Author Topic: A Possible Merge in mods?  (Read 23269 times)

Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2011, 10:55:33 AM »
Warband is a mess from what I've heard.  At least with 1.0xx we can develop it some and make it fun to play.

Also, I must have missed that Ron was offline.  That makes sense.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2011, 11:12:17 AM »
Warband is a mess from what I've heard. 

How so? What exactly did you hear? From what I have seen of it by playing it seems a considerable improvement over the original.
Maybe it was just anti Warband propaganda from people who don't have it, or there used to be issues that have been fixed now... I dunno.
So please do explain.
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2011, 11:18:19 AM »
I was referring to the coding aspect of it, not so much the game itself.  I don't actually own a license for it either so I have no idea what the gameplay is like.  I'm assuming it's much better and is fun to play.  An ONR port for it would be really cool but I'd gather that it'd be like starting over if the code is that much different.  Admittedly I haven't spent that much time digging so my comments could be off base.  I just remember Ron mentioning the combat model for Native was absurd, which it was in the original as well.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2011, 11:23:07 AM »
Ah... right, that could be true, I don't know much about coding.
But there are a lot of mods for it, so it shouldn't be much more of a problem I guess.
The gameplay is great, the combat model is more like Ron's combat model then the combat model of the original M&B if I had to compare it to something.
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2011, 11:27:21 AM »
I'd like to see a port to Warband someday but it'd be better to have a coder whose desire is to develop ONR for that version of the game.  I'm anxious to see Shik's port and where his motivations lie with ONR.  Were you just sympathetic to our plight and made a port, or do you think you'd want to develop it actively?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2011, 07:00:39 PM »
I was off-line for a couple of days, guys ... internet connection was down.  Sorry if I missed something.

Shik:  Post your port somewhere, so everybody can download it and hunt for bugs.  (Hopefully there aren't too many ... but I know how that goes.)

Classes starting back, so I will have much more limited time for a while ... I'll try to do what I can.

Offline Shik

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2011, 12:15:09 AM »
http://www.wupload.com/file/146707376/Onin_no_Ran.7z

known issues (all the bugs from .903 and more: this is a direct port so the bugs were ported too :P ):
- all footwear is invisible because of the new way boot meshes are handled in 1.011 - boots need to be made into pairs and rigged.
- music is not added yet
- some script errors related to traveling merchant AI behavior
- hair and beards do not work properly yet
- game occasionally crashes in DX9 due to custom shaders, no crashes in DX7.
- bandit respawning is currently disabled

As far as the reason behind porting it - I was a fan of the mod a while back, and after seeing some activity in this board I figured that I could rekindle some interest in the mod by porting it. I'm no historical expert so I might not be the type of person you guys are looking for, but I might consider developing it further, maybe a port to warband, depending on how much time I have. I am juggling a few other projects at the moment and am starting up school soon, so I am fairly busy. As you can see from the list of bugs, this port for 1.011 is far from finished and needs to be polished, but hopefully this will rekindle some interest in the mod.

As far as a potential warband port goes: there are lots of advantages. Firstly, there is a nifty tool known as the 'Warband Script Enhancer' made by a fellow named cmpxchg8b that lets you bypass several hardcoded things in the game to add new functionality and commands to the game. Secondly, multi-meshing works properly again, there are new shaders better graphics and other stuff like that, as well as increased modding capability (and multiplayer I guess). Moreover, thanks to cmp, we have a great deal of knowledge about the combat formulas for warband.
Another porting option is the M&B game known as 'With Fire and Sword.' It's has pretty much all the hardcoded features of warband except more, such as being able to assign damage type to arrows instead of bows, and other stuff.

But that's a discussion for later, I feel. There are also several obvious drawbacks, such as more work and higher strain on low end systems.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 01:16:20 AM by Shik »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2011, 06:22:46 AM »
The best way to eliminate strain on low-end systems is exactly how we have been handling it - low-poly graphics and even lower-poly LOD's.  That was one of Fujiwara's pet issues, and I highly agree - that also provides for much larger battle size no matter what your hardware. 

If you all want to port to "Warband" or "Fire and Sword" ... don't let me stop you.  I just don't have any experience with it, so somebody else has to figure out the idiosyncrasies.

On the custom shaders ...
First, get the modified MB.FX file from the last working ONR version.  Pull it up in a text editor.  Near the end, you should find a large block of stuff added by Marco Tarini ... that's the custom shader package.  I don't promise this will work, but try tacking that block of text onto the 1.0x version MB.FX file.  If that doesn't work, I'll have to try to find its author and see if he has time to rework it... but try the obvious first.

