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Would like the proposed prices to be used in RCM?

Yes
6 (85.7%)
No
1 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Voting closed: March 12, 2012, 06:36:37 am

Author Topic: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads  (Read 740647 times)

Offline Grothag

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #390 on: March 02, 2012, 09:27:47 am »
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I've formulated my ideas on how to rebalance the troops here - http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,2713.0.html

I don't think I've seen you go into details as to what your method is. Could elaborate a bit?

Quote
1. Certain set point of reference. I.e. "a 3-rd tier evil human melee troop has strength 15" or something like that.
2. Dispersion. How high and how low we can set the parameter, i.e. "strength can be as low as 5 for lowly snaga and as high as 30 for elven lord".
3. Simple incrementing rules. Preferably, these should be tied to a level plus some factions-specific tweak should be applied, to fine-tune the faction differences.

1. A must have, with little variations for a flavour IMO - ex. from my troops.txt - Dale Warior 19 18 7 6 lvl15
Dale Bowman 17 20 7 6 lvl15; Rhun Horse Archer 19 18 7 6 lvl15 Rhun Swift Horseman 20 17 7 6 lvl15 - diff for 1-2 points, just not to make everyone indentical and to imply some are trained in use of certain ablities more and other in diff ones.
I consider the same race equal(speaking for Attributes) no mater the faction, but with little diff for flavour here and there as i said earlier. So all humans no matter if they're from Gondor, Rohan, Rhun etc. have equal stats - there will be bigger diff in their Proff and Skills and their equipment ofc - which is quite enough to make them distinkt enough IMO.
2. The same, but with racial bonuses applied - ex. men Str 16-18 lowest(lvl5), 23-24 for the highest tiers (no diff between 30-40 lvl humans in Str and Agi - only in skills/proff/equipment and in some cases Cha and Int (as most of them are some sort of commanders)
Dwarves Str  ~25 lower - 34-35 for highest tiers.
Haven't done elves still but they'll have ~ the same Str as Humans and  bonuses like dwarfs for Agi instead Str.
3. Yes - depending on the lvl increase, there is diff increase in stats too - there is the same increase in stats for ex. from 5-10-15-20-25-30 - for every 5 lvl the same increase in stats, so if some troop upgrades from 5-20 for ex. the 20lvl will have similar stats to some troop upgraded from 15 -20 lvl, speaking for the same race ofc.

For ex. I'm taking  humans as a base - 17/16/7/6 - for militia man(lvl5). From here with better training they get increased Str and Agi, but no more than ~40-50% from the initial Attribs(Str+Agi) at the max tier. Then I apply bonuses or lower the stats of the other races. Dwarves, Beornings and Uruks/Uruk-hai get bonus in Str - diff ones - so a base dwarf at lvl 6 have 25 Str and just slightly less Agi - 15 for balancing, as I don't recall to be written anywhere, that dwarves are clumsier than humans, just the opposite - remembered the sneaky dwarf(forgot his name) from Turin's tale. Beornings 18/17/7/6 +1 Attrib for both Agi+Str, as they're descendants of Beorn. Prob slightly more?
Uruks and Uruk hai  - 22/15/5/3 and 23/16/6/3 and Elves - 18/25/8/8.
From here it's easy - depending on the lvl increase i apply the increases in Attrib. I won't touch the lvls as they're connected with autocalc and this will disbalance the game a lot.

My biggest problem is with the bonuses that player receives - he start with the statistics of the chosen faction - ex. dwarf 25/15/8/5 + AFAIR 4 points to distribute at lvl1 - so he already have +8lvl difference from the NPC's, as he get the Attribs of lvl5 NPC + 4 points bonus.

I'm thinking to  increase the stats of all 2nd and up tier troops, so they don't fall behind the player, but this way they'll have quite big diff from t1....... ?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 09:29:30 am by Grothag »

Offline Grothag

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Re: RCM price rebalancing
« Reply #391 on: March 02, 2012, 09:50:10 am »
What i did for weapons, was to calculate their weight based on the lenght and type of weapon.
So for prices close formula - price based on dmg, type and lenght of a weapon. So 2 swords with the same dmg would have same price if they have the same lenght, otherwise the shortest will be cheaper and also lighter.

