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Author Topic: A Possible Merge in mods?  (Read 19436 times)

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 08:12:28 PM »
I have not looked over the warband code.  When I heard about the joke it was, with a spam-fest of huge axes and such, I just figured it wasn't worth even thinking about.  Now, if somebody really wants to port ONR to Warband, it might become worth my time.

And as for what you would have to learn ... well, if you have a preference - i.e. you can write code or the like - then I'm sure we can get enough of the team back together to cover what you don't do.  But long story made short - we need a programmer, in Fujiwara's absence.  Not just somebody who can read a little bit of Python, but a sharp programmer.

And yeah, that's exactly what copying it to a stripped-down copy of Native would entail.  It's not as hard as trying to port a complete working package, in the sense of technical difficulty with the code, but it's absurdly tedious and time-consuming.  Nor is it a project for the inexperienced.  It's basically starting from scratch, except for the graphics and a rough blueprint of where you are headed.  I haven't tried to do this myself, because I'm not that good with Python... and half the ONR 3D models are mine, as well as the now famous (or infamous) RCM damage model, so I doubt too many modders would count me as inexperienced.  That's what we're up against.

womb8t

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2011, 01:08:53 AM »
Thanks for utterly crushing my hopes and dreams...

But its what I wanted. Nice and blunt. So basically. When you say coder/programmer you mean someone who has a degree?

Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2011, 12:35:20 PM »
A degree?  No.  But skill enough to work in the field or develop your own mod?  Yeah.  If it were easier than that, someone would have done it by now.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2011, 06:55:23 PM »
Precisely.  Some of the best programmers are, in fact, self-taught.  However, if you are not at a level where you could get a job writing code, you're not a "programmer".  I know I'm surely not one.  I can butcher some Python code if I must, but I can't put it back together without help.

So the degree is optional.  The skill level is not.  Butchering code the way I do it is just not going to get ONR ported to 1.0x (or Warband or whatever).

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2011, 04:22:23 PM »
Hi guys, it sure has been a long time since I've posted here.

If people are seriously considering a Warband version of Onin no Ran, then I'm willing to help out with making models and sharing my knowledge about Japanese armor & weapons of the time.

Personally, I think it would be best to just take some basic stuff from the old mod, like the map and some architecture, weapon & armor models, and leave the difficult coding out off it (it was just keeping the mod back without adding anything really important to it).
And if we keep the difficult coding out of the mod, we would not need an expert programmer.

After that, start updating weapon and armor models so they look more like the real thing, I also recommend scrapping the post and pre period armor (like the o-yoroi) and the foreign weapons as well (those from the Ruykyu islands), that should make the mod better and it will be a lot less work to deal with.

RCM would be nice to have as well.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 04:27:10 PM by Ichimonji Hidetora »
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Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2011, 10:05:50 PM »
RCM stats I can handle.

The odd and foreign weapons were part of what gives the thing some flavor, if we can just get them isolated to pirates and others who would have odd-lot stuff like that.  Making the point that Japan was not completely isolated to another planet has some historical value.  (A lot of "Japan"-based fiction acts like Japan was not even on the same planet as the rest of us.)

O-yoroi was no longer the dominant battlefield armor, but it was still the status symbol of anybody with the resources to afford it.  Certainly wouldn't want to see it removed.  Plus, the actual work to add it is measured in seconds - we have usable (if not good) models already.  Tweaking who exactly would be wearing the stuff ... that's a constant battle.

Same with the graphics ... I think the 3d models of weapons are looking better, finally.  It was a terrible fight, but I think we have most of them now.  Some might be a little off, but they're generally close enough to look pretty good in the game.  Armor ... well, I didn't attack that one, but it's still pretty close, all considered.

The complex programming was not adding much yet, but it was eventually planned to be the storyline.  The Onin War was about economics and politics, more than open battlefield combat.  Starving out a target by intercepting caravans is a more viable tactic than open assault, and protecting the same from an enemy doing this to yours a necessity.  But to do that right requires a complex political and economic model - one that was not finished, but will eventually have to be put in place.  That was the problem.  We could move the models and such over to a copy of Native, and have a somewhat playable combat simulator ... but there's really nothing to do, long term, until the rest is finished.  All the flavor of Japan - the intrigue and espionage that goes along with a political power struggle - is tied up in building something that M&B was never really meant to support.

Anyway, yeah, that's what I was saying about a stripped-down version of Native (1.0x or Warband or whatever).  Take Native whatever, strip the parts we don't want, plug in what we do.  Not a complete mod, but we could get a workable base-line that way.  But even that requires a lot more programming than you would think.  I'm not sure I could handle it. 

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2011, 05:24:18 PM »
RCM stats I can handle.

That would be great... if this mod project ever gets revived, time will tell I suppose, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

The odd and foreign weapons were part of what gives the thing some flavor, if we can just get them isolated to pirates and others who would have odd-lot stuff like that.  Making the point that Japan was not completely isolated to another planet has some historical value.  (A lot of "Japan"-based fiction acts like Japan was not even on the same planet as the rest of us.)

