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Author Topic: Tweaking troops  (Read 61969 times)

Agent Griff

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2008, 12:50:48 pm »
From your post, I understand that you advocate running, correct? Or do you advocate not getting into trouble at all?

Anyway, we've had this discussion before in the Onin No Ran RCM thread so I'll not press on here as well. I just wanted to show everyone just how bad Highgarden Master Archers are at targeting. As if their armour wasn't bad enough, their aim is also agonizingly off. I mean, these guys couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, let alone targeting lone troops from a range upwards of 10 yards. Preposterous I say! This matter deems looking into! Here is a screenshot that demonstrates the aim (or better said, lack of it) of Highgarden Master Archers:



Just shameful. I'd be afraid to show my face on the street after pulling off such a shot. All the other archers would surely laugh and point and say There's the guy that shot the Kingsguard through his visor!.

Disgraceful, innit?

Nahadiel

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2008, 02:20:14 pm »
Also, weapon master (master-at-arms more accurately) in the novels is an specific name referring to the man in a castle whose job is to teach everything about weapons, not only for combat porpoises, for lore-terms too (you are somehow doing this in RCM showing how dangerous can be the smallest knife). I read some parts of OnR RCM thread when you were developing the first version of RCM for this mod and since then I feel more respectful towards your job on RCM. I mean, whatever reason or situation had lead you to face such risks, that made you able to create RCM in a way that nobody around here can achieve, thus your work is invaluable for any mod willing to use RCM.

For those who don't feel self-confident enough to start modelling in this mod and still want to help I'd say that you can gather info. There is no an official SOIAF info gatherer until Sparehawk say so.  ;) So on, gathering info is an easy task as the info is just out there waiting for you, but it's time-consuming and even frustrating cause you have to check tons of data from a given timeframe of the plot. Seeing the huge TODO list, I guess Sparehawk would gladly accept any help.

About Highgarden archers... when I commanded them I thought they weren't earning their wages. But facing them in big numbers made me to change my opinion.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 03:44:09 pm by Nahadiel »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2008, 10:00:26 pm »
In response to the previous question:  What do I advocate for getting out of bad situations?

One, I would advocate not getting into more trouble than necessary.  Don't pick a fight, and if someone seems to be getting emotional over nothing, it's usually best to let him have it.  Much violence is what is known as "territorial violence" - the person only becomes aggressive because they see their rights or space as being invaded.  And even if their claim is absurd, it's usually better not to provoke them... a little alcohol and a short temper is a formula for somebody getting hurt.  Excuse yourself and walk away.  You'll be glad you did.

Two, in the event of unprovoked attacks (i.e. crime), unless it is your job to clean up the mess (like, you're on the SWAT team), usually your only real objective is to get out alive, and with any people who are in your group.  How you best accomplish this depends on the situation ... sometimes the shortest way out is to turn and run like a rabbit, sometimes the best solution is to disable the attacker before he can finish the job.  Sometimes the easiest way out is more involved - like getting to a better place from which to defend your position, or buying enough time to deploy a weapon of your own.  If you are out-numbered and surrounded (common in street crime), the obvious solution may include going THROUGH one or more of them before you can make your escape ... whatever you do, don't stick around to fight any longer than necessary, because you won't last long against superior numbers.  But whatever you finally decide to do, it has to be done immediately, and it has to be immediately effective (i.e. complicated attacks that require several steps to complete, or require your opponent to make certain mistakes, will get you killed).

Most people are really not in that much danger from unprovoked attacks.  Simple safety measures like looking around and steering wide of shady-looking characters will keep most people out of trouble.  However, if your skin color, accent, job, economic status, or whatever, flags you as a target by certain criminal elements, you had better have a couple of backup plans for when things don't go as planned.  (Being a big white guy in China, in my case, means that even with a relatively low crime rate, I am in considerable danger from street thugs figuring I'm a rich tourist.  Fortunately Chinese street thugs are seldom extremely competent, but I still have to stay on my toes to keep them from cornering me.)  (If your job is driving an armored bank truck through a slum, you SHOULD be paranoid.)


Of course, in computer games, they generally set up the situation like it is your job to clean up the mess.  If jobs like that are your taste, police departments and armies around the world are usually recruiting.  They are usually not as dangerous as they are portrayed, because those guys go in armed, and generally knowing exactly what they are up against.  That's a very different situation than suddenly finding yourself on the wrong end of an attempted robbery/homicide.



