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Author Topic: The lords and knights of Westeros  (Read 60763 times)

ser Jeekim

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2008, 05:00:55 pm »
So on, it has to be very expensive and tiring to chain all those rings together in comparison to hitting a piece of metal.

Making maille must have been both time-consuming and tedious, but still requiring a lot less skill or strength than making plate armor, i believe.
Not to mention it being much easier to repair, or to adjust so it would fit the wearer better...
Poor apprentices...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 05:05:56 pm by ser Jeekim »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2008, 08:56:28 pm »
The fight scene you described is not that uncommon of duels.  The dynamics of a duel are somewhat different from large-scale combat - with only one opponent to worry about, and nobody coming to help you either, there's a lot more dancing around than actual fighting.  You have more time to play with an opponent, and try to wear him down - time you would not have in a group battle, because 12 more people would take a swing at you meanwhile.

George Silver said that, in duels, usually the one who is best at wrestling or grappling usually wins.  The fight comes down to dragging someone to the ground and trying to force a dagger or the like into them (around their armor, if it's an armored duel).  Silver was insulting the rapier, at the time, but the point applies.

I tend to know more about group combat or survival of assaults than I do about duels.  The "rules" to dueling make it kind of a strange animal, tactically speaking.  There is no retreat, and options are somewhat limited (i.e. nobody to pull out the wounded, no backup coming).  I figure, personally, that if you are going to get killed in combat, it should be for better reasons than because you volunteered to stand there and fight it out.

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Realistically, yes, maille is heavy on the shoulders.  But it can be fixed to a harness or cloth backing to distribute the weight, the same way plate armors can.  The heaviest coat of maille I ever made (about 60 pounds), I had straps (old backpack straps, actually) over the shoulders, from the middle of the chest to the middle of the back - which took the lateral pressure off of my shoulderblades and made the armor wear quite nice.  (Comically, I made that one out of keychain rings ... went together in no time at all, and some of the toughest stuff I ever saw.  I let somebody else have that one.)  Japan always backed their mail in cloth, among other things, to help distribute the weight.

And both plate and chain armors can be a pain to make, but they are very different skills.  Plate armors involve more than getting it the right shape - you also have to harden the metal to a point where it won't bend, but not so hard that it will shatter (same as the problem with a knife blade).  Chain armors, also, require some skill in clothing design ... a flat section of it is not hard to make, if you have enough time, but a suit of armor is another issue.

Also don't forget that, between chain and plate armors, there are a whole range of scale, lamellar, and brigandine designs.  With the exception of the Japanese samurai image, most Western people don't think about knights or nobility wearing brigandine or lamellar.  But in the Middle East and much of central Asia, it was considered normal.  And research suggests that it was more common in Europe between 1200 and 1500 than most fiction writers suggest.  Those armor types have a whole new set of construction and repair problems.

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And when I said it would stop modern handguns, I was talking .357 Magnum, not .25 Auto.  Most people greatly over-estimate the stopping power of smaller handguns.  I was born in Oklahoma - the cowboys out there all carry magnum-caliber sidearms and/or rifles, because they have no such illusions.

Historically, it was artillery, not hand-held muskets, that made metal armors ineffective.  Armor that will stop round-ball from a matchlock musket is still useless against a six-pound-gun load of grapeshot.  That is still true today ... modern body armors are extremely useful in a police shootout, where small-arms are the rule.  Modern body armor doesn't really help if you're expecting to be saturation-bombed from the air.

Nahadiel

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2008, 11:58:54 am »
Wow, I didn't know you crafted chainmails, I've always wanted to do something like that but my hands just cant coordinate with my brain. :P

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2008, 05:12:33 pm »
Wow, I didn't know you crafted chainmails, I've always wanted to do something like that but my hands just cant coordinate with my brain. :P

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to bend wire.

And if you use good hard modern steel wire, you don't really need to rivet or weld the links.  (Japan never did ... they had good steel.)

