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Author Topic: (old) TLD Help needed: Models and Voices  (Read 493883 times)

Lorodim

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #120 on: August 02, 2007, 02:21:37 pm »
then afro americans?

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #121 on: August 02, 2007, 07:47:46 pm »
then afro americans?

I don't think there is such a thing as an "Afro-American" accent.  Regardless of race in North America, educated people tend to have pretty standard English, and the uneducated tend to have strong accents characteristic of their region.  The black "Jive" dialect for any particular city is the same gutter dialect that you will hear in the slums of other ethnic groups in that city.

But I somehow don't think gutter slang would work out too well in a LOTR theme.  When the orc merchants start out with "Whaashu wan? ... Whaashu look'n at?   Ha ' chu  got uh problem?"

No.

Sunhawken

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #122 on: August 02, 2007, 08:18:27 pm »
Can someone please tell me what a dunnish sounds like?

Stemmers?

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #123 on: August 02, 2007, 09:03:58 pm »
then afro americans?
I don't think there is such a thing as an "Afro-American" accent.  Regardless of race in North America, educated people tend to have pretty standard English, and the uneducated tend to have strong accents characteristic of their region.  The black "Jive" dialect for any particular city is the same gutter dialect that you will hear in the slums of other ethnic groups in that city.

Uh...wrong on both points. I hate to break it to you, there is such a thing as an "African-American" dialect and it is very distinctive. This is coming from somebody who lives in a city and studies linguistics. It has some easily identifiable grammatical elements and phonological changes that set it apart from "standard" English, and you can be sure that it's different than any of the other "gutter" dialects in the city, never mind that you're using a pejorative term. Look here if you need more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English

There's always some overlap of course, there always is between dialects in close proximity to each other, but there's no way you're telling me that a poor white Italian living in South Philadelphia speaks the same way as the black guy that lives in the apartment upstairs. It's just blatantly untrue.

You'd also be surprised at how differently educated people from different parts of the country speak. Americans find it hard to hear, but there's a difference between an educated Midwestern accent and a Northeastern accent, for example. Educated people use words that aren't "standard" English all the time, even if they don't know it -- ask an educated person in California what it means to "putz around", and see them look at you funny, then ask an educated person in Berks County, PA. It's a loan word from Pennsylvania German (or Yiddish, depending on whom you ask, but the meaning is VERY different  ;)), but none of the people in the area would know it because they've heard it used all their lives.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 09:27:37 pm by Stemmers? »

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #124 on: August 02, 2007, 09:55:41 pm »
I know what you're saying ... I'm from Oklahoma, myself (even though I haven't been back there in a while).  Some of the local words, especially place names, come from Cherokee or Seminole - and people from other parts of the country think everyone in Oklahoma speaks a dialect of Martian.

I just think that the race issue is highly over-rated in linguistic studies.  I know too many people of various races who sound too much alike - the better educated ones sounding like better educated people of other race groups, and the uneducated sounding too much like other uneducated people.  In Tulsa, Oklahoma, the black and white people sound very much the same, with the exception of tone of voice (caused by size and shape of the throat and tongue -  genetic variations, physical size, etc), which is usually not statistically very much, and the education level of the speaker.  The Spanish-speaking community sounds different, because of the influence of their other language, but that is not a race issue (as Spanish-speaking people tend to be ethnically diverse as well).

The variations from region to region (specific word use or details of pronunciation) strike me as relatively minor and unrelated to the question.  Every region has a few words that are unique to that area, in any language anywhere in the world.  Seldom do these differences add up to enough to represent a noticeable accent difference in short segments (as we would need for voice clips for a mod).  English does not really have any major "dialects" (that are uniformly incomprehensible to people of other regions), and although some of the regional accents are strong, it is minor compared to areas that really do have regional dialects (like China, where I live now).

Now, groups of immigrants who bring their own language will have a noticeable accent.  That is directly associated with the other language, just as people learning a second language will always have an accent.  But this does not really apply to the "Afro-American" referred to in the earlier post - most of them have been English-speaking for generations.

