Author Topic: The new rebalanced items_kinds1 and troops.txt(Can't think of anything original)  (Read 50478 times)

Offline Merlkir

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Yeah, I'd like to stress, for the zillionth time, that RCM is a third party submod, how we make TLD simply does not include thinking about the RCM.
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Offline Rene Korda

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I really don't know why you feel the need to stress that. We all know it's a third party submod and that you're making your own version of equipment and troops. Neither is anybody asking you to make this version compatible with RCM, or something. We're just discussing issues related to RCM and Grothag's submod, maybe we'll do our own balancing of troops, tailored specifically to RCM.

Offline Merlkir

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Neither is anybody asking you to make this version compatible with RCM, or something.

I'm sorry, but don't bullshit me, ok? I could pull a dozen quotes where you and others sigh over the fact RCM has not been embraced by the dev team as the native model.
It's getting on my nerves a bit, that's all. I am also not so fond of your condescending remarks towards our balance. Like, come on, dude, we're right bloody here. We read this stuff.
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Offline Rene Korda

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I could pull a dozen quotes where you and others sigh over the fact RCM has not been embraced by the dev team as the native model.
Please do. But not from the two or three-month old discussion, when these issues were raised. After that, everyone took for granted that you'd be making a more "gamey" version. We talked a couple of times about basing that "gamey" version on RCM for simplicity's sake, but never about supplanting it with RCM.

I am also not so fond of your condescending remarks towards our balance. Like, come on, dude, we're right bloody here. We read this stuff.
I guess it's the non-native language on both sides or something. If you don't take the word "inconsistent" out of context - it can be affronting in some situations, but what I meant was just that the balancing won't be done separately for troops and their equipment, NOT that that balancing will be of low quality or something - I haven't said anything at all on perceived quality of the changes you're making. Only that it probably won't be compatible with RCM.

Offline Merlkir

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It's alright. I read all our forums too much. Do whatcha want with RCM, just leave poor Britn...eeeh, TLD alone!

;)
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Offline The Yogi

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About your quotes - they might be little exaggereted, as it's quite common in the writings then to be used hyperboles or understatements, but even if they're 100% true, there are big diff between the arab bows and the bows used f.e. by cumans, pechenegs, huns, english/welsh etc.

But why do you assume Third Age bows = bows of cumans, pechenegs, huns, english/welsh?

The famous Welsh longbow, the only western european one of the ones you mention, didn't come into more widespread use until the XIII century, at the earliest. It's use was never generalized, except in English hands. Given the general state of equipment and armour of the III age, it would seem Tolkien used an earlier period, say around XI century as technological model for his setting. All in all, the bows used in western Europe during this period would have been far inferior to longbows and eastern bows. And the bows in the quotes, BTW, were not Arab but Seljuk Turkish, i e a central asian mounted steppe people which retained its archery traditions, and most likely, bows far superior to those used in the west at the time.

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There are a lot of ppl nowdays, that try to come up with s'thing, just for the sole purpose to be interesting and to take funds for "research". I prefer to believe the writings of scholars, historians etc. which were alive during that period.


With "a lot of ppl", do you refer to the Royal Armoury of London, which was the institution carrying out these tests? Do they not qualify as scholars to you? Gee, your standards are high. :) If you want to listen to scholars, listen to what they say currently, not what they wrote 20 years ago. Historical works do have a best before date too. As for first hand accounts, I'm afraid they are not on your side of the debate.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 07:00:12 am by The Yogi »

Offline Grothag

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But why do you assume Third Age bows = bows of cumans, pechenegs, huns, english/welsh?


Just came in my mind - there was a thread somewhere, probably in the Third age(the M2:TW mod for LOTR) forum in which was discussed something like this. The idea was that Tolkien's Middle earth represent bigger part of Europe and it's nations. I can't remember everything, but it was s'thing like - Bree and it's surroundings(including the Shire) representing England, Rivandel/Lothlorien/Mirkwood and it's population  - Norway, Sweden, Denmark. Dwarves - Germany, Mordor - Turkey or Russia, etc.

About the bows - they can be anything - the best thing is to look at brf files and decide what is the type of the bow, by the model the devs made ;) .

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The famous Welsh longbow, the only western european one of the ones you mention, didn't come into more widespread use until the XIII century, at the earliest.

Why do you think that all the weapons and armours must represent only their western analogs?

