Author Topic: Ship Balance Notes  (Read 10713 times)

Thexare

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Ship Balance Notes
« on: March 14, 2010, 01:18:39 PM »
The Civilian Shuttle is inferior to the Mercenary Shuttle in every way, but the Mercenary Shuttle has the same price. Suggest either making the Merc Shuttle more expensive or giving the Civ Shuttle something to compensate (low-grade medbay?).

Some fighters have a similar issue of price and stats not quite lining up, but most of the differences in fighters are just a few points of speed here and there. If you want I can go through and make a list of the ships that have this issue and suggest some adjustments.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 01:31:34 PM by Thexare »

Offline Swyter

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2010, 01:36:17 PM »
The Civilian Shuttle is inferior to the Mercenary Shuttle in every way

We are looking for people [Great beta testers] that can help us to re-balancing the game, so if you can make an excel spreadsheet with some of the correct values we can fix it in 6 minutes.  :)

Hey, are you interested?

Edit: sorry for the vomitive grammar  :-\
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 01:50:20 PM by Swyter »
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Offline Vector

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2010, 02:40:22 PM »
The ships are only half complete, I've still got another 15 to make.
So imagine there will be alot of changes to the ship system once these models are introduced.

Thexare

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 04:04:06 PM »
The Civilian Shuttle is inferior to the Mercenary Shuttle in every way

We are looking for people [Great beta testers] that can help us to re-balancing the game, so if you can make an excel spreadsheet with some of the correct values we can fix it in 6 minutes.  :)

Hey, are you interested?
Hell, why not? It's not that difficult, so I'll get on that.

I'm no master of balancing, but I'll throw in a few suggestions while charting the problems.

Thexare

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 07:46:12 PM »
Here it is, an .xls (Excel 97-2000 format) in a zip file. Assuming the attachment works right.

Note: This is just a list of the current stats. I have some ideas for improvements (and a rudimentary analysis) in the post. But, like I said, I'm not good at balancing, just noticing when things are a bit off.

Further notes:
Fighters
The Y-Wing is hilariously overpriced. 11,000 credits!

The TIE Fighter is basically the crappiest ship. Which actually seems to fit given that they were the mass-production ship - make that the cheapest fighter (it's already inferior to the Mercenary Fighter.)

The Scyk Fighter and Hutt Patrol Ship are statistically identical. Which is odd given that they're used by the same faction.

Freighters and Shuttles

The Civilian Transport could use something to make it worthwhile. I don't know what ship it's supposed to be, but I would give it a Medical Bay 1-2 upgrade. Maybe swap the Troop Capacity for a 1-2 Trade Computer, too, so you have a defensive/civilian ship and an equivalent combat ship in the Mercenary Shuttle - that change would also keep it distinct from the Imperial Shuttle.

Heavy Capital Ships
Quite the interesting selection you have.

The CIS Star Cruiser is the ultimate all-around ship, with good stats in everything but Speed (which all heavy caps suck at). Minor correction to my notes in the file, it's actually the only ship with every upgrade.

The Imperial Interdictor-class Star Destroyer is quite good in its own right, gaining some speed (losing one Drive, but overall faster I think), and singularly dedicated to the task of finding and killing things. Has the best Troop Capacity and a tie for the best Combat Computer.

The Rebels have Mon Cal Cruiser which has the best Medical Bay and Scanners available, and a tie for the best Combat Computer. And it's faster than the Interdictor, although the Interdictor's bonus two points to Leadership (Troop Capacity) might balance it out. Soldiers are expensive.

The Hutt Cruiser seems somewhat lacking in comparison, honestly, and this is reflected in its price being a mere 22,500 compared to the others' 30,000 and up. It does have good marks in Cargo, though, with the best "factory standard" cargo capacity and trade computer, which remains competitive even with fully-upgraded ships.

Light/Medium Warships
I just threw this in for the Mercenary Raider. Highly specialized ship with the best overall prisoner capacity (tied max with Hutt Cruiser, better base).  Nice speed, too. Could probably get away with a slight price increase.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 12:29:08 AM by Thexare »

Offline Swyter

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2010, 08:45:22 AM »
I think you're completely wrong  :!:,  you're a great beta tester  ;), and your incredible effort confirms my words  8)
Thanks and good work, I'm sending it now to Hokie... so the changes will be in the .9.1 release...

