Author Topic: Onin no Ran  (Read 38747 times)

Offline Jamould

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Onin no Ran
« on: March 12, 2010, 05:56:51 pm »
Just wondering if your going to port Onin no Ran to Warband

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 06:52:28 pm »
Haven't even really got it ported to 1.0x yet ... and Fujiwara is having real life time constraints, so it may be a while.

Offline Jamould

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 07:07:12 pm »
Yeah, I know it wouldn't be happening now, I was just wondering if there were plans to do so in the future. Thanks
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 11:10:31 am by Jamould »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2010, 02:29:49 am »
Well, there's no plan to abandon it, if that's what you mean.  We've ported it to every version upgrade before, so effectively, it is expected that it will eventually go on.  It's just that with the lead and only decent programmer bogged down in other concerns, the delay may be a long one (and the attention given it may be intermittent as well).

Offline Conners

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2010, 01:34:53 am »
Too bad it'll be a while till a Onin no Ran Warband is done... In the meant time, Ron, assuming it's possible, would you consider doing a re-stat of weapons/armour for the multi-player component (assuming it's possible)? It's crazy fun duelling other people, but the weird, unrealistic weapons drag down on that enjoyment.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2010, 05:39:41 am »
Actually, that question came up over on the RCM for Native thread....

I would like to get back to that, but I'm a little cramped on time myself as well.  I was rather hoping somebody would provide me with all of the data on what in the combat model has changed ... it could otherwise take a while to find the changes.  Either way, I'll try to get back to it when I can.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 08:43:46 pm »
but the weird, unrealistic weapons drag down on that enjoyment.

Maybe you should be more specific about this, tell Ron what weapons you think are weird/unrealistic, and it would be nice to know what kind of statistics  these weapons should have in your opinion.
Or maybe certain weapons don't belong in the mod at all? It would be good to know what players think of the weapons and armor and their statistics, I have never seen much player feedback besides the occasional person who just comes along to complain and troll about how the RMC is a huge failure or whatever, it's not very constructive.
We might actually get a bit of a discussion about it if we're lucky, the forums have been so very quiet lately... too quiet.
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Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2010, 09:05:43 pm »
Actually, this was mentioned on the other thread ... I have a pretty good idea what weapons stats are screwed up in the new Native Warband.  ALL of them.  Badly.  As bad as Native when I started the RCM project, or worse.  I believe someone described it to me as "utterly screwed up".

The issue that is going to take a lot of time, which I have not been able to get back to, is figuring out exactly how the damage computations have been changed.  Word is some of the data is handled differently, but I have no specifics.  Between computer problems (actually internet service problems, but indirectly...) and real life work to be done, I simply don't have the time and energy to sit down and work through it for several days.  This is of course necessary to adjust the stats, and why the numbers from the last RCM-Native can't just be copied over to the new item data file.

As for what things do or don't belong - Native is a fantasy setting, in the sense that it has no historical setting.  What is or is not appropriate is sort of irrelevant.  I never made any claim that the RCM-Native package was playable long-term (and in fact said it was not), simply because nothing else in the game was balanced to any reasonable standard either.  So even if a conversion is made, it will still be unbalanced, unless the entire item data is reworked ... which would bring it into the "complete mod" category, instead of a demonstration and reference as it was intended.

I will promise that, if and when Fujiwara gets back to ONR, we will make sure that the items are correct for the setting.  But that's a gazillion hours of work from now, so we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Meanwhile, Yeah, I know ... Native Warband is utterly screwed up.  I'll deal with it when I can....

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2010, 09:40:12 pm »
Right.... so it seems things have changed quite a bit with Warband then, I haven't played it yet so I wouldn't know.

I always felt like some things were missing from Native combat, mostly concerning armor penetration.
Like for a musket, it should have no problem with penetrating most armors, but it shouldn't have to need absurdly high damage statistics to do so, a sword wouldn't be very good against armor, but should be able to do more damage against an unarmored or lightly armored target then a musket, it would also be a problem for powerfull crossbows and who knows what else.
It would be fantastic if the armor penetrating power of bullets/bolts/arrows/javelins etc. would rapidly decrease over long range.

