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Author Topic: Ancient History  (Read 16429 times)

Offline fujiwara

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Ancient History
« on: June 18, 2008, 10:21:24 PM »
This is a dump of some old, OLD conversations had back with the mod was young and barely working. It gives you an idea of where many of the current features came from, what directions we were headed in, and how much stuff there is left to implement. A good read for those interested in the history of the mod.

The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

Offline fujiwara

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 10:22:01 PM »
With more knowledge of what is and isn't possible, we should look at exactly how Onin no Ran will play. LOTR: The Final Days in particular has some very interesting mechanics that I didn't think was possible at first. Here are some ideas for mechanics:


Onin War Gameplay -

Once/if a player is allied with Hosokawa or Yamana, the Onin war is the focus of your quests and gameplay. Your lord will give you assignments, and other NPCs perhaps will give reports of the opposing faction's strength (ala LOTR Final Days). You start off with little influence, your lord giving you a retinue of a few samurai. Based on your performance, he will assign new warriors to you (Perhaps you can request what troop type, or have the lord essentially be a troop hirer person, but with no initial price, and have troop availability be scripted). In addition to being more realistic (Samurai weren't hired, while ashigaru basically were), this gives the feel of having to trust in your lord's judgement. And perhaps there would be an option, if you end up doing so badly that your lord refuses to give you troops, or even orders you to commit seppeku, to defect to neutrality or to the other faction.

While Samurai aren't hired, they did have wages (right?). But don't worry, so do you, depending on your influence.

But in addition to the samurai given to you every so often, you can also hire ashigaru from your hometown. After gaining some influence by performing well, and more towns hear word of your deeds, you may hire from other towns under your factions control, and eventually, smaller factions allied with yours through quests (perhaps these quests to gain alliance with smaller factions are only avalable to the kuge class, balancing out the gameplay styles) will give you warriors and the ability to hire ashigaru from their towns.

Also, NPC followers that you find at Inns across the map are hireable/obtainable by players allied with Hosokawa/Yamana.


Wanderer (Neutral) Gameplay -

If the player does not ally with Hosokawa or Yamana, there should still be a lot of gameplay variety for them. Wanderer classes can take on some quests that wouldn't normally appear for the faction-allied classes, such as escort quests (a random caravan wouldnt possibly ask a high ranking bushi with a 40 samurai retinue to protect him from bandits on his travels), and some interesting, short, story-driven quests.

Bandits:
For bandits, just about any party should be attackable, while just about any party that's armed will be just as likely to attack first. The bandit's home camp might be well hidden high in the mountains, and there they can sell prisoners, along with their other spoils, and hire other bandits relatively cheap. I think we can also have raidable villages; add a dialogue option to go to a seperate scene like the arena, and award spoils upon victory. Further, more elaborate gameplay for bandits escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure theres something more we can do.

Merchants:
I'm not sure if merchants should be able to join a faction... merchants were a lower class and I don't think they'd ever be able to rise to a point where they were given control of warriors, so there doesn't seem to be much point in it. I see the merchant class as a sly opportunist who would talk his way into any territory and sell Hosokawa's goods to Yamana for a profit. But, the most profitable goods might come from the territories that are rife with bandits, who don't care for talk. Also, I think the economy that we want can be done, so this should also be great to play around with to make a much more intersting landscape for merchant gameplay.

Ronin:
The everyman class. Through one or two quests he can join either faction and essentially become similar to the bushi class for that faction, with better skills but no hometown to hire ashigaru from (to start off with). Perhaps he can join the bandit faction as well. Ronin can hire just about any npc follower, and also other ronin (troop type). Also, perhaps there could be a long quest line (if non-allied) to be a Yojimbo for a certain person, that might tie into the Onin storyline.

Kengo:
Having trouble determining how the Kengo would play... we've thought about restricting them to NPC followers and the free but limited in number "disciple" troop type... but it seems like they should be able to join a main faction and gain ranks therein, just like ronin, and those two don't seem to fit together unless we devise some arbitrary reason...
Could simply play similar to Ronin with some class specific quests regarding teaching/learning swordsmanship.

Monk/Nun:
One option is to create a mini story/quest line involving the rivalry between Jodo Shinsu and Tendai sects, and essentially have similar mechanics to the main factions of the Onin war. But one thing I've been wondering about is exactly how the two factions and the two Bhuddist sects interacted during this time, if at all.
Otherwise, they could play similar to ronin but with some class specific quests regarding the sects.

Shinobi:
PENDING :)

Anyhow, they have access to ninja weapons in the "hidden" ninja villages in Iga and Omi. The two different Ninja schools, Iga and Koga, should not represent rival factions, but simply different fighting styles.

Miscellaneous Ideas -

In addition to there being a few unique weapons held by NPCs or obtained through quests, through some circumstances, you will locate a famous hermetic sword/bow maker. For an extremely high amount of money, he will create a weapon for you (meaning, since it is made for you specifically, it will outperform all other weapons of its type in your hands). But, the process will take time, 20-30 days perhaps.


(To be edited/continued)

All this is easy enough to implement. We just need to decide what exactly we're going to do and freeze it so that coding can being. I was thinking about specific missions for bushi allied with one faction or the other:

1st: defeat one (or several) bandit parties harassing local villages
2nd: assault a bandit hideout
3rd: defeat a minor party of the enemy faction
4th defeat rampaging sohei
5th: escort allied kuge
6th: defeat a major party of the enemy faction
7th: defeat the general/daimyo of enemy faction

Each success would bring added rank, wages, troops, items. I also would like a quest where one assists the Tennou and is rewarded with a (minor) court rank, which comes with prestige, more wages, etc.


I've been giving some thought to how the missions should be structured. The current M&B system awards quest points for each mission completed successfully, with more difficult missions having a higher point value. We could also have a more linear progression, such as A -> B -> C, etc, or a combination of the two. We can also have a branching quest progression that could be based on who the player has spoken to in the past and what was said (or heard). All these things are possible. Seeing as how we're still in limbo regarding models, meshes, etc, I think now is a good time to get the plot/missions fleshed out, at least to a testable state.

I just finished my last final for the semester, so I'm ready to get into this h4rDc0r3 :)

Edit: does anyone remember the idea about having Kyoto being some sort of permanent battle ground? I just realized, the Zendar arena IS a permanent battleground, just on a smaller scale. It's a scn file, just like the rest. If we could model a scn file for the whole city, we'd be in business. As far as placing troops, etc, the mechanics are already there waiting to be copied and the proper troops added. It'd be LARGE, but exceeding cool.


I agree, I've been reading through Ryuta's massive posts on the history of the Onin war and trying to glean some idea of the kind of story we should assemble. For quest structure, I think I like having each (most) classes have a specific quest line; this gives tremendous replay value, especially with the number of classes we have. And therefore, I was thinking, we should put together the Kuge's quest line/story first, since it would be the most complex plot- and history-wise, and we could then derive each other class' quest lines from, and relative to, that. I think a linear line for each class will be ok to keep things simple, with maybe one or two splits for some of them (kuge would be a natural choice).

I've been wondering about the Kyoto battleground idea recently, and starting to move away from liking it since it doesn't seem too relevant to the history at the point we'd set our mod in (the battles in Kyoto were early on, I believe (not sure though, haven't finished reading Ryuta's posts Smile) and it was pretty much in smoldering ruins for the rest of the war, but we'll see). But now that you mention that, it would be a cool for a glorified arena feature.


So, using glorified arena, we can make street battle? If so, it's nice to add one or two of them as a mission.

It came up in my mind that, in the late stage of war, Yanama army attacked Shokokuji temple, one of the last major stronghold of Hosokawa party. Yamana's army literally dashed up narrow streets, penetrating several Hosokawa defence. The day after, Hosokawa army counter attacked them holding half-ruined Shokokuji temple.
So, we can make for Yamana-side a quest to penetrate Hosokawa defence in street battle as the spearhead for main army(this won't appear in game), Hosokawa side to defeat some Yamana troops to prevent them flooding into Hosokawa controlled area and Imperial palace (slightly far from Shokokuji temple). The next mission would be take place in ruined temple. Hosokawa's side trying to push Yamana out of the temple, Yamana side's mission takes place slightly later timeline, trying to stop Hosokawa army (by defeating them) to secure the army's retreat.

What do you think? I think these would be really nice as later quests.
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:47 pm    Reply with quote
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Hah, that sounds awesome. The only problem is the fact that the AI doesn't detect walls. So, complicated interior spaces are pretty much a no-go, but, with some creative modelling/mapping, I think street battles and wide-open interiors are possible without all the AI getting stuck in corners. Potentially, we could do a series of maps to represent different rooms of a larger structure, with a little dialogue screen in between each. Cumbersome, but I think it might work well, since w ecould insert little narratives as the battle progresses.
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:31 pm    Reply with quote
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I just had an idea of how we could do Kyoto. Once you enter Kyoto, it comes up with a prompt to where you want to travel to, split between 4 or 5 physical areas of Kyoto, North, South, East, West, and maybe Central or another special area. Yamana was known to be set up in the West and Hosokawa in the East, so these would be sort of the HQs for each faction, with appropriate npcs, etc. Then the other areas could be arena type battle areas. Each area would be modelled uniquely (eventually). This will give Kyoto a real sense of size and give each faction an area within it (as it was historically).
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:26 am    Reply with quote
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Here's a quick outline for what the Bushi quest line might look like (I know I said we should do Kuge's first, but I had these ideas in my head all day Razz) I guess this would be the same line that the neutral classes would get if they side with that faction, though I think the Kuge line would be different. Or, either each neutral class goes into either the bushi or kuge quest line, or it could be the players choice, I'm not sure how to do that. We may also want to keep the Bushi and Kuge faction quest lines exclusive, to boost replay value.

- Begin as lowly retainer to a lord of your faction, located in a small town.
- Lord asks you to go on a special mission (nothing that requires significant equipment or numbers, possibly aiding a larger army).
- Your success is rewarded with money, possibly an item.
- Repeat a number of times.
- Your lord notices your loyalty and good work, and grants you a small Shoen (fief), represented only by a small retinue of samurai warriors, and a weekly revenue of koku from the village's fields.
- More important missions are given, tying into the Onin war and sometimes issued by the Daimyo.
- Upon success, significant item rewards, and more warriors.
- A major battle approaches, your lord will be participating in it along with you (could be the battle for Shokokuji Temple).
- After the battle, a messenger approaches you and tells you the Daimyo would like to see you.
- Daimyo explains that your lord has fallen in the battle, but has noticed your skill and previous successes, and as your lord had no successors, grants you his title, fiefdom, and perhaps his other retainers.
- Your late lord's town now becomes yours, with a large amount of warriors available, and significant revenue.
- Missions now issued directly by the Daimyo and involve large battles, perhaps random from then on, or perhaps more linear quests that have an eventual conclusion.

With the new fiefdom you own, we could do interesting things with the menu system in the town. There could be an Attendant NPC, with whom you can talk to and change things in the town, perhaps paying to upgrade the town in certain ways.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:04 pm    Reply with quote
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Wow...lots of stuff going on Smile I've been working on getting to some sort of playble state (not there, of course), but I've made some progress on getting all the basic stuff out of the way. Have a look particularly at the module_game_menus.py, module_triggers.py, and module_dialogs.py, along with whatever accompaying files you need to.

Features:

Spilt the functions of the old tavern into an inn and a teahouse. The inn is where you sleep and hire farmer troops (which upgrade to ashiagru and yari ashigaru). The teahouse is where you can hear the latest gossip and hire ronin/faction-specific samurai, AFTER, of course, patronizing the establishment first. I've got huge plans for the gossiping as a means of gathering information and a vehicle to hand out side-quests, with gender-, class-, and faction- specific stuff, once the quests are planned and fleshed out. This could also work in both directions, with the proprietor weasling information out of you and passing it on (via control objects), which could get the player in hot water with his daimyo.

While I don't think it's possible to make the shinobi village selectively visible, it is possible to make its inhabitants refuse to do business with the player unless he/she is a shinobi, and that has been implemented in the dialogs.

During character creation, faction selection has its own screen, before class selection but after gender selection.

Bugs:

Nothing works. I tested the faction selection routine on a virgin M&B, and it works fine. I keep getting some kind of buffer/token error, as if I'm calling an as yet unassigned variable, but I can find no such variable. Will continue looking. If you want to be a fresh pair of eyes, feel lree :)

Still to do:

How to force a trigger to fire at start up. To get the bar tabs to work properly, I've got a trigger set up to initialize all the bar tab variables at start up, and fire once. However, I don't know how to fire the trigger.

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I like all ideas!

Gossipping as the introduction for side quests are pretty good and gives a lot of feel, though coding would be hectic. s it possible to give a character a quest which can be ignored?
I mean;
1) a guy in tea house said 'I saw a group of bandit (samurai, kuge, or whatever) near X.' During some conversation.
2) If you defeat them, you'll get reward from your master.
3) If you don't, they simply moved to a town and quest ends (like in Raider quest) with no punishment.
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:30 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Erm, btw, Fuji, a new versino of both M&B and the module system were released... no wonder I'm having problems getting this to work lol... shouldn't be too much work to bring it up to date though, there weren't many changes.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:33 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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AH! This is what I get for having sporadic net access (I surf at my parents, I code at home)...

Downloading now...will have a look at it later.

P.S. - GLad you like it!

And yes, quests can be ignored, or have no negative consequences if failed. It's all a matter of coding.

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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:15 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Some progress made:

Bushi missions are taking shape. For now I've taken the original missions from the OMB until we come up with ones we like better. I've separated them into two tiers, with the more difficult missions being assigned after the player has moved up in rank. Once the play reaches rank 6 (title TBD), a new quest opens up, assigned by the Daimyo. Once accepted, this quest leads to the death of the player's lord (assigned when a player pledges allegience to a faction), and, upon successful completion of the mission, the player assuming the duties of the lord. Failure of this "super-mission" means expulsion from the faction with no chance of returning. I going to start formulating some "high-level" missions assigned by the Daimyo after successful completion of this super-mission. This should enable the player to reach the higher ranks that would have taken literally months of play in the OM&B. As far as civil administration goes, the player is going to be limited to making monetary investments in the city, with a regular income coming back to the player. The thought also just occured to me of having improved "police" parties spawn from the city as more investment is made.

Rank advancement is now tied to the number of troops in one's party, which reflects the feudal requirement that a samurai with an income was required to supply his own troops, and that those with higher incomes had to support more troops. I'm trying to decide whether or not to require specific troop types...thoughts?

Work continues on the teahouse and associated missions. Some look similar to the OM&B merchant missions (deliver goods, return kidnapped girl), but we'll see if that lasts.

Need ideas for missions for the other character classes.

This thing is getting LARGE Smile

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:01 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Wow, when it rains, it pours Smile Sounds like you've been hard at work, if a little quiet.

fujiwara wrote:
Bushi missions are taking shape. For now I've taken the original missions from the OMB until we come up with ones we like better. I've separated them into two tiers, with the more difficult missions being assigned after the player has moved up in rank. Once the play reaches rank 6 (title TBD), a new quest opens up, assigned by the Daimyo. Once accepted, this quest leads to the death of the player's lord (assigned when a player pledges allegience to a faction), and, upon successful completion of the mission, the player assuming the duties of the lord. Failure of this "super-mission" means expulsion from the faction with no chance of returning.


Hmm, I hadn't thought of what should happen if the player fails that mission. Actually, I think the way it should be worked out is, since the historical outcome is absolute and we arent really planning to make the storyline dynamic, the mission shouldn't be fail-able. You can die of course, but the resolution of the mission would be related to you through dialogue. Your lord's death is definite, and maybe your promotion is too, but that's actually something that could be dynamic. Having a quest be all-or-nothing, especially without giving the player warning, is a little harsh.

fujiwara wrote:
I going to start formulating some "high-level" missions assigned by the Daimyo after successful completion of this super-mission. This should enable the player to reach the higher ranks that would have taken literally months of play in the OM&B. As far as civil administration goes, the player is going to be limited to making monetary investments in the city, with a regular income coming back to the player. The thought also just occured to me of having improved "police" parties spawn from the city as more investment is made.


Sounds cool. Actually I've been wondering exactly what each AI behavior does, so I can have a better idea of how we can manipulate armies. Like, "patrol town", etc.... exactly how big an area does it patrol?

fujiwara wrote:
Rank advancement is now tied to the number of troops in one's party, which reflects the feudal requirement that a samurai with an income was required to supply his own troops, and that those with higher incomes had to support more troops. I'm trying to decide whether or not to require specific troop types...thoughts?


Hmm, not sure I understand this. Exactly how is it related? If you hire more troops you go up in rank automatically? Or increasing in rank increases the number of troops available to you? And yes, it should be only samurai units, ashigaru and neutral troop types shouldn't be counted.

fujiwara wrote:
Work continues on the teahouse and associated missions. Some look similar to the OM&B merchant missions (deliver goods, return kidnapped girl), but we'll see if that lasts.


(and going back a few posts)

fujiwara wrote:
Spilt the functions of the old tavern into an inn and a teahouse. The inn is where you sleep and hire farmer troops (which upgrade to ashiagru and yari ashigaru). The teahouse is where you can hear the latest gossip and hire ronin/faction-specific samurai, AFTER, of course, patronizing the establishment first.


Actually, Ryuta was saying tea and teahouses weren't prevelant until the 16th century, so I'm thinking we should just roll all of those into the Inn, which is fine by me. Ashigaru should be hireable also in villages that don't have an inn, and likewise, ronin, etc. should only be available in town/city inns. I'm going to whip up a document on locations and options available at each to plan this out.
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Ryuta    
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:07 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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My opinion is the character should be expelled from the faction. The war still goes on and you have to make a great contribution to that faction, or you'll be contacted from the other side to join them.

