MBX

Mount&Blade Expansion => Mod Graveyard => Minor Mods => Topic started by: The Yogi on October 16, 2007, 04:28:28 PM

Title: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 16, 2007, 04:28:28 PM
REALISTIC NATIVE WEAPON SIZES

(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2180/new2handerdl0.jpg)

See a SLIDESHOW (http://img84.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img84/6564/1192778645b5t.smil) with many pics of the new sized-weapons at Imageshack!

Downolad link at the
M&B Unofficial File Repository (http://www.mbrepository.com/modules/PDdownloads/singlefile.php?cid=6&lid=557).

Very simply, this mod reduces the size of all oversized native weapons (not polearms though) to about 80-85% of original. It also turns the broadsword into a Cinqueda style Shortsword. Comes ready to play for Native and with Python source code pruned for easy implementation into other mods. RCM and vanilla versions.

CURRENT VERSION:
v1.61 - Bugfix: the RCM item1 file of v1.6 was broken, fixed now. Broadened the blade and scabbard of the war sword by 15%, replaced the boar spear, peasant knife and Khyber knife with models by Ron Losey, implemented the reading from module installation - RNWS no longer replaces or interferes with original native files or with mods not set to use RNWS.

IN THE WORKS:

The following mods use or plan to incorporate the Realistic Native Weapons Size:

Feel free to use it in your own mod, although please give me credit for it and drop a line about it in this thread so that I know of it.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: Fisheye on October 16, 2007, 04:55:29 PM
Nice work.

The length stats of Native were usually incompatible with the true model length: you can see this by using the "length" tool in BRFEdit.

I wonder if you just shrank Native's lengths by 80% or if you used lengths that are correct for the newly scaled models?

PS your lengths for the sword of war and the greataxe are wrong... dunno how many more errors there may be.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: The Yogi on October 16, 2007, 05:06:58 PM
Nice work.

The length stats of Native were usually incompatible with the true model length: you can see this by using the "length" tool in BRFEdit.

I wonder if you just shrank Native's lengths by 80% or if you used lengths that are correct for the newly scaled models?

I got the length stat using the tool in BRFEdit. That was a Godsend, otherwise I would never have attempted this. The stats for those weapons I have changed should thus be exactly correct. I also changed one or two legnth stats for weapons I did not change (ie polearms) that were clearly off.

EDIT: Damn, missed those two. Might be others, this was thrown together quick and dirty... will keep bug-hunting.


Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: Fisheye on October 16, 2007, 05:15:41 PM
Excellent, thanks.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: Ron Losey on October 16, 2007, 10:44:12 PM
I don't know if you did or not ... haven't got it downloaded yet ... but feel free to mess with the RCM source code and do a version of that.  (I'll try to eventually get back to actually trying to balance speed and damage better to these new sizes, but that may have to wait for a while...)  Latest RCM version with source is up on the Repository now (Fujiwara got it posted for me).
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: The Yogi on October 17, 2007, 02:38:49 AM
I'm messing with it right now... will have an RCM version up shortly, with a few more bugfixes.

BTW, the ini file coming with final RCM for v.892 causes an RGL failure with v.894.

EDIT: And it's up!


Now I'm having a look on the new swords in weapon_meshes_c.brf (the axes are fine). They are a little bit big too, although not as bad as the vanilla stuff. I'm fooling around with a reduction to 85% of current size, that should make them about to scale with the old vanilla weapons and comparable stats can be used. I'll have it up soon.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: The Yogi on October 17, 2007, 06:38:56 AM
I don't know if you did or not ... haven't got it downloaded yet ... but feel free to mess with the RCM source code and do a version of that.  (I'll try to eventually get back to actually trying to balance speed and damage better to these new sizes, but that may have to wait for a while...)  Latest RCM version with source is up on the Repository now (Fujiwara got it posted for me).

As soon as the .894 source is out, I'll do a version of the RCM source file for the reduced weapons. It'll include the reduced newer swords and a quick and dirty stats rebalance (many,many swords will have exactly the same stats, because I'm going mainly by lenght.