I'm also missing a difference in bludgeoning weapons, like a maul would be great for crushing armor, but a wooden staff would suck at it, but because the wooden staff is a bludgeoning weapon it will perform well against light armor even though light armor should be able to absorb the damage, so the difference would be: blunt and crushing... sounds good right? (or am I missing something?).
In my opinion M&B's combat model just doesn't deal with these issues at all (as far as I know anyway).
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 01:16:17 am »
For discussion on that, consider some tests that the SCA and other re-enactment groups did with quarter-staff a few years ago.  They actually found that a six-foot staff would utterly obliterate the light steel they were using for helmets, and even with heavy padding on the weapon, could not be used safely in full-contact sport re-enactment.

Don't underestimate a heavy hardwood staff.  (That doesn't necessarily apply to lighter poles like a spear shaft.)  Other simple but extraordinarily lethal toys that are commonly underestimated include tonfa, nunchuckau, brass knuckles, small hammers and a foot of heavy chain.  Martial arts people also tend to underestimate sai, jitte, and kamae, since much of their demonstration routines tend to make the weapons less effective than if you just handed them to an untrained redneck.

But back on track, the damage numbers and penetration factors are relatively effective, if the numbers are set right.  When I did the RCM for Mesoamerica (in version .80x, I believe), we had the Spanish arquebus performing quite well with regard to realistic penetration and lethality... and reload time, which caused players no end of grief, but such is realism.

Although the ability to add custom damage types would be a nice touch, it doesn't seem nearly as necessary as might be implied.  Creative use of the ones that are currently there will cover most of the holes ... it just requires making some counter-intuitive adjustments.  That's why arrows were set to cut damage and axes to pierce in all RCM mods - it works out on the numbers at the end.

The stuff that really screws up the works are the adjustments that can't be modified easily, like the power strike/draw skills.  They add a lot of confusing variables to the formula.  And somewhere in that mass of number crunching, stuff has no doubt been changed around ... and so the numbers have to be revised to account for this.  That's how the bows ended up with reverse-scaled damage as they moved up in size.

But collecting all of the data on that is a major project.  Literally days of "character whacks target dummy, I write down numbers."  More days of compiling them in my head, because no spreadsheet could ever keep up with all of that.  It's about as much fun as an emergency dental surgery, only slower.

And I haven't played Warband yet either ... I'm just going on what I've been told.  But I knew it would be bad - I remember the screwed-up changes when the game went to .890, and was expecting the same or worse this round.  Word is, however, it may be even worse than I expected.

By the way, penetrating power of javelins doesn't really drop off with range ... it's just that you can't throw a javelin all that far.  And that is one thing I took care of quite well - getting the ranges of thrown weapons down to reasonable.  Also with arrows - penetrating power of an arrow fired straight up is pretty scary when it comes down.  Air resistance just doesn't take that much out of them.  Just that lighter bows don't have that kind of velocity to begin with, and heavier ones are hard to hold and aim.

Anyway, that's why I haven't jumped on the problem ... it's a BIG project, and I don't have time for it at the moment.

Offline Conners

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 02:27:27 am »
Actually, that question came up over on the RCM for Native thread....

I would like to get back to that, but I'm a little cramped on time myself as well.  I was rather hoping somebody would provide me with all of the data on what in the combat model has changed ... it could otherwise take a while to find the changes.  Either way, I'll try to get back to it when I can.
Depending on what you mean, might be a good idea to try it as it is, if you haven't already. Not sure if your internet gives you troubles with it, though--hope not, since it'd be good to play online with you sometime.
Hope your schedule gets easier soon, regardless of the mod :p.


Maybe you should be more specific about this, tell Ron what weapons you think are weird/unrealistic, and it would be nice to know what kind of statistics  these weapons should have in your opinion.

Or maybe certain weapons don't belong in the mod at all? It would be good to know what players think of the weapons and armor and their statistics, I have never seen much player feedback besides the occasional person who just comes along to complain and troll about how the RMC is a huge failure or whatever, it's not very constructive.
We might actually get a bit of a discussion about it if we're lucky, the forums have been so very quiet lately... too quiet.
Well, that seems like more of a question of which weapons AREN'T unrealistic, or if such weapons/armour exists in Warband. They've changed some stuff around, possibly for the better, but it's still Native. Gigantic weapons swing with lightning speed, horses built similarly to cartoon tanks in speed and durability, plus all the subtle details missing that make the RCM great.

I don't really know much about weapons or periods. They all appear to suit their factions, at least. Currently, you don't find much plate in the multi-player battles, though I don't see that as a negative thing (though I still like plate). Notably, a couple of good hits can kill a lightly armoured person, or even a single strong hit. So, it's better in that way, though the armour does seem more of a decoration.
Why not play it and see yourself, now that it's open beta? I'm sure you'll be WAY better at examining it than I.


