Tweaking troops

[Sparehawk]

I've decided to copy here most posts from an old topic, since I assume that we still will discuss this subject a lot in future.

I've thinked a lot about troops' trees tweaking, and wanna to seek your advice about some my ideas.

IMHO, at the moment of game start, not each of Seven Kingdoms have it's own culture. I should say, that only Dorne, Iron Isles and North have own cultures. All other kingdoms share the common westeross culture and main difference in their armies determined mainly by their lords' politics, not by some cultural traditions.
So, it seems to be quite logical to forsake separate unit trees for each kingdom and instead to have a set of basic troops types like militia, mercenaries, knights etc.
Inside of each basic type will be a small (2-4 tiers) upgrade tree, and each kingdom will have an army based on some unique set of that basic types.

For example...

• Basic militia:
  • Peasant. Base unit. Worst leather armor, clubs, knives and pitchforks.
    Upgradeable to spearman or archer.
  • Spearman. Better leather armor, spear, decent combat skills.
    Upgradeable to swordsman or light horseman.
  • Archer. Better leather armor, basic bow, decent combat skills.
    Upgradeable to ranger or crossbowman.
  • Swordsman. Mail armor, shield, sword, good combat skills.
    Upgradeable to plate swordsman.
  • Light horseman. Good leather armor, pike, longsword, horse, good combat skills.
    Upgradeable to heavy horseman.
  • Ranger. Good leather armor, longbow, good combat skills.
  • Crossbowman. Good leather armor, crossbow, good combat skills.
  • Plate swordsman. Basic plate armor, sword or mace, shield, good combat skills.
  • Heavy horseman. Mail armor, pike, longsword, horse, good combat skills.
• Basic knights:
  • Squire. Good leather armor, sword or mace, shield, low combat skills.
    Upgradeable to hedge knight or knight.
  • Hedge Knight. Decent  plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, good combat skills. Not so expensive.
    Upgradeable to veteran hedge knight.
  • Knight. Good plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, good combat skills. Quite expensive.
    Upgradeable to champion.
  • Veteran Hedge Knight. Good plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, good combat skills. Not so expensive.
  • Champion. Better plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, better combat skills. Very expensive.
• Northern militia:
  • Hunter. Base unit. Worst leather armor, crude bow, axe.
    Upgradeable to axeman or archer(basic militia).
  • Axeman. Good leather armor, axe.
    Upgradeable to veteran axeman or light horseman(basic militia).
  • Veteran axeman. Good mail armor, axe.
    Upgradeable to man-at-arms.
  • Man-at-arms. Best mail armor, axe, best combat skills.
• Dornish militia:
  • Dornish spearman. Base unit. Worst leather armor, throwing spears, pike, worst combat skills.
    Upgradeable to veteran spearman or archer(basic militia).
  • Veteran spearman. Good leather armor, throwing spears, pike, good combat skills.
    Upgradeable to dornish horseman or mounted archer.
  • Dornish horseman. Good mail armor, throwing spears, light lance, longsword, horse, good combat skills.
    Upgradeable to heavy horseman(basic militia).
  • Mounted archer. Best leather armor, shortbow, horse, excellent combat skills.
    Upgradeable to veteran mounted archer.
  • Veteran mounted archer. Good mail armor. best shortbow, horse, extraordinary combat skills.
• Iron Isles militia:
  • Сabin boy. Base unit. Worst leather or even cloth armor, knife or axe.
    Upgradeable to sailor.
  • Sailor. Cheap mail armor, sword or axe.
    Upgradeable to raider.
  • Raider. Decent mail armor, sword or axe.
    Upgradeable to manhunter or finger dancer.
  • Manhunter. Good mail armor, sword or axe, cheap horse.
  • Finger dancer. Good mail armor, throwing axes.
• Iron Isles nobility:
  • Ironman Noble. Good mail armor, sword or axe, good combat skills.
    Upgradeable to captain or drowned man.
  • Captain. Plate armor, sword or axe, better combat skills.
    
