Poll

Would like the proposed prices to be used in RCM?

Yes
6 (85.7%)
No
1 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Voting closed: March 12, 2012, 06:36:37 am

Author Topic: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads  (Read 740655 times)

Offline Arkerless

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #375 on: March 02, 2012, 03:22:14 am »
If I understand correctly (and quite possibly I dont) the autocalc uses RNG, troop levels, tactics levels of respective commanders, and morale to determine outcome. Also a penalty for evil forces if player is evil. Nothing else?

If this is correct we can leave the autocalc as is and use that as our 'tether' to the main mods game balance. Autocalc battles should continue to behave the same way in both of them, and we should reflect roughly the same balance that the autocalc does on the field.

The next step is to try inferring that baseline from the existing file and see what that gives us I suppose.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 03:30:07 am by Arkerless »

Offline Arkerless

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #376 on: March 02, 2012, 03:25:41 am »
Probably he's hitting well-armored opponents. I know even at a decent tilt on a decent horse with a decent lance it can be hard to penetrate elf/dwarf type armour.

Offline Arkerless

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Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #377 on: March 02, 2012, 03:29:18 am »
You can but this has little effect.

Being able to take better control of formations would be huge though.

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #378 on: March 02, 2012, 03:31:35 am »
Yeah, of the troops stats only levels are used in autocalc. If we don't touch these, the strategic balance will not be altered.

So we take the first approach? I'm inclined to follow it too. We should start looking for baselines for each parameter then: four attribs, five profs, and the skills: ironflesh, PD, PS, athletics, riding, mounted archery and shield (I think I've listed them all).

Offline GondorKnight

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #379 on: March 02, 2012, 03:32:59 am »
IMO, the 'balance' should be based like this:
1st: Lore. 2nd: Realistic. 3rd: Logical common sense.
'Balance' in gaming terms of 'buff' or 'nerf' something just to make it 'balance' should not happen.
The cost and time needed to recruit and train these units should be the limiting factor, but not 'balance' them.

2cents

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #380 on: March 02, 2012, 04:02:13 am »
I agree with you. When I say "balance", I don't mean "equalization". Just polishing up the experience.

Offline Dwarf

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #381 on: March 02, 2012, 04:18:10 am »
Riding a Thengel warhouse (a bit slow) with Rohan Lance(40c) against Isengard Uruk(60 armor).
Merlkir gonna trolololol.  :P
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 07:31:58 am by Dwarf »

Offline GondorKnight

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #382 on: March 02, 2012, 04:32:06 am »
Are we going to have a 'baseline' for each faction/race?
And then plus the different growth on it?
Becuase it would be odd for the unit 'grew' from the last to have less skill or profs and such, like they suddenly forgot their skills and experience.
(Which some reported for the vanilla?)

Offline Rene Korda

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RCM price rebalancing
« Reply #383 on: March 02, 2012, 06:36:37 am »
It's a fact that equipment prices are unbalanced in RCM, which makes many items absolutely useless and limits player choices. Grothag has taken on this in his submod, but his solution is to make equipment very costly for the player, to make him work hard to upgrade. While I can understand this reasoning, I view eqiuipment upgrading as a side-business in TLD, to make the beginning of the game more fun. IMO, by about day 50 the player should be reasonably capable of having the best equipment available. Otherwise, his equipment will be seriously inferior to that of his underlings, which is immersion breaking and distracts the him from fighting the war, which by this time should be the sense and purpose of the playthrough.

I've come up with a very simple way to balance the prices in such a fashion, that would broaden the player's choice and make much more weapons and armor feasible to have, while retaining the "top equipment by day 50" style of playing. The prices are just based directly on the properties of the weapons. Below, I provide the formulas.

Bear in mind, that in actual items file all the numbers below should be halved, so as to mitigate the 200% price handicap in shops. I provide the numbers in the way they would be seen in the game.

Armor:
1 point of body armor costs 50 rp
1 point of leg armor costs 25 rp
1 point of head armor costs 40 rp
(Example: 50 body, 20  legs hauberk will have a price of 3000 rps).

Horses:
Speed+Maneuver+Charge*2+(Armor-10)*50 (if the third term is lower then 0, it is assigned 0 value)

Arrows:
100+(Dmg-30)xQuantity

Bows:
Speed+Missile_Speed+PD_requirement*500

Thrown:
Speed+Missile_Speed+Damage*Quantity

Melee:
Max_Dmg*25*n
n=1.5, if Max_Dmg is Pierce or if any dmg is Blunt, n=1 otherwise

Shields:
Armor*20*(Length/100)

I will probably be making the file with these prices for my own use anyway, but, if the players like it, it can be made the official version. Suggestions, comments and opinions, obviously, are welcome. If any coder would volunteer to make a text parser, which would reset the prices automatically in accordance with these formulas, it would be awesome! This should be very easy, but, apart from statistical modeling in MatLab, I haven't had much coding experience since graduation.