--------------------------------

On the archer thing, ranged weapons (bows, guns, artillery, whatever) depend on one critical factor - they must disable their targets before their targets can close to attacking range.  A block of archers are deadly at 50 paces ... a block of archers when enemy heavy horse reach them are dog meat.  Same in modern personal defense - a good handgun is a huge advantage at 50 feet away, but if you're laying on the floor with some guy's hand around your throat... then it's as much of a liability as an asset.

Japan responded to this by combining the roles of archer and melee infantry/horse.  While that reduced the effectiveness of their archers somewhat (because it's not cheap to provide armor and melee weapons for all your archers), it did clean up a lot of the traditional weakness of European missile troops.

Either way, archers are only effective if you have enough of them to break the enemy charge. 

Agent Griff

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2008, 02:42:45 am »
Here are some extra details about what soldiers and knights in Westeros might wear. It is pretty detailed with cross-references to the books of the series and the pages where you can actually read about them.

    * Ring-mail armor is worn with boiled leather, and wool in cold weather (I: 2)
    * Weapons such as longswords might be ostentatiously decorated with gemstones and precious metals (I: 5, etc.)
    * Common warriors may use short swords, double-bladed axes, bows, and other weapons (I: 2, 5, etc.)
    * Dirks are one kind of dagger (I: 6)
    * Nothing holds an edge like Valyrian steel (I: 12, 147)
    * Valyrian steel is folded hundreds of times in the process of forging (I: 20)
    * Daggers, swords, and greatswords exist that are made of Valyrian steel (I: 20, etc.)
    * Gilded swords (I: 25)
    * Warhammers are used (I: 36)
    * Bejewelled plate armor (I: 36, 263)
    * Tourney blades have blunted edges (I: 62)
    * Plate armor is worn (I: 74)
    * Helms may have visors, and can be shaped as animal heads or other fanciful shapes (I: 74)
    * The bravos of the Free Cities use slender swords, edged and balanced for the thrust (I: 81)
    * The Dothraki use long, curved swords called arakhs (I: 85)
    * A fine dagger of Valyrian steel, with a dragonbone hilt, would not go unnoticed in a place like King's Landing (I: 114, 115)
    * Intricate suits of scale armor (I: 120)
    * Steel plate of deep forest green, the armor put in the metal itself (a rare skill) rather than enamel or paint (I: 120, 235)
    * Iron chainmail over layers of boiled leather (I: 121)
    * A blued steel sword (I: 124)
    * Spears tipped with iron (I: 178)
    * Arms makers have a mark to proclaim their work on the items they produce (I: 185)
    * Morningstar (I: 188)
    * Padded doublets (I: 219)
    * Wood-and-leather shields (I: 219)
    * Silvered steel plate armor, with jasper and mother-of-pearl ornamentation (I: 232)
    * Some armors are made by men trained in the Free Cities, where some of them know how to put color directly into metal (I: 235)
    * Paint is used on armors (I: 235)
    * Some to claim to still know the spells that must be used to rework Valyrian steel, and some master armorers have revealed their ability to properly reforge it (I: 235. III: 359)
    * Ancient bronze armor, engraved with runes that are supposed to ward the wearer from harm (I: 246)
    * Plate enamelled in many colors (I: 249)
    * Gorgets are fastened to helms and armor (I: 248, 253)
    * Gilded ringmail (I: 261)
    * Horse armor (I: 261)
    * A lance made of golden wood from the Summer Isles, possibly of the fabled goldenheart (I: 261. IV: 6)
    * Tourney lances are made to break (I: 263)
    * Extremely skilled archers can shoot a small target accurately at 100 paces (I: 265)
    * The Braavosi style of fighting is flamboyant (I: 266)
    * Pot helms with narrow slits for the eyes (I: 279)
    * Helms decorated with silken plumes (I: 279)
    * Peasants, clansmen, and brigands might use old spears and swords, sharpened scythes, spiked clubs, and mauls (I: 280)
    * Miniature swords for children (I: 285)
    * Silvered ringmail (I: 309)
    * Gauntlets and greaves (I: 320)
    * Dothraki bows outrange those of the Seven Kingdoms (I: 325)
    * Broadhead arrows (I: 332)
    * Coifs (I: 332)
    * Heavy plate armor over mail and padded surcoat. Large rondels protect the juncture of arm and breast. (I: 365)
    * Skirts of lobstered metal covering to mid-thigh (I: 365)
    * Solid gorgets (I: 365)
    * A helm with a beaked visor (I: 365)
    * Round halfhelms with nasal guards (I: 365)
    * Boots with steel shinguards and gloves sewn with discs of black iron (I: 365)
    * Heavy triangular shields, almost four feet tall, made of heavy oak and studded with iron (I: 366)
    * Engraved swords (I: 366)
    * Oilstones are used to sharpen blades (I: 381)
    * The spears of the City Watch are topped by black iron heads (I: 440)
    * Steel codpieces (I: 446)
    * Pikes (I: 475)
    * Crossbows (I: 508)