I guess you look at the whole weapon, shape, extrapolate weight and so on, so hopefully you'll be able to impart some variation to these otherwise cloned weapons.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: LCJr on October 17, 2007, 08:28:11 AM
Aren't the 2H axes too small?  Everything I've seen on the Danish axe puts the haft at 4 to 6 feet.  4ft being the most common length given.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: The Yogi on October 17, 2007, 09:35:34 AM
Four feet, that's about 1.2 metres...

(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8656/battleaxeij5.jpg)

Looks about right to me. (Battle Axe)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: LCJr on October 17, 2007, 10:10:49 AM
How tall are people in M&B?

That's a battle ax correct?  So you're saying length 72 = 4 feet?  Doesn't that put pretty much all swords at over 4 ft?  Sword length=79, scimitar=78, etc...
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: The Yogi on October 17, 2007, 10:49:37 AM
No, you're right. That heft is more like 1m (little over three feet), I'd guesstimate. Still, from the size of the axe-head it looks like a credible weapon of war to me. Even if the Danish axes were as long as you describe, it doesn't mean all battle axes had to be. You still have the pole axe with a reach of 180, that could well be the six feet axe you mentioned. The Great-Axe at length 88 should be about four feet.

Still, of course we could have better results if we rescaled the weapons individually, but that would also mean redoing the damage and speed stats (since relative size would change). In this way, by reducing all weapons by the same amount, we can keep rebalancing to a minimum.

In the next version (already half there, RCM version is completed), I did reduce the new medieval and viking swords with only to 85% (they had more realistic size to begin with) and as a result, I've had to redo damage stats for all of them. Don't want to go that way unless I have to.

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: LCJr on October 17, 2007, 11:04:36 AM
Why do you feel the stats need to be redone?  If you felt the armor needed to be rescaled would you think it's protection value needs to be increased/decreased?

BTW the measurement I have for the length of the cutting surface on "typical" Viking ax of the ~11th century is 23 cm.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: The Yogi on October 17, 2007, 11:31:15 AM
Because as a general rule, the bigger the stick, the more it hurts to be hit with it.

But you do have a point. You COULD reason that the stats of the weapon were correct from the start, only the size was wrong. Indeed, that's how I reasoned with the correctly scaled newer axes. So if you feel that Axes as a general rule have been shrunk too much, then maybe I could try a lesser reduction on ALL axes. The important thing if you want to avoid redoing stats is to change all weapons of the same type by the same amount, so their internal "hierarchy" is not upset. Had to do that with the newer swords, since they were clearly too big too, but not as big as the older ones, would like to avoid doing the same with axes.

OK, need more input on this, from you LCJr and anyone else willing to have a look at this. Is it a generalised opinion that axes are too small? How about the new one-handed axes (one-handed battle axe and war axe etc) which have not been shrunk at all?

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: The Yogi on October 17, 2007, 02:53:59 PM
Meanwhile, feast your eyes with another update, namely v1.2!

The newer swords are scaled to fit the orignal ones, and stats altered accordingly. Also many other minor tweaks and bugfixes. Both RCM and Vanilla source python files included.

http://www.mbrepository.com/modules/PDdownloads/singlefile.php?cid=6&lid=557 (http://www.mbrepository.com/modules/PDdownloads/singlefile.php?cid=6&lid=557)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: LCJr on October 17, 2007, 04:41:07 PM
Unadjusted the size of the new 1H axes looks right to me, assuming they're the type of ax you'd use on horseback.  The Native length stat is completely out of whack though.  They're about the same size as the Native hatchet but were given the reach of the much longer fighting ax.

For the 2H take a look at this http://www.regia.org/warfare/axe.htm  But then again M&B isn't 100% grounded in reality.

Have you had a chance to playtest your resizing much?  How's the AI, especially mounted, handling the reduced sizes?
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: The Yogi on October 17, 2007, 11:59:23 PM
Unadjusted the size of the new 1H axes looks right to me, assuming they're the type of ax you'd use on horseback.  The Native length stat is completely out of whack though.  They're about the same size as the Native hatchet but were given the reach of the much longer fighting ax.

