Author Topic: Too rich for my blood.  (Read 8654 times)

aGorilla

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Too rich for my blood.
« on: March 27, 2007, 07:01:17 PM »
I'm probably missing something, and I'm open to suggestions/corrections.

I gave up on this mod after playing it for 9 game days.  It seemed that money was _far_ too easy.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who picks through the 'loot' trying to find the most valuable stuff after a battle.  In fact, I tend to start with price minimums that are somewhat based on my enemy (or a quick scan of the loot available).  In most cases, I'll start with something like 'over 50 denars' or 'over 100 denars', with it jumping to 'over 200 denars' for those dark hunter fights.

The problem for me was way too much high value loot.  When you're constantly carrying a full load of 200/400 earings/bracelets, you quickly find yourself geared up to mastadon level (you _have_ to buy the best equipment, just to give the merchant enough cash to buy your bracelets).

This probably belongs in the suggestion thread, but I'm fairly convinced I'm missing something.  Does this 'easy money' change, or become a necessity, later?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 07:09:44 PM »
Money can become more necessary if you're supporting an army.

Otherwise ... well, money comes and goes, but it might or might not save you.  The real point of the mod was to keep your faction alive ... and cash just doesn't help as much as you might think.

The place to burn extra money is on extra horses - they offset your penalties for carrying food and such, and so keep you army's speed up.  Since speed gets really critical, this feature is rather self-explanatory.

Don't get into the RPG thinking that your only objective is the loot.  In this mod, you're part of a war effort.

Offline guspav

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 08:32:50 PM »
yep.. like ron said..money doesn't make you invincible, just rich so you can buy better gear and mantain a massive army

dulahan

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2007, 12:33:52 AM »
Yeah, and again... remember the enemies all have good gear too.  Especially the Spanish.  That's the nature of the Realistic Combat Model.  Money is nice, but it's actually necessary in this mod.  try starting as a Nun or Runner, you might find some of the early battles HARD until you have a decent weapon and suit of armor.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2007, 02:55:22 AM »
Not so much that the enemies have good gear ... it's that poor equipment, when driven into your entrails, is very nearly as painful as good equipment.

That's what is normally lost in "weapon inflation."  Now it's back.

aGorilla

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2007, 09:53:56 PM »
Ok, I did go back, and started as a Runner as suggested.  I'll admit, it doesn't seem _as_ unbalanced as I first thought, but it still feels unbalanced.  That could be just me.

I still think the loot drops are too big, and the horses/weapons are a bit too strong (forgot to bring these up in 1st post).  Contradicting myself, the fact that the weapons can be just plain deadly does help the balance a bit.  There's hardly a fight that I enter where I don't lose a few troops. 

The horses are a bit much.  With maneuverability of 22, it's like riding a panther.  I ended up downgrading to a lame hunter just to get a horse that I felt I could manage.  I may not be able to keep up with the opponents, but at least I know where the hell I am.

btw, I'm not just here to complain.  I complain, because overall, I like the mod.  I like the map, the period, the new armor/weapons, and some of the quests are fantastic (even downright funny).  It's just the balance issue that bugs me.  I wish I could help with that, but I'm quite new to M&B overall, and I'm no python programmer (although I am a programmer of many other languages).

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2007, 11:49:32 PM »
The horse speeds and such are realistic.  (Barrel ponies where I come from maneuver a LOT tighter than that, actually.)  The problem is the rough terrain - trying to ride a horse full-speed over hills and through trees is really absurd like that.  Try riding a little slower.  You don't have to move full-gallop all the time. (Just because you did have to move full-speed in Native ... real horses don't operate this way.)

The weapons damage is based on all kinds of combat statistics, medical data, and test cuts.  If some detail is off, please provide appropriate tests to show that the weapon in question is inaccurate.

The balance is entirely different from Native, and from most other computer games ... that is intentional.  That was the objective of the RCM - to reset game balance closer to real combat.

Phoenix

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2007, 04:06:16 AM »
about losing a few troops every battle I have the opposite problem - in the past 5 battles with 50 against 50 men I've lost just one. My advice is invest in tactics, it really helps a lot  :green:

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2007, 04:26:27 AM »
about losing a few troops every battle I have the opposite problem - in the past 5 battles with 50 against 50 men I've lost just one. My advice is invest in tactics, it really helps a lot  :green:

Also true in real combat.

dulahan

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2007, 11:35:59 AM »
And on the subject of Horses... have you ever rode a trained horse?  I'm talking a real good one, not just someones farm horse or a circus pony that is timid as can be.  I mean a barrel horse, or a pole horse, or a cow horse.

Those are the sorts you'd see in a battle, horses with spirit.  And the horses on M&B finally feel -right- with this model.  Sure some of the graphics don't look great, but a real horse can turn damn near on a dime from a full gallop.  They lean into it.  The point of barrels and poles is to turn as close to the object as possible without knocking it over.  And a well trained horse you just kick and it does the pattern on its own as fast as it can go. 

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2007, 02:39:43 PM »
I don't mind the balance of income as such - but I would prefer that ordinary gear was not very valuable, and that almost all value came from the gold ornaments. I can't imagine that native onyx weapons could have had much value to the Spaniards, however well balanced. A few good ones as curiosities, perhaps, but not coming close to the value of gold.

Of course, I could see that this could become a balance issue for Indian players. Maybe make it so that Spanish traders only buy gold ornaments and not native gear?

Offline guspav

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2007, 02:46:54 PM »
hmm good point, they're obsidian, not onyx btw :D

I think it's possible to lower values while in certain towns, I will have to check it out when I'm back home
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 04:40:24 PM by guspav »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2007, 04:38:28 PM »
Yeah ... onyx wouldn't be worth crud as a weapon.

It was sort of assumed that the merchants buying those weapons were in turn trading them back to other locals.  They probably sent a few back to Spain as novelties, but most would likely be traded for foodstuffs or the like.

Offline guspav

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2007, 04:42:57 PM »
ok it's done, native weapons and armor will only be sold at 20% of their prices in veracruz
likewise I'll make gold stuff less valuable in native cities so money shouldn't come that easily because of that (and that's realistic anyway since gold was second class ornamental stuff to mesoamericans)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 05:25:45 PM by guspav »

aGorilla

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Re: Too rich for my blood.
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007, 08:02:19 PM »
To save time (and space), I won't quote, I'll just add replies.

@Ron
Re: Horse speed
Yes, you're right.  Native does get you into the habit of always charging.  I played a bit of 'Give me liberty Or Give me Death', and I got into the habit of pretty much trotting around while I reloaded my gun.  I'll see if I can't carry some of that into Mesoamerica.

Re: Weapons damage
I'm not questioning the weapon accuracy (I'm in no position to), think I was just a bit surprised by them.  As I mentioned, I thought they actually helped with the balance issue.

@Phoenix Re: Tactics
I'll take you're advice, but remember, the character in question was only a couple of weeks old (game time).

@dulahan Re: Horses
Nope, I've not ridden any trained horses -- and trust me, the horses are thankful for that ;)  Have been to a couple of horse shows, so yeah, point taken.  I guess I just find them too hard for _me_ to control in a video game -- I keep losing my sense of direction (forgive me, I'm probably older than most players).

@Yogi Re: Money
Good suggestions.  I think that was part of my problem.  It's an economic question I guess.  If there's a ton of gold around, would the natives really find it to be that valuable?  Simple supply and demand, flood the market with anything, and the price will drop.

@guspav Re: Money
Great to see the mod is still in development, and even better to see the developer is open to suggestions :)