  • Drowned man. Cloth armor, sword or axe, extraordinary combat skills, ironflash max.

So, Starks army will have northern militia and basic knights without hedge knights. Lannisters - basic militia and basic knights with main focus on hedge knights. Tyrells - the same, but with focus on true knights. Etc.

This is only an example, I haven't spent any time to balancing at all.

How do you think, is this idea usable, or it's better to leave troops' trees as they are?

[Sparehawk]

Looks pretty good so far, it can be tweaked more once people actually play the game.

Note: Ironmen should have very few horseman, which I think you did. Maybe instead of giving manhunters horses, give them only to the nobility. Maybe you can change the Drowned man name to something else. In the book they seemed to be more like priests, dressed in wool with wooden cudgels. Maybe change it to Reaver or something like that.

[Sparehawk]

I've thinked a lot about troops' trees tweaking, and wanna to seek your advice about some my ideas.

IMHO, at the moment of game start, not each of Seven Kingdoms have it's own culture. I should say, that only Dorne, Iron Isles and North have own cultures. All other kingdoms share the common westeross culture and main difference in their armies determined mainly by their lords' politics, not by some cultural traditions.
So, it seems to be quite logical to forsake separate unit trees for each kingdom and instead to have a set of basic troops types like militia, mercenaries, knights etc.
Inside of each basic type will be a small (2-4 tiers) upgrade tree, and each kingdom will have an army based on some unique set of that basic types.

So, Starks army will have northern militia and basic knights without hedge knights. Lannisters - basic militia and basic knights with main focus on hedge knights. Tyrells - the same, but with focus on true knights. Etc.

This is only an example, I haven't spent any time to balancing at all.

How do you think, is this idea usable, or it's better to leave troops' trees as they are?

It would certainly need balancing, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.
I would make a clearer distinction between the lowborn and highborn (so to speak).
Peasant militia, which would be the troops you recruit from villages, should never really become that powerful. Swords, chain mail etc would be very expensive, much more than your usual farmer would be able to afford, and as such, shouldn't really appear that often among them(much less plate armour).

Perhaps something like this (for the 'main' troops. Dorne, the Iron Isles, and in some ways the North, might have slightly different structures):

• Peasant Militia - Conscripts, levies, guardsmen, etc... Lightly armed and armoured, and with little training, compared to the others. No plate, very little chain, mostly armed with spears, crossbows, bows, few swords, etc... Mostly light infantry and archers, but could include some light cavalry as well.
• Men-at-Arms - 'Professional' Soldiers. Better training, arms and armour. For armour, mostly chain, maybe some plate for the heavier troops. Made up mostly of heavier infantry and some cavalry.
• Knights - (For lack of a better word.)Squires, knights etc. These would be the best in terms of both training and equipment. A mixture of heavy chain mail and plate armour, but mostly mounted troops, unlike the men-at-arms tree.

3-5 Tiers in each, with the top tier of one being compareable to the 2nd or 3rd of the next in level, stats, etc.

[Sparehawk]

That actually sounds pretty good. The peasant militia would be the cheapest to recruit and would make up the bulk of the Lords army, around 50% or so. I think they can be recruited from villages only. The men-at-arm should be mercenary troops I think, recruitable at taverns. They should be more expensive but better fighters than the militia. And then the knights, should be recruitable only in castles. They would be the best, but very expensive and make up around 20% of the army.

[Sparehawk]

That actually sounds pretty good. The peasant militia would be the cheapest to recruit and would make up the bulk of the Lords army, around 50% or so. I think they can be recruited from villages only. The men-at-arm should be mercenary troops I think, recruitable at taverns. They should be more expensive but better fighters than the militia. And then the knights, should be recruitable only in castles. They would be the best, but very expensive and make up around 20% of the army.

I'd put mercenaries as a seperate tree, actually. They would be troops of all types, but with dramatically increased recruitment cost and wages compared to regular ones (50-100% higher for essentially the same unit(different name, equipment, etc... but essentially the same type of unit)). Men-at-arms would be recruitable in castles and cities, if that is possible.

