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Author Topic: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)  (Read 25093 times)

SerSlack

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 :green:
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 11:02:51 am by Kiado »

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2009, 02:21:12 am »
Yes!  Happy New Year!

tommylaw

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2009, 12:15:31 pm »
will the mod be done within the year?

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2009, 04:53:35 pm »
will the mod be done within the year?

I am guessing Q1 of 2012... 

Honestly, I would bet we will be alpha testing with a few testers within the next few weeks.   It shouldn't be too long after that before we release a Public Beta of it, and start getting some player feedback.  It really depends on how fast things can come together.   Clegane is working on the Troop trees, and as of right now, I am doing everything else.  I have quite a bit of time to work on it right now, so I have been adding quite a bit the last two weeks.

Done, as in officially "Done" with the mod, I can't say.  The final product is a ways off, but you should be running around Westeros here in the next month or so with a Beta level mod.   This is a rebuild of the mod from the ground up, with the older version being used just for reference.  It will most likely be quite a bit different from the old ASoIaF mod. 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 04:56:30 pm by Kiado »

tommylaw

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2009, 06:14:18 am »
thank god for you kiado

naptha

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2009, 11:35:48 pm »
ah it makes my heart sing to hear of progress being made on this project. happy new year!

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2009, 01:29:57 pm »
I appreciate the support!  Spread the word! 

Offline Zyghor

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2009, 03:58:51 pm »
Will the new version have RCM  :?:

Offline Clegane

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2009, 05:04:47 pm »
Probably not.

PS: Happy New Year 4 days later.

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2009, 11:46:44 am »
Yeah, Probably not is the correct answer right now for sure.  It would be the least of concerns at this point. 

Realism is more important for non-fantasy mods in my opinion.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2009, 12:08:57 pm »
I'll help if you do plan to incorporate RCM ... but you need to decide early.  If you try to add it later, it means reworking all kinds of stuff for game balance.

I mean, let's be honest - in Native, a staff is actually more effective against medium-armored opponents than a sword would be.  If you "balance" anything according to those standards, changing it over later is a complete write-off on the troop trees, character stats, party compositions and other balance-impacting issues.

Side note - once you adjust to the new number set, it effectively takes no more time than the Native numbers.  It's not a matter of "adding" anything, really.  Just a question of which set of numbers you use as a base for your new items.

Anyway, decide one way or the other.  Don't make your life harder by thinking you can switch over later.  That's just creating work.

Make the new year a good one ... minimize frustrations early.

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2009, 01:46:05 pm »
Thanks for the information Mr. Losey.   We will take that under consideration for sure, and I would surely enlist your help with it.

I will have to discuss it with Clegane, and we currently don't have a lot of people visiting our little neck of the woods here, to make a vote worth while. 

I understand the argument for RCM for sure, but with so much else to do I don't know.

(I have to go pick up my daughter from school.  I will have to finish my response later.  Glad to see you read our boards still though. :)

EDIT: Clegane is going to handle putting the custom items in the mod, so I will see what he wants to do with it. 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 03:17:34 pm by Kiado »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2009, 10:42:02 pm »
Yeah, I keep up with your board.  Back when Sparehawk started this thing, it was designated to be an RCM mod ... so I check back occasionally.

Although I must admit, people call my grandfather "Mr. Losey" ... somehow I've never cared for titles.  It also makes me feel a little strange when my students call me "sir".  I wouldn't have made a very good knight.

Anyway, whenever you make a decision ....

Offline Clegane

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 05:49:24 am »
So Ron, what does exactly imply the use of the RCM in gameplay mechanics and item stats modifications.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 06:51:58 am »
So Ron, what does exactly imply the use of the RCM in gameplay mechanics and item stats modifications.

There are a bunch of threads on it, particularly on OnR ... but the easiest way to handle it is to look for yourself.  Check out one of the RCM mods - Onin no Ran, or Mesoamerica, or the RCM retrofit for Native .90x (the latter being highly unbalanced - it was only a demo, not a playable mod).