Say, you're in Yamana side and you failed your super-mission. You're expelled from Yamana side (and your lord dies). You'll get a message from Yamana Mochitoyo, or other major Daimyo that if you coplete a mission (something really hard, like destroying several warbands), you'll be able to return to the Yamana faction as a lord (the same outcome as the successful super-mission). At the same time, you'll be contacted by Hosokawa side (or even other faction, like Imperial Court, or Bhuddist factions) to join them (your status would go to the beginning of the second tier rank).
It could be possible that at first, Hosokawa, (or others) saw them as a mercenary (do this and get paid) and when the character performed a few quests, they offered the place in their faction.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:06 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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*goes digging* well shoot...I'll have to respectfully disagree with Ryuta about the tea, since tea and Zen Buddhism are like peas and carrots (sorry, bad joke) but he's right about the teahouses...so now we've got troops, gossip, and sleeping all in the same place *scurries off to make changes*'

Quote:
Having a quest be all-or-nothing, especially without giving the player warning, is a little harsh.


In feudal Japan, every mission was harsh, failure was not tolerated, and nobody told you "Get this right, or you're fired.". I've noticed that in the original code there a variable for keeping track failed missions, but nothing is done with it. I really think there should some negative consequences for failure. There should also be some way of atoning for that failure (aside from committing seppuku, which isn't possible, aside from pulling the plug on the computer Laughing ).

Quote:
Sounds cool. Actually I've been wondering exactly what each AI behavior does, so I can have a better idea of how we can manipulate armies. Like, "patrol town", etc.... exactly how big an area does it patrol?


I'm only aware of the hold and travel_to_party behaviors...there are more?

Quote:
Hmm, not sure I understand this. Exactly how is it related? If you hire more troops you go up in rank automatically? Or increasing in rank increases the number of troops available to you?


Having a certain number of troops is a requirement for promotion, so that even if you have the needed number of quest points, if you don't have the minimum number of troops for the next rank, you don't get the promotion until you acquire them. Under the feudal system, the lowest rank of samurai with a rice income was the 100 koku samurai, and he was expected to have two armed and outfitted retainers. You see where all that rice went to...paying for clothes, horses and associated paraphanalia, weapons, armor...plus rice for eating. Therefore, I've set it up so that if you don't have at least 2 samurai type troops in your army, you won't be promoted from rank 0 to rank 1, and so forth.

I really wish I knew how to mod the troop wages, to make it really, painfully obvious how much it really cost to run an army. As it stands, I could hit a few Vaegir caravans (a couple days work) and have enough money to pay my army of 40+ for 6 months...somethings not right about that.

Ryuta has some good ideas (I especially like the mercenary idea) for atonement-type missions.

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:29 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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fujiwara wrote:
In feudal Japan, every mission was harsh, failure was not tolerated, and nobody told you "Get this right, or you're fired.". I've noticed that in the original code there a variable for keeping track failed missions, but nothing is done with it. I really think there should some negative consequences for failure. There should also be some way of atoning for that failure (aside from committing seppuku, which isn't possible, aside from pulling the plug on the computer Laughing ).


Well yeah, I meant from a gameplay perspective. But, yeah now I agree since forcing the expulsion would be in keeping with the "realistic" difficulty setting, and otherwise they could just load from a hopefully recent save if they didn't like the outcome Smile Since your lord dies, the expulsion could basically be a change to the ronin class (with its associated pros/cons), and the ability to atone.

fujiwara wrote:
I'm only aware of the hold and travel_to_party behaviors...there are more?


In the unofficial editor, if you bring up the parties file, the pulldown for AI Behavior contains quite a few variables, but I don't know if they are actually used in-game. None of the parties in the native file use an behavior settings other than hold and track party, but the game may dynamically set the behavior to something different under the right conditions.

Here they are:

Hold
Travel to Party
Patrol Location
Patrol Party
Track Party
Avoid Party
Travel to Point
Negotiate Party
In Town
Travel to Ship (!?)
Patrol Town


fujiwara wrote:
Having a certain number of troops is a requirement for promotion, so that even if you have the needed number of quest points, if you don't have the minimum number of troops for the next rank, you don't get the promotion until you acquire them. Under the feudal system, the lowest rank of samurai with a rice income was the 100 koku samurai, and he was expected to have two armed and outfitted retainers. You see where all that rice went to...paying for clothes, horses and associated paraphanalia, weapons, armor...plus rice for eating. Therefore, I've set it up so that if you don't have at least 2 samurai type troops in your army, you won't be promoted from rank 0 to rank 1, and so forth.


Ah, ok, that's cool.

fujiwara wrote:
I really wish I knew how to mod the troop wages, to make it really, painfully obvious how much it really cost to run an army. As it stands, I could hit a few Vaegir caravans (a couple days work) and have enough money to pay my army of 40+ for 6 months...somethings not right about that.


Yeah... we'll have to balance all the wages and item costs for everything after we get everything in.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:45 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I like the class change idea, since basically that is what's happening...you become a masterless samurai, a ronin.

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The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

Offline fujiwara

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 10:22:34 PM »
Ryuta    
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:02 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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As I read from the comodity thread about the conversation (The last one. Not mine, before), it is possible to make a conversation orientated quest?
If you can make a quest whose objective is to get the right conversation (or info), it would be great oppotunity to make a ninja quests.

My thoughts are:
1. Ninja quest. the character is asked to get a certain information. Upon accepting it, a party, or people with quest-object info (conversation) are spawned. You have to find and talk to them.

2. Aristocrat quest: Find some important items for ceremony/your superior. You have to talk to right person to make the item appears in a certain point, or shop.

3. Merchant quest: Almost same as the one above. Instead, you'll get rare comodity.
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:38 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Yeah, good ideas. I think you're underestimating the Kuge class though, gathering quests are very boring; I see the kuge quests as very story driven and rife with diplomatic intrigue. Here's a few notes I have on them:

- Relations with the emperor and shogun
- Emmisary quests, alliances made/broken
- Dealings and secret meetings to gain trust of Shugo and other kuge within Kyoto, other large cities, to side with your faction.
- Yamana spies in shogun's palace + investigation (event)

Also, as I was doing some research for them, I came across mentions of Shugo, officials placed in every province by the Ashikaga Shogunate during our period:

...an Ashikaga-related shugo could certify that an individual had performed meritorious action worthy of shogunal rewards. This power enabled them to garner local support to the detriment of the local elite.
From: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3686/is_200004/ai_n8899630

The Ashikaga shogunate, moreover, never became very strong, and with the eighth shogun, Ashikaga Yoshimasa, it virtually lost control of the country, giving rise to factionalism which ended in the Onin War. With continual fighting throughout the land, the shugo or provincial constables gradually developed into feudal lords in their own right, known as daimyo or shugo-daimyo.
From: http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/anthro2003/legacy/japanese_history.html

The Shogunate rested on an alliance with local military leaders (shugo), who gradually became powerful regional rulers. The great shugo, however, became more and more involved in the politics of the Shogunate, and by the mid-15th century many had lost control of their provincial bases. Their weakness became clear in the Onin War of 1467-1477. Beginning as a dispute over the Shogunal succession, it turned into a general civil war in which the great shugo exhausted themselves fighting in and around Kyoto, while the provinces fell into the hands of other shugo and eventually under the control of new lords called daimyo. The war effectively destroyed Ashikaga authority. The shogun Yoshimasa (ruled 1440-1473) simply turned his back on the troubles; he retired (1473) to his estate on the outskirts of Kyoto, where he built the Silver Pavilion (Ginkaku) and became the patron of a remarkable artistic flowering.
From: http://www.samurai-archives.com/los.html

We should definitely include these guys somehow, as quest NPCs or possibly a rank for kuge.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:11 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I think CE is right...the kuge has the potiential to be the most exciting story-wise class. And lets remember, just because Onin no Ran is historically based doesn't mean we have to stick with the historical timeline. I mean, how many American Civil War games are out there where the players can have the South win instead of the North? This idea of uncertainty of outcome is what makes gaming in general so much fun.

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:25 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Well, here is how I see it. I don't want to go so far as to make the final outcome dynamic. For one, it lasted 10 years and no one is going to play for that long. But, there is so much room to make our/the player's own story in between the real events, and on the outskirts of the known history. We can elaborate on why some things happened, when it's not known, weaving our own stories into the established history.
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Ryuta    
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:45 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I meant as Kuge plot as an example of many.

In Onin no Ran, Hosokawa used the title of Shugo as a bribe to drag Asakura clan (of Echizen, I think) into his side (Echizen was priviously governed by Yamana faction but Asakura rebelled against them and made an alliance with Hosokawa).

For example, Hosokawa clansmen were entitled 6 provinces (I think) and Yamana clan was once governed 11 provinces out of 66 provinces.
There's another official called Kanryo, which would govern more than one provinces. I'm not sure of its definite function, but it seems they acted as an regional governers. Good example was Uesugi Kenshin, who was given the title of Kanto Kanryo by a Shogun (Kanto is the place around Tokyo and contains 8 provinces).
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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:46 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Based on what CE has posted here and other places, it appears that the kuge (or someone who is awarded a court rank *wink*) will indeed have a great deal to do.

I started thinking about ronin quests, and I've fleshed out one that smacks of Seven Samurai: village is being raided by bandits, asked for help from character ronin, who then defeats the bandits in exchange for some food and a little money. Is this something (the Seven Samurai idea) we would like to pursue further, with an advanced ronin quest requiring 7 hero types, as opposed to just seven troops. There's not a direct way to determine which troops are heroes, but a counter can be set up to keep track of how many NPCs have joined the party, since they join separately (and in a different way) from hirable troops.

When we still had teahouses, I came up with the idea of player fame, so that characters who perform various tasks for people will earn fame points, and have their reputations preceed them, so to speak. This could open up certain quests unavailible to less famous characters. Obversely, a character, by failing missions, could loose so much fame they become infamous and be forced into banditry to survive. Now, of course there should be a mechanism to restore lost fame, so that one isn't a bandit forever. Thoughts?

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I like all ideas!

Gossipping as the introduction for side quests are pretty good and gives a lot of feel, though coding would be hectic. s it possible to give a character a quest which can be ignored?
I mean;
1) a guy in tea house said 'I saw a group of bandit (samurai, kuge, or whatever) near X.' During some conversation.
2) If you defeat them, you'll get reward from your master.
3) If you don't, they simply moved to a town and quest ends (like in Raider quest) with no punishment.
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:30 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Erm, btw, Fuji, a new versino of both M&B and the module system were released... no wonder I'm having problems getting this to work lol... shouldn't be too much work to bring it up to date though, there weren't many changes.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:33 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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AH! This is what I get for having sporadic net access (I surf at my parents, I code at home)...

Downloading now...will have a look at it later.

P.S. - GLad you like it!

And yes, quests can be ignored, or have no negative consequences if failed. It's all a matter of coding.

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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:15 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Some progress made:

Bushi missions are taking shape. For now I've taken the original missions from the OMB until we come up with ones we like better. I've separated them into two tiers, with the more difficult missions being assigned after the player has moved up in rank. Once the play reaches rank 6 (title TBD), a new quest opens up, assigned by the Daimyo. Once accepted, this quest leads to the death of the player's lord (assigned when a player pledges allegience to a faction), and, upon successful completion of the mission, the player assuming the duties of the lord. Failure of this "super-mission" means expulsion from the faction with no chance of returning. I going to start formulating some "high-level" missions assigned by the Daimyo after successful completion of this super-mission. This should enable the player to reach the higher ranks that would have taken literally months of play in the OM&B. As far as civil administration goes, the player is going to be limited to making monetary investments in the city, with a regular income coming back to the player. The thought also just occured to me of having improved "police" parties spawn from the city as more investment is made.

Rank advancement is now tied to the number of troops in one's party, which reflects the feudal requirement that a samurai with an income was required to supply his own troops, and that those with higher incomes had to support more troops. I'm trying to decide whether or not to require specific troop types...thoughts?

Work continues on the teahouse and associated missions. Some look similar to the OM&B merchant missions (deliver goods, return kidnapped girl), but we'll see if that lasts.

Need ideas for missions for the other character classes.

This thing is getting LARGE Smile

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:01 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Wow, when it rains, it pours Smile Sounds like you've been hard at work, if a little quiet.

fujiwara wrote:
Bushi missions are taking shape. For now I've taken the original missions from the OMB until we come up with ones we like better. I've separated them into two tiers, with the more difficult missions being assigned after the player has moved up in rank. Once the play reaches rank 6 (title TBD), a new quest opens up, assigned by the Daimyo. Once accepted, this quest leads to the death of the player's lord (assigned when a player pledges allegience to a faction), and, upon successful completion of the mission, the player assuming the duties of the lord. Failure of this "super-mission" means expulsion from the faction with no chance of returning.


Hmm, I hadn't thought of what should happen if the player fails that mission. Actually, I think the way it should be worked out is, since the historical outcome is absolute and we arent really planning to make the storyline dynamic, the mission shouldn't be fail-able. You can die of course, but the resolution of the mission would be related to you through dialogue. Your lord's death is definite, and maybe your promotion is too, but that's actually something that could be dynamic. Having a quest be all-or-nothing, especially without giving the player warning, is a little harsh.

fujiwara wrote:
I going to start formulating some "high-level" missions assigned by the Daimyo after successful completion of this super-mission. This should enable the player to reach the higher ranks that would have taken literally months of play in the OM&B. As far as civil administration goes, the player is going to be limited to making monetary investments in the city, with a regular income coming back to the player. The thought also just occured to me of having improved "police" parties spawn from the city as more investment is made.


Sounds cool. Actually I've been wondering exactly what each AI behavior does, so I can have a better idea of how we can manipulate armies. Like, "patrol town", etc.... exactly how big an area does it patrol?

fujiwara wrote:
Rank advancement is now tied to the number of troops in one's party, which reflects the feudal requirement that a samurai with an income was required to supply his own troops, and that those with higher incomes had to support more troops. I'm trying to decide whether or not to require specific troop types...thoughts?


Hmm, not sure I understand this. Exactly how is it related? If you hire more troops you go up in rank automatically? Or increasing in rank increases the number of troops available to you? And yes, it should be only samurai units, ashigaru and neutral troop types shouldn't be counted.

fujiwara wrote:
Work continues on the teahouse and associated missions. Some look similar to the OM&B merchant missions (deliver goods, return kidnapped girl), but we'll see if that lasts.


(and going back a few posts)

fujiwara wrote:
Spilt the functions of the old tavern into an inn and a teahouse. The inn is where you sleep and hire farmer troops (which upgrade to ashiagru and yari ashigaru). The teahouse is where you can hear the latest gossip and hire ronin/faction-specific samurai, AFTER, of course, patronizing the establishment first.


Actually, Ryuta was saying tea and teahouses weren't prevelant until the 16th century, so I'm thinking we should just roll all of those into the Inn, which is fine by me. Ashigaru should be hireable also in villages that don't have an inn, and likewise, ronin, etc. should only be available in town/city inns. I'm going to whip up a document on locations and options available at each to plan this out.
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Ryuta    
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:07 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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My opinion is the character should be expelled from the faction. The war still goes on and you have to make a great contribution to that faction, or you'll be contacted from the other side to join them.

Say, you're in Yamana side and you failed your super-mission. You're expelled from Yamana side (and your lord dies). You'll get a message from Yamana Mochitoyo, or other major Daimyo that if you coplete a mission (something really hard, like destroying several warbands), you'll be able to return to the Yamana faction as a lord (the same outcome as the successful super-mission). At the same time, you'll be contacted by Hosokawa side (or even other faction, like Imperial Court, or Bhuddist factions) to join them (your status would go to the beginning of the second tier rank).
It could be possible that at first, Hosokawa, (or others) saw them as a mercenary (do this and get paid) and when the character performed a few quests, they offered the place in their faction.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:06 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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*goes digging* well shoot...I'll have to respectfully disagree with Ryuta about the tea, since tea and Zen Buddhism are like peas and carrots (sorry, bad joke) but he's right about the teahouses...so now we've got troops, gossip, and sleeping all in the same place *scurries off to make changes*'

Quote:
Having a quest be all-or-nothing, especially without giving the player warning, is a little harsh.


In feudal Japan, every mission was harsh, failure was not tolerated, and nobody told you "Get this right, or you're fired.". I've noticed that in the original code there a variable for keeping track failed missions, but nothing is done with it. I really think there should some negative consequences for failure. There should also be some way of atoning for that failure (aside from committing seppuku, which isn't possible, aside from pulling the plug on the computer Laughing ).

Quote:
Sounds cool. Actually I've been wondering exactly what each AI behavior does, so I can have a better idea of how we can manipulate armies. Like, "patrol town", etc.... exactly how big an area does it patrol?


I'm only aware of the hold and travel_to_party behaviors...there are more?

Quote:
Hmm, not sure I understand this. Exactly how is it related? If you hire more troops you go up in rank automatically? Or increasing in rank increases the number of troops available to you?


Having a certain number of troops is a requirement for promotion, so that even if you have the needed number of quest points, if you don't have the minimum number of troops for the next rank, you don't get the promotion until you acquire them. Under the feudal system, the lowest rank of samurai with a rice income was the 100 koku samurai, and he was expected to have two armed and outfitted retainers. You see where all that rice went to...paying for clothes, horses and associated paraphanalia, weapons, armor...plus rice for eating. Therefore, I've set it up so that if you don't have at least 2 samurai type troops in your army, you won't be promoted from rank 0 to rank 1, and so forth.

