Author Topic: Japanese War Gear - (pics)  (Read 46645 times)

War_B*stard

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Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« on: November 22, 2008, 12:07:27 pm »
Here are some pictures I took from my visit to Leeds Royal Armouries. If you're ever in the area I'd recommend you pay a visit. It's a museum but they do daily talks and displays of various weaponry).
Most of their stuff (and there's lots of it) is European, but they do have an oriental section. The majority of their Japanese collection is 18th + 19th century, but they do have some older pieces. I doubt they will be of any help to the mod, but I figured you might like them all the same.




This is a 17th C halberd/spear head, apparently designed to allow the use to hook escaping prisoners or some such. Whatever the case it's an unusual looking object.

Strange looking helmet from the 16th C, didn't strike me as looking particularly Japanese (more like something from Lord of the Rings)


This last one is a Japanese shield, apparently made for export to Europe (did the Japanese make use of shields like this themselves?):

Hope you enjoyed!
PS With the exception of the arrows + quiver (19th C) all the items here are 15th-17th C.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 12:09:23 pm by War_B*stard »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 06:56:56 pm »
That odd-looking device is roughly translated "sleeve entangler".  It was the stun gun of its day - used for taking prisoners by hanging it in their clothing and dragging them down to where you could beat them up.  Apparently they were quite common - thousands of them have survived.  We thought about adding them to OnR, but since we couldn't really get the proper special effects to go with it, it seemed pointless.

The shield ... Japan understood the concept of the shield.  The Koreans used them.  Okinawa even used small shields (mostly wicker or turtle-shell).  The Japanese just figured that a better grip on your weapon was worth more (and they weren't the only ones - George Silver said the same thing in England 1599).  China also used this model - arming infantry with two-handed polearms or crossbows, and mostly dropping the personal shield (although larger pavise remained in the strategy for both China and Japan).  So it's possible somebody in Japan built a shield for themselves, even if it was uncommon.  Not to say that one wasn't for export - that's also a possibility.

Nice crossbow.  Looks a LOT like the new ones that will be appearing in the next OnR release.  (They're ready.  Just waiting to be distributed.)  And I guess you already saw the new quivers, that look a lot like that one pictured.

The fantasy-looking helmets ... well, most fantasy stories base their helmets off of Japan.  That's because the Japanese helmets were nothing short of utterly preposterous.  There is no way to over-emphasize that point, nor to use imagination to come up with some ridiculous look that the Japanese did not try.  Speaking of which, I keep thinking I'm going to add some more helmets to OnR, but I keep not getting the energy to do it.  A couple along the lines of the one in that picture were on the list.

Side note - photography tip:  You're getting really bad reflections off of the glass.  If you're using flash, you really need to set up a tripod and stop using said flash.  Also, you might want to invest in a circular polarizer filter, if you do a lot of photography of things under glass.  If those options don't appeal to you, sometimes you can reduce the glare just by moving around a little, especially by getting closer.  Most museums in China will back-light their display cases and keep the room relatively dark, to stop that ... they got tired of tourists whining about the glass.  I guess Leeds Armory hasn't heard about that trick yet.  Anyway, just a tip, to help make your pictures look a little more professional.

War_B*stard

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 07:58:27 pm »
Apologies for the low quality of the pictures and thanks for the tips. I was using my camera phone (no flash), the cases were not lit at all but the hall itself was (poorly, I had to turn the brightness on the phone all the way up). I assume the reason they don't use lights inside the cases is to stop the objects' colour from fading. (I'm basically making excuses, I know nothing of photography!)

Anyhow, here's a picture I forgot to include, again apologies for the shocking quality but you get the idea:

It's a helmet from the 17thC, I was astounded at how well made it is (restored maybe?) The hooks on the forehead puzzle me though. Any ideas as to what they are for, and whilst were at it what's with the rope?
Sorry for the bombardment of questions, it's just that going there really piqued my interest.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2008, 09:08:07 pm »
The rope is the chin strap.  Overstated so it could be tied into a big, gaudy bow knot or something, as only the Japanese could do.  They always seemed to make their chin straps out of half-inch rope or larger.

The hooks are to hold the front crest.  From the size of them and their position, I'm guessing that the helmet had horns originally.  (Deer, cow, who knows?)  Probably big ones.  Although it could have been some other preposterous front crest - flower arrangement or a stuffed duck or something.  Whatever it was, the hooks held the crest.  The helmet is tight-pattern lace, so it was expensive ... so I'm betting the original crest for it was totally outlandish.

You took those on a stupid telephone camera?  That's pretty impressive, it and of itself.  You have to be pretty careful to even get workable pictures off of camera-phones.  Anyway, not trying to nit-pick, just commenting... I do a little photography, as a hobby, but I use decent equipment.

The thing with the lights in the cases is a good trick.  The overall light level is about the same (or sometimes a little lower), they just make it brighter inside the cases and darker in the room, so the contents of glass cases will photograph without reflections.  The negative is that if you drop something or lose track of small children, it can be tough to find anything in a darkened room - so it's not the safest arrangement in history.  But it does make photography a lot easier.

And yeah, seeing these things gets most people interested.  That's what drives historians, in a field that most people find incredibly boring when they read about it on paper ... but when you're actually holding a 400 year old helmet, or standing inside a 1000 year old tomb, just about everybody gets a lot more interested.

Chopa

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2008, 01:30:42 pm »
Quote
[Although it could have been some other preposterous front crest - flower arrangement or a stuffed duck or something./quote]

   ROTFLMAO!  I love it! And look forward immensely to meeting, in combat, Lord Dukdong with the stuffed duck on his head!   :lol:

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2008, 09:15:54 pm »
What, you think I was kidding about stuffed animals on helmets?  That would actually be pretty mild compared to some surviving Japanese helmets of the period.  Some had stuffed heads of much bigger stuff, up to and including deer, or live bonsai trees ... If you thought the headgear in the LOTR movies was absurd, you've never even scratched the surface of the sort of things the Japanese did.

