Author Topic: A Possible Merge in mods?  (Read 22784 times)

Wundai

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A Possible Merge in mods?
« on: June 05, 2011, 10:52:55 AM »
Hey Ron,

So to be frank, it has been such a long time since this modteam has been together, I think a point has come where you have to be honest and say Fujiwara will not return nor will the team itself, as it was. Which means unfortunatly this could be deemed a Dead mod :(

So I have a question if you have considered this.

Have you ever thought about merging elements of your mod with the Shogun Mod for Warband?

His models + Buildings, merged with your scripting, campaign, coding and storyline + quest would be a great thing.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't know anything about the engine of M&B and the engine of Warband, so I do not know how easy this would be.

But Positive points are:

-That you are again on the road to a completed mod be it merged.

-Those who were with this team have the chance to work on a big project again that has to do with Japan and the Samurai, which is one of the big reasons you started this in the first place. ( I know I did with the RNJ mod, so I can imagine to be in your position a little bit :) )

-A lot of fans would I reckon would welcome this oppurtunity, and you mod would be revived?

What is your position in this and also Fujiwara's if he reads this?

( I have not yet asked this to the other side's Shogun mod, you were the first :) )

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2011, 08:09:19 PM »
I'll put this where it is:  One, I am not in a position to make a decision on it.  I am simply not a programmer, and so cannot make any serious technical assessments on the feasibility of such a move.  Nor do I have authorization from the various contributors on re-using their content.

The critical component for anyone on the ONR team, before agreeing to any such arrangement, would be commitment to historical accuracy.  This whole thing, since long before I got involved, has been an experiment in realism.  Any elements that would not pass as material for a doctoral dissertation are not acceptable (excluding a bit of comedy relief, like seeing how absurd-looking we could make "Sharp-Wave", and even that has to be feasible).  I have not studied the Shogun mod, and do not know what exactly they are building... but to get anyone from this project to help, they would effectively have to agree to that condition.  Pretty much everyone on this team is an academic historian, and most of us are at least fair swordsmen in real life.

Furthermore, we are waiting on Fujiwara because we lack a programmer.  Without him we can't port this thing to 1.0x or Warband.  So all the quests and setting material you mention is going to require attention.  And I somehow doubt that ONR needs models for very much ... the ones already in-game are geometrically accurate, and deliberately low-poly (to go easy on the hardware).  Except for a few items of interest (horses with Japanese saddles, for example), most everything is modeled.

Now, if any programmer from one of those projects wants to come over here and help, I think I have the support of the rest of the team in saying that we will take all the help we can get.  I would like to see this thing back on track.  But I wonder, from your description, if there is any direct benefit in the merge you mentioned.  I would have to look over the situation a little more carefully.



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Edit:
Just looked over that mod ... at least the screenshots and the like that they have posted.  Their history is all screwed up.  Models are from all over the place, half of them Chinese or the like, from 12 different centuries, plus whatever they could find in fantasy films.  Half the weapons look more like they should be used by orcs than samurai.  Textures are, in many cases, that crude cast-iron metal look from M&B Native - not at all the polished blades of Japanese swordsmiths.  The building models, too, are from all different centuries, and not at all arranged in any sort of historical design.  (They have "ninja" running around on an open battlefield wearing black pajamas, like that's going to help outside in broad daylight.)  The whole thing looks like a bad knock-off of some Japanese cartoons.

And to make it worse, the models are high-poly and textures are high-resolution.  Only those with new computers designed for games are going to be able to run that on a battle of any size.  That's going to eliminate the older crowd that has been the backbone of ONR ... professional historians, university profs, and the like, seldom have that type of hardware.  What could be worse than bad designs rendered in extreme resolution, so you can really see how bad they are?

Compare that to ONR, where pretty much every piece of equipment is measured from museum pieces, of the right period and location.  Before adding anything, there have been major debates on how much a particular piece of equipment was used, which surviving examples we should use for models, and who should get them ... all the way down to what kind of hats certain people should wear.  I just don't think we speak the same language.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that I doubt anyone involved in ONR is going to want to work with those people, unless they specifically want to help here (and accept the culture and spirit in which ONR was made). 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 12:20:35 AM by Ron Losey »

Offline Conners

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2011, 03:14:37 AM »
On the subject, though, I don't guess there are any other mods, similar to onin-no ran, that could benefit from a mutual relationship? Probably not, sadly...

Wundai

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2011, 01:34:29 PM »
I see.


Well I was hoping like Conners that a merge could never include something negative.

But... your points make sense..unfortunatly yes.
A programmer is needed and also both teams (or better said your team and Woyo because he works on it alone) have to come to terms about what to do.

