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Messages - hayate666

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Too bad you changed damage types and damage a shield can take from arrows. It has nothing to do with realism as far as I can tell, because you effectively made the difference between armor/unarmored a lot less important when getting run over by horses and getting hit by bows and spears, for no other reason then an annoyance that the damage type was C instead of P or B.

Both values half the amount of armor you're wearing and should be used very sparingly because of it. It's just the shitty way damage is handled in Mount and Blade. Pierce and blunt damage represent major armor piercing capabilities, way too much for a regular spear or arrows. (Perfect for magic weapons though)

You can't balance them correctly because of this. I have noticed I can easily shoot down heavily armored horsemen when I'm using your mod. That shouldn't happen. I should get run over for trying. I'm not using Elven uranium tipped arrows as far as I can tell.  ;)

Pierce and blunt will always do either too much against armor or too little versus unarmored. With the logic you're using  horses have armor piercing hooves and teeth now? Shields with a hail of arrows in them are still able to be wielded effectively?

I think I have stated my opinion clearly enough. I really like some of the additions (especially armor rebalancing, food and prices) you have made but I'm afraid these changes will turn me back to regular RCM.

The Last Days / Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« on: February 26, 2012, 04:54:34 pm »
God, I keep getting "pure" RCM and the tweaks by Grothag mixed up. It would be nice if they had different threads!

@ Grothag

I rather like some of the ideas behind your tweaks and it's good to see you taking feedback seriously. I'll gladly keep using the submod you're producing and giving feedback where needed. I love your idea of calculating armor stats again and that you're looking into mid tier armor for dwarves.

Just be careful with adjusting damage types of weapons, or else you could risk getting away from the spirit of the original! Which would be a shame, since your work is pretty awesome so far.

@ Rene Korda

Good to hear the original will be kept. I've been a huge fan and tester ever since it got first released.

The Last Days / Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« on: February 26, 2012, 10:04:23 am »
@ Gondor Knight: I was using the "unofficial" one. 

I think the threshold should remain 0, because it is impossible to not feel anything when somebody is beating you. I can wear armor all I want, but getting hit hard with a couple of wooden clubs will affect my balance and ability to keep upright, even if the only thing they manage to do is tackle me.

Please, don't change damage types of weapons and things like threshold too much, if at all. Getting mobbed by 10 orcs with sticks should be a stunlock until death. I want armor to matter a lot versus most weapons. I want it to remain the RCM I know and love instead of an unneeded alteration by someone else.

I think you should look at the stats (pierce vs cut) Ron provided in terms of gameplay/realism.

The idea of having really high cut damage is that having a lot of armor on you really matters versus that type of weapon (which is kind of the point of RCM). 35 pierce would be way too high versus armored opponents, but 20 pierce wouldn't accurately represent the damage versus an unarmored opponent.

I remember when I tested the first instances of RCM for another mod (Onin no ran and native) that pierce was meant for those few weapons that obliterated armor, instead of being merely effective versus them. The downside would be that they were poorer choices versus lightly armored opponents and the damage would be lower.

 Think things like heavy axes that would wedge through and heavily dent armor (which would provide all new kinds of broken bones, but not do a lot extra when someone isn't wearing anything deformable). Same story for blunt, but which weapons are supposed to be blunt is a lot more obvious. You can't say that for spears.

The Last Days / Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« on: February 25, 2012, 01:32:44 pm »
No bug, but a gameplay issue I noticed: when I'm playing a melee infantry faction it's too hard to buy decent armor.

As dwarves I'm fighting really large battles, but all of my troops have better armor then I do. There are no mid tier armors that are affordable and effective. I can do little but stand behind my own troops in a basic tunic while everyone walks around with far better armor. It's really killing the epic fantasy mood for me.

Don't get me wrong, the well made top tier stuff should still be expensive and feel as a accomplishment to buy, but this is a bit extreme.

The Last Days / Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« on: February 24, 2012, 05:43:37 pm »
That is indeed the problem as that's the file I'm using. Looking out for bugs, but it looks like a very well done job so far!

The Last Days / Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« on: February 24, 2012, 05:18:02 pm »
Since updating RCM I get several dwarves standing around with no armor. This is the case with Kili Goldfinger and the guildmaster of Erebor. What's causing this? Any changes in strength requirements or something?

The Last Days / Re: TLD 3.1 - Bug Reports
« on: February 20, 2012, 09:13:41 am »
I got a strange repeatable CTD as soon as the war of the ring starts. (latest version 3.12)

First time it happened the in game cut scenes detailing Rohan, Gondor and Minas Morgul would play and then a crash to desktop occurred.