It wasn't just Japan ... for example, the Aztec "eagle warriors" sometimes had entire stuffed eagles on their headgear.  Roman standard-bearers wore wolf or lion skins over their armor, including the head covering their helmets.  But the Japanese hold the record for the largest volume of consistently absurd helmet decorations.  They also hold the record for comical ways you can dress up a horse.  The samurai were truly a different breed.

Chopa

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2008, 01:07:58 am »
  Hmmm, The bonsai tree would certainly give you something to do while waiting for the battle to start. "Ooops! gotta leave early...my bonsai needs watering.."
   Having had a quick look at "Onin No Ran" I'm devastated to tell you that "Hundred Years War" has you beaten on funny hats...... They really have the stuffed duck, plus a few other outlandish heraldic beasts atop their helms. I seem to recall that helmet furniture was only for jousting and showing off, and we had to take it off on campaign.....but it certainly makes good eye-candy.   8)

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2008, 01:47:00 am »
Yeah, well, I didn't say that various mods might not have more funny hats.  OnR has a rather limited selection, really ... we hope to get more variety later.  However, some of the really absurd stuff creates a problem with poly count - many of the helmets are already too high-poly, as one of Fujiwara's stated objectives is to keep this thing as light on processors as possible.  (I keep bending that rule - the new quivers that show as many as 50 arrows are killers on poly count.)  We hate to build anything too outlandish just due to processor overwork.

But it is acknowledged that OnR does not even scratch the surface of all the preposterous headgear and weapon designs of ancient Japan.  Maybe if computers keep doubling in processing power every 18 months, we can get away with that in five years or so.

Chopa

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2009, 07:35:16 pm »
   While I'm sure this is not the right place to post it... have you seen http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,55103.0.html ?

   CATMOD II. The screenshots take a long time to load and some are "Strange" to say the least. There are some interesting Chinese fortifications towards the end, Chinese crossbows, and a Chinese arrow quiver, similar to the one in this thread which I understand someone has just spent alot of time and several crates of polygons modelling.
   Ron's grasp of Chinese to the rescue!

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2009, 09:30:34 pm »
Yeah ... that was odd ... like a history lesson on LSD.

My new crossbow and arrow quiver models are not quite as elaborate, but probably closer to the real thing.  The limbs on those crossbows looked much too narrow for the horn and bamboo bow construction of the 1400's.  (I have seen a few real Chinese crossbows ... just a few, really, considering the tens of thousands of them that have been recovered from old tombs and the like.)  Anyway, it was me - who spent three weeks and a million polys on crossbows and quivers.  (Scary thought ... a million polygons worth of new models.)

The quivers were so darn high poly because, instead of the convention of only doing about five arrows, I did them all - even the big one with like 50 arrows.  Even then, over 2000 poly sounds really bad until you realize the faces are like 900 poly.

Although my ability to read Chinese is not that good either ... I never use it, all my students always want to practice English with me.

The new models should be in the next version, if Fujiwara ever re-appears.

Chopa

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2009, 11:55:00 pm »
  If this mod has piqued anyone's interest in Japanese armour, this guy has a pretty good website on it's history, construction and use: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/

sdog

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 09:21:43 am »
until accurate firearms made sniping possible in WW1, absurdly large funny hats really increased one's survivability on the battlefield. Since the important people could have the really big ones only, it's quite good whey your lads can see you everywhere on the battlefield, to either receive orders or save your ass. In many cultures it made your opponent try not to kill you in order to capture and ransom you.

to ron, do you think very strongly coloured ornaments and stuff could distract the opponent for a split second? When he suddenly sees the wearer in the batle and needs a bit longer to grasp the situation. Since eg the silhuette is broken.

Another example Our vision works in a way to search for the eyes first, find all of them and then from there on start looking. Eyes painted on a shield could lead the opponent to look at the shield first. Since  many helmets obscure the eyes, it could also take one longer to notice an opponent as human, and not as an object.

The effects of this should be in the timescale of less than half a second, could it have mattered in battles?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 10:26:27 am »
Well, yes and no.  In both world wars, allied aircraft described enemy fighters as firing at the big targets on their planes more than at anything vital.  So there may be something to that.  But an airplane has a 50 foot wingspan and they were closing on each other at 300mph+ ... so the situation was a little different than a man-sized target.

However, in an arrow barrage, there's probably not that much aiming going on in the first place.  I mean, not precisely enough to worry about where the eyes are fixed ... they're mostly shooting for moving silhouette.  At least that's how most modern armies train to shoot with rifles, and it's a safe bet that after 800 years of spending their entire lives studying warfare, the samurai probably had forgotten a lot more about conditioning and combat training than modern people will ever know.

Now, throwing off the silhouette is another issue ... assuming your enemy is shooting for center of body mass, it is possible to give them the bullfight runaround - present a visual target that does not really include your body.  But a tall helmet is a poor plan in that respect, because if they shoot for center of mass, that pulls their aiming point off of your chest armor and onto your face.  Same reason they tell police not to crouch in a gunfight - if the enemy is aiming at chest level, the last thing you want to do is move your head down to chest level.

The real advantage of large headgear is psychological.  If you're 5'10", and the other guy appears to be seven feet tall, it's going to take you a second (especially in confusion and low light) to figure out if he really has 18 inches of reach and 100 pounds on you, or if it's a costume.  Combine that with a bunch of unnecessary noise and irregular light reflections, and it tends to be a bit disconcerting.  That is a distraction that will buy you some time, but generally because the enemy are seriously considering how badly they want to engage your force, not in the fractions of a second between blows in a melee.

