Author Topic: Too rich for my blood.  (Read 8829 times)

aGorilla

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Too rich for my blood.
« on: March 27, 2007, 07:01:17 PM »
I'm probably missing something, and I'm open to suggestions/corrections.

I gave up on this mod after playing it for 9 game days.  It seemed that money was _far_ too easy.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who picks through the 'loot' trying to find the most valuable stuff after a battle.  In fact, I tend to start with price minimums that are somewhat based on my enemy (or a quick scan of the loot available).  In most cases, I'll start with something like 'over 50 denars' or 'over 100 denars', with it jumping to 'over 200 denars' for those dark hunter fights.

The problem for me was way too much high value loot.  When you're constantly carrying a full load of 200/400 earings/bracelets, you quickly find yourself geared up to mastadon level (you _have_ to buy the best equipment, just to give the merchant enough cash to buy your bracelets).

This probably belongs in the suggestion thread, but I'm fairly convinced I'm missing something.  Does this 'easy money' change, or become a necessity, later?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 07:09:44 PM »
Money can become more necessary if you're supporting an army.

Otherwise ... well, money comes and goes, but it might or might not save you.  The real point of the mod was to keep your faction alive ... and cash just doesn't help as much as you might think.

The place to burn extra money is on extra horses - they offset your penalties for carrying food and such, and so keep you army's speed up.  Since speed gets really critical, this feature is rather self-explanatory.

Don't get into the RPG thinking that your only objective is the loot.  In this mod, you're part of a war effort.

Offline guspav

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 08:32:50 PM »
yep.. like ron said..money doesn't make you invincible, just rich so you can buy better gear and mantain a massive army

dulahan

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2007, 12:33:52 AM »
Yeah, and again... remember the enemies all have good gear too.  Especially the Spanish.  That's the nature of the Realistic Combat Model.  Money is nice, but it's actually necessary in this mod.  try starting as a Nun or Runner, you might find some of the early battles HARD until you have a decent weapon and suit of armor.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2007, 02:55:22 AM »
Not so much that the enemies have good gear ... it's that poor equipment, when driven into your entrails, is very nearly as painful as good equipment.

That's what is normally lost in "weapon inflation."  Now it's back.

aGorilla

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2007, 09:53:56 PM »
Ok, I did go back, and started as a Runner as suggested.  I'll admit, it doesn't seem _as_ unbalanced as I first thought, but it still feels unbalanced.  That could be just me.

I still think the loot drops are too big, and the horses/weapons are a bit too strong (forgot to bring these up in 1st post).  Contradicting myself, the fact that the weapons can be just plain deadly does help the balance a bit.  There's hardly a fight that I enter where I don't lose a few troops. 

The horses are a bit much.  With maneuverability of 22, it's like riding a panther.  I ended up downgrading to a lame hunter just to get a horse that I felt I could manage.  I may not be able to keep up with the opponents, but at least I know where the hell I am.

btw, I'm not just here to complain.  I complain, because overall, I like the mod.  I like the map, the period, the new armor/weapons, and some of the quests are fantastic (even downright funny).  It's just the balance issue that bugs me.  I wish I could help with that, but I'm quite new to M&B overall, and I'm no python programmer (although I am a programmer of many other languages).

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2007, 11:49:32 PM »
The horse speeds and such are realistic.  (Barrel ponies where I come from maneuver a LOT tighter than that, actually.)  The problem is the rough terrain - trying to ride a horse full-speed over hills and through trees is really absurd like that.  Try riding a little slower.  You don't have to move full-gallop all the time. (Just because you did have to move full-speed in Native ... real horses don't operate this way.)

The weapons damage is based on all kinds of combat statistics, medical data, and test cuts.  If some detail is off, please provide appropriate tests to show that the weapon in question is inaccurate.

The balance is entirely different from Native, and from most other computer games ... that is intentional.  That was the objective of the RCM - to reset game balance closer to real combat.

Phoenix

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2007, 04:06:16 AM »
about losing a few troops every battle I have the opposite problem - in the past 5 battles with 50 against 50 men I've lost just one. My advice is invest in tactics, it really helps a lot  :green:

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2007, 04:26:27 AM »
about losing a few troops every battle I have the opposite problem - in the past 5 battles with 50 against 50 men I've lost just one. My advice is invest in tactics, it really helps a lot  :green:

Also true in real combat.

dulahan

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2007, 11:35:59 AM »
And on the subject of Horses... have you ever rode a trained horse?  I'm talking a real good one, not just someones farm horse or a circus pony that is timid as can be.  I mean a barrel horse, or a pole horse, or a cow horse.

Those are the sorts you'd see in a battle, horses with spirit.  And the horses on M&B finally feel -right- with this model.  Sure some of the graphics don't look great, but a real horse can turn damn near on a dime from a full gallop.  They lean into it.  The point of barrels and poles is to turn as close to the object as possible without knocking it over.  And a well trained horse you just kick and it does the pattern on its own as fast as it can go. 

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2007, 02:39:43 PM »
I don't mind the balance of income as such - but I would prefer that ordinary gear was not very valuable, and that almost all value came from the gold ornaments. I can't imagine that native onyx weapons could have had much value to the Spaniards, however well balanced. A few good ones as curiosities, perhaps, but not coming close to the value of gold.

Of course, I could see that this could become a balance issue for Indian players. Maybe make it so that Spanish traders only buy gold ornaments and not native gear?

