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Author Topic: Realistic Combat Model  (Read 20715 times)

Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2007, 09:50:09 AM »
Well, in hyper realistic games, the numbers are better than your model because for one: it's in an engine that doesn't fully support all forms of attacking and/or using a weapon.

LionNinja

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2007, 09:56:45 AM »
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Non-edged (i.e. a spike) ... not blunt.  A polearm with a BLUNT tip is called a "mace". :-\

I know, it was a brain fart :(

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If you have just been reading on the RCM, you've missed the real glory of it.  Play some of Onin-no-Ran, and/or Mesoamerica.  They're the two that have fully functional RCM versions right now.  (There's also a native retrofit ... but it's more of a developers' resource than a playable mod.)  ONR would be better experience for this, because there's a lot of horse-on-horse combat.  (In Mesoamerica, only the Spanish have horses.)  A "feel" for this is more critical than data, at this point.

Been playing quite a bit of Mesoamerica, love the Arena battles the most, and some of the helmets are insane o;

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The next version of Holy War will be RCM, but it is still in development/restricted beta ... I don't even have a recent version for testing, and I've made a bucket load of changes since the last playable beta.  I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that one.

So far i'm watching all Major Mods except 2 and 2 Minor Mods, i'm really looking forward to Holy War's new release  :)

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My general testing procedure is to just write down any bugs I find, and report them ASAP ... unless they're MY bugs, in which case it's "correct them" ASAP.  If they're mine, sometimes I just make a mental note for later, and don't even jot them down.  For example, my notes for the rough draft consist of one mental note: "all the sword speeds and damage values are screwed up, plus the helmets are not quite right either ... try again."

That sounds like what i do, i'm not doing it wrong then at least :D

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Of course, I'm probably a lot harder on myself than I would be on other people ... even the screwed up values are more accurate than what you normally see in games, movies, or even a lot of would-be historical research.  They're just not up to MY standards yet.


You MUST be hard on yourself, otherwise you cannot expect to be the best, I am completely the same with you when it comes to music, if one note sound out of place i shout a lot try and get the part so it flows nicely, if i don't get it within the time my patience allows i delete the whole song and it's lost into oblivion of infinite

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2007, 10:27:06 AM »
Well, in hyper realistic games, the numbers are better than your model because for one: it's in an engine that doesn't fully support all forms of attacking and/or using a weapon.

All programs operate within the limitations of the engine and the power of the computer.  Generally, things that are hyper-realistic in one aspect do so by cutting corners somewhere else.  Life is like that.

In general, however, there is no way to put every possible move into a computer game, unless the control interface was a full-body sensor suit on a 360 degree treadmill, complete with cables to move your body to simulate such things as falling down.  Short of that, corners will be cut somewhere.

M&B cuts a lot of corners on the details of various moves, but they did a good job of keeping the spirit of combat ... provided you give the engine good numbers to work with.

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Of course, I'm probably a lot harder on myself than I would be on other people ... even the screwed up values are more accurate than what you normally see in games, movies, or even a lot of would-be historical research.  They're just not up to MY standards yet.


You MUST be hard on yourself, otherwise you cannot expect to be the best, I am completely the same with you when it comes to music, if one note sound out of place i shout a lot try and get the part so it flows nicely, if i don't get it within the time my patience allows i delete the whole song and it's lost into oblivion of infinite

My standards on weapons data are such, just because I study these things.  Something that seems pretty close to most people strikes me as wrong, because I know what it should be.  It's like identifying counterfeit money ... a fake that would fool most people is still a fake, and someone who works in a bank all day will pick it out.  Most people never catch a bad note in a song, but a good musician will hear it.  What looks good by Hollywood standards will hit a real swordsman like "Nobody can move a weapon like that as fast as he does."  I'm not a banker, and I'm not a musician ... but I was raised a warrior, from the day I was born. 


Offline ex_ottoyuhr

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2007, 09:53:55 PM »
I'm sorry to say that I've somehow missed this whole thread -- what can I say? My spatial awareness is less than nothing most of the time, and my awareness of forum threads is no exception. :)

However, I think that until now I hadn't fully appreciated the nature of the RCM and its close link to real-world combat... Ron, I suddenly understand why converting this has been such a pain, and given you such a case of writer's block...

Tuckles -- for one thing, I think I've finally surrendered in the war I've been fighting against myself on plate armor. It's just not going to work. Battles in Sivas (*wince* -- apologies to the Turks on the forums. I'll change it soon :P) are really different from those in the south, and much less interesting. Karachine-Ajarine or Aimarine-Ajarine battles are more what I had in mind for ASLOW, I think -- insofar as I had anything in mind. Ron's right in saying that I'm a better writer than I am an armorer...

(I'm also a better haberdasher than I am an armorer. Seven or eight national costumes plus historical antecedents in two weeks of writing -- and then a writeup of military equipment and tactics that alternated between obvious rip-offs of real-world settings, and cases where Ron was, appropriately, rolling his eyes almost out of their sockets.)