There's also the "most dangerous guy on the field" effect.  My brother described it this way:  If when a bunch of troops charge across a clearing, everybody has a rifle, except for one guy who has something big and scary-looking (doesn't matter what - flamethrower, huge battle axe, anything noticeable), the enemy will invariably concentrate all fire on that guy.  Now, this seems counter-productive, until you realize that the guy in the big helmet probably has the best armor, and is probably not standing in a group with the peasant spearmen.  So if some guy in flashy armor rides by on a horse and draws all the enemy fire, the infantry can march in virtually unopposed.  The modern equivalent usually involves using a tank to draw artillery fire off of the infantry, but it's the same basic idea.

But most of those things are not fraction-of-a-second ... they cause general confusion among command and dismay among the enemy over a period of time.  Cumulative damage to morale and to command and control functions, as lower officers misdirect fire and mis-estimate threat levels, eventually weaken their overall ability to fight.


I wouldn't bet on psychological advantage in close quarters.  Once targets get within blade range, most people have developed such a bad case of tunnel vision from adrenalin that they probably can't see much of anything anyway.  So by that point, it's probably wasted ... they're just attacking the idea of a person being there, and wouldn't notice if he was dressed like bozo the clown.  I mean, the number of friendly fire cases at point blank range pretty much prove that people are looking at their targets, not seeing them.

Offline SwissHalberdier

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 09:56:17 am »

Another example Our vision works in a way to search for the eyes first, find all of them and then from there on start looking. Eyes painted on a shield could lead the opponent to look at the shield first. Since  many helmets obscure the eyes, it could also take one longer to notice an opponent as human, and not as an object.


For what it's worth, most of the Japanese martial arts I've encountered over the years teach you *not* to look at the eyes, simply because they are so distracting.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2009, 08:25:46 pm »
Interesting armor and discussion.
Maybe I should post a picture of my own armor, it looks a lot like the white laced armor in the first picture, but with gold flanges on the helmet and with dark blue lace.
Why no picture of the very rare horse barding?  :(

The rope is the chin strap.  Overstated so it could be tied into a big, gaudy bow knot or something, as only the Japanese could do.  They always seemed to make their chin straps out of half-inch rope or larger.

The "shinobi-no-o" is about as thick as a finger, and yes it was typically tied into a big gaudy bow  :green:

The hooks are to hold the front crest.  From the size of them and their position, I'm guessing that the helmet had horns originally.  (Deer, cow, who knows?)  Probably big ones.  Although it could have been some other preposterous front crest - flower arrangement or a stuffed duck or something.  Whatever it was, the hooks held the crest.  The helmet is tight-pattern lace, so it was expensive ... so I'm betting the original crest for it was totally outlandish.

I have never seen a stuffed duck on a Japanese helmet before, but I kinda like the idea  :green:
Also, note that the more outlandish helmet structures can be fake, they were made about 50 years ago, and most crests seen on antique armors are modern and mass produced... or occasionally a somewhat well made fake.
Even famous museums have and often still display reproductions or fakes.
But you sure are right about the very large horns, it would have had a large V shaped stylized pair of horns, they were common to the Ii clan, who were pretty much the only samurai with red armor during the Edo period, so it's very easy to attribute the helmet to the Ii clan.

The red helmet does look like it's in very good condition for it's age, it is possible that it has been partially restored, but I would need to take a close look at it, the mabezashi (visor) does look like it has some wear spots on the gold lacquer, but this is difficult to see because of the low quality of the pictures.
This type of helmet is actually quite cheap though, as the helmet bowl consists of only three plates, and although full lace would have been more expensive, it would have been negligible in this case (it's not a cuirass with lots of lace after all).
Also, the simple flat plates of the neck guard would have been cheaper then plates with build up lacquer (kiritsuke-zane, made to look like real scales), and it would have been a lot more cheaper then real scales.
It sure is a nice looking helmet, and this type was very popular with both poor samurai as well as wealthy daimyo.

Examples of the horns on Ii clan armor:



And yeah, seeing these things gets most people interested.  That's what drives historians, in a field that most people find incredibly boring when they read about it on paper ... but when you're actually holding a 400 year old helmet, or standing inside a 1000 year old tomb, just about everybody gets a lot more interested.

Indeed, there is nothing like getting your hands on antique weapons and armor, I have been very fortunate to have hands-on experience with both Japanese and European antique armor and weapons.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 08:40:19 pm by Ichimonji Hidetora »
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2009, 10:17:48 pm »
Even if they're not actually antique - just "real" (i.e. functional and/or well-made) weapons and armor are interesting.  My own blades are, while hand-made, clearly not very old ... but they still very much communicate the message.  You cannot help but be in awe of the power of such a weapon.

And now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever seen a stuffed duck on one ... although I have seen a number of other bird-related motifs, so a duck on the helmet would not really surprise me.

And that was a worthwhile note - I concur, a lot of the crests you see are remakes.  That doesn't necessarily mean they are inaccurate - period art seems to indicate that the originals could even be more preposterous than most of the remakes.  But it is extremely rare for an original crest to have survived from that far back, especially not one made mostly of biodegradable materials (i.e. actual horns, likely tacked to a wood block for mounting) or extremely thin decorative metals.  Even the few "old" ones were likely remakes of the 1700's, even if they were mounted on much older helmets... crests were a bit like handle wrappings on swords or polearm shafts, in that they were expected to have to be replaced occasionally.  That sort of thing happens when you actually use stuff, instead of just sitting it on a post to admire.

(I would know - I'm tough on equipment.  Pocketknives, pens, flashlights, cameras, watches ... I carry them around until there's nothing left, until they're just worn to a frazzle.  If I carried a sword every day, I would probably have to wrap the saya in duct tape.)

I would bet that helmet in question had been repainted and re-laced several times over its lifetime.  Hard to tell how old the most recent restoration was.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 06:33:13 pm »
Even if they're not actually antique - just "real" (i.e. functional and/or well-made) weapons and armor are interesting.  My own blades are, while hand-made, clearly not very old ... but they still very much communicate the message.  You cannot help but be in awe of the power of such a weapon.