    * Outriders tend to be in leather and mail (I: 534)
    * Swords tapered to thrust as well as cut, incised with three fullers (I: 546)
    * Carved stone pommels weighted with lead for swords (I: 546)
    * Bastard swords or hand-and-a-half swords (I: 546)
    * Visored, flat-topped greathelms (I: 556)
    * Pointed steel boots (I: 570)
    * A shield of ironwood, banded with steel (I: 571)
    * Archers wear their quivers on their belts (I: 571)
    * Greathelm with roaring, clawing lion crest all in gold (I: 572)
    * Spears can be thrown (I: 575)
    * Oval shields reinforced with iron studs, used by footmen (I: 577)
    * Burnished, bronzed steel plate (I: 578)
    * Mail gloves (I: 585)
    * Iron cudgels used by the City Watch (I: 600)
    * Black lacquered, gold-filigreed armor (I: 606)
    * The children of the forest used knives, leaf-shaped spear heads, and arrows made of obsidian (which is also known to smallfolk as dragonglass (I: 616. II: 378. IV: 10)
    * Spiked maces (I: 665)
    * Eight-foot war lances of turned ash, banded against splitting (THK: 459, 520)
    * Blunted longaxes for tournaments (THK: 463)
    * Fantastic helmets shaped like birds and beasts, chased with precious metals (THK: 466)
    * A new hauberk of mail, gorget, greaves, and greathelm made by a good smith can cost 800 silver stags (THK: 466)
    * Offering to trade old armor to be salvaged for metal can lower the price by 200 stags (THK: 466, 467)
    * Double-linked chainmail (THK: 481)
    * Greathelms with rounded tops to better deflect blows (THK: 481)
    * 12 foot tourney lances, with pennons on the ends (THK: 491)
    * An elaborate, enamelled crest for a helm (THK: 491)
    * Wealthier knights wear gilded spurs (THK: 492)
    * Tourney lances tipped with golds (THK: 497)
    * Poleaxes (THK: 497)
    * The armor of a Targaryen with black dragons teeth running across the shoulders and back of his breastplate, and the crest of his helm (THK: 516)
    * Poniard daggers (THK: 526)
    * A child's armor (II: 35)
    * A blunted silver longsword with a leaf-shaped blade made for a boy (II: 35)
    * Saddle armor (II: 36)
    * An officer of the City Watch wears a black enamelled breastplate ornamented with four golden disks (II: 65)
    * Men use oilcloth to polish armor (II: 102)
    * A suggested armor made of enamelled plate and gilded scales (II: 173)
    * Scorpions and spitfires are used in the defense of a city (II: 197)
    * Spitfires are a sort of small catapult (II: 231)
    * Sleeveless jerkins covered in scale armor (II: 241)
    * Weapons and armor used by the crannogmen of the Neck: frog spears, bronze knives, woven nets, and round leather shields (II: 241)
    * Siege engines such as mangonels, trebuchets, rams on wheels, and wheeled siege towers covered in rawhide (II: 248, 249)
    * Armor hued and enamelled to a deep cobalt color (II: 249, 251)
    * Winged helms (II: 259)
    * A short-hafted battleaxe, gold scrollwork inlaid in the black steel (II: 266-267)
    * Mauls (II: 267)
    * Throwing axes (II: 287)
    * Ungainly crossbows from Myr that can throw three quarrels at a time (II: 297)
    * A sword belt studded with chunks of black diamond (II: 347)
    * Most freeriders have poor armor, usually made of boiled leather (II: 351)
    * Armor covered in enamelled yellow sunflowers (II: 365)
    * Backplate and breastplate worn over a quilted tunics (II: 365)
    * Padded caps are worn beneath great helms (II: 366)
    * Steel caltrops are used in warfare and the defense of encampments, and can be flung with trebuchets at enemies (II: 375. III: 721)
    * Iron spikes may be set underwater to hamper crossings (II: 411)
    * Gold inlay brightening armor (II: 442)
    * Silken plumes, feathers, and wrought heraldic beasts with gemstones for eyes decorating helmets (II: 442)
    * A red-gold fox on a breastplate surrounded by a circle of lapis-lazuli flowers (II: 443)
    * Fire arrows are used (II: 480)
    * A leather jerkin sewn with overlapping iron disks (II: 488)
    * Trebuchets are made of wood, such as old oak wood, and iron banding to keep them from splitting (II: 520)
    * A leather jerkin studded with iron (II: 526)
    * Gilded mail (II: 593)
    * The pommel of a sword which is a gaping lion with a heart-shaped ruby in its mouth (II: 594)
    * Scorpions shoot out yard-long iron-headed shafts (II: 596)
    * Halberds (II: 597)
    * A long hauberk of black mail (II: 597)
    * A greatsword nearly as tall as a man (II: 597)
    * A visorless pothelm (II: 605)
    * Staves (II: 644)
    * Chainmail armor is cleaned by putting it in a barrel filled with sand and rolling the barrel around so that the sand scours any rust from the iron (II: 650)
    * Warm stockings (II: 659)
    * A spear with a silver-banded haft (II: 665)
    * Dark red enamelled plate with a rounded helm and gorget that are wrought like a screaming flayed man's face and shoulders (II: 678-679)
    * Small bows of wood-and-horn (II: 695)
    * The frog spears of the crannogmen are triple-pronged (III: 104)