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #384 on: March 02, 2012, 06:38:13 am »
No, I thought about setting it as a certain quality if a certain unit to which all other units (irrespective of their faction) would be calibrated.

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #385 on: March 02, 2012, 06:40:55 am »
Dunno, just yesterday I lanced Uruk-hai without any problem in exactly the same setup. Are you sure you're doing it right? Also, if you have installed RCM in the middle of your current campaign, you might get glitches like that.

EDIT: Rohan lance has 40 Cut damage, not Pierce in RCM, BTW. You're probably using Grothag's submod, lances are reset to Pierce in it. I suggest you ask Grothag about your problem, if that's the case.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 06:45:41 am by Rene Korda »

Offline Dwarf

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #386 on: March 02, 2012, 07:28:22 am »
Dunno, just yesterday I lanced Uruk-hai without any problem in exactly the same setup. Are you sure you're doing it right? Also, if you have installed RCM in the middle of your current campaign, you might get glitches like that.

EDIT: Rohan lance has 40 Cut damage, not Pierce in RCM, BTW. You're probably using Grothag's submod, lances are reset to Pierce in it. I suggest you ask Grothag about your problem, if that's the case.
I used the stickied, not Grothag:
Quote
http://www.wupload.com/file/2662242227/RCM_TLD31.rar - the link to current up-to-date RCM version.
http://www.wupload.com/file/2662953992/item_kinds1.txt - you should overwrite the item_kinds1.txt in that version with this file. There were a couple new weapons and armors added and GA forgot to update their values. This file updates them.
http://www.wupload.com/file/2666930792/troops.txt - an optional troop file. It corrects some mistakes and inconsistencies (like 0 Horse Archery skill for some horse archers) and buffs Dale and Rhun a bit.
New campaign, and you are right yes it is cut damage, which makes more sense since 60 armour with 100% absorb should be able to take no damage from 40cut with 2 powerstrike (not sure of the couch multiplier). I was puzzled since pierce should have a 50% AP in the ini file and I should do at least 10 damage(40-(60*0.5)) I'm guessing. The uruks are Isengard not Mordor in case they have different armour. They are arrow proof as well, even head shots since I do around 44 cut damage and they have helms of 60 armour = zero damage.
These are fighting uruks infantry btw, the uruk archers from Isengard I can kill, they have weaker armour.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 08:04:00 am by Dwarf »

Offline Erhen

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Re: Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #387 on: March 02, 2012, 08:11:42 am »
Well, here`s my opinion (nubmers are innacurate)
1 tier units:
Strength
Orc (snagas) = 6<
Gundabad orc (stronger than others)=Gnomes(short ones) = 7<
Galadrim(Lothlorien) elfs(elfmix)8<
Elfs of mirkwood(noldor related)/rivendell(avari related), also townsman Gondorians, Harad, Dale, Uruk = 9<
Rohhirim, other gondorians, Umbar, Khand, Dunelanders, Uruk-hai, far Harad =10
Rhun, Beornings, Rivendell humans = 11

Agility
Gnomes, orcs = 8
Uruks, Uruk-hai, Almost all humans = 9
Umbar corsairs, all horsemans = 10
Rivendell scouts = 11
Elves = 14

Offline Arkerless

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Re: RCM price rebalancing
« Reply #388 on: March 02, 2012, 08:45:26 am »
This sounds like a reasonable baseline, but I would shy away from applying it mechanically as you propose. There should probably be a very high amount of variability off the baseline for immersion purposes, if the values are set so directly by the performance rather than the sorts of things that influence price in reality, it would be 'balanced' from a gameplay perspective but completely immersion breaking.

One factor you dont mention is weight. If you calculate weight in somehow (all other things being equal, the lighter item should be more expensive) that would get it a bit closer but you will still need a lot of fudge factors.

Offline hayate666

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Re: RCM price rebalancing
« Reply #389 on: March 02, 2012, 08:50:55 am »
I like it. But as already mentioned, don't forget to add a comparison between weight and armor value. Something like (200:weight) x (total armor) added to the total cost. 200 is just a number I made up, but it should illustrate what I mean.