Author Topic: The new rebalanced items_kinds1 and troops.txt(Can't think of anything original)  (Read 50483 times)

Offline Rene Korda

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I've formulated my ideas on how to rebalance the troops here - http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,2713.0.html

I don't think I've seen you go into details as to what your method is. Could elaborate a bit?

Offline Arkerless

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Also in reality not all of the ppl wearing mail would have padded as well, new armours were very expensive and many were passed from generations, so only clothes were used under it often too.

This is completely wrong. Mail was far more expensive than padding, and you would never wear mail without a padded jack underneath. If you had ever tried doing that, you would understand why - it's extraordinarily uncomfortable and obviously nonfunctional without the padded jack. In reality, the soldiers might lack mail but never padding - the soldiers that were too poor for good armor would wear just padding, or padding with something cheap thrown on top of it.

Offline Merlkir

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It's entirely possible to wear mail over clothing, not that uncomfortable either. (of course, you'd rather pick a woolen tunic than a linen one, but still..)
Here's my gallery: http://merlkir.deviantart.com/

I'm now painting and drawing commissions. I'll paint portraits, pets, girlfriends, favourite characters..you name it. Send me a PM if interested ;)

Offline GondorKnight

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Also in reality not all of the ppl wearing mail would have padded as well, new armours were very expensive and many were passed from generations, so only clothes were used under it often too.

This is completely wrong. Mail was far more expensive than padding, and you would never wear mail without a padded jack underneath. If you had ever tried doing that, you would understand why - it's extraordinarily uncomfortable and obviously nonfunctional without the padded jack. In reality, the soldiers might lack mail but never padding - the soldiers that were too poor for good armor would wear just padding, or padding with something cheap thrown on top of it.
Like the Gondor Archers (and the whole line of it)?
It seems strange that even the 2nd from top, the Vet Archer still only have padding and the surcoat- but not the mail.
I wonder if the mail would hamper the shooting?

Offline Grothag

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Quote
This is completely wrong. Mail was far more expensive than padding, and you would never wear mail without a padded jack underneath. If you had ever tried doing that, you would understand why - it's extraordinarily uncomfortable and obviously nonfunctional without the padded jack. In reality, the soldiers might lack mail but never padding - the soldiers that were too poor for good armor would wear just padding, or padding with something cheap thrown on top of it.

You haven't read my whole sentance it seems ;) ..... Tell me how many ppl in medieval times, could afford to buy new(heavy) armours on a regular base? Now tell me if your grandfather had this kind of armour(passed to your father etc) and you barely have the funds to make some repairs to the rings of the mail armour(if you have them at all), do you think that the padded armor would be in condition to use(if present at all by this time), bearing in mind that leather is much more succeptable to time changes as well as damage than metal/steel?
Now also think about if you've managed to scavange some mail armour from a battlefield(or from the example above), will you wear this mail in a battle over some thick clothes, or you'll leave it because you don't have padded under it?
Also during early medieval, when armies were composed from non proffesional soldiers + some elite bodyguards of the nobles/commanders, the equipment for most came from the armories of those who gather those men. Do you think that for all mail armours you would have padded too, or only for a few chosen and for the rest either some padded/leather or some mail or nothing at all?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 03:46:00 am by Grothag »

Offline The Yogi

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Grothag, regarding the passing down of armour, you have a point - since mail is resistant to rust because of the way the rings grind against each other, mail did acumulate during the medieval period. Towards the end of it, (XV century) mail was relatively cheap. Not so during the early period (X-XII century).

However, as with other things, you tend to reason rather than read the sources. As been mentioned, padding was worn almost universally while mail, especially early on (I-III crusade), was not - this is simply a known historical fact. Apparently, padded jacks were not that expensive. No amount of reasoning about relative prices can change this. Padding was never a luxury for the elite - it was the basic protection of the common man in the medieval period. There were two common types, one with a leather surface specifically made to be worn without any covering mail (this alone proves it was the more common armour type), and one all of cloth made to be worn underneath. Some modern scholars call the latter kind an aketon, and the former a gambeson but the usage of the words in the source materials is n ot so clear cut.

As for the paddingless mail armour in TLD, I won't debate their existence, I'm sure you're right - but as mentioned before, you do not need to change bow damage to piercing to simulate them, you just need to nerf those armours massively. They'll be next to useless against all types of weapons of war.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 12:44:51 pm by The Yogi »

Offline The Yogi

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Like the Gondor Archers (and the whole line of it)?
It seems strange that even the 2nd from top, the Vet Archer still only have padding and the surcoat- but not the mail.
I wonder if the mail would hamper the shooting?

Rather, I'd assume that it is because the limited number of mail suits would be better used protecting front line infantry and cavalry rather than archers.

Offline GondorKnight

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Of which the Footman got- they are merely T3; the T5 Vet Archer still only have padded armour- but with CAPES!
Capes FTW.

I wonder what capes have do with the protection besides they are really cool.

Offline Grothag

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Grothag, regarding the passing down of armour, you have a point - since mail is resistant to rust because of the way the rings grind against each other, mail did acumulate during the medieval period. Towards the end of it, (XV century) mail was relatively cheap. Not so during the early period (X-XII century).