Are they ever! They had a length set to 90(!) when model length was 61 and 48 respectively! That will be fixed in the next update.

For the 2H take a look at this http://www.regia.org/warfare/axe.htm  But then again M&B isn't 100% grounded in reality.
Interesting site. I'll play around a bit with the 2H-handers, probably they could be a little bit bigger. Won't change anything else than the length stats though.

Have you had a chance to playtest your resizing much?  How's the AI, especially mounted, handling the reduced sizes?.
I haven't tested very much, but I haven't noticed any problem with that so far. AI seems to be hitting about as well as usual. Perhaps it's a little bit easier to dodge blows of very large and slow weapons by backstepping, since they have shorter reach now, but then again I'm playing with RCM, where big weapons were made slower. That might have to be tweaked, but I'm leaving it to Ron, who's going to have a look at this when he finds the time.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native
Post by: The Yogi on October 18, 2007, 01:25:28 AM
OK, I have been looking at the Axes, and with one glaring exception I do not think we have a problem with 80% general size, leaving the new 1H Axe models as is. While most twohanders are smaller than the four foot Danish axes, the War Axe at length 90 should represent those quite well. There should be a range of size also in two-handers.

The glaring exception is the double headed axe. Even at 80%, that thing is just monstrous, but if reduced much more than that it's not credible as a twohander. So my though was to reduce it to 60% size and make it the top of the line one-hander axe. This would of course necessitate a complete stat rework, but for just a few weapons I can do that.

It would look like this (still held as a 2-hander):
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7357/newdbleaxekt3.jpg)

Also, there is not a logical progression in size and stats. The Fighting Axe and Axe are underpowered for their length and weight, compared to the shorter one-handers, and look too long for comfy 1H use. My take is that the new 1-handers should be nerfed a little bit (at least in RCM), the fighting axe made the smallest 2-hander, it just looks too long for single hand use.

The changed stats I had in mind were these (same for RCM and Vanilla unless stated otherwise);

1H War Axe; damage 28 (ie, unchanged in Vanilla)
1H Battle Axe; damage 29, (ie, unchanged in Vanilla)
(1H) Double Headed Axe (reduced to 60% of original), damage 32, speed 65(RCM) 75(Vanilla), length 55, weight 4.5, strength requirement 12

(2H) Fighting Axe, damage 32, strenght required 7, otherwise unchanged
(2H) Axe, damage 35, otherwise unchanged

Version 1.3 with the above changes is up!
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.3
Post by: hayate666 on October 18, 2007, 01:37:34 PM
A two headed one handed axe looks strange to me. Perhaps it's just me though.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.31 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 18, 2007, 05:42:41 PM
Mate, it's not you. A two-headed axe LOOKS strange, 1-handed or 2-handed. The only ones I know of are greek ceremonial axes from antiquity. The only way that thing could look half-credible was if someone took it apart in wings and lengthened the heft while shrinking the heads. No matter how rescaled, the current one will always look very odd.

But I seem to remember from reading Prince Valiant in my youth, a saxon Champion that fights King Arthur's champions in single combat before the wall of Hadrian using such a thing (pure fantasy, I know, but the weapon IS pure fantasy). He defeated one of the Knights by using the double head to quickly change direction of his stroke, from overhand to underhand. Of course, Val spots the trick and cuts it short, so to speak... :) Anyway, there's where the idea came from.

And BTW, New and semi-final version 1.31 is out!, featuring smaller pollaxe, longer (than in previous version) 2H swords and fixed faulty default length stats for polearms (the Great Lance is really length 226!).
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.31 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 19, 2007, 01:40:53 AM
I've made a slideshow of pics from the latest version; enjoy (I hope):

http://img84.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img84/6564/1192778645b5t.smil (http://img84.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img84/6564/1192778645b5t.smil)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.31 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 19, 2007, 05:56:36 AM
Haven't downloaded it yet (technical problems for the last two days), but check something.  At last check, BRFEdit would not do multiple frames of an animated object.  So, a scabbard could be rescaled, but only the first frame of the animation.  The others would remain their original size.

