Author Topic: The 1257 Edition *Update: v1.4 for M&B 1.011*  (Read 103426 times)

Offline Spanky

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Re: The 1257 Edition *updated* (v1.1)
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2008, 04:04:41 PM »
Timpkin, this is the first time that I've seen the Earlier Days mod, so your guess is as good as mine. You're right, the cultures and the timeframe are very similar - it looks like several modders are interpreting the game's setting in a similar way. Chaos at the Gates would be another example. There are a few subtle differences in terms of culture, in that the Swadians here are based on the Livonian Order rather than the Teutonic (which makes historical sense), and that the Northern Kingdom doesn't correspond exactly to the Danes but is deliberately left to represent any of several historical powers.

Judging by a first glance, they are adding a lot more features than I am, and already tweaking game mechanics heavily. My philosophy was (and is) to focus on the few elements that are necessary to make the experience feel authentic - as few as possible - and get those right through proper research and design. The rest is left up to Taleworlds' original build. If anything, the visuals in this mod have turned out fairly strong because of this approach (see link above), but I haven't seen screenshots of Early Days so I can't compare.

The next update will focus on more historic tournaments, and authentic-looking heraldry for knights. In the mid-term, I intend to add realism mods like Chel's battle morale and maybe formations, though there still seem to be a few minor issues to iron out with the latter. I'm extremely busy with real life right now so I'm not sure when the next update will be, and how much it will include. RCM is also on the agenda, but that might not happen before M&B is released, and porting from .960 might take some time.

Hi

What's the differences between your mod and the older(.903) Earlier Days mod?  http://www.moddb.com/mods/earlier-days

Quote
Each game faction approximates one or more real world cultures. Swadia equals the crusading orders of the era particularly the Teutonic Order. Vaegirs primarily the Kievan Rus with some Novogrod, Polish and Lithuanian influence. Khergits the Mongols and to a lesser extent the Kipchaks and Pechenegs. Nords the early medieval Danes. Rhodoks are a mix of the Old Prussians, Finno-Ugarian peoples and other northern Baltic tribes.

Sounds like you both came with exactly the same idea. Could you please elaborate on what(or will) set yours apart from this one?


« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 04:09:10 PM by Spanky »

timpkin

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Re: The 1257 Edition *updated* (v1.1)
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2008, 11:20:40 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to reply.  And another thanks for mentioning Chaos at the Gates I seem to have missed that one.  I'm sorry to hear you're going with RCM though.  That's a dealbreaker for me right there.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The 1257 Edition *updated* (v1.1)
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2008, 06:23:04 AM »
Hi Spanky, your mod is the first I've installed for v960 and it's fun - no dramatic difference, but definitely looks better.

One really work-unintensive thing you could do to improve immersion would be to prune the weapons that were not in common use in 1257, to wit (and I'm open to corrections here);

*Two-handed swords
*Bastard swords (they're XV century, but you could rename them Sword of war, which were the 1/2H swords of the XII-XIV centuries)
*Pikes (arguable, they were AFAIK first revived by the Scots during the 1st Scotish war of independence in 1296 AD)
*Hammers
*Pole Axe
*All those ugly stone-on-a-stick weapons
*Siege and possibly heavy crossbow (military crossbows of the XIII century did not yet require windlass cranking)

Will add more if anything springs to mind...

That should leave soldiers armed with swords, axes, maces and spears in melee combat. Would feel more period, and if you go with RCM (which I'd heartily recommend) then that will go a long way towards play balancing.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 06:29:53 AM by The Yogi »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The 1257 Edition *updated* (v1.1)
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2008, 08:34:40 AM »
That might be cutting a little deep.  A lot of that stuff was around, and just not popular.

The European military hammers date back to the pickaxes issued to the Roman legions ... although they were not specifically designed as a weapon, they got used as weapons often enough for people to learn a respect for military hammers.  They only became really popular after the brigandine and partial plate armors started making cutting weapons considerably less effective.  There are surviving obviously weaponized hammers from the 9th century and before - they just weren't the dominant sidearm yet.

Same with pole-axe class weapons - they've been around for a very long time, even though the high point of their use was a good deal later than the 1250's.  Ditto on pikes - the pike formations wouldn't really become procedure for a few more years, but the idea of longer spears was out there.  (Placing entire units of pikemen or halberds in 1257 would be out of period ... having a few such weapons around would not.)  Heck, I can't remember the date on the digs at Lucerne off the top of my head, but I think the "Lucerne hammers" (the single biggest source of knowledge about European pole-axes) don't date too far off of the 1250's.  Halberds would get a lot longer over the next hundred years or so.