Probably s'thing similar, but with lower costs as a base?

Offline Arkerless

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #392 on: March 02, 2012, 09:59:53 am »
I would think there is no need for any racial bonuses, as they are already adequately reflected in the troop levels and equipment.

Offline Grothag

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #393 on: March 02, 2012, 10:08:57 am »
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I was puzzled since pierce should have a 50% AP in the ini file and I should do at least 10 damage(40-(60*0.5))

If pierce I think the formula will be : 40x1.22 - 60x0.5=18.8dmg ; For cut it should be 40x1.22 - 60x1= -11.2 + added bonus from speed to both.

As couched_lance_damage_multiplier       = 0.22 in RCM module.ini

Offline hayate666

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #394 on: March 02, 2012, 10:22:22 am »
Riding a Thengel warhouse (a bit slow) with Rohan Lance(40c) against Isengard Uruk(60 armor).
Merlkir gonna trolololol.  :P
RCM couched damage was balanced to only be effective at (near) full speed. Riding slowly will drastically reduce the damage you inflict against opponents.

Offline GondorKnight

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #395 on: March 02, 2012, 10:29:58 am »
It would be 'wrong' to miss out the racial in terms of 'lore' - this is Middle-earth after all!
The Dunedain (Northern ones mainly) and Eldar are always better.

In turn it would be hard for the player to assemble an army of them- high cost and slow 'upgrade'.
But when you have the heart to grind there will be reward.

Otherwise this is pretty much 'equalize'.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: RCM price rebalancing
« Reply #396 on: March 02, 2012, 10:33:23 am »
I will probably be making the file with these prices for my own use anyway, but, if the players like it, it can be made the official version. Suggestions, comments and opinions, obviously, are welcome. If any coder would volunteer to make a text parser, which would reset the prices automatically in accordance with these formulas, it would be awesome! This should be very easy, but, apart from statistical modeling in MatLab, I haven't had much coding experience since graduation.

I like your idea, but as mentioned, you need to factor in armour weight. A very heavy uruk hauberk with rings like anchor chain links, while perhaps protecting just as well as light-as-a-feather mithril mail shirt, will definitely NOT cost more than The Shire. :)

As for weapons, Grothag's model goes only half way. Weight of a weapon and its lenght do not necessarily correlate. A good example is the Roman gladius, which is emphatically NOT a nimble little shortsword but a killer brute heavier than your average (and much longer) knightly arming sword. So short doesn't necessarily mean light. You also need to factor in speed. A gladius is heavy, short and fast (=epic cutting performance), while a knightly arming sword is lighter, longer and slower. Ron has taken this into account in his stats already, but if price factors in lenght but not speed it will be unbalancing as well.

Other than that, you had me at "It's a fact that equipment prices are unbalanced in RCM". :)

EDIT
BTW, I'm a fairly proficcent Excel user, so if you send me a file with the data in a text file format (separated by commas, tabs or whatever) I think I could easily enough prepare a spreadsheet which autocalcs prices based on stats. (And allows you to extract them in a text format).
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 10:45:25 am by The Yogi »

Offline Grothag

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #397 on: March 02, 2012, 10:35:44 am »
I'm thinking the same - we need racial bonuses/disadvanteges for Middle-Earth and only equipment is not enough, as those stats are very close in both RCM and my items.txt and we'll " rape" the lore otherwise ;)

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #398 on: March 02, 2012, 10:49:20 am »
I think the player bonus doesn't need to be corrected. After all, the player character is not just anyone, but an epic hero who might singelhandedly decide the outcome of the war. Real life isn't balanced, there are exceptional people who excel at everything - strong, fast, brain and handsome. They get all the girls/boys and we hate them to bits, but there you have it. Our player is just such an exceptional person. :)

Offline Grothag

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Re: RCM price rebalancing
« Reply #399 on: March 02, 2012, 10:49:26 am »
"So short doesn't necessarily mean heavy."

