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Author Topic: Suggestions  (Read 27881 times)

bryce

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2007, 07:25:42 PM »
ah total history bending you say? like a what if scenario? hmm that sounds very interesting, I don't know how much of a pain it'll be though, but yeah it's a good idea

Yeah, I think if they had been winning that would eventually have happened.  I guess the only question is how things are different if you start as spanish (if that is possible).

Offline LCJr

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2007, 09:34:10 PM »
The last 0.751 version I played I felt had the Spanish rival arriving too soon.  I believe at two weeks after campaign start.  I tried several different strategies and simply wasn't able to deal with a 90 man Spanish army in that short space of time.  That was assuming I could even find him.  Several times I wouldn't be in the immediate area of his landing and he would take off after the nearest Cortez force.  Cortez's Spainiards would usually be 40+ strong and so would run away with the rival giving chase.  Of course with the way movement works in M&B they would almost never catch the Cortez force and end up somewhere in southern Argentina.  In these cases I'd get the Spanish faction defeated message before I could even find the rival army.

Offline guspav

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2007, 02:40:30 AM »
I have delayed Diego Velazquez's army for this version, it'll appear on day 15 (was day 8 before) so you'll have plenty of time to strengthen up, DV's army will be about 50% stronger though, but you should be able to deal with them in 2 weeks game time, it's a decent time frame to get a good army. I am thinking that due to this stupid bug that doesn't allow heroes' capture, I'll make DV's army neutral towards spaniards so you woun't have to be chasing them all over the map (or at least not that much) and not risk losing that hero (or the reward you get for turning him over to Cortes)

Offline LCJr

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2007, 06:16:36 PM »
Velazquez was around 90+ before so you're thinking of upping his party to 130+?  What's your estimate on how big of an army  the player will need to be able to deal with Velazquez?

Offline guspav

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2007, 12:32:05 AM »
well that'd depend on your skill really, but I'd say a 60-80 strong army should be able to handle him with a good general (that is, YOU :D)
if you want numbers, here they come, straight from the py file:

regular footmen: 30-50
regular crossbowmen:30-50
regular arquebusiers: 30-40
regular horsemen :20-30
regular pikemen and halberdiers 30-50
generals 1

that's a 141- 221 army.. MASSIVE
 
sounds tough.. and really it IS tough, but remember that historically Cortes was heavily outnumbered, he was the greater general though :D
Oh and remember that every single prisoner you take in that battle you'll be able to recruit, so you could get from this: a very good reward in xp, gold and faction points, a new hero (or more xp and gold) and lots of free spanish soldiers. Also note that all troops in this army are regulars so if you face it with elites and veterans it will be a lot easier, if you dare to fight them with peasants then I hope you have cheats enabled and a quick finger  >:D

« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 12:39:08 AM by guspav »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2007, 12:53:10 AM »
... and the rest of the story.  If your general (that's you  :shock:) utterly sucks, then the outcome is rather predetermined.


--------------------------------------

Coming back to that earlier "what if" scenario ... after a given period of time, it seems like horses would occasionally be appearing among the native populations.  One of the quests was to bring horses to a native chief.  Presumably the steel weapons and armor have found their way into the native markets by trade or theft ... after a while, the horses should arrive too, first in very limited numbers and then increasing if the game goes on long enough. 

After all, steel weapons require some infrastructure - mining, smelting, whatever.  Any farmer can convince adult horses to produce baby horses under controlled enough conditions that the farmer can keep the baby horses... domestication of livestock was not new to the Mexia, even if they had never seen a horse before. 


On the note of a what-if ... if playing natives, and the Spanish faction were wiped out.  The logical outcome would be, after a while, for a *new* Spanish/other European "faction" to arrive.  Presumably, the new group would be under different command, and would therefore start out more or less neutral (as they would be nervous about repeating the mistakes of their earlier expeditions).  This WAS generally what happened when European expeditions failed ... in not much time, someone else tried the same thing again.


Unrelated - eventually maybe we can get the arenas converted to Aztec ball courts.  Maybe we can even get them to use the head of their enemy as the ball.  Their games were generally as brutal as a combat arena anyway.

