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Author Topic: Historical accuracy  (Read 7749 times)

Offline Jamould

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Historical accuracy
« on: June 09, 2012, 11:16:21 AM »
Hi there, I was wondering how historically accurate the armor are in this thread

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1063.0.html

And also this armor http://mountandblade.nexusmods.com/mods/3666

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Historical accuracy
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 08:39:54 AM »
This reply is a bit late, but better late then never... right?

The first thread has armor that is mediocre, but it's certainly a big improvement over the original strange armor.
Personally, I would avoid it, but I know too much about antique Japanese armor for my good, I once counted the number of mistakes on the armors from Shogun2 Total War and stopped counting at 25... and yes I did see even more mistakes I just stopped counting them, as a result I decided not to play that game, well not just because of the armor, but the utter lack of historical accuracy in general.
The less you know about it, the more you will enjoy it.

The second tread shows much better armor that actually looks like it belongs in the Sengoku Jidai, I recommend that you use that one, in spite of the fact that it does have some little mistakes.
 The things that stand out most would be the arms, as in real life they are not armored on the inner-backside, and then there is the knot used to tie the helmet cord with, the type of knot you see there is only used when displaying the helmet on a stand, as it's just not practical for combat (not tight enough).
And the haidate extend too far to the back of the legs, but hey, this is the best one out there as far as I have seen, it is also important to point out the proper throat-guard, as in this case it is actually fixed to the mask (as it should be), rather then to the chest.
I also really like the kohire (winglets), if you don't know what a kohire is, you can see it in this thread:  http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,1589.15.html  (in one of the last pictures the hand is supporting the kohire.
Seldom have I seen samurai armor with this much accuracy, it even rivals the samurai armor from the Fallout 3 Mothership Zeta DLC.

If I am to rate the armors from both threads then the first would be a 4 out of 10 (a 5 if I am kind), the second would be a 8 out of 10 (I am being kind here, a 7 would be more appropriate, but in spite of the mistakes I think it just looks really good anyway).

Mind you, that "historical accuracy" also depends on the time period.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 08:55:11 AM by Ichimonji Hidetora »
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Offline Jamould

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Re: Historical accuracy
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 11:41:02 AM »
This reply is a bit late, but better late then never... right?

Aye, definitely! :)

Nice picture by the way. Just watched Ran recently, Brilliant film.

Yeah I'm no expert, but to my untrained eye the armor on the body didn't look to bad, but it was the Kabuto that looked the worst to me. It just looked like that cliche western depiction of a Kabuto, very conservative by Japanese standards.

Quote
author=Ichimonji Hidetora link=topic=2803.msg64911#msg64911 date=1341931194]
Personally, I would avoid it, but I know too much about antique Japanese armor for my good, I once counted the number of mistakes on the armors from Shogun2 Total War and stopped counting at 25... and yes I did see even more mistakes I just stopped counting them, as a result I decided not to play that game, well not just because of the armor, but the utter lack of historical accuracy in general.
The less you know about it, the more you will enjoy it.

 :green: Really, you counted? Is Shogun 1 more accurate? I guess Ignorance is bliss   :green:

Yeah, I thought the armor in the second thread looked better as well, only thing is it's a little on the shiny side, but I think that's a modelling/Texturing error, if anything.

If I am to rate the armors from both threads then the first would be a 4 out of 10 (a 5 if I am kind), the second would be a 8 out of 10 (I am being kind here, a 7 would be more appropriate, but in spite of the mistakes I think it just looks really good anyway).

Mind you, that "historical accuracy" also depends on the time period.

Cheers!

Yeah but I think there are some armor out there, that are so inaccurate, they don't fit in any period. Probably the majority of Japanese armor in Mount and Blade mods.

Cheers for the detailed explanation
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 04:05:41 AM by Jamould »

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Historical accuracy
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 03:13:08 AM »
Yes, Ran is one of the best samurai films ever made.

Regarding the first thread, I would like to mention that the red armor is better then the black (gray) one, what makes those armors a complete failure is how the yodare kake (throat guard) is fixed to the chest rather then the mask, it makes the whole thing look silly, it's an unforgivable mistake.
Then there is the classic mistake of the arms and legs that are armored on the backside even though they shouldn't be, the feet look almost like European sabatons rather then Japanese kogake.
Some of the mistakes can obviously be fixed by retexturing them, but some things are model problems and take more work to fix.

Also a commonly seen mistake is that the sode (shoulder guards) are often more curved then the should be (that does depend on the type though), but typical tosei sode are almost flat, I can barely get the top of my finger underneath it if I put a sode on a table (you will see this mistake in Shogun 2 as well).
Another common mistake is the lace, you will often see weird patterns or the infamous X's and traintracks pattern (the lace is not wide enough and will show gaps where they shouldn't, you can often see it on poorly restored antiques or crappy replicas).