In a word, data was tweaked so that weapons actually did damage, and armor actually provided protection, and horses actually moved faster than glaciers, and generally things better reflected the realistic problems associated with combat.

One example, just to explain how it works - bows and arrows.  Lets say, realistically, an arrow wound has about a 40 to 50% chance of being immediately debilitating to an unarmored target - slightly higher than the 30 to 35% chance of debilitation from a single bullet wound, based on U.S. studies of combat shootings from WW2 and FBI case files.  (It would be a very long story to explain how I know that - in fact, it could probably be the subject of a book or doctoral dissertation or some such.  But a trauma surgeon could confirm that, if you just want to check my data.)  Now, if you figure 40 to 45 hit points on a person, that's 50 to 60 hit points of damage rating (after power draw adjustments).  (Standard M&B formula is between 0.5 and 1.0 of rated damage, so 60 equals random damage number between 30 and 60, for an average of 45.)

Compare to Native ... about 30 damage for high-end bows, so 15 to 30 points of damage on 40 point human, says there is absolutely no way that one arrow will cause an unarmored human to go down, probably not even if you hit him in the eye.  Not only is that stupid, it it tactically annoying and distracting from game play.  It's counter-intuitive, and screws up game balance... not to mention being murder on the historical mods, since you can't simulate any real event when the physics apparently came from another universe.

Every item in the game has been adjusted this way - weapons, armor, horses, shields, anything with stats.

While the project was developed for historical mods, it has also proven quite popular with fantasy - the survey on the optional RCM package for TLD last release listed the RCM version as preferred more than 4 to 1, even though the unresolved game balance issues made it virtually unplayable.  (Side note - AW assures me that time will be taken to correct that issue next release.  It was not that RCM created balance issues - it merely highlighted them, because the player could no longer solo everything like some kind of invincible war god.)  So this goes far beyond just being realistic - the improvements in game play are more than worth the trouble.  It adds, in one person's description, "intensity".  (Forgot who told me that ... apologies to whoever it was.)

The good news is, if you want this - I've already done the work.  All you have to do is plug in the numbers, and I will even help with that part. 

(Side note - there will be a group, about 2% of players, who will object to the RCM on the grounds that they liked the comic book feel of killing 1000 troops solo, whipping around an axe the size of a stop sign like it was made of plastic and absorbing 10 arrows with apparently no ill effects.  They are also usually fans of Japanese animation and Hong-Kong chop-sockey flicks.  This group is usually very vocal in complaining, but surveys for several mods have continually shown them to be less than 5% of those bothering to vote.  The down side of going to RCM is listening to them call you terrorists and communists and traitors for "ruining" their life.  You have been warned.)

(Also side note - another possible down side of RCM stats.  Flashbacks have been reported among combat veterans and other survivors of armed conflict.  No kidding - I get personal messages along these lines from time to time.  I got it so real that it can actually be a little bit psychologically unsettling.  While some of them, after the fact, were very impressed - well, you have been warned.)

Try Onin-no-Ran for an example ... if you like the way combat feels in that mod, that's what I'm talking about.

Offline Clegane

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2009, 10:12:25 am »
Well, seems like RCM is a must have from what ive seen (i love the Onin no Ran mod). What needs to be done then? 

PD: Im currently creating the troop trees and thinking about the proper equipment for each of them, so i might not be able to tweak the items right now.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2009, 10:38:18 am »
Well, the shortest route would be to send me what you have so far - both the Python files and the .brf files and textures on any unique items. I'll change the item stats as best I can - ask about any fantasy items that don't have real-world equivalents.  Send it back to you.  Using that as a base, you can equip your troops appropriately, and based off of those numbers you can generate data for any new items.

Honestly, however, I am unfamiliar with the book series on which this is based ... so you may have to get creative in tweaking any "magic" (i.e. non-Earth-based technology) items.  Also any specialized terms used, I may have to improvise.  So unlike historical mods, you may have to tweak some stuff after I get done.