There were some over-sized swords that early ... but again, it would not be for a few more years before absolutely everybody would either have to go to a huge sword or something with better armor penetration.  Various tribes were using large two-handed swords back as early as the Roman period.  However, it is effectively correct that they should be somewhat of an oddity in the 1200's.

The pole-axe and the obviously hideous stone pole-hammer do need better models.  (I think I still have the ones I made for the weapon re-size ... tell me where to send them.  They weren't great, but they were workable, low poly, and used native textures.)

Anyway, cutting them out completely might be excessive ... but rearming troops to better fit the pattern is not a bad idea.

And that is correct on the crossbows - really heavy crossbows were not in use just because there was no armor in use heavy enough to justify such a clumsy weapon.  A more moderate crossbow that could be loaded and fired sometime today was a lot more useful.

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The 1257 Edition *updated* (v1.1)
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2008, 04:32:30 PM »
Thanks for the reality check Ron!

Anyway, this only makes it easier for you Spanky -no need to prune the items file, just the troop loadouts to weed out most instances of those weapons.

Regarding that, according to an article on bucklers by John Clements on the ARMA website, a falchion/short sword and a buckler was the most common armament for commoner troops during much of the middle ages - far earlier, it seems, than at least my preconceptions would have placed them (XV to early XVI century). Since there are no bucklers in M&B, a small round shield would make a nice aproximation. So a gambeson/padded jack, small shield and a short blade or axe, perhaps a helmet... there you have what a great many of the lower tier foot troops should be fighting with, if you want to be true to history (this would be one cut above those fighting with farm implements).

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The 1257 Edition *updated* (v1.1)
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2008, 07:58:39 PM »
That's another one ... the Native falchion doesn't do justice to an entire class of very common and very effective weapons.  But there is no problem with the time frame ... heck, one of the surviving swords owned and used by Charlemagne was a single-edge curved falchion.  It wasn't just commoners - a good heavy single-hand sword (or mace, hammer or axe) and some kind of shield, and probably a spear, was pretty much procedure for everybody from kings to recruits.  (Of course, the kings had better armor.)

Offline The Yogi

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Re: The 1257 Edition *updated* (v1.1)
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2008, 02:59:17 PM »
Eh... I didn't think there was a problem with the time frame of the falchion. As far as I understand, they were common as muck during the period, and popular with commoners because, just like with axes, you only need a little good steel for the edge, making them cheaper than swords, and with that stiff, heavy blade, they could be used as tools just like machetes. That's apparently why there are relatively few left. Makes sense that they would be used a lot in war too by people unable to afford more dedicated weaponry. Compare with the popularity of machetes in modern african conflicts...

I think that in .960 at least, the native Falchion is not a weapon to be frowned at. It cuts lie a saber or high-end sword, and if it is a little slower and with shorter reach, that is to be expected by a short, very heavy blade, right? Only thing it really lacks is some thrusting damage. Is it realistic? You tell me, but I would be surprised if it's greatly underrated.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The 1257 Edition *updated* (v1.1)
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2008, 06:32:43 PM »
I actually meant that the 3D model for the falchion used in Native is a really poor example of falchions.  It's the cheapest, most clumsy-looking excuse for a falchion that I've seen in a long time.

Offline hayate666

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Re: The 1257 Edition *updated* (v1.1)
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2008, 02:01:25 AM »
This mod is looking really good! As soon as it gets RCM, it's going on my download list!

Offline Spanky

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Re: The 1257 Edition *Now for M&B 1.011*
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2008, 10:37:03 AM »

It's been a long time coming, but here it is... 1257 Edition v1.2, thoroughly revised and updated for the commercial version of Mount & Blade (1.011).

See the first entry in this thread for a link to new screenshots and the download page.

In short, this is what the mod was originally meant to be. There is a lot of new content here such as a more extensive and pure approach to heraldry and the knightly tournaments that makes this a more complete experience, and it benefits from the refined 1.0 build of M&B.

Not in here yet due to complications with scripting and porting are: RCM, morale and formations. But have a look at the features list: I don't think you'll be disappointed. 

