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Author Topic: Realistic Combat Model  (Read 20038 times)

Tuckles

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Realistic Combat Model
« on: April 17, 2007, 03:29:41 AM »
It caught my attention that Ron's making an RC Model for this mod, and it also caught my attention that:

This is the FIRST (major) mod that features both RCM and a full-fantasy setting.
(Ron Losey said it himself.)

I've also noticed that this is the only mod with no historical data to refer to for basis.
(ONR, MesoamericanMOD, Holy War MOD are all historical with a lot of info scattered around the net.)
(The Last Days (if it does have RCM, which I'm pretty sure it will, is based off a very detailed book, with millions of fans doing their share of LARPing and researching.)

So I was thinking all ASLOW-goers can post their suggestions for weapon balance and general-RCM manage[merri(?)]ment.

emperor77

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2007, 03:47:43 AM »
Combos would be nice if possible  :)

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2007, 03:57:32 AM »
You're jumping the gun by a bit, man.

I have been in a long running e-mail conversation with ex_ottoyuhr, and we're working this up.  However, we're like months from anything that could even be publicly reviewed.  We're still trying to figure out exactly what kind of equipment various cultures should use, and how this might interact with the others.  It's slow going, because ex_otto is a good writer but a lousy armorer - so everything takes much longer than it should.  (He explains what he's thinking ... I tell him it would never happen ... he revises it... repeat.)

Anyway, if we ever get down to an .808 beta, I fully intended to get all the comments we could.  Right now, it's just too early to say anything intelligent.  Everything that was in the last version is going out the window (well, excluding some re-used graphics from earlier versions, native, or borrowed from who-knows-where - but all stats will be new).  What is going back in is a world created in ex_otto's head, filtered through what I know about armor and weapons, and as rendered by his concept artist (somebody named Owen, whom I do not know). 

If and when this ever even becomes a rough draft, it will probably go through a round of beta tests as such, just to work out the item data.  At such a time, we will probably be able to use some beta testers - preferably people with a good deal of experience in the RCM mods.  However, that will likely be a while.

So hold that thought until we have a more complete picture to think about.

Meanwhile, either ex_otto or myself will try to keep everybody up-to-date on any progress.

Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2007, 04:10:29 AM »
lol, okay, I see.

Well, good luck then.

Progress reports can go here, then? :D

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2007, 04:42:36 AM »
Progress reports can go here or somewhere ... depending on exactly what kind of progress we're talking about.

-------------------------

Combos would be nice if possible  :)

Combos of what?  Burger and fries?  I don't follow you.

Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2007, 05:22:09 AM »
Progress of the RCM of course.

Oh by the way, since it will take a really long time to get the RCM to work, considering the factors that are in play in ASLOW

I really think that it should be postponed to a further release.

Oh and also; food for though:

Even if it was unused in reality, it doesn't mean it's impossible in a fantasy world, especially high fantasy.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2007, 06:10:18 AM »
The world of ASLOW is not "high fantasy" - it is realistic model.  Weapons and armor that never really existed (or were at least never used together/against each other) must still fit into a specific use or tactical pattern.  Form still follows function.

More significantly, when I say something will not work ... I mean that, in response to a particular stimulus, a given package of counter-measures would be so ineffective that any military would drop them like a dead skunk.  I mean, sabers do nothing to plate armor... if one side wears plate armor, the other side might as well stop issuing sabers, because they will be less effective than a bar of soap in a sock.  Things like that make the difference between good fiction and weak writing technique... and since this has started out as very rich and well-planned fiction, I hope to keep that momentum as long as possible (or at least not be responsible for breaking it).

As for time, the actual RCM statistics will be the easy part ... after we have the writing part figured out.  (I did the rough draft RCM stats for the Holy War beta in under 48 hours.  Critical as they may be, my part of these projects actually involves relatively few man-hours of actual work.)  Getting all of the units, costumes and equipment where they seem reasonable together is the tough part, and the time-consuming part... and the part we're currently working on.  (That work is happening by e-mail ... it will not be visible on the forum.)