But stop building troops file immediately, and send me what you have.  (Easiest way is to post it on Rapidshare or some such, send me the link.)

Shouldn't take me TOO long, but no promises.  (I built the original RCM for OnR .751 in 48 hours, but that nearly killed me, so I probably won't go that route again.  Did the optional package for TLD in under a week, and nearly pulled out my hair ... but they had like a gazillion items.)  If it takes longer than a few days, I'll be surprised.

That's the easiest way for you ... and since I'm on vacation for Chinese New Year at the moment, it doesn't really hurt me either.

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year!
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2009, 10:53:11 am »
I know I haven't added any unique items beyond a couple of items to test models.   Do you have a default setup already laid out?  Like we could just replace our current items with since no real work (as far as I know) has been done adding custom items yet?   We could most likely work from your defaults, and seek your advise on things we aren't sure about.  Up to you really.  (Clegane can tell you better how much custom things he has added, I don't know for sure.) 

At this point of development my main focus is just fleshing out the basics.  Setting up the factions, troops (names and organization, more than item layout), etc.   So maybe this would be the best time to do it.   

As far as not reading the series (I wont get on to you about that, but I will say you should read it.  :) )  it doesn't really matter.  At the point of the story we are presenting there would be few to no "magical" items.  It is a fantasy series, but at the point we are presenting "magic" has not come into play beyond a few events.  There is a particular version of swords in the world that are called "Valaryian Steel"  which could be considered as supreme masterwork weapons perhaps, but no magical properties beyond what is done to create them is presented in the stories.  Basically, its a realistic fantasy type scenario, which is just another reason we should probably go RCM. 

(Pardon the Mr. Loosey then Ron.  :)  I was raised to Texas hospitality and pretty much call everyone Mr. or Mrs. when I don't know them.) 

Offline Clegane

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2009, 11:36:02 am »
Pretty much what Kiado said, this beta wont have the customized troops (as in customized items), just standard equipment as i plan to spend a lot of time outfitting each faction so maybe just get the RCM on hold till we get some customization on the mod?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2009, 12:19:44 pm »
If you're pretty much using Native items, just pull the RCM for Native .90x off of wherever it was last posted (should be a copy on the repository), and go from there.  (If you can't find it, I'll get you a fresh copy.)  I started work on a 1.0x version, but there were a few new items and I couldn't get the fool length measurement tool to work in the new BRFEdit, and I got frustrated and didn't get back to it.  But most everything is the same, except for the prices and the actual order in the file, plus two or three items - I was just being too picky, wanting to get the lengths exactly right.  The download has the Python file, and a compiled .txt for Native (ignore the latter).  You should be able to improvise a base items file in an hour or so, and then just base any new additions off of that data set.

For data that is changed, do look carefully - speed and damage are changed, but also types of attack on certain weapons are changed.  (Why were people in Native always trying to stab someone with a stick?)  If you do a partial cut-and-paste, watch that sort of thing.  Of course, things like prices have nothing to do with the model - that's your problem.

Also, do get the right numbers in the module.ini file ... those are critical.  Module.ini should be in the download - what is changed is obvious (the armor ratios and damage-speed multipliers).

Do watch the bows and arrows ... due to changes in the way power draw was calculated, I had to build a really convoluted reverse-scale damage ratings system.  It's NOT a mistake - the final numbers do work - it just looks freaky.

And don't accidentally get the one for .808 or earlier ... the calculation method was changed, and those numbers are wrong for newer versions.

------------------------
And I was raised in Oklahoma ... where people who insisted they be called by some title were always pompous gasbags.  To avoid looking like one of them, I always learned to immediately insist on informal forms of address.  (Rednecks have a habit of opening hunting season on pompous gasbags... not smart to be associated with them.  So much for hospitality.)

-------------------------

Side note - check out the blood loss model discussion.

http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,1579.msg31708.html#msg31708

There's a good code for that, by amarillo , although you need to change the blood_per_HP number to about 300 (it was 100).  It's planned to be included in all future RCM versions, you might as well be the first.


Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2009, 01:09:19 pm »
Words words words.. 

I think that would probably be the easiest method to take.  It accomplishes two things.  Gives us a good starting base for our own items, and gets us familiar with the number and scheme of RCM.   Clegane, can you/do you want to do this part?  If not I can do it and send you the modified Python files. 

And I was raised in Oklahoma ... where people who insisted they be called by some title were always pompous gasbags.  To avoid looking like one of them, I always learned to immediately insist on informal forms of address.  (Rednecks have a habit of opening hunting season on pompous gasbags... not smart to be associated with them.  So much for hospitality.)

Yeah, I know what you mean.  When I was young my parents made me say "Yes sir.", "No sir', etc.  You know what I am talking about.  I was born and raised in DFW so I am far from a  Redneck (the same can't be said for some of my family), hell I have lived my entire 31 years here and have never even rode a horse.  (Everyone seems to think Texans, and the same is probably true for Okies, that we are all redneck horse riding asshats.)  Anyways, like you said, so much for hospitality. 

Side note - check out the blood loss model discussion.

http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,1579.msg31708.html#msg31708

There's a good code for that, by amarillo , although you need to change the blood_per_HP number to about 300 (it was 100).  It's planned to be included in all future RCM versions, you might as well be the first.


That is an interesting setup, and looks like it would fit well with RCM.  I will test it out with what I have built so far. 

There are so many good things out there that I would love to use.  I just want to be careful to not get bogged down and loose focus on presenting the world we want to present, in a quest to have a ton of cool "extra" stuff in the mod.  Things like this seem pretty good though.  They seem fairly easy to implement, and the benefits are worth the work. 

Offline Clegane

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2009, 07:00:06 am »
(If you can't find it, I'll get you a fresh copy.) 

Yes please, could only find the 0.89 version.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2009, 07:16:05 am »
(If you can't find it, I'll get you a fresh copy.) 

Yes please, could only find the 0.89 version.

The .890 and .90x item file is the same.  The only difference, as far as the RCM/Native package was concerned, is that you need to change that little version info blurb at the bottom of the Module.ini file, to avoid that annoying error message when you try to load the fool thing.

Thought everybody knew that ... sorry for not being more specific.

Oroonin

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2009, 03:56:23 pm »
Mr and miss seems allright, da´ had me call him sarge ´till I became one. Firstname basis now, after 31 yrs.

Offline Zyghor

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2009, 04:37:45 pm »
Im so happy you are considering to implement RCM in the new version.
Great work on the mod guys (big fan of the books)
Great work Ron on RCM (takes a game to real enjoyment in tactical and challenging combat)

In conclusion: I have nothing constructive to say on the subject, just wont you to know that your work is appreciated!  ;)

THX

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2009, 09:28:11 pm »
Mr and miss seems allright, da´ had me call him sarge ´till I became one. Firstname basis now, after 31 yrs.

You have a very strange family.  We all feel sorry for you.

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2009, 10:20:06 am »
Clegane, did you get what you needed?  Need anything from me?

I am thinking about using the following at this point.  RCM, Blood Loss, Formations and Morale scripts.   I will make sure to include instructions in the download readme.txt on how to disable all the options if wanted.  I think putting them in the base, and providing the information to turn them off, or writing a little app to remove them shouldn't be too hard and will benefit the widest range of players.   Although RCM won't be removable, unless we want to make two versions of the items. 


Offline Clegane

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2009, 12:41:31 pm »
RCM is a must have, on the other hand Blood Loss might be a bit hardcore.

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2009, 01:09:57 pm »
RCM is a must have, on the other hand Blood Loss might be a bit hardcore.

I agree with you, but if it was easy to turn off, I don't think it would be a problem.

Think of it like this.  When the user installs our mod, I will provide instructions on renaming a couple of txt files that would remove the features..   For example...

In the A Song of Ice and Fire directory you would have:

scripts.txt
scripts_No_Blood_Loss.txt

Basically the user would just have to rename whichever they wanted to use to "scripts.txt" and it should technically work.