    * Quilted jerkins (III: 119)
    * A studded brigantine (III: 144)
    * Pothelm (III: 153)
    * Gloves or gauntlets maid of mail (III: 157)
    * A chain worn from the neck from which a sword hangs (III: 195)
    * Mail hauberks or shirts of sewn rings are very common armor among the lords and soldiers of the North (III: 226)
    * A poleaxe, used for execution (III: 231)
    * Dornishmen, especially those from from the deserts, wrap long bright silk scarves around their helms to ward off the sun (III: 241, 430. IV: 37)
    * A costly scabbard made of cherrywood, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion's-head studs in pure gold with rubies for eyes (III: 358)
    * A sword with a crossguard shape as golden lions' paws with ruby claws unsheathed (III: 358, 60)
    * A Valyrian steel sword, its blade so dark as to be nearly black as is true of most Valyrian steel weapons, but among many of the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lap together, like waves of night and blood (III: 358, 359)
    * Valyrian steel is much lighter than one might expect, because it is the only metal that can be beaten as thin as it is and still retain its strength. The ripples in the steel, a mark of steel that has been folded on itself many thousands of times, is also a hallmark (III: 358, 359)
    * Valyrian steel blades are scarce and costly, yet thousands of them remain in the world, perhaps some two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone (III: 359)
    * Valyrian steel can be colored with great difficulty, but it is stubborn. Some say the old swords remember and do not change easily (III: 359)
    * A gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel (III: 360)
    * A rumored axe of Valyrian steel (III: 408)
    * Dornishmen favor round metal shields and short throwing spears or double-curved Dornish bows they use skillfully from horseback (III: 430)
    * Dornish lords favor armor that is heavily enameled and inlaid with burning copper, shining silver, and/or soft red gold (III: 430, 431)
    * A Dornish lords armor of a shirt armored with overlapping rows of bright copper disks, a high gilded helm displaying a copper sun on the brow, and a round shield of polished metal (III: 431)
    * Bodkin point arrowheads (III: 440)
    * Crossbows are rewound (III: 440, 512)
    * Longaxes have spiked heads (III: 585)
    * A longbow of smooth, thick Dornish yew (III: 616)
    * Valyrian steel can shear right through bronze (III: 619)
    * Wooden turtles on wheels, often covered with hide to protect them from fire, can be used for sieges to protect men assaulting a gate (III: 644, 780, 781)
    * A dagger with a jewelled pommel and inlaid goldwork on the blade (III: 668)
    * A greatsword, six feet of ornate silver bright with runes, its pommel a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull with ruby eyes (III: 682)
    * Valyrian steel is always dark (III: 682)
    * Bolts for scorpions can be prepared with fire, making fire spears (III: 721)
    * A dagger with a pretty pink stone in the hilt (III: 729)
    * A kettle helm (III: 729)
    * The greatsword Dawn is far superior to normal steel (III: 753)
    * Rolling mantlets behind which several archers can hide (III: 779)
    * Dornishmen are fond of spears (III: 794)
    * A spear eight feet long of turned ash, the shaft smooth, thick, and heavy. The last two feet of the spear is steel, a slender leaf-shaped spearhead narrowing to a wicked spike with very sharp edges (III: 794)
    * The joints of plate armor are vulnerbale, with less protected places at elbows, knees, and beneath the arms (III: 794)
    * A padded leather tunic worn beneath armor (III: 795)
    * A chainmail byrnie to protect the upper body (III: 796)
    * A greathelm bolted to a gorget with breaths around the mouth and nose and a narrow slit for vision, with a crest atop of it (III: 797)
    * A spaulder, which is a piece of armor (III: 797)
    * A massive shield of oak rimmed in black iron (III: 798)
    * Jacks, a sort of armor such as freeriders, mounted bowmen, and men-at-arms might wear (III: 841)
    * A lion-headed mace (III: 878)
    * Lord Bloodraven and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight before him carried the Valyrian steel sword named Dark Sister (TSS: 81, 137)
    * Aegon the Conqueror and the kings after him wielded Blackfyre, a Valyrian steel sword, until Aegon IV gave it to his bastard son Daemon on his attainment of knighthood at the age 12 (TSS: 111, 137)
    * A woman's close-fitting suit of scales, enameled green and chased with gold and silver (TSS: 145)
    * A longbow made of the fabled goldenheart wood of the Summer Isles (IV: 6)
    * Dornish style arms, being a copper scale shirt befitting the rank of the captain of House Martell's guard and an iron halfhelm with a cloth wound around it (IV: 37)
    * Knights of the Kingsguard have a ceremonial suit of scale armor made of mother-of-pearl chased with gold (IV: 101)
    * The Targaryens had many weapons of Valyrian steel (SFC)

