Author Topic: source's relating to the crusades  (Read 6887 times)

Texous

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source's relating to the crusades
« on: March 23, 2008, 08:54:35 PM »
hey all im new to these forums but not new to the mount and blade world, this mod really caught my eye so id thought show my support.
just wanting to know if anyone knew of any good books, websites, movies relating to the time period of this game or just the crusades in general.
thought it mite help keep interest in this mod not just for me but others waiting for a release.

Tex :)

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: source's relating to the crusades
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 09:43:06 PM »
These will give you some reading material.  Some primary sources and translations thereof.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html

http://www.the-orb.net/encyclo.html


Again, these are collections of primary sources - you'll have to do a little research to figure out what everything means.  They're not the 5th grade history book material that spoon-feeds you what someone else thought was important.  But if you're really interested, primary sources equal the real thing ... they're real pages from that place and time.

War_B*stard

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Re: source's relating to the crusades
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 04:09:24 AM »
Primary sources are all good and well, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to read other people's opinions on the subject. So........

If your're looking for a general overview of the period then I would recommend 'The Oxford History of the Crusades', http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=72527140. It's not a particularly big book and it's scope is rather broad (going as far as having sections on songs and architecture of the time), so it suffers somewhat from being rather brief.

Steven Runciman's 'A History of the Crusades' is fairly encyclopaedic and really well written. His account of the crusaders is a little less than glowing, with them usually described as uncultured yobs on the rampage (not exactly balanced but it's a view he is consistent with).

If any of the above doesn't take your fancy, I'm sure there are various Ospeys full of pretty pictures. I'm not really aware of any films about the crusades (other than Kingdom of Heaven, I saw about 20 minutes of that film, then found something better to do).


« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 04:13:07 AM by War_B*stard »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: source's relating to the crusades
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 05:58:58 AM »
"Kingdom of Heaven", while mildly entertaining as fiction, took huge liberties with the history.  Between using real names of people but hugely screwing up their actual roles, and bizarre quirks in the combat sequences (where was that huge flat spot outisde the walls of Jerusalem supposed to be, anyway?), it's certainly not what you would want to use for study material.  I mean, the guys who were supposed to be Templars were clearly wearing a French Crusader's Cross, and the actual colors of the Templars were nowhere to be seen... it would be hard to screw up the costumes much worse than that, short of dressing them up like samurai or something.  However, it might make for a fun party game - "pick out as many historical errors or logical absurdities as you can in this two-minute clip".

And yeah, if you just want the 5th grade version, lots of pretty pictures in the Osprey books... and occasionally they will point you to some good research, although I haven't seen the ones on the Crusades period, so no promises there.  For a little better material, try the bookstores of local colleges - see what their profs are using for university-level courses on the subject.  (That will both give you the name of the book and a place to buy it, and you might get lucky and pick up a used copy at substantial discount.)  Of course, college-level books are often written by someone trying to say something new and clever, so it's best to try several different ones and/or do some research on the authors, to make sure you're getting the mainstream research instead of somebody's pet hypothesis (i.e. Runciman's work, previously mentioned - usable if you know his bias, confusing if you thought it was the mainstream opinion).

War_B*stard

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Re: source's relating to the crusades
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 06:58:06 AM »
However, it might make for a fun party game - "pick out as many historical errors or logical absurdities as you can in this two-minute clip".
Drink when you see historical innaccuracy or anachronism!

(i.e. Runciman's work, previously mentioned - usable if you know his bias, confusing if you thought it was the mainstream opinion).
Agreed. But despite his clear bias his books are still enjoyable if just for the style of writing. It's a rare suprise to find a history book in which one can actually enjoy, rather than just comprehend, the authors words. The best example to my mind is GM Trevelyan's 'A Shortened History of England' (be warned, it's a product of Edwardian England but probably the most eloquent rendering of history you're likely to find).

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: source's relating to the crusades
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 08:28:29 AM »
Although anachronism wasn't really the big problem in "Kingdom of Heaven", you wouldn't want to do a "drink when you see someting historically inaccurate, infeasible, illogical or stupid" game.  You would die in two minutes, even if you were drinking water.


I should write some history books, just so they would be entertaining.  I would be like, "So they charged the enemy line, employing basically the same well-tested strategy used by billy-goats everywhere."  "So Rome, for the second time, tried to form a Triumvirate ... since the dramatic failure of the previous one had well established that the whole idea was dumber than snake mittens."  "So they went onto the field and bashed each other with swords until pretty much everybody on both sides was dead or injured, after which both sides went back and loudly declared that they had won."  "And so Sisera, commander of the armies of Jabin, king of the Canaanites, during his battle with Israel on the flood plain of the river Kishon, discovered an important military principle that would shape strategy for centuries:  Chariots don't float."

On second thought ... maybe it's better if I don't.

War_B*stard

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Re: source's relating to the crusades
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2008, 09:32:28 AM »
On second thought ... maybe it's better if I don't.
Don't rule it out. Sounds like you've come up with a sort of Gonzo historical commentary style, you never know, there might be something in it.

Agent Griff

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Re: source's relating to the crusades
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 01:14:38 PM »
I saw Kingdom of Heaven. The movie messed it up big time on the historical front but most other things I found acceptable, according to my tastes. The costumes were pretty accurate, last I heard, and I've never been to Jerusalem to know if there's a flat plain in front of it or not. My father has do, so I should ask him. The acting was also somewhat stiff but other than that I liked it.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: source's relating to the crusades
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 05:20:41 PM »
There is not a big flat plain outside the main gates of Jerusalem ... Jerusalem sets on top of Mount Moriah, the most God-awful looking pile of stones you could imagine.

The costumes were mostly the right period, but still all screwed up.  French Crusader's Cross for Templar uniform was the most glaring, but everything else was a little off too.

And yeah, the acting was somewhat stiff ... the way Ramses I is somewhat of a stiff.

---------------------------

and it's not just history ... I have a gonzo commentary style about everything.  My college classes go that way.  Just last week I was explaining the process of really bad people giving bribes to government people in exchange for favors ... in China, they call it "government corruption" ... in the United States, they call it "democracy".


Texous

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Re: source's relating to the crusades
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 11:08:44 PM »
thanks for the advise. i have seen kingdom of heaven really liked it although there is a fair amount of historical errors. but it is a movie! :).
I'm trying to find some books set in this time period either fiction or historical, don't mind wich just something to keep interest.
thought it would be a nice change to talk about something different. as allot of the the other topics i looked at always seem to turn into people asking Raz for a release date.
keep up the good work.