Actually, this was mentioned on the other thread ... I have a pretty good idea what weapons stats are screwed up in the new Native Warband.  ALL of them.  Badly.  As bad as Native when I started the RCM project, or worse.  I believe someone described it to me as "utterly screwed up".

The issue that is going to take a lot of time, which I have not been able to get back to, is figuring out exactly how the damage computations have been changed.  Word is some of the data is handled differently, but I have no specifics.  Between computer problems (actually internet service problems, but indirectly...) and real life work to be done, I simply don't have the time and energy to sit down and work through it for several days.  This is of course necessary to adjust the stats, and why the numbers from the last RCM-Native can't just be copied over to the new item data file.

As for what things do or don't belong - Native is a fantasy setting, in the sense that it has no historical setting.  What is or is not appropriate is sort of irrelevant.  I never made any claim that the RCM-Native package was playable long-term (and in fact said it was not), simply because nothing else in the game was balanced to any reasonable standard either.  So even if a conversion is made, it will still be unbalanced, unless the entire item data is reworked ... which would bring it into the "complete mod" category, instead of a demonstration and reference as it was intended.

I will promise that, if and when Fujiwara gets back to ONR, we will make sure that the items are correct for the setting.  But that's a gazillion hours of work from now, so we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Meanwhile, Yeah, I know ... Native Warband is utterly screwed up.  I'll deal with it when I can....
Wish I could help here, but I see little ways of doing so  :(.

Get a hacker to hack Warband and tell you how it's computed :lol:? Sadly, besides great analysis, or that, I think one can only wait for someone to look at the modding stuff when Warband is out.

Supposedly the weapon selections could be changed around so that it wasn't TOO insane, if need be. Mostly, I think the RCM Multi-player is VERY worthy of an entire mod. If you could find some modders willing to help you with it, I'd suggest it strongly. I do wonder how "Optional RCM" mods would work with multi-player, whether it'd be by server or need to be a separate mod.

Thanks you so very much, Ron. We all look forward to your achievements of later :shock:!


Right.... so it seems things have changed quite a bit with Warband then, I haven't played it yet so I wouldn't know.

I always felt like some things were missing from Native combat, mostly concerning armor penetration.
Like for a musket, it should have no problem with penetrating most armors, but it shouldn't have to need absurdly high damage statistics to do so, a sword wouldn't be very good against armor, but should be able to do more damage against an unarmored or lightly armored target then a musket, it would also be a problem for powerfull crossbows and who knows what else.
It would be fantastic if the armor penetrating power of bullets/bolts/arrows/javelins etc. would rapidly decrease over long range.

I'm also missing a difference in bludgeoning weapons, like a maul would be great for crushing armor, but a wooden staff would suck at it, but because the wooden staff is a bludgeoning weapon it will perform well against light armor even though light armor should be able to absorb the damage, so the difference would be: blunt and crushing... sounds good right? (or am I missing something?).
In my opinion M&B's combat model just doesn't deal with these issues at all (as far as I know anyway).
There's an Open Beta thread that links you to the download, if you want to see for yourself.

How rapidly do such weapons' penetration might deplete across long distances? Armour penetration seems to work quite well in the RCM already, if only the lack of different ammo types making it a pain on bows and crossbows.

Quarterstaffs notably do less damage either way, of course, so do they really need different damage types? M&B, as you say, really fails to deal with the fine issues of combat it could cater to with its awesome design. Though I guess they're afraid to scare away players stupid enough to think more realistic equals more boring.


For discussion on that, consider some tests that the SCA and other re-enactment groups did with quarter-staff a few years ago.  They actually found that a six-foot staff would utterly obliterate the light steel they were using for helmets, and even with heavy padding on the weapon, could not be used safely in full-contact sport re-enactment.

Don't underestimate a heavy hardwood staff.  (That doesn't necessarily apply to lighter poles like a spear shaft.)  Other simple but extraordinarily lethal toys that are commonly underestimated include tonfa, nunchuckau, brass knuckles, small hammers and a foot of heavy chain.  Martial arts people also tend to underestimate sai, jitte, and kamae, since much of their demonstration routines tend to make the weapons less effective than if you just handed them to an untrained redneck.