I agree.

And now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever seen a stuffed duck on one ... although I have seen a number of other bird-related motifs, so a duck on the helmet would not really surprise me.

Heh heh, you could of course make a stuffed duck on a helmet just for the fun of it >:D  :lol:

I would bet that helmet in question had been repainted and re-laced several times over its lifetime.  Hard to tell how old the most recent restoration was.

Repainted sounds so cheap :P but yeah, it's not uncommon for armor to have been restored a couple of times, but of course it's not impossible to tell if it was done in modern times or a long time ago.
I have recently seen an armor for sale that was advertised as an "unrestored, all matching armor", it took me me 3 seconds to see that the lacquer around the holes for the lace was damaged, obviously the brand new looking lace was forced through the holes by an amateur.
And the armor was also a composite, meaning that several armor pieces from different suits were put together to make one set of armor that will look decent to the untrained eye.
Things like that amuse me, although it's sad to know that some poor ignorant sucker will pay a lot more money then it's worth.
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2009, 05:02:59 pm »
Here are some pictures of my own samurai armor (it's antique)  8)

Unpacking the armor (it's in it's antique armor storing chest)... lot's of buble wrap and packing peanuts, the shipping weight of the armor was 23.5kg, the armor weighs about 9 or 10 kg less:


The complete suit on display on it's box and armor stand, front view (duh), the crest on the helmet that's shown on this picture is modern and is not the crest I got with it (thank god I got an antique one from the dealer):


The side of the armor that the enemy should never get to see:


The front side of the helmet with the neck guard collapsed, the antique crest shown is the one I got with the armor and although it's a good match, it's not original to the helmet, the helmet bowl is made of 62 plates (expensive, compared to 8 plates for cheap armor):


The side of the helmet (the camera view is slightly rotated towards the back of the helmet), I censored the web info that was shown on the middle of the picture with red pixels:


The inside of the helmet bowl, the arrows point out that some of the plates were not made from one piece, note that the picture is taken through a small gap in the liner of the helmet:


A mask of fierce expression:


The sode (pauldron):


The other side of the sode:


Suneate (greave):


Etchu haidate (Thigh guards), made of chainmail:


The other side of the haidate:


Oda-gote (also known as Kaga-gote), made of chainmail with a couple of steel plates as is typical for this type of kote:


Detail of the kote:


The inside of the kote:


Back and breast:


The inside view of the back plates, covered with leather:


Close-up of the breast plates:


Kohire (winglet) and eri-sho kikko (brigandine armored collar):


That's it, I hope you enjoyed the detailed pictures (whoever you are)  :)
Feel free to ask me questions about the armor if you have them.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 05:09:06 pm by Ichimonji Hidetora »
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

War_B*stard

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 05:49:39 pm »
Wow.
From the pictures it looks like that all seems to be in pretty good nick, when does it date from and has it been restored much?
Stupid question: Have you been tempted to wear it?

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2009, 06:53:22 pm »
Wow.
From the pictures it looks like that all seems to be in pretty good nick, has it been restored much?

Yeah, it's in excellent condition with only a couple of small chips in the lacquer, such as in the visor of the helmet (very visible on one of the pictures I've posted, and you can see a chip in the lacquer in the picture below (exposing the steel underneath, but you can't see that from this angle), the chip is located all the way on the right, one of the build up lacquer teeth is missing.


Also, some of the lace is damaged, some are in half, look at the tassets of the cuirass to see it, this type of damage is very common though.
The armor is in it's original state of preserve, so it's never been restored in any way.

and when does it date from?
Different parts of the armor date from different periods, like I said before, the helmet crest is not original to the suit, it dates from the late Edo period, the boots and straw sandals are modern and are there just because the suneate look kind of incomplete without them.
The helmetbowl is the oldest part of the suit and the suit was made to fit the helmet (so it's considered a matching set, an armor can even be considered to be a matching set if a Myochin smith makes an armor that incorporates a a Haruta school helmet bowl that's 200 years older).
The helmet bowl is very easy to date, all I have to do is look at the number of plates the bowl is made of,  in this case it's 62 ken, and that limits the date at about 1520-1530, as it was invented at that time by  a famous smith of the Myochin school, this bowl is Haruta school though, so it has to be at least a bit later.
Then I look inside the helmet to further determin it's age, you can clearly see that the rivets are not in a neat straight line, that indicates that the bowl can't date from later then the end of the Muromachi period (OLD!) :o
Of course there are even more ways to tell the age, like looking at the patina of the iron inside the bowl, and the tsunamoto (small double prong that holds the helmet crest) is typical of the late Muromachi period.
So the helmet bowl should be from about 1540-1550AD.

As for the rest of the armor, well... that's even easier, you don't even have to be an expert to find out, just look at the cuirass, what type is it? From when could it possibly date?
If you can't tell by looking at the shape/type of the cuirass, then you can still date it by Googling the "kamon" (family crests), there are a couple of possibilities for each kamon, but put together they can only point to one certain faction.
I wonder if Ron would be able to tell the age of this armor (I expected him to have posted a reply by now), or maybe you can find out the age yourself.
If no one can guess it it, then I will tell :P

Stupid question: Have you been tempted to wear it?
Nah... it's not a stupid question, it's only natural to ask such a thing, and yeah, I did wear the cuirass, it was the easiest and safest way to get it up stairs ;)
But of course it's not a toy that should be worn to play samurai with, it has to be carefully preserved, like you can't expose it to sunlight as the UV will damage the lacquer within 30 minutes or less, so I keep it in a dark place with just the right temperature and amount of moisture (there is a good reason why the armor is still in excellent condition, it's because it was well stored and taken care of over the centuries).

