide their force to deal with the cav, rather than presenting a solid front to the infantry attack.  The AI in M&B seems to do that quite well, probably by accident.

---------------------------

Well, as long as there are pikemen and they know what they're doing, I'm sure horsemen can be handled, but not in large numbers.

Pikes are really only effective against heavy horse if used from tight formation at least six ranks deep.  From loose formation, halberds, greatswords, and other large slashing weapons will prove more effective.

Still, a well-timed volley of arrows or javelins will do a lot more.

[Tuckles]

I see. Well, as long as there are troops that can take out Horsemen, I'm happy then. 

[Ron Losey]

That's one thing about the RCM mods ... nobody is exempt from getting whacked.

[LionNinja]

Including you it seems, i keep getting owned, although that's probably because of my damn out-right refusal to buy troops to save as much money as possible, and food

[Ron Losey]

Including you it seems, i keep getting owned, although that's probably because of my damn out-right refusal to buy troops to save as much money as possible, and food

Yes, including you.  Especially you, if you go charging in like you think only kryptonite can hurt you.

[LionNinja]

Yes, including you.  Especially you, if you go charging in like you think only kryptonite can hurt you.

I eat that for breakfast 

[Ron Losey]

Then you should consider a more wholesome breakfast - maybe you would last longer in a fight.

[Ron Losey]

For everyone who has been keeping up with this, particularly the beta test volunteers:

We hit another setback.  The armor choices were far too one-sided, and the game was not going to be playable at all.  We are removing all plate armors, including partial plate, making the heaviest armors in the game lamellars and brigandine.

Furthermore, we are attempting to get some uniform system of issuing and naming equipment, instead of having swords named in 4 languages.  This should include developing some sense of unity of equipment among the various factions, and a noticeable military philosophy for each group.

This is more of a literary problem than a computer issue at the moment.  How long it will take, well, your guess is as good as mine.  As soon as ex_otto gets me the base material on where we want this to go, I'll start re-writing the items file to match.

I'll put together the first draft before we ask for too much input ... let everybody see what I come up with, and then adjust from there.  That will be better than the random poll approach, "well, I think x should use chain armors and leather, while Y uses lamellar"... "Yeah, well I say give x brigandine and leather scale, and z goes with the chain armors."....  Too many choices that way.  It's not effective.

So if you're waiting, stand by.  This is not going quickly.  Maybe, however, we can take our time and do it right, so we won't have to do it twice.  (If there's anything I hate more than starting over, it's starting over twice.)

[dulahan]

Tests of RCM mods seem to indicate that a properly armed heavy infantry force supported by archers or skirmishers can break a horse-based force with arrows and/or javelins, and/or heavy polearms for the ones that get too close.  It won't be easy, but it can be done.  Hopefully, work on the military philosophies of the various groups will allow this to evolve properly.

I'm a bit late on the draw with this.  But I second it.  In ONR, I prefer a Heavy Infantry/Archer force.  And I tend to defeat cavalry armies with little issue.  I certainly do better with it than with my mounted force.  In part because of the wonky way the AI handles cavalry, to be honest (Infantry listens a LOT better).  But it definately fairs better against infantry too. 

[Ron Losey]

True in actual combat as well - horses are much harder to keep in any kind of formation.

[Tuckles]

A question though, will the troop trees be fixed? Because almost all ASLOW troops end up being mounted in the end.

[Ron Losey]

We're still on items.  Hopefully, yes, troop types and advancement trees will be on the list of things to fix.  Tragically, this project is becoming a hole with no bottom.  Every step that gets fixed is going to create ten more things to do.

My current thinking, if we're not extremely careful, is going to get troops with little or no room to advance.  That's not ALL bad, I guess, but it could make the game tough... reduce the motivation to get your troops experience, if there's only a couple of levels to go through.

After being off-line for a week (...stupid computers...), I finally got an e-mail from ex_otto, specifying details about the various factions that I needed to pair armor to troops.  So, I can start rebuilding the item file ... maybe, if I don't pull out my hair first.

Anyway, yes, all of that is in the works...  Troop trees directed around particular military philosophies of the factions, faction-specific equipment that goes with this, and hopefully a better numeric balance between infantry and horse.

And hopefully it will be done before Earth's sun burns out ... but I wouldn't bet on that.

[Tuckles]

C'mon, I'm sure you guys can finish the mod at least a year before 10 billion years from now, right? 

[Ron Losey]

C'mon, I'm sure you guys can finish the mod at least a year before 10 billion years from now, right? 

Current progress seems to suggest we'll be a few years late on the 10 billion years figure.

But ex-otto built such a fantastic world that I just can't bear to put shoddy armor and weapons distribution into it.  Maybe I'm too picky.