Poll

Would like the proposed prices to be used in RCM?

Yes
6 (85.7%)
No
1 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Voting closed: March 12, 2012, 06:36:37 am

Author Topic: Combat Damage Model (RCM) - merged threads  (Read 740650 times)

Offline Arkerless

  • Craftsman
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #345 on: February 29, 2012, 09:57:55 am »
but I doubt we should think of troops in TLD as being equipped with these. It would be far more probable and logical for them to be equipped with regular leaf-shaped spearheads. Besides, the artwork in game actually shows these leaf-shaped spearheads for all types of spears, nothing of the armor-piercing sort (a geek like Ron would probably notice an armor-piercing one, BTW).

He did, in fact. Look at the handful he left piercing - dunlanders have a few pokers that have very low damage but it is piercing damage, because they have AP profiles.

Quote
As for the armor piercing weapons, I can provide a good example - bodkin arrowhead. Being very narrow, it has better armor penetrating capabilities, but it is actually less efficient in terms of damage to human body then a regular leaf-shaped arrowhead. If we were trying to model them in TLD, we would probably set bodkins to Pierce and regular arrows to Cut to represent this effect.

And due to the fact that M&B doesnt let you set the value by arrow, but only by bow, there is no option left but to treat all arrows as broadheads rather than bodkins.


Quote
I'm the first to admit that M&B represents this aspect of combat rather crudely, but I think it would be more realistic to leave the threshold at 0, then to raise it. Of course, this is totally a matter of personal choice, I'm only talking about how the base version of RCM should look like. After all, we can all tweak our own versions whichever way we want.

BTW, how has mass combat become with the threshold at 1? Are heavily armored troops significantly buffed because of this?

I will try that myself when I have time to play again next.

Offline Gopblin

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #346 on: February 29, 2012, 02:26:58 pm »
Playing RCM as archer, love it, one thing though:

Do I understand correctly that the bows having really low base damage makes Power Draw much less powerful?
E.g. an elven bow with 9 base damage and really high power draw (say 6) would only give you ~7 extra cutting damage for sinking ~12 extra points into STR? Or do I misunderstand the way this is calculated?

Also, I think a way to introduce AP arrows would be to rebalance the bows/arrows a bit to where bows have higher damage and arrows lower. E.g. if bows had base 20 damage and arrows had an average of +20, Power Draw would be a bit more effective, but *more importantly* you could now introduce a bow with say base 3p damage. That way, by choosing a bow you'd switch between doing 40c damage or 23p damage, which is pretty realistic as bodkins don't do nearly as much soft tissue damage as broadheads.

Best wishes,
Daniel

Offline Arkerless

  • Craftsman
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #347 on: February 29, 2012, 02:58:44 pm »
Playing RCM as archer, love it, one thing though:

Do I understand correctly that the bows having really low base damage makes Power Draw much less powerful?
E.g. an elven bow with 9 base damage and really high power draw (say 6) would only give you ~7 extra cutting damage for sinking ~12 extra points into STR? Or do I misunderstand the way this is calculated?

I think you misunderstand. I think that powerdraw affects bow+arrow damage, not just bow.

The reason the arrows get the damage instead of the bows is because the M&B engine is hardcoded to introduce accuracy penalties increasing as bow damage goes up. So in order to hold accuracy as a constant, the damage needs to be offloaded to arrows and to powerdraw bonuses (by laying out the right PD requirements for the bows.) AFAIK

Quote
Also, I think a way to introduce AP arrows would be to rebalance the bows/arrows a bit to where bows have higher damage and arrows lower. E.g. if bows had base 20 damage and arrows had an average of +20, Power Draw would be a bit more effective, but *more importantly* you could now introduce a bow with say base 3p damage.

But unfortunately you cant. You can make the arrow 3 damage, but the arrow doesnt determine whether it's 3p or 3c or 3b. It's whatever the bow is set to, period. Hardcoded.

Once you understand the limitations Ron works with his work looks even better IMOP.


Offline Gopblin

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #348 on: February 29, 2012, 03:24:20 pm »
Oh, thanks, that cleared the powerdraw issue.

I think you misunderstand the AP bow idea though: It's not to make a 3p ARROW, but to make a 3p BOW.

You'd have a choice between a 20c bow and a 2p bow, with arrows giving say +20, so final would be a choice between doing 40c damage and 22p damage.

From what you're saying about hardcoded inaccuracy, looks like the "broadhead" bow would be a bit less accurate, but still more accurate than the Native bows, so I don't think that would be a big deal.

And while we're at it, one could also make a 1b bow :)

Best wishes,
Daniel.