After that, every time I get a start of the war or enter a town, the game crashes without showing the cut scenes. It happens in two different saves I made just after each other. I was doing a troll quest at the time and the saves are from just before and just after that battle.

I also tried starting the war on a new character and then it worked as intended. Therefore I believe it's related to a corrupted save game. I uploaded the save games for a bug hunter to take a look at if it's helpful.

Link: http://www.2shared.com/file/BZSbfLhr/Savegames.html
What happens if you switch cutscenes off in camp options menu?

Edit: Switching off cutscenes doesn't change anything. Still a CTD. Both savegames. I've noticed I still hear the sound of my daily income drop and then CTD.

The Last Days / Re: Combat Damage Model (RCM)
« on: February 12, 2012, 07:31:12 am »
It's been a while since I last posted here, but TLD brought me back. Awesome mod! However, since I installed RCM I got strange scripting errors. When I entered any city whatsoever I ended up in an escape from Moria quest or something. New characters don't receive skill points and spawn at random places in the world. This is TLD with hotfixes installed.

I'm currently trying to reinstall TLD again with all hotfixes and see where it screws up exactly, but I was wondering if anybody else was experiencing this.

Edit: reinstalling everything from scratch fixed it. I'll keep my eyes open for any bugs.

Minor Mods / Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« on: October 05, 2009, 07:06:50 am »
I wouldn't be too sure that everyone knew. The first time I read about this was when I was doing a paper on ancient Egypt and the guy who wrote the book argued that it could have been real because Ramses entered some kind of berserker state which scared the enemies away and gave him enough leverage to negotiate a peace treaty. That writer probably put too much thought into the matter  :green:

Speaking of thinking too much about it: Sport fighting has the nasty side effect that your opponent doesn't want you dead, so you've got time to invent plenty of insane rules and procedures. Case in point: this guy. I've been wanting to show you this Ron, but since we're already speaking of ridiculous combat theories I'll share this here.


This guy absolutely pisses me off to no end. The smug way he's preaching about dealing with knives combined with the utter ridiculousness of the woman who is "attacking" with said knife is unbelievable. It has to be seen to be fully appreciated in all its god awful glory. He does a bit about gun defence as well, if this isn't annoying enough yet.

The ancients would no doubt have little trouble with seeing the difference between entertainment and real business I think. Just remember that most, if not all armies of the ancient (European) world consisted of urban militias that required every able male citizen to join in the war effort when they were needed, except for the peoples that were rich enough to hire mostly mercenaries.  Not just the Romans did this, but also the Greeks, Carthaginians (although they used a lot of Iberians in their armies) and the Celts. Rich and/or experienced people would function as heavy infantry like the hoplite or triarius, while poorer people would be used as the first line, skirmishers, archers and/or scouts, depending on the culture you're looking at. Citizens were required to be proficient with using weapons and the amount of skill that was expected increased with the wealth of the citizen, since the ancients figured they had a lot more to fight for.

Sparta pushed this the farthest, with every male citizen being required to train since birth for the army and captured slaves being required to manage daily business at home. Children were taught in the harshest way possible, with having to steal food and kill slaves to survive at some point in their lives. Stealing and murder weren't punishable, but getting caught was.

Rome was the first to use professional armies, but they were so large that a lot of the populace must have seen combat at least once in their lifetimes. Pursuing a successful political career was impossible without having served in the army, so even rich people had to have seen plenty of combat. Time of service in professional armies was at least 20 years, but could be increased to 30 if you were willing, so there must have been plenty of experienced instructors to set their recruits straight.

Minor Mods / Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« on: October 05, 2009, 01:31:20 am »
Excellent points from both sides about spear combat and epic poets. It makes for a really interesting read. I'll add my two cents:

About the gladius hispaniensis:

It's one of the best know Latin words when referring to the Romans and specifically to the army, while most people don't even know what it means when you translate it. That probably goes for most of the other equipment or terminology they used. Most people don'tl know what use a signum had or where they used a scutum for, nor what Romans were talking about when they referred to the muli mariani (Marius' mules).

About "poetic liberty":

Homer isn't even the greatest offender of depicting unrealistic warfare. At least with him even the ancients knew that it was meant to be a fairy tale.

Let me show you the OFFICIAL account of Ramses II when he lost the battle of Khadesh. Ramses made every military blunder there was in the book and some that weren't even in the book, such as spreading military divisions thin over 15 kilometers, not sending out scouts, allowing himself to be attacked in the back and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. When the battle was over, Ramses had to retreat and Khadesh was still under Hittite control. Look at what he wrote about the battle himself:

   Lo, while his majesty sat talking with the princes, the vanquished chief of Kheta came, and the numerous countries, which were with him. They crossed over the channel on the south of Kadesh, and charged into the army of his majesty while they were marching, and not expecting it. Then the infantry and chariotry of his majesty retreated before them, northward to the place where his majesty was. Lo, the foes of the vanquished chief of Kheta surrounded the bodyguard of his majesty, who were by his side.