Hmmm... no questions about the armor type or the materials used? Or what rank of samurai could have owned it?
I kind of expected those questions, but now it's time for me to go to bed, I do hope to get some more reactions from people, its almost as if these forums are a ghost town.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 07:06:43 pm by Ichimonji Hidetora »
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2009, 10:09:31 pm »
I saw it.  And I could probably figure out the age by process of elimination, eventually, if I wanted to put that much time into it.  For example, it's tight weave pattern, so if it's later than the Onin War, it was on the more expensive side.  Sode are large-ish, also suggesting it was high-budget and probably early, but not the stiff O-sode seen on nobility o-yoroi.  The haidade are kind of light (maille, not heavy stuff), as are the arms and lower legs, which was more common earlier, but it is very complete head-to-toe coverage.  Contrasting that, the skirt is kind of short ... which likely dates it post-Onin War.  None of the ornamentation seen on more parade-oriented armors, so it was certainly intended to be used.  Lamellar construction throughout - no musket-resistant trauma plate over the chest, as would appear shortly after large-scale firearm use became an issue.  Flag ring on the back, so it's intended for rank-and-file (and certainly dating that part post Onin War)... but it's do-maru, not haramaki, so it's high-end.  So just from a quick scan of these pictures ... most of the pieces look mid-1500's, middle-ranking samurai, probably infantry.  (That's the ten-second analysis.  A lot of very general assumptions, not to be confused with actually researching anything.  That could be off by a good deal, but if I was researching it, that's where I would start looking.)

Never been much into collecting things, myself.  Unless I planned to open a museum, I prefer my stuff to be usable.  (Hope I don't have to use my blades ... I've seen too much of that sort of thing.  But I keep them for that reason, not because they are valuable to collect, which in my case they really are not.)  So I have trouble thinking of anything cool to say, besides something along the lines of "That looks very ... old."


Actually, I've been kind of busy of late ... along with the usual, I've also been doing some photography for the school (as their PR department is composed of one guy and one obsolete camera, so they needed the help).  Plus a variety of power and internet service failures over the last week has made checking on the forum here rather hit-and-miss.  So I saw the armor pictures, I just didn't take time to post a really extensive commentary.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2009, 11:35:28 am »
Well... it doesn't look like anyone else has an opinion about my antique armor, so I will tell you what you got right and what you got wrong soon :D

BTW, has anyone seen this topic on Taleworlds?  http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,64999.0.html
It's an interesting time and place and the involved clans are awesome, they did make some rather silly mistakes though, like "mounted ashigaru" wearing samurai armor?  :green:
I do think that if they take the mod seriously, they can end up with a very nice mod.
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

shalictar

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2009, 06:32:30 pm »
Thats quite the armor set you got there Ichimonji.

and regarding my mod heaven and earth...
those errors have been fixed.

and a quick question, has anyone heard from fujiwara lately?



Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2009, 12:57:27 am »
No word from Fujiwara since he reported scheduling problems (i.e. zero free time, 12 to 14 hour work days) some time back.  However, if that is still the case, there is no reason to be alarmed by the long delay, aside for any concerns for his health as a result of such.

Looking for him for some particular reason?  Or just wondering what was up?

shalictar

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2009, 10:26:34 am »
Well I needed to ask him some things.

that sucks that he has to work so much.

go-shikisonae

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2009, 11:33:46 pm »
Nice pictures this indeed provide leaving artifact from the past.  What inspired the Ii Clan particularly Ii Naomasa about the Red Samurai Armor is based on the battle of Nagashino where Yamagata Masakage led the Fire Regiment under the banner of Takeda Katsuyori because of their well discipline cavalry. Ii Naomasa adopted that and carried on the legacy of the Red regiment under his wings and carried on at the battle fields of Sekigahara.  I notice though their is one Samurai warrior who almost wears the same armor and kabuto....The looser of Sekigahara and the commander of the Western Army...Ishida Mitsunari.  I am only basing this from Samurai Warfare book by Stephen Turnbull.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2009, 12:58:10 am »
I'll get a couple of those in easy-as-possible responses ... hopefully those will be more help than the "correct" (i.e. in complete technical detail) responses.

1.  The part about European armors being stiff and difficult to move is a myth.  It came from tournament armors, which were purely sports gear and actually could not be used in combat.  Realistically, armors with solid front plates (o-yoroi, and the later-period solid breastplate Japanese armors, as well as solid breastplates from other parts of the world - i.e. the Spanish conquistadors chest armor, Greek chest armors 200BC and before, etc.) are a little bit restrictive to bending in the middle, but otherwise, armor generally moves pretty freely.  If it did not, it would be useless in combat.  (Not to say that the weight doesn't wear on you ... it does.  But movement is not really directly restricted except by fatigue and weight.)

2.  The sode (shoulder plates) on Japanese armors came in several basic styles.  Tsubo-sode are the ones that adhere to the arm (like the Native model).  O-sode (large shoulder plates) can be either relatively stiff and mounted near the shoulderblade, or relatively loose and flowing over the shoulder, but they are generally not really attached to the upper arm - they fasten at the shoulder.  There are much more detailed terms for all of this, and a lot of history around it, but for what you're asking just figure that there are several styles.

3.  Do-maru pretty much just means the armor fastens on the side, as opposed to haramaki-do which fastens in the back.  There are plenty of variations on each, as well as other less common styles (i.e. fastens both sides, pulls on over the head, or whatever).  O-yoroi translates like "great armor" ... and traditionally meant armors with large trauma plates in front (and usually back), although that definition blurred a good deal shortly after single-piece breastplates became popular in response to muskets.  Either way, the number of plates on the thigh guards and such will likely not tell you much.  Again, that's painfully over-simplified, but at least it will get you on the right track.

4.  Your big texture problems will be with the decorative junk - that is what is normally used to determine the date of the armors.  And those things did change a good deal more than the basic designs.  Using the wrong ones for a given time period will stand out rather badly.