I really wish I knew how to mod the troop wages, to make it really, painfully obvious how much it really cost to run an army. As it stands, I could hit a few Vaegir caravans (a couple days work) and have enough money to pay my army of 40+ for 6 months...somethings not right about that.

Ryuta has some good ideas (I especially like the mercenary idea) for atonement-type missions.

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:29 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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fujiwara wrote:
In feudal Japan, every mission was harsh, failure was not tolerated, and nobody told you "Get this right, or you're fired.". I've noticed that in the original code there a variable for keeping track failed missions, but nothing is done with it. I really think there should some negative consequences for failure. There should also be some way of atoning for that failure (aside from committing seppuku, which isn't possible, aside from pulling the plug on the computer Laughing ).


Well yeah, I meant from a gameplay perspective. But, yeah now I agree since forcing the expulsion would be in keeping with the "realistic" difficulty setting, and otherwise they could just load from a hopefully recent save if they didn't like the outcome Smile Since your lord dies, the expulsion could basically be a change to the ronin class (with its associated pros/cons), and the ability to atone.

fujiwara wrote:
I'm only aware of the hold and travel_to_party behaviors...there are more?


In the unofficial editor, if you bring up the parties file, the pulldown for AI Behavior contains quite a few variables, but I don't know if they are actually used in-game. None of the parties in the native file use an behavior settings other than hold and track party, but the game may dynamically set the behavior to something different under the right conditions.

Here they are:

Hold
Travel to Party
Patrol Location
Patrol Party
Track Party
Avoid Party
Travel to Point
Negotiate Party
In Town
Travel to Ship (!?)
Patrol Town


fujiwara wrote:
Having a certain number of troops is a requirement for promotion, so that even if you have the needed number of quest points, if you don't have the minimum number of troops for the next rank, you don't get the promotion until you acquire them. Under the feudal system, the lowest rank of samurai with a rice income was the 100 koku samurai, and he was expected to have two armed and outfitted retainers. You see where all that rice went to...paying for clothes, horses and associated paraphanalia, weapons, armor...plus rice for eating. Therefore, I've set it up so that if you don't have at least 2 samurai type troops in your army, you won't be promoted from rank 0 to rank 1, and so forth.


Ah, ok, that's cool.

fujiwara wrote:
I really wish I knew how to mod the troop wages, to make it really, painfully obvious how much it really cost to run an army. As it stands, I could hit a few Vaegir caravans (a couple days work) and have enough money to pay my army of 40+ for 6 months...somethings not right about that.


Yeah... we'll have to balance all the wages and item costs for everything after we get everything in.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:45 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I like the class change idea, since basically that is what's happening...you become a masterless samurai, a ronin.

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Ryuta    
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:02 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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As I read from the comodity thread about the conversation (The last one. Not mine, before), it is possible to make a conversation orientated quest?
If you can make a quest whose objective is to get the right conversation (or info), it would be great oppotunity to make a ninja quests.

My thoughts are:
1. Ninja quest. the character is asked to get a certain information. Upon accepting it, a party, or people with quest-object info (conversation) are spawned. You have to find and talk to them.

2. Aristocrat quest: Find some important items for ceremony/your superior. You have to talk to right person to make the item appears in a certain point, or shop.

3. Merchant quest: Almost same as the one above. Instead, you'll get rare comodity.
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:38 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Yeah, good ideas. I think you're underestimating the Kuge class though, gathering quests are very boring; I see the kuge quests as very story driven and rife with diplomatic intrigue. Here's a few notes I have on them:

- Relations with the emperor and shogun
- Emmisary quests, alliances made/broken
- Dealings and secret meetings to gain trust of Shugo and other kuge within Kyoto, other large cities, to side with your faction.
- Yamana spies in shogun's palace + investigation (event)

Also, as I was doing some research for them, I came across mentions of Shugo, officials placed in every province by the Ashikaga Shogunate during our period:

...an Ashikaga-related shugo could certify that an individual had performed meritorious action worthy of shogunal rewards. This power enabled them to garner local support to the detriment of the local elite.
From: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3686/is_200004/ai_n8899630

The Ashikaga shogunate, moreover, never became very strong, and with the eighth shogun, Ashikaga Yoshimasa, it virtually lost control of the country, giving rise to factionalism which ended in the Onin War. With continual fighting throughout the land, the shugo or provincial constables gradually developed into feudal lords in their own right, known as daimyo or shugo-daimyo.
From: http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/anthro2003/legacy/japanese_history.html

The Shogunate rested on an alliance with local military leaders (shugo), who gradually became powerful regional rulers. The great shugo, however, became more and more involved in the politics of the Shogunate, and by the mid-15th century many had lost control of their provincial bases. Their weakness became clear in the Onin War of 1467-1477. Beginning as a dispute over the Shogunal succession, it turned into a general civil war in which the great shugo exhausted themselves fighting in and around Kyoto, while the provinces fell into the hands of other shugo and eventually under the control of new lords called daimyo. The war effectively destroyed Ashikaga authority. The shogun Yoshimasa (ruled 1440-1473) simply turned his back on the troubles; he retired (1473) to his estate on the outskirts of Kyoto, where he built the Silver Pavilion (Ginkaku) and became the patron of a remarkable artistic flowering.
From: http://www.samurai-archives.com/los.html

We should definitely include these guys somehow, as quest NPCs or possibly a rank for kuge.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:11 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I think CE is right...the kuge has the potiential to be the most exciting story-wise class. And lets remember, just because Onin no Ran is historically based doesn't mean we have to stick with the historical timeline. I mean, how many American Civil War games are out there where the players can have the South win instead of the North? This idea of uncertainty of outcome is what makes gaming in general so much fun.

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The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

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Re: Ancient History
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:25 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Well, here is how I see it. I don't want to go so far as to make the final outcome dynamic. For one, it lasted 10 years and no one is going to play for that long. But, there is so much room to make our/the player's own story in between the real events, and on the outskirts of the known history. We can elaborate on why some things happened, when it's not known, weaving our own stories into the established history.
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Ryuta    
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:45 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I meant as Kuge plot as an example of many.

In Onin no Ran, Hosokawa used the title of Shugo as a bribe to drag Asakura clan (of Echizen, I think) into his side (Echizen was priviously governed by Yamana faction but Asakura rebelled against them and made an alliance with Hosokawa).

For example, Hosokawa clansmen were entitled 6 provinces (I think) and Yamana clan was once governed 11 provinces out of 66 provinces.
There's another official called Kanryo, which would govern more than one provinces. I'm not sure of its definite function, but it seems they acted as an regional governers. Good example was Uesugi Kenshin, who was given the title of Kanto Kanryo by a Shogun (Kanto is the place around Tokyo and contains 8 provinces).
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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:46 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Based on what CE has posted here and other places, it appears that the kuge (or someone who is awarded a court rank *wink*) will indeed have a great deal to do.

I started thinking about ronin quests, and I've fleshed out one that smacks of Seven Samurai: village is being raided by bandits, asked for help from character ronin, who then defeats the bandits in exchange for some food and a little money. Is this something (the Seven Samurai idea) we would like to pursue further, with an advanced ronin quest requiring 7 hero types, as opposed to just seven troops. There's not a direct way to determine which troops are heroes, but a counter can be set up to keep track of how many NPCs have joined the party, since they join separately (and in a different way) from hirable troops.

When we still had teahouses, I came up with the idea of player fame, so that characters who perform various tasks for people will earn fame points, and have their reputations preceed them, so to speak. This could open up certain quests unavailible to less famous characters. Obversely, a character, by failing missions, could loose so much fame they become infamous and be forced into banditry to survive. Now, of course there should be a mechanism to restore lost fame, so that one isn't a bandit forever. Thoughts?

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Wow...lots of good stuff.

Curiousepic wrote:
Actually I mean just a relatively simple scripted option to make time pass by and have items in your inventory disappear and gain money.


If I understand you correctly, you are talking about something similar to sleeping at the inn, where time passes much faster than usual. If so, this should be fairly easy to set up, once you get past setting up the menus. There is an operator called "rest_for_hours" that takes a number as an arguement and you (that's right) rest for that number of hours. This could be inserted into the larger "keeping shop" script to make time move by quickly. Now, deciding which inventory items to remove and how to get money for them is another, more beastly problem, since the operations related to the player's inventory and items are sparse. This code could get hairy.

Curiousepic wrote:
We could do that as an option right off the bat, and then after you gain fame or position with a Za you could buy a storefront in a town, and gain money from it year round, having an npc run it for you and you could talk to him to set different options.


I like this idea actually, but we should keep it as simple as possible, i.e. buy the space from the za and then draw an income from that point forth. Settings options would just get more complicated than is necessary. The buy-in price should also be fairly high, to keep the merchant in a travelling mode longer.

I had some ideas for the harvest scripts:

CE, you said you were going to start the game around July or August. I would argue for July 1 as the start date, since it's the first day of the second half of the year and provides a convinient start time for the summer harvest. The seasonal harvest lasts 30 days, With the summer harvest beginning July 1, the fall harvest Oct 1, and the spring harvest April 1. I would also argue for 12 30-day months, with an intercalary period of 5 days between 12/30 and 1/1. I would rather do something simplified like this rather than try to model the rather complicated feudal Japanese calandar. However, I am always open to other ideas.

Idea The "merchant's stall" can be set up as a quest that never ends. You pay the buy-in to the za, which places your NPC shopkeeper in the stall. Then, speaking to him starts the quest, which periodically adds money to your stash.

More later... Cool

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Ryuta    
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:46 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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C's post said it would be possible to make items that can boost a certain skill. So. it can be used to make a pack horse. It is a simple item with horse shape that increases Inventry Management +1 when it is in inventry slot. If we restrict this item to Merchants (or only obtainable from merchant quests), the merchant class will definitely attract more attention from the player.

Is it possible?
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:24 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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That is indeed what I meant Fuji.

The calendar stuff sounds good, and in fact I just started a calendar type file, to place various events and economy cycles, starting with July 1 Smile In fact, lets just round it to 360 years, tehre's really no disadvantage, since we're not keeping track of the caldendar date in-game.

Ryuta, I don't know for sure whether it's possible for an item to increase attributes/skills, that would be more of a question for Fuji, but if it is, that's an excellent example of an application for this. We could even have a cart/wagon item or horse-item that increases inv management greatly, that would be another goal for the merchant.

And yet another idea for the seasonal economy; buying prices for certain goods like building material could raise with events such as natural disasters or war damage which could occur at certain times throughout the calendar and eventually wear off. Also, Kyoto would have a higher buying rate for just about everything since both factions are storing up for combat.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:22 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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As I understand it, items cannot improve character attributes. We can through various dialogs and the setting of control objects, but items don't have that ability. I don't know if Armagan plans on adding something like this, since it looks an awful lot like magic (of course, many people have been clammering for this very thing). It would take a massive remodeling of the way items are handled.

Great. I'll start looking into setting up the menus for that. The rest should be fairly easy.

360 days per year it is (that makes the coding SO much easier!).

On the merchant quests, how do we want to handle how these are given out? Some of them, such as buying goods and reselling them as CE mapped out above is pretty straightforeward, but some of the others, such as the fixed shop, are za-related. Do we want to have a za representative for every good sold in the game, or just certain goods? Should we give the player the ability to buy into more than one shop (setting up a shop in every fixed market available could prove exceedingly lucrative)? I know that playing merchants can be fairly boring and all, but when it comes to raising and outiftting an army, cash is king. :D

Idea We could, through some quest, be bestowed with a "cart" or "wagon", not seen on the player's inventory screen but manifesting itself as much increased inventory capacity. This phantom item could not be lost or stolen.

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:44 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Well, if there is a function to detect if a certain item is in your inventory or equipped, and if there is a function to edit attributes or skills.... this means we can make items that change atr/skills, ne?

For the number of Za... lets see. Reading over the wiki entry again, it seems there were a few high-profile urban Za that had broken away from their sponsers and became independent. Then there were many local Za in the rural areas. Perhaps have the merchant's sotryline originate from within one of these, which would be cool, but otherwise, these rural Za can be ignored I think. The urban Za are the itneresting ones with all the politics going on, and the high profile ones, apparently including Oil and Salt. I think we can just pick a few (3-4 others) to focus the quests around and essentially ignore the rest (except, of course, in flavor dialogue).

For the questline, here are the ways we could do it that come to mind:

A) Merchant class has a quest line to join and gain respect within a Za of a certain tradegood set by us (say, oil or salt), with a detailed storyline that works into the main war storyline. Similar to the Bushi storyline, gaining a shop(s) would co-relate to gaining your own fief.

B) Similar to A, except the player is at the center of events and begins his own Za for a tradegood that isn't covered by one already, OR "takes over" a weaker existing Za.

C) There are Za for a number of tradegoods, and the player can choose which one to join, possibly multiple. "Ranks" can be gained within each, as a character gains shops and rights within the Za. Less focus on storyline and detail, more focus on player choice and economy/guild simulation.

D) The player is a sort of go-between, profitting from the interactions of each Za and the war itself. Also story-driven, and possibly could be an option offered in tandem with A/B.

E) A complicated hybrid of A and C, with a storyline taht could work for any tradegood, and applying it to the player's choice of Za.


For obtaining a shop, given that the Za doesn't provide it for you for some deed or something, here's how it could work:

After gaining a significant amount of money as a travelling merchant, you decide you want to purchase a storefront in a certain town. You talk to someone in charge of that, located int he merchant's quarter, and you can rent the storefront on a weekly basis. You must do the selling yourself, so the way it could end up working is exactly like the original travelling merchant script, just with a faster selling rate (or proportional to the population of the town) and perhaps higher profit. You have to be in town for it to work. Later, you could hire workers, which add wages to the weekly rent, but you don't have to be present for your store to be run. But this is wher ewe run into the problem of exactly what is sold, and how the scripting for that works. With you present, it would pull items from your inventory as usual, but when you're not there....

The alternative (or perhaps additional) way to do it would be to simplify it by "owning" a shop that just gives you profit weekly, and you don't bother with running it or supplying it at all. This would be the way to do it if we want the Za to reward the player with ownership of the shop.


Though I just realized an interesting way to do this. When you have access to your own shop, it's a physical area you can visit, with a number of "customer" npcs proportional to the size/population of the town your shop is in. These customers have nothing to sell, they only buy from you, and thier money is replenished every so often. Hmmm...
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Ryuta    
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:41 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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So, if we choose to go for plan C, would faction number exceeds the max? We can only have 8 factions, can't we? I really like the idea of multiple Za, though.

I'd go for plan D with some element of A.

edit: In Winter's Storymod, you can do a kind of assassination. He used Pathfinding skill to decide to where the character can sneak in. He said in his thread that Pathfinding 1 can make you sneak into Khergit Camp, Pathfinding 3 into The captains Tent.

We can use similar method for assassination quest for Ninja.
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:23 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Actually I believe max factions is 32, read somewhere on official boards.

Oh, wow, so we can do skill checks already? That's great.

Yeah, for Shinobi we can do Pathfiding, Spotting, Tracking, Tactics, Athletics checks for various quests (or various stages of quests, for example, Pathfinding to sneak into an encampment, Tactics to sneak up to a building, Athletics to climb up and infiltrate the building, and Spotting to find information)

For Bushi, there could be quests needing Tactics and Leadership.

Kuge would use a base Charisma check, Leadership, and Maybe we can refer to Trade as a general Negotiation type skill.

Merchants would use Trade of course, base charisma, perhaps inventory management.

Kengo: Trainer, Weapon Master (perhaps he could do performances in towns for money, proportional to weapon master or power strike)

etc. etc.

Actually, quests that require skill checks might better be used for quests that aren't restricted to the player's class. Since the class quest lines are obviously centered around the skills that player would train, these quests would be rewards for deviating from the usual skills.

Also, we could actually use the Shield skill to refer to a new skill we want to add since it will never be used for it's original purpose.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:59 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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OK, after IMing AncientWanker, it is indeed possible, using the "player_has_item_equipped" operation, to add 'special abilities'. This opens things up a lot. :)

Yes, we can do skill checks, but not attribute (str, agi, int, chr) checks, yet. I think that'll be in the next version.

The travelling merchant code was MUCH easier than I thought. The menu is set up thusly: do a check to see if the player has a certain item with a minimum quantity (right now set at 3) in inventory. If so, a menu option is generated to allow the player to sell that item. A random number of this item is then sold at a given price (1.5 times the base item value). Trade skill modifies (positively) both number of items sold and the markup. The sales are calculated and given, plus a small xp point bonus. This menu is access by speaking with a 'properly authorized person' (village headman, temple head priest, etc) and paying a 5 mon fee, basically buying the right to set up your stall. The only drawback with this is that a menu option will have to be set up for EVERY saleable item of itp_type_goods. Fortunately, it doesn't butt heads with the supply_armor and supply_equipment quests; it simply doesn't check for those. The nice thing about this is that most of this is in a script, and you just call the script for each item. Saves a lot of space (and file size).

The harvest code was even easier, plus I made a wonderful discovery: modeling a real calendar is now in the code. Observe:

Quote:
(0.0, 0, ti_once, [], [(assign,"$day",1), (assign,"$month",7), (assign,"$year",1)]),

(0.0, 24, 0, [(lt, "$day", 31)], [(val_add,"$day",1)]),
(0.0, 0, 0.0, [(eq,"$day",31),(lt,"$month",13)], [(val_add,"$month",1), (assign,"$day",1)]),
(0.0, 0, 0.0, [(eq,"$month",13)], [(val_add,"$year",1), (assign,"$month",1)]),


The harvest triggers are then based off the calendar, instead of trying to count days. PLUS, WE CAN MAKE ANY OTHER QUEST IN THE GAME TIME DEPENDENT ON THE ORDER OF WEEKS OR MONTHS OR YEARS!!!! My jaw about hit the floor when I figured this out...