Now I am speaking without testing this theory, but I don't see why I wouldn't be possible.  So it's not something I am sure about, just thinking about it.  The work would be on me though to have all the options there, and that they work no matter which one you use.  There may be even a better way to do it, I will have to explore the option more.

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2009, 03:47:52 pm »
None of this beyond RCM am I worried about at this point.  The rest are just scripts that can be easily added in.  Just thinking on the future. 

Oroonin

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2009, 05:57:05 pm »
You´ve probably all ready heard about it, but the formations scripts tend to slow down combat when initiated, so if you´re going to use them, please make them optional. The version used in the eagle and radiant cross not so much as in tk, why I don´t know. Having optional files for RCM has been tested in tld with no bugs I´ve encoutered anyway, so it should work.

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2009, 08:03:21 pm »
You´ve probably all ready heard about it, but the formations scripts tend to slow down combat when initiated, so if you´re going to use them, please make them optional. The version used in the eagle and radiant cross not so much as in tk, why I don´t know. Having optional files for RCM has been tested in tld with no bugs I´ve encoutered anyway, so it should work.

Yeah, the more I read I think we are just going to go with RCM for now. 

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2009, 09:08:58 pm »
The blood loss script works good ... doesn't add too many complications, and is really no more "hard core" than RCM already.  It actually helps a little with balance when attacking really heavy armor, since wounding a person in extreme armor and then waiting for them to collapse is actually a good tactic (and one that was used).  Just be sure to set blood_per_HP to 300 (not 100, as in the listed code), because the first draft had bleeding about 3 times too fast.

I plan to adopt it as an integral part of all future RCM mods.

However, I will confirm that the various formation and morale scripts going around are all known to create some drag on the system.  Worse if you plan to use large battles.  Not sure how much system drag you are looking at already, but I will confirm the warning.

Oroonin

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2009, 03:24:47 pm »
Right. Formations seems more of legions-thingy anyways. Allways preferred bloody ruckus. Had a look at the southern realms ships?

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2009, 10:09:06 am »
No big deal.  I am not worried about the formations and what not right now anyways.  I am only concerned with RCM right now.

Clegane, send me the items file you end up with for RCM.  I need it for decking out the Lords and just to see RCM in action on our mod and know it works.

Offline Clegane

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2009, 12:27:13 pm »
Im checking the RCM items_kinds1.txt, gonna take me some time to mod all the stats.

PD: Hmm, Ron if i send you the items_kinds1.txt (its the base one from the laast version) would take a look at it. Been comparing both files (the RCM file for 0.89 and this on) but there are some new items from the last vers. of M&B that i dont know how to balance.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 12:46:40 pm by Clegane »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2009, 09:27:49 pm »
Yeah, give me a little time, I'll finish the RCM for Native 1.0x ... I got bogged down because I couldn't measure some stuff in BRFEdit (and Native weapon reach stats are often far off of the actual model), but I'll make something up and go on.

Then if you have any new items beyond that, we'll go from there.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2009, 07:38:38 am »
Guys:

Alpha version of RCM-Native.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VZ8FRAWN

Done mostly in cut and paste - so prices are not balanced to the new numbers.  Also, may contain errors - if you find anything odd, tell me ASAP.  I'll try to fix it as quickly as possible.

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2009, 11:09:42 am »
Guys:

Alpha version of RCM-Native.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VZ8FRAWN

Done mostly in cut and paste - so prices are not balanced to the new numbers.  Also, may contain errors - if you find anything odd, tell me ASAP.  I'll try to fix it as quickly as possible.


Thanks Ron! 

Kiado

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2009, 02:00:36 pm »
Did this give you what you need Clegane?  You need me to take a look at it or anything?  I plan to at some point, but I can do it now if you need me to.

tommylaw

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Re: Didn't see one, so, Happy New Year! (And RCM discussion, go figure)
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2009, 02:06:39 pm »
you're going to love this...

i still dont get what RCM is...