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Author Topic: Tweaking troops  (Read 61935 times)

Nahadiel

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2008, 01:36:27 pm »
Muslim armies that invaded Iberic Peninsulae wore metal armor indeed. Maybe it is out of the time frame but the Turkish riders known as spahi often wore chainmail with a half-helmet (the other half was covered by mail), bow&arrows and saber.

I'm not saying that dornish warriors shouldn't wear metal armor at all, I'm only talking that plate armor should be not so obvious in Dorne as in central Westeros. But chainmails and even lamellar still could be used quite widely.


Sorry, when I said metal armor I meant chainmail and maybe lamellar, not plate.

Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass  :D

I meant elite or veteran infantry when I said heavy infantry. In the common troop tree heavy armor and experiencie go together for infatry, but I wasnt talking on armors, just weapons. In the novels there isnt any example of Dornish infantry, Oberyn and his spear is the closest I've seen.

Agent Griff

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2008, 01:39:12 pm »
RCM makes all weapons deadly in their own way, even the small kitchen knives! Believe me when I say that a peasant going for your unarmoured face with his small knife can be just as deadly as a knight thundering down on you with a warhammer in his hands. It happened to me once when I was raiding a village in Pirates of Calradia, which has RCM. Some peasant woman slashed my face with a sickle and it killed me in one hit, since I wasn't wearing a helmet. I've never gone to a battle helmless ever since, be it against peasants or full-fledged knights. RCM taught me my lesson.

Once the RCM is applied here as well, I think us cavalry-oriented players will start avoiding any polearm-wielding infantry. Of course, I've seen examples in Pirates of Calradia of Khergit hosts decimating Rhodok hosts of equal number, and we all know that the Rhodoks sure love their spears and pikes. So, I guess the situation can go both ways.

Sparehawk

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2008, 01:41:16 pm »
Muslim armies that invaded Iberic Peninsulae wore metal armor indeed. Maybe it is out of the time frame but the Turkish riders known as spahi often wore chainmail with a half-helmet (the other half was covered by mail), bow&arrows and saber.

I'm not saying that dornish warriors shouldn't wear metal armor at all, I'm only talking that plate armor should be not so obvious in Dorne as in central Westeros. But chainmails and even lamellar still could be used quite widely.


Sorry, when I said metal armor I meant chainmail and maybe lamellar, not plate.

Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass  :D

I meant elite or veteran infantry when I said heavy infantry. In the common troop tree heavy armor and experiencie go together for infatry, but I wasnt talking on armors, just weapons. In the novels there isnt any example of Dornish infantry, Oberyn and his spear is the closest I've seen.

Ah, so then were just misunderstanding each other...

Sparehawk

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2008, 01:43:45 pm »
Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass  :D

Well, that makes sense. I'll think about it.

Sparehawk

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2008, 09:59:56 am »
Well, new versions of troops trees.

Lowborn militia tree:


Spearman - foot soldier with a sword and throwing spears.
Sandrider - the same one, but on horse.
Marauder - foot soldier with a crude shield, one-handed axe and throwing axes.
Manhunter and Raider - the same ones, but with better equipment and better skills.

Mercenaries tree:


3 branches - shooters, infantry and cavalry. Each branch is limited customizable the same way as Brave Companions now. I.e. you can select yourself, will your shooters use bows, crossbows or some sort of throwing weapons, which melee weapon will use your infantry etc.

Sworn troops:


I'm still not sure about exact upgrade levels, don't like some names (especially in mercenaries trees) and there should be huge work on equipment assignment, but in a general way I assume it should be something like this.

Nahadiel

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2008, 12:05:31 pm »
In the novels hedge-knights seem to work for money, but I dont like the idea of putting them with mercenaries despite Bronn achieves it after being really loyal to Tyrion and Lannisters.

I think they would be better at the 25 lvl lancer of sworn troops, wouldn't they? A Lord raises knight from his armies rather than from mercenaries I think. They would still be worse than true faction knights.

