Author Topic: Screenshots  (Read 68910 times)

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2007, 10:54:04 AM »
oh yes stirrups were definately in use for quite a time already. BTW, i have a question to the beta-testers, how are the battles against the Franks? The huge number of seargents armed with spears are probably dangerous foes.

The latest troops file, as soon as Raz gets it distributed, adds assorted thrown missile weapons to various of the lighter infantry.  They're not very efficient missiles, but it prevents missile cav from just using the infantry for target practice.  Combined with lots of spears, it means that horse still have an advantage, but they're not untouchable.

The stirrup, in its European form, was a Roman invention.  It had been around for about a thousand years by the point of the Crusades.  Tracing the spread of its use is hard, but after a thousand years, the whole world was using them.

--------------------------------------------

And the Mamluks were known for sabers - the "Mamluk Sword" (still carried as a parade sword by officers of the United States Marines), although it was probably most popular a little later than the Crusades.  They were also pictured/described using hand axes.  Egypt, after all, has a long tradition of arming warriors with hand axes.  The true power of the Mamluk were as horse archers anyway, and their melee weapons were secondary.

The Ghulam were known for heavy battle axes - the "Ghulam axe" that was so carefully modeled for this mod.  It may have been a clumsy weapon, but it delivered a message.

On those points the mod is as correct as it can be made, given the limited information that has actually survived.  Good screenshots, by the way.


Wood

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2007, 08:19:05 PM »
The latest troops file, as soon as Raz gets it distributed, adds assorted thrown missile weapons to various of the lighter infantry.  They're not very efficient missiles, but it prevents missile cav from just using the infantry for target practice. 

Does this pose problems when ordering troops around on the field? Will they all be classed as infantry or will the minority with ranged weapons be classed as "archers" (ranged troops). Whenever I have a unit of mixed ranged and infantry troops the ranged soldiers tend to interpret "Charge!" as "Shuffle forward slightly between shots". Will this mean that, say, a quarter of my infantry simply will not charge when ordered? I'm sorry to bug you if you already have this solved but I'm curious as to how a single unit with both ranged and non-ranged troops will operate.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2007, 09:06:20 PM »
The latest troops file, as soon as Raz gets it distributed, adds assorted thrown missile weapons to various of the lighter infantry.  They're not very efficient missiles, but it prevents missile cav from just using the infantry for target practice. 

Does this pose problems when ordering troops around on the field? Will they all be classed as infantry or will the minority with ranged weapons be classed as "archers" (ranged troops). Whenever I have a unit of mixed ranged and infantry troops the ranged soldiers tend to interpret "Charge!" as "Shuffle forward slightly between shots". Will this mean that, say, a quarter of my infantry simply will not charge when ordered? I'm sorry to bug you if you already have this solved but I'm curious as to how a single unit with both ranged and non-ranged troops will operate.

Not really sure.  My test fights were all small.  In general, they tend to pause long enough to fire occasionally.  However, the thrown weapons are short enough range that they have to get pretty close to engage anyway.  (Fixed over vanilla, where you could throw a javelin 500 yards.)  Then, if the enemy moves toward them, they switch to melee weapons.  Limited ammo on the thrown weapons should also force most of them to engage within a few seconds, even if they have no intention of getting any closer than absolutely necessary.

The general look should be that infantry pauses briefly to trade a few projectiles before closing, and once they close, occasionally someone will switch back to a missile to increase his reach (like against a passing horse).

I was just trying to stop the comical scene where all of the enemy infantry follow your horse like a bunch of baby ducks, even though they have no chance of catching you.  That was a bug in the AI that just had to be covered. 

So far, both on ONR and here, this trick has done a fair job of cleaning up that AI bug.  Also, the Mesoamerican mod uses mixed missile/infantry, and they seem to attack OK.  Now, I'm not sure how it reads infantry/archers - you may get troops responding to both commands or neither.  (I'm guessing thrown weapons don't classify someone as "archer" - but that's a guess.  Why I didn't add any bows or crossbows to the non-archer infantry.)

But will it screw up a well-timed infantry charge?  Possibly.  That's why we have beta testing.

Saber

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2007, 12:07:24 PM »

The Ghulam were known for heavy battle axes - the "Ghulam axe" that was so carefully modeled for this mod.  It may have been a clumsy weapon, but it delivered a message.