Do check on that.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.31 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 19, 2007, 06:12:22 AM
Haven't downloaded it yet (technical problems for the last two days), but check something.  At last check, BRFEdit would not do multiple frames of an animated object.  So, a scabbard could be rescaled, but only the first frame of the animation.  The others would remain their original size.

Do check on that.


Already did, and it's that way, only I didn't see it at first. I have calls for help out both here and at Talworlds. Hopefully someone more skilled than I can give me some pointers...
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.31 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 19, 2007, 06:36:59 AM
There's no "pointer" to it ... only way to do it is to export every dang frame, resize them, and re-assemble them.

If you want better double-bit axes, I made them for "Cult of the Big Lizard" ... Heavier handles, smaller heads, somewhat fantasy (as the use of double-bit axes goes) but of a size that looks like they could be used.  (Of course, for that mod, the few Native swords being used are intended to be overstated and not terribly realistic.)

However, by the time you scramble all the weapons by that degree, you're going to have a complete mod rather than a retrofit to Native.

Go ahead and mess with the RCM stats for this project ... I'll look them over later.  Just remember to go both ways - if you lower the damage because of the new smaller size, check the speed too.  A lot of the axes and such were modeled for their slightly overdone size, and so made excessively slow as well as highly damaging.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.31 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 19, 2007, 08:09:04 AM
I made it easy on myself. Instead of thinking over every single stat of every reduced weapon, I reasoned that the stats were right, only the scale of the weapon was wrong.

So the only stats I had to change were those weapons that I changed in some other way than just a straight 80% reduction in size, which were the new swords (only 85% reduction, gave them stats in the ballpark of vanilla sword/viking sword), the broadsword and the double axe. All others are left as-is.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.31 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 19, 2007, 08:20:05 AM
I made it easy on myself. Instead of thinking over every single stat of every reduced weapon, I reasoned that the stats were right, only the scale of the weapon was wrong.

So the only stats I had to change were those weapons that I changed in some other way than just a straight 80% reduction in size, which were the new swords (only 85% reduction, gave them stats in the ballpark of vanilla sword/viking sword), the broadsword and the double axe. All others are left as-is.

Question: wouldn't it be possible somehow to copy the first frame of the animation (which is scaled down) into all the other frames? That should be a "little bit" faster than redoing each frame and exporting it.

Ballpark on the swords should be a couple of points lower than they were ... not what the Native ones were.  The numbers from Native were massively too low on most swords, and then much too fast on the really big stuff.  If you want to know which way to scale them, look at the RCM stats between the various sizes of viking swords.  That will give you a good idea of how much difference there should be based on a change in length.

On the frames - the scabbards are generally only two pictures - the one with the sword, and the one without.  The one with the sword is imported twice to make it work out.  But yeah, you're talking about two frames - the first one can be resized, exported, and re-imported with no additional rescale.  The empty one must be reworked and then re-imported.  It's a gazillion hours no matter how you figure it... but no, you don't specifically have to do each frame like it's a different project.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.31 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 19, 2007, 10:11:38 AM
Ballpark on the swords should be a couple of points lower than they were ... not what the Native ones were.  The numbers from Native were massively too low on most swords, and then much too fast on the really big stuff.  If you want to know which way to scale them, look at the RCM stats between the various sizes of viking swords.  That will give you a good idea of how much difference there should be based on a change in length.

I reasoned like this; vanilla sword in RCM has a damage cut/thrust 41/35 at length 102 or whatever it was.

Now vanilla sword has length 80. In the RCM version I leave it at 41/35 and same speed, since all other comparable weapons are down in size by the same amount. The new swords, however were reduced less in size, so I those which ended up at length 80 have damage stats in the ballpark of 41/35, those who ended up at length 85 have a little more, the short ones quite a bit less. Same goes for speed.

In the vanilla version I did the same, but based on the vanilla stats.