Hope that helps.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2009, 03:34:16 am »
Actually, the "tournament plate" armors were divergent evolution.  The first such competitions used battle armor, because they were intended as combat training.  As the tournaments became more of a sport for nobility, tournament armor became a specialized field ... while military armors continued to evolve in their own direction, specifically toward reducing casualties from gunfire and crossbows without weighing as much as a castle.  Eventually, the two had little in common, except for the fact they were both made of steel... and then the myths started when modern people couldn't tell the difference.

And despite being a fair historian, I never claimed to be a great expert on Japanese armors, in the sense of museum/collector details.  My research on the subject is more leaning toward what it takes to kill somebody who is wearing a shirt made of iron plates.  So don't look at me for complete solutions there.  I can usually place them in the right century, plus or minus a couple of decades.

I will say that the Native "strange armor" is Edo-period do-maru.  You can tell it's late Edo period from the bizarre decorative items, like the tassel rings on the chest.  Other than that, however, there's nothing wrong with the model - it does look like tsubo-sode do-maru, just like it's supposed to.  A little more color on the textures is all it really needed - well, and those odd things painted over, if it's to be used in any reasonable time frame.  ONR uses exactly that for several of the armors.  Tragically, the Native helmet just utterly sucks ... looks more Chinese than Japanese.  Fortunately, the current ONR helmets are a mix of other people's talent and my bizarre habit of mixing and matching things, and are finally starting to look pretty good.

Haramaki-do is very old, but was used mostly for low-ranking types - it was intended to be one-size-fits-all, and required some help to put on.  Many books say little about it, on the grounds that it was not what warriors were wanting, nor what modern collectors are really trying to get.  However, there was a LOT of that stuff floating around.  So do look it up if you're working on models for this kind of thing.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2009, 08:27:38 pm »
Ron, haramaki-do are actually very collectable, as they are typically made of ko-zane or iyo-zane, real scale construction like that is always expensive and sought after by collectors, and they are not as common as many other types of armor during the 16th century and later.
Also, o-yoroi do not have solid breastplates, it's all boards of scales, typically covered with printed leather on the front so the bow string does not get caught on the the scales.
A do-maru does fasten on the side, but so do many other types of armor, like my armor is not a do-maru, but a ni-mai-do (2 part cuirass), it has a vertical hinge on the left side that holds the front and back pieces together.
The do-maru consists of one continues piece that can not be broken down into separate pieces like ni-mai-do can, a do-maru would lay flat if you would put it on the floor, and wraps around the body when worn, for this reason they are typically made of scales for flexability.
My ni-mai-do is also made of real scales, but is rather rigid because steel wire inserts on the inside of the armor give it a permanent shape, it's still a bit springy though, unlike a solid plate cuirass.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Welcome SantasHelper, I have seen some of your work in the past, but maybe you could give me a link to a thread on Taleworlds that you have been active in recently, I'm having trouble finding discussions about your mod concerning recent work in progress (it would be nice to see the discussions you have had with the modeller you mentioned).
I am a modeller myself, I suppose you haven't seen my latest work?
I recently posted a picture showing many different helmets in one of the other threads in this forum, but I will re-post it here for your convenience, they do need to be (re)UV mapped and textured though.


Anyway....
Concerning antique Japanese armor, you should know that armor from 1700/1800 or later is extremely common, and everything from before the year 1600 is uncommon, pre 1500 armor is extremely difficult (practically impossible) to obtain because the few armors that have survived the armor design revolution of the 16th century are national treasures kept in famous collections of castles/museums or temples, the "tate nashi no yoroi" kept in the Takeda family shrine is a good example of that, it's an o-yoroi and the name translates something like: armor that needs no shield (that name will tell you something about how hand held shields became obsolete in Japan), but my point with all this is: you won't find any armor sets on that website that are older then the late 16th century.
And although some armors basically look like they could have belonged in the 14th/15th century, the details (like narrow scales rather then large scales) will betray them for what the are.

I have known that dealer's website for quite some time now, it's funny how it's been "still under construction" after so many years :P it's very chaotic as well, difficult to navigate and now the links to pictures appear to be broken, so I can't look around properly at the moment.

About your question concerning flexibility/rigidity of armor: there is no one answer to that as this depends on the type of armor and if it's scale or solid plate etc, so you are going to have to be very specific.

So if I understand you correctly, you say that you want old style armor... right? Old style is rather much of the same couple of armor types though, rather boring, just like in Native with their same old chainmail, chainmail+coat of plates, chainmail with heraldry.... boring! :P
I recommend Japanese armor from about 1580, lots of different types and variety of construction methods, this is actually worth putting in-game, lots of awesome helmet types too.

I wanted to say more... but I should really go to bed now... 4:27 in the morning :green:
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 08:38:26 pm by Ichimonji Hidetora »
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Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2009, 07:43:43 pm »
ok. Fuji just looked shocked when he saw the armor I did. using the native strange armor.
and of course my book got none of thoses.

Yeah that was funny :green: he was right though, the uchidashi sode (uchidashi=embossed) with the oni would have to go with an uchidashi-do, they were invented at about 1720/1730, the whole suit looks like it was made from bits and pieces taken from severall suits.
The purple cloth seen with the antique armor is just a table cloth really, some collectors/dealers like to put a cloth over the wooden armor stand, I do the same thing, so I would recommend putting a proper outfit under the armor, like a "yoroi hitatare" or whatever, make sure to add some color contrast (not just all purple), and a nice pattern maybe.

got lucky on that antique site, it seems I can no longer get to the pictures collection.
fortunately I grabbed a lot of data first time arround

I could see the pictures again for a while, but now they are down again ???

as much as possible, I want to try to do something that could be usefull to onin no ran, not just my mod
my book goes up to 1500. so yep, early samurai is misleading. it's [200-1500]
the osprey book by Anthony J Bryant, Mc Bride is the illustrator

