Poll

Would like the proposed prices to be used in RCM?

Yes
6 (85.7%)
No
1 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Voting closed: March 12, 2012, 06:36:37 am

Author Topic: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads  (Read 740670 times)

Offline Arkerless

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Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #360 on: March 01, 2012, 09:54:41 am »
As Rohan I noticed that dismount horse archers = dead pikemen. I haven't played Rhun so far, but fighting against them as dwarves can be really hard. Especially the lower tier infantry gets massacred by their horse archers.

As soon as you get infantry that can withstand the hail of arrows you're about to receive it gets to be more in the dwarves' favor, as they will empty their arrows at you and charge in afterwards. The charge part is usually what kills them. I speed this up by mixing archers of my own so they can shoot the horses of Rhun.

As a dwarf I had a ton of fun running a mix of dwarf infantry and elven archers. Utterly devastating against Rhun in particular.  Even with massive numbers, their horse archers cant compete with elves at distance, and if they try to charge those dwarves eat them alive.

Quote
The only thing that stays really dangerous is the heavily armored horseman Rhun possesses. It can usually cut through 2 - 3 dwarves before his horse being cut down.

Unfortunately there are never many of those though.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 01:00:56 pm by Arkerless »

Offline Arkerless

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #361 on: March 01, 2012, 10:27:09 am »
@ Arkerless

Yeah, I have the same stats in both versions. If you could remake them in a realistic fashion (do you know how the length in M&B corresponds to model length,approximately?), it would be absolutely wonderful. We'd make it an official update.

I am sorry I have never figured out how to get item editting to work so I have no idea how to fix that.


Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #362 on: March 01, 2012, 11:27:21 am »

Offline Arkerless

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #363 on: March 01, 2012, 12:25:52 pm »
http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=567 - here's a tool for that.

Thanks I think I tried that one before but I am not sure, I will try again after work.

I have no idea how to do anything with .brfs either though. The only thing I got working so far is troop editting.

Another question since you seem to know your tools, is there some way to convert these files into a spreadsheet format or anything more wieldy?


Offline Gopblin

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Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #364 on: March 01, 2012, 12:40:30 pm »
When talking about light/medium cavalry against infantry, the battle of Snipe's Field comes to mind.

~60,000 Russian militia, mostly foot, fought ~120,000 Tatars, mostly cavalry, and held the line. When the Tatars were exhausted, Russian heavy cavalry charged their flank and routed them.

Heck, the Russians did the same thing to Teutonic knights in the Battle of the Ice a century or so prior. Russian militia held the charge of the knights, and when they were stalled, Russian cavalry charged their flanks and routed them into broken ice.

The idea that cavalry dominates infantry comes mostly from lack of professional, highly motivated infantry in Europe during the dark ages. In fact, there aren't many instances when a cavalry charge can break a tight infantry formation. Cavalry is needed for quick maneuvering, surprise attacks on scattered infantry, flanking and pursuing.

So RCM is quite realistic - Native isn't.

Best wishes,
Daniel.

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #365 on: March 01, 2012, 12:43:17 pm »
You do have a point, Daniel. Anyway, the issue's been resolved (RCM does allow cavalry to be efficient), though we can always discuss cavalry tactics in this thread (I happen to love discussing tactics:) ).
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 01:25:10 am by Rene Korda »

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #366 on: March 01, 2012, 12:45:45 pm »
It's probably feasible to write a script that would convert them back and force, but I haven't seen one.

Offline Rene Korda

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Rebalancing the troops file for RCM
« Reply #367 on: March 01, 2012, 04:33:47 pm »
Recently there has been a series of discussions among RCM players active in the forum, which all seem to point out the necessity of tailoring the troops file to RCM. For this to be feasible, certain baseline standard for the stats has to be thought out, starting from which they would be determined for each unit. This standard basically has to outline three things for each parameter:

1. Certain set point of reference. I.e. "a 3-rd tier evil human melee troop has strength 15" or something like that.
2. Dispersion. How high and how low we can set the parameter, i.e. "strength can be as low as 5 for lowly snaga and as high as 30 for elven lord".
3. Simple incrementing rules. Preferably, these should be tied to a level plus some factions-specific tweak should be applied, to fine-tune the faction differences.