If I changed down the stats of all weapons I reduced, then we would have a much reduced damage scale across the board and create an imbalance with the armours which would suddenly protect much better.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.31 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 19, 2007, 10:55:21 AM
News from the scabbard front:

It works, it works! :lol:

The new Cinqueda Shortsword scabbard (used to be the broadsword scabbard)   
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7106/cinqscablq7.jpg)

...and the rescaled scabbards for the vanilla sword and great sword
(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5537/newswordscabbardsly3.jpg)


Now go get v1.4 with scaled down scabbards for all old native weapons![/flash]
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: aquiefrog on October 19, 2007, 08:32:37 PM
Just a suggestion for the fighting axe.  Maybe we could make it a onehand/twohand weapon?  With a penalty when used with shields since it would seem awkward to use it one-handed.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 20, 2007, 12:39:22 PM
That was actually my first though, to maxe fighting axe and axe a 1/2H class of axes, but although they were classed 2handed/1handed in the inventory window, they were only wielded 1h-handed. In the unofficial editor, I'd know how to fix this, but in Python I haven't got a clue.

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: LCJr on October 21, 2007, 07:49:26 AM
Change the animation from itc_scimitar to itc_nodachi.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: aquiefrog on October 23, 2007, 05:14:42 AM
this seems to work:

Code: [Select]
["fighting_axe", "Fighting Axe", [("fighting_ax",0)], itp_type_two_handed_wpn|itp_merchandise| itp_primary|itp_bonus_against_shield|itp_penalty_with_shield, itc_cleaver|itc_nodachi|itcf_carry_axe_left_hip, 77 , weight(2.5)|difficulty(9)|spd_rtng(92) | weapon_length(71)|swing_damage(32 , cut) | thrust_damage(0 ,  pierce),imodbits_axe ],
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 23, 2007, 05:35:22 AM
Ah, great! I think the critical missing part here is "penalty with shield". Will try it out and include in next release if it works.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 05:40:57 AM
this seems to work:

Code: [Select]
["fighting_axe", "Fighting Axe", [("fighting_ax",0)], itp_type_two_handed_wpn|itp_merchandise| itp_primary|itp_bonus_against_shield|itp_penalty_with_shield, itc_cleaver|itc_nodachi|itcf_carry_axe_left_hip, 77 , weight(2.5)|difficulty(9)|spd_rtng(92) | weapon_length(71)|swing_damage(32 , cut) | thrust_damage(0 ,  pierce),imodbits_axe ],

drop itc_cleaver from that line before you crash something.


"penalty with shield" won't do anything to the animation - it only modifies statistics.  Problem is that itc_cleaver is a one-handed attack animation.  It needs a two-handed one (itc_nodachi).  But don't use both, like that line above ... you really could crash something.

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 23, 2007, 05:44:54 AM
drop itc_cleaver from that line before you crash something.


"penalty with shield" won't do anything to the animation - it only modifies statistics.  Problem is that itc_cleaver is a one-handed attack animation.  It needs a two-handed one (itc_nodachi).  But don't use both, like that line above ... you really could crash something.

Right. But won't I need both a one-handed and a two-handed animation for this to work?
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 05:52:52 AM
drop itc_cleaver from that line before you crash something.


"penalty with shield" won't do anything to the animation - it only modifies statistics.  Problem is that itc_cleaver is a one-handed attack animation.  It needs a two-handed one (itc_nodachi).  But don't use both, like that line above ... you really could crash something.

Right. But won't I need both a one-handed and a two-handed animation for this to work?

Shoot .... does itc_nodachi not have both?  I know it has the from horseback one-handed stuff.  Well, leave them both and see - but if it acts funny, double-check which moves are included in each of those and see if any might conflict.  (Also check if itc_nodachi has a scabbard command with it ... that will certainly conflict if it does.  I made the mistake of using itc_dagger on a model without a scabbard once.)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: aquiefrog on October 23, 2007, 06:37:26 AM
Nodachi has itc_cut_two_handed | itc_parry_two_handed

I checked it while riding. It didn't crash at all.  header_items.py contains the contents of attack capabilities.  the native code for bastardsword is itself redundant and has never crashed any game as far as i know.