As far as merchant quests go, as much as I would loooove as complicated a storyline as possible, we do at some point have to finish this thing Laughing I would go for something similar to what Ryuta suggested: a combination of D and A. Fixed shops should be a reward/buy-in for completing a task for a za, and they should run pretty autonomously, generating x amount of profit (with different za shops generating different amounts). Za-related quests (esp. the oil and salt za) could involve shipping goods, acting as a courier to daimyo or shogun reps, and clearing/guarding trade routes of bandits (this could be assigned over and over again, allowing the merchant player some combat action. Trade routes could be marked by an invisible party, like the spawn points). Za that we can interact with should be limited to 4 or 5, given the limit on factions (I'm really hoping that limit goes up, to at least 128). My suggestions would be oil, salt, silk, iron, and/or tea. I like the idea of ranks, which would necessarily be separate from fame, since services performed for one za may be of little consequence to another. Certain quests (esp. the clearing trade routes quest) can and should affect fame, since more than just the za use the trade routes.

Whew...comments?

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Ryuta    
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:40 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I agree with Fujiwara's plan. Also C's plan for skill-related quest is very nice. Yes, I agree that skill-check should be mainly for the common quest.

I have forgotten this was discussed before, that we use skill check to upgrade the quests. Say, if you're Kengo, Weaponmaster 1-2 gives you petty job, like scare off a local ruffians, and when the skill went high, you'll get some really huge quests, like defending a village from bandits (or some faction troops), or other factions want your sword for some irregular job (e.g. Jodo-shu want you to clearing up the Tendai monks in a region).

Also it is nice to add a Za for slave trading. I'm not sure if there's a Za for human trading, though. however, I'm sure there're slaves up to Edo period.

edit: I asked Winter about the skill check and this is his reply.

The skill checks are fairly easy to do. Here is the condition code I have for sneaking into the Khergit camp:

[(store_skill_level,reg(1),skl_pathfinding,"trp_player"),(ge,reg(1),2)],

store_skill_level is the important operation. Basically, this menu option only appears if the player has 2 or more Pathfinding skill. If you wanted to make it possible to fail this particular check, you'd just make another line with (lt,reg(1),2), which would only show up if the player has less than 2 Pathfinding skill. This option could then lead to a new menu or other such thing where you describe and execute the consequences of failure.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:23 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Two things:

One, I finally worked out how to get the prices to change dynamically. I was right in my previous method, but neglected to add a conditional to check if the flag was OFF. So, the game changed the prices, then went back again. Silly me...:)

Two, I hacked together a working version over the weekend. There's not much in it. Hyogo is mostly populated, esp. with all the important stuff (merchants, inn, slave trader), but the rest of the towns are just menus with one option: Leave. There is some bandit spawning, along with police patrols from the neutral towns. The combat looks good, given that we have no new meshes yet, and the troops behave as they should, with ashigaru charging off with their yari and the samurai holding back and firing arrows.

I really would like to get away from menu-based towns. Putting this hack together soidified that for me. If we had one scene for villages, one for towns, and one for cities, that would be fine. But interacting with the city folk is part of the fun for me in games like this.

Here are some screen caps and the module if you want to try it out. Just unpack the whole thing in the Modules Folder.

- Fujiwara

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:34 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Fanfreakingtastic! This gets me very excited.

Few notes in no particular order, before I forget them:

- Lots of errors looking for something in D:/armagan/creatures/somethingsomething, but always works if ignored.

- Otherwise, only bug I've noticed so far, talking to rescued prisoners after they were rescued by me, they said one of the lines that you say when challenging a party, like "you will suffer greatly" and gave me no option to say bye or proceed.

- For testing, as well as a feature in the game, we REALLY need an option to spend multiple nights at an inn, say, options for "until morning/evening", a week, and even a month. Also, something i've always hated about OMB, is after staying at the inn, you should appear in the inn, where you were (if possible), instead of outside, having to walk all the way back in to stay another night. I wanted to see the other season messages but that would take forever >_< It will still take a long time for it to go by, but it's much better than nothing.

- Police seem to stray very far from their original towns. Let's experiment with the different AI behaviors and see if we can restrict their movement. Should be renamed also... to what, i'm not sure.

- Can we make the starting year (appear as) 1467? And what about month names, do we want to use them, and is it possible?

- In your first screenshot, you have Hosokawa units... is that from a newer build/cheats, or is there something in this version I missed?

- Minor point, but I hadn't heard Tono before, I think I'd rather use Dono, as more people would recognize it (imo). Also, it would be cool if everyone referred to each class differently, Samurai as (name)-sama, and in higher ranks use Dono, and (name)-san for non-samurai, unless the character has high fame. Disciples could refer to the player (Kengo) as Sensei Smile Is there a honorific or title for buddhist monks?

- more to come later
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Ryuta    
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:50 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I like the idea of putting honourifics. Though, it'll be very complicated if we try to did exactly in that age. So, I'll make it very simple.

By the way, Samurai and Kuge has three names; Sirname, Calling name and Real name. For example, Hosokawa Katsumoto was actually Hosokawa Ukyo-no-Dayu Katsumoto. Since the Calling name changes rapidly, people are customally described only with Sirname and Realname. Also, it is rather rude to call someone with his Real name. So, you can't call Katsumoto 'Katsumoto Dono'. But instead, 'Ukyo-no-Dayu Dono', or 'Kyocho Dono (Kyocho is the another name for Ukyo-no-Dayu)'

Dono, Tono are diffrent pronounciation of the same Chinese Character. However, Tono came relatively later (late Sengoku?) and the meaning is slightly different, it is to adress your lord, and always used alone. They were used to refer anyone with respect, or politeness (if you're adressing a guy who is in the equal rank). For example, letter usually finished with brah-brah Dono. If the letter was send to lower rank people, it could be as simple as Tonoe, or Donoe (In old Japanese, both are written in the same Japanese alphabets). So we could use it in Samurai's general speech.
When Samurai adress to commoner, he simply call him without any tags (e.g. 'Oi, Minoya!', or more simply 'This one!'). Ronin is the same (He's not technically Samurai, but he's a kind of Samurai).

For more higer ranking people (not only for Samurai, but Kuge as well), things are more complicated. They had to adress with their title. Also some people were refered by his residence (Ashikaga Yoshimi was called 'Imadegawa Dono'. He lived in Imadegawa and Shogun Yoshimasa was 'Muromachi dono'). But I think it's too much to code.

To adress your lord, you can use 'Oyakata' or 'Oyakata sama', instead of calling his name. So, you can say either 'Ukyo-no-Dayu Dono!' and 'Oyakata sama!', if you're his retainer. By the way, Oyakata means 'Residence', your lord is the one who represents the clan.

To adress a shogun, 'Ue-sama' or 'Gosho-sama' 'Kubou Sama' were used instead of calling him with name (I think 'Kubou Sama' is better). To his wife, 'Midaidokoro sama' 'Kitanokata sama' 'Kitano mandokoro sama'. Midaidokoro sama is the best, I think.

Sama and San are again came from the same word. 'San' came much later than Sama (in fact, it is a corrupeted form of 'Sama') and did not used in that era. it is usually used when you adress people who is higher rank than you (and make the sentense polite). It is good for commoners' conversation.

For monks are slightly difficult to put. It is usually 'Dono', or 'Sama'. But 'Gobo' instead of name was used. More complicating thing was, a lord who became a monk but yet still actively involved in ordinary world, instead of retreating to Temples were called 'Nyudo'. Good example of this age was Yamana Mochitoyo, who was Yamana Sozen-nyudo Mochitoyo. Sozen is his name as a monk, plus 'nyudo' You can call him as 'Sozen Nyudo-dono', or 'Nyudo-dono'.
Head Priest of Tendai (and Shingon) sects have special honour; 'Zasu'. when people adress him it is always 'Zasu sama'.

Emperor has so many different calling names; 'Okami' 'Tenshi (Sama)' were the most popular. Retired Emperor (Gohanazono Joko in that time) was called 'Sento (Sama)'
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:07 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Ah, nice guide Rytuta Smile

More comments:

- Ah, figured out the samurai party thing. Looking at the troops' stats, the stats seem a little strange, the ashigaru were higher level than the samurai, and both had skills that didn't quite make sense to me (Higher INT than str or agi), high weapon skills in every type, high leadership, inventory management, etc.... I assume you just copied from an existing troop?

- Is Hime correct when referring to any female samurai?

- Haha, nice gossip from the innkeeper. But the tab seems messed up... it only goes up by one every 2 or 3 drinks, and did you mean for the drinks to be successivly more expensive?

- Hmm, it would be nice if Hosokawa/Yamana samurai troops and the neutral samurai that are upgraded from ronin (of the same type, swordsman, yumi, etc.) would stack in the same party slot. Not sure how to handle that.

- Choosing shinobi or ronin seem to always give that white screen of death, and sometimes the other classes too, and sometimes theres just 4-6 errors, then it goes into the game after each is ignored.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:08 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Curiousepic wrote:
Fanfreakingtastic! This gets me very excited.

Few notes in no particular order, before I forget them:

- Lots of errors looking for something in D:/armagan/creatures/somethingsomething, but always works if ignored.
Like I said, it's buggy as hell right now :lol:

Quote:
- Otherwise, only bug I've noticed so far, talking to rescued prisoners after they were rescued by me, they said one of the lines that you say when challenging a party, like "you will suffer greatly" and gave me no option to say bye or proceed.
I haven't gotten that far on the dialogs, since I'm basically moving all the code we've come up with piece by piece from a vanilla module system. I hadn't yet played it so much to see rescued prisoners Smile Glad you like it that much. I'll add this to my list of things to fix.

Quote:
- For testing, as well as a feature in the game, we REALLY need an option to spend multiple nights at an inn, say, options for "until morning/evening", a week, and even a month. Also, something i've always hated about OMB, is after staying at the inn, you should appear in the inn, where you were (if possible), instead of outside, having to walk all the way back in to stay another night. I wanted to see the other season messages but that would take forever >_< It will still take a long time for it to go by, but it's much better than nothing.
Agreed, and it won't be hard to add.

Quote:
- Police seem to stray very far from their original towns. Let's experiment with the different AI behaviors and see if we can restrict their movement. Should be renamed also... to what, i'm not sure.
Since I only know of ai_bhvr_hold and ai_bhvr_travel_to_party, I'm not sure how to set the patrol radius. I've seen the ones you're talking about in one of the header files, but I'm still unsure how they work.

Quote:
- Can we make the starting year (appear as) 1467? And what about month names, do we want to use them, and is it possible?
Yes, and yes.

Quote:
- In your first screenshot, you have Hosokawa units... is that from a newer build/cheats, or is there something in this version I missed?
I have it set up so that the kuge class starts out with a small party of troops, since they are so lacking in combat ability.

Quote:
- Minor point, but I hadn't heard Tono before, I think I'd rather use Dono, as more people would recognize it (imo). Also, it would be cool if everyone referred to each class differently, Samurai as (name)-sama, and in higher ranks use Dono, and (name)-san for non-samurai, unless the character has high fame. Disciples could refer to the player (Kengo) as Sensei Smile Is there a honorific or title for buddhist monks?
Watch Ran (I love Kurosawa films). As Ryuta said, it's more Sengoku than Muromachi, but it sounded good at the time. I could set up a 'title' variable which points to some strings, which would make the title dynamic as things change in the game, which is much more true to the period. I portray a minor member of the Fujiwara clan during the 14th C in the SCA (hence the handle), so I have a good idea about how complicated titles can get, esp. for the kuge. This will certainly make things better. Good call!


Last edited by fujiwara on Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

Offline fujiwara

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2008, 10:23:46 PM »
fujiwara    
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:20 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Curiousepic wrote:
Ah, nice guide Rytuta Smile

More comments:

- Ah, figured out the samurai party thing. Looking at the troops' stats, the stats seem a little strange, the ashigaru were higher level than the samurai, and both had skills that didn't quite make sense to me (Higher INT than str or agi), high weapon skills in every type, high leadership, inventory management, etc.... I assume you just copied from an existing troop?
I just made some stuff up, basically. Laughing I noticed that too, when I played, but I figured it would get ironed out when we get to the fine-tuning stage. Right now, I'm more focused on getting it working.

Quote:
- Is Hime correct when referring to any female samurai?
'Hime' translates lit. as 'lady', so yes. Any woman of the bushi or kuge classes would be addressed as such. As for the rest, I'm unsure. Thoughts, Ryuta?

Quote:
- Haha, nice gossip from the innkeeper. But the tab seems messed up... it only goes up by one every 2 or 3 drinks, and did you mean for the drinks to be successivly more expensive?
Very Happy Thanks! It seems the tab only increments after you end the dialog with the innkeeper. I don't like it either, so I'll look closer at it. And yes, I did mean for them to get progessively more expensive. You don't give the cheap stuff to your good customers, do you? 8)

Quote:
- Hmm, it would be nice if Hosokawa/Yamana samurai troops and the neutral samurai that are upgraded from ronin (of the same type, swordsman, yumi, etc.) would stack in the same party slot. Not sure how to handle that.
Not possible. They are separate troops with separate (though equilvalent) upgrade paths. I considered just making one kind and then adjusting the party faction to make them neutral, hosokawa, or yamana, but then I realized that during battle they probably wouldn't fight each other since all the troop factions would be 'neutral'. We should probably experiment with this though.

Quote:
- Choosing shinobi or ronin seem to always give that white screen of death, and sometimes the other classes too, and sometimes theres just 4-6 errors, then it goes into the game after each is ignored.
I haven't yet tested those classes, but like I said earlier, it's buggy as hell.


Last edited by fujiwara on Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tao called Tao is not Tao

-Lao Tzu


General note: if you could get a screen cap of any assertion errors or other things gone wrong and post here, that would help in figuring out where they are. I did some code cleaning last night after I posted the module, esp. in the troops file, where I discovered gross errors in the skill assignments (I'm surprised they made it past the complier). Also...

CE, ask and ye shall receive.

I tested the merchant stall routine last night. It works like a charm! You talk to the headman, and a menu option specific to merchants (I'm considering changing this to anyone with a high enough trade score) pops up. You pay the man his money, leave town, and you are instantly transported to the main stall menu, with two options: open for business, and close the stall. Open leads you to a second menu where you are given options on which item type you want to sell. You click the option, 8 hours pass, you get some money, some xp, and the items are gone. It was beautiful. It needs some tweaking, since I tried to improve it and botched it instead Embarassed Evil or Very Mad but I'll try posting an update tomorrow.

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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:57 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Quick note I just realized, we should use the imperial year instead of 1467, and "First month, Second month, etc.", that will be slightly more authentic without being overly complex. and... from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_calendar :

Seasonal days

Some days have special names to mark the change in seasons. The 24 Sekki (????? Nijushi sekki) are days that divide a year in the Lunisolar calendar into twenty four equal sections. Zassetsu (??) is a collective term for the seasonal days other than the 24 Sekki. 72 Ko (???? Shichijuni ko) days are made from dividing the 24 Sekki of a year further by three. Some of these names are still used quite frequently in everyday life in Japan.
[edit]

24 Sekki

* 6 January: ?? (Shokan) a.k.a. ???? (Kan no iri)
* 20 January: ?? (Daikan)
* 4 February: ?? (Risshun) - Beginning of spring
* 19 February: ?? (Usui)
* 5 March: ?? (Keichitsu)
* 21 March: ?? (Shunbun) - Vernal equinox, middle of spring
* 5 April: ?? (Seimei)
* 20 April: ?? (Kokuu)
* May 6: ?? (Rikka) - Beginning of summer
* May 21: ?? (Shoman)
* 6 June: ?? (Boshu)
* 21 June: ?? (Geshi) - Summer solstice, middle of summer
* 7 July: ?? (Shosho)
* 23 July: ?? (Taisho)
* 7 August: ?? (Risshu) - Beginning of autumn
* 23 August: ?? (Shosho)
* 8 September: ?? (Hakuro)
* 23 September: ?? (Shubun) - Autumnal equinox, middle of autumn
* 8 October: ?? (Kanro)
* 23 October: ?? (Soko)
* 7 November: ?? (Ritto) - Beginning of winter
* 22 November: ?? (Shosetsu)
* 7 December: ?? (Taisetsu)
* 22 December: ?? (Toji) - Winter solstice, middle of winter


We can use these to plan when exactly the seasons begin.

Also, in the final version, it would be nice to have the "what day is it" dialogue option with any npc follower, for easy access.


Another good site for the calendar, seasons, events, etc. http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/calendar.htm

I think it would be cool, when a new season begins, to have a short "cutscene" (just a dialogue with yourself) with a little message or haiku that describes the changes taking place. Perhaps if you have a Poet Kuge/monk npc follower, he'd compose a short poem about it.
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Ryuta    
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:03 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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It's nice to have months' names though I'm not sure about putting Sekki (they make very nice addition, I admit)...

For Hime, direct translation of the word is 'Princess'. Can be 'Lady' as fujiwara said. Though, it is strictly for unmarried, or girls (before became and adult). For example, Tomoko-Hime. If you are calling her, Hime-sama. But, you can still call her with 'Dono'.

Also, if you see the C's Sekki, you can see the season and the Sekki and Months are slightly different from the actual season (August is the hottest season but it's already Autumn. Minazuki, Waterless month (in the site is was translated as Watring month) falls in June, the rain season). the reasons are:

1. Traditional Months were actually one month, or even more, earlier than Western counter part. Minazuki, Japanese June, actually falls around July-August. Setsubun, today it falls around 4th February, is Old New Year's Eve.
2. Japanese defined the (Calendar) season as three months period, not by climate. So, January-March is Spring, April-June is Summer, July-September is Autumn and October-December is Winter. So, it is very confusing. It was supposed to be govern by Astrology Department in the Imperial Court but they failed miserably.