-------------------------------------

BTW, I will get the halberds working within proper game balance some time this week.  It's been a crazy week, and going to get worse, but I will MAKE time for that, no matter what.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 01:17:00 AM by Ron Losey »

Offline LCJr

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2007, 09:21:09 AM »
well that'd depend on your skill really, but I'd say a 60-80 strong army should be able to handle him with a good general (that is, YOU :D)
if you want numbers, here they come, straight from the py file:

regular footmen: 30-50
regular crossbowmen:30-50
regular arquebusiers: 30-40
regular horsemen :20-30
regular pikemen and halberdiers 30-50
generals 1

that's a 141- 221 army.. MASSIVE
 
sounds tough.. and really it IS tough, but remember that historically Cortes was heavily outnumbered, he was the greater general though :D
Oh and remember that every single prisoner you take in that battle you'll be able to recruit, so you could get from this: a very good reward in xp, gold and faction points, a new hero (or more xp and gold) and lots of free spanish soldiers. Also note that all troops in this army are regulars so if you face it with elites and veterans it will be a lot easier, if you dare to fight them with peasants then I hope you have cheats enabled and a quick finger  >:D


   

With .808 troops level slower but still maybe in 15 days you could your recruits up to a decent level. Again unless you've made changes to starting characters your probably not going to start higher than charisma 12, leadership 4 allowing a max of 37 troops.  Again this would mean spending all your points on charisma and leadership so your other stats and skills will suffer.  And you won't be able to afford that many right away, assuming that many recruits will be available.

Unless you're changing the effect of leadership 62 men would require a minimum of 21 Charisma and 7 Leadership.  This will basically reduce your character development to gain level,raise charisma, raise leadership if possible, recruit more troops, kill everything you can find and repeat.

Assuming zero losses, which I don't think is going to happen, and you have the money will there be 60 Spanish recruits available in 15 days?  If not you'll have to recruit/rescue natives which isn't always a bad thing.

Offline guspav

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2007, 11:20:58 AM »
yeah, you may be right about cha, I'll have to look into that.
About spanish recruits you might get 60 (if you don't lose too many in the meantime that is), but recruiting natives is also recommended, since they aren't really weaker than spaniards, their armor is weaker but they have higher athletics and agility and, in the case of totonacs, they do get some european equipment as well

Offline LCJr

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2007, 11:46:56 AM »
Check my math, but I'm pretty sure the formula for max. party size is 5+charisma+(leadershipx5).

Offline Hellequin

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2007, 06:01:01 PM »
You can alter the x5 for Leadership, though.  It's in the mod's module.ini file.  So if you want slightly bigger armies, maybe make it x7 or something.

Offline LCJr

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2007, 12:48:59 PM »
I saw that, but then the question is what effect would that have on the rest of the games balance?

Offline guspav

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2007, 01:08:55 PM »
good point, I don't think it'll be too dramatic.. it's just a matter of beta testing..
for the time being leadership effects have been increased to 7 and 2 extra charisma points will be raised in the beginning of the game

it would be rather nice if all beta testers reported something though, I am taking care of everything again..

Lord Adler

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2007, 02:24:34 PM »
What do you want reported? We've pretty much covered all bugs and such for the current version. If you're looking for balance issues...well, Ron is the man to ask about that.

I can offer some insight for the party size. I ALWAYS modify the module.ini file to increase the leadership skill bonus to x10. That makes is easier to amass your forces and stay alive until you level up some. Also, when I play my maxed out character, having 200 men is pretty awesome. But do we want players having 200 men? Probably not. But x7 or x8 wouldn't hurt one bit. Having the capability to field a large army is one thing, actually recruiting and maintaining such a force is quite another matter.

I think we're all just waiting for the next update.

Offline LCJr

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2007, 05:26:54 PM »
Allow me to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong.  Why should balance issues be soley up to Ron?  Sure a lot of betatesting is bug and exploit hunting but part of it is also giving your impressions of gameplay. Things like the start was too easy/hard, just right or the middle section wasn't interesting because of x, y and z.  And to give an accurate impression the game should be played unmodified as delivered.

Sorry for butting in and I'll shut up now.

Offline guspav

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2007, 06:04:32 PM »
once again you're right LCjr

the point of beta testing is not only to find bugs but to see if game mechanics are working nicely and even after having 6 beta testers I keep finding little bugs here and there, which I may add, I have mostlyl found myself. Besides most of you are also beta testing the combat model and comments about how it's working are very scarce. Now I know some people haven't got much time, but for instance, Lord Adler, if you thought the leadership had to be tweaked, why didn't you say so in the first place?
My point here is the following: if you have agreed to cooperate, I will be expecting all of you to do so, a beta tester position is not just to play around with a buggy pre release, but it is also to make the mod better (and find all the bugs you can)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 06:35:46 PM by guspav »