Anthony is a great guy, he is a very reliable source of information regarding Japanese armor and it's history, he has a fantastic website too, a good place for people to learn about Japanese armor without being misinformed, unlike Wikipedia, just ignore whatever Wikipedia says about Japanese armor.
Funny, when I checked the Dutch Wikipedia today it showed the bunny ears armor, it said it was obviously a ceremonial armor, even though the cuirass and helmet are clearly for war, and of course it's most likely a composite armor to begin with... FAIL! :lol:
Unfortunately, antiques predating 1500 are extremely rare, you probably won't find any decent high resolution pictures of them :(

some of the best color plates show armors from the 1000s 1100s 1200s and 1300s
the color variety on the scales is stagering,
which brought me to find a way to get the dynamic texture engine working.
basicaly I could color scales on the fly, much like the back color for heraldic armor
so part of the color would be fixed, part dynamic it's also possible to trick the engine in creating a second color by using a two-color pattern instead of a single color background

Sounds good, but I think you are talking about the color of the lace rather then the scales right?

the book mentioned that the armors are made  of a mix of metal scales and leather scales,
that section of the book is quite complicated and I haven't digested the whole thing yet
how do I tell the difference ? do you have an example of large scales vs small scales
and what are those scales made of exactly ? clearly doesn't look like metal.
thought I think my book mentioned thin metal plates inside
I really need to read that again to understand it.

You should definitely read the part about the scales, it will help you understand Japanese armor much better, metal/leather scales is very common, the cuirass of my armor is made of those materials, it's known as tetsu-kawa kozane, so it's made of alternating steel and rawhide scales.
Those are also the only materials Japanese armor is made of (with exception of decoration).
The metal of samurai armor is typically soft iron on the side that faces the wearer, and hardened steel on the side that faces the enemy, the rawhide is also hardened, so it's extremely strong (low grade armor for ashigaru is typically made of slag filled iron or hardened rawhide).

If a tetsu-kawa scale cuirass would be hit by a weapon, and it strikes the scales rather then the few small solid plates that it has, then there is a 66% chance of it hitting the thickest part (with the most overlap), in that case the weapon would have to penetrate 2 layers of hardened steel and 2 layers of hardened rawhide, it provides more protection the solid steel lames do, as only 2 layers of steel would have to be penetrated at it's thickest point.
Of course, scale armors made of all rawhide scales also exist, and the same is true for steel (four layers of hardened steel scales at it's thickest point... a formidable defense).

Large scales are a bit wider and longer then the ko-zane, here is a decent explanation about scales from Anthony J Bryant's website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html
You can't see the difference between the rawhide and steel scales though, as the scales are lacquered, although it might be seen when the lacquer is chipped off, a magnet is the best way to find out what is metal and what is rawhide.

I think I recognize some of your helms in there ;D

Very possible :green: I have even more helmet models, but they didn't fit the picture, I also have some different mask models (including one with a long pinokkio nose), I have more other models too, flags, crests, architecture, a lot of it is still a wip though, including the helmets even though they look finished.

verry nice work on the helmets ! not sure I recognize everything there thought, beyond the kabuto
but I do know not all troops wore samurai armors ;D
do you think Fuji would allow your models to be shared accros both mods ? I may be able to convince rathos to do the uvmaping. I can take care of the texturing. I would need references thought. as I say I'm not familiar with all thoses.
Or maybe you're already planning to do the uvmap/texture ?  

UVmapping and texturing... nahhh, I have no plans to do that, I like to pretend the evil uv-mapping does not exist ;)
Thanks for the compliment, the variety of Japanese helmets is huge so it's not a surprise if you don't recognize some of them.
Most helmets I modelled date from about a century after the the Onin period, I made them for myself as I planned on making my own mod, but unfortunately both BRF edit an the mad editor stopped working properly on the same day, shortly after I modelled those helmets.
I thought about giving them away to Shalictar, but his mod just died today.
I don't really know what to do right now :-\

That's the little subforum, sharing it with Rathos (Britain at war)
He's a modeller/texturer and I'm a scripter, sometime texturer
CG programmer in real life
The modeler in question doesn't really post much. His nickname is Narf.
(What I really mean is discussions were private/oms, first with Rathos, latter with me after Rathos recommended me to contact him  :P )
He popped out of nowhere and contacted Rathos directly.
His stunning talent was quite a surprise
You can see some of his work in the Britain at War progress thread
they're top of page 2

Cool, his Gothic armor looks very realistic, I really like his style.
  
I'm currently adapting Britain at War to a Fire Arrow Base with a bunch of extra features and modifications. I must confess that Rucchi totally beat me in quality for Kingdom Management, so I trashed my old work
(But not the extended factions/culture/ fiefs/banners ... of course)
You can have a look at the gazeeteer of my map. the map is 3x wider, larger and higher than native.
It's a simple scaleup with lots of refinement. I needed the place for all those extra fiefs
(1200 fiefs total)
you can see one of the two shogunate near the top, part of it.
there are 36 factions, and it should support a few 1000s items, thanks to a trick I found.
so variety is in, the two shogunate are the ones using the Japanese style.
I don't have anything special for the city, but I might try to adapt the chinese city of tripartion.
won't quite look japanese :(

Nice screen shots of the worldmap, the rivers make it look very natural, I miss that in native.
(The proper word for shogunate is bakufu), it all sounds like a lot of work.

