Poll

Would like the proposed prices to be used in RCM?

Yes
6 (85.7%)
No
1 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Voting closed: March 12, 2012, 06:36:37 am

Author Topic: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads  (Read 740668 times)

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #525 on: March 23, 2012, 09:27:44 am »
Please share some feedback after you play.

EDIT
The Dwarves were messed up - half of them had padded armor instead of mails. I corrected this. Also, nerfed the orcish skills to those of the same level humans, as the orcs were op. I'd like to request some feedback on the orcs (not Uruks, so preferably test them with Moria or Gundabad), how they feel in combat as enemies and your own troops, as they're still not entirely clear to me from the balancing point of view.

Here's the updated file:
http://www.wupload.com/file/2678631047/New_RCM_test_2.7z
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 12:31:40 pm by Rene Korda »

Offline hayate666

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #526 on: March 24, 2012, 06:25:46 am »
I've been testing the Moria orcs for a while now and I've noticed that I need overwhelming odds to win against anything really. You really need a high number of wargs. Orcs, especially at the lower tier, don't seem to have any troops that can take arrow fire for a while before dying, so it's a matter of attrition by overwhelming numbers. 3 or 4 to 1 odds. Which is like the books I guess.

The problem to me seems to be in logistics. I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect the player to be able to gather a large amount of troops like that and train them to a level they'll be effective at. Especially against Lothlorien and Rivendell I'm unsure if there's even a possibility of ever winning a large battle. Against the Lothlorien patrol I tested I estimate that I need about 150 to 200 orcs to beat them.

Adventures of the Moria Orcs

Lothlorien patrol
56 vs 50
56 dead / 7 dead
notes: absolutely got annihilated by them. Arrows took out half of my troops before the fight even started. Wargs made the only kills.

56 vs 25 
56 dead / 7 dead
Notes: still got annihilated. Of note was that it took about 6 orcs swarming a single swords-elf to take it down. Even then the elf was able to take out 2.

56 vs 20
56 dead / 12 dead
Notes: Arrows cut down my troops like flies. After that it's a rather easy cleanup for the swords-elf. As soon as my wargs go down, I go down. It seems one elf arrow is able to strike down an orc most of the time. Two at the very most.

Rivendell
56 top tier orcs vs 7 Rivendell scouts
0 orcs died vs 7 Rivendell scouts died
Notes: Easy win. Wargs and archers cut them down. Rivendell scouts are very lightly armored.

Dunedain
56 top tier orcs vs 36 Dunedain patrol
31 died vs 36 died
Notes: Wargs are really important here. Archers are the biggest problem once again. Cavalry is pretty tough, but very doable once you swarm them down. Dunedain infantry gets cut down 3 vs 1.



« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 06:27:17 am by hayate666 »

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #527 on: March 24, 2012, 11:39:57 am »
Thanks, hayate, this is exactly the type of feedback I need!

I've done some of my own testing of Moria and I was able to defeat those 50-elf patrols at about 2-to-1 odds with all troops being of 3-4 tier (that's roughly Leadership 6 or 7 party) with losses of around 35 orcs, mostly wolfriders. The army composition was something like 25% archers, 25% wolfriders, 50% infantry. Could you give me your approximate party compositions and troop tiers, the ones used against the Lorien patrols?

If it's possible, could you also test some larger Moria lords vs. Elven lords battles? Maybe lure some elven army to your own, or just use Ctrl+Space to fast-scroll time until they start a battle themselves. Moria lords vs. elven patrols (like the 50-elf ones you fought) would be nice too.

The problem to me seems to be in logistics. I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect the player to be able to gather a large amount of troops like that and train them to a level they'll be effective at. Especially against Lothlorien and Rivendell I'm unsure if there's even a possibility of ever winning a large battle.

Logistics is a big problem for Moria, that's true. Though there are certain factors working in their favor: the orcs are very easy to train and a high-intellect NPC is available for hire at Moria Gates, so he can be turned into a trainer (and you can always boost him with the training bonus from you character, or do it all vice verca), the wolfriders are very efficient in drawing the archers' attention, which offers some great tactical opportunities and the top-tier orcs are quite good at melee and not bad at range either. The wolfriders are third-tier troops and orcs, so a high-level trainer should be able to produce them even without training troops through combat. And this issue is so big only for Moria - Gundabad and Dol Guldur can train their troops at leisure on Beornings, so I'm pretty sure this logistics problem can be overcome with them. Perhaps Moria is doable too?