I agree with you that most samurai armors for Mount & Blade are inaccurate... very inaccurate, and do not fit any time period.

And yes, I really did count the mistakes on the armors of Shogun 2, the sad thing is, the models are well made and textured, and they got a lot of things right, it's the details that screwed it all up, mismatching armor pieces (sometimes as much as 3 different styles), the ugly arms that had severall mistakes, the worst being the hands with the large loose fitting finger... flaps :P they might as well have added some clown shoes too, to make the picture complete.
I should stop about that, I might ruin the game for you or other people if I were to make a long list.
Shogun 1 is a bit more accurate, but only because it has less content, one thing that also really bothered me about Shogun 2 are the castle walls, they have this ultra long horizontal window or gap in them... seriously!? Why? Just because they screwed up with AI path finding and had to make it so that walls were easy to pass... just silly, and unforgivable.

Hey, if you want, I can answer some of the questions you asked in other (older) threads, not that Ron did a bad job at it, but it can't hurt to get a collectors opinion.
 
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Jamould

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Re: Historical accuracy
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 08:41:30 AM »
Regarding the first thread, I would like to mention that the red armor is better then the black (gray) one, what makes those armors a complete failure is how the yodare kake (throat guard) is fixed to the chest rather then the mask, it makes the whole thing look silly, it's an unforgivable mistake.
Then there is the classic mistake of the arms and legs that are armored on the backside even though they shouldn't be, the feet look almost like European sabatons rather then Japanese kogake.
Some of the mistakes can obviously be fixed by retexturing them, but some things are model problems and take more work to fix.

So if the Throat guard was attached to the Menpo, and you were to ignore the Kote and Suneate. How inaccurate would the armor be then? :D (This might be a dumb question)

one thing that also really bothered me about Shogun 2 are the castle walls, they have this ultra long horizontal window or gap in them... seriously!? Why? Just because they screwed up with AI path finding and had to make it so that walls were easy to pass... just silly, and unforgivable.

Really? That's ridiculous, and lazy to boot.

Hey, if you want, I can answer some of the questions you asked in other (older) threads, not that Ron did a bad job at it, but it can't hurt to get a collectors opinion.

Yeah definitely, that would be great.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 08:44:26 AM by Jamould »

Offline Jamould

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Re: Historical accuracy
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2012, 10:47:13 AM »
Also was wondering what type of armor these would be. I'm guessing Doumaru, from my limited knowledge, couldn't be anymore specific than that

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Historical accuracy
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2012, 08:34:14 AM »
In the first thread in order of appearance:
1: Yokohagi okegawa nimai-do.
2: Byotoji yokohagi okegawa nimai-do (the cuirass is the same as the previous one, the only real difference is in the rivets, in the case of byotoji yokohagi okegawa nimai-do they are clearly visible instead of ground flat as with yokohagi okegawa nimai-do).
3: Also a byotoji yokohagi okegawa nimai-do, but lacquered red (shu urushi nuri  byotoji yokohagi okegawa nimai-do), a black one would be called kuro urushi nuri  byotoji yokohagi okegawa nimai-do, those descriptions omitted the material it's made of, simply put tetsu (iron/steel) or nerigawa (hardened leather) in front of the description, besides that you could also add the words tosei gusoku at the end, but in case of these armor types it would be redundant to do so, as nimai-do are always tosei gusoku.
4: On the third page I could see another byotoji  yokohagi okegawa nimai-do, but this one is an abomination for many reasons :o

The lamellar armor seen in the Nexus would be either a kozane do-maru or a kozane nimai-do, but from what I can see on the provided pictures it misses the details to tell the difference, if by any chance it should have a vertical hinge on the cuirass under the left armpit, then it would be a kozane nimai-do, if not then it's a kozane do-maru.
I'm leaning towards the do-maru.
If you will look at the kusazuri (tassets), the do (the cuirass itself), the sode (shoulder guards), the shikoro (neck guard), and the yodare kake (throat guard), you might notice the difference in lace styles, as well as armor styles (solid pates, scales, and false scales), it's about as mismatched as it could possibly get :P but that could be fixed with a re-texture (the bumpmap would have to be fixed too)..... those simple mistakes, I really wish that the people who make these models/textures would just see that already.
 
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Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Historical accuracy
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2012, 08:43:59 AM »
So if the Throat guard was attached to the Menpo, and you were to ignore the Kote and Suneate. How inaccurate would the armor be then? :D (This might be a dumb question)

It would be a lot more historically correct if the throat guard was attached to the mask, the limbs can be overlooked, the throat guard cannot.
Even so, the armors lost a whole point for the arms, another for the legs, and another for the throat guard, so the armors could have scored as high as a 7 or possibly even an 8.

The wrong throat guard just really bothers me.
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"