With this, the gameplay will reach to new levels of enjoyment!  :)

Thanks again Thexare!
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Offline HokieBT

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 09:56:02 AM »

Thexare, thanks very much for your help with the ship balancing.  A lot of the stats were somewhat randomly assigned by me, so your feedback was a big help.  I took your spreadsheet and comments above and made some changes to the updated version I just posted.   I attached an updated excel sheet to this post, which has a 2nd tab with my changes.  Feel free to give additional feedback if people don't agree with all my changes, etc.

Download 0.9.0.1 - http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=809

Also, we can make other tweaks to the ships, so I'll give a brief overview of how the ship code is designed.

module_map_icons.py - each ship is created as a map icon, so if we wanted to modify the size/scale I would change it here
Code: [Select]
("imperial_star_destroyer",mcn_no_shadow,"Imp_ISD", ship_verylarge_scale, snd_ship_noise, 0.15, 0.173, 0),

module_scripts.py - this is where I set all the variables for the name, price, description, map icon, speed, upgrades, etc.
Code: [Select]

(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_name, "str_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer_name"),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_price, 45000),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_desc, "str_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer_desc"),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_icon, "icon_imperial_star_destroyer"),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_base_speed, 63),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_drive_min, 1),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_drive_max, 3),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_scanner_min, 1),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_scanner_max, 3),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_combat_computer_min, 2),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_combat_computer_max, 4),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_troop_capacity_min, 2),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_troop_capacity_max, 6),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_medical_bay_min, 1),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_medical_bay_max, 2),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_prisoner_capacity_min, 2),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_prisoner_capacity_max, 4),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_trade_computer_min, 0),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_trade_computer_max, 0),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_cargo_capacity_min, 0),
(party_set_slot, "p_spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer", slot_spaceship_cargo_capacity_max, 0),

module_strings.py - this is where I set the name and description for the ship.  I haven't written descriptions for all the ships, so if people want to do that then let me know.   :)
Code: [Select]
("spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer_name", "Imperial Star Destroyer"),
("spaceship_imperial_star_destroyer_desc", "If you're after loads of space for your troops, ^the Imperial Star Destroyer is the way to go."),

Thexare

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 09:50:40 PM »
Y-Wing price is still a bit high for its stats. It's identical to the Scyk except for two less speed, yet it costs 3,000 credits more. It's also inferior to the Z-95 (1pt less speed, 1 less starting Drive) and costs 3500 more.

Suggested reprice:

Z-95: 6,000
Scyk: 6,000 (same as current; costs more to fully upgrade, but slightly better at that point. the Z-95's starting extra Drive makes it even out, making the Z-95 a "starter" ship and the Scyk one for those Cartel players interested in sticking with the fighters)
Y-Wing: 5,500 (its inferiorities are small, but present.)

Outside of that, though, it looks pretty good to my initial review.

Peralta

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2010, 05:48:41 AM »
I don't think price should be based on stats alone...

Some craft were massproduced, while others were unique pieces.
Some craft were beautifully designed, others were created by throwing together any part you could find

Revan Shan

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 05:52:54 AM »
Is it possible to have a maximum of troops in your company depending on your ship? Like for example... having a Z-95 would only leave space for you, with no soldiers or companions.

Thexare

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 10:11:40 AM »
I don't think price should be based on stats alone...

Some craft were massproduced, while others were unique pieces.
Some craft were beautifully designed, others were created by throwing together any part you could find
I disagree, but whatever. Even by your logic, the Y-Wing probably should not cost as much as the A-Wing.

Revan: No one would ever use the fighters then. Remember that the patrol fleets have about 20-30 people despite the Imperial and Rebel ones being fighters - it's probably not just one fighter.

Revan Shan

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 11:05:40 AM »
I don't think price should be based on stats alone...

Some craft were massproduced, while others were unique pieces.
Some craft were beautifully designed, others were created by throwing together any part you could find
I disagree, but whatever. Even by your logic, the Y-Wing probably should not cost as much as the A-Wing.

Revan: No one would ever use the fighters then. Remember that the patrol fleets have about 20-30 people despite the Imperial and Rebel ones being fighters - it's probably not just one fighter.

My idea is... you start with a fighter, and you need to buy bigger ships in order to have companions/soldiers. It would enhance the RPG gameplay, and it would be fun as well to try as a lonely bountyhunter.

Lux CC-4361

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 03:53:43 PM »
Okay, that's YOUR idea.

