login

Author Topic: FAO Raz Templars  (Read 19087 times)

Templar

  • Guest
FAO Raz Templars
« on: April 09, 2008, 12:49:40 PM »
I've seen the pictures of the Templars in this mod for the game and I have some questions.

1) Why is there no cloaks? The Templars wore White Cloaks With The Red Cross in the middle.

2) Do the Templars have a White Shield with the Red Cross in the middle?

3) Could you tell me if the player picks if he can be a Templar?

4)  When On The Horses Do the Templars Carry a Banner on there spear? White with the red cross.

Thanks In Advance.

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2008, 04:54:15 PM »
The white tabbard with the red cross was the FRENCH Crusader's Cross.

(While members of the order who also happened to be French might have worn that, it was not a symbol of their order as such.)

The Templars flag was black over white.

Please do check your history.

Templar

  • Guest
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2008, 05:09:52 PM »
One reported version of the flag of the Knights Templar, but not the most famous or widely accepted one. That honour is given to the standard red cross on plain white background, which symbolized purity and innocence.


Templar's In White Cloaks.


Helmet use by  Templars and many other Knights during the Medieval ages.

Shield Templars.



I just wanted a banner on a lance/spear with the Red cross on a white background and also the cloak.

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2008, 08:58:17 PM »
What are your sources?  I ask because most documents do not place the red cross on the Bauceans flag (the black over white) until much later than our period in history.  There are some references to a somewhat smaller red cross in the center of the flag, or on tabbards or armor, but they appear to be somewhat later as well.

However, as far as I know, the flag you posted (with the large red Spanish-style cross) was first used in Portugal, LONG after our period of history. 

The shield you posted is clearly French, not Templar order - it is marked with the "fleur-de-lis", symbol of the French monarchy, and so would not have been allowed by orders such as the Templars or Hospitallers. 

The only existing art I know of that shows a Templar shield in correct period is a painting of two guys on a horse, and their shields are black on the top third, and white on the lower 2/3, with no other markings.

The Rule of the Templars, as specified by the Council of Troyes, 1129, specified that all in their order were to wear habits of a single color - white, black, or brown - and were specifically forbidden to decorate them with such things as the Crusader's Cross shown in your previous post.

Link to a copy of that in English:
http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/religion/monastic/t_rule.html

And so until proven otherwise, I and many other historians around here will consider your sources of information to be highly questionable at best.  Sorry about that ... but there's just a lot of really bad information going around about this period in history.


The mod uses black or white tabbard with the small red cross on the upper left side of the chest - probably a little later period than it should be, but necessary to mark the Templars.  Templar helmets and shields are black and white.  There are two horse barding models, one black and white, and the other with a red cross on the white portion.  Again, the red cross may be later period than intended, but it serves well to mark the Templars, so accomodation has been made.  That is as of the .808 developers' version (which was not released for technical reasons) - and is not necessarily fixed for future versions.

The solid white with the big red cross in the middle is just plain wrong.  It's a French Crusader's Cross pattern, not Templar order.  Easy to see how they got mixed up, but not a mistake we care to replicate.

Offline Merlkir

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5742
    • View Profile
    • My DeviantArt online Gallery
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2008, 11:38:48 PM »
What are your sources?

Wikipedia I would say. The shield is some horrible wallhanger...well, google spits some ugly shit at you after searching for templars.
Here's my gallery: http://merlkir.deviantart.com/

I'm now painting and drawing commissions. I'll paint portraits, pets, girlfriends, favourite characters..you name it. Send me a PM if interested ;)

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2008, 12:11:09 AM »
What are your sources?

Wikipedia I would say. The shield is some horrible wallhanger...well, google spits some ugly shit at you after searching for templars.

That or some video game or movie trivia ... but whatever, I suspect that it was not the finest of historical research.

Although I think that shield is a copy of an actual one, a ceremonial parade-dress shield used by some kind of French royal guard, maybe 1500 or later ... there's something vaguely familiar about it.  I'm pretty sure I've seen that crest before.  But I'm absolutely sure it was neither a Templar pattern nor a shield intended for combat.

In all fairness, the flag was at least a Templar flag ... just a little later period than the mod.