Offline guspav

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2007, 02:46:54 PM »
hmm good point, they're obsidian, not onyx btw :D

I think it's possible to lower values while in certain towns, I will have to check it out when I'm back home
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 04:40:24 PM by guspav »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2007, 04:38:28 PM »
Yeah ... onyx wouldn't be worth crud as a weapon.

It was sort of assumed that the merchants buying those weapons were in turn trading them back to other locals.  They probably sent a few back to Spain as novelties, but most would likely be traded for foodstuffs or the like.

Offline guspav

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2007, 04:42:57 PM »
ok it's done, native weapons and armor will only be sold at 20% of their prices in veracruz
likewise I'll make gold stuff less valuable in native cities so money shouldn't come that easily because of that (and that's realistic anyway since gold was second class ornamental stuff to mesoamericans)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 05:25:45 PM by guspav »

aGorilla

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007, 08:02:19 PM »
To save time (and space), I won't quote, I'll just add replies.

@Ron
Re: Horse speed
Yes, you're right.  Native does get you into the habit of always charging.  I played a bit of 'Give me liberty Or Give me Death', and I got into the habit of pretty much trotting around while I reloaded my gun.  I'll see if I can't carry some of that into Mesoamerica.

Re: Weapons damage
I'm not questioning the weapon accuracy (I'm in no position to), think I was just a bit surprised by them.  As I mentioned, I thought they actually helped with the balance issue.

@Phoenix Re: Tactics
I'll take you're advice, but remember, the character in question was only a couple of weeks old (game time).

@dulahan Re: Horses
Nope, I've not ridden any trained horses -- and trust me, the horses are thankful for that ;)  Have been to a couple of horse shows, so yeah, point taken.  I guess I just find them too hard for _me_ to control in a video game -- I keep losing my sense of direction (forgive me, I'm probably older than most players).

@Yogi Re: Money
Good suggestions.  I think that was part of my problem.  It's an economic question I guess.  If there's a ton of gold around, would the natives really find it to be that valuable?  Simple supply and demand, flood the market with anything, and the price will drop.

@guspav Re: Money
Great to see the mod is still in development, and even better to see the developer is open to suggestions :)

dulahan

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2007, 10:46:36 PM »
The Trot & Reload tactic works great.  You'll probably need to stop to aim, but I've been doing that a lot in my recent game.

Phoenix

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2007, 01:08:58 PM »
@Phoenix Re: Tactics
I'll take you're advice, but remember, the character in question was only a couple of weeks old (game time).

so? you can just export your character and then in the text doc of your char choose whatever skills you want. that way I fixed myu problem with having too lfew soldiers by changing my lidership to 10  8)

Offline guspav

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2007, 02:56:06 PM »
so, how's the new economy working out for you? is it better this way?

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2007, 03:05:10 PM »
so, how's the new economy working out for you? is it better this way?
Yeah, it's good. I now rarely bother to pick up anything but the gold and the very finest balanced indian weapons when playing as conquistador. Which is a good thing IMHO.

aGorilla

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2007, 07:52:14 PM »
Sorry for the delayed reply.  Got distracted by Liberty or Death, Onin no ran, and (strangely enough) work ;)

Well, I've given it a couple more shots now.  Both of which I borked pretty seriously (stupid mistakes -- having full inventory when I got the chocolate quest, and by upgrading the wrong attributes for characters).  It still feels a bit too easy to get money, but it's definitely improved.  I've re-read Ron's 1st reply, and I think I need to change my mindset a bit, and give it another go.

I did start to just pick the 'top quality' items (as Yogi mentioned), but somehow, that just doesn't feel normal to me.  I think I'm stuck in RPG/Treadmill mindset.  I'll have to work on that.

I'm not sure that changing the values at Vera Cruz is the right answer.  I guess the logical question is 'who would value what more?'  Part of me thinks that Vera Cruz (Spain's main post no?) _would_ see higher value in certain native items (they're 'exotic'), where the locals wouldn't.  Guess I'm wondering if the reverse wouldn't be a more realistic economic model (ie: low value to the natives, high value in vera cruz, but vera cruz can only take so much - now even the expensive stuff you end up selling dirt cheap to the locals just for the sake of inventory space).  I'm not sure this is an improvement, but it sounds right (in my head anyway).

The above comment applies when you play as a native (not Spanish or Mexican).  Not sure how to work it for the foreign factions, maybe just reverse it again.


Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2007, 08:11:00 PM »
A few obsidian weapons were sent back to Europe as novelties ... but that happened in the first week the explorers were there, as part of the official diplomatic report on what they discovered.  Beyond that, Europe clearly had neither use nor desire to collect neolithic weapons.

The Spanish merchants wanted their business in gold - either coin or bulk.  They didn't want to have to barter with the locals to sell back a bunch of stone weapons.  Especially not when the locals would pay better for metal tools and weapons.  They could maybe sell a few such objects to the various ship crews that rotated through, who would then take them home to show off in Europe - but that's not a very stable market, nor a very lucrative one.  They could never move a ship-load of them... that's for sure.

aGorilla

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2007, 01:05:06 PM »
Sure, prove me wrong with mere logic and facts.  Oh well, I tried.  I'll shut up about it until/unless I can think of something that might improve it.
Thanks for all of your input, and thanks again to guspav for tweaking it a bit.