Offline Rene Korda

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
    • View Profile
Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #349 on: February 29, 2012, 05:09:16 pm »
As many of you have probably noticed, RCM strongly favors the combined-arms approach to tactics and it has certain rock-paper-scissors characteristics: cavalry cuts down archers of comparable level, archer shoot down infantry, infantry in tight formation cuts down cavalry. An army consisting of only one type of  units tends to be weak in certain aspects (I stress again that we're talking about RCM, not the current native version).

Nevertheless, certain factions - like Rhun, Rohan or Khand - do tempt the player to go for an all-cavalry army, not the least because of the lack of proper foot archers within these factions' forces. I've played with two such cavalry parties, one of Rhun, another of Rohan. The Rhunian party was predictably weak, as having their tattooed butts for armor is not a way to make units strong in pitch combat - at least, this seemed to me to be the reason for Rhunian weakness. The usual scenario for combat is a massive cavalry charge stopped dead in the ranks of enemy infantry, with disastrous results. In fact, I haven't found a way to avoid autocalcing heavily with Rhun, though, admittedly, this can be though of as being "gamey" (I actually think of it as harassing the enemy while avoiding pitched battle - a pretty natural tactic for a light cavalry-based army like Rhun).

Now I'm playtesting Rohan and the results are kind of disturbing. Even though rohirrim cavalry is properly armored, it still sucks massively when faced with a formation of Uruk-hai heavy infantry. This can be thought of as a feature of the game - after all, heavy infantry in tight formation is very dangerous to charging cavalry. On the other hand, this can be thought of as a balance issue - if the player had more efficient control over his cavalry (ability to distinguish commands between skirmishers and melee cavalry and ability to have them charge in a group, not ride through enemy ranks like they do if made to do so through minimap commands), as well as less stupid allied AI, he'd probably be able to mitigate enemy infantry formations. Currently, this issue makes cavalry-based armies unfeasible in RCM, which, in theory, should not happen, as they were present in LotR and in real-world medieval warfare, even at the time when infantry's star was already on the rise.

I'd like to hear what the other players think on the issue. Am I, perhaps, in the wrong here, maybe I miss some tactical possibilities that effectively mitigate it? If not, does something need to be done about this - buffing horses, perhaps? Or maybe it's better to leave it as it is? After all, the gaming experience is already rich in tactical opportunities and cavalry is by no means useless in the game. Let's discuss the issue a bit.

Offline vota dc

  • Journeyman
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #350 on: February 29, 2012, 06:20:20 pm »
Cavalry kill without problems archers and infantry with short weapons. Many players complain about warg in fact. Even when enemies use formations there is dismount command and sometimes dismounted cavalry is more effective than infantry.
Dismounted rhun cavalry is better armored than infantry. Of course infantry is better because AI use very well two handed weapons. By the way rhun infantry massacre Dale in the old version: profit until the next where Dale will have a proper armor (well...until tier 5 Rhun will win slimly).
Rhun cavalry also have a problem with infantry: they try to hit them with short falchion. Well soon Rhun won't have falchion anymore for cavalry, just rhun sword and greatsword.

Main problem is that there are few test of pikemen against cavalry since advanced formations don't work in battle test. If you test which pikemen (or which infantry with short weapons...and that would be very bad) are "too effective" against cavalry you will do a great favor, but also keep in mind that pikemen get mowed up easily by dismounted units for the facehug factor.

Faction without proper foot archers are supposed to encourage unit mixing. For example Dunland encourage the employment of Uruk-hai archers. Khand also lack both foot archer and horse archer while Rhun is more self sufficient.

Offline Arkerless

  • Craftsman
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #351 on: February 29, 2012, 06:34:46 pm »
I just installed the updated item_kinds file (thanks for that) and notice a set of bugs from the Ron release that appear to still be in. Shield sizes were (and are) semi-random. Easterling round shield is 50, so is Harondor shield, but Haran model is much larger. Mordor Uruk shield is larger still, yet has a size of 40!

I would fix it myself if I could figure out how to edit this file, sorry.

Offline Arkerless

  • Craftsman
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #352 on: February 29, 2012, 07:04:07 pm »
I have to say I still havent gotten a real army up to fight having just finished updating, but I did run a little rohan cavalry last night and it seemed very much like previous version w/RCM, where I did quite well with an all cavalry force, as long as that force was based on Rohan. As an evil player it's quite near impossible - Rhun troops just suck too bad, and it's not all down to their equipment. Khand has to have horse archers, Rhun wont provide many and disappears early, the orcs have no horse-archery and are way too slow, and the men of the south just cannot provide enough recruits to keep up. Plus their horse archers suck too.

I beefed Rhun and fixed some of the other issues, including giving Khand horse archers, and it was doable. Sort of.