So, Sekki is a kind of unusuall to keep Calendar but it is more accurate to describe seasonal change. Months are easier to keep tracking of time but inaccurate to describe seasons.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:18 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I didn't mean to derail everything with the working version Cool It seems we've got the merchant quests pretty much sewn up. I had an idea for the "clear_trade_routes" quest. We'll need waypoints for the bandits to spawn around, and I thought, 'Hey, these can be used by the travelling merchants also.' What I was thinking was:

1) 'Caravans' from a specific town only go to the next nearest town/city, rather than any random faction town.
2) 'Farm-to-market' parties only go from the village to the nearest town/city. This sets up the web we were hoping for.
3) To get the parties to each destination will require some finagling, since getting across those land bridges won't be easy for the AI. Hence, the waypoints.

Exclamation Trading with the merchant parties WHILE IN TRANSIT

We need to get on the other class quests. Again ,sorry for the interruption. Laughing

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fujiwara    
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:36 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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On month and special day names: this is certainly possible. Just about anything can be done with strings...

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Ryuta    
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:16 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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We should definitely include season-related quests, too.

Escorting a person to various spots. Mt Yoshino in spring, Mt Arashi in Autumn etc.

Also Shogun (Yoshimasa) loved Saiho-ji Temple's garden (in Kyoto) and visited there many imes so we can use it to make a quest.

And, This is important events held in the Imperial Court. The dates are all Traditional Calendar. Just incase we could make some nice quest for aristocrats, or merchants.

Kochohai (Jan, 1st)
Aristocrats who was over the 6th rank were shown to the Emperor.

Aouma-no-Sechie (Jan. 7th)
White horses(21 each) from Right and Left Stable are shown to the Emperor.

Azuki-Gayu (Jan 15th)
Eat rice-porrige with Azuki (a kind of bean) to prevent desease. It is believed that if a woman was slapped at her bottom by the sticks that was used to make porrige, her baby will be a boy.

Nehan'e (Feb, 15th)
the day that the Bhudda was said to have died. Enchant Sutras.

Joshi-no-Sekku (First day of Snake, March)
Also called Momo-no-Sekku (Peach ceremony). Spend the time nearby water to prevent misfortune. For ordinary people, it is a holiday.

Aoi-matsuri (the day of Cock, in the middle of April)
Kamo Shrine's Festival. Saioh (female priest and the Emperor's daughter) and Chokushi (Emperor's messenger) went ther on the behalf of the Emperor.

Kanbutsu-e (April, 8th)
Birthday of Bhudda. Place his statue in a building sorrounded by flowers and pour 5 types of perfumed water on it.

Tango-no-Sekku (First day of Cow, May)
Also Shobu-no-Sekku (Ceremony of Iris). Horse archery competitions were held in 5th (at Left Imperial Guards) and 6th (Right Imperial Guards). Also horseracing was held.

Gion-Matsuri (Mid June)
festival of Kitano Tenmangu Shrine, Kyoto.

O-Harae (the last day of June, New year's eve)
Every officer in Imerial Court was purified at Suzaku-mon Gate (the south gate). June's ceremony was called Minazuki-Barae.

Urabon'e (July, 15th)
The day to welcome the ancestors' spirit. It is believed that the Gate of Hell opened this day.

Sumai-no-Sechie (Late July)
Sumo. 17 pairs of wrestler are chosen to compete in front of the Emperor. There was a record of death in ancient time.

Choyo-no-Sekku (Sep, 9th)
Also Kiku-no-Sekku (Ceremony of Crysanthemum). Poetry competition was held for the Emperor. People drank Crysanthemum Wine. Ordinary people cooked bioled millet.

Gencho (First day of Boar, Oct)
Eat Dumplings to pervent misfortune.

Gosechi (Middle days of Cow - Dragon, Nov)
Very important ceremony in Imperial Court.
Day of Cow; Chodai-no-Kokoromi (reharsal for tomorrow, at Joneiden)
Day of Tiger; Gozen-no-kokoromi (Dance was given to the Emperor. four dancers were all doughters of aritocrats)
Day of Hare; Niinamesai, or Daijosai
Day of Dragon; Toyoakari-no-Sechie (The emperor eats grains harvested in this year)

Niinamesai
The emperor ate the year's grains with gods. If this was the first time for the Emperor, it was called Daijosai.

Tsuina (New year's eve)
Also Oni Yarai (Demon chasing). Hohsohshi, or Taina (played by the head of O-toneri) and Shona ( played by boys) chased a demon played by an aristocrat. others shot arrows made of reed.

edit: There're list of some cosmetics.

Whites
Oshiroi (grain); powered grains (mostly rice).
Hafuni: Lead White. Poisonous.
Gofun: Originally an alternative name for Hafuni. Burnt and powered sea shells.
Haraya: From Ise. Mercury White. the most expensive and perhaps the most poisonous.

Beni: Rouge. extracted from a yellow flower. used to colour lips, cheeks and nails. It is said to have the same value as silver.

Fushi: Used to dye teeth black. made from a lump of Japanese Lacquer.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:36 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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test

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fujiwara    
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:57 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Ryuta: I like the ideas for the seasonal quests, esp. at they relate to the kuge.

What about monk/nuns?

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Ryuta    
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:49 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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There're some ceremonies but I'm not sure what. I'll look around to see if there're some interesting ceremony.
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:08 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Finally, after some confusion, I can post again.

Shinobi gameplay/questline ideas!

- At this point in time, the idea of Shinobi is still new and very loose. What they are doing does not seem unusual to them, they are simply using their cunning to gain information and advantage over their enemy.
- Player is a charismatic Ji-samurai farmer from the Koga clan in Omi.
- Both Yamana and Hosokawa had generals either from Omi or have troops from Omi under their control. Player could start in Omi, find the general of the faction they wish to assist (not technically join), and begin their faction-specific quest line from there, going on stealth-related missions for that general, and eventually for the daimyo. Then, the player can find quests and advanced skills or weapons, etc. from the clans in Iga.
- Fame works against the Shinobi; as long as you're unknown, you're under the radar and can travel unrestricted. The higher your fame rises, the better the chance someone will recognize you and your past deeds, put 2 and 2 together and begin suspecting you. Having combat troops in your party negates this.
- Player leads a band/troupe of Noh actors/musicians as his front. Some actors could be other Shinobi NPC Followers, others simply useless in combat. A number of Noh masks become available to use.
- Quest to perform a play that acts as a political allegory to give someone attending a secret message.



Battle for Shokakuji Temple Ideas!:

- Occurs for all players allied with Hosokawa or Yamana, at a set date during the timeline. A messenger appears asking for your presence in Kyoto to prepare for an attack, and if you don't comply and arrive within two days, you're kicked out of the clan.
- Hosokawa defends, Yamana attacks
- Begins with Yamana flowing into the Temple grounds (spawning at gate) and attacking the Hosokawa defenders in front of the Temple.
- Yamana keep respawning until a certain amount of Hosokawa have been killed.
- A cutscene of the Hosokawa leader (unkillable) yelling to fall back into the temple occurs. If you don't have a katana, the leader tosses one to you.
- Loads a hallway area, with more Yamana pouring in, barely enough room for 2 people to stand side by side. When you are eventually forced down the hallway you can enter the door.
- Loads a larger interior, with Yamana pouring in from multiple hallways.
- Your Lord is set to killable, and eventually dies here. You can leave through another doorway, which takes you to an exterior from which you can escape the scene.
- Soon a messenger comes to you and asks for your presence at a location the daimyo has retreated to.
- There, he rewards your efforts with your lord's position/rank and holdings.



Some brief general ideas from the past few days:

Ambushes - When some trigger fires (moving into a location on the world map, or some other action), it spawns a hostile ambusher party near the player's party.

Splitting parties - Dialogue option when talking to a troop type to make them a seperate party instead of them disappearing when you disband.

Controllable npc parties - (Similar to Last Days) Parties that are controllable by talking to them. Orders could be: camp (stay) here, travel to the nearest town, follow player, attack nearest hostile party, travel to (one of a number of preset locations).

Assassins and true death - during normal play, the player and heroes are unkillable. At the beginning of a game you can set an option for easy/hard mode that governs true death for heroes and the player. Hard mode will allow player and hero death, but true death won't come unless you are actively hunted for one reason or another. Higher fame will the enemy faction to send war parties out to defeat and kill you specifically. If you are defeated in the battle, the game is effectively over. They will also kill your heroes. In addition, whenever you have a small party (less than 10 men), assassins (shinobi stats, but not labelled shinobi, perhaps appears as friendly at first) will spawn near you every now and then. These might also be sent from other factions or organizations depending on your class and fame and quest status, like rival Za in the case of a merchant.

Terrain Texture Replacements - Plains becomes lowlands (slightly lighter), desert becomes highlands (darker, rocky), mountain, snow made more realistic.



Also, I've begun yet another iteration of the map, this time using a heightmap that I'm tracing directly from the topographic map I found, which promises to create a extremely detailed and realistic representation, that we can then adjust for gameplay. The both the size and density are quite high, so it may be choppy on some computers, in which case I can make another low-detail version. At 10.0 speed it takes about 32 hours (1.25 days) to cross as the crow flies.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:38 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Welcome back CuriousEpic!

A word about in-town fighting: I have tested combat in towns of various sizes and with varying number of buildings, and all have caused my FPS to tank (<2 FPS in all cases). In speaking with Winter from the M&B board, he too has experienced this problem, and says it has something to do with the game engine and how the AI allocates resources (See the Siege! thread under Mod discussion). This is very disappointing to me. I was hoping for a lot of cool town fighting. Sad

Something occured to me regarding the kuge quests. Access to the imperial court was restricted to those of 6th Rank or above, with the 6th Rank really being the palace guards. Several of the quests mentioned by Ryuta was almost certainly require court access. Do we want to implement some version of the Japanese court rank system? I would cap it at 4th Rank, as anything higher is really high nobility, and all those families are well documented.

I like all ideas, esp. the temple battle. Again, I direct you to the above. Indoor fighting wouldn't be too difficult, as we already have that as the Arena and training room. I have a pretty good idea of how to set up a special mission template to handle it, too. I noticed Fisheye has put together a Python script to generate a matching collision mesh for OBJ files. Any chance of some buildings soon? Smile

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Ryuta    
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:53 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I like the idea of Shokokuji-Temple battles. As far as I know, it's for Hosokawa clansmen. Do you have any ideas for Yamana clan?

Shinobi clan idea was very simple and better than original Iga/Koga idea. So how to get stealth work? Using skill check?

Yes, You have to be a certain rank and the permission to go into the Imperial (Inner) Court, where the Emperor took his office, or playing. But you can go into Imperial (Outer) Court where various offices were lacated. so, the first could be just receiving orders from his superior. Then ranked up to 6th. Or you are already 6th but, with some reason, didn't get the permission to go into the Inner Court. the first one seems Ok to me.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:42 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Ryuta wrote:
I like the idea of Shokokuji-Temple battles. As far as I know, it's for Hosokawa clansmen. Do you have any ideas for Yamana clan?
As I believe CE laid it out, a player of either faction would be involved, either on the offense (Yamana) or defense (Hosokawa).

Quote:
Shinobi clan idea was very simple and better than original Iga/Koga idea. So how to get stealth work? Using skill check?

Yes; very simple to do. We would need to come up with the situtions where we would need to do the skill check. Since there isn't a 'stealth' skill, I would go for a combination of spotting and pathfinding.

Quote:
Yes, You have to be a certain rank and the permission to go into the Imperial (Inner) Court, where the Emperor took his office, or playing. But you can go into Imperial (Outer) Court where various offices were lacated. so, the first could be just receiving orders from his superior. Then ranked up to 6th. Or you are already 6th but, with some reason, didn't get the permission to go into the Inner Court. the first one seems Ok to me.

I would rather not start a player off at 6th Rank. That just feels wrong. Plus, it gives some additional playability by having to advance in the court.

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fujiwara    
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:43 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Man, this thread is getting long :)

I realize things have come to a grinding halt. Honestly, I'm waiting on CE's new map, so I'll know how towns there are, factions, etc, etc. Its amazing how much hinges on the map (all the NPCs, party spawning, and more). All the work is basically done, but I need the map to put it all together.

Also, this is my last semester as a grad student, which means papers, research, and job-hunting. I don't plan on dropping the coding work, but I may be posting somewhat infrequently.

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The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

Offline fujiwara

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 10:24:42 PM »
Curiousepic    
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:48 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Well, here's a peek Smile Just finished most of the work today. I traced about 6 different elevations, by hand, from the topo map.


Mt. Hiei overlooking Kyoto and Settsu


Most of the map, seen from above Tango


(Yes, it's upside down... so the camera initially faces north in-game)

Still not ready for implementation yet, have some various things to do still (lakes/rivers, mountain terrain placement, smoothing/optimization). Also I want to replace the desert terrain with a darker vegetation type texture more suitable to mountainous highlands... any of you guys that have worked with textures/.ddses wanna explain an easy way to do that?

Well, now that I think about it, I can put all the locations in, and then hand that version over to you; the other changes can still be made afterwards.

Now some responses:

No, no buildings soon... I think what I would like to do is make some sketches/plans for the areas, and if they're willing, have Thorn or one of our other modellers make the meshes, cuz that's something we should have in soon as well, I agree, and won't make it wait for my slow ass to learn to model better. (And will get my pencil back on paper, something that's been waiting to happen for a couple years now.) Though I'm confused about what you say concerning in-door fights... is it definitely not going to work for custom meshes?

Yes, I was writing the Shokakuji temple outline from the perspective of the Hosokawa, but the event will be similar for the Yamana's.

Concerning stealth... we could possibly set up a meta-skill, a variable in the code somewhere that's checked just as a regular skill would be, but could be raised with training, conditional experience, etc. Same goes for any new skill we'd like to add, such as diplomacy/negotiation, but I'm not sure we should get this complicated.


And now some (inevitable) new ideas:

Fatigue - The player and heroes can ride forever if need be, their souls of heroic constitution. Regular troops, however, are replaced with "Tired" and then "Exhausted" versions if you don't rest at a town or camp every so often. (an old idea, but no ones mentioned it yet)

Concealment - a Shinobi specific ability that somehow reduces the "spotting" skill of all other parties by a certain amount, determined by INT and the size of your party.

Bodyguarding - Ronin can hire themselves out as yojimbo to a lord or anyone willing to pay, and it goes into a mode similar to the emrchant's shop mode, but with occasional fights or quests (escort, etc.)

Medicinal Herbs - a food item with a small quantity (1-5) that when eaten, either restores health of the player and heroes more quickly, gives a temporary boost to maximum health, (or if there is a wound system, cures wounds)


Wound System - Haven't checked this out in Final Days, but it sounds interesting if we'd like to include something similar.

Ronin QUestline - Could focus on being the Yojimbo for an influential person (perhaps a gambler, yakuza-prototype), scripted indoor fights (against a small number of powerful opponents), odd jobs

Controllable Captains - units with a leader that you can command and give troops to, obtainable with higher rank. if they are defeated or something important occurs with them, they send a messenger to tell you.


Fuji; Sorry/happy to hear that, but I understand since I just went through it. Hopefully you'll be able to settle down soon after.


Wow, man...that's gorgeous... Shocked Very Happy

I like the idea of troop fatigue, but I have this strange feeling to would be so difficult to implement that it wouldn't be worth it. Basically your would have to set up a trigger that determines what troops you have and how many, figure out how far you've travelled, fire the trigger, swap out all your troops, do all that again for the second level of fatigue, then, once you've slept, swap them all out AGAIN. Plus, it goes without saying that different troops have different constitutions (farmers are not going to have the stamina of an elite cavalryman). Then you've got to check for differing levels of fatigue, and assign fatigue based on that. You're talking about literally hundreds of lines of code. Shocked Shocked Shocked

More later...

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fujiwara    
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:06 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Latest build: v.0.1.6-b232

Create a bushi character with at least 1 pt of tracking skill and ride to Settsu village. Follow the little man! What fun!

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fujiwara    
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:07 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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woo hoo! I can post attachments again! Thanks Thorn!

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:46 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Time for another idea dump Smile Straight from my NewIdeas.txt file, these have been collecting for a few weeks. Here they are, unedited, since I don't really feel like sorting/elaborating/explaining them right now, but I want to get some of them out for planning ahead:

Combat Styles and Techniques - Scripted, chosen at the beginning of a duel (only) and influences player or weapon attributes - certain styles are better to counter other styles, challenge in identifying opponent's styles beforehand through clues (perhaps personality in dialogue is a good judge of what style they will use). Can gain experience in each style by studying at different dojos or under different sensei.

Kuge Diplomatic Negotiations - perhaps similar to combat styles

Drunken Fighter Hero - gains stats (or is otherwise useless) when sake is in this inventory.

Nobori: since nobori and sashimono are developed during sengoku and may not have been present at this time, we can still speculate and give large armies a troop type with an item thats a combination between sashimono and nobori, fitting on the back (or on a horse??), but larger than a sashimono. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hata-jirushi

Pasage of Time - Time consuming processes as well as quest events should require some time to pass (inn mode). Hiring troops should take an hour or so, for the troops to get ready and packed up to go. Drinking could be measured in hours spent drinking, instead of number of drinks. Kuge and shinobi quests might require you to spend a number of days at a location until an event happens or a clue arises. All of this should help to make time pass much more realistically, and calendar events not so disparate.