Question is just why you would need to.  I have a habit of trouble finding me, so I sometimes wear mine.  Keeps switchblades out of your back.  But if you don't just look like a glowing "robbery target" sign, you probably don't need to wear armor.

Agent Griff

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2008, 12:55:25 pm »
Here is a link to a thread on myArmoury discussing a stunning suit of plate armour (or harness) made for a modern-day auction house.

Link: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7687&highlight=english+armor+armour+joust

The armour featured is jet-black with gilded edges, and its decorations make it perfect for the colourful medieval world of Westeros. I can already envision this as Brynden Tully's prized armour. It is stated in the book that he wears black armour (at Riverrun at least he is described as wearing it when "discussing" with Jaime Lannister).

Here are a couple of screens of the armour. More of them abound in the above thread.





The helmet is a classical Armet, from about the middle to late Fifteenth Century (about the time-period of the War of the Roses, which is the main time setting for ASoIaF according to Martin).

I hope you like the armour.

Agent Griff

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2008, 01:51:47 am »
I've seen that in the latest version of Native (.950) there are several lords that don't have a fief. Thus, each faction has about 20 lords, many of whom do not have their own lands and properties. In ASoIaF that would mean that they would be considered sworn swords to the cause of their faction leader, much like many knights were in the books like Ser Lyle Crakehall to the Lannister cause, Ser Mark Mullendore to Renly's and latter the Tyrell's cause etc.

So, the panache of noble enemies to fight in the mod can be enlarged by a great many additional lords and knights that don't actually own land, and there are a wealth of lords that aren't currently included in the mod, but would make good choices. Ser Addam Marbrand for example, one of the most capable Lannister commanders, doesn't have lands of his own, but is in line to inherit Ashemark after his father, Lord Damon Marbrand, passes away. Neither him nor his father is in the mod currently. There are many other examples.

And would it be possible to have several differently named noble enemies at the same time? I mean, when fighting the Lannisters for example, you could fight Lords or knights. Currently, every enemy leader is a lord when some of them should be knights. So, for example, you encounter Lord Tywin Lannisters party and are defeated. As you retreat to your own lands, you are followed and attacked by Ser Gregor Clegane, and
their names would appear in the screen before battle as such. I think it's possible, because I've seen it in the 867 A.D. Lords of War mod where nobles in the Wessex faction are either Ealdormans or Reeves.

Nahadiel

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2008, 10:06:15 am »
Along the last half month I've sent to Sparehawk info about each faction... you know, the main members of the great houses, names for maesters, master-at-arms and merchants for towns and castles. For their sworn minor houses, I've given him names for their lords and known heirs, knights, fiefs and mottoes.

I've already suggested him to do some things with those men:
-place them as heroes in NPC armies: good choice for squires, close friends and those lord's brothers who always accompany each other. So on, the very best option for those men in Beric's party and Bloody Mummers. Also, the main way to use Rainbow and Kingsguards and known bodyguards or battle companions (like Dacey Mormont for Robb).

-place some as garrison in given castles or towns: good choice for known master-at-arms, captains of the guard or castellans (like Rodrick Cassel when Robb went to war). If not as garrison members, they could be given a small party and tie their AI to the places they must guard.

-give them a small party (not big as they don't have their own fiefs to support it).

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Regarding to marshals feature from newer version I've sent Sparehawk some ideas. You all know what marshall does: he is able to give orders to everybody, even their own faction leader. So on, you already know that some novel-accurate faction leaders (as little Lord Robert, Doran Martell or Joffrey) shouldn't be at the battlefield which pops up a problem as every lord in M&B goes to war.

Furthermore, the marshall feature couldn't fit for some factions while it does for others: Robb commanded his army and took all the decisions, so a marshal for his faction wouldn't be appropriate. But Renly cannot move Highgarden troops without Mace's agreement, so Mace could be Highgarden's marshall.

My suggestion to Sparehawk was this one:
Create phantom leaders: for those factions whose leaders couldn't go to war, place a "faction leader" character in the right location. That one would give tasks, grant fiefs and such stuff as normal. But that character shouldn't exist in the main map inside a war party. Then, another character would command the "Royal war party).