Look:

- itc_bastardsword = itc_cut_two_handed |  itcf_thrust_twohanded | itc_parry_two_handed |itc_dagger

- itc_cut_two_handed = itcf_force_64_bits | (itcf_slashright_twohanded | itcf_slashleft_twohanded | itcf_overswing_twohanded |
                                           itcf_horseback_slashright_onehanded|itcf_horseback_slashleft_onehanded)

- itc_dagger  = itc_cleaver | itcf_thrust_onehanded

- itc_cleaver = itcf_force_64_bits | (itcf_overswing_onehanded|itcf_slashright_onehanded|itcf_slashleft_onehanded |
                                    itcf_horseback_slashright_onehanded|itcf_horseback_slashleft_onehanded)

Therefore:

itc_bastardsword =  itcf_force_64_bits | (itcf_slashright_twohanded | itcf_slashleft_twohanded | itcf_overswing_twohanded |
                                           itcf_horseback_slashright_onehanded|itcf_horseback_slashleft_onehanded)|  itcf_thrust_twohanded | itc_parry_two_handed |itcf_force_64_bits | (itcf_overswing_onehanded|itcf_slashright_onehanded|itcf_slashleft_onehanded |
                                    itcf_horseback_slashright_onehanded|itcf_horseback_slashleft_onehanded)| itcf_thrust_onehanded

Anyway, I'm not sure why it works, however I removed "itp_two_handed" from the fighting axe, and tacked on itc_cleaver and itcp_penalty_with_shield.

In game, I didn't notice a significant difference in speed, however damage seems to be lower while used with a shield (and on a horse).  (i was fighting river pirates using vanilla damage scale).

Also, I thought scabbard properties are modified by something else?

itcf_show_holster_when_drawn <--- this
("scab_bastardsw", ixmesh_carry) <--- and this?
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 07:08:24 AM
Yeah ... don't know if it still does, but itc_dagger used to include itcf_show_holster_when_drawn ... needless to say, if used with something that didn't have a scabbard, things went south pretty fast, and realizing where the problem was could take time.  I thought itc_nodachi used to include a scabbard command, but maybe it was something else that did that.  I've monkeyed with so many of these things that it's all running together.

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: aquiefrog on October 23, 2007, 08:09:12 AM
Um... I know Yogi said the pole_ax is being worked on already... but I was taking a break from making mask helms and did this:

(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9633/poleaxbtc4.th.jpg) (http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=poleaxbtc4.jpg)

it's the pole ax from the resize project, and i just stretched the knob thingy on top to make a spearhead.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: DaBlade on October 23, 2007, 10:27:40 AM
That looks good.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 23, 2007, 03:25:37 PM
Looks OK, and almost exactly like the one I did and Ron textured for me. I just copied the point of the spear, sized it down and attached it to the top of the pollaxe. Will be included in the next release.

As for total length, I was aiming at about 180-190 cm total length, since depictions of Medieveal pollaxes seem to be about man-length. In XVI and XVII century writings total lengths are cited at above 2 metres, but I'm going with the earlier size.

I'll try to get the next version out for tomorrow evening.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 23, 2007, 04:10:19 PM
BTW, how does this look? The whole weapon (not the length stat) is 180 cm, but it still looks a bit largeish to me. Maybe reduce even further?

(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8568/newpollaxeqq4.jpg)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: aquiefrog on October 23, 2007, 07:29:38 PM
I think the axehead (dunno the correct term) is too large.  I don't have any expert knowledge on pole axes, but wikipedia says the pole ax's axehead is smaller than the average battle axe.  I'm trying to scour pictures off the internet for reference.

Edit: I can no longer find where I read that pole axes had smaller axe blades.  I'm not sure if that's the case any more.  However, I think a smaller axe blade would make it easier to handle (also looks more proportionate, aesthetically), i would guess that in theory, the added length of the weapon would give enough leverage to compensate for having a lighter axehead.