    When his majesty saw them, he was enraged against them, like his father, Montu, lord of Thebes. He seized the adornments of battle, and arrayed himself in his coat of mail. He was like Baal in his hour. Then he betook himself to his horses, and led quickly on, being alone by himself. He charged into the foes of the vanquished chief of Kheta, and the numerous countries which were with him. His majesty was like Sutekh, the great in strength, smiting and slaying among them; his majesty hurled them headlong, one upon another into the water of the Orontes.

    "I charged all countries, while I was alone, my infantry and my chariotry having forsaken me. Not one among them stood to turn about. I swear, as Re loves me, as my father, Atum, favors me, that, as for every matter which his majesty has stated, I did it in truth, in the presence of my infantry and my chariotry."

Short version: The Hittites pissed me off, so I beat them all with my eyes closed and my bare hands tied behind my back. Also I didn't lose.

Minor Mods / Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« on: July 24, 2009, 06:37:14 pm »
Well I do tend to ramble on a bit when discussing history...

You're right about it not all being religion based, especially in the Eastern Roman empire and with the Arabs, but when you see the original (especially early) medieval scientific texts of western Europe they contain a lot of religious symbolism. The scientific subjects are explained using religious symbolism and such. This suggests that they were very much intertwined at the time.

I think Latin was chosen because it was the language of the church, not because it had access to a lot of written theory. The works that were originally available in Latin were very basic compared to what was available in Greek, even in Roman times. Most Latin texts were relatively short summaries of the original Greek works. The difference is as big as basic rules of maths given at ground school or advanced mathematics in university. Translation from Greek into Latin was already attempted in Roman times, but never caught on with the intellectuals. Almost all the Roman teachers you refer to were captured educated Greek slaves, so translation wasn't really needed because knowledge of Greek was widespread at the time. Greek teachers were employed to teach the youth about the classics and to study rhetoric. Every rich man that had any formal learning would have spoken Greek as it was the language that was used by the elite when talking to each other. Julius Caesar's last words weren't recorded to be in Latin ("Et tu, Brute?"), but in Greek ("Kai su, teknon?").

Minor Mods / Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« on: July 24, 2009, 06:28:10 am »
On the insightful comments about combat I've got nothing to add. Thanks for sharing your experiences and I hope someone takes them to heart when it matters!

On the question about science I've got something to add. Don't forget there are things like natural science, but also other science like the study of history and languages. At the start of the Middle Ages the Roman empire was divided between a western part and an eastern part. The Western Roman empire (with Rome as its capital, Latin speaking) was in steady decline for about 200 years while the Eastern Roman empire (capital Constantinople, Greek speaking) flourished. The fall of Rome in 478 A.D. to the German barbarians meant the start of the middle ages. No other single power was able to deliver the stability the Romans used to provide, while many tried to follow in their footsteps.

Most of the advanced knowledge that the Romans had was lost, since most scientific texts (even in Roman times) were written in Greek. Since Latin was the language of the Church (and thus of science in general), people in the west lacked the lingual ability to understand those texts and most of them were lost. Monasteries namely tended to only copy what was useful to them. Perhaps the most striking example of the loss of knowledge is the secret of making concrete, which wasn't rediscovered until the 18th century. The only stable factor was the Catholic church, which was the only place where people had the time and ability to do research. Most research was monastic and therefore religion related and contributed little to the understanding of the laws that governed the natural world or the study of subjects like history and languages. Mathematics was studied to calculate when Easter would fall, astronomy was studied to find a reliable means to calculate the time for prayer in the monastery, Latin was the only language that needed to be learned and texts on drugs were studied to care for the sick. It was all very practical.

The first man who really attempted to bring some advanced schooling back in western Europe was Charlemagne (around 800 a.d.). He instituted a system of schools focusing on relearning the classics that survived from the Western Roman empire. Note that this still only meant study of the surviving Latin texts. This effort was soon ended by the fall of the Frankish empire in 840 A.D, but meant a start of the rediscovery of higher education.