But back on track, the damage numbers and penetration factors are relatively effective, if the numbers are set right.  When I did the RCM for Mesoamerica (in version .80x, I believe), we had the Spanish arquebus performing quite well with regard to realistic penetration and lethality... and reload time, which caused players no end of grief, but such is realism.

Although the ability to add custom damage types would be a nice touch, it doesn't seem nearly as necessary as might be implied.  Creative use of the ones that are currently there will cover most of the holes ... it just requires making some counter-intuitive adjustments.  That's why arrows were set to cut damage and axes to pierce in all RCM mods - it works out on the numbers at the end.

The stuff that really screws up the works are the adjustments that can't be modified easily, like the power strike/draw skills.  They add a lot of confusing variables to the formula.  And somewhere in that mass of number crunching, stuff has no doubt been changed around ... and so the numbers have to be revised to account for this.  That's how the bows ended up with reverse-scaled damage as they moved up in size.

But collecting all of the data on that is a major project.  Literally days of "character whacks target dummy, I write down numbers."  More days of compiling them in my head, because no spreadsheet could ever keep up with all of that.  It's about as much fun as an emergency dental surgery, only slower.

And I haven't played Warband yet either ... I'm just going on what I've been told.  But I knew it would be bad - I remember the screwed-up changes when the game went to .890, and was expecting the same or worse this round.  Word is, however, it may be even worse than I expected.

By the way, penetrating power of javelins doesn't really drop off with range ... it's just that you can't throw a javelin all that far.  And that is one thing I took care of quite well - getting the ranges of thrown weapons down to reasonable.  Also with arrows - penetrating power of an arrow fired straight up is pretty scary when it comes down.  Air resistance just doesn't take that much out of them.  Just that lighter bows don't have that kind of velocity to begin with, and heavier ones are hard to hold and aim.

Anyway, that's why I haven't jumped on the problem ... it's a BIG project, and I don't have time for it at the moment.
....Scary :shock:! But now, at least, I know what I want for Christmas xD.

All the weapons you mentioned sounded scary enough to me.

I prefer losing due to long reload times, then using a weapon that was designed by space devils, then remodelled to look like the weapon I'm MEANT to be using. In Fallout 3, when you blast someone in the head with a powerful sniper rifle, not only does his head explode, but his legs fly off.....

Yeah, if it works, no real need to fix it--unless "fixing it" is just organizing it to make it easier.

Be good if you can edit such things with modding--or even make your own stuff of that style. Would give tons of options.

...Ouch.

It can be THAT bad O_O? Would you say the Stun-Kicking and Chamber-Blocking, etc., are part of the worsening, or separate from it?

Would it still not be able to penetrate/dent full-plate armour, with its full velocity?

Yeah, be good to have some help with it, when you do start o.o.



As an extra thing. Now that with Warband, you can press X to change your method of use with the weapon you're wielding (such as using a javelin in melee). This seems like a good way of implementing Half-swording, for whoever could be convinced to try it. Hold sword by blade instead of handle state plus animations. Revamp damage to Piercing or whatever seems right. Change speed and range as makes sense. Half-swording.
Just thought I should mention it, since it's annoying when swords seem totally useless against armour.
Thanks guys.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 06:38:14 am »
Not much actually penetrates well-made metal armor plates (be they "plate armor" or trauma plates integrated into something else).  There are historically two ways to beat full-plate type rigid armors ... one is to just beat the occupant senseless by rattling his head around inside the armor.  The other is field artillery, either explosive mortar or grapeshot.  (Solid cannonball doesn't really take out enough area - it's a better option for structures or ships than massed troops.)  It was the latter that broke the dominance of heavy horse, not man-portable firearms. 

Hanging javelins into such armor would not be easy, but in certain cases it could work - the Spanish complained of Aztec obsidian-tip atlatl darts punching through their armor, and those were breastplates that were "proofed" - tested against a standard-load musket ball before they were sold.  You wouldn't expect that to work.  High cross-sectional density can have funny effects on that sort of thing.

Half-sword moves, even if you're talking about real swords with forward grips (not practice/tournament blunt objects), are more about making the weapon effective at close range, or in some cases making it possible to stab at all (with a blade too heavy to do so effectively in a conventional manner).  It doesn't really change the damage type.  Swords are really only moderately effective against heavy armor.  That is, after all, why you want to wear armor - to deny your enemy use of the most versatile weapons, and instead force him to use a less convenient selection of specialized equipment.