But there was just no excuse for those robes with the huge gaudy red crosses all over them ... that looks like concept art for a low-budget movie.  "Costume of the Templars, as ordered by Pope Pompous Gasbag IX."

This mod is as bad as Onin-no-Ran about having to wade through mountains of really bad information trying to get to anything useful.  (There it's ninja myths, here it's orders of knighthood.)  There is just SO much misinformation out there, and much of it has been repeated for so long that even otherwise decent historians are starting to buy into some of it.

Offline Merlkir

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5742
    • View Profile
    • My DeviantArt online Gallery
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2008, 12:20:05 AM »
The drawings look to me like a victorian reconstruction, there's a whole set of them (normans, saxons, vikings...) and people use them a LOT on the internet..
Here's my gallery: http://merlkir.deviantart.com/

I'm now painting and drawing commissions. I'll paint portraits, pets, girlfriends, favourite characters..you name it. Send me a PM if interested ;)

grailknighthero

  • Guest
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2008, 12:33:56 AM »
I tried to tell him on taleworlds that you guys know what you are talking about and that Ron is a historian and that you guys might have another one helping you out as well.  He must not have listened.

This is interesting
On Brothers who Stand Too Long in Chapel

15. It has been made known to us and we heard it from true witnesses that immoderately and without restraint you hear the divine service whilst standing. We do not ordain that you behave in this manner, on the contrary we disapprove of it. But we command that the strong as well as the weak, to avoid a fuss, should sing the psalm which is called Venite, with the invitatory and the hymn sitting down, and say their prayers in silence, softly and not loudly, so that the proclaimer does not disturb the prayers of the other brothers.

I assume that there were those who stood throughout the entire thing and so prided themselves for having the endurance to do so while there were others who could not?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 12:43:54 AM by grailknighthero »

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2008, 01:20:28 AM »
Negative ... it was an issue of being seen.  Standing around singing and praying loudly was a quick way to prove how great you were.  See also the practice in Judaism of the Pharisees making long prayers and offerings to the poor in extremely public ways, to prove how sincere they were.  Also, kings and other royalty were known for making their presence in religious services extremely public, to prove to their subjects just how pious they were.  Several early monastic orders had specific decrees against this, believing (and reasonably so) that such prideful demonstrations and showmanship were both ethically wrong and unhealthy for monastic communities... and the Templars and Hospitallers, being semi-monastic orders themselves, followed that pattern.

The order to the Templars was that they get out of sight, sit down, and say their prayers quietly - so as not to disturb anyone else, as well as to discourage excessive (and subsequently false) demonstration of piety.

These were people who trained all their lives to bash people with swords.  Standing for a couple of hours would hardly prove much endurance, even wearing armor (which would also probably be considered impolite in church, unless there was a darn good reason for it).

-----------------

And to be honest, Raz is the better historian of the Crusades period.  I'm a fair historian in a worldwide sense, but hardly specialized enough to be considered an expert on the Kingdom of Jerusalem or the Second to Third Crusades.

But experts or no, Raz wants historical - so everybody is doing their dead-level best to get this thing as historical as we can.  Hasn't been easy ... evidence from the time is a lot more sketchy than people realize.  A lot of this stuff really is pure guesswork, or at least extrapolation from sources that leave a lot of holes in the picture.  We've had to round up a lot of help, and a lot of good research has been contributed from sources too numerous to name.

I am, however, a good enough historian to know information from obvious drivel ... so I'm quick to put the lid on stuff like this.

grailknighthero

  • Guest
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2008, 09:50:51 AM »
I'm glad historians are working on this and are taking the time and research to make it as historically as possible.  I didn't know Raz was a historian, sorry for the confusion. 

War_B*stard

  • Guest
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2008, 04:51:42 PM »
I'm glad historians are working on this and are taking the time and research to make it as historically as possible.  I didn't know Raz was a historian, sorry for the confusion. 
Ron's the dude when to comes to accuracy (RCM, anyone?).

Ron, you acted with commendable constraint there. After seeing those pictures I thought we were all about about to witness the comprehensive mauling of a young man's idealistic view of the templars.

I think the pictures came from this abomination of a site: http://www.templarhistory.com/
As well as interpreting the history of the templars at an unequalled level of pompocity, they also sell many such useful items as this:

It's a templars BBQ apron.