Titles - Seperate from class rank, which multiple classes can obtain (with work), and don't necessarily have a linear progression, and ential certain benefits, access, or restrictions.

Possible ranks and titles: Myoshu (wealthy and influential peasant farmer), Kerai (retainer), Kashin (Vassal retainer, owns land), Hikan (very low rank retainer of the shogun), Bugyo (Official/administrator), Bugyonin (low rank official), Jito (Manor Steward/governor), Shugo (provincial military governor of the Shogun), Bansho (Military Captain), Taisho (military general), Gokenin (houseman, vassal on par with Jito, but supposedly directly loyal to the shogun), Hokusho (truly direct vassal of the shogun), Kugyo (high rank kuge)

Familiarity - When you meet a major npc for the first time (Shugo, Generals, unique merchants, etc), you can choose to introduce yourself, which shows your faction affinity, give a false name, or not give a name at all (but this won't gain you much trust). When you initiate dialogue with them, their familarity flag is set at 1, they remember your face. If you introduce your true name, it's set to 2, they remember your name and faction. If your fame is high, its set to 3, they remember you and know of your deeds. Functions available from that npc will depend on their familarity, for example: You might choose not to identify yourself if you think they might sympathize with the opposing faction, in case they turn hostile; they won't trust you enough to give access to their facilities, but they may still give you some information. Bandits introducing themselves to anyone would be a bad idea. Shinobi may be able to give a false name, or their true name if their fame is low enough (the person will know their faction, but not that they are shinobi) If you become "wanted," a description is put out and there is a much more likely chance random people will identify you (likely for infamous bandits).

I had forgotten that there was such a thing as relations between factions - we should use this as a variable to refer to in dialogue when referring to the player and his deeds, as opposed to fame, fame instead will be more of a measure of how many people have heard of you, with your relation to the faction of whoever you're talking to as a bonus. Relations can also be referred to by kuge quests, with diplomatic negotiations having an effect on the player's relation to whatever faction (as well as the player's main faction), and when the player asks a favor of a faction, it will depend on the relation variable.

When staying at an inn for an extended period (more than til evening/morning), before it goes into time-elapse mode, you can pick from a number of options for how to spend your time during that period that varies between classes:

Bushi: Train/Study - earn a small amount of xp, depending on INT.

Kuge: Strengthen Relations - increase relations slightly with the dominant faction in the province you're spending time in, depending on CHA and/or INT.

Shinobi: Perform (with Noh troupe) - perform Noh plays, gain a small bit of xp, some money proportional to the size of the town, depending on CHA + CHA of troupe.
Also spies in free time, giving a chance that some info (quest objective or event that begins a quest) will surface, depending on INT

Merchant: Hire - chance that a Yojimbo will offer his services, depending on CHA

Monk/Nun: Write/Compose Poetry - Chance to create a masterpiece book/poem, depending on CHA. creates an item, which can be sold anywhere, but to a certain few people for much higher (to reproduce).

Ronin: Offer Services - chance to find someone willing to hire you as an escort/yojimbo, depending on level (no stat in particular, they all contribute).



Merchant Questline: A powerful band of Bandits threaten to take what is left of Kyoto, the area of the player's Za. must defend it yourself(hire ronin, etc.), since neither yamana or hosokawa will lift a finger to help, fearing that the other will come down upon them in the confusion.

Kengo Questline - find an excellent blade named Cloudcutter under strange circumstances, realize it's full potential requires the maker to add the handle, search for the maker from the signature on the blade.
Duels, can duel many Hero NPCs that can join the party of other classes.


Armies and Party Types: Garrisons at locations will represent the troops (mostly foot soldiers) stationed in and around that location. Standing armies will be a large party of cavalry and some footmen, that is usually stationed at a certain point and does not move (being camped - if its possible, when you approach a standing army of your own faction, you will be transported to a camp scene). These should be found along the borders between provinces owned by the opposing factions. Scouts will be very small (2-5) light cavalry that patrol the borders and within a province, and sometimes outside of the territory, but will usually run (and have speed enough to escape) from any threats, but will be strong enough to give small parties a challenge. Messenger parties (1 or 2 horsemen) can also be found relaying orders between parties and locations. Party Icons for armies affiliated with a faction could have proper flags.

The War: There should be no open warfare outside Kyoto until a certain plot point (perhaps the Battle of Shokakuji Temple). Then, Hostilities will begin elsewhere. Where Bandits are found, the armies will fight against them, when they can catch them.


Prisoners and Hostages: Regular armies shouldn't take prisoners, which achieved by not giving the troops blunt weapons. Bandits will have a fair amount of blunt weapons and take prisoners regularly (and perhaps they will be the only place you can sell prisoners). Perhaps there will be one minor clan that will enslave their enemies to do some work (mining?) for them. All important NPCs should be unkillable, but some encounters, if you succeed, will allow you to decide the fate of the enemy's leader, be it killing them personally and taking their head, or not doing so, causing them to live in dishonor (which might have consequences later, perhaps he makes you his personal enemy and will actively hunt you down), or taking them as a hostage, to be used as a negotiation tool (especially for female/old/young NPCs that have special value to your enemies).

Tactics: Instead having single war parties, we may be able to simulate actual tactics by splitting enemy parties into groups of similar troops. Ashigaru and archers march first, with a commander that has high tactics, so you have less of a chance of being able to retreat, and 1 or 2 fast cavalry units "following" the main party, to hit you after you're weakened by the first battle. If we can make commandable parties we may be able to make this possible for the player as well. We can also give the feeling of a really huge battle this way, without having way too many enemies in one scene.



Now for a big one:

Alternate Class/Questline System:

Starting classes are: Bushi (Hoso/Yama), Kuge (Hoso/Yama), Merchant, and Ronin. These are the most diverse among the original 8 classes, and are the most preclusive. (Merchants arent samurai, samurai becoming a merchant is unlikely, and Bushi/Kuge have very different fundamental upbringings)

Primary questline: picked by your class, Bushi/Kuge/Merchant. The story is closely related to the War, involves rank advancement, gaining land/income, etc. Ronin can enter any one of the main questlines after meeting some conditions, but will have to work to catch up.

Secondary questlines: These are the questlines of the other classes, but you can pick one of them to follow in tandem with your main questline. They are: Shinobi, Kengo, Monk/Nun, and Bandit. Each one can be chosen, upon meeting certain requirements, including attribute/skills, quests, fame, etc. Under some circumstances, some combinations will be difficult to achieve, if not impossible. Becoming a monk in particular will place you under some restrictions (otherwise you lose your monk privelages/access/support) and advancing in Kengo will require very high weapon skill. Becoming a bandit will break ties with any main factions you were previously a part of (except perhaps the merchant's), and you will probably have trouble getting trained as a monk/shinobi/kengo (Becoming a bandit might be looked at as an end-game option, after you've exhausted other possiblities and gained much skill and abilities). Following 1 or 2 secondary questlines is probably the most realistic (and perhaps should be restricted to this, to prevent the player from becoming TOO powerful).

Combination Chart: A= easy to achieve C= Difficult X= impossible x= lose main class status

Bushi:
Shinobi Kengo Monk Bandit
Shinobi A C C C
Kengo C A A C
Monk C A B X
Bandit Cx Cx X Ax


Kuge:
Shinobi Kengo Monk Bandit
Shinobi B C C C
Kengo C B C C
Monk C C A X
Bandit Cx Cx X Ax


Ronin:
Shinobi Kengo Monk Bandit
Shinobi B B C C
Kengo B B B C
Monk C B C X
Bandit C C X A


Merchant:
Shinobi Kengo Monk Bandit
Shinobi B C C C
Kengo C C C C
Monk C C B X
Bandit C C X A


Each secondary questline will allow the player to gain experience in attributes and skills that is supplementary to the existing experience system (allowing values otherwise impossible to achieve), though not so much as to be compeltely overpowering (Important NPC opponents will be very skilled as well).

The aim of this system is to make as much of the content available to the player as possible without forcing him to start a new character, as well as allowing some interesting pot tie-ins with the different combinations. It also extends a single character's "lifetime", giving the player more areas to advance.




Someone... please, stop me, or we'll never finish this mod :)

... Alternatively, give me a job designing games XD
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Ryuta    
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:37 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I'm not sure how to implement all of them but they're very good ideas, I think.

Nobori was no problem to add in game since they were using them for centuries (more like a long cloth hanging from a pole).

For combat skills idea, is it possible to directly raise Proficiency stats instead of EXP? If we set a limit to how far a Dojo can teach, it would be better. For example, Dojo A teaches One-handed weapon and Polearms. You choose one and then you fight some pupils just like combat training in vamilla game. When you finished, you'll get, say +30 proficiency. And this Dojo A cannot teach you beyond proficiency 150.
The same goes for duelling. If you managed to figure out the oponent's style, or skill, you'll get proficiency by killing oponent on top of EXP. For example, you're challenged by a certain Kengo, Kure. During conversation, you'll be given the hint of his skill (archery). Then, just before the battle starts, you're given the chance to guess his style from each Proficiency set (1-Hand, 2-Hand, Polearms, Archery, Throwing). If you choose Archery correctly, you'll be given +30 Archery proficiency when you successfully killed Kure plus 200 Exp. If you're unsuccessful to figure out his style, you'll get only 200exp when you killed him.

For Kuge, he can't go up to high ranking Kuge, but still have a chance to get a rank and title (some lower title).

Also, for fame/ reputation system, it's nice to add some individuals react differently from other people. Some might say, 'you've killed so many my men but I admire your valour', or 'you're saying you're Hosokawa's man? In the middle of my camp? Do you know how many of my men are here? I love your courage!'
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:11 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Yeah, gaining only bonus proficiency would be good. I'm wondering if proficiency can be gained through scripting if the weapon master skill isn't raised high enough to allow it normally?

I mostly meant the different styles (should call them schools/ryu instead) to be kenjutsu ryu for swords, but a few unique ryu might use other weapons too. And, with the duels, I didn't mean for you to match the opponent's style, but have a sort of rock-paper-scissors type system (with a lot more options), where if you choose a ryu that you know is effective against the ryu you think your opponent uses, you gain advantages, where otherwise you have normal or perhaps decreased stats. We can have some ryu that we know existed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshin_Shoden_Katori_Shinto-ryu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashima_Shinden_Jikishinkage-ryu
http://www.koryu.com/guide/kashimashin.html
http://www.koryu.com/guide/nen.html

And then make up the rest, some of which we can have a lot of fun with :)

Ryuta wrote:
Also, for fame/ reputation system, it's nice to add some individuals react differently from other people. Some might say, 'you've killed so many my men but I admire your valour', or 'you're saying you're Hosokawa's man? In the middle of my camp? Do you know how many of my men are here? I love your courage!'


That's awesome! This is exactly the kind of quality that should be prevelant in our dialogues.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:52 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Shocked Shocked Shocked OMG, Curious...are you trying to kill me? Smile These are good ideas, all, especially the new character class system. HOWEVER, you are right...if someone doesn't stop you, we won't finish this mod Laughing We really need to have some design freezes here. I like the dualing system, and (once the new mod tools are out and I can test the stability of the code) it shouldn't be hard to implement. The new character class system, however, would require MUCH more reworking. This is something I think will have to wait until v1.2 or 1.3. We need to finish this mod first. Very Happy

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Ryuta    
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:32 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I see. But isn't it very difficult to make Ryu work in this way? I've no idea how to implement in game.

Anyway, I've got some info about ancient Ryu. Before Sengoku period, there're several ancient ryu existed. They were called Kyo-Hachi-ryu and Kanto-Shichi-Ryu; Kyoto Eight Ryu and Kanto Seven Ryu.

Kyo-Hachi-ryu's eight ryu were said to be originated from eight disciples of Kiichi-Hogan in late Heian period. The characteristics were they stands squarely to opponent. They were, Kurama-ryu, Nen-ryu (not later Nen-ryu), Chujo-ryu, Yoshioka-ryu etc. Yoshioka ryu was the one Musashi fought.

Kanto-Shichi-Ryu's Seven Ryu were delived from Takemikazuchi-no-kami (Powerful-Thunder God in translation) who settled in Kanto region in Mythological era. His technique was preserved by seven families of Priests of Kashima and Katori shrine. This seven ryu was practically the origin of most Kenjyutsu in Japan. They tend to stand in half-stand (stand diagonary to the opponent).

Kenjutsu of that time was called Kaicha-Kenjyutsu. It was used with armour. They stood with their body lowered and aimed at the gaps of armour (eyes, neck, armpit, groin, inner thigh, wrist). They did not swing widely, but a kind of mixture of Slashing and thrusting (Tsuki-giki, in Japanese; meaning Thrust-cut).
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:14 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Well, let me ask you, do we want to implement the duels just in the dialogs, or include some kind of arena-type scene where you fight one-on-one? For the second type, I envision a series of dialogs where hints are dropped about the opponent's style. Successfully decoding these hints and choosing the proper defense gives a boost to stats, and vice versa. The answers to these hints are gained through training at different dojos, thereby simulating a student of many styles. We should limit the number of styles to eight at the most, to keep the coding simple. The other would have to be, by nature, be rather simple, where a random number modified by success (or lack thereof) in decoding the hints determines success.

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:38 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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fujiwara wrote:
I envision a series of dialogs where hints are dropped about the opponent's style. Successfully decoding these hints and choosing the proper defense gives a boost to stats, and vice versa. The answers to these hints are gained through training at different dojos, thereby simulating a student of many styles.


Precisely :)

When a duel occurs, we can transport them to a scene depending on the setting (tavern interior, town, countryside). It can be made very similar to the training script; in fact, we may want to assign the player a weapon according to his selected style instead of allowing him to choose from his equipped weapons, but being able to choose certain styles will depend on the wepaon's presence in his inventory. The assigned weapon could even have increased stats itself depending on the style (for example, Ryuta's mentioned Kaicha-Kenjutsu could give the player a sword with a highly increased thrust damage stat), and since the player can't open his inventory during the duel, he will never know the difference Smile. We could also have a style where the tanto/wakizashi is used in the off-hand, and acts as a shield item with a very low size/coverage (though I'm not exactly sure how this will work).

Through the dialogues and practice the player will go through at the various dojos he will become familiar with what works how, and all he has to do is remember them and know the counters.

Theoretically we could implement this for regular battles, but I don't think we really need to. Duels are meant to be special events between two people of great skill, whereas one could argue there is too much chaos and confusion in larger battles to use a single style effectively, so it works out well.


Another Idea just came to me. For Bushi, we could have a similar script to allow his troops to practice against themselves, simlar to the tournaments in OMB.
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Ryuta    
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:24 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Is it mean decoding the opponent's style and choose appropriate weapon gives you a stat boost?

I think it's much easier to do the other way around; they have stat boosts unless you decode the hint. That could simulate the situation that the character taking appropriate measure to counter the opponent's particular style. what do you think?
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:11 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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It could work both ways, but I think it's a lot more compelling to have varying stat bonuses to the player. This lets them see a noticeable difference in the different styles; if it only changed the opponents', it would be hard notice.

It also makes the player actaully change his play style, if the thrust was increased (and perhaps the other types of attacks decreased), and the player knows to mainly thrust, you actually feels like you're using the style, instead of just doing what you normally do.


Anyway, something I meant to say about the alternate class system... it requires work, but reworking? There's nothing in to rework besides deleting the existing non-main classes, right?. But yeah I meant to focus on the Bushi/Kuge/Merchant content first, which we were planning to do for the Alpha anyway, since we have the most work and ideas for them.

What do you think about the familiarity system Fuji? I've been working on a outline for the dialogue trees for each type of encounter, which I'll post soon. I'm also playing around with a different troop advancement tree.


Last edited by Curiousepic on Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:04 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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On familiarity: I like the idea a great deal, as long as we limit it to MAJOR NPCs. It could get out of hand fast if we let that list of NPCs get too long.

CuriousEpic wrote:
Anyway, something I meant to say about the alternate class system... it requires work, but reworking? There's nothing in to rework besides deleting the existing non-main classes, right?. But yeah I meant to focus on the Bushi/Kuge/Merchant content first, which we were planning to do for the Alpha anyway, since we have the most work and ideas for them.


I gave this some more thought after posting, and, for now, it seems less complicated than I first envisioned. How will we let player's know about the sub-classes? From the outset in the manual? Through dialog in towns, etc? If i understand correctly, this will entail mainly (in the end) boosts to sub-class specific abilities to match the subclass?

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The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

Offline fujiwara

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 10:25:48 PM »
Curiousepic    
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:31 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Haha...

armagan wrote:
One of the most powerful new features intrroduced in the new version is the abillity to attach pieces of data to game objects. The attachments are called "slots". You can put any number inside them. For example troop_set_slot and troop_get_slot commands let you attach and retrieve data to troop objects. Suppose you want to keep track of which NPCs the player has met with. Let's assume you decide that, say the seventh slot will hold "1" if player has spoken to an NPC and "0" otherwise (all slots are initially set to 0) . Then whenever we speak to an NPC you'll set the seventh slot with

Code:
(store_conversation_troop, reg(1)),
(troop_set_slot, reg(1), 7, 1),


Then whenever we want to check if we have talked with this NPC before, we may use:

Code:
(store_conversation_troop, reg(1)),
(troop_get_slot,reg(5),  reg(1), 7),
(eq, reg(5), 1),



fisheye wrote:
Now we can make troops move around obstacles in pre-planned paths.

You could probably make guards patrol a set course with this, too...