Anyway, I'll have to work through it and see what is there.  An epic battle, I am sure....

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2010, 06:49:03 pm »
How rapidly do such weapons' penetration might deplete across long distances? Armour penetration seems to work quite well in the RCM already, if only the lack of different ammo types making it a pain on bows and crossbows.

Armor penetration for bullets and arrows drops very rapidly as various tests from both the past as well as modern times have shown, but it's not an easy thing to test properly though, because there are a lot of things that should be taken into account that testers often didn't think would be importand to mention, such as the carbon content of the steel plate that was tested. And then of course there would be a big difference between modern mild steel and old mild steel (modern steel is very pure and old steel is not), and if modern spring steel where to be used then the test is completely worthless to begin with as they quite simply didn't have that 400 years ago.

As far as firearms are concerned, old Japanese tests had the following results:
A 9mm caliber firearm (obviously a small caliber as was common for pistols, Japanese muskets are typically 13mm).
1:  24mm wooden board.
2:  48mm wooden board.
3:  1mm iron plate.
4:  2mm iron plate.
At 30 metres they were all pierced through, at 50 metres 1 and 3 were pierced through, the bullet entered the 48mm wooden board for 3 quarters, the 2 mm iron plate just had a dent.

Unfortunately they don't mention the type of firearm used, was it a hoso-zutsu (musket), a tan-zutsu (pistol), or a bajo-zutsu (a carbine fired from the back of a pony, as the name implies).
It also does not tell us the metallurgy of the so called "iron plate", a soft iron plate and a hardened steel plate with a soft iron back would give completely different results :-\

You could also Google second world war anti tank rifles as they occasionally mention armor penetration at different ranges and angles for different calibers of the WWII atr's, it might give you a good perspective on how armor holds up at long range.

As for bow & arrows versus plate armor or maille, check Youtube, there are a lot of... questionable :P tests to be found there, the same goes for crossbows I suppose, I have no idea how thrown weapons would do though.
I'm saying the arrow tests are questionable because testing against modern steel rivetted maille would not have the same result as old slag filled iron rivetted maille. Also, only one third of even the finest Milanese steel plate armors were actually hardened, something to consider when looking at the arrow tests, also consider the power of the bow if they let you know.


Quarterstaffs notably do less damage either way, of course, so do they really need different damage types? M&B, as you say, really fails to deal with the fine issues of combat it could cater to with its awesome design. Though I guess they're afraid to scare away players stupid enough to think more realistic equals more boring.

Yeah, in my opinion they do need to have different damage types, in the game it would make sense if you got hit by a staff and you would be knocked unconscious by it if you lost all your hitpoints, now... along comes the sledgehammer... bang! Your skull should be utterly destroyed (Fallout 3 style ;) ), but the game simply says: well... it's a bludgeoning weapon so your not gonna die when you get hit by it, your just gonna take a little nap instead :shock:
So yes, heavy bludgeoning weapons do need their own "crushing" damage type, although setting the damage to piercing would work, I simply do prefer it to have it's own damage type so the "armor_soak_factor_against_blunt" and the "armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt" could be modified to suit your personal taste for "crushing".
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 06:55:13 pm by Ichimonji Hidetora »
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Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2010, 04:51:31 am »
Blunt and pierce, at least the way the RCM numbers are set up, are identical except for one being fatal and the other not.  (That was .808 standard ... and I put it back in RCM for .890 and following.)  The way I rigged it, weapons likely to kill (i.e. a mace) were pierce, those unlikely to kill directly (sticks) were blunt.  Certain weapons were questionable - a wood mallet, for example, has a large enough striking surface to minimize lacerations ... so it could go either way.  However, since the bleeding damage model is always fatal (minus surgery skill), I just sort of let that absorb the extra randomness.  It was about the best I could do.

And yes, I agree, there are a LOT of questionable tests.  One of my favorites is using modern practice tip arrows to test anything ... since those tips are intentionally designed to minimize penetration.  Even ancient tests were non-standard, and often did not mention what kind of weapon or load was used.  It's tough to recreate that, when several variables are pure guessing.  That's what makes history tough to study ... if all the old data had modern materials specifications on it, anybody could figure it out.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Onin no Ran
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2010, 12:42:50 pm »
Yeah, I can see how a wooden mallet could go both ways, like if you get hit on the head it would kill you, but if it hits your belly then you might just get knocked out (or die later if you get internal injuries/bleeding).
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"