But with Rohan? It's great. Your all-cavalry force shouldnt be *fighting* as such very often, of course, you want to try to join other battles with lots of other troops. You move faster on the map so it's easier to do that. Certain maps (particularly in mirkwood) you have to be spamming dismount the moment the map loads up and use your cavalry as infantry - but on other maps they rule.

They charge and die? Well don't let them do that! I usually have them follow me till in sight of the enemy, mark a spot for infantry and archers to group (as they lose their horses they will try to grab that bit of high ground I mark out and hold it) and then either lead them through the enemy and regroup them on the other side for the next charge, or give the charge order and then stop and take out a few with arrows while they charge, then order them to follow while you ride off at an angle to regroup. Either way you dont expect one charge to break them, you have to keep rallying them and reforming and doing it again. After a few failed charges you will be leading a mixed group, with the foot forming up on a bit of highground you can lead the remaining cavalry around it (and through the enemies) repeatedly until their morale goes down enough to have everyone charge for the finish.

EDIT to add that the improvements to the interface you mention WOULD RULE and I have dreamed of them many times, but I dont think you can mod that in.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 07:06:25 pm by Arkerless »

Offline Arkerless

  • Craftsman
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #353 on: February 29, 2012, 08:57:48 pm »
Oh, thanks, that cleared the powerdraw issue.

I think you misunderstand the AP bow idea though: It's not to make a 3p ARROW, but to make a 3p BOW.

You'd have a choice between a 20c bow and a 2p bow, with arrows giving say +20, so final would be a choice between doing 40c damage and 22p damage.

Well you can just set the 10c shortbow to 10p or 10b if you want to do that. If you are rigging a piece for an NPC in a set scene that will not otherwise be accessible (cannot fall into player hands) then that works fine.

Otherwise you will have players using the 10b bow with elven broadheads to knock out enemies, however, which I think is to be avoided.

Offline Grothag

  • Craftsman
  • **
  • Posts: 97
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #354 on: February 29, 2012, 11:47:51 pm »
Quote
just installed the updated item_kinds file (thanks for that) and notice a set of bugs from the Ron release that appear to still be in. Shield sizes were (and are) semi-random. Easterling round shield is 50, so is Harondor shield, but Haran model is much larger. Mordor Uruk shield is larger still, yet has a size of 40!

Are you sure you installed the updated items, or you installed the base RCM?

In my submod shields - uruk - 70, rhun - 55, harad shields - big variety - from 55 -120.

Offline Rene Korda

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #355 on: March 01, 2012, 01:58:48 am »
@ Arkerless

Yeah, I have the same stats in both versions. If you could remake them in a realistic fashion (do you know how the length in M&B corresponds to model length,approximately?), it would be absolutely wonderful. We'd make it an official update.

Offline Rene Korda

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #356 on: March 01, 2012, 04:27:46 am »
@ Arkerless

Well, that's a load off my back, thank you. I was afraid something was wrong with RCM balance.

On a side note - does every RCM player custom modify troops?:) I guess we'll have to make that rebalanced file at some point.


@ vota_dc

This a purely RCM topic. Under RCM, Dale infantry actually slaughters Rhun, since it is armored and the majority of Rhunians are not. I really don't think native should be discussed here, as current native version doesn't seem to be good in terms of tactical opportunities it offers and since you're changing it totally anyway.

Offline hayate666

  • Journeyman
  • ***
  • Posts: 264
    • View Profile
Re: Cavalry tactics under RCM
« Reply #357 on: March 01, 2012, 05:50:04 am »
As Rohan I noticed that dismount horse archers = dead pikemen. I haven't played Rhun so far, but fighting against them as dwarves can be really hard. Especially the lower tier infantry gets massacred by their horse archers.

As soon as you get infantry that can withstand the hail of arrows you're about to receive it gets to be more in the dwarves' favor, as they will empty their arrows at you and charge in afterwards. The charge part is usually what kills them. I speed this up by mixing archers of my own so they can shoot the horses of Rhun.

The only thing that stays really dangerous is the heavily armored horseman Rhun possesses. It can usually cut through 2 - 3 dwarves before his horse being cut down.

Offline hayate666

  • Journeyman
  • ***
  • Posts: 264
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #358 on: March 01, 2012, 06:21:21 am »
How do you edit stats like that? I have no idea how to do that and I'd like to help changing stats.

Offline Dwarf

  • Craftsman
  • **
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« Reply #359 on: March 01, 2012, 07:30:40 am »
I was using a strong bow with barbed arrows and head shot Isengard uruks for 0 damage. Couched lance (lance does 40 cut damage) also does 0-1 damage as well.  Those uruks must be wearing mithril, they have 60 armour. :o :o :o
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 07:32:18 am by Dwarf »