The next version will, however, likely be released with a lot of placeholder graphics (from native or whatever) ... until such a time as all necessary unique models are ready.  That's normal procedure for mods around here, and since I doubt that every possible model and texture will be ready immediately, I figure you can count on that one.  (That should speed the next release by a bit.)  The next draft will also likely be released as a beta before all intended items are added/edited ... also common procedure.

Speaking of which ... model and texture people needed.  Three of us on the project right now - ex_otto's writing and code, I'm doing weapons stats/editing the writing (but I'm useless on technical elements like code or models), and somebody named Owen doing concept art.  Some more help would speed the process, just as soon as we get the concept art/descriptions figured out.  (hopefully soon)


Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2007, 08:26:35 AM »
I wasn't saying that ASLOW as high-fantasy, it's pretty darn realistic to me. I was just using the genre as an example.


Oh, I see what you mean. I always thought about silver and if you'd keep it in the mod. I mean, silver isn't the strongest metal in the world, but what I meant was that (just maybe) in the ASLOW universe, silver might be stronger than in the real-world version.

I won't bother then.

I do suggest though that you make a thin tipped Lance, it could be used for piercing armor (though it'd probably cause very minimal damage, unless you poked a lung or something.) Oh and just a few things I noticed:

The Karachen would be awfully weak in RCM.

Light to Medium Armor (in RCM would be about 1~30+ points of armor or something like that, right?)
Bow and Arrow (in RCM, that translates to cutting damage)

and then...

Sabres (more cutting damage)

that spells doom for them against Sivas or Lun.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2007, 09:29:48 AM »
We're talking complete rewrite of all weapons types and applications.  Nothing of the first version will remain as it was, unless by coincidence.  The units and their weapons and armor will likely be totally scrambled from the previous version.  (That was actually being planned before I offered to help.)


I do suggest though that you make a thin tipped Lance, it could be used for piercing armor (though it'd probably cause very minimal damage, unless you poked a lung or something.) Oh and just a few things I noticed:


That would be an awl pike.  They were used, historically, particularly in Europe.  They are included in the RCM Native and Mesoamerica mods.  (Not sure if they make an appearance in the Holy War beta or not - I changed them in the code, but I'm not sure they were ever for sale there.  Wrong period, really - they were mostly 1300's and later.)  Damage is about two-thirds what you get from a more conventional spear point, but it's pierce, so if you're fighting heavy armor it's worth it.  (A halberd I built for my brother a few years ago has an awl spike on the tip - it makes for a pretty impressive show.)  I'm sure we can find some excuse to include some kind of awl pike/awl lance weapons ... there are already plans for anti-armor javelins, although I'm not sure who he plans to give them to.


And as for armor, in the RCM, less than 30 points is light to no armor.  30 up to 60 or 70 is medium (depending on construction and your definition of medium-weight).  Full Gothic tournament plate would go from about 120 up.  (Although tournament plate was entirely too restrictive to actually use in combat.)  Not to worry ... I have the numbers worked out so that they balance pretty well.  All I have to do is figure out what we are using here, and compare it to the numbers for something equivalent as an example.

I think I can make it balance ... once we get the writing part together.  I just don't want to hijack ex_otto's world.  He has a lot of stuff thought out to the detail level of a fair to decent novel ... but the devil is in the details, as the proverb goes.

Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2007, 12:37:38 PM »
lol I see.

An Awlpike was an armor piercing spear? Hell, I didn't know that.

My definition of Medium is padded, leather and cloth with crude plates sewn(or sown(?)) into the fabric.

Also, any luck on getting the arrow to set the damage type? no? darn.

If the javelins are mostly armor piercers, I really suggest you give them to the karachen horsemen, skirmishers and whatnot.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2007, 03:43:13 PM »
An awl-pike is a spear with a non-edged (conical or square cross-section) point.  The logic of a non-edged point is to pierce armor.