But, regardless -- Sivas is now going to lose most of its plate armor next release, in favor of mail and lamellar. (Ron, do you think cuirasses (plus some sort of light arm armor) would evolve in this setting? ... I'm beginning to wonder about these cultures' economic and/or demographic strength, actually, if cuirasses would be used but full plate not... Then again, perhaps it's a matter of the relative practicality of plate and cuirasses on foot, and/or speed of removal of the two? Or just a cultural taste for lighter armor? Honseli are born guerillas, although we don't get much of a sense of that with what I've done in the mod so far...)

The Lunnais are getting more Circassian weapons (shashkas, kindjals) and fewer lances next release -- I don't know how I let that slide so long, even though I was doing a lot of test battles in Lun...

More weapon types in general; crossbows are in; lots and lots of spears. And Tuckles, I agree, I wish there were some way to keep silver weapons. Maybe I'll include werewolves after all... ;)

Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2007, 10:49:59 PM »
I think you meant to add italics to the whole, but that's just me. Anyway on to the point...

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Karachine-Ajarine or Aimarine-Ajarine battles are more what I had in mind for ASLOW

Aren't Ajaria and the Karachen allies?

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Sivas is now going to lose most of its plate armor next release, in favor of mail and lamellar.

I don't see the point, I always though Sivas was like the Swadians of Calradia, fully plated horsemen (albeit slow moving).

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Honseli are born guerillas, although we don't get much of a sense of that with what I've done in the mod so far...

I'd think if you want them to be portrayed as guerrillas, you should give them throwing weapons. (For Guerrilla-esque tactics of hit and run.)

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The Lunnais are getting more Circassian weapons (shashkas, kindjals) and fewer lances next release

Weren't the Lunnais sort of like the Norwegians(?) like in the 9th century?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2007, 05:18:17 AM »
Brigandines are the appropriate heavy armor for a society that has not adopted large trauma plates.  They allow a little more freedom of movement than a full section trauma plate, are much cheaper to build, and (if well designed) still provide reasonably good protection.

The classic example of this is the "Wisby Plate" ... they sewed some random iron/steel plates between some sections of carpet/burlap sacks/whatever they could find, and poof, instant heavy body armor.  Considering how badly they were outclassed in that war, the stuff performed pretty well.  Considering the way they threw it together, it was truly amazing.

Scale armors are also a good alternative to laced lamellar.  The technical differences are noteworthy, but the general effect is the same.  Importantly, the look is different.  It looks kind of Eastern European or something.  (Some parts of Eastern Europe were still using scale armors as late as the 1500's ... where they got themselves into some art with that look.)  Different look with the same effect is always central to this type of writing ... balance plus cultural identity.

The partial plate armors are too heavy for the mod, I agree.  I roughly modeled their numbers off of the Japanese O-yoroi (a classic example of a partial plate armor with lamellar and/or chain) ... if I had used European tournament-type full Gothic plate, it would have been much worse.

A good cultural divider would be for one side to use laced lamellars, while the other used brigandine and/or maille, and a third favored scale armors.  It would look a little like the Crusades - the Arabs used lamellars, while Europe favored heavy maille.  (The Holy War beta has an interesting dynamic going on that one.  The Saracen heavy armors were slightly better, but more of the European troops had armor ... a fair number of the Saracens were fighting with minimal equipment.)  Or, brigandine and scale together, one group uses lamellars and the third heavy maille.  Whatever.

Make a decision on exactly how you want to do this, and we'll throw it together and see how it feels.

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Note to the volunteer beta testers ... we're back to the drawing board again.  It may be a while.

Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2007, 06:25:16 AM »
Oh? Why?

Also, I have a question. Is Scale Armour really made out of scales? Like metal plates that look like snake scales?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2007, 06:50:31 AM »
Scale armor refers to any armor made of small segments attached to a backing material (usually cloth or leather).  This is different from a laced lamellar, where the small pieces are laced to each other.  As for what they look like, they could be round, square, whatever ... but they are overlapped like fish scales.

The scales could be large or small, leather, metal, bone or whatever.  Some of the horse peoples of the Russian steppe used bone scale.  (Some also used bone lamellar ... sometimes it's hard to tell the two apart.)  Bamboo scale was also seen in what is now southern China, Vietnam, and surrounding areas.  Europe generally used metal, at least post-Roman period, although leather scale was more common in ancient Greece. 

The New York Metropolitan Museum of Art has an authentic leather scale vest that dates to the 6th century B.C.  The leather scales are tiny, and there are thousands of them.  Their small size was probably to reduce the habit of hardened leather cracking under impact or continual use, as it is prone to do.