I suspect that grouping accents by race is something that was done to cover for various inequalities and racial conflict ... because it does not happen everywhere.  And I would prefer if they were not grouped by race - I have some extremely black friends who do not sound like that, and although they are good-natured about this sort of thing, I feel offended for them.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the earlier topic - accents taken from the corruption of any language in poor urban environments are not going to be suitable for the tone of TLD.  Any attempt to copy these is going to come off as racist and insulting.  Foreign-sounding accents for people who should have their own languages would be one thing (since language problems are a fact of life).  Severely corrupted variations of the common speech are going to communicate something that I don't think we want to say.

Stemmers?

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #125 on: August 03, 2007, 12:43:11 am »

I just think that the race issue is highly over-rated in linguistic studies.  I know too many people of various races who sound too much alike - the better educated ones sounding like better educated people of other race groups, and the uneducated sounding too much like other uneducated people.  In Tulsa, Oklahoma, the black and white people sound very much the same, with the exception of tone of voice (caused by size and shape of the throat and tongue -  genetic variations, physical size, etc), which is usually not statistically very much, and the education level of the speaker.  The Spanish-speaking community sounds different, because of the influence of their other language, but that is not a race issue (as Spanish-speaking people tend to be ethnically diverse as well).


I have to disagree with you there. Language is simply too complex to be seen as simply a socioeconomic issue. The fact is, language is important to developing ethnic consciousness. Think about it -- most countries have a dominant national language that contributes to their sense of shared identity, and in politically stable areas borders tend to run roughly divide one group of language speakers from another. There's a question of causality, whether political power tends to shape languages or whether languages tend to divide people politically, but I think in the age of nationalism, it's reasonable to assume there's at least some of the latter going on.

In the United States, especially, where race is (unfortunately) so intrinsically related to social class, language tends to motivate racial consciousness quite strongly. I don't know how it works in Oklahoma, but in inner-city African-American communities, language is extremely closely related to racial identity. I'll give a personal example: my girlfriend, who is black, lived in Chicago for most of her life. Her mother, though poor and relatively uneducated, was a very proper woman and taught her to speak standard English. in school, she was stigmatized by most of the other children, who thought she "talked like a white girl", and as a result she's developed very mixed feeling about her closeness with the black community. In her case, because she didn't speak the same native dialect as the other people of her race, she was seen by other African-Americans as "not fully black". It's a side of racism you don't often see: communities become so insular that any attempt to assimilate into the society at large is seen as a betrayal of your roots and met with extreme hostility.


The variations from region to region (specific word use or details of pronunciation) strike me as relatively minor and unrelated to the question.  Every region has a few words that are unique to that area, in any language anywhere in the world.  Seldom do these differences add up to enough to represent a noticeable accent difference in short segments (as we would need for voice clips for a mod).  English does not really have any major "dialects" (that are uniformly incomprehensible to people of other regions), and although some of the regional accents are strong, it is minor compared to areas that really do have regional dialects (like China, where I live now).

Now, groups of immigrants who bring their own language will have a noticeable accent.  That is directly associated with the other language, just as people learning a second language will always have an accent.  But this does not really apply to the "Afro-American" referred to in the earlier post - most of them have been English-speaking for generations.


First off: there are no universally accepted criteria from distinguishing a "dialect" from a "language". From what I've heard about the various forms of Chinese, and how they are mutually unintelligible, I think that most linguists would classify them as entirely separate (although related) languages.

African-American Vernacular English is clearly mutually intelligible with English, so most linguists wouldn't classify is as a separate language. But the differences between standard English and AAVE are significant. Not only are there differences in phonology (pronunciation), there are also differences in grammatical structure. For example, AAVE often drops the copula (in English, the verb "to be") between words, so that something like "I am hungry" becomes "I hungry". In fact, the entire tense/aspect system is completely different from standard English. Read the article if you need a full rundown, but AAVE is about as strong a case for a real dialect that there is in American English.


I suspect that grouping accents by race is something that was done to cover for various inequalities and racial conflict ... because it does not happen everywhere.  And I would prefer if they were not grouped by race - I have some extremely black friends who do not sound like that, and although they are good-natured about this sort of thing, I feel offended for them.

--------------------------------------------------------------


I agree with you that there are many times when grouping by race is entirely inappropriate. But I do not think that linguists have any vast right-wing conspiracy to "cover up for various inequalities and racial conflict". It is a simple fact that AAVE is spoken almost exclusively by African-Americans, and the fact that the linguistic community refers to it in that way is a result of that fact.