We could also add some Martian sci-fi weapons, I'm sure that will also add some flavor :green:
Nah... but seriously, if this mod focused on Kyushu then I would totally agree with you, but this conflict was about Kyoto, the occasional lost pirate from Okinawa is just a poor excuse to add stuff that people will think of as cool, but those weapons should have no place here (just my 2 cents).

O-yoroi was no longer the dominant battlefield armor, but it was still the status symbol of anybody with the resources to afford it.  Certainly wouldn't want to see it removed.  Plus, the actual work to add it is measured in seconds - we have usable (if not good) models already.  Tweaking who exactly would be wearing the stuff ... that's a constant battle.

By the time of the Onin war O-yoroi was already great gran daddy's antique from the Nanbokucho war, by this time there was sort of a transitional period, things like the O-sode and sendan no ita/hatowo no ita were fixed to do-maru and haramaki-do instead of the O-yoroi cuirass.
You can find a lot of late Edo period armors that also look like that, although slightly updated and much more ornate, those armors are often misidentified as O-yoroi even though they clearly lack the separate armor flap on the right side of the cuirass known as the waidate (the O-yoroi eventually came back as a show piece for rich people during the later half of the 18Th century).

What it comes down to is that having an O-yoroi in this mod is like having a hauberk in late 15Th century Europe, it's just wrong, but we have had this conversation before with Fujiwara as well and I've never been able to convince either of you, it's kind of like when a brain surgeon is saying that trepanning your skull (drilling a hole in it) is a bad idea, but what the heck would an expert know about that right? :P
But people will always have their differences, it doesn't bother me, it makes life more interesting that way.

Same with the graphics ... I think the 3d models of weapons are looking better, finally.  It was a terrible fight, but I think we have most of them now.  Some might be a little off, but they're generally close enough to look pretty good in the game.  Armor ... well, I didn't attack that one, but it's still pretty close, all considered.

The graphics look outdated, they already looked outdated 2 years ago, but at least you had a good excuse then (a crappy PC), do you have a new one now by any chance?
Also, about the armor: it was quite bad, there wasn't even a model for the haramaki-do, a place holder was used instead (the samurai armor from native, that also happens to be a very bad looking tosei-gusoku).
Now, I'm not saying that high poly models should be made for them or anything, but a bit better and more accurate models would do well for the mod, these armors are constantly in your face after all.
Besides, it was already decided a long time ago that I would update the armors, but they were never put in the mod because Fujiwara didn't have any time for the mod anymore... sadly.

The complex programming was not adding much yet, but it was eventually planned to be the storyline.  The Onin War was about economics and politics, more than open battlefield combat.  Starving out a target by intercepting caravans is a more viable tactic than open assault, and protecting the same from an enemy doing this to yours a necessity. 

In the end, what it all comes down to is this, (most) people who play Mount&Blade don't want to defeat people with copper coins and salt (the salt thing is a reference to the Uesugi/Takeda conflict), they want to kill the enemy on the battlefield.
Sure, an advanced economy code is a nice to have, but when it drags the mod into it's early grave... then it has to go.

Adapt or die, am I right?

Anyway, yeah, that's what I was saying about a stripped-down version of Native (1.0x or Warband or whatever).  Take Native whatever, strip the parts we don't want, plug in what we do.  Not a complete mod, but we could get a workable base-line that way.  But even that requires a lot more programming than you would think.  I'm not sure I could handle it.

Warband is a lot better then the original Mount&Blade, a remake of Onin no Ran should best be made for Warband, a lot of people play it and ever since I got it I never looked back even once.


Ok, now for a bit on topic just for the sake of conversation: I just looked at that mod yesterday and I'm impressed with the fact that Woyo-Sensei got that far on his own, I just wish it wasn't a fantasy mod :(
Yeah... it's very far from accurate, for example: have you seen the castle walls? They are inspired by the walls from Shogun 2 Total War, and so they have an enormous horizontal.... erm... gap in the wall.
Copying the mistakes of that game is bit sad, Shogun 2 Total War was a complete letdown, it has Geisha in it, they might as well have put modern lawyers in it too, you could sue the crap out of the enemy :P
You know... I counted about 20 mistakes in their armors just by having a quick look at some screenshots, I just stopped counting them even though I spotted some more.
Being a Nihon Katchu connoisseur really can be a disadvantage sometimes... it's like they say: ignorance is bliss, knowledge can and will ruin games and movies.
Needless to say... I never bought that game.

Oh... you know when someones mod becomes very amusing to me? When it has oxymorons in it like "heavy ashigaru'', or worse: ''heavy ashigaru cavalry" :lol: (for those who don't know: ashigaru were light infantry as their name implies).
I always see stuff like that in so called samurai mods, that and modern Japanese names for certain things like towns or troops (btw, Onin no Ran has this too, the modern Japanese names that is).
Yep... ignorance is bliss.

