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Author Topic: Reallistic Combat Model for Native  (Read 166159 times)

JeffBag

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2007, 10:49:22 PM »
Ah, it works this time. Thanks again.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2007, 11:32:18 PM »
Minor notes:

Empire Mod now using RCM_Native.

Yogi's realistic weapons sizes project being offered in both Native and RCM stats.

"Cult of the Big Lizard" - experimental mod for developing new modding tricks.  Custom RCM including complete combat and troops balance.  Playable beta to be announced.

Current RCM_Native version IS compatible with .894, but may require a change in the module.ini file to eliminate that annoying warning message about being for an older version.  The annoying warning message won't hurt you.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 11:44:01 PM by Ron Losey »

Sunhawken

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2007, 01:27:57 AM »
Can you add the source to this.

So can have RCM with my new items.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2007, 01:35:31 AM »
Can you add the source to this.

So can have RCM with my new items.

The version on the Repository, as well as that last Filefront link, should have the correct module_items.py file with them.  If they do not, ... well, if they do not, I need to know about it.  Also note changes to the module.ini file ... those changes are necessary as well. 

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2007, 02:49:58 AM »
General announcements, since there have been some questions:

One, melee damage on all weapons in .89x had to be adjusted.  Base damage for certain strikes is no longer 100% of rated, as it was before.  (more like 130%)  The actual damage numbers with the new version should be roughly the same as before, although the rating numbers are lower.  That's just the way the math comes out.


Two, on archery:
M&B .89x has made life very hard for the RCM.  Power draw skill is now seriously over-rated, and includes the damage of both the bow and arrow.  This has forced some extreme measures to keep it within the desired damage range.  Math to follow:

Let us take, for example, a bow (rated PD1, damage 1) and arrow (damage 40) with a total unmodified damage of 41.  At Power draw 4, (12% x 4 = 48%), its base damage is 60.  Against an unarmored target with 45 hit points, that is a 50% chance of a first-shot debilitating hit.  Compare to the NATO study on military gunshot wounds, which said bullets have about a 30% chance of debilitating on the first hit, 90% on the second, and 98% or better on the third ... and that bow is packing a pretty good punch.

At PD 8, the same shot is base damage 80, and since bonus for skills has also been increased, more like 90 if the shooter has any skill to match the PD rating.  That comes out a roughly 99% chance for a first-shot kill and a 50% chance of a first-shot kill against a shirt of maille (armor 45).  That's more like the numbers you see on a whale harpoon or an anti-aircraft gun than an arrow.

Also, higher damage on bows still screws up accuracy.  As much damage as possible must be assigned to the arrow, to prevent this.  Otherwise, all the bows will be more likely to hit your own foot than the enemy.  That is why the bows are 1 and the arrows 40, instead of the other way around.

So before anybody panics or cries about how their bows have been set to one point of damage ... the numbers still more-or-less work out.  Damage on bows is based around having some power draw skill, so they may be a little weak without it.  However, the numbers are still there.  Shoot somebody and find out - they are still quite effective in general (although zero power draw and cheap arrows could hurt you some).

(Actually, low-end arrows in RCM Native may be a couple of points low ... I'll probably get that for the next version.  I may have to lower the power draw requirements on some bows to minimize this effect as well, but not right now.)

Any mods using the RCM Native numbers may want to post this in their threads to prevent confusion.  The math still works, more or less, even if it looks funny.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2007, 12:04:36 AM »
General announcement:

New version of RCM Native (as soon as Fujiwara gets it posted for me).  Includes hit points on horses (set kind of low, initially ... but good for testing, for now), and bow damage set inverse of what would seem logical in order to offset the far-too-large effects of power draw.

Download on the latest version should read "RCM-Native_894_versionB.zip" ... everyone using this in their mods needs to check on this, and make sure they have the new numbers on the bows and arrows.  (Make sure you get both the bows and the arrows - some got one but not the other last time, and it surely won't work out that way.)  Changes to module.ini have not been altered since last version, but this download does include an .894-compatible version of Module.ini.


grailknighthero

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2007, 11:06:12 AM »
Ok I have a question on a bastard sword but it is a "magic" item.  In the game/world/fluff I am getting it from(Warhammer) on a roll of a 6 on a D6 it instantly kills whoever it hit.  In the past I have put the damage rates at about 50 with armors at mostly native stats.  I have been thinking that that is too high for native stats.  What do you suggest.  I know you try to stay away from magic items but this only instantly kills on a 16.66% (? I am not sure if that is right.  Ive never had a probability class before).  What would you suggest because I plan to move to a RCM version for my mod soon.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2007, 06:13:27 PM »
For the "magic" weapons in TLD, I gave them about a 20% bonus over their non-magic counterparts.  However, those were not supposed to represent "magic" in the sense of fire and lightning, but only superior materials or vague mystical properties.

A lot of swords in RCM are more than 50 points damage ... and getting hit with a sword should put most people down, unless they're wearing some significant armor, or unless you just don't hit them solidly.

I would have to see the whole game.  Get a feel for the balance.  Plus a better description of what this weapons is and what it does.

grailknighthero

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2007, 06:59:24 PM »
This weapon goes along the lines of "vague mystical properties."  I havent looked at the RCM stats yet so the 50 was for unmodified native stats.  My items are largely unbalanced now and I was waiting to incorporate a RCM model until I balance the items in my mod.  I am still not ready to release my mod to anyone so I know it is hard for you to come up with a good answer without testing it.  I think Ill base it off what you did with the "magic" items for TLD.  I think Ill move over to a RCM version once Fujiwara gets the latest version up.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2007, 07:22:07 PM »

grailknighthero

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2007, 09:48:21 PM »
Thanks.  Im going to start the conversion now.  Ive been putting off the reorganization and first attempt of balancing my items for too long.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2007, 10:47:30 PM »
When doing balance issues, don't forget that superior items can be superior in other ways.  A blade that does relatively normal or only slightly enhanced damage can be exceptionally light and fast, or a weapon that does utterly massive damage can be tempered by the fact it is slow and has high requirements.