I think the overall length is fine, could be longer.

Also, maybe we can instead make two versions of the pole axe?  one with spike (wikipedia says it's supposed to be dagger-like), and one without.  The version without a spike would have to have its thrusting attacks removed making it a dedicated swinging polearm or make it do blunt damage with similar damage values to a staff... not sure what to do with couched lance...
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 11:27:00 PM
If you want to know what a real pollaxe looks like, try here:

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/NotesLEJEUDELAHACHE.htm

That's the ARMA collection notes on "La Jeu de la Hache", which they have illustrated with prints from Talhoffer and others.  That will show exactly what size they were.

And yeah, that one still looks a little funny.  I think it's because the pole is WAY too small in diameter.

On length, George Silver:  "Of the lengths of the battle axe, halberd, or black bill, or such like weapons of weight, appertaining unto guard or battle.  In any of these weapons there needs no just length, but commonly they are, or ought to be five or six foot long, & may not well be used much longer, because of their weights, and being weapons for the wars and battle, when men are joined close together, may thrust, & strike sound blows, with great force both strong and quick. "

Yogi:  give me a few days to think about it, and I'll try to cook up a decent pole-axe and pole-hammer.  They likely won't be anything too special, but they will at least be decent sizes.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 23, 2007, 11:38:49 PM
Fine, no hurry.

In the meantime, I'll play with greater reduction in length, but lesser in width. This will give a stouter pole and a narrower axe-head - might look better, perhaps even good enough.

I don't think there should be a pollaxe without a spear point. That is not a pollaxe, just a plain axe, and we have several of those already.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Papa Lazarou on October 24, 2007, 05:28:30 AM
Are you planning to resize bows too? That'd be good.

Hope this isn't clutter =/
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 24, 2007, 05:40:01 AM
Are you planning to resize bows too? That'd be good.

Hope this isn't clutter =/

Was there something wrong with the size of the bows?

Well, I mean the "long bow" is more like a "slightly longer than average bow" instead of those seven-foot-long monstrosities that the English called a "long bow" ... but outside of that, they don't look all that out of spec.
 
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Papa Lazarou on October 24, 2007, 06:28:24 AM
If I remember right... the hunting bow is as tall as a man (while strung). Seems a little much. But I guess the main problem with bows is the draw length. I mean, they draw the string past their head. That deforms some bows pretty badly - particularly the smaller ones (nomad etc.)

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 24, 2007, 08:19:54 AM
I wasn't aware of the bad size of bows. I'll have a look at them, they should be easy since we don't need to change any stats from chaning their size.

Wow, I've got my work cut out for me...
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 24, 2007, 08:30:35 AM
The draw clear back to the ear is part of the animation ... you can't change that with the weapon model, and if you try, you're going to get the hand back by the ear and the string hovering out in air six inches forward of that.

Plus, messing with the bow sizes is going to get into all of those frames of animation.

Advise not touching the bows unless you really want to start something.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 24, 2007, 10:15:07 AM
M'key...

I REALLY don't want to rescale any more animations unless I have to (ie someone forces me at gunpoint).
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 24, 2007, 02:23:24 PM
OK, latest attempt at pollaxe rescaling;

Length reduced to 60%, other axes unchanged.

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6834/newpollaxeyo1.jpg)

Length is now on the short side of historical length, and still it looks too big to me. It's the business end of it that's oversized, and no amount of rescaling can fix that. I'm firing up wings while I wait for your new model, Ron.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 24, 2007, 06:12:02 PM
I'll try to get to it today.  Stand by.

Again, no promises of it being good ... I just said it would be the right size.


------------------------------

EDIT:
Sent.  Yogi, check your mail. 

Also, if anybody else needs a decent looking short halberd and a bec-de-corbin to replace the rather crummy-looking Native pole-axe and that absurd neolithic pole-hammer, I'll send these to you.  They're nothing special, but they do fix the problem.


--------------------------
Edit again: 
Those two I sent you were not particularly shorter than the Native ones, just heads of relatively normal dimensions (instead of freakishly long but oddly narