Poll

What should I do to balance archery?

Increase quiver sizes (number of arrows)
12 (33.3%)
Decrease quiver sizes
0 (0%)
Improve speed of bows
8 (22.2%)
Lower speed of bows
2 (5.6%)
Improve bow damage
10 (27.8%)
Decrease bow damage
0 (0%)
Weaken some other insanely powerful weapon (post below)
0 (0%)
Create stronger PC and weaker NPC bows/arrows
3 (8.3%)
Do nothing
1 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 1

Author Topic: What to Do with Archery  (Read 26851 times)

Offline ex_ottoyuhr

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What to Do with Archery
« on: February 03, 2007, 11:24:20 PM »
Context:

Over on the Taleworlds forum, Rover109 alerted me that horse archery is very underpowered for the player (although regarding other mods, I've heard wild stories from Middle-earth about unassisted players taking out greater hosts of Isengard :)), and Tuckles added the disclaimer that it's not so weak for NPCs. So, does anyone have strong thoughts on what I should do here? (Or any thoughts, for that matter. Click away!)

Feel free to post here clarifying your thoughts -- but please don't vote for all nine options at once. :) But if you're voting for a bifurcated structure of PC and NPC archery, it would be nice to know what in particular you'd like to see different between them.

Tuckles

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2007, 07:49:48 AM »
Heya.

Yeah, I think quiver size and damage are the biggest improvements necessary for the bow.

I mean, 18 damage war bow? Also, I know archers bring a lot more arrows into battle, not just 54.

Offline Fisheye

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2007, 07:57:08 AM »
I think the best way to nerf Horse Archery is to reduce the effects of the skill.

Each time you enter battle, just read out the PC's HA skill and set it to half, restore when battle is done.

Then you can have normal stats for bows and quivers, thus not nerfing foot archery.


Rover109

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2007, 08:55:38 AM »
Thats an interesting approach Fisheye.  But this mod seems to put shields on almost all mounted units and footmen generally have vry few shields but obscene 2H weapons.  Additionally most advanced horsemen sport bow or javelin.  I personally found horse archery to be devestating in TLD and Band of Warriors mod but not so much in this mod.  For me the javelin has been more effective.  Increasing quiver size and speed would compensate for the javelins increased speed and ability to have your shield at hand. 

One way of nerfing the horse archers in ASLOW would be to take away their shields.  Making them more prone to foot archers and fast melee horse. 

Offline ex_ottoyuhr

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2007, 05:27:55 PM »
Hmm. I don't know that I like the idea of taking away shields from the mod's horse archers -- my model was for the basic cavalry to be sword and shield plus some bonus, so that Sivaics have better armor, Lunnais have lances, and Ajarines and Karachines have bows. I think that you're right, the presence of shields means that bows need to get a lot stronger -- I'll probably aim to put the stronger bows' damage levels up around the strength of high-powered swords next release...

(As an aside, I'm increasingly discovering that unless you're fighting in Lun, this is a bad mod in which to be a lancer. Sivaic and Aimarine infantry eat warhorses for breakfast (and somehow or another, Aimarine swordsmen appear to have a longer reach than a couched lance :P), and of course the Ajarine and Karachine knights will just turn around in the saddle and headshot you just as you're getting close in. Yeah, I'm definitely improving bows next time through -- there needs to be some strong weapon for the player, after all...)

However, I'm leaving the poll up for a while -- I want to see what more people think on the matter.

Fisheye, thanks a lot for looking in; and Tuckles and Rover109, welcome aboard the... um... board. :)

Papa Lazarou

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2007, 02:59:23 AM »
Personally I don't think bows should be made faster, the current rate of fire in M&B seems crazily rapid to me. Accuracy could possibly go up a little (it was ok for my horse archer [level 1 even]). Damage seems the key to me.

Merentha

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 11:31:02 AM »
Part of it is the very high armor values that the high-level cavalry tend to have.  Since this game takes a less realistic, and more traditional rpg, approach to damage (look at silver sabres), the armor, too, can become very high.  Unfortunately, bow damage doesn't appear to scale like sabre damage does.  Adding higher-end, more damaging bows (similar to Darkmod's unique bows) would help alleviate this problem.

As to the HAs running roughshod over orc armies in tLD, its because the orcs don't have a significant cavalry contigent to bother the HA.  They can run in, shoot up the infantry, then when they're out of all their arrows, can simply retreat and reingage.  Time consuming, but possible.  That's not as feasible in ASLOW, since an army is required if you want to take a city, and since cavalry is far more prevalent.

jhmanter

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 03:46:26 PM »
Regarding this mod and M&B in general, I suggest that all ranged accuracy should be decreased, especially for lower skill levels. That would bring lots of realism. IRL I have tried recurve bow and japanese bow and couldnt hit anything over 20m away! It takes years to master ranged combat, much longer than learning to whack thing with a mace IMHO.

Papa Lazarou

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 06:11:02 PM »
I agree jkmanter. However, in order to make archery worth using (and fun), it seems to me that it has to be like this in terms of accuracy. Maybe if they changed the way inaccuracy was modelled in game it could work better (i.e. holding an arrow longer would increase its accuracy further, or a smaller crosshair but it wobbled on-screen, etc.), but right now this could be least worst.

Merentha

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 10:56:15 PM »
Regarding this mod and M&B in general, I suggest that all ranged accuracy should be decreased, especially for lower skill levels. That would bring lots of realism. IRL I have tried recurve bow and japanese bow and couldnt hit anything over 20m away! It takes years to master ranged combat, much longer than learning to whack thing with a mace IMHO.
Archery skill 60 seems to approximately equal about 6 weeks of training for 2 hours a day, based on my personal experience with teaching archery.  I'll do some tests tomorrow in the game, its been ages since I've actually played a low-level archer.

jhmanter

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2007, 03:01:56 AM »
Quote
Archery skill 60 seems to approximately equal about 6 weeks of training for 2 hours a day

 :shock:

Show me a person who can make a 600 feet head shot with a short bow after 6 weeks of training and I'll show you that Robin Hood lives! Because thats what you can do with archery skill 60 in game. No offense, but medieval bows are not as accurate as modern bows with fibreplastic arrows and all.

Quote
in order to make archery worth using (and fun), it seems to me that it has to be like this in terms of accuracy

 :P Its fun when you are the sniper.
Less fun when you are the infantryman trying to charge those damn snipers.  ???

I'd like to see the crosshair a bit bigger and trajectory of an arrow less flat. That way archery would be like it was with the english bowmen. 300 feet away you could only fire high arcs at the general direction of the enemy, hoping to hit something by luck. 30 feet away you could put an arrow to mans chest, maybe even headshot.
Infantry would then be a battlefield core unit, as it always has been.  >:D
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 03:13:51 AM by jhmanter »

Tuckles

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2007, 03:26:31 AM »
Quote
Show me a person who can make a 600 feet head shot with a short bow after 6 weeks of training and I'll show you that Robin Hood lives! Because thats what you can do with archery skill 60 in game. No offense, but medieval bows are not as accurate as modern bows with fibreplastic arrows and all.

Well, mount&blade IS fantasy after all.
I mean, it wouldn't be fun if you wasted all your arrows with only one of them hitting an enemy in the arm dealing 0~1 damage.

I think the accuracy is lowered enough though. I mean, I can barely hit any in a mob of horsemen (awfully common in this mod) for every 3~5, I hit one guy causing around 3 damage. And just a couple of minutes into the fight, I run out of arrows. it really should be strengthened, and the quiver should be enlarged. That's all I think bows need.

Cirdan

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2007, 08:52:22 AM »
Jhmanter: infantry is a core unit for any army because it's cheap and easy to raise in large numbers and it's capable of fighting effectively on any terrain. If archers can get potshots at unsupported infantry, the infantry will take more losses than the archers even if they do manage to close. If cavalry can mount a charge, they are, man for man, at a huge advantage over infantry. But you can have loads of infantry, meaning you can generally overwhelm "better" troops through sheer weight of numbers, and of course, if the cavalry can't charge or the archers are surprised, then we all know what will happen. However, for the leader of a small warband (as portrayed in M&B) it is more efficient to recruit the more "elite" troop types (such as cavalry) and then choose your battles.

Merentha

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2007, 09:30:31 AM »
jhmanter-archery skill 60 is fairly innacurate.  Go to the training grounds (where it gives you your distance) and try and hit the far target.  You won't, its that simple.

Edit:  With a 57 skill and a 1 in power draw, I was hitting the target 31 yards away about half the time.  That's worse than I shoot in real life, and about equal to what I was shooting after those 6 weeks, where I could get 50/60 points at 20 yards, and about 20/60 at 30.  Basically, the baseline skill is fine, its that skill and accuracy ramps up far too quickly.  Of course, that happens in all the other skills ingame as well.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 09:38:12 AM by Merentha »

Offline Fisheye

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Re: What to Do with Archery
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2007, 01:21:49 PM »
Please don't make it so that I have to play M&B full-time, for 50 years (and if I screw up I actually, physically, die), just to get decently good at killing stuff. ;)