Those other bugs are why there have been suggestions to take a clean version of 1.0x Native, strip it of undesirable elements, and then start porting ONR stuff a bit at a time.  It might prove easier than debugging the face and hair issues, among others.

Shik:  Don't worry about not being a historical expert yourself ... the issue was people who had some degree of commitment to a degree of historical realism.  That is to say, we don't need "ninja" flying around the room in black pajamas.  If you have historical questions, just ask ... somebody will either know, be able to find out, or be able to fake it close enough that nobody will notice.

Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2011, 10:29:05 AM »
Yeah I don't think the priority at this point should be to get it ported to Warband.  I think the best priority is to get a version up that's playable on 1.0xx.

Btw, thanks Shik for working on this.  I know you have other comittments but being able to move it forward is awesome.

Offline Conners

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2011, 01:54:55 AM »
we don't need "ninja" flying around the room in black pajamas.
Unless you want to have one as a joke :P. That could be pretty funny, actually--like that sword which looked like it came out of an Oni's mouth.


Glad to see this project rising up from the grave :D!!

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2011, 02:30:29 AM »
The dojo at Iga and several ranks of espionage-type characters you could recruit there (including one named NPC from the dojo) were already the "ninja" joke.  There was a decided attempt to put those people into the game, but in some way that still made the point that they were trained soldiers, not magic or chop-sockey flick.  The game representation of them was already leaning a little to the Hollywood, as jokes go - let's not push it any further.

As for the sword that looked like something out of an oni's mouth ... abnormal blade designs did exist, and always have, pretty much everywhere.  The only real joke there was that the smith was supposed to be the very best, and what he produced, while it was wicked-deadly, was clearly not a Japanese design (or anywhere else in particular, for that matter).

Although the point is valid ... a little humor goes a long way toward making a thin storyline seem like it's much better planned than it is.  Particularly when it's absurd humor, i.e. the characters in the game (or novel or whatever) acknowledge that it's out of place.  Just that it's better if that sort of thing is kind of subtle, and relatively rare.  Also better if it has been built up in advance, like the sword from the finest smith in the world that, after an extensive effort to get it, comes out looking utterly preposterous.

Menu choices:
"attack"
"flee into the woods in a lathering panic"

Or better yet:
"attack"
"suddenly remember an urgent appointment ... somewhere else."

The truth can be strangely funny, especially if it goes against the Hollywood stereotype.

Offline Conners

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2011, 03:06:04 AM »
I think the dojos had bugs when I tried them last, so I might've missed out on some of the jokes.

Was it a Persian design you used for that sword? I forget. Either way, that was a very good quest.


Don't like Hollywood stereotypes either... but I do like parodies of them.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2011, 06:34:51 PM »
The version of "sharp wave" in the last released version was a Saracen two-handed falchion.  They were the blades that first had the Crusaders talking about "Damascus Steel" - a pattern-welded and edge-tempered blade in that size was a considerable threat even through a heavy coat of maille.  However, the design is also quite similar to Chinese "dao" (sometimes translated 'broadsword') and some of the heavier weapons used on the Indian subcontinent.  Either way, when paired with an obviously Japanese hilt, it looked utterly preposterous... and that was the idea.

The only way to push this one any further would be if the weapon came out to be an axe.


The "ninja" dojo jokes, in case you missed them -
1. in the Kengo tests, they were using live blades, not wood practice weapons.  (and without armor, that makes the combat a rather one-hit-kill affair)
2. The NPC you get for completing the Kengo trial is very high-level and has crazy skills - spot, pathfinding, tracking, and running speed are all right off the scale.  This seems to represent that the 'ninja' were absurdly dangerous people to tangle with.  She also came with a short sword and shruiken, when most of the samurai-class NPC's started with katana.
3. You could recruit apprentice-level 'ninja' troops at the inn in Iga (after clearing it with the town mayor - text on that was placeholder for what would be future quests or some such).  If you wanted to, you could field an awful lot of these guys ... which anyone should find odd, since 'ninja' would translate into modern military terms as 'special forces'.
4. Those "ninja' troops were wearing lighter armor, usually hoods, carrying shruiken and moving on foot.  (That last part was pure Hollywood - period texts from several schools all list horsemanship and archery as required skills.)  We even cooked up some kusari (chain) shirts and hoods for them - which were based on historical pieces, but relatively rare ones.

