Poll

What should I do to balance archery?

Increase quiver sizes (number of arrows)
12 (33.3%)
Decrease quiver sizes
0 (0%)
Improve speed of bows
8 (22.2%)
Lower speed of bows
2 (5.6%)
Improve bow damage
10 (27.8%)
Decrease bow damage
0 (0%)
Weaken some other insanely powerful weapon (post below)
0 (0%)
Create stronger PC and weaker NPC bows/arrows
3 (8.3%)
Do nothing
1 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 1

Author Topic: What to Do with Archery  (Read 25566 times)

nihilocrat

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2007, 11:11:01 AM »
For one thing, I do envision Honseli using something similar to the Chinese... dao, was it? The light straightsword equally famous for being impossible to forge and to wield... Unfortunately, my Internet connection just took a partial vacation, so I can't get to Wikipedia to double-check...)

I figure you might have gotten a chance to double-check by now, but you're thinking of a jian, which I've heard called a "tai-chi sword" sometimes. If you're familiar with Soul Calibur, it's what Xianghua uses (and Hwang Seong uses a dao). The jian is best as an infantry weapon and the dao as cavalry: the dao closely resembles a scimitar or sabre, and after handling a wooden dao IRL, I can say it's amazingly top-heavy and thus best for slashing from horseback and not for thrusting or parrying on foot. The jian is balanced a whole lot more, so if you implemented such a weapon I would suggest making it a very fast but comparatively low-damage weapon.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2007, 06:47:11 PM »
For one thing, I do envision Honseli using something similar to the Chinese... dao, was it? The light straightsword equally famous for being impossible to forge and to wield... Unfortunately, my Internet connection just took a partial vacation, so I can't get to Wikipedia to double-check...)

I figure you might have gotten a chance to double-check by now, but you're thinking of a jian, which I've heard called a "tai-chi sword" sometimes. If you're familiar with Soul Calibur, it's what Xianghua uses (and Hwang Seong uses a dao). The jian is best as an infantry weapon and the dao as cavalry: the dao closely resembles a scimitar or sabre, and after handling a wooden dao IRL, I can say it's amazingly top-heavy and thus best for slashing from horseback and not for thrusting or parrying on foot. The jian is balanced a whole lot more, so if you implemented such a weapon I would suggest making it a very fast but comparatively low-damage weapon.

I'm going to agree with your definitions but not your assessment.  I left my Chinese broadsword (dao) with my brother last time I was in the States, so it's been a while, but I'm going to say your wooden sword did not give the real weapon due credit.  Being shorter than most other major swords, I found the broadsword to be amazingly nimble.  It was short (19 inch blade, plus 12 inches of handle), and balanced like a falchion or Saracen sword - not at all like a thin saber (long, but with a single hand grip).  The cutting power of such a short blade was pretty astounding as well - on par with the much longer Japanese katana.  However, you would have to get close to use it properly - hardly suitable from horse.

The Chinese longsword (Jian), on the other hand, is more like its European counterparts.  Long and straight, and subsequently a little nose-heavy.  (Becoming increasingly nose-heavy with increased length, I should add.)  Its primary function was increased reach - useful from horse or when dueling, or to a lesser extent, to compete with polearms.  Its length does not seem to substantially improve its cutting power.  The double edge design can prove dangerous to the wielder if used in extreme close quarters.

Those were my immediate impressions of the blades, and subsequent test cuts and practice more-or-less confirmed my suspicions.

Tai-Chi, as a demonstration and meditation art rather than combat training, uses tinfoil blades that in no way reflect on the actual weapons they were intended to represent.

dulahan

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2007, 12:55:26 PM »
A trained horse archer should be devastating.  The Mughals (Yes, I said Mughals, not Mongols.  Though I'd guess it applies equally well) were said to be able to hit a tea cup at full gallop from a hundred yards away.  That's pretty impressive.

And there's a case mentioned in Chinese History of a group of 3 Xiongnu hunters practically destroying a MUCH larger Chinese force simply by hanging back and plinking away at them with their bows.  And this was before the invention of stirrups.

So my suggestion?  Don't 'nerf' horse archery, but give the infantry the means to deal with them if they're equipped right.  Whether that be shields or more bows for themselves.  I've played TLD, and been able to wipe out great hosts mostly on my own (Though generally not via horse archery, rather by simple sword/lance and horse).  And the only thing that threatened me were large numbers of archers, and long spears - but even those spears just took a bit of careful fighting to get around.


EDIT:  I should caveat, Horse Archers should be devastating in the right terrain.  If they're in heavilly wooded areas or very rough terrain, it's going to be a lot harder to pull what the Xiong Nu did.  If not impossible.  But an infantry force without good archery, shields, and/or light  cavalry defense in open plains?  They're going to get slaughtered by Horse Archers.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 12:58:09 PM by dulahan »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2007, 04:49:03 PM »
We're putting in the RCM.  Horse archers should get both realistic strengths and weaknesses.  I got them pretty close in ONR, so this shouldn't be much harder.

However, at the moment, we're waiting on concept art.

Ron

Offline ex_ottoyuhr

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2007, 09:35:03 PM »
I apologize for having taken such an enormous time to respond to this or much of anything else -- at the present I'm working simultaneously on reworking the weapons to implement the RCM, plus descriptions of clothing, armor etc. for concept art(and note that I do have a concept artist lined up at long last), and a large project at work to boot -- so I'm afraid I've let the board go pretty seriously to seed. Incidentally, yeah, next release is going to be enormous -- the siege system may be a couple of releases down the pipeline, but...

Upthread, I was thinking of the jian, just used the wrong word. I think my assumptions of how the jian handled vis-a-vis the dao were mostly like nihilocrat's -- thanks for warning me, Ron. I'm really pretty surprised that the jian would be that usable on horseback, though -- I'm familiar with backswords and with the 19thC straight sabers, but I'd thought, especially from the way it's wielded on foot, that the jian would have been a pretty impractical weapon on horseback...

(Also, I noticed on Wikipedia a type of Chinese straight saber with a blade shaped like a willow leaf -- Ron, do you know anything about how that would handle?)

And I'm definitely not doing anything else about horse archery prior to the RCM conversion. (Or after it, either. :))

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2007, 12:04:18 AM »

(Also, I noticed on Wikipedia a type of Chinese straight saber with a blade shaped like a willow leaf -- Ron, do you know anything about how that would handle?)

What the devil?  Can you get me a picture of this thing?  Preferably a picture of a real one, not a sketch?  If I knew what you were talking about ....


Nethoras

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2007, 06:14:13 PM »
Yeah bows are a bit over powered, thae fact of the matter is bows were not meant for presision sniping, they were meant for large volleys consisting of at least several dozen men, I have no problem with the accuracy in native, but the damage bows do is way to high, usually I find arrows do more damage than a sword wihich is completly untrue.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2007, 06:22:40 PM »
Yeah bows are a bit over powered, thae fact of the matter is bows were not meant for presision sniping, they were meant for large volleys consisting of at least several dozen men, I have no problem with the accuracy in native, but the damage bows do is way to high, usually I find arrows do more damage than a sword wihich is completly untrue.

Check out the RCM mods - ONR, Mesoamerica, or the RCM retrofit to Native.  That's what we're going to... if the concept art and models ever get ready, so I can convert the system.

The whole Native damage scale is screwed up ... best plan is just to scrap it and start over.


Offline Oldtimer

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2007, 12:47:43 AM »
Yeah bows are a bit over powered, thae fact of the matter is bows were not meant for presision sniping, they were meant for large volleys consisting of at least several dozen men, I have no problem with the accuracy in native, but the damage bows do is way to high, usually I find arrows do more damage than a sword wihich is completly untrue.

Hi all,

that`s the essence of it. HA done individually should be almost powerless. IMO efficiency of archery in RL is because of area saturation effect(achieved by a mass of archers) and not some insane marksmanship.
As this is not a game of big armies and units, IMO the game simulates archery effects somewhat better now by reducing the effects of individual HA but a few NPC archers neatly lined up and volleying are too powerful still. Try to shoot them with your bow... They will pelt you and even if you have a good armour you will be stunlocked and unable to respond.

Let`s face it, in RL small numbers of archers should be worthless against any shield equipped melee troops. Shooting at horses? Pointless if the archers are few as they are.

I say go realistic, sell your bow and get yourself javelins or throwing axes. That will do the trick!
Or , for those that just can`t abstain from riding around with with a bow, reduce the accuracy of NPC archers greatly.

Regards, Oldtimer

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2007, 02:16:51 AM »
That may be overstated.  The Japanese samurai made quite a point of the power of a few horse archers, provided tactics were tailored to fit the weapon.

Another thing the RCM usually does is arm infantry with some form of thrown weapon (stones, if nothing else).  This makes horse and javelin less effective than you might think, because you can't just ride up and pick them off execution-style.  It also reduces the power of horse archers, unless they either keep the speed or the range high.  When we get it imposed on ASLOW...