Oh, i guess my mistake then, i've never heard about heave battle axes belonging to the Ghulams. To be honest i am sort of sceptical about such a weapon. I have no doubt that Islamic forces used axes but there surely werent heavy and that big. If we take w look on the Ghulams and Mamluks of the 12th century almost all recruits of the forces would have come from Turkic tribesmen(be they Oghuz, Qipchaq, Turcoman or etc.). We know that the Turkic tribes fought in a nomadic fashion, in which even the heaviest cavalry fought with spear, sabre, bow and arrow, and in some cases wooden maces. Why? Simple not only were these weapons most comfortable and effective, but also because they formed the military trend of the period. Iran(or Middle East's Milan) apart from supplying it's Ghulams supllied many other Islamic states with it's armouries. It's impact we can see in wooden maces and curved sabres(Ayyubid native soldiers, or the non-turkic elements, used and preferred straight swords vs. sabres). Therefore to me, a Ghulam or a Mamluk(and if we decide to divide these into different groups we agree that Ghulams were the hand-to-hand combat force, while Mamluks relied more on their archery skill.), owning heavy battle axes wouldn't make sense.

Even the greatest Islamic warrior of the age, Ayaz the Tall, preferred the spear vs any other weapon, and during the battle between Ayaz men and the Franks, non of his armoured followers owed an axe(or at least it is not mentioned).








Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2007, 12:02:04 AM »

Maybe the term "heavy" on battle axes is being mis-applied.  I mean heavy compared to a hatchet, not heavy compared to an automatic transmission.  Don't get into the fantasy thinking of an axe as big as a stop sign - a heavy hand axe is three pounds tops.

The Arabic peoples used plenty of various axes and maces around the time of the Crusades.  Even if their traditional form of combat was lightly armored cav and sabers, they had to adapt to the heavier armor of the European troops.  (More specifically, the more frequently armored European troops - their individual armor was no heavier, just that a larger percentage of their army was wearing it.)  The various Arabic clubs and maces were quite common, as you will find them in the mod... and are some of the Middle Eastern and central Asian axes, such as the Ghulam Axe in the screenshot.

Due to some minor internet interference, I can't find a picture of one ... "page cannot be displayed" ... but some of these axes have survived and can be seen in museums here and there.  The model seen in the screenshot was in use from the late Roman period to after the Crusades, more or less unmodified.  Seen more often near India on the other side of the old Persian empire (Sassanid Dynasty - source of the term Ghulam - "servant boy"), but still used extensively in the Crusades by troops of the Abbasid Caliphate.

Egypt has a very long tradition of arming shock infantry with hand axes, dating back to the Old Kingdom.  The long, narrow curved sabers (like the "Mamluk sword") are a relatively recent addition - being phased in 10th to 12th century.  Long curved sabers were really not that common in the time of the Crusades.  The straight-blade seif was about the closest thing to a saber in common use.

In general, spears (or related polearms) and bows (or crossbows, and later firearms) were always the first line of defense.  Swords, hand axes, maces, daggers and knives were almost always backup.  Some forces were trained to go to the backup quickly (i.e. the Romans who threw the pilum and then drew swords), while others tried to stay with the primary as long as possible.  The idea is usually not to get that close, if you can avoid it.

Still, the Mamluk and Ghulam, among others, carried hand axes or maces as backup weapons.  This was also the high point of the mace in Europe, much the same way.

Check out the mod.  It will be ready soon.  I think you'll find the number and type of weapons to be pretty accurate.

Landsknecht

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2007, 06:58:57 PM »
First of all, awesome screen shots. I can't wait to see the action live for myself.

As far as the Ghulam axe goes, I agree with Ron. The axe was a viable weapon for the Saracen warrior during this time period. Below are two different examples of axes (or at least axe heads, wood has a bad habit of deteriorating) in museums from Iran dating from just prior to the crusades. The second is largely ceremonial, but at least it goes to show that the axe was a common enough weapon that the elite went through the trouble of making them look pretty.

edit- first is bronze, and is the earlier of the two. Second is iron.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 07:02:31 PM by Landsknecht »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2007, 08:36:01 PM »
There are some excellent decorative axes from the Mamluk Caliphate in Egypt, from a little after the Crusades ... but I couldn't seem to find a picture of one.  The British Museum is supposed to have some, but websites from England are hit-and-miss here in China, so all I got was error messages.