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2008, 06:45:41 PM »
Idealism is one thing that did go well with the Templars.  They were a monastic order dedicated to preservation of the Church, and specifically any knowledge that could be gained from the historical sites in Jerusalem.  Very few groups in history have proven themselves more idealistic, or more heroic (in the social sense of being universally admired).  They were the toughest warriors in the world for three centuries, but as an act of humility, would not even decorate their tabbards.  It would be hard to have an overly-idealistic view of them.

I don't maul people for having bad information (especially on a topic where so much bad information is going around), but I do try to put the lid on the bad information as quickly as possible, before rumor and confusion start to out-weigh facts.  And as I said, Raz is the real expert on the accuracy of this period.  I just catch the most blatant errors, like French Crusader's Cross on a barbecue apron being passed off as a Templar insignia.

Oddly enough, I skimmed a few of the articles on that site just now, and at least some of the information, while painfully generalized and dumbed down to about a third grade level, was essentially accurate.  (I only skimmed a couple of them, and rather quickly... I might have missed something.)  Their mistakes seem to be in the gap between what their articles (which appear to be from decent history books) say, and the drivel they are selling.  Because what they were selling was second-rate souvenir stuff that, while it might pass for costume at an SCA event, did not appear to be based on very good research.

(Not that I have anything specifically against the SCA - it's a good way to get people to study history, and has provided a lot of the modern data on ancient combat - but the nature of their organization is to allow a lot of variation that would not be acceptable in pure research.  Costume at an SCA event could be severely inaccurate, and the person would still be allowed to be part of the activity.  Many second-rate organizations take advantage of this to sell questionable junk to newbies of such re-enactment groups.)

And Raz is a damn good historian.  A lot better than I was, at his age.  I respect his research.

Templar

  • Guest
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2008, 06:51:24 PM »
Thank you for putting me straight. At school and on the internet you see the red cross on white background I like many others thought they were the Templar's Colours.

Is this mod going to let you be a Templar?

Is the mod going to be for the Version 1.0 when it comes out?

Truthly I'd like too of seen the Templar we see in the Movies (Kingdon of heaven anyone?) be true but so be it,  is there any truth in the whole Red cross white background thing in the movies and pictures we see of the templars?

Regards.

Offline Ron Losey

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 4418
    • View Profile
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2008, 07:17:26 PM »
Yes, the mod allows players to join the Templars or the Hospitallers, and to work your way up within their ranks.  The exact details of this were still being worked out, but that was one of the first functions integrated into the mod.

The next expected work on this mod will not be until M&B 1.0 is ready.  It does seem to be too much work to port it twice, and Raz is doing all the programming himself.

The Templars in "Kingdom of Heaven" were portrayed with absolutely zero degree of historical accuracy whatsoever.  While there were elements among the Crusader factions who pushed for open war against the Muslims, the Templars were certainly not among them.  And the uniforms were entirely wrong.  Actually, that movie was one of the biggest collections of historical inaccuracy to be assembled in recent years.  (Although it did have some pretty cool costumes and special effects, even if they were, for the most part, inaccurate.)

The red cross on solid white background was a French Crusader's Cross.  It was certainly a common enough symbol floating around at the time (along with its counterparts, a white cross on red for England and white on black for "Holy Roman Empire" Germany).  Art of the period indicates that such crests were extremely common, both in their simple forms and superimposed on various other personal crests.  It was, however, NOT a pattern used by the order of the Templars... their colors were black over white, and their tabbards either white, black, or brown, later adopting a small red cross added to the upper left (but certainly not the huge, imposing, flashy crosses on all sides used by the French crusader knights).

An easy mistake to make, if your study of history has been a little patchy... but it is unfortunate that it is a mistake so often repeated.

Agent Griff

  • Guest
Re: FAO Raz Templars
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2008, 02:43:01 AM »
Sorry for appearing doubting, but where exactly is it mentioned that most Templars wore plain black, white or brown surcoats with only a small cross on their breast to mark them as members of the Order? I just want to know the argument against the French crusader crosses most people associate with the Templars if, in a discussion with my history teacher for instance, I want to convince him what the Templars actually wore.

Named sources would be great, Ron.