2 factions are japanese inspiration, names of the fiefs taken from some old japanese map
It's quite fictive I'm affraid, and it will lack the details of Onin No Ran for the towns/weapons
since my deal with Fuji only covered extending the armors
I do think it cover full set (armor, gloves, boots, helm.... let me see o-yoroi, gote, ?, kabuto ;D )
(and I believe I still need a final ok, thought he gave me the green light to proceed
... at the time it was just supposed to be hi res retextures/ variant textures)
As you can see I got both lucky and more ambitious.
anyhow, now you know why I need samurai gear, where it's getting used.
and what I intend to add (dynamic collors, LOD support, hi res textures)

Fictive like Native works well though, right?
I own antique Japanese blades, I have a lot of knowledge and hands on experience with all sorts of Japanese weapons, I even modelled some replacement weapons to replace those of Onin no ran to satisfy my need for realistic looking weapons with a higher poly count then those of the mod.
I also remodelled some of the pole-arms of Onin no ran and some other weapons, and I provided a lot of info and new weapon ideas that got implemented, weapons are easy, much more so then armor.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 07:50:06 pm by Ichimonji Hidetora »
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2009, 09:37:57 pm »
Note on armor penetration, added to that:

You don't necessarily have to "penetrate" armor to cause damage.  The odds of actually putting a weapon through any laminate armor are pretty low.  However, sufficient impact can still cause damage.  Same with plate-type armors - creasing the metal and injuring the wearer would be a lot more common than actually penetrating it. 

In that case, the leather scales mixed in with the iron ones would serve to increase the padding effect.  Hardened leather is a lot like plastic - tough, but more flexible and shock-absorbent than most metals under normal conditions.  This would reduce the trauma transferred to the wearer.  So while it might be somewhat easier to cut than metal, the odds of injury to the wearer could actually be reduced, depending on the weapon.

Note on materials:
While there are no surviving Japanese armors using bamboo or bone scales from earlier than Edo period (i.e. probably mostly for show), both lacquer-hardened bamboo and bone were used across Asia.  Lacquer-soaked bamboo proved particularly effective in southern China - performing at least as well as similar volumes of hardened leather.  So the myth of the bamboo armor was not a total myth ... Japan at least must have known about the practice.  But officially, none of those suits have survived, so it cannot be confirmed in Japan.  Some of the Chinese bamboo scale has survived, and since a lot of people can't tell the difference anyway (the designs are similar, especially very early - they were neighbors and trade partners, after all), an urban legend was born.

Note on "ceremonial armor":
Everything the samurai did was somewhat ceremonial.  That's part of military life - modern armies spend as much time saluting and marching in parades as they do fighting.  Japan really had very few distinctions between the two - they wore their most outlandish decorations all the way to the battlefield.  With the exception of a little bit of late Edo-period stuff, most combat armor was ceremonial (excluding concealed maille and some ashigaru junk), and pretty much all ceremonial armor was intended for combat.

The modern military "dress uniform" is a product of the early 20th century.  Even as late as the 1800's, there was no noticeable distinction between combat and formal uniform in most cases.  (Even European "tournament armor" was not formal - it was just specialized sporting goods, and as such, too heavy and restrictive for social wear.)  Reading that back into history is a common mistake, especially with armor, which was usually much too expensive for anybody (even kings) to have much selection.

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2009, 06:11:03 pm »
that site of Anthony Bryant is genius ! Even better than my book !
He got lots of illustrations, in color, how to build your own armor
So everything is explained in detail !
Now I understand about the plates and the lacing. Still some part I don't understand. His illustration for the "boards" is a cutaway, not 3D, so I still don't undetrstand where the wooden board  (or other material to replace the wood) go in there
(that for ione of the piece, shoulder plate I think - the cuirass is different)

Yeah that website is really great for people who are new to the subject.
The "boards", he is not talking about a wooden board or anything, when a number of scales are laced together horizontally they are referred to as a board, an example is shown on his website.
The scales that make up a board are made of leather and steel, alternating, as in side by side ;) (so you had the right idea).
The lacquer is there to protect the armor against moisture, as moisture will rot the rawhide and the iron/steel will corrode, the lacquer does not glue the scales together, that's what the lace is for.
A finished board of scales would be laced to another board of scales with suspencory lace so they overlap eachother, then another board will be laced to the second board, and another to that one, they will form the cuirass and tassets.
Just keep reading the website, it has all the information you need (but if you do have questions, just ask).

The thing with composite suits is this: someone (a collector or dealer) sees a nice cuirass for sale and buys it for a low price, then he buys some armored sleeves and leg armor that originally belonged to another armor set, then he buys some cheap kabuto and puts the whole set together.
An expert can see if the armor is a composite, but other people won't have a clue, composite armors are avoided by serious collectors and museums as they are historically worthless and antiques that are incomplete are just not very desireable to own, an old matching suit like my armor is what is valuable and worth collecting.
Sometimes, a composite suit ends up looking like a clowns suit with different colors of lacquer and mismatching lace or cloth backing, it's always good for a laugh though :P

Samurai never mismatched their armor, if something was damaged it either got repaired or properly replaced in matching style.
Do note that it's not uncommon for a helmet bowl to have originally belonged to another armor, that sort of thing happened when a samurai ordered a new armor but wanted to use the helmet bowl that originally belonged to his father or grandfather.
It was also common for an armorer to use old helmet bowls that were popular, those suits are considered matching suits.

I was watching this today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt9de6mjaNQ&feature=PlayList&p=8E3E0116246D5B34&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5 Awsome! :green: 
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Japanese War Gear - (pics)
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2009, 08:29:10 pm »
Hey! Hang on... where the hell did SantasHelper go?
I wanted to reply to a couple of his PM's, but it said the profile doesn't exist :shock:
And now I see all of his posts are gone  ???
Did he delete everything himself or did he get banned?
Weird.


EDIT:
Ok, this thread on Taleworlds makes it obvious that SantasHelper stopped modding and deleted all of his work, posts, threads and his profiles both here and there.
]http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,72494.0.html]

Deleting the posts here was a bit over the top unnecessary, now the last couple of posts look out of context, good thing I quoted him a lot.
I wish I found out about all of this before I tried to reply to his PM with a long post, oh well :green:

All of this was rather unexpected, considering I had quite the PM conversation with him about Japanese armor and modding.
Well SantasHelper, if you ever need more info about the subject for some reason, you know how and where to reach me.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 09:40:01 pm by Ichimonji Hidetora »
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"