 

Agent Griff

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2008, 12:12:40 pm »
Here is a very useful thread (and mod) about outfitting faction troops in a uniform way. I hope that's pretty much how Sparehawk plans to do it, since those troops look pretty cool, all decked out in matching equipment. Certainly makes it a hell of a lot easier to identify your own troops during the chaos of battle, especially if you like to play in an immersing style, with troop labelling turned off.

Here's the link:
http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,32830.0.html

Nahadiel

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2008, 05:12:26 am »
Don't know If he is going to intruduce colour patterns, but will introduce banners and sygils for sure. As there is going to be a common troop tree for most factions he is going to make sepparated (and equal) troop trees for each faction so the given equipment would be different.

Marcos182

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2008, 08:19:54 pm »
I"ll be happy as long as i can fight for House Tyrell (if i even choose too) without feeling like a Saracen or something! :) Just seemed like it killed the whole westeros mood.

Agent Griff

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2008, 07:40:10 am »
That's exactly what I felt like too. The first time I played I picked House Tyrell, but was disappointed to see their style of dress. Thankfully, that's one of the things that will get changed with the next versions of ASoIaF.

Nahadiel

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2008, 09:02:02 am »
In next version you will be able to kill any arab looking Dornish who step in your way. ;)

Offline Clegane

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #84 on: October 16, 2008, 12:35:30 pm »
I"ll be happy as long as i can fight for House Tyrell (if i even choose too) without feeling like a Saracen or something! :) Just seemed like it killed the whole westeros mood.
That's exactly what I felt like too. The first time I played I picked House Tyrell, but was disappointed to see their style of dress. Thankfully, that's one of the things that will get changed with the next versions of ASoIaF.

Amongst other things that surely will be changed.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 12:37:25 pm by Clegane »

tommylaw

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2008, 11:04:51 am »
give the Lannisters less cavalry and the north more, since it says in the books that tywin's army was mainly foot and robb's army all horsed

Night Ninja

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2008, 05:07:04 am »
I believe that you have misinterpreted the books.

Robb's portion of the army was mainly horsed because he picked out the bulk of the horsemen from the Northern army. The army that Bolton lead against Tywin's army, and later Duskendale, was composed of the forces that Robb didn't take with him. That army had practically no cavalry with it.

The north also has far less cavalry than the south, mainly because of the difficulty of maintaining warhorses and the like.

tommylaw

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2008, 01:01:32 pm »
just out of curiousity, how many men did the river lords contribute to robb's cause, cos it didnt sound like they did a lot

HXavier

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2008, 09:19:54 am »
just out of curiousity, how many men did the river lords contribute to robb's cause, cos it didnt sound like they did a lot

The best soruce for this king of info is the RPG books. Guardians of ORder published a SOIAF RPG books a few years back. And soon, Green Ronin will be publishing their own version, based on D20 (or the D20 altered version, maybe similar to Mutants and Masterminds). Still, the information of the book should be used ataken a garain of salt, since they claimed that GRRM himself didbn´t gave in the books the hard facts. According to them, what GRRM  said to them is athat the numbers are a POV of each character, so a character may THINK is was a few thousands, another a few hundreds, etc. Still, the book remains the best source, not just for this but for all the information on the books tahat I know, simple because RPG books are "world manuals". 

Night Ninja

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2008, 10:15:38 am »
The RPG book's statistics are supposedly canon until contradicted as they consulted GRRM on them.