About the lowborn troop tree. How are you going to get Dornish&Northern horseman to wear different armors if they are in the same tree as common militia? I mean, if it's the same troop for all factions, aren't they going to wear the same equipment?

ser Jeekim

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2008, 01:07:57 pm »
Good work, we're making progress!
1) For ironmen, I would just rename "Warrior" into "Sailor" and thus cancel out all alternative upgrades from their main troop tree. Would be nice to keep them really distinct. Also, as Manhunters would no longer have horses, maybe rename them "Pirates"?
2) As you said, upgrade levels sure need tweaking. "Sandrider" (a good name, imho) should probably not be superior to "Veteran Knight"? Perhaps sworn troops should start from higher position? Like their 1st tier would be about equal with miliitia's 2nd tier and from there on, the difference would slowly decrease, but in a way that the best castle troop would be a wee better than the best corresponding lowborn troop.
Smth like: Militia (or Recruit?) 1, Footman 8, Swordsman 17, Plate Swordsman 25
Watchman 10, Castle Guard 17, Pikeman 23, Halberdier 30
Sworn Knight 15; Veteran Knight 25, Champion 32.
Mercenaries could remain as is.
3) I did pretty much like the system in 0.4.1 where each faction has an "extra" upgrade level in a certain troop tree (Tyrells: Highgarden Master Archers, Lannisters Lionguards etc). So while keeping your basic system, we could keep this tradition and add one extra strong troop for each faction to have some diversity. That is, if anybody else likes the idea too.

Sparehawk

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2008, 03:39:17 am »
In the novels hedge-knights seem to work for money, but I dont like the idea of putting them with mercenaries despite Bronn achieves it after being really loyal to Tyrion and Lannisters.

I assume, really good and loyal mercenary have a quite real chances to achieve a knight title.

I think they would be better at the 25 lvl lancer of sworn troops, wouldn't they? A Lord raises knight from his armies rather than from mercenaries I think. They would still be worse than true faction knights.

Hedge knights is a mercenaries after all, and this is their main difference from sworn knights. And history of Dunk shows, that it's not so important to born in noble family...

About the lowborn troop tree. How are you going to get Dornish&Northern horseman to wear different armors if they are in the same tree as common militia? I mean, if it's the same troop for all factions, aren't they going to wear the same equipment?

Answer is:
That is a tree for player's troops. Kingdoms will have a copies of units from this tree, with colored coats. If player will obtain any kingdom's unit under his command, that unit will be converted to it's base version.

So, the same troops of different kingdoms will have the same name, skills, weapon and armor stats, but appearance of weapons and armor will differ, depending on faction.

Sparehawk

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2008, 04:16:33 am »
Good work, we're making progress!
1) For ironmen, I would just rename "Warrior" into "Sailor" and thus cancel out all alternative upgrades from their main troop tree. Would be nice to keep them really distinct. Also, as Manhunters would no longer have horses, maybe rename them "Pirates"?

Hm... Not sure I understand you right...
Are you talking about removing upgrade paths to swordsman and veteran axeman for ironborn infrantry?

2) As you said, upgrade levels sure need tweaking. "Sandrider" (a good name, imho) should probably not be superior to "Veteran Knight"? Perhaps sworn troops should start from higher position? Like their 1st tier would be about equal with miliitia's 2nd tier and from there on, the difference would slowly decrease, but in a way that the best castle troop would be a wee better than the best corresponding lowborn troop.
Smth like: Militia (or Recruit?) 1, Footman 8, Swordsman 17, Plate Swordsman 25
Watchman 10, Castle Guard 17, Pikeman 23, Halberdier 30
Sworn Knight 15; Veteran Knight 25, Champion 32.
Mercenaries could remain as is.

Well, I could be wrong, but I've thought that for all non-hero troops, level values means mainly an amount of experience, needed for upgrading to next tier. All equipment, skills and attributes are specified in troops implementation, so troops of equal level could be very differ in total power.

3) I did pretty much like the system in 0.4.1 where each faction has an "extra" upgrade level in a certain troop tree (Tyrells: Highgarden Master Archers, Lannisters Lionguards etc). So while keeping your basic system, we could keep this tradition and add one extra strong troop for each faction to have some diversity. That is, if anybody else likes the idea too.

Not each kingdom's army will have all available troops. This trees are only for player's troops.
So, I assume that Stark's army, for example, will have no rangers or sharpshooters, despite northern militia can upgrade to them. Generally, I assume that each kingdom's army will contain only 6-7 troops types from militia tree.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 06:13:39 am by Sparehawk »

Nahadiel

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2008, 06:28:07 am »
About the lowborn troop tree. How are you going to get Dornish&Northern horseman to wear different armors if they are in the same tree as common militia? I mean, if it's the same troop for all factions, aren't they going to wear the same equipment?

Answer is:
That is a tree for player's troops. Kingdoms will have a copies of units from this tree, with colored coats. If player will obtain any kingdom's unit under his command, that unit will be converted to it's base version.

So, the same troops of different kingdoms will have the same name, skills, weapon and armor stats, but appearance of weapons and armor will differ, depending on faction.

Thanks.

2) As you said, upgrade levels sure need tweaking. "Sandrider" (a good name, imho) should probably not be superior to "Veteran Knight"? Perhaps sworn troops should start from higher position? Like their 1st tier would be about equal with miliitia's 2nd tier and from there on, the difference would slowly decrease, but in a way that the best castle troop would be a wee better than the best corresponding lowborn troop.
Smth like: Militia (or Recruit?) 1, Footman 8, Swordsman 17, Plate Swordsman 25
Watchman 10, Castle Guard 17, Pikeman 23, Halberdier 30
Sworn Knight 15; Veteran Knight 25, Champion 32.
Mercenaries could remain as is.

Well, I could be wrong, but I've thought that for all non-hero troops, level values means only an amount of experience, needed for upgrading to next tier. All equipment, skills and attributes are specified in troops implementation, so troops of equal level could be very differ in total power.

I was wondering the same so I made some test with Hokie TB wonderfull troop editor. It wasn't a seriously made test not a scientific one. ;) But this is what I got:

In your released ISOAF you used renamed troops from Native, didn't you? I just saw that in the editor almost every troop had the basic stats for low level troops but in the game they didn't; they had higher stats. In the other hand, shooters in troop editor had basic stats but not in Strenght in wich they had a minimun value to be able to met the power draw requirements of the bow they were given. Those shooters in the game had the minumun strengh value or higher and the basic stats for Agi, Int and Cha were also raised.

Looking at different troops in the game they had different stats despit they had the same in troop editor. Furthermore, I get really annoyed every time a poor caravan guard kills a high-level mounted troop just cause almost everyone of them wield spears. I checked their equipment in the editor and I was surprised when I saw they had a lot of variety of weapons. Simply the ramdom variation of basic stats usually doesn't grant them the minimun strength to use most of those weapons while higher level toops can wield them. Then I manually give stats to every troop in the game related to its level and made sure the caravan guards had 13 strenght (so they are able to wield heavy weapons for sure) ; I've noticed that now more caravan guards use heavy weapons and less spears. But I have seen almost no variation in the fixed stats I gave the toops.

That's why I think troop level actually does something.

Appart of this, in Native game some factions have a bit higher level troops at some points of troop tree. Maybe Armagan had a reason to do this.

Not related to this, but has to do something with troops: as I was changing the stats I changed some skills. Now almost every end-troop has 1 or 2 in power strike and 2 or 3 in athletics. I wear a Reinforced Ornate armor and I'm out in 3 hits, I feel myself naked when facing infantry carrying 2 handed weapons. Also I decreased Highgarden archers power draw by 2 in top levels but they still deliver me a 30 damage or more per shot. I just say this cause if Ron's RCM is gonna be deadly, you should think carefully troop skills or every fight will be deadliest.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 11:13:00 am by Nahadiel »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2008, 06:52:48 am »
Troop level does change the stats, exactly the same as if the player increased by that many levels - points added to attributes, skills, and weapons appropriately.

And the RCM will make combat fast and deadly, but it also makes armor effective, and huge oversize weapons slow ... so equipment will likely overshadow statistics by a measurable degree, and not always in exactly the way you might expect.  No degree of being tough (hit points, as it were) will let a person survive being hit in the head with an axe (at least not and keep fighting) ... but a good sturdy helmet has a fair chance of turning such a blow.  Also, a "good" weapon might be good at one thing but poor at another (i.e. fast but poor against armor, or good reach and damage but painfully slow to use).  That's where the balance will be changed.

Fortunately, that's an easy balance to fix, just by changing the troops' equipment.

Sparehawk

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2008, 07:22:48 am »
Troop level does change the stats, exactly the same as if the player increased by that many levels - points added to attributes, skills, and weapons appropriately.

Well, this means, that militia(8) will be tougher then militia(1), OK.
But if starting stats of a knight will be much higher, then militia's ones, then even knight(1) will be much tougher then militia(1)...

Anyways, equipments will play quite significant role, especially after RCM including. Militia troops starts with crude leather armor and bad (rusty, unbalanced etc.) weapon, while sworn troops from beginning have mails, plates and good weapons.

ser Jeekim

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2008, 03:33:57 pm »
@Sparehawk:  yes, I meant removing axemen and swordsmen paths from Ironborn troop tree, so they would stand out more from other factions and not have similar troops. It seems for me, that 3 separate paths of heavy infantry would be overkill. But then, I don't really know what you had in mind for all these units - maybe they have fundamentally different roles on the battlefield I don't see. So the decision is yours, ofc.

I perceived that the troops gain exp and levels the same way player does, but I did not think that there could be a difference in starting stats :) :-[. I assumed, that the only difference between Knight (1) and Militia (1) would be equipment... Mind you, I've never tried to mod M&B and in vanilla I believe all troops start out as recruits... That of course means you are kindly asked to disregard my "tweaking" proposals  :green:

As a side note, it makes me crazy if my select "talk" with some of my elite troops and see that my level 30 rank and file soldiers have something like 20 charisma and 9 strength! And instead of power strike or ironflesh the suckers have learned skills like inventory management or leadership...  Probably that is so to balance things out, since the player might decide to learn these too and else he could become underpowered.... but it still feels such a waste to me every time:!:

Also... a strange thing is, that after I uograded into 0.4.2, my level 36 character, wearing pretty much best armor in game (not counting Rhaegar's), had his lights knocked out in two of the very first battles I fought! I attacked Grayjoy Raiders all on my own... and out of the blue, some Finger Dancer hits home and does 97 damage to me?! Ok, escaped, healed, and thought that maybe a scouting party will be an easier picking... and what do you know - some jerk of a Marauder hits me with and axe for 78 damage! Haven't dared to play on since :lol: Come on - I used to take these scouting parties just for appetizers... I wonder, what would've happened, had I not been wearing greathelm and reinforced plate with matching greaces and gauntlest?!

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2008, 05:35:17 pm »
The armor made of paper is a Native issue.  It basically adds up that armor does nothing, weapons do not much more, but power strike and speed bonus do everything.  RCM mostly fixes that (minus the occasional game engine bug) ... if I can ever get the bloody thing to work.  (Maybe by tomorrow.)

naptha

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Re: Tweaking troops
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2008, 11:12:32 am »
I also liked the idea of sworn troops having the extra tier as in 0.4.1. I felt this accurately reflected the dedicated resources only available to recognized masters of a large organization... something not available to say, mercenaries or bandits. Could Lannisters field Tournament-level knights to the battlefield nearly unmatched in skill and equipment? Absolutely. Could a top tier bandit or mercenary (hedge-knight) match this? Not so much.