Of course, not every black person speaks the dialect. There are of course many African-Americans who choose to speak standard English, as you and I both have mentioned. But that fact that you are embarrassed about the stereotype shows the negative attitude that our society has toward the AAVE dialect in the first place, and I think reflects the underlying racial tensions in American society in general. The fact that AAVE even exists is a direct result of slavery and the fact that blacks were a socially isolated group up until the middle of the 20th century. So I don't think you can blame the linguists for highlighting a reality which is caused by the prejudices of American society.

I would also like to point out that many educated African-Americans do choose to speak AAVE, even though they know how to speak standard English perfectly well. Many see it as a positive part of their cultural identity. It all boils down to lifestyle, personal choice and the people you tend to hang out with.


Back to the earlier topic - accents taken from the corruption of any language in poor urban environments are not going to be suitable for the tone of TLD.  Any attempt to copy these is going to come off as racist and insulting.  Foreign-sounding accents for people who should have their own languages would be one thing (since language problems are a fact of life).  Severely corrupted variations of the common speech are going to communicate something that I don't think we want to say.


I do agree with you in spirit -- anything with racially charged undertones is inappropriate for this mod -- but I am concerned by your choice of words. There is *no* evidence that any dialect is a "corruption" of the common speech.  That's a myth perpetuated by pedagogues that reinforces the same prejudicial attitudes that you are claiming to be against. By writing them off as "debased" forms of English, people tend to minimize the fact that dialects like AAVE often have a long history of development that is quite different than standard English and are important to their community of speakers.

/rant over
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 12:50:30 am by Stemmers? »

Sunhawken

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #126 on: August 03, 2007, 02:00:08 am »

I just think that the race issue is highly over-rated in linguistic studies.  I know too many people of various races who sound too much alike - the better educated ones sounding like better educated people of other race groups, and the uneducated sounding too much like other uneducated people.  In Tulsa, Oklahoma, the black and white people sound very much the same, with the exception of tone of voice (caused by size and shape of the throat and tongue -  genetic variations, physical size, etc), which is usually not statistically very much, and the education level of the speaker.  The Spanish-speaking community sounds different, because of the influence of their other language, but that is not a race issue (as Spanish-speaking people tend to be ethnically diverse as well).


I have to disagree with you there. Language is simply too complex to be seen as simply a socioeconomic issue. The fact is, language is important to developing ethnic consciousness. Think about it -- most countries have a dominant national language that contributes to their sense of shared identity, and in politically stable areas borders tend to run roughly divide one group of language speakers from another. There's a question of causality, whether political power tends to shape languages or whether languages tend to divide people politically, but I think in the age of nationalism, it's reasonable to assume there's at least some of the latter going on.

In the United States, especially, where race is (unfortunately) so intrinsically related to social class, language tends to motivate racial consciousness quite strongly. I don't know how it works in Oklahoma, but in inner-city African-American communities, language is extremely closely related to racial identity. I'll give a personal example: my girlfriend, who is black, lived in Chicago for most of her life. Her mother, though poor and relatively uneducated, was a very proper woman and taught her to speak standard English. in school, she was stigmatized by most of the other children, who thought she "talked like a white girl", and as a result she's developed very mixed feeling about her closeness with the black community. In her case, because she didn't speak the same native dialect as the other people of her race, she was seen by other African-Americans as "not fully black". It's a side of racism you don't often see: communities become so insular that any attempt to assimilate into the society at large is seen as a betrayal of your roots and met with extreme hostility.


The variations from region to region (specific word use or details of pronunciation) strike me as relatively minor and unrelated to the question.  Every region has a few words that are unique to that area, in any language anywhere in the world.  Seldom do these differences add up to enough to represent a noticeable accent difference in short segments (as we would need for voice clips for a mod).  English does not really have any major "dialects" (that are uniformly incomprehensible to people of other regions), and although some of the regional accents are strong, it is minor compared to areas that really do have regional dialects (like China, where I live now).

Now, groups of immigrants who bring their own language will have a noticeable accent.  That is directly associated with the other language, just as people learning a second language will always have an accent.  But this does not really apply to the "Afro-American" referred to in the earlier post - most of them have been English-speaking for generations.