However, as with other things, you tend to reason rather than read the sources. As been mentioned, padding was worn almost universally while mail, especially early on (I-III crusade), was not - this is simply a known historical fact. Apparently, padded jacks were not that expensive. No amount of reasoning about relative prices can change this. Padding was never a luxury for the elite - it was the basic protection of the common man in the medieval period. There were two common types, one with a leather surface specifically made to be worn without any covering mail (this alone proves it was the more common armour type), and one all of cloth made to be worn underneath. Some modern scholars call the latter kind an aketon, and the former a gambeson but the usage of the words in the source materials is n ot so clear cut.

Don't get me wrong here - i'm not trying to say, that 60-70% of the ppl wearing mail, were using only clothes under it ;) . I'm saying that there are cases, in wich ppl would wear only mail over clothes than with padding, as I think everyone would agree that mail over cloth is much better protection than only cloth...

Quote
As for the paddingless mail armour in TLD, I won't debate their existence, I'm sure you're right - but as mentioned before, you do not need to change bow damage to piercing to simulate them, you just need to nerf those armours massively. They'll be next to useless against all types of weapons of war.

AFAIR they have a diff ~8-12 pts in armour(mail+paded / mail+clothes). Also they can't be nerfed that much, as they'll have similar stats to only paded armour and this will also remove their capability to resist, to some extent, cut dmg.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 01:11:02 am by Grothag »

Offline The Yogi

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Don't get me wrong here - i'm not trying to say, that 60-70% of the ppl wearing mail, were using only clothes under it ;) . I'm saying that there are cases, in wich ppl would wear only mail over clothes than with padding, as I think everyone would agree that mail over cloth is much better protection than only cloth...

I'm sure it would have happened, most likely in cases where someone had only a short time to don their armour and just threw on their hauberk over what they were wearing. But it would have been rare indeed to find a fighting man such equipped in any kind of army, militia or warband that was not a complete improvisation - ie "grab whatever you can find and lets go!".

AFAIR they have a diff ~8-12 pts in armour(mail+paded / mail+clothes). Also they can't be nerfed that much, as they'll have similar stats to only paded armour and this will also remove their capability to resist, to some extent, cut dmg.
Exactly. Not wearing padding under WILL seriously weaken the defence also against cutting damage. Why? Because if you wear no padding, all or most of the kinetic energy of the blow will be transfered to you. Guess how it feels to be hit with a 1 kg steel bar just under a meter long? (A sword). It will be considerably worse than being on the recieving end of a baseball bat, most likely putting you out of action. The unpadded mail might save your life, but it won't keep you in the fight. It will be really useful only against pure slicing damage, like a draw cut.

It is by no means certain that mail+regular clothes offers better protection against typical battle damage than a gambeson without mail, probably the contrary. A gambeson for use without mail would be made with many layers of fabric and thick padding and would offer reasonable protection aganist sword cuts and arrows as well - by no means proof, but there would be hits you'd just shrug off. There is a quote about crusader foot in gambesons only looking like porcupines from Saracen arrows and fighting on regardless. Will see if I can find it. EDIT: I haven't found it.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 04:32:59 pm by The Yogi »

Offline Grothag

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Updated the first post.

Offline Rene Korda

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Don't forget to send the updated link to GA, so he can update the thread with important threads and submods.

already done
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:35:09 am by GetAssista »

Offline Banok

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reading stuff about medievil weapon testing is interesting.... but personally I want my game stats to be balanced based on gameplay, screw painstaking realism. I also find all this serious discussion kind of funny because not only is it a game, but a fantasy game.

anyway I'm eagerly awaiting 3.2 before I will test your stats.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 01:12:13 pm by Banok »

Offline Grothag

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reading stuff about medieval weapon testing is interesting.... but personally I want my game stats to be balanced based on gameplay, screw painstaking realism. I also find all this serious discussion kind of funny because not only is it a game, but a fantasy game.


I fully agree with you. I prefer to forget realism to some extent, concerning some things - for ex. it's better to balance the stats of some weapon, instead to try to make them as realistic as possible and to make that weapon useless, as many aspects from the real life, can't be represented here. But for the things that i can, i try to stick to the realsim.

Also i like to argue about things, that are not very clear, as there is a saying " The truth is born in the dispute". Our conversation IMO, is more for trying to get to the truth and not 100% related to the game and the mod it self, although it can make some impact.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 02:06:38 pm by Grothag »

Offline The Yogi

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reading stuff about medievil weapon testing is interesting.... but personally I want my game stats to be balanced based on gameplay, screw painstaking realism. I also find all this serious discussion kind of funny because not only is it a game, but a fantasy game.

anyway I'm eagerly awaiting 3.2 before I will test your stats.

Well, if realism is not the goal, why bother with a Realistic Combat Model at all? After all, Grothag has tweaked the original RCM and is defending his tweaks based on claims of realism. If he defended them only on their merits for gameplay balance, I wouldn't bother discussing the matter. There is no accounting for tastes.