The end goal is pretty clear - to make the game more enjoyable and more finely balanced in line with real-world combat and Tolkien lore, while retaining the realistic approach of RCM.

I see two ways of how the aforementioned standard can be found. The first approach is simply to infer it from the current troop file. We have played with it pretty extensively and know how it works in the game, which would allow us not to make blind shots when designing the new troop file and would require significantly less playtesting.

The second approach is to infer the standard from analytic calculations. We  have the formulas and all the necessary numbers to determine how things would play out among certain troops in certain circumstances. This allows us to tie our standard to these situations, i.e. "the standard 3-rd tier orcish stats are such as to allow the orc to kill a standing and non-acting Gondor footsoldier with a hit of a club on his head". This approach is more laborious and requires a team  of dedicated volunteers to be feasible.

Anyway, these are the ideas that I currently have. Before we even think about starting, some discussion has to take place. Please, do post your ideas and opinions. Unfortunately, the submod's author (Ron Losey) hasn't been willing to continue developing it, so sorting these things out falls on us, the players.

Offline Ettore53

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #368 on: March 01, 2012, 04:47:29 pm »
I am testing RCM and I saw a problem:  the spy quest is now impossible as there are no more blunt weapons to capture spies.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #369 on: March 01, 2012, 05:33:51 pm »
Kill their horses and run into them with your horse. :)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 06:19:00 pm by The Yogi »

Offline Dwarf

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #370 on: March 01, 2012, 07:59:00 pm »
Kill their horses and run into them with your horse. :)
But what about couch lance doing 0-1 damage? Is my horse broken?

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #371 on: March 02, 2012, 12:20:57 am »
That's a bit odd- but RCM reduces the couched lance damage, it's set in the .ini file. Still, running at full speed you shouldn't get that little damage. Maybe your horse is lame?

Offline The Yogi

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Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #372 on: March 02, 2012, 12:29:20 am »
The debate on cavalry vs formed infantry has been raging in many gaming forums. There is a strong following of people absolutely wedded to the idea that heavy cavalry with couched lances could reliably shatter squares of foot unless these used massed pole arms like pikes or halberds, heck, even those according to some.

Of course, this is pure fantasy. There is no way you can make even trained warhorses charge en masse into a (to a horse) seemingly solid obstacle, such as a massed body of men. Horses tend to be a bit insanse, and one or two surely will run right into even a pike square (or over a cliff for that matter) but the vast majority will do the sensible thing and just stop. The Legions of Caesar knew this and had no unde trouble repelling cavalry using only their pilas and discipline (of course, cavalry at their time wasn't all that). Only during the middle ages, where for social reasons cavalry was at its top and infantry at its nadir did the heavy horse rule the battlefield, and as soon as infantry got their act together again, it was all over.

Offline Grothag

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Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #373 on: March 02, 2012, 02:00:55 am »
AFAIR, as I haven't really played the mod in around 2 weeks, there is 1 thing that can be corrected - the formations. What i mean is that shield wall with 3 ranks is ???? So if you have ~100 troops placed in shield wall you get 1 very long row with 3 ranks and you get the same with ranks.....just in the first case the troops in the 1st row are forced to be with shield and in the 2nd it's random.
I'm saying this here as it's closely related with how effective cav is against footmen. It would make huge diff, if shield wall is tightly packed formation, as it should be and ranks is the "normal" formation for inf and archers. Countering cav with shield wall  facing the charge, should be highly effective and stop the charge if made with enough good equipped troops.

Offline Rene Korda

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Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #374 on: March 02, 2012, 02:58:15 am »
You can make the formation tighter/looser by pressing F8 or F9 (by default), respectively.