If the character of the novels wasn't able even to rule, like Lord Robert (too young and ill) or Joffrey (Cersei and Tywin were who really ruled the kingdom), create a character who rules in their behalf (Cersei as "Regent Queen" and Lysa as "Regent") who would perform as the above mentioned phantom leaders. Then give the Royal war party leadership to another character.

My ideas:
Dorne: Doran cannot fight, he is old and crippled (phantom leader who rules). Areo or Oberyn lead the Royal war party. This faction doesn't need a marshal as Oberyn or Areo are performing this role commanding the army in Doran's behalf. If still, you wanted a marshal, Lord Yronwood could be.

The Vale: Lord Robert doesn't exist in the mod (too ill to attend to their bannermen). Lysa as regent is the phantom leader on his behalf and owns the Erye. Then, give the Royal war party command to Lord Nestor (High Steward of the Vale) or Lord Yohn (Lord of the greatest minor house sworn to Arryns). This faction doesn't need a marshal as one of Royce lords are performing that role. But if you wanted one, the one who doesn't command the Royal party could be.

Lannister: Joffrey exists in Kingslanding, but does nothing. Cersei (phantom leader) as Regent Queen owns Kingslandig and rules it (or Tyrion as Royal Hand) as Lysa or Doran do. Give Royal army’s command to Jaime and put some Kingsguards as his companions (the others as garrison in Kingslanding, as happenend in the novels). Then, make Tywin the marshal and he would “de facto” rule the faction (again, that happenend in the novels). To create a bigger effect, make Tywin’s parties bigger than Jaime’s. If you aren’t going to add the marshalls feature, placing Tywin as faction leader (but calling him “Lord tywin” in the mod, and Joffrey/Cersei as a simple lord (but calling his/her “King” or “Regent”) would have the same effect without marshals.

Stark: This faction doesn't need a marshal as Robb commanded all the armies. If you want one, Roose Bolton would fulfil this role. After all, Robb gave him half of his army to attack Harrenhal.

Tully: Ser Brynden Tully as both Robb and Edmure trust him and his experience a lot. This faction should have a marshal, as Brynden tells his nephew what to do really often.

Ironmen: Victarion cause he is the Ironfleet commander. This faction could have a marshal cause Lord Balon spends many time in his castle and is Victarion who goes away to piracy and raid.

Stannis: maybe Lord Celtigar (he rules the greatest minor house sworn to Stannis) or Lord Seaworth, his trusted friend. Given the complete authority Stannis has over his realm, a marshal wouldn't fit this faction.

Renly: Lord Mace Tyrell. A marshal Could fit this faction as Renly doesn't command the biggest force of the Tyrell-Renly alliance. You know, he needs Mace’s agreement to move all those Highgarden knights.

Important note: this pattern could be applied to all those minor houses ruled by characters unable to fight (Ladies, old and ill men, little boys). So they (or somebody in their behalf for boys or really old-ill people) could be at their castles giving missions and his heirs or trusted knights could lead their party. An example: Lady Hornwood rules House Hornwood, but she is not a fighter. So, some Hornwood knight (his husband and son are dead) could command his army while she is giving orders and missions in her castle.

By the moment I haven't received a reply from Sparehawk, but I'd like to know your opinions cause if implemented, it would mean tons of work.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 10:12:13 am by Nahadiel »

Agent Griff

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2008, 10:21:27 am »
I for one like the idea, but it may be too much work for what it's really worth. I'd say Marshals should exist for all factions, according to the plan you presented and have said leaders that can't actually take the field and fight, stay in their castle with only a small honour guard. Joffrey, Prince Doran and little Lord Robert would enter this equation. Nothing prevented Renly from fighting, and he would have fought in the battle to relieve Storm's End, if only he had the chance. With those leaders stuck in their castles, however, I'd say keep them there and make them unable to appear in combat. Marshals can handle the role of leading the faction very well, I'd say.