First off: there are no universally accepted criteria from distinguishing a "dialect" from a "language". From what I've heard about the various forms of Chinese, and how they are mutually unintelligible, I think that most linguists would classify them as entirely separate (although related) languages.

African-American Vernacular English is clearly mutually intelligible with English, so most linguists wouldn't classify is as a separate language. But the differences between standard English and AAVE are significant. Not only are there differences in phonology (pronunciation), there are also differences in grammatical structure. For example, AAVE often drops the copula (in English, the verb "to be") between words, so that something like "I am hungry" becomes "I hungry". In fact, the entire tense/aspect system is completely different from standard English. Read the article if you need a full rundown, but AAVE is about as strong a case for a real dialect that there is in American English.


I suspect that grouping accents by race is something that was done to cover for various inequalities and racial conflict ... because it does not happen everywhere.  And I would prefer if they were not grouped by race - I have some extremely black friends who do not sound like that, and although they are good-natured about this sort of thing, I feel offended for them.

--------------------------------------------------------------


I agree with you that there are many times when grouping by race is entirely inappropriate. But I do not think that linguists have any vast right-wing conspiracy to "cover up for various inequalities and racial conflict". It is a simple fact that AAVE is spoken almost exclusively by African-Americans, and the fact that the linguistic community refers to it in that way is a result of that fact.

Of course, not every black person speaks the dialect. There are of course many African-Americans who choose to speak standard English, as you and I both have mentioned. But that fact that you are embarrassed about the stereotype shows the negative attitude that our society has toward the AAVE dialect in the first place, and I think reflects the underlying racial tensions in American society in general. The fact that AAVE even exists is a direct result of slavery and the fact that blacks were a socially isolated group up until the middle of the 20th century. So I don't think you can blame the linguists for highlighting a reality which is caused by the prejudices of American society.

I would also like to point out that many educated African-Americans do choose to speak AAVE, even though they know how to speak standard English perfectly well. Many see it as a positive part of their cultural identity. It all boils down to lifestyle, personal choice and the people you tend to hang out with.


Back to the earlier topic - accents taken from the corruption of any language in poor urban environments are not going to be suitable for the tone of TLD.  Any attempt to copy these is going to come off as racist and insulting.  Foreign-sounding accents for people who should have their own languages would be one thing (since language problems are a fact of life).  Severely corrupted variations of the common speech are going to communicate something that I don't think we want to say.


I do agree with you in spirit -- anything with racially charged undertones is inappropriate for this mod -- but I am concerned by your choice of words. There is *no* evidence that any dialect is a "corruption" of the common speech.  That's a myth perpetuated by pedagogues that reinforces the same prejudicial attitudes that you are claiming to be against. By writing them off as "debased" forms of English, people tend to minimize the fact that dialects like AAVE often have a long history of development that is quite different than standard English and are important to their community of speakers.

/rant over

Right On. I agree with you! Stemmers.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #127 on: August 03, 2007, 03:07:59 am »
We're still off-topic, but traditionally a "dialect" is different from a regional accent in that a dialect is not mutually comprehensible with other dialects.  Cantonese, for example, is a dialect of Chinese because the grammar and written forms are identical, but when spoken, they sound like totally different languages.  English does not really have any of those, and if it did, it would not do the mod-making world any good ... as the majority would not be able to understand a word of it.

I still think the race issue is over-played in linguistics ... low socio-economic groups will always mistrust the more formalized speech patterns of the upper classes, in any language or culture.  The fact that this is associated with race in the United States speaks poorly of U.S. history in dealing with race issues, but the issue is more universal than North American English.  White hillbillies will ridicule people for using formalized speech just as inner-city blacks will ... their choice of insults may be different, but the tone will be the same - that those who use formal grammar are to be considered oppressors of their group (white people, rich people, whatever the local code word is for their perceived oppressors).  Those who wish to associate with these lower classes must change their speech patterns in order to be socially acceptable in that community - regardless if the community is U.S. inner city blacks, or U.S. white southern rednecks, or Miao minority in central China.  The actual impact of ethnic background is a detail (and possibly a critical detail if you live there), but not the cause.  If it was the cause, the pattern would not repeat with other ethnic groups.