Janus wrote:
Here's something that's really cool which I've been looking forward to: you can now loop through troops on the battlefield in the mission templates and check various things about them, then set their AI script based on where they are and how close they are to certain points in the scene. Those are in the siege script in mission templates. So, a lot more stuff to play with in the mission templates to determine what's actually going on in the battle.


http://forums.taleworlds.net/viewtopic.php?t=8264&sid=ba839390cb3b2c7214ddbf61c57fac6e
:D

But yes, the sub-class would give the player certain script abilities, attribute/skill/proficieny bonuses, access to troop types, supplies, equipment, quests, etc. etc. They don't transform into the secondary class, they are the secondary class(es) in addition to the main class. And yeah, of course we'll mention the sub-class system in the features/readme/what have you, and have dialogue hints to find to be able to attain them.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:10 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Update: Work progesses on the port, nearing completion. Expect a build release within the next day or two. The power of these new tools is incredible...

EDIT: Hold that thought... You can no longer call menus from parties and party templates. This may take longer than I thought.

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These new slots, along with the ability to trigger menus on encounter with a party has given me an idea: based on the spotting abliity of the player, the player may be able to sneak up on an encounter party (either friend or foe). When a party spawns, a pseudo-spotting skill can be assigned, based on the composition of the template (higher level troops = higher skill). Then, when the player encounters a party, the two skills are compared, and one of three menu options are generated:

1) player skill > encounter skill: options to sneak up on encounter, engage openly, or leave without engaging
2) player skill <= encounter skill: options to engage or (if friendly) leave

Dialogs then are triggered from the menu. Thoughts?

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:57 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I'm not quite sure I understand this... are you saying this could happen even if an enemy party spots and catches you?

This also brings up a point I've been meaning to mention; I think the spotting disance is too high in M&B... not to mention the scale of our map makes it even less believable. Is there any way to reduce spotting less than the default? I've noticed this happens at night, so the functionality is there, the question is whether it's reachable by modding.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:09 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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As with all ability effects, this one is hardcoded. :?

Hmm...I hadn't considered that...I'll have to give this some thought

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Ryuta    
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:02 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Ok, I have researched about the ryu in that time.

Kyo-hachi (I found only four out of eight).

1. Kurama ryu

2. Nen ryu; founded by Nen'ami Jion (when he wasn't a monk, Soma Shiro Yoshimoto. 1351-?). Practiced Sword, Naginata and Spear.

3. Chujo ryu; Founded by Chujo Hyogo-no-suke Nagahide (?-1384) Practiced Sword, short sword(Kodachi), Spear.

4. Yoshioka ryu; at least practiced sword. famous for fighting Musashi. Also fought Musashi's adopted father, Shinmen Munisai (founder of Jitte-Tori ryu). The master always called him as Yoshioka Kenpo. His family was also dyer (according to a story, their dye strengthened the fabric, made it like a kind of armour).

5. Jitsuzan ryu; developed from Chujo-ryu in Muromachi era. Practiced sword, short sword, double-sword fighting.

Archery;

Ogasawara ryu; founded by Ogasawara Nagakiyo in Kamakura era and reached to the maturity in Muromachi era during the time of Ogasawara Sadamune and Ogasawara Tsuneoki. the oldest archery ryu in existence. This ryu practiced horseback archery and manner. Called 'Rei no Ogasawara (Ogasawara is Manner)'

Takeda ryu Kisha-Yabusame; Founded in Kamakura era by Takeda Taro Nobuyoshi. Horseback archery.

Heki ryu; Founded by (legendary) Heki Danjo Masatsugu in Muromachi era. Unlike other two, this ryu was foot archery. Characteristic kneeling stance was to hide from enemy by making the hight as low as possible. Also their 'slope' grip (hold the bow left side of the body, also tilt the bow to make it 'slope'), combined with 'Momiji-gasane (a style of girp of right hand)' increases the accuracy and power. Their ideal is 'First-penetration, second-accuracy, third-continuity'. Called 'Sha no Heki (Heki is Shooting)'
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fujiwara    
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:26 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Ryuta: Excellent! How do we want implement this in the game? Obviously, there will be some improvement to weapon proficiency, but do we want to award "special" weapons for completion of training? How will they be differentiated from each other, or will they just have additive effects, such that, once the kengo has trained at all 8 ryu, he'll be some uber-swordsman? Should there be a bonus for completing training at all 8 ryu? (I say yes!) We need to come up with some keywords that the dialogs hints will be based around (maybe based on the Chinese zodiac?), along with which ryu are in opposition to each other. Ryuta, did you come across any symbolism associated with these ryu that we could use for a basis for the keywords and oppositions?

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:16 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I think just giving the player better quality weapons isn't as compelling as the learned bonuses they'd have using the differents styles. Otherwise, the effect of learning them would just be a bonus to weapon skill. Of course there will be special weapons to obtain through quests (not sure I'vfe mentioned it but a cool idea for the kengo questline is discovering a excellent blade and tracking down the maker to restore it), gifts from your lord, etc. Also, when I say hints in dialogue, I didn't mean a true system as you suggest with the Zodiac, but something more subtle and natural... One ryu's style might teach ways to take advantage of an opponent's mistakes, which would work well against someone whose dialogue is obviously powerful, but cocky and likely to foul up (using this style correctly against him might reduce his attack speed or something similar). Anyhow, let's focus on the Alpha, this is Beta material Smile
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Ryuta    
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:44 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I was thinking, if it increases your proficiency, you can use skill and proficiency checks.

Say, when you talk to a master in Dojo, he checks your weapon master skill to see if you have enough skill points (it's a bit hard to say, but. If you set the max proficiency he can teach according to weapon master skill. Dojo A teaches up to 180 points in proficiency, which is the same as weapon master 3. So he checks your weapon skill points to see if you have enough proficiency pool for the skill he teaches). Then, he checks your proficiency to see if your proficiency is lower than the max.

e.g. Three people (A; WM4, proficiency 120. B; WM2, profiency 150. C; WM4, proficiency 200) visited Dojo A. you choose to learn one-hand weapon. He can teach this technique up to 180 (equivalent to WM3).
He first checks your weapon master skill. A and C satisfy the minimum WM skill check and goes to next check. But B has lower WM skill so he said 'You need to learn more about the manner at Dojo' and B is refused.
He then checks your proficiency to see if their proficiency was lower than 180. A satisfies it. So he'll be admitted to learn the skill. while, C, has such a high proficiency that he said 'your skill is beyond my ability. There's nothing to teach.'

C could go further. He(master of Dojo) could say 'Please teach us your skill!' and get money and exp by fighting them. or 'Please make me your disciple!' and he become your hero. or, 'Please make me your disciple!' and his Dojo become yours (and generates money). Or, 'Kill him!' and he and his all disciples attack you at once.

I think, it's nice addition to give your character a certificate (Menkyo, or Menjo. Mokuroku etc) when you reaches the max proficiency. 'You have mastered all this ryu can teach, they are the Mokuroku and Menkyo of Kurama ryu.' They could add your fame, or reputation.

Prior to Edo period, where ryu started specialised into a few weapons, most of ryu taught multiple of weapons. So we can set each skills' WM and proficiency check separately. It also makes every weapon types can be taught. We need to add something throwing (Shuriken) in some ryu. I think Kurama ryu is a good candidate.

P.s. Mokuroku is a 'list' of techniques of ryu. Menkyo, or Menjo is a certificate that he can teach (or open his Dojo).

Example: Katori Shinto ryu Mokuroku.

Yumi (bow), Taira (flat), Harai (sweep), Chigai (difference, avoidance)
Ji'nagi (earth sweep, lower sweep), Midare (confusion), Shibari (Locking), Sanjo

Kasumi (mist),
Madachi (gap sword, range sword),
Toyama (distanced mountain), Takiotoshi (waterfall drop),
Isonami (Shore wave), Kiridome (cut-stop),
Tsukidome (thrust-stop), Enken (dodging sword)
Ashigaeri (foot turn)
Nobedachi (long sword?)
Fushidachi (helping sword? two sword?)
Musho-todome (no-life last blow)
Yokotategiri (holizontal-vertical cut)
Yokokiri (holizontal cut, side cut), Kumode (spider arm)
Ryu'u (Dragon wing)
Kindachi (Golden sword)
Hichosho (Flying bird flight)
Goheiori (talisman break)
Samidare (pouring rain)
Murasame, Shuchu (in hand)
Muichiken (No-one sword)
Fuuchi-no-tachi (No striking)
Koubri-no-Kamae (Stance of crown), Shinken (real-sword)
Myoken (special-sword)
Zetsumyoken (super Sword)
Dokumyoken (Ultimate Sword)
Konjiken (Phoenix Sword)
Chuoken (Centre sword)
Ken-chu-Tai (Attack-middle-wait)
Tai-chu-Ken (Wait-middle-attack)
Imada (Yet), Furenka (Non-lotus flower)
Kaishikirenge (Opened and carpeted lotus flower)
GokuiKojo (True philosophy improve)
Yokoichimonji (One holizontal line)
Tateichimonji (One vertical line)
Eiketsuku (Hero's word.)

It was the shortest I could find. As you can see, many names of techniques are very vague and did not say anything about the techinque itself. It was to impress people with difficult name.
Musashi said 'There's no difference in methods between professional (Samurai, or martial artist, like Musashi) or novice, man or woman, adult or child.'
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fujiwara    
Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:23 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I've implemented a system similar to the faction point system in Last Days to bring more historical accuracy to the acquisition of samurai. Basically, Once you are assigned to a shugo, you can hire troops from him. In the course of the dialog, you are given the choice of hiring either ashigaru or samurai. The ashigaru thread directs you to the usual troop hiring screen, where you just buy troops. The samurai thread send you through several choices (basic samurai, yumi, and yari samurai, with prices in mon and faction points given PER TROOP), and how many you want to hire (1, 3, or 5). There is currently no way to check for over_max_party_size (or something similar), so, just as in Last Days, you may end up with a party that's a few troops over the limit. If that something we can live with, great Smile Faction points are doled out just the same as wages, and at the same time and in the same amounts as wages. Bushi start with 10 FP, and Kuge start with 20, representing the greater pull the kuge still had. I may add a modifier for the kuge class, allowing them more FP than bushi, since their personal combat skills are SO dismal.

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Ryuta    
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:14 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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That's the most common names for monks (and from historical ones).

Zi, Gi, Sou, Ku, Kai, En, Sai, Cho, Ho, Chin, Nen, Ten, Shin, Gan, Jin, E(Eh), Kei, An, Zen, Jo, Dou, Nan, Mon, Gaku, Ben, Ren, Nyo, In, Un, Gyo.

That'd be enough for the moment, I think.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:42 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Ryuta, are those single kanji? The Buddhist name that always comes to mind for me is Takeda Shingen. Can the names you posted be combined at will?

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Scope    
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:33 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Takeda Shingen was from the warring states period, he comanded the famous takeda cavalry (as a general mind you) and i recall he was a monk. he died then his son commanded the cavalry, and had it wiped out when nobunaga shot them with his musket's

you know what the odd thing is? i learned this from playing samurai warrior's and reading some of it up on the internet

edit: when animation support for arms and combat animations are supported, i would love the style that musashi's rival used ( was a long blade in a cane, called swallow's tail i believe). although not realistic, it would be great ar some point
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Ryuta    
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:16 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Yes, they are all single Kanji and they can be combined together to make the name as Samurai's. I, however, did not put any Kanji (pronounciations) which have to be in the specific place e.g. Ikkyu (Ichi + Kyu = Ikkyu).

Shingen is Shin-Gen (I forgot to add Gen in the list).

Nun used slightly different chinese character, I'll post them after doing some reserach.
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Ryuta    
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:01 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I played a Kuge character (the game stopped crashing, by the way), and noticed that he's got only Yumi, which needs power draw of 1.

I think it's better if he has one point in power draw already, or equipped with weaker bow (no power draw requirement). It's also nice if he has a short sword, maybe a dagger of some sort.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:12 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Ryuta wrote:
I played a Kuge character (the game stopped crashing, by the way), and noticed that he's got only Yumi, which needs power draw of 1.

I think it's better if he has one point in power draw already, or equipped with weaker bow (no power draw requirement). It's also nice if he has a short sword, maybe a dagger of some sort.


Noted.

What do you mean by "stopped crashing"? Are you referring to the bug you mentioned before?

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The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

Offline fujiwara

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 10:26:57 PM »
Ryuta    
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:50 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Yes. now I can move without the fear of getting crushed.
Though the game now often crashes when I enter a town.


eah, I know about that one too...*grumble grumble* its cause eludes me.

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fujiwara    
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:30 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Ryuta, what is Japanese for 'grass cutter'? I've got an idea for a quest item to gain a new hero. Thanks!

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:28 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Kusunagi, right? Maybe we should keep legendary artifacts higher level quests Very Happy It's fun to invent new sword names anyway :)

Here's an interesting site I found long ago with actual info on it: http://usagiyojimbo.com/casl/storylines/grasscutterhistory.html
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:30 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Good point. Didn't know it was historical (or at least mythological) artifact. The sword is used to gain the services of a nice quality kengo NPC. Ideas for a name?

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Ryuta    
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:09 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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If it is the sword, it is Kusanagi. or, Kusanagi-no-tsurugi. If it is people's name, Kusakari.

Actually, Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi is very strange.
It is believed to be forged by god. But as far as I know, it was originally a special treasure of the people of Izumo (Legend said it came out of the Yamata-no-Orochi, Eight-Headed Viper). It was then captured by Imperial force in the time of Myth (sometime between 2nd to 5th century). What's important thing was, during the reign of an Emperor (I forgot the name), those three items (Sword, mirror, jewel) were copied and the originals were distributed to various Shrines. the sword was, if I'm correct, in Great Shrine of Ise (actually it's still there). It is the replicas that is generally considered as the Crown Jewel of Japan. though, it was already as prestigious as the originals when the reliablre record came out.
After several fires damaged the (replica) sword and it is finally lost in 1085, An aristocrat who was in the side of Taira clan threw it to sea along with other Treasures. Jewel and Mirror was recovered but the sword was never found. Today's sword was replacement, called Ame-mo-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi (Sword of Gethering Clowd).

So, the original (or the one I believe) had been sealed for more than 1000 years until, in Edo period, some people decided to open the seal. According to record, the sword was double-edged streight sword made of White (or whitish) blonze with several spikes protruded arong the spine.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:15 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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This is embarrassing, as I consider myself to somewhat learned on Japanese history (or at least more than the average American). I knew about the sword, jewel, and mirror, but didn't know the sword was the Kusanagi. We should include it as some sort of gift to the Emperor (high level kuge mission), but you're right...not appropriate as a mercenary's price.

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Ryuta    
Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:20 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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You can make it a famous sword (or other weapons)

http://oninran.thorned.nl/viewtopic.php?t=8

I listed famous swords and weapons in near-bottom of the first page. Many of them have some kind of legend.

For example, how about Kogarasu-maru? It's a treasure of Taira clan and said to have made in 760 by Amakuni (though expert think it's made perhaps in early to mid Heian). The most strange of all feature is its tip is double-edged. The photo is the real Kogarasumasu but there're several sword made with this feature (they're all called kogarasumaru as well).
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:08 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Hmm... could have high thrusting damage :)

Actually, the sword for this quest is one that is forged by a swordsmith npc, so I think we should create a new name specifically for it, and then have some of these already existing legendary swords elsewhere in the game.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:01 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I just had an awesome but goofy idea. Rather than have the monk throw stones, he throws sutras, ala Miroku from Inuyasha Smile

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Ryuta    
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:52 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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What's sutra?
Like this one?
http://www.tnm.jp/jp/servlet/Con?&pageId=E16&processId=00&col_id=E19828&img_id=C0023228&ref=2&Q1=&Q2=&Q3=&Q4=11207_126____&Q5=&F1=&F2=

It's called Vasra. Any way, if there's only one point, it's called Tokkosho, three is Sankosho, five, like the one in link, is Gokosho.
It's practically for Mikkyo sect (includes one of Mt. Hiei) but not appropriate for Jodo priest.

Anyway, it's nice idea.

Is it possible to make, 'vengeance' quest? You'll be joined by a npc who needs your assistance to kill his/her enemy?
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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:35 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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*lmao* No, but that would be good too...nice and heavy. In the anime Inuyasha, Miroku is an itinerant Buddhist priest who banishes demons by throwing slips of paper with various Buddhist sutras written on them at the demons.

Any kind of quest is possible Smile

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fujiwara    
Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:56 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Update:

While, all these beautiful textures and models are being made, I've implemented the dojos. Right now, they're pretty simple. Talk to the dojo master, and after paying him a small fee, you can fight a sparring partner. Win the fight, and you get a small amount of xp. There is no progression of harder fighters like in the vanilla. Just an easy way for a beginner to get some xp and maybe a level, though it would take a long time to get anything past level 2 this way. Here are some screen caps:

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fujiwara    
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:32 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Some ideas I had for the dojos:

1) I definitely want to implement some kind of increasing level of difficulty for the sparring partners.
2) After so many consecutive wins, the dojo master will invite the player (or one of the other companions) to study under him. (Some automatic time passage or something)
3) The training will culminate with a fight against the master.
4) If you beat the master, you earn the title of master of that particular school.

Along the way the player (or companion) gets some proficiency bonuses, and definitely some power strike/draw/throw bonuses once you become a master of a particular school. All this is of course separate from but related to the dueling stuff.

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Curiousepic    
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:12 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Hmm... sounds pretty good, but lets keep realism in mind. These sensaei should be very high level and nigh impossible to beat unless you are comparable level and just as skilled, I'd really see that as an end-game feat.

Hence, let's go with an initial basic training dojo for now, perhaps a modest dojo in Kyoto, that has lost most of it's patrons in the fires, headed by a kind, but only moderately skilled sensei.