Also, Lorien troops are the toughest among the elves - but, perhaps, Rivindell is easier? After all, they're the first main enemy for Moria. We really need some more testing here. And I'll test the elves, so that we know how it feels from their side.

P.S. Please make sure you're using the latest test files!
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 11:42:17 am by Rene Korda »

Offline Annuinir Thanguridhren

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #528 on: March 24, 2012, 01:31:30 pm »
Sorry I was going to do some testing for the elves but my internet has been down so I can't download the newest files

Edit: I'm posting from my phone
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 01:33:45 pm by Annuinir Thanguridhren »

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #529 on: March 24, 2012, 03:41:56 pm »
Well, the elves are definitely OP, as far as I can see. I'll nerf them down to +2 Athletics, +1 to all primary stats (except Athletics),+1 to all secondary stats starting with tier 2. The file'll be up for download to tomorrow.

Offline hayate666

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #530 on: March 24, 2012, 05:09:55 pm »
First win against a Lothlorien patrol!

77 top tier (!)  Moria orcs versus 50 Lothlorien scouts
Troop mix: 24 Bolg Clan Warg Riders, 28 Fell Goblins 25 Fell Goblin archers.

Results: 42 died. 19 Warg Riders, 16 archers and 7 melee goblins died.

Notes: Every single Elf troop is deadly. The archers weren't the biggest problem this time, because as soon they were out of arrows they started dying. The swords-elves however were a different story. They cut down Warg Riders as they charge through them, allowing their archers to live a lot longer and become a real pain. Their infantry doesn't seem to die to my archers and only started dying after they engaged my own infantry. They got charged in the back by 19 riderless wargs which messed up their focus so they got chopped up pretty quickly. That was only after they walked up to and killed every archer that was present at the battle.


The main problem after this battle isn't that I lost a lot of troops, it's mostly that after every fight I'm in no shape to continue campaigning and need to wait until I can replenish everything. Also, with lower tier troops this battle was not winnable at all. Surgery is really important to balance this out.

After surgery I got 51 troops remaining out of 77. This is pretty acceptable.

==============================================================================
Elves are definitely on the OP side of things, but at high levels they are pretty much supposed to be superhuman. I hope this can be balanced correctly without ruining the Elf player experience.

Somehow I experience Mirkwood as pretty balanced Elves. I really needed to get shock infantry from another race, because my own infantry and archers weren't quite enough to stop a horde of goblins charging at me without losses. The armor of the Mirkwood elves seems to be just a bit weaker then that of Lorien and you really notice the difference in their melee infantry line.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 05:23:51 pm by hayate666 »

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #531 on: March 24, 2012, 05:39:13 pm »
The nerf isn't large, but it might just weaken them enough to make the situation less of a one-way game. I think Mirkwood will be balanced after this and, hopefully, Rivendell will be too (at least, much of their troops are Dunedain, that are significantly weaker then the elves). If Lorien will continue to be OP, I'll start stripping their archers of heavy armor tier-by-tier.

Well, at least everything else seems to be fine. After we do the elves, I'll start changing the prices. This'll probably take a couple of days, so there'll be time for people to test the final version a bit before it gets released.

EDIT
Here are the new files - http://www.wupload.com/file/2679561867/New_RCM_test_3.2.7z
Please don't forget to provide feedback after you play with them.

EDIT 2
The link has been updated with some changes to Mirkwood.

EDIT 3
One more update of the link. I've finally found what made the Thranduil Royal Spearmen not use their shields - their spears were erroneously marked as two-handed. This is now corrected and both of the Mirkwood top-tier melee units are usable on the battlefield.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 02:05:09 pm by Rene Korda »

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #532 on: March 26, 2012, 12:57:56 am »
I realize it is hard to achieve proper balance between the factions in TLD. But just for the record, if true to the books, 77 orcs of any kind against 50 elves of any kind should end up as an unmitigated slaughter of orcs. If the elves take any casualties at all it would be, I guess from some stray arrow and bad luck.

77 against 5, then yes, the elves would go down, taking three or four times their number of orcs with them.

Of course, for that to be fun and playable in M&B, the elves would have to be 5-10 where the orcs are 50-100. And that would screw up autocalced battles.

It just grates on me when players harp about OP elves, when in fact they have, in the interest of playability, been nerfed down by an order of magnitude at least.