I guess in my act to want to suggest something to give this mod life, I have not thought it through entirely, I'm sorry.

But on the other hand, the way we are going now you cannot honestly still believe Fujiwara to return after all this time? :(

You are free to close the thread though if you deem it necessary, I don't want it to become a 'haters' thread. Your points are correct.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2011, 07:41:33 PM »
I don't actually have any authority to "close" a thread.

As for Fujiwara, last time I talked to him (by instant message), he was really quite eager to continue the project.  However, his real-life obligations and survival made it impossible at the time.  Should his situation stabilize at an acceptable level (i.e. without killing him), then yes, I would expect him to be back.  But bad economic situations don't disappear overnight, so expecting him back immediately is unreasonable.  Unlike the kids who do many of these mods, with this team you are talking about people with dependents to support, for the most part.

And yes, that stipulation - history as a primary concern - has complicated situations before.  A number of would-be contributors were turned down because they could not agree to that point.  They were looking for a fantasy mod where ninja fly around like in Chinese chop-sockey flicks and kill people with throwing stars, and just could not accept a realistic setting where real dangerous people went out and actually tried to kill each other with blades.  (I mean, getting hit with a real shruiken would hurt like heck, but the odds of one killing somebody immediately is pretty much zero.  Bleeding might be a concern after taking a couple of them....)  In reality, Japanese battles almost always started with the infantry, in a very non-Hollywood move, hurling stones at each other.  Not very glamorous, but fairly effective.  It's a totally different mentality to build a game mod that way.

But in that light, yes we do need a programmer.  With that degree of help, ONR could be ported and continued, even with our team lead absent.  (I am NOT mod lead here, but I think I can speak for most of the team ... I'll coordinate as best I can.)  So don't give up looking.   But note that Fujiwara did a lot of off-the-wall stuff to the code, and now it's so darn complicated that somebody is going to really need to know their stuff in order to even read it.  I can't make heads or tails of half of it, and several people have offered to try and then given up.  So we need a sharp programmer.  If you find one, send him over.

Offline Conners

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2011, 12:24:25 AM »
Come to think of it, what were shuriken (throwing stars) used for? Had thought they'd be sharp enough to seriously injure a person if they connected properly (like the neck, for example).

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2011, 04:54:19 AM »
OK, then ... historical use of shruiken.

One, you can poison them and use them for assassinations.  Thunk, a dart hits somebody from out of the crowd.  He pulls it out, and his security guys go nuts.  Two hours later they realize that  it had been dipped in raw sewage, and the resulting infection would be hard to control even with modern antibiotics.  Hit accomplished, although not as glamorous as blowing his head off, maybe even without them realizing what just happened.

Two, they make fine distractions.  Stick them in somebody, and while he's looking down and trying to pull the darn thing out, jump in and whack him with a sword.  Also works with chemicals - throw salt or red pepper in eyes, then pounce.  Great in modern world with pepper spray and a good sharp knife.

Three, they draw blood.  Stick a couple of them in somebody and he will be bleeding bad enough that running and fighting will certainly be a lot less efficient.  A wounded opponent is almost as good as a dead one ... he can't really keep fighting after taking a couple of those, and he uses medical resources to bandage him up.  If you need to slow him down more, put another one in him. 

Side note that they work against horses too.  Horses that are bleeding and in pain are a lot less reliable.  Knocking down a horse without either a bow/crossbow/firearm or a really big melee weapon can be tricky.  Bleeding them from sticking a few darts in them can surely level the playing field.

I mean, yeah, the injury is real.  In the absence of armor, that sort of thing could cut you up pretty badly.  But they don't kill like a sniper rifle, like you see in the movies.  If they kill, it's either from bleeding or infection.  If from bleeding, it's probably because the wounded person kept fighting without realizing how badly they were cut.  More likely, they were more of an issue of wounding and annoyance than direct fatality.  But considering their small size, easy concealment and deployment, they were fine weapons for doing exactly that.

The shruiken in ONR are very carefully modeled to reflect this.  You will probably have to hit somebody several times to get results, especially if they are wearing any armor at all.  However, they are light and fast to throw, so this could happen - you can stack several of them into a target pretty quickly, and then run and wait for him to bleed.

Offline Conners

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2011, 08:03:17 AM »
Oh, so a true Assassins' Weapon! Lighter than a sword, easier to transport unnoticed, then you can throw several very fast. Might be a problem, if the target was somewhere they could get quick medical attention--but using shuriken there would be poor deployment of your resources (unless you poison them, as noted).

Thank you for explaining.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2011, 09:56:33 AM »
No, I think you miss the point.