"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2011, 09:12:21 PM »
I still have a poor excuse for a computer.  (Different, but it still sucks.)  Low-poly is still the way to go with graphics - if you happen to have a great computer, just figure you get a bonus on battle sizes and frame rate.  In-game, you don't really have time to just stand there admiring the weapons anyway, unless you just have a thing about looking at the game instead of playing it.

As for graphics looking out-of-date, I don't see how M&B is going to avoid that.  ONR was still short of a harimaki-do model, although a retexture might do it.  A couple of other things needed work, although I forgot which ones.  I didn't do the body armor at all, because of rigging concerns.  Japanese saddles on horses would be nice, but converting horses gave us a lot of trouble earlier as well, so ... ouch.

There were plenty of maille hauberks in late 15th century Europe, although they were generally being augmented with added trauma plates.  They were no longer the preferred armor of knights and the like, but they were still being made, and worn by anybody who could not afford to have articulated plate armor fitted to them.  There is good print evidence of this - George Silver, "Paradoxes of Defence" 1599 made a number of references to maille when complaining that rapiers were useless against military-type armors, and it appears in some illustrations in the "fightbooks" of that period.

As for o-yoroi, yeah, it was an obsolete design by the Onin War, but Japanese nobility were known for putting the darn things on just to show off.  (More of that in Edo period, but no reason to believe it didn't happen earlier ... traditions like that don't just appear overnight.)  The fact that it was their grandfathers' armor makes it somehow better, to Japanese thinking.  Now, like the tournament plate armors in Europe, one could raise the question if they actually planned to wear that and fight, or if it was purely ceremonial/decorative/sport.  That question is worth asking.

And yeah, that mod in question was pretty comical.  I didn't even try to count mistakes - the screenshots just screamed "Excuse me?"

"Heavy ashigaru cavalry"  would be like saying "elite conscripts".  Although, that's the quality of designations you see in a lot of games, in any language or setting.

(I actually caught the reference to salt.)  The programming issues related to economics are going to have to be there, to some degree.  Native has a complex formula for figuring how many troops some side gets, and it has to be modified or replaced just to make the game work.  Replacing it with a simple infinite-number-of-troops-spawn-out-of-thin-air script is possible, but frustrating as soon as the player realizes that there is no larger benefit to whomping these guys.  Even then, it's a programming nightmare - we still need a programmer.  They don't call this stuff "code" for nothing - reading it is as baffling as anything the "enigma machine" ever cranked out.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2011, 05:33:56 PM »
I also have a poor excuse of a computer, I should have had a new one by now, I was gonna get it for when Shogun 2 was released.... but that turned out to be a fantasy game so I never got a new PC.

I once had horses with Japanese saddles and stirrups and reigns, that looked nice until I went uphill and the stirrups deformed in a way I didn't like.
I used the auto rigging tool for that then, I'm very sure that I could get better results if I did it myself, but I still have to check out a tutorial for that.

About the hauberks, I was referring to the fact that by 1567-1577 (the same years as the Japanese Onin war) the knights used plate armor with maille gussets, scenes like those of the crusades with mounted knights wearing maille PJ's :P were no longer seen, you know what I'm saying ;)

What I really don't get about these so called samurai mods is when people get all hyped over crappy armor models with their amateuristic photo realistic textures that are all warped, and tell everyone on the internet how awesome they look.... I suppose I could just model a cardboard box and use that as a body armor and call it a samurai armor and people would tell me how awesome it is ::)
It just goes to show that people haven't got the faintest clue about Japanese armor, it's just sad.

The latest samurai armor model I made was a bit high poly, not as much as modern games though, but quite high for M&B, it turned out to be no less then 98% accurate, sadly I lost the textures :(
I consider most Japanese armor models I see in games/mods to be less then 10% accurate, and even the well made armors are often no more then 35% accurate, but then I'm not even talking about post or pre period yet... meh.
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Shik

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2011, 10:49:57 PM »
I've been working with the source code provided for a couple days and I think I'm getting *pretty close* to getting a rudimentary workable port it to 1.011. The code in its entirety (no cuts from the original or pointless additions from native) has been updated for 1.011 and compiles properly, and the game loads without crashing. The last major obstacle seems to be a strange user interface issue that causes text on some buttons to disappear or become unusable, making the game unplayable, but I think that I will probably be able to resolve that soon.

Edit: I resolved the issue, and I am very happy to announce that I've made a working port of Onin no Ran for 1.011.  :)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 12:30:39 AM by Shik »

Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2011, 06:44:49 AM »
What.

Like really?

Offline Shik

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2011, 10:46:16 AM »
Yes, I am waiting for permission to release it before I upload it.

Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2011, 10:49:19 AM »
Ron will probably be up in a few hours if I had to guess (It's still very early in China).  Definitely get him a copy of it.  He's the highest authority on the Mod at this point.

Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2011, 10:20:02 AM »
Well I dunno where he's off to.  I figured someone would be jumping up and down at the idea that someone finally ported this to 1.0xx.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2011, 10:51:56 AM »
Congrats to Shik for porting it (too bad it's not for Warband though).

As for Ron: I suppose he will be back on-line eventually, just give him some time.


"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"