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With "a lot of ppl", do you refer to the Royal Armoury of London, which was the institution carrying out these tests? Do they not qualify as scholars to you? Gee, your standards are high. :)

 :green: Nice one. But no matter who make tests, there is no protection from mistakes - just saying this, not implying anything for the current article ;). I admit i haven't read the whole article, although it is very interesting reading indeed, but i can take some parts of it, as you, and use them to counter you :
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It can be seen from the above examples that mail provided a good defense against arrows. Although there were occasions when arrows penetrated the mail itself, the arrow was often halted by the padding. One should also note the effects of blunt trauma—even if an arrow failed to compromise the mail, it was still possible to cause discomfort to the wearer underneath.

Many of the mail armours in the mod are not combined with padding, but more often with clothes - some sort of tunic or shirt.

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Another source is the Chronicon Colmariense (1398) in which the author states that men at arms wore "...an iron shirt, woven from iron rings, through which no arrow fired from a bow could cause injury." The very need to make this distinction implies that some other types of mail were not as capable at resisting arrows

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The Franciscan friar, John of Plano-Carpini (who was an envoy to the Mongols) described how the Mongols made their arrows: "...according to the Tartars' custom, dip them red-hot into salt water, that they may be strong enough to pierce the enemies' armour."

You see what I mean - too many "ïf's", so that we can take that these armours, especially in the mod, but not only, should be arrow proofed. On the contrary - look at plate, which no one can deny is evolution of the heavy armour, used till 21st century ;) .

P.S. A little late, but thanks for the link - I'll read it for sure.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 08:24:15 am by Grothag »

Offline The Yogi

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I'd disagree about there not being padding in many armours in the mod. It has to be there. Mail without padding would be almost useless, any serious hit would put you out of action. It would be useful only against daggers and slicing cuts. But if there were, they'd have to be modeled with protection values far, far below those of mail & padding armour, thus enabling regular RCM cutting damage arrows to be highly effective against them (as would be swords, spears etc). No need for changing damage type there.

But anyway, it's your mod, and I'd agree that it's performance closely resembles your understanding of the efectiveness of medieval archery - only I belive that understanding to be seriously flawed. I'll stick with regular RCM.

Offline Ettore53

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Grothag  in your submod there are not any armours I suspect you have not last RCM mod items .. I saw some Rohanin leader naked. I ìf I load RCM mod with last patched they have armours.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 01:22:17 am by Ettore53 »

Offline Rene Korda

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It's alright. I read all our forums too much. Do whatcha want with RCM, just leave poor Britn...eeeh, TLD alone!

;)

I understand. Reading idiotic and offensive whining from people who can't find their own ass without a map (like the "you managed to re-skin some models on a third-rate RPG" guy on ModDB) can kind of unsettle a person.

Offline Arkerless

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Let's even look at your archer-infantry example. Why should the archer necessarily have lower melee skills then the infantryman?

All other things being equal he will have less melee skill simply because his training focused elsewhere, if your 'why' is seeking that sort of answer, and because otherwise the infantryman is superfulous, if you are seeking the other kind of answer.

A high level archer with better sword prof than a low level swordsman is ok, but when you are comparing troops at the same tier it doesnt make sense from a realism point of view or a gameplay point of view either. Someone who focuses roughly the same attributes and exertions entirely on melee will be better at it than someone that focuses on archery and uses the sword as a backup. And for gameplay why bother training swordsmen if they arent better at fighting than the archers?


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If he were a specialized trained bowman - maybe. But what if he's a member of militia (say, Elven)? He could be equally trained to use both.

But he should still not be as good at one of them as someone that focuses completely on it. The warden line are generalists - their archery skill should be lower than dedicated archers, their sword skill higher, but not higher than that of a dedicated swordsman.

And again, this is all about making allowances off a baseline and you need to have a baseline defined to do that.

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Neither is anybody asking you to make this version compatible with RCM, or something.

I'm sorry, but don't bullshit me, ok? I could pull a dozen quotes where you and others sigh over the fact RCM has not been embraced by the dev team as the native model.
It's getting on my nerves a bit, that's all. I am also not so fond of your condescending remarks towards our balance. Like, come on, dude, we're right bloody here. We read this stuff.

I dont think anyone is trying to hurt your feelings or in any way belittle the work of you or the other dev staff, Merlkir. Are we supposed to guard our tongues so carefully we cant even talk about what we are doing to avoid offending you?

Obviously if we were happy with the standard TLD game balance we wouldnt be doing the sub mod, but if we werent on the whole completely enchanted with the rest of it we wouldnt be bothering to try and fix it either.

I think the arguments are all done and no need to rehash.


Offline Rene Korda

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And for gameplay why bother training swordsmen if they arent better at fighting than the archers?