One, if you do poison them as described, they are a lethal poison-delivery system with sufficient penetration to make sure the poison or bio-agent goes very deep ... without the complication of strolling up to a VIP carrying a crossbow.  As for medical care, that's a modern concept - infection was pretty much unbeatable before the 20th century, no matter what you did.

Two, infantry of the ancient world suffered from lack of reach with their melee weapons.  This is why so many armies issued javelins, darts, throwing axes, and the like to their front-line troops.  The ability to extend your reach, even by a few feet, could be enough to disorient an enemy battle line.  If half of their guys are stunned or distracted by a hail of rocks and sharp pointy objects, your first row of assault troops are twice as likely to blow through their line.  If their heavy horse comes down on your footmen and the horses are greeted with a barrage of painful wounds before they get within lance range, odds are the rider will have to quit attacking and just try to stay on the horse (while being caught in the hail of projectiles, himself).  And this is accomplished with an object that can be drawn and thrown with one hand, without ever having to relax the grip on the primary weapon (or, in the case of the Roman darts, the shield) ... a quick and powerful alternative to having to issue bows or crossbows to your shock infantry and train them to switch weapons all the time.

While the Japanese developed an array of throwing objects that look extremely foreign to those of a European background, the theory and effect was exactly the same in both places.

So if you have the resources, issuing a bladed thrown weapon to infantry would be an improvement over just having them collect a dozen good throwing rocks before the fight starts.  It does offer the potential to ruin your opponent's day in a hurry.  Remember that just a few things going wrong at the outset of combat can screw up your whole plan.

Offline Conners

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2011, 10:06:11 AM »
Oops :-[. Sorry for missing that point. Maybe I was overestimating armour subconsciously or something like that (that still doesn't help the horses, where Japan is concerned).

Note to self: Battles start with throwing rocks! And any pointy objects you have designed for throwing.

Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 11:39:52 AM »
A coder would flip the development switch back on for ONR, whether it's Fuji or not (obviously Fuji is ideal).  I've looked at the stuff myself and honestly it's over my head. 

For any mod-team merge to even be justifiable, a coder would have to be brought to the table first (in addition to what Ron has already mentioned).  ONR's models and concept are already top notch (especially the historical world map, cudos for that one).  Even just a port to 1.xx (not Warband) would go a long way towards moving forward again.  But that hasn't happened yet obviously.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 11:42:49 AM by nobuo »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 10:30:25 PM »
A coder would flip the development switch back on for ONR, whether it's Fuji or not (obviously Fuji is ideal).  I've looked at the stuff myself and honestly it's over my head. 


Question:  If the current ONR code is beyond you ... how about a re-fit instead?  Take a stripped-down version of 1.0x Native (disable everything we don't want, like the annoying whine from team members), and start plugging in ONR elements?  I could help a lot more with that than I ever could with reworking all that stuff Fujiwara cooked up (most of which I don't even know where he was going with it).  If we could get ONR back playable in current version, maybe eventually we could get all the quests and trash plugged back in as well.

It's not ideal ... it's kind of the hard way to get somewhere ... but it's better than being at a total impasse.  But my code skills aren't even up to speed to do that, personally - I could move the gear and troops, and maybe kill most of the unwanted "features" from Native, but everything else would pretty much throw me a curve.

I haven't even looked at Warband yet ... I was told the Native combat model was utterly absurd, and just didn't have the heart to face it.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2011, 08:40:30 PM »
Guys:

http://uploading.com/files/26efa74f/Onin%2Bno%2BRan%2Bdev%2BJune%2B11.rar/">Onin no Ran dev June 11.rar - 67.6 MB

Here's the last dev version for M&B .90x .... it's full of bugs, but if anybody wants to think about refitting it, it's someplace to start.  Source code included.

womb8t

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 03:57:25 AM »
Lets take this hypothetically:

If I were to learn how to code to work on modding this what would I have to learn?

Also going off of your stripped down native thingy, do you mean warband or for mount and blade?

Would it be possible to start it from scratch on warband?


Offline nobuo

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Re: A Possible Merge in mods?
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2011, 06:57:55 AM »
You would have to learn how to mod everything, to state the obvious. :P

Go back and read over some of the update posts and see what Fuji did.  Models, scripts, historical accuracy, etc.  Plus Fuji's code isn't lightweight stuff.

Also re: Warband:

Warband is so dramatically different from Native, you would have to essentially start over - from my understanding (I'm sure Ron will correct this if it's wrong).
It really needs to be ported over to 1.xx as that's what it was designed for anyway.  Stripped down Native means taking the 1.0x client and installing the minimum bits and pieces of ONR that will make it run.  Once it's running, then you can add the various storyline pieces and scripts and other things and bug test those.  It's still not easy by any stretch of the imagination, and unless you're very skilled at modding, it's not something you can really just jump in and learn on the fly.