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #533 on: March 26, 2012, 01:41:57 am »
No, not of any kind. Heavily armored orcs were quite lethal to the lightly armored Ossiriand elves in the Silmarillion. If the elves are Noldor-style heavily armored troops, then yes, the 77 vs. 50 would be a slaughter and it actually is that way in the game too.

But this kind of discussion is pure fantasy anyway, neither the elves nor the orcs are uniform, they differ in individual quality as fighters, they differ in armament, in unit cohesion. Then the tactical situation comes in - do the orcs manage to ambush the elves, do they manage to get close without taking heavy casualties from archer fire, how many of the elves are archers etc. Then comes the non-linear effect of numerical superiority - the more we increase one force or the other, the easier it would be for that force to overwhelm its opponent and the less casualties it  will take, if it's able to properly utilize its numerical advantage. So, 500 orcs attacking a column of elves from behind cover would win with very light casualties as the elves will be overrun. The  same force attacking 50 elven archers head-on, or elven heavy infantry in tight formation, would take serious casualties before winning (and if the orcs are of lower quality and the elves are a heavy infantry unit with good cohesion, the elves will probably win - BTW, this'll happen in TLD too if you pit a huge force of snagas against the higher-tier elven infantry).

Game-wise, the autocalc puts limits on what the party composition can  be, unfortunately. Calibrating it with levels has limits too and that's the only way to calibrate it without affecting tactical combat. Still, I can affect the realism, general lore correspondence and balance somewhat by changing troop armor, which has a large effect on combat results.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 01:52:14 am by Rene Korda »

Offline hayate666

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #534 on: March 26, 2012, 06:40:14 am »
The reason I won that 77 vs 50 battle was that riderless Wargs kept messing up the aim of the elves so my troops could cut them down in the back. Had that not happened they would have still killed me with little loss on their side. But I understand what Yogi is getting at.

Yet it seems to me that Elves shouldn't be all that secure in being able to withstand Sauron. Why would the war in the North even be a problem if they can easily take anything Sauron can throw at them? There should be a certain tension within the limits of this game engine so it isn't a complete cakewalk for an Elven player.

Perhaps this issue can be handled by giving an orc player a huge bonus to leadership, so you're actually able to field 200 orcs against an elven patrol? As I said, logistics is the biggest problem for Moria. If I can get 200 or 300 orcs, pay them and feed them then I won't have a problem with elves being a lot stronger than me.

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #535 on: March 26, 2012, 08:31:45 am »
I'm not really worried about elven players with current stats - leveling those troops up and keeping them alive will be enough of a challenge. The elven campaign won't be as challenging as, for example, Moria one, but it will still be fun to play and give enough challenge to the player.

What I want to do is make the campaign playable for Gundabad and, especially, Moria. Obviously, this shouldn't come at the expense of realism or lore, that's why we're trying to find proper balance here.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #536 on: March 26, 2012, 10:34:11 am »
Yes you're right of course, Rene. There are tactical situations in which 77 orcs, or even a lesser number, could conceivably wipe out a force of 50 elves with few or no casualties. And of course it should matter if they are heavily armoured black Uruks or sniveling snagas.

On the other hand, the current tier system is not a good representation of elves. There would be virtually no low-tier elves. The vast majority of them are hundreds of years old if not thousands and have been practising their combat skills for much of that time. From a representation standpoint, the lowest tier elf should be equal to the highest tier human, and perhaps only rise one or two tiers in the whole game. But again, how fun would that be for the elven player?

I think you have struck a good balance between playability, lore and realism.

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #537 on: March 26, 2012, 10:48:40 am »
I think you have struck a good balance between playability, lore and realism.

Thanks!

I would really appreciate a little feedback on elves with new stats, from the point of view of evil side factions (the elves themselves feel ok to play with). I'll be testing them myself today, but additional opinions would be nice as this is a delicate problem.

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #538 on: March 26, 2012, 02:40:39 pm »
Well, guys, this is about all I can do. Nerfing the elves further would screw up the lore, while boosting the orcs would screw up the balance. I don't know if Moria can be successfully played, perhaps some resourceful and daring player will start their campaign and share the experience with us.

The test files you have are the latest. It'll take me a couple of days to finish the prices and then I'll release the updated RCM. It would be nice if you did some testing during this time, so that campaigns are not messed up if I'd have to modify the already released version.

Offline hayate666

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads
« Reply #539 on: March 27, 2012, 03:22:49 pm »
Combat feels a lot better now. Elves are still able to kill me easily, but if I swarm them with warg and melee infantry they tend to die. Not really much to add besides that. It just works.  :)