Granted, people with weak command of history could miss the jokes ... but they were pretty obvious to some off us.  Pushing it any further would be misrepresenting what is actually known.

The sohei and yamabushi were handled a lot the same way.  The stereotype of the sohei wearing monk's robes, no matter what armor was under it, and headbands.  Naginata for the sohei and axes for the yamabushi.  Likely overdone, but heavily playing into the image and common perception of them.

Offline Conners

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2011, 05:12:23 AM »
Darn, I thought it was Persian (maybe I'm thinking of the wrong conversation).


Ah, I thought some of that was a little off (fighting with real weapons is a good way to run out of disciples). I never got round to recruiting ninjas, sadly. Didn't pay a lot of attention to my companions' skills, either.

Problem is, most people will think, "oh, so the stereotypes were more true than I thought". If you had the one hidden companion, who wore black pajamas and was always talking about rare ninja-techniques, while the player and everyone else thought they were a crazy guy--they might get the idea (yes... "might" I'm sad to say).
Not saying to do that, though.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2011, 06:23:16 AM »
The big two-handed falchions were Saracen, i.e. modern Syria.  They were not nearly as common as fiction portrays them, since the Saracens valued their archers, and particularly horse archers, over shock infantry anyway.

The Persians of the period were part of several different nationalities, all loosely grouped with the Saracens and the Arabs under the banner of an Islamic world empire.  They did all share similar weapon designs and weapon-production techniques, including composite-construction recurve bows and the original narrow straight-blade "seif" (as in "Seif al Islam" - the sword of Islam, the symbol of Jihad).  However, being more of a desert people, the Persians had always been much more horse-intensive (infantry is pretty useless in the middle of a huge dry flat area) ... so they tended to gravitate more to sabers and spears than to two-handed swords.

That, of course, being completely irrelevant.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reality is that the province of Iga did train troops in covert operations, and everybody knew it.  One emperor (I would have to look up which one) referred to the shogun's spymaster as "A Bushi of far-away Iga Province."  Part of the reason was just adaptation to the environment, since the province was out in the hills and kind-of off the beaten path ... better terrain for a guerrilla war than trying to force a pitched battle.  The other reason was supply and demand - everybody needed special-forces troops, so Iga trained them.

The "ninja" (roughly translated "covert operations troops") and "shinobi" ("spies") were in high demand because political intrigue was the order of business.  Therefore the Japanese got very good at it.  Much of the technique used by modern spies, snipers, and other covert operatives is derived very directly from the old Japanese forms.  Like their modern counterparts, the ninja of ancient Japan were professionals at what they did ... they were cold-blooded killers.  Some had good reasons (like getting rid of very bad people before anyone else dies), some worked for whoever and didn't care who they killed, kidnapped, or otherwise harmed.  They worked in espionage, and in counter-espionage, terrorism and counter-terrorism, sometimes all at the same time.  They were alternatively named heroes for their courage and skill, or marked as cowardly back-stabbing thugs ... just like how modern snipers are treated.  Some were samurai ... some were peasant-born.  One thing, however, can be said for all of them ... like their modern counterparts, they were very good at what they did, and no matter if you loved them or hated them, you had to fear them.  They were dangerous people.

The Hollywood "ninja" is part of the post-WW2 "martial arts" craze, and like most of its contents, retains some of the appearance of the original without understanding its content.  This is where the idea falls apart - trying to make the most absurd stunts look like standard procedure.  I mean, climbing a 30-foot wall and sneaking into a military base at night is generally a poor way to set up a hit, unless you're on a short time table and just don't have a choice.  Catching the fool out shopping, when he only has a couple of goons with him, and putting a knife in his back is much more efficient.  A bullet or crossbow bolt from a second-floor balcony is even cleaner.  Or poison in the water supply (although that will likely have heavy collateral damage, in the form of whoever else drinks it... that could work for or against you).  But those moves wouldn't make for much of a movie, because the stunts would all look like the kind of thing that middle-aged slightly-overweight guys could do.  So they go for the most extreme examples, to show how cool they were ... when, realistically, extreme tactics usually mean that the more practical plans have failed.  Granted, the practical plans do sometimes fail, and people try the most absurd stunts out of desperation ... but in reality those stunts weren't because they were cool ... it was because they were running out of options.

And this is the base line of covert operatives in any time period.  The same can be said of fiction involving modern or semi-modern special forces teams.