And "corruption" of a language, in this case, refers to changes in speech patterns which will necessarily lower that group's standing in the eyes of the majority or the dominant system.  Language communicates both ideas and the status of those speaking it ... and if a particular language use clearly communicates a status that is widely perceived negatively, then it may be considered a corruption of the language - i.e. it indicates poor education or low social status, and will create prejudice against the speaker by a majority of speakers of that language.  That would be a usage from sociology rather than linguistics (two fields that overlap more often than not, but which are not very compatible).  It doesn't make one "right" and the other "wrong" - but it does make one poor, mistrusted, and unemployable ... which hurts a lot more than being wrong.

But back to the point ... we certainly cannot use any accents which will play to racial, social, or economic prejudices, unless it is done of a group which widely considers the issue a joke.  For example, a hillbilly accent from the American southeast would be acceptable, because even hillbillies make jokes about hillbilly accents.  The Scottish are rather proud of not being English, so using their accent for a different tribe would probably not anger too many of them, provided the tribe was not shown in too negative a light.  An inner-city poor accent (from any particular region, race or type of community) cannot be used, as it will be seen as a racial attack on groups known to be very sensitive about such things.

Such is the nature of making a project like this public.

DaBlade

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #128 on: August 03, 2007, 09:47:34 am »
I think we'll need a separate topic for linguistics discussion. We need to be able to clearly see if someone offers help with models or voices.

Offline Ron Losey

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #129 on: August 03, 2007, 09:58:38 am »
Enough on linguistics, just so long as nobody decides to do a speech pattern that some people will find offensive.  That was the only critical point when this off-topic got started.


Stemmers?

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #130 on: August 03, 2007, 05:36:55 pm »
I think it would make Tolkien proud if we had a section set aside for linguistics discussion  :P.

Theodred son of Theoden

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #131 on: August 05, 2007, 03:26:20 pm »
I  gladly want to help and ready to present more  Rohirrim, Elven and Orcish variety of phrases...

Again, my main principle- remain true to what Tolkien written and what he intended(judging by his letters and numerous explaining notes)

 voices in battle add a great deal to the general atmoshpere, and while all voice-acted phrases that TLD has at the moment are definetly good, the amount of voice-actoing is insufficent, to my mind.

Especially  endless"victory for the Eye" mantra get on my nerves latley.

So here are a coulpe of ideas that immideatly came to my mind- we know that Orcs called Rohirrim "Strawheads" in mockery...

So, some "Slaughter all strawheads!" or "Death to Stawhead scum!" will add small but nice, fitting detail.

The same with Gondorians...Orcs called them "tarks"....

And we know that Orcs love men flesh, and like to yell about it here and there.:)

So "Heya, boyz, we'll taste a men flesh tonight, rip them and eat them etc."...Evil should look and sound evil.


I would be glad if my service is needed...



« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 03:27:59 pm by Theodred son of Theoden »

Offline Merlkir

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #132 on: August 19, 2007, 12:03:08 pm »
ATTENTION! if anyone wants to help, read Concept Art thread. No special skills are needed. I just need your time and having the mod would certainly help!
Here's my gallery: http://merlkir.deviantart.com/

I'm now painting and drawing commissions. I'll paint portraits, pets, girlfriends, favourite characters..you name it. Send me a PM if interested ;)

Offline Zenosknight

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #133 on: August 27, 2007, 05:02:38 pm »
Okay, so basically, I'm allowed to use ALL concept art as a reference to making stuff?
And if I finish, who do I send it to?  ???
I just learned how to model today, so I might not be that good in it, but I could give it a shot ><!


Following Highelfs tutorial, I was able to improvise this thingy-ma-bobber



It's my first, might not be too good, but practice makes perfect, right? ^^"
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 05:48:07 pm by Zenosknight »

Offline Zenosknight

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Re: TLD: Help needed: Models and Voices
« Reply #134 on: August 28, 2007, 09:43:48 pm »


Was I supposed to ask for permission first?  :-[

This is the best I could do though, I don't know how to model mail ><!
bleh, I didn't notice that clip at the temples ><!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 09:46:28 pm by Zenosknight »