For Stannis' faction, I think Allester Florent should act as Marshal, since the Florents made up pretty much all of Stannis' support, barring the Houses sworn to Dragonstone like House Velaryon or House Celtigar. Allester Florent was Stannis' hand after all.

Ultimately, however, the decision lies with Sparehawk.

Nahadiel

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2008, 10:30:22 am »
Those phantom leaders would never engage the enemy, even if their residence is assaulted, cause they wouldn't exist in the main map, thus don't have a party or a "battle map existence".

I didn't say Renly was unable to fight or he should be a phatom leader, just that should his faction have a marshall, it should be Mace Tyrell. Marshall and phatom leaders are different and sepparated concepts. Not every faction would have phantom leaders and, in my opinion, not every faction should have marshalls. So on, the mod could be done without marshalls so no faction really needs them.

The reason why I say marshall wouldn't fit some factions is cause once a marshall is named it almost replaces the faction leader. Thus is, the marshall gives orders to everylord, included the faction leader and commands all the troops in the battles. So on, he leads those clusters of lords on the main map, rather than the king. I mean, if Stannis named a marshall he would be forced to follow and obey him. I cannot imagine Stannis following Allester's orders.

I for one like the idea, but it may be too much work for what it's really worth.
Do you talk about marshalls or the extra-NPC companions? Cause you were the one wanting those extra characters (and me too) ;).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 10:34:10 am by Nahadiel »

Agent Griff

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2008, 10:51:51 am »
I was referring to the idea as a whole. Since I don't know the least bit about programming and coding, I don't know how difficult that would be to effectively implement. It might be too complex for its own good or it might be quite simple. Sparehawk is the one to ask.

I am always in favour of expanding the number of lords so as to make the mod more book-like and rich in people to kill and fight alongside but, as I said, I don't know if it's easy to do. Your phantom leader concept for example. I didn't understand if you propose to concretely erase these leaders from the game or leave them there in name and appearance only while someone else goes about commanding the faction. Also, is it possible to have a faction without a marshal?

But, now that I look at the matter in perspective, this is pretty much forward thinking, since the next version of the mod will still be released for .903, not .950 or at least that's what I understood from Sparehawk. He doesn't have much of a choice either way, since the module system for .950 hasn't been released yet.

Nahadiel

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2008, 03:42:58 pm »
I am always in favour of expanding the number of lords so as to make the mod more book-like and rich in people to kill and fight alongside but, as I said, I don't know if it's easy to do. Your phantom leader concept for example. I didn't understand if you propose to concretely erase these leaders from the game or leave them there in name and appearance only while someone else goes about commanding the faction. Also, is it possible to have a faction without a marshal?
I don't know who easy or difficult it could be, so I asked Sparehawk for his opinion about it. The phantom leaders concept is an easy one, but I don't explain myself properly  ::). The phantom leader exists, is placed in a castle town and owns it. You can go to where he stands and ask for missions, how goes the war and that questions as normal. But that leader doesn't exist in the main map, he has no party, isn't stationed in a castle or town as garrison... so he cannot fight cause there is no way to engage him. Then, another character would command his army in his behalf.

Example: Doran Martell would exist, would the leader of Dorne and own Sunspear, where he should be placed. You could go to Sunspear and ask him for missions, to give him an oath... and he would be able to grant fiefs and such "political" things a faction leader does.

But there wouldn't be a Doran Martell character in the main map, nor in a party neither in Sunspear or any other place, so it would be impossible to engage him in combat. Then Areo or Oberyn would command the main Dornish war party and perform as the king (arranging those cluster of lords, atacking enemies, sieging...).

It would be like the lords from older versions: they were at castles and cities but didn't came out to fight.