Beautiful weapons.  Magnificent balance.  Nobody did hand axes as good as the Arabs.

Lanky

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2007, 09:40:56 PM »
If I am not mistaken, those pictures are from the British museum. They don't have that large of a selection in their picture files, but they do have them on display because I have seen them.

Landsknecht

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2007, 10:11:28 PM »
The top one is from a private collection in Germany and the lower one is from the British museum. Should have thrown that in, sorry for the lack of references. Those are just a few, like Ron said, some really beautiful stuff came out the middle east at this time period. And not just axes. Armor, swords, shields, the works. Absolutely gorgeous works of art and functional weapons of war. That's why I love the screenshot of the Saracen siege defender that is an up close of the delicate scrollwork and Arabic script on his helm. It really shows the beauty and complexity of period middle eastern arms and armor.

Aqtai

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2007, 05:26:38 AM »
:shock: Wow. Those shields do look realistic. Btw a slight suggestion. One of the Mamluks/Ghulams(?) holds an axe. Correct me if im wrong, but for a multi-functional warrior, which the mamluk was, the axe was a very uncomfortable weapon. For practical and historical reasons i think giving him an Iranian mace would be better.

The mamluks used both axes, warhammers and maces, there are many examples of all of these in some museums:

This is a late 15th century Mamluk axe:



And this picture shows an early 16th century Mamluk warhammer, axe and mace:


These are 16th century Turkish axes:


Obviously all of these are much later than our period, but I can get pictures of earlier weapons given time. :)

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2007, 05:39:21 AM »
Magnificent weapons, aren't they?  Nobody did axes like the Arabs.  As beautiful as they are deadly.

My personal preferred weapon is the Japanese tachi, but I do love the feel of a good axe.

gamerwill253

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2007, 01:51:27 AM »
i would do a lot of screenshots but the game crashes so D:

Landsknecht

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2007, 11:40:26 PM »
Those are some nice axes aqtai, but the dates are much later than the Crusades. By hundreds of years actually. But still good examples of the late weapons, when they were less for combat and more for decoration and signification of rank. That is why the blades are longer and have less depth, and have massive amounts of decoration. In much the same way that the traditional sword evolved into the court rapier in Europe, these axes look slightly different then the ones that should be considered historically accurate for this mod. I'm not saying that Ghulam axes weren't decorated, because they were beautiful, but these examples are a little bit over the top.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2007, 12:03:35 AM »

The 16th century weapons were still very much combat weapons.  Although the ones in those pictures were highly decorated, that is common among museum pieces - usually only pieces belonging to high-ranking officials are well preserved, because they are kept for that purpose.  (A couple of Charlemagne's swords have survived, while the blades used by 9000 other Frankish knights were lost....  I'm sure the Caliph's axe was the same way.)

Nonetheless, having done some practice and test-cutting with axes (and having seen some deadly combat with simple weapons, unfortunately), I would not classify any of those as ceremonial or non-functional.  They look well balanced and well designed, and someone trying to kill you with one would be just about your worst nightmare.  These are lighter hand axes - but just because that is what the museum had ... there were heavier ones too.

Although those are somewhat later than the mod, the designs of axes and maces didn't change that much.  They are good indicators of the type of fighting axes one would see in the time of the Crusades.

Which brings us back to the original point - the Arabic axes in the mod are very well designed, and very historically accurate, and I think everyone will be quite happy with the results.  I was - and I'm usually difficult to impress with things like that.

Saber

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Re: Screenshots
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2007, 09:56:42 AM »
:shock: Wow. Those shields do look realistic. Btw a slight suggestion. One of the Mamluks/Ghulams(?) holds an axe. Correct me if im wrong, but for a multi-functional warrior, which the mamluk was, the axe was a very uncomfortable weapon. For practical and historical reasons i think giving him an Iranian mace would be better.

The mamluks used both axes, warhammers and maces, there are many examples of all of these in some museums:

This is a late 15th century Mamluk axe:



And this picture shows an early 16th century Mamluk warhammer, axe and mace:


These are 16th century Turkish axes:


Obviously all of these are much later than our period, but I can get pictures of earlier weapons given time. :)

As i said, with the growing Turkic influence, the axe was becoming more and more common. Still i have seen very few pictorial sources which indicate the use of axes, even in the late period. So why axe? I will still insist on iranian maces.