One of the first things most people notice about RCM mods is that weapon speed and reach are much more critical than in Native ... slow weapons are actually slow, and getting hit is bad, so striking first is usually more critical than striking harder.

Drop me a note when you have something together enough to test ... I'll look over those stats.


Offline The Yogi

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2007, 01:45:01 AM »
Your new version came with impeccable timing... I was putting the finishing touches on v1.6 of the RNWS mod. Good thing I started with updating the native stats for all changes. ;) Will have a look on the new stats tonight, when I get back from work.

Once I'm done, you'll get the RCM source file (now pruned to only the relevant entries, for easier copy-pasting into other mods) for review. I'll follow your new version as closely as possible, following the assumption that the stats are right for that kind of weapon, and only the graphical representation of it was off.

One question regarding thrust damage: I notice in the previous version most weapons capable of thrusting had damage set to 35 (cut). While I can see how one point is very much like another when it comes to pushing into flesh, I wonder if another factor should not be taken into account, at least for swords and daggers;

I was thinking of the degree of taper and the length of the weapon. When reading the weapon descriptions on the Albion home page, I noticed how they emphasized "precise point control" for those very stiff, short and pointy swords, and it kind of stands to reason that a short, stiff weapon with a very narrow point would be easier to poke into an unprotected spot (an armpit or wherever)... in short, I wonder if they perhaps shouldn't be given armour-piercing capability, not from actually pushing through the armour but because they are ideally suited for exploiting chinks in it. That's what they were made for, after all.

It could be compensated by giving broader blades higher damage than narrow ones, since a narrow point will a smaller chance of causing an immediately deblitating wound than a broader one on an unproteced person.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 01:49:41 AM by The Yogi »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2007, 02:33:42 AM »
My basic assumption is that a stab wound has a relatively low chance of being immediately debilitating, unless it's just a very scary-looking blade, or exceptionally sharp, or the like.  However, nobody takes more than three or four.  That came out to about 45 points of damage on the .808 scale, and since .89x initial damage goes up to 130% or so of rated, I rounded it to 35 (plus or minus a couple of points) for .89x ...

Certain weapons do have somewhat higher or lower ratings.  The Japanese yari, which combines the shock of getting hit by a spear (a rather heavy object, by any standard of weapon-making) with the properties of a well-designed and very sharp blade, is rated noticeably higher.  The Japanese naginata is a curved blade on a polearm, and got lower stabbing properties, as getting the point driven in seemed less likely than the probability of inflicting long draw-cuts (which are ugly but much less debilitating) as the blade slid past the target.  (On a slashing attack, those two are reversed ... a naginata is a terrifying slashing blade, while the yari is generally a little light to make a decent glaive, in spite of being used that way often.)

However, between two swords, one short and one long, the added weight of the heavier would give similar effects to the added control of the shorter one.  The wounds would look a little different, but the odds of a person going down from such a wound would be similar (i.e. the attacker must be either very strong or very skilled to have a fair chance of putting someone down on the first stab wound, but few can take more than a couple, unless they are very poorly targeted).  Two or three points of difference at most.  The difference would be in speed and reach.

A true narrow point, like a rapier or stiletto, would get a rating like 17 pierce.  That is, it would puncture armor as well as the other blade, but be much less likely to inflict debilitating damage.  (Screwdriver - 12 pierce... you have to stab somebody between four and ten times with a screwdriver before they will quit fighting and lay down.)  Anything over about an inch wide and six inches long with at least one cutting edge, this would not really apply, as shock, blood loss, and damage to nerves and muscles would be significant enough to represent the higher numbers.

I did, however, make some of the point you describe ... a stab with a long, heavy sword really does no more damage than a stab with a good combat knife, while the attack with the sword is MUCH slower and therefore less likely to actually connect with the target.

Too bad M&B can't model a good knife/short sword attack, where you grab the target with your leading hand and hold him in place while making multiple stabs or hacks and/or trying to saw off a limb with long, dragging cuts.  That is where strikes against unprotected areas really come into play, as well as attacks that are much less random and actually directed against vital targets.  Maybe some day, when M&B supports secondary attacks and experts on animation are helping, it will be possible to model such things.

------------------------

The only stat changes from the last version are the bows and arrows.  Everything else should still be good.

As for the resized weapons, whenever you have them, send them to me ... I'll take a look.


Edit:
oh yeah, and hit-points assigned to the horses, to bring the file up to .894 specs.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 03:41:42 AM by Ron Losey »

grailknighthero

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Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2007, 06:30:50 PM »
Ok I have the RCM in my mod now and I am almost speechless.  This has greatly improved my mod.  Thanks for all of the hard work putting the RCM together.

One thing I have noticed though is that the throwing axes could have a little bit longer range.  Just a few feet.  Or maybe it is just because I had 1 power throw and 40 throwing proficiency.  Otherwise everything seems fine so far.

Edit:  I think it was just because I only had power throw 1 and 40 throwing proficiency because my soldiers seem to throw them just fine.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 08:19:16 PM by grailknighthero »