I'm not sure what I think about the fee... I'd think it might be a large one-time fee for a "lifetime membership" if you will, the sensei taking you in to his tutelage... or, no fee at all, depending.

Honestly, I think we're already getting to the point of having too much XP available, so I think it would be cool to have a number of different sparring partners as you suggest, with increasing difficulty levels, and you only gain xp when you kill each one fo the first time.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:35 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Curiousepic wrote:
Hmm... sounds pretty good, but lets keep realism in mind. These sensaei should be very high level and nigh impossible to beat unless you are comparable level and just as skilled, I'd really see that as an end-game feat.


Right, I've got the sensei set at level 50, with sword skills somewhere up around 500 Exclamation

Quote:
Hence, let's go with an initial basic training dojo for now, perhaps a modest dojo in Kyoto, that has lost most of it's patrons in the fires, headed by a kind, but only moderately skilled sensei.


I keep forgetting to change the start location to near Kyoto. I'll move the dojo from Hyogo to Kyoto. I have all eight dojos set up, to represent the eight ryu (I think it was eight we discussed before).

Quote:
I'm not sure what I think about the fee... I'd think it might be a large one-time fee for a "lifetime membership" if you will, the sensei taking you in to his tutelage... or, no fee at all, depending.


I'll make it free and put a cap on how much xp the master hands out. I also want to start working on the specializations, so that certain dojos will only train in bows, or polearms.

Quote:
Honestly, I think we're already getting to the point of having too much XP available, so I think it would be cool to have a number of different sparring partners as you suggest, with increasing difficulty levels, and you only gain xp when you kill each one fo the first time.


Agreed.

Onto the encounter system:

I've got the basics implemented (you've seen it with the innkeepers), and expanded it to the spawned parties (patrols, scouts, and local garrisons). I've also written some scripts so that as the faction attitude toward the player changes, so change the attitudes of the related parties. I've written in a delay for those scripts, so that the change doesn't spread faction-wide immediately (which I think is unrealistic). This system actually makes the encounter dialog easier, since you only have to look at the attitude to determine how the party responds, and only check/modify the relation if you fight. It was cool, I ran into a Yamana patrol right after I has wiped out some local garrisons, but they let me on by because they had not yet heard about the garrison fights (i.e. the trigger hadn't fired yet to update the attitude). I think things like that add a lot of realism. So, where do you want to take this from here?

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From Ryuta's history thread, and any other information I could find about them, these are the leaders of each faction and their major vassals, and where they could be located. Whether these should replace the Shugo, or actually be generals that lead armies or just political advisors, I'm not sure. Historically, I'm sure some of them were in Kyoto with their respective lords.
Any thoughts?

If the name doesn't have a location attached, this means that the province they are in charge of is outside of our map. That frees them up to be the wandering generals or supplementary npcs in Kyoto.

Hosokawa Lords/Generals:

Hosokawa Katsumoto - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosokawa_Katsumoto (East Kyoto)
Hosokawa Shigeuji -
Hosokawa Masaharu -
Hosokawa Masaari -
Hosokawa Shimotsuke-no-Kami -
Hosokawa Mochikata -


Hosokawa Allied Lords/Generals:

Shiba Yoshitoshi -
Hatakeyama Masanaga - Kii Province (Wakayama)
Kyogoku Mochikiyo - Western Omi Province (Otsu)
Akamatsu Masanori - Harima Province (Himeji)
Togashi Masachika -
Takeda Kuninobu - Wakasa Province (Obama) Experienced Cavalry.



Yamana Lords/Generals:

Yamana Mochitoyo/Souzen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamana_Mochitoyo (West Kyoto)
Yamana Yoshinori -
Yamana Katsutoyo -
Yamana Shuri-Dayu -


Yamana Allied Lords/Generals:

Shiba Yoshikado - Echizen Province (Tsuruga)
Hatakeyama Yoshinari - Yamato (Nara) Kawachi (Fujidera) Provinces
Hatakeyama Yoshisumi - could be in Fujidera
Isshiki Yoshinao - Tango Province (Miyazu)
Toki Masayori -
Rokkaku Takayori - Eastern Omi Province (Moriyama)
Ouchi Masahiro - Was in Kyoto during Shokakuji battles
Kawano Norimichi -


This leaves The following provinces' owners unknown:

Hosokawa:
Settsu
Izumi
Iwaji
East Tanba

Yamana:
Iga (Ishikki)
Tajima
West Tanba
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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:21 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I think Hosokawa Katsumoto and Yamana Mochitoyo should definitely be in there, playing their proper historical parts. Whether or not they play a major role in teh game itself remains to be seen, but they should definitely be the guys to talk to to join one faction or the other. The rest would make good generals, but I want to refrain from too much reference to historical personages. It is just a game after all. Smile

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Ryuta    
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:54 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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The Generals whose domains are in the map should be in that location, perhaps function as primaly quest giver (These have more quests for the player character, or quests were only given from them so that player character wouldn't have to wonder around huge maps for new quest).
Others whose domains are out of the map should be in Kyoto. At least it's better to see crowded headquarter than Katsumoto/Sozen standing alone in a room.
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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:03 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Is Yamana-dono given name at this point in history Mochitoyo or Souzen? Or does it matter?

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Ryuta    
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:44 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Souzen. He's already became a monk.

By the way, I'd like to see him.

http://www.tnm.jp/jp/servlet/Con?&pageId=E16&processId=01&col_id=A10137&img_id=C0006292&ref=2&Q1=&Q2=&Q3=&Q4=11310_15_____&Q5=&F1=&F2=

His name was Ikku Souzen (1394-1481). Usually Ikku. A unusual Zen priest. He called him 'Wild man' and broke every kind of rule (eating meat/fish, sleeping with prostitute etc.) He was also a bastard son of an Emperor.
i think There's somewhere where I put the name of leader of Hattori clan...
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:30 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Heh, sounds like an interesting character.

Here's this:

Quote:
And regarding Iga Ninja clan, I've found the family line of Hattori clan. There's unfortunately no info about when they lived but I guessed Hattori Yasukiyo (Great great grandfather of Hattori Hanzo Masanari) was the person around this time.


Exactly what role do you think the Hattori clan should play, relative to the Iga and Koga clans.... and also, you go on in that thread to mention that the Koga's independent government was made up of 21 different clans, including Yamana, and Yamana seems to hold sway over Rokkaku, of which Koga was a part, right? All very confusing, do you have any suggestions about how to sort it all out for the game?
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Ryuta    
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:17 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I have not really a plan for Hattori clan at the moment but as far as I know many players are expecting to see a kind of Ninja in the mod. And if you implement them, it's better to use the said Yasukiyo than Hanzo.

Koga was a kind of confederate whose decision was made by the conference among 21 clans. Iga is governed in slightly different manner. If we're to include Koga, I think we need one representative.

Of course we can add another one who tries to use the player character to dominate the Koga area (by eliminating the others).
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The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

Offline fujiwara

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 10:27:24 PM »
fujiwara    
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:51 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Joined: 11 Aug 2005 Posts: 364 Location: Austin, Texas, USA    
That could get into some really good gameplay and story-telling. I like that idea a lot.

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Tao called Tao is not Tao

-Lao Tzu



Ok, i've been getting relatively up-to-date and I can see that:

a) plot is probably all defined by now
b) quests, even if not completely written out are defined by class
c) I have no idea if my "services" are needed.

Feel free to order me around, I prefer to work with goals in mind; if indeed you guys need me for anything (other than coding, scripting or texturing), just say the word.

Cheers Wink
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 8:38 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 286 Location: NC, USA    
Overall plot is defined by history, but there are gaps that we can fill in, and none of those have really been established yet.

Overall class questline plots have only really been fleshed out for Bushi, and only have rough outlines/ideas for kuge, merchant and the secondary classes.

Story and plot should be a group effort, especially with Ryuta checking in for accuracy, so yes, we defintely still need storyline, and since you say you work best with goals, we should go ahead and outline them. I'll make another post in the category to get started on fleshing out all the plot elements for the mod, and you can contribute as you wish while everyone else is working on other stuff Smile
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Manji    
Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 9:21 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Okidokie. Smile
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fujiwara    
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:26 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Welcome back, Manji! And yes, your services are always needed. As CuriousEpic said, very little has been fleshed out, and only for the Bushi class, and that only for the tier 1 quests. Entry-level (tier 1) quests for Kuge have been difficult in coming, simply because the Kuge class isn't directly combat related. For some reason, I envision the Merchant quest/story line being somewhat dark and seedy, almost mafia-ish, with conflicts between various za. Currently, for the Merchant, there's only the one quest with getting some trade opened up (I'd like to do a few more quests like that, with more obvious effects once the quest is completed). I'm not really sure what to do with the Ronin, except that that class is most likely to be able to spread out into the subclasses.

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Manji    
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:17 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Good to hear from someone... Smile
Some brainstorming:

Kuge: I think a good option for the aristocratic class would be NPC related quests (for example a quest where the kuge character has to find another kuge NPC and if he succeed to convince him to join his faction then the quest is completed succesfully) and conquest related quests (for example "hire X samurai and take the Z town").
Kuge would fit prefectly for plotting and similar but i'm not so sure how much indepth the city government system is going to be so i'll wait for updates on that section.

The merchant class could/should indeed follow a more rogueish setting, even if the real yakuza only appeared in the 18th century.... perhaps some "capture the kuge going from point A to point B" quests would fit nicely along with some "deliver this package to the X NPC" while at the same time triggering some ronin that would hunt him down.

Well, generally speaking I think all fighting classes (Bushi, Ronin and to some extent Kuge) should have three major "paths": the Path of the Young Warrior, the Path of the Wise Master and the Path of the Rogue. Advancing on each path would be possible by completing certain quests and perhaps advancement on these paths would grant the player new "unique" weapons and other items.
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:57 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Regarding that last comment, This will basically be taken care of by the main questline, the Kengo secondary questline, and Bandit secondary questline, respectively. I don't think we need much splitting of questlines when the player will be able to choose from the 4 secondary questlines in addition to his main one (within some restrictions).
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Ryuta    
Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:38 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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I was thinkin of a type of 'fetch X' quest for Kuge.

It goes like;

NPC: A high-ranking Kuge, who fled from the war in Kyoto, has been in this town for two days. I'd like to invite him to a party of some sort to ease his pain over his exile. But being a rural, uneducated Samurai, I'm not sure how to entertain such a highly-sophisticated people. Since you're also a Kuge, I believe you know what is the best to prepare.

PC: I recommend... (then options which character would choose appears)
a) Sake from Kyoto. Because Sake is essencial to a party, offering him a sake from his birthplace will surely please him.
b) Genji-Monogatari as present. Beautifully written and illustrated book is what impress a Kuge the most. Also he would think that you're quite an educated person rather than an uneducated warmanger.
c) Brocaded silk garment as present. It is not only beautiful, but with iris pattern, he will surely reminded a scene from Ise-Monogatari. The scene was about a party, who went far from Kyoto, saw irises and tried to compose a poem with Iris (Kakitsubata/Kakitsuhata) hidden as a code. A man, composed the poem.
'Ka'rakoromo
'Ki'tsutsu narenishi
'Tsu'mashiaraba
'Ha'rubaru konuru
'Ta'bi o shitozo omou
(My bracaded garment became so worn out during this journey. How far we've been travelling!)
So, this present surely give him a impression that you understand his feeling and convey it in very elegant way.
d) Fresh fish. It is very difficult to obtain a fresh fish in Kyoto and many fish are either dried or salted, thus he has not enjoyed the real taste of fresh fish. If you offer him a dish that shows off the taste of fresh fish, he'll definitely be pleased.

NPC: That's good idea! I'd like to to bring X amount of X(the one the PC choosed previously) immediately.

It can also be extended to ...
'I have to entertain a high-ranking Samurai...'
'I wonder what to present to lord Katsumoto to congraturate his recent victory over Yamana...'
'There's a girl who was of high birth whom I fancy, what kind of present is best for her?'
'I'd like to donate something to a shrine to seek divine assistance on this war. What do you think the best?'
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Curiousepic    
Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:45 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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Ahhh I like these. Having such detail in the dialogue really makes it more than just a fetch quest. Actually... what if there was another level to the actual quest, some dialogue-based challenge, such as listening to his prediciment, and then having to choose the best option based on the information he gave, with different amounts of XP depending on how appropriate the choise is. Or, some other less obvious challenge...
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fujiwara    
Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:44 am    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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CE, Ruyta, both ideas are BRILLIANT, and easily implemented. CE, I wonder, since I'm unable to do a great amount of work right now, if a separate thread could be set up with links to stuff like this, to make finding and implementing this easier once I'm able.

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Ryuta    
Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:24 pm    Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
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C, that idea was really great.



I'll update this post as we complete work on, and integrate features for the Alpha and beyond.

Goal for Alpha release: Early April


Needs work, time consuming:
- Unique, innovative class-specific features and abilities, such as the travelling merchant script, selling items in your inventory for a slightly raised profit as hours or days of game-time pass.

Most work done:
- Realistic, seasonal economy including harvests, seasonal production, shortages, and time-based events all affecting the economy.
- Historical figures such as major generals of each faction, some to meet in battle.
- Many and various Hero/follower NPCs.
- 2 Main factions, numerous allied and independent factions.
- Many, many new trade goods with historical availability where known.

Complete, needs to be integrated:
- New UI graphics.

Integrated, needs work before Alpha:
- Altered troop acquisition system to account for historical accuracy (Samurai aren't simply hired)
- Class-specific quests for Bushi, Kuge, and Merchant classes.
- Fame/Infamy system.
- Scores of new troop types.
- New troop advancement trees.
- Many and various travellers on logical paths.
- New, large, very detailed and to-scale map based on topographical data of the area.

Ongoing:
- Authentic, atmospheric speech in dialogues.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Integrated, needs work after Alpha:
- 8 New classes.

Complete and Integrated:
- 60+ various locations.
- Many new weapon, armor, and horse types.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coming Features

- New models and textures for weapons, armor, horses, items, and architecture.
- Fully navigable scenes for villages, towns, cities, Kyoto, and other unique locations, with the option to use menu shortcuts.
- New map terrain textures.
- 80+ locations including unique and "hidden" locations.
- Scripted indoor and "urban" battles.
- Commandable NPC parties.
- Familiarity system allowing NPCs to (after meeting you) remember only you, your faction, or your deeds, depending on your fame and how obviously you identify yourself, allowing you to travel incognito in some situations.
- "Meta-skills," new abilities dependent on the player's attributes or other skills in combination.
- "Challenges," scripted events whose outcome depends on the player's attributes and skills, including infiltration for Shinobi and diplomatic negotiations for Kuge.
- Items that enable certain abilities or alter a player's attributes and/or skills, such as a Merchant's cart to increase inventory management.
- Unique, involved questlines for each class.
- Rank systems for each class dependent on your deeds, completed quests, and fame, and effecting the availability of troops, items, and other benefits.
- Many and various general quests available to most classes.
- Historical events that occur at specific times during the calendar, including major battles and events of the Onin war tying in with the class questlines, as well as festivals and other calendar events.
- Along with this, an emphasis on the realistic passage of time; even hiring troops will take an hour or so for them to get packed up and ready to go.
- Most classes will have an appropriate way to go into "stasis," making a marginal amount of money and/or experience while time passes by (similar to how it passes while sleeping at an inn), to make time pass by or simply gain money realistically without having to trade or battle brigands.
- Assassins and death; an option to enable true death for heroes and the player, which will only occur if you are actively hunted for some reason. Assassins may ambush you if you are travelling in a small group, or heroic generals may hunt you down with a war band, slaughter your troops, and execute you.
- (Pending an animation editor and lots of work) New animations, including appropriate combat styles and perhaps more (idle animations, etc.)

The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

Offline fujiwara

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 01:50:55 PM »
I'm going to unlock this thread so people can comment, but don't go nuts, or back in lockdown it goes.

The horses tend to get their legs caught in the catapult rather than being properly launched.

carlo

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 05:44:14 PM »
I LIKE THE UPDATES in the mod :green :VERY GOOD in the future i like to attack casles and defend my castle with arrows  ohh and a nice picture http://warandgame.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/samu1300.jpg and this one  is very cool just like this mod   :green: http://pietschker.de/images/cry_havoc/ch_samurai.jpg
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 04:27:03 AM by carlo »

Offline Ichimonji Hidetora

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2008, 05:07:41 AM »
Interesting read...

I noticed that famous swords have been mentioned a long time ago, like Kogarasu Maru, I modelled that sword not long ago (and several other famous swords as well).

About Carlo's pictures: Thanks for posting the first one, it shows how quivers were properly worn, I just noticed that the warrior in a link that fujiwara provided wears his quiver the same way: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/36.htm
That will be usefull when we finally get a decent Japanese quiver in the game.
"The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!"

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2008, 06:25:29 AM »
Interesting read...

I noticed that famous swords have been mentioned a long time ago, like Kogarasu Maru, I modelled that sword not long ago (and several other famous swords as well).

About Carlo's pictures: Thanks for posting the first one, it shows how quivers were properly worn, I just noticed that the warrior in a link that fujiwara provided wears his quiver the same way: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/36.htm
That will be usefull when we finally get a decent Japanese quiver in the game.

Yeah, speaking of that - any really good closeups of Japanese quivers, post them in the graphics improvements thread.  I'll put them back on the list now ... they're going to take forever, with all the animation, but since a lot of the other stuff has calmed down, it might be time to take a crack at them again.

carlo

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Re: Ancient History
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2008, 03:12:52 PM »
just some history on the yumi bow   :D  http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_denig_0301.htm  ohh please check out my new small video on Samurai  art   :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hry3tjb_2kQ
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 06:24:45 PM by carlo »