MrQwerty

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Re: The 1257 Edition *Now for M&B 1.011*
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2008, 01:39:47 PM »
So um.. Why'd you remove the factions' colors? Makes the map look rather drab, not to mention it's difficult to form an overall image of the situation once a few months have passed.

Offline Spanky

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Re: The 1257 Edition *Now for M&B 1.011*
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2008, 03:03:49 PM »
I prefer the no-colors variant provided by the TaleWorlds designers because a) the faction colors are rather gawdy and b), and more importantly, this emphasizes the banners on the various cities and castles, i.e. heraldry over the faction color. I'm making a point about how this is the way the world was perceived in the middle ages. You learn to recognize a lord's banner, then when you see that banner flying over a castle you know it is his. They didn't have HUDs. ;)

This mode, btw, still gives you all the information you need when you put the cursor over a town or city: faction and friend / foe.

If you want to change it back, go to your module.ini file and look for the following entry at the bottom.

show_faction_color = 0

Change it to "1".

So um.. Why'd you remove the factions' colors? Makes the map look rather drab, not to mention it's difficult to form an overall image of the situation once a few months have passed.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 03:53:08 PM by Spanky »

NICK.ALTMAN

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Re: The 1257 Edition *Now for M&B 1.011*
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2008, 03:47:14 AM »
Hi! This mod looks really great. Raz's helmets and all these nice surcoats really impress me. My favorite feature so far are the tournaments. It's really more authentic this way. Check my mod and maybe you get some ideas. You are missing kingdom features to be more complete.

Cheers

Nick

P.S.
I noticed that my troops that have custom shileds don't have my banner on it. I have a custom shield and the coat of arms appears on it. But on troop shields, no. They have default red and black pattern. A bug?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 04:19:47 AM by NICK.ALTMAN »

Offline Spanky

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Re: The 1257 Edition *Now for M&B 1.011*
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2008, 05:16:43 AM »
Hey Nick, glad you like it and I'd be delighted to check out your mod for ideas, haven't come across it so far. I'm aware that there are many features that could be added to the 1257 Edition and I am looking to build on this gradually as time permits. 1.2 is the basic setup - how I would have liked the original game to be out of the box. Future updates will focus on gameplay features.

Custom shields, but without your banner? That's strange. Hardly any of the troops aside from the mercenaries and Khergits are supposed to have custom shields - I'm sure you're aware of the concept, it's a realism feature - but the black and red pattern is also used on some non-custom shields, e.g. by Rhodoks and Nords. What faction are you playing?


Hi! This mod looks really great. Raz's helmets and all these nice surcoats really impress me. My favorite feature so far are the tournaments. It's really more authentic this way. Check my mod and maybe you get some ideas. You are missing kingdom features to be more complete.

Cheers

Nick

P.S.
I noticed that my troops that have custom shileds don't have my banner on it. I have a custom shield and the coat of arms appears on it. But on troop shields, no. They have default red and black pattern. A bug?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 05:18:34 AM by Spanky »

NICK.ALTMAN

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Re: The 1257 Edition *Now for M&B 1.011*
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2008, 08:43:57 AM »
Hey Nick, glad you like it and I'd be delighted to check out your mod for ideas, haven't come across it so far. I'm aware that there are many features that could be added to the 1257 Edition and I am looking to build on this gradually as time permits. 1.2 is the basic setup - how I would have liked the original game to be out of the box. Future updates will focus on gameplay features.

Custom shields, but without your banner? That's strange. Hardly any of the troops aside from the mercenaries and Khergits are supposed to have custom shields - I'm sure you're aware of the concept, it's a realism feature - but the black and red pattern is also used on some non-custom shields, e.g. by Rhodoks and Nords. What faction are you playing?


Hi! This mod looks really great. Raz's helmets and all these nice surcoats really impress me. My favorite feature so far are the tournaments. It's really more authentic this way. Check my mod and maybe you get some ideas. You are missing kingdom features to be more complete.

Cheers

Nick

P.S.
I noticed that my troops that have custom shileds don't have my banner on it. I have a custom shield and the coat of arms appears on it. But on troop shields, no. They have default red and black pattern. A bug?

It might be what you said. Some rhodoks and nord soldiers had those shields. I thought they were custom not working. Will get back to you when I play some more. My mod is new. But its quite a hit cause it's a compilation of couple of other mods in nice wrap up.