The true start of the relearning of science came with the reconquering of Spain from the Arabs in 1050 A.D. Western Europe had been a scientific retarded place since the fall of the Romans compared with the Eastern Roman empire and the Arabs. Scholars translated the works of the far more scientifically advanced Arabs and learned a lot about maths, medicine, astronomy and other purely scientific subjects. This also meant the first encounters with works of Greeks that were translated into Arabic, such as Aristotle. This also gave rise to the first medieval universities and the start of the scientific method of logic and reasoning. A lot of research was still intertwined with religion, but the first signs of thinking outside the box can be seen. Aristotle wrote that the Earth stood still and the Heavens moved around the Earth, but this idea was already disputed around this time. There was still one thing needed to really start a Renaissance of ancient knowledge and that happened around 1453 A.D.

The Eastern Roman empire existed until 1453, when the Ottomans sacked Constantinople. It lead to an exodus of Greek scholars to the west, especially to Italy. From there the knowledge of the classic texts spread through Europe and led to a renewed study of history and languages. It also meant that progress in natural science was on hold for some time, because researchers focused on the classic texts for a while which made Plato and Aristotle more important in that aspect than they should have been.

Minor Mods / Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« on: July 20, 2009, 04:33:21 am »
I love talking about ancient history. I think you're right about the Carthaginian cultural expansion phenomenon. Parts of Phoenician culture can still be found across the world, since their alphabet (through the Greeks and Romans) is the basis for our own alphabet.

Don't forget that auxiliaries were mostly troops that the Romans encountered while conquering and found useful to incorporate in their armies because they didn't want to fill those roles themselves. Also, don't underestimate what the Romans learned from the Iberians (Spanish tribes). The Iberians were a warlike and independent people, very able skirmishers with lightly armed cavalry and infantry trained by generations of infighting. The Carthaginians had always used them as mercenaries and Hannibal was very pleased with them. The Roman gladius was a straight copy of the weapon the Iberian infantry used. The official name for the "Roman" sword was "gladius hispaniensis" which literally means "Spanish sword". Some historians have even argued that the Romans only started using their famous javelins with their infantry after seeing the Iberians do it.

Lightly armed horsemen with javelins is something that is indigenous to the tribes that inhabited Iberia. At the time of the Punic wars Iberian cavalry was armed with a linen tunic, a leather skullcap, a small round shield called a caetra, two javelins and a falcata. Native Roman cavalry was almost exclusively recruited from the nobility of Rome at the time. These equites wore armour that was as heavy as or perhaps a bit heavier than that of the footsoldier. They used a sword or a long spear, Corinthian helmets, a round shield and breastplates or chain mail.

A funny thing about Roman military ethos is that they approached everything they did themselves from the perspective of a footman, which could be effective because nobody thought of it before. Their own horses were used as a mobile platform to get them into a (flanking) melee or for commanders and officers to get across the battlefield. But when we're talking Carthaginian navy versus the Roman navy, the Romans were so stupid it's brilliant.

Carthage had always been a mercantile, seafaring nation. During the first Punic war it had probably the largest navy of the region and a lot of experience with battles on sea. The Romans never really needed a navy before and lacked any experience whatsoever. Sea battles at the time consisted of ships of both sides trying to ram each other with the larger navy usually winning. The Romans needed a navy to get to Carthage and they managed to do it with their footman's mentality. They built ships like everybody else, but they equipped theirs with a large drawbridge with spikes underneath them. Instead of trying to ram another ship, they got right next to it, deployed the bridge and let their infantry walk on board of their enemies ship. The Romans managed to beat the Carthaginians with it, but later started learning the tactics everybody else used. Their own drawbridge equipped ships weren't all that stable and could easily capsize.

Minor Mods / Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« on: July 19, 2009, 04:33:56 pm »
No, I wasn't talking about curved swords, because I know Europeans used them before Arabs did. I thought I specifically excluded them when talking about falchions, but I'll try to be more specific next time.

Minor Mods / Re: Reallistic Combat Model for Native
« on: July 19, 2009, 10:40:34 am »
I'm away for a few weeks and I miss all sorts of interesting reading. Thanks for sharing your knowledge Ron.

I'd like to add a bit of history which most people seem to forget. Middle eastern culture and European culture overlapped for quite some time in Spain and Portugal during the Middle ages. The Moors invaded Spain in 700 A.D. and eventually practically bordered France. The Reconquista (or Reconquering) took off in 790 A.D. and took until 1300 A.D to complete. Although falchions probably weren't inspired by encounters with curved Arabic swords, other weapons, armors or fighting styles probably did. I'm having trouble coming up with multiple examples, but the Jinetes for one were Spanish light horsemen armed with javelins, sword and shield who were meant to counter the light cavalry the Moors used.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that all kinds of cultures influenced each other in the developing of new weaponry and I think people tend to forget that when talking about " European" versus "Asian".

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