Remember, in Native, you're always only one man marching, no matter how many people. Or a horseman riding, for that matter.

Offline Swyter

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2010, 05:18:33 PM »
Okay, that's YOUR idea.

Remember, in Native, you're always only one man marching, no matter how many people. Or a horseman riding, for that matter.

Hey Lux, you and Revan are not best friends Isn't?  :green:  I have an idea: Why not go to see the premiere of Barbie 5? You..., Revan..., and the love floating in the air  :P

C'mon... an embrace of reconciliation!  :)
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Revan Shan

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2010, 06:17:23 AM »
Okay, that's YOUR idea.

Remember, in Native, you're always only one man marching, no matter how many people. Or a horseman riding, for that matter.

Yeah, but that's Native. We can make the feeling better... When I get to travel in a hunter with a party of 40 guys it just hurts my eyes.

Offline Shatari

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2010, 09:01:44 PM »
I prefer to be able to fly whatever I like the look of without added penalties. Besides, fighters fly in wings; why shouldn't the various parties do the same?

Revan Shan

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2010, 04:16:50 PM »
I prefer to be able to fly whatever I like the look of without added penalties. Besides, fighters fly in wings; why shouldn't the various parties do the same?

If that was like that... shouldn't it be 'buy a X (whatever) squadron' instead of 'buy an X(whatever)' and be more expensive?

Offline Shatari

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2010, 09:42:44 PM »
If that was like that... shouldn't it be 'buy a X (whatever) squadron' instead of 'buy an X(whatever)' and be more expensive?
If they decide to go for your idea, that would be a good feature.
If they do go with that then maybe we should be able to buy more than one type of ship (probably with the ability to store them on planets and an upkeep fee if they're in use), and assemble a fleet. Add in the eventual (preferably optional) starship combat and you'd have some really cool battles.

Offline HokieBT

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2010, 08:18:09 AM »
well, I understand what Revan is saying, but in general I agree with Shatari that I don't like to significantly limit what the player can do.  By having the different ship upgrades we are somewhat limiting or rewarding the player depending on what ship they choose, but if you really want to fly your army around in a a-wing then you can.  Also, just like native, the map icon is just a representation of an army.  You might choose to have your ship be an a-wing, but the rest of your troops might be flying around in a-wings or a troop transport that is not displayed on the map.  I actually thought about shrinking all the fighter map icons down so then we could have a group of them in a wedge formation or something, or little tie fighters flying next to star destroyers, etc.  This would look cool, but the main problem is this would increase the poly-count of each map icon by 3-5x depending on how many ships we did in the group, and this might hurt performance or cause more crashes, etc.....

Revan Shan

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2010, 09:37:03 AM »
You might choose to have your ship be an a-wing, but the rest of your troops might be flying around in a-wings or a troop transport that is not displayed on the map.

Yeah, but it's a game, and we cannot leave it to imagination. I like the idea of putting the hunter model and a civilian transport together (only if you have a hunter). Only for the player of course, as this would make it non-poly-accouunt-heavy.

Offline Shatari

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2010, 03:32:33 PM »
Yeah, but it's a game, and we cannot leave it to imagination.
Why not? Exercising a little imagination is good for the player, and rewording some of the text (an "A-wing" could change over to "A-wings Squadron") handwaves any oddness about it without having to impact performance.

Offline HokieBT

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2010, 03:35:00 PM »

But then people would say, an A-Wing Squadron only costs 6500 credits !??!?!?!  So then we'd increase the price and another person says, why should I pay 30k credits for an A-Wing and its limited upgrades?!?!   :)

Revan Shan

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2010, 04:28:11 PM »

But then people would say, an A-Wing Squadron only costs 6500 credits !??!?!?!  So then we'd increase the price and another person says, why should I pay 30k credits for an A-Wing and its limited upgrades?!?!   :)

No no no, forget about 1 (imagination) and 2 (squadron). 3 (single hunter but with a civilian transport behind him in the campaign map) is the best solution.

Thexare

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2010, 06:18:58 PM »
If it was the best solution, you wouldn't be the only one in favor.

Lux CC-4361

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2010, 05:54:53 AM »
If it was the best solution, you wouldn't be the only one in favor.

That. I'm for imagination, it worked fine in Native. Don't fix what ain't broken.

Bmont3779

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2010, 06:09:05 PM »
Just picked up the mod this mod a few days ago.  Great mod, I love it.