Your definition of medium armor would be a scale or brigandine design.  Most scale/brigandine armors had protective qualities at least equal to their weight in maille, or better.  They were often not quite as reliable as good laced lamellars, although this varied greatly with the materials used.  That would likely be a medium armor, yes ... unless the brigandine was just REALLY heavy.

Not all of the javelins were intended to be armor-piercing ... more conventional wide-tip javelins will also be in play.  Javelins are conventionally used by horse skirmishers who are too melee-oriented to really benefit from a bow (i.e. Spanish jinettes), or by light infantry to soften up an enemy before the shock troops hit (i.e. the Roman skirmishers, and the Roman use of the dart and pilum).  Using that rule, I'm sure they can be deployed in convincing locations.

And no, we can't get the arrow to determine the damage type.  Maybe a later version of M&B.

And if you mean "stitched into the fabric", it's "sewn".  "Sown" is like "planted with the hope it will grow", like what you do with carrot seeds in a garden.


Tuckles

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2007, 04:08:15 PM »
@Javelins:

That's why I said MOST  ;)

@Sewn/Sown:

Yeah, I keep getting confused with that. My bad.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2007, 08:34:54 AM »
Since we have this thread going already, general announcements:

Rough draft of the RCM conversion is together ... and although it's already a lot of fun to play, my modeling on some of the weapons sucks.  So it's back to the drawing board for about two dozen items (mostly various swords, and some helmets that were way off).  I hate having to re-do things. 

I've just developed a really bad case of writer's block or something ... I didn't have this much trouble with Holy War or Mesoamerica.  Something about the fictional setting - I just have no frame of reference to work from.  I'll figure it out, but it's going to take a couple of tries longer than originally expected.

Anyway, there should be a version for beta testing soon.  We'll probably need all the help we can get, preferably people who have been keeping up with the RCM mods and know what they're looking for.  We have LionNinja and Tuckles volunteering to beta test so far ... two or three more pairs of eyes on this thing would be nice.  (All bugs are shallow if you put enough eyes on them.)


LionNinja

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2007, 08:46:31 AM »
Yes sometimes having no rules at all can be the hardest to work with

It would be like doing an exam with no instructions given at any point, what the hell do you need? what exam is it? where the hell is my coffee!?

I have been doing quite a bit of reading on RCM, and i'm excited about seeing it in this mod. I've only beta tested a few times including Matrix Online and some gpotato games, my normal approach is a pad of paper and a pen and writing bullet points and bullet bullet points, what does everyone else do?

P.S.

When i read "An awl-pike is a spear with a non-edged" for second i thought it would be a pole with a big square on the end which you throw at enemies faces and break their noses  :green:

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Realistic Combat Model
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2007, 09:41:02 AM »
Non-edged (i.e. a spike) ... not blunt.  A polearm with a BLUNT tip is called a "mace". :-\

If you have just been reading on the RCM, you've missed the real glory of it.  Play some of Onin-no-Ran, and/or Mesoamerica.  They're the two that have fully functional RCM versions right now.  (There's also a native retrofit ... but it's more of a developers' resource than a playable mod.)  ONR would be better experience for this, because there's a lot of horse-on-horse combat.  (In Mesoamerica, only the Spanish have horses.)  A "feel" for this is more critical than data, at this point.

The next version of Holy War will be RCM, but it is still in development/restricted beta ... I don't even have a recent version for testing, and I've made a bucket load of changes since the last playable beta.  I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that one.

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My general testing procedure is to just write down any bugs I find, and report them ASAP ... unless they're MY bugs, in which case it's "correct them" ASAP.  If they're mine, sometimes I just make a mental note for later, and don't even jot them down.  For example, my notes for the rough draft consist of one mental note: "all the sword speeds and damage values are screwed up, plus the helmets are not quite right either ... try again."

Of course, I'm probably a lot harder on myself than I would be on other people ... even the screwed up values are more accurate than what you normally see in games, movies, or even a lot of would-be historical research.  They're just not up to MY standards yet.