But, now that I look at the matter in perspective, this is pretty much forward thinking, since the next version of the mod will still be released for .903, not .950 or at least that's what I understood from Sparehawk. He doesn't have much of a choice either way, since the module system for .950 hasn't been released yet.
It is, but the idea came as I was gathering the info. I saw those big amounts of people and realized that they should be placed somewhere to avoid factions with 40 armies each one. After that, thinking about which ones would be in Joffrey or Doran's party I realized they couldn't fight. .950's module system hasn't been released yet, yes, but it will be in the future (I hope it is not a far one). Sooner or later this mod will be ported as Sparehawk said. However, it isn't a prior thing to do at the moment, at least as long as the module system remains unreleased.

I wanted to know if the people (and Sparehawk) liked the idea and if it worths the effort it needs... and I couldn't leave it. I could forget it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 03:45:31 pm by Nahadiel »

Jheral

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2008, 04:42:15 pm »
Well, for whatever it might be worth, I think it's a great idea. As it stands, it bothers me a bit to see certain lords leading armies (Tyrion, Joffrey, etc...), as it doesn't really fit with their characters. Might take a bit of work to determine who should or shouldn't be leading armies, or even fighting, and who the marshals should be for the factions (if any). For the latter point, your list seems to fit nicely, Nahadiel, though I would make Tywin a faction leader regardless of whether the marshal feature was added or not.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 04:49:07 pm by Jheral »

GreatJon

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2008, 10:34:40 am »
I don't think Robb Stark or the Blackfish should be part of these hard to kill NPCs. I don't remember any occasion in which Robb fought someone, and the Blackfish is really a good planner and tactician. His experience is his main weapon, not his skill at arms. At least, that's what I think of him. He is rather getting on in years, you know?

Blackfish was famed for his tournament victories as Jamie hints at in the books. He's also a great scout type as we saw when he served under Robb. So yes, Blackfish should be a 'hard to kill' NPC because he is the freaking Blackfish.

As for Robb, Jon Snow says something along that he had the sword but Robb was the better horse/lance. We have to remeber, Jon has a very good sword .


Agent Griff

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2008, 11:42:38 am »
You have to remember, my lord Umber, that the Balckfish isn't 20 or 30 years old any more. He's almost 50 years old by the time the books begin, and that is very old considering the age-limits of that age. Well, we do get to see even older people like Lord Frey or Aemon Targaryenbut they're exceptions that confirm the rule.

Whatever tournament victories he may have won, those are now behind him. Besides, the Blackfish really won his renown during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, in which the last of the Blackfyre pretenders were defeated.

As for Robb Stark, I don't really see why you're comparing him to Jon Snow, since I don't find Jon as a phenomenal swordsman. Of course, if you compare him to what scum the Watch was recruiting when he was around, then of course he comes out as being a great swordsman. But put him next to a real fighter like Qhorin Halfhand and you can get a fine measure of his worth.

This discussion, though, is pretty much a moot point since if all these heroes will be wearing proper plate armour (which is what they should be wearing) then their health won't matter that much, the armour in question making them hard to kill indeed, with or without very good skills.

Still, that doesn't mean certain heroes like Jaime Lannister or Loras Tyrell shouldn't have above-average skills in some areas, like polearms or one-handed weapons (Loras' preferred weapon in war was a morningstar, not a sword; he himself admits his older brother is better with a sword).

Night Ninja

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Re: The lords and knights of Westeros
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2008, 09:46:38 pm »
I'd rate Jon as good, or at least above-average. He's been trained by a veteran knight for years, and he has the speed, stamina and agility to fight. Also, he's a decent rider. These are accomplishments that not all knights can boast of.

Also, according to the illustration on one of the versions of 'A Storm of Swords', mail and plate seems to be more common than actual plate armour. Edmure wears chainmail with some plate here and there. The graphic novel version of 'A Hedge Knight' seems to corroborate that, as you see Ser Lyonal, Ser Humfrey and the Beesbury chap wear mail and plate.

Full plate seems to have been reserved for tourneys by some houses, although you hear many accounts of full plate being worn. I'd say that full plate isn't that common because it's hard to find an armourer who can turn out a decent suit in Westeros.