Here are a few suggestions I have with the ships;

1. increase the speed of the Imperial dreadnought and/or Victory class SD from 60 to about 65 or 68 base.  (Yes I know imperial ships are slower then their rep counterparts but the Imperial dreadnought should not be as slow an IDS)

2. I would like to see the Correllian Corvette added to the game.  It is a very iconic ship in the Star Wars universe. (Who knows this could be in the works)

I have only played the Imperial side so far so I can not comment on anything else.

Also, do you plan to have the Deathstar available for purchase or is it just and NPC ship?

thanks

Thexare

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2010, 09:08:39 PM »

2. I would like to see the Correllian Corvette added to the game.  It is a very iconic ship in the Star Wars universe. (Who knows this could be in the works)
There's a "Corellian Gunship" if that might be what you're looking for? Check the Corellia Shipyard (predictably enough), as each shipyard has different ships.

I'm not an expert on the different SW ships, though, so I'm not sure what exactly is what.

Bmont3779

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2010, 09:28:25 PM »

2. I would like to see the Correllian Corvette added to the game.  It is a very iconic ship in the Star Wars universe. (Who knows this could be in the works)
There's a "Corellian Gunship" if that might be what you're looking for? Check the Corellia Shipyard (predictably enough), as each shipyard has different ships.

I'm not an expert on the different SW ships, though, so I'm not sure what exactly is what.

The Corellian Corvette is the first ship you see in the opening of Episode 4.  It is that ship that Princess Leia is on and that Darth Vader's IDS captures.  It is also nick named the blockade runner.  Here is a link with some info http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corellian_Corvette  and here is a link for the gunship to help explain the differences http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corellian_gunship

Offline Vector

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2010, 07:52:47 AM »
Like i previously said i have currently stopped working on Ship Models until all possibilities of the Map Models causing crashes has been addressed.

Revan Shan

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2010, 08:47:23 AM »
Like i previously said i have currently stopped working on Ship Models until all possibilities of the Map Models causing crashes has been addressed.

There are several low poly models (which include the blocade runner) in the freeware games of 'Battle of Yavin' and 'Battle of Endor'. Vector, you should check those... If oyou want I can send you the models and textures...

Offline HokieBT

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2010, 11:32:46 AM »

well, I think just because the game itself is freeware, it doesn't necessarily mean the models are free for anybody to use.  I don't have any problem looking at models which were created by modders for other games if they say something like "free to use in other mods if credit is given", but I don't necessarily think its a good practice to try and export models from a game.  Now, we could contact the author or something like that, but considering there are a few people here who can model I don't think its really necessary to worry about that at this time.  Especially with more work that needs to be done on other aspects of the game and thinking about warband, etc.

Revan Shan

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2010, 12:00:54 PM »

well, I think just because the game itself is freeware, it doesn't necessarily mean the models are free for anybody to use.  I don't have any problem looking at models which were created by modders for other games if they say something like "free to use in other mods if credit is given", but I don't necessarily think its a good practice to try and export models from a game.  Now, we could contact the author or something like that, but considering there are a few people here who can model I don't think its really necessary to worry about that at this time.  Especially with more work that needs to be done on other aspects of the game and thinking about warband, etc.

I know the guy who made the game. Do you want me to ask him?

Offline Vector

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2010, 01:04:30 PM »
The current map models are fine for the time being, i will add more though once we get more into Warband.
I totally agree with Hokie, it's good to look at other developer's work but importing their art into our module is just bad practice and doesn't do us any favors in the long run.

cctchristensen

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2010, 04:16:46 PM »
Speaking of ship balancing, what is the point of having a cap ship or small fighter? Both of them allow me to access the medical bays and what not, and I don't notice any effect on combat with a cap ship. Why would I pay more for a more expensive ship??

Offline Shatari

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2010, 01:15:09 PM »
Fighters have a higher base speed and more engine upgrades, trade ships tend towards giving you bonuses to your Trade skill, and capital ships allow you to buy bonuses to your Tactics, Leadership, and Prisoner Management skills. If you or your NPCs aren't focusing skills on these bonuses, then buy a ship that does. It allows you to concentrate on a combat party.

MasterFlorin

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Re: Ship Balance Notes
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2010, 07:45:03 AM »
 It would be nice if we had X-Wing and Ventors in game. :D If not a capital ship and some fighters for your NPC buddies. :)