The European steel scale armors saw a high point during the Crusades, and then fell out of favor as heavier brigandines came into play.  They were cheaper than maille to build, but more frustrating to repair.  (All your darn little scales get bent all stupid-looking, and have to be cut loose, hammered back out flat, and sewed back on.)

The Roman "Lorica Plumata" actually used metal scales on a backing material of riveted maille.  Talk about overkill... apparently you couldn't punch a hole in that stuff with a ballista.  Of course, it was too expensive to make, so it was only issued to generals and nobility.

But yeah ... Eastern European scale armor looks just like a fish.

Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2007, 07:21:17 AM »
I see.

I just want to ask, what happened, why scrap everything (Which I assume you mean by "going back to the drawing board")?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2007, 07:55:41 AM »
Well, removing the partial plate armors throws off the whole balance.  Every military unit in the game has to be re-armored, to fit the new balance (as soon as we figure out what that balance is).  Entire military organizations have to be reworked to reflect the change.  All new equipment - chain, scale, and brigandine armors - has to be generated, assigned values, and issued to the appropriate units.

Might not have to scrap "everything" ... but it's pretty much back to the drawing board.

Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2007, 08:53:05 AM »
For the armors that is.

You're taking off ALL plate? Why not give it to top-tier cavalry?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2007, 09:26:30 AM »
For the armors that is.

You're taking off ALL plate? Why not give it to top-tier cavalry?

Short answer ... because it makes a lot of other weapons useless. 

If anybody has plate, then anybody fighting them must have very specialized weapons to do so.  The presence of those specialized weapons (heavy hammers, heavy crossbows, pole-axes) kills the whole "sword fight" feel ... it becomes a slow-motion slug-fest with weapons too heavy for general use.  Swords, bows, and javelins are reduced to a minimally effective status (except for targeting the horse ... but armored horse throws that off too).  Without that specialization of weapons, it would throw off game balance (the heaviest armor would always win).

Since M&B doesn't really let you arm your troops before the fight, specialized equipment for fighting certain targets is infeasible.

Plus, they're heavy and make you slow.  They slow the game down to a crawl, and if you're on foot, it gets real boring real fast.  (You tend to end up on foot a lot, because the horses get clobbered in RCM mods.  We'll have to add some more armored horse.)

Even the partial plate armors we added in this first draft threw off balance rather severely.  They've got to go.  That's all there is to it.

Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2007, 09:33:49 AM »
Not even just the top-tier units? *sigh*


Another question (to ex_ottoyuhr, but you'll prolly know this too, Ron):

Will mounted troops generally be more expensive/rarer?
Because that's a trend that I want seen in an M&B Mod. In all mods, cavalry dominate the battlefield, that's okay, because that's how it really is, but armies with 100% mounted troops? Maybe a small cavalry division, but a whole army(50+ in MnB terms)!? That's just not right.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2007, 09:57:12 AM »
This was in an e-mail I sent to ex_otto today.  We need to work out the exact military philosophies of the various factions, and get the troops more in line with that image.  While we're scrapping the armor is a good time to do this.

The Mongol Horde used pretty much all mounted troops, but it was mostly light cav, minimally armored horse archers (who fared poorly against the Polish heavy horse, as it turned out).  Same with some of the other steppe peoples - Huns, Goths, Vandals.  The early Samurai were mostly mounted and heavily armored, but their numbers were severely restricted by the cost of this convention.  The French heavy horse at Agincourt was massacred for their lack of supporting infantry/archers.  Heck, even the Egyptian chariots didn't fare as well as everyone expected at Carcamesh (605 BC - Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon utterly destroyed the Egyptian army).  Entirely mounted forces have been tried many times in history ... generally with mixed results.

Tests of RCM mods seem to indicate that a properly armed heavy infantry force supported by archers or skirmishers can break a horse-based force with arrows and/or javelins, and/or heavy polearms for the ones that get too close.  It won't be easy, but it can be done.  Hopefully, work on the military philosophies of the various groups will allow this to evolve properly.

Duuvian

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2007, 07:28:17 PM »
I've been playing the RCM in the Mesoamerican mod, playing as the Mexicas side. I play on battle size 40 (crappy computer) so it often happens that the Spanish will send out for example 8 horsemen and 12 infantry per wave vs my 20 infantry and archer combination. It varies of course, and tactics skill tips the numbers more towards my favor, but whenever a decent amount of calvalry shows up against me, I know I have to cut down the horses as quick as I can, before the infantry arrive. I haven't fought PURE cavalry vs infantry battles with the RCM, and the armor disparity between the natives and Spanish might skew it, but my money would be on the cavalry unless the player is an expert horse-slayer or you have very favoreable infantry terrain.

I haven't tried ASLOW since it's very first release, but I figured I'd chip in with my experiance with the RCM. I've honestly only been playing Mesoamerica lately, and a good part of the reason is the RCM. So thanks, Ron, for donating your time, and thanks to anyone else who works on a free mod.