You meant "long" i pressume..... But the fact that you're giving an example for weapons from diff age, so used diff materials and different way of forging it, and even if we don't take these factors in consideration  ::), cases for this are very rear, so this just confirm the rule ;) .

Yes - you can use as much steel to forge a dagger as for a sword, but 1) can you balance this weapon good, as it will be much thicker than it shoud and 2) why would you invest 2x the materials and thus increase the cost  and weight of it?

Offline Ettore53

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #400 on: March 02, 2012, 10:49:54 am »
Bugs
With this submod module file  parties kill quest is bugged as in 3.0 returning to native it runs....
With this submod module file spy quest is impossible as no more blunt weapon in game.

Offline Arkerless

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #401 on: March 02, 2012, 11:21:34 am »
It would be 'wrong' to miss out the racial in terms of 'lore' - this is Middle-earth after all!
The Dunedain (Northern ones mainly) and Eldar are always better.

And this is already reflected with uber equipment and higher level troops...

Offline Arkerless

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #402 on: March 02, 2012, 11:22:57 am »
Bugs
With this submod module file  parties kill quest is bugged as in 3.0 returning to native it runs....
With this submod module file spy quest is impossible as no more blunt weapon in game.

There are several blunt weapons in game actually.


Offline Grothag

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #403 on: March 02, 2012, 11:43:47 am »
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I think the player bonus doesn't need to be corrected. After all, the player character is not just anyone, but an epic hero who might singelhandedly decide the outcome of the war. Real life isn't balanced, there are exceptional people who excel at everything - strong, fast, brain and handsome. They get all the girls/boys and we hate them to bits, but there you have it. Our player is just such an exceptional person. :)

Hehehe, good one indeed :D.

But i got the impression, that when you start the game you're no one - started only with orcs and uruks and they were "snaga".....So the player is even less than a regular soldier and you work your way up to become a commander....

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: RCM price rebalancing
« Reply #404 on: March 02, 2012, 12:08:48 pm »
Ok, I'm glad the topis attracts attention:)

I see two concerns being mentioned. First is factoring in weight, weapon length and/or other parameters, second is that such a simple balancing would break immersion. I've actually thought about this and decided on purpose to keeps things simple.

Here's why. Don't forget, that you are never interacting with the market in game. You're not buying things for money, you're requisitioning them from your lord for abstract points that represent his willingness and ability to supply you (i.e. you're not buying an overpriced Uruk armor - you're requisitioning whatever you can get from the armory). In fact, unlike the vanilla M&B, economics is relatively unimportant in TLD, fighting the war is. This kind of balancing is specifically intended to let you own top equipment by day 50, at which point most of your economic issues will cease to be. That also means that, by definition, prices between various factions don't have to be specifically balanced - it's not the market, you can't even convert your requisition points from one faction to the other.

What we need in this situation is a relatively labor-unintensive way to balance the prices out, so that's what I've proposed here. If you want to dig your teeth in this some more, I suggest turning your attention to balancing the troops - that, unfortunately, is harder to do, then balancing the prices.


@ Yogi

Thank you for your offer! You can just use the item_kinds1.txt file from your TLD folder (don't forget to make a backup). Each item is present there as a separate row and the parameters are the same for all items (all the parameter numbers are listed after item names and other literal parameters, so the first number after the names end is number 1 and so forth):
- the second number represents item type (shield, spear, arrow, dart, throwing axe etc.)
- the fourth number is price
- the eighth, ninth and tenth numbers are head, body and leg armor respectively
- the eleventh parameter is skill requirement (PD for bows, you won't need it for anything else)
- the thirteenth and fourteenth parameter are speed and maneuverability respectively
- the sixteenth parameter is the quantity of ammunition
- the seventeenth and eighteenth parameters are thrust/charge damage and swing damage  respectively
These last two have problems, unfortunately. The pierce and blunt damages are quoted in some weird distorted fashion, while the cut damage is quoted normally. So we would first need someone to explain, how are pierce and blunt damages calculated in the text file (or come up with an easier modding proposal - maybe, using the python files, I don't know if it would be easier that way?).