[Sparehawk]

That actually sounds pretty good. The peasant militia would be the cheapest to recruit and would make up the bulk of the Lords army, around 50% or so. I think they can be recruited from villages only. The men-at-arm should be mercenary troops I think, recruitable at taverns. They should be more expensive but better fighters than the militia. And then the knights, should be recruitable only in castles. They would be the best, but very expensive and make up around 20% of the army.

I'd put mercenaries as a seperate tree, actually. They would be troops of all types, but with dramatically increased recruitment cost and wages compared to regular ones (50-100% higher for essentially the same unit(different name, equipment, etc... but essentially the same type of unit)). Men-at-arms would be recruitable in castles and cities, if that is possible.

[Sparehawk]

IDK man-at-arms sort of seem like mercenary troops to me. They are professional soldiers, like mercenary's, who basicly go from war to war.

[Sparehawk]

IDK man-at-arms sort of seem like mercenary troops to me. They are professional soldiers, like mercenary's, who basicly go from war to war.

Well, I was thinking more of soldiers serving directly under some lord or another, rather than drifting from war to war. I mean, strictly speaking all professional soldiers could be considered mercenaries, but we still don't think of them as such, do we?  :wink:

[Sparehawk]

The basic idea seems good to me, but I agree that peasants shouldn´t be upgradeable into heavy horsemen, which should be reserved for nobility. The only horsemen (if any) that could come from militia would be some sort of scouts, throwning weapons/hunting crossbows, leather, cheap melee. Instead, the upgrade from spearmen would be pikemen/halbardiers. For reqruitement of nobility solved in a nice way, refer to the TLD influencesystem. You wouldn´t have to go that far, but a good standing with your faction+good renown could make squires/hedgeknights reqruiteable from your lord. The mercs should be crossbow/longbow marksmen, men-at-arms on foot, halbards and hedgeknights.

[Sparehawk]

About troops' trees...

After reading all posts, I'm thinking, that there should be 3 main categories:

• Lowborn militia - could be hired in villages, cheap, bad armor and combat skills even at higher upgrade levels. Have several troops' trees, depending on region (Basic, Dorne, North, Iron Isles)
• Mercenaries - could be hired in taverns, quite expensive, good armor and combat skills. Have several troops' trees, depending on profession (Melee, Ranged, Mounted). Maybe, Brave Companions mechanics could be used here instead of original upgrade mechanics. Or, maybe, Companions could be just another additional tree.
• Warriors of oath - professional soldiers and nobility. Could be hired only from prisoners and in player's own castles/cities. Not so expensive as mercenaries, almost as good in combat as them. Maybe a bit better, but not much. No upgrade trees at all or very small (no more then 2-3 positions) ones.

[BloodLuster]

It's not a tweak for troops it's more estetic what am about to suggest but I thought it could be posted here!

I like to play Mount&Blade without any information in the window (except the Health Bar and the shield condition thingy,that I find rather annoying) including no names for friendly units (it's more realistic I think) so I would like to see the different faction with the different colors.
For example the Starks the only thing I remembered reading about their armor is that they use chain mail armor with grey capes and the Lannisters use a variation of red which I don't know the name in English.
That's my opinion.

[monsterfurby]

Yes, faction soldiers should definitely be "color coded". What I am especially missing is the Rainbow- and Kingsguards' coloured/white cloak. It would make sense to me if, aside from the knights, other troops would also wear the colors of the house they belonged to.

[shevchenko65]

I think Sparehawk said that the problem with that is that he needs someone to provide the graphics for each faction.

[Agent Griff]

I've seen a free modder's art-pack featuring coloured surcoats on this site. Perhaps you'll have use for it in your mod?

Here's a link:

http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,1021.0.html

[monsterfurby]

That would certainly be a step ahead. Also adding in the crest of the houses would not be that much of a problem. I'll see if I find the time to do it.