Because they have that juicy infantry armor on them?:)

See my point? I'm not against setting different profs, God forbid, but I don't think profs should be thought of as realistically representing actual real-world proficiencies. They should just be tweaked to get the in-game balance right. Which means general overhaul of troops only makes sense if we're completely dissatisfied with the current balance. Otherwise, we should just reset whatever feels wrong to us and leave everything else as it is. I, for one, don't feel that dissatisfied. Some tweaking can be done, sure, but complete overhaul? Way too much work to be worth it, methinks. Think about all those hours of unit vs. unit testing, then even more hours of testing how they all actually work in the game, with formations, party compositions and all. And if that's not done, the whole overhaul becomes just a blind shot.

That said, I'm actually all FOR reworking the troops file for RCM. I just think it should be done based on the current file.

Offline Arkerless

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See my point?

I really do, I keep arguing this one back and forth myself.

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Think about all those hours of unit vs. unit testing, then even more hours of testing how they all actually work in the game, with formations, party compositions and all. And if that's not done, the whole overhaul becomes just a blind shot.

On the other side... well I was balance/standards immortal for a popular mud for some years. Two different incarnations of the same mud, actually. On the first one, I took the approach you are advocating, for those reasons. But I found myself constantly needing this baseline. I made it on an ad-hoc basis, case by case, by looking at similar items/mobiles and comparing them. This was the way it had always been done and the results were more of the same - particular problems that were more visible got attention at various times and things 'near' to them would get looked over and sometimes tweaked in the process, while other issues of the same sort cruised by un-noticed. Over time the database became less, not more, coherent.

Later, with the benefit of hindsight and a fresh start with a new MUD, I started the task by setting a standards document spelling out the baseline and then auditting our entire starting database for conformance. Things really did go much better the second time, in so many ways... when new stuff was built there was always a 'stock' set of stats that could be slapped on it to start with and tweaked further, without ever letting stuff fall back to the traditional RNG profile.

Offline Rene Korda

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Ok, now I get your point. I guess we should create a separate thread and discuss this baseline standard there then. If some consensus among the RCM players active in the forum can be achieved, I guess we could work things out. Tweaking the file itself shouldn't be that time consuming, once the idea behind it is worked out. Perhaps we can even calculate the stats themselves collectively, then give them to one person who'll volunteer to print them into the troops.txt file?

If we'll be doing this, we'll probably have to tweak the prices too (perhaps, make a couple different versions, as there seems to be considerable plurality of thoughts on the subject), to make the submod complete. I wouldn't like to touch the weights, as setting them realistically would be a submod by itself and a simplified approach is already present in  Grothag's version, no need to duplicate it.

Offline Grothag

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Grothag  in your submod there are not any armours I suspect you have not last RCM mod items .. I saw some Rohanin leader naked. I ìf I load RCM mod with last patched they have armours.

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8. Added requirements for all heavier armors and many weapons. Also upped a little the bow and horse requirements too. Bear in mind that without the updated troop.txt, there will be some units and lords with missing equipment.

I couldn't understand your first sentence, but my quote above answered the second ;) .
I'm working on that file right now and latter this week or early in the next week, I'll release the first update where all armours/weapons will be equipped by the lords and troops.

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Ok, now I get your point. I guess we should create a separate thread and discuss this baseline standard there then. If some consensus among the RCM players active in the forum can be achieved, I guess we could work things out. Tweaking the file itself shouldn't be that time consuming, once the idea behind it is worked out. Perhaps we can even calculate the stats themselves collectively, then give them to one person who'll volunteer to print them into the troops.txt file?

I can't understand why would you do this, bearing in mind that my mod is closely related to RCM and I've already started this. My stats are not "all over the place" and there are calculated with rules upon them.
However it's your time and will, so if you make one i'll try it for sure, as I'll try the new items and troops files the devs will make ;) .

+1 for post N40 by Arkerless. Good post mate .

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I'd disagree about there not being padding in many armours in the mod. It has to be there. Mail without padding would be almost useless, any serious hit would put you out of action. It would be useful only against daggers and slicing cuts. But if there were, they'd have to be modeled with protection values far, far below those of mail & padding armour, thus enabling regular RCM cutting damage arrows to be highly effective against them (as would be swords, spears etc). No need for changing damage type there.

I won't get in a sensless disputes - I've no time to screenshot all the armours and post them here - just open the brf's and you'll see it yourself.

Also in reality not all of the ppl wearing mail would have padded as well, new armours were very expensive and many were passed from generations, so only clothes were used under it often too.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 02:09:20 am by Grothag »