But bows can be quite accurate.  I know that from experience.  They are not purely volley-fire.  The volley fire idea comes from extreme long shots against enemy formations ... and M&B can't model those, because the M&B game engine draws humans as a speck at more than 100 paces.  (Check the range numbers on the training ground - the target that looks like about 7 miles reads like 87 meters.)  That's a bit of an issue of the game engine, that we can't simulate the 300 yard shots.  (Would be nice if we could.)


Offline Oldtimer

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2007, 08:05:21 AM »
That may be overstated.  The Japanese samurai made quite a point of the power of a few horse archers, provided tactics were tailored to fit the weapon.

Another thing the RCM usually does is arm infantry with some form of thrown weapon (stones, if nothing else).  This makes horse and javelin less effective than you might think, because you can't just ride up and pick them off execution-style.  It also reduces the power of horse archers, unless they either keep the speed or the range high.  When we get it imposed on ASLOW...

But bows can be quite accurate.  I know that from experience.  They are not purely volley-fire.  The volley fire idea comes from extreme long shots against enemy formations ... and M&B can't model those, because the M&B game engine draws humans as a speck at more than 100 paces.  (Check the range numbers on the training ground - the target that looks like about 7 miles reads like 87 meters.)  That's a bit of an issue of the game engine, that we can't simulate the 300 yard shots.  (Would be nice if we could.)



Hi Ron,

I quite agree that bows can be very accurate. But that requires yours not being shot at, which may be OK for assassins and in ambush, not in a field skirmish/battle.

I can`t speak abt. RCM as I have not tested it.

BTW, you point out one of the gravest deficiencies in M&B engine, the distance/size relation. I fear this will never be addressed, though.

Regards, oldtimer

Wagrim Nelethain

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2007, 01:16:52 PM »
If we look at history,archers usually brings 70-80 arrows to battle..I think,we can carry 70-80 bows..

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2007, 04:51:26 PM »

Hi Ron,

I quite agree that bows can be very accurate. But that requires yours not being shot at, which may be OK for assassins and in ambush, not in a field skirmish/battle.

I can`t speak abt. RCM as I have not tested it.

BTW, you point out one of the gravest deficiencies in M&B engine, the distance/size relation. I fear this will never be addressed, though.

Regards, oldtimer

Play some of the RCM mods.  ONR and Mesoamerica are now using it in released versions.  (Still working on the Holy War beta.) 

I've never tried to use a bow while being shot at ... I've used a bow, and I've been shot at, but never at the same time.  I have used a bow plenty under hunting conditions, i.e. against moving targets and such.  It does get a lot harder than target shooting.

If we look at history,archers usually brings 70-80 arrows to battle..I think,we can carry 70-80 bows..

The Japanese samurai carried 24 arrows.  Only the Mongol hordes carried 70 ... causing a certain monk named Benedict to write that each one of them "carries enough weapons for three or four warriors."

Cirdan

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2007, 08:57:05 AM »
But the mongols carried several different types of arrows, each intended for different targets, ranges, whatever. So, they didn't have 70 arrows they would shoot in any given situation, but whatever happened they'd have a dozen or two arrows suited to it. However, I suspect there would be beasts of burden (or whatever) loaded with spare arrows, to which the archers would return when they needed more. Note that with arrows, the problem is not so much weight as bulk--there are only so many quivers you can strap to your body before they get in your way.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2007, 09:31:14 AM »
The Mongol horde was crazy.  They carried a couple of different bows, two dozen each of three different kinds of arrows, and two or three blades and/or axes ... and that was their "light" cav.  The heavy horse added polearms and a couple of extra axes to that list.  They must have looked like some kind of a joke gone wrong.

In the 1991 Gulf War, the U.S. Army failed completely to plan for issuing infantry weapons by squad ... so they responded by issuing weapons based on who qualified with them, from lists.  This worked pretty well for regular infantry.  However, the technical guys, who spent all of their time in classes learning how to maintain equipment, qualified with every standard weapon on the field.  Therefore, all the support troops ended up being assigned to carry 27 weapons systems.  (Had a buddy from high school that was in that war ... he was a communications guy, and ended up with enough weapons for half a platoon.  He couldn't even walk and drag all of his gear - his partner had to go get their Humvee just to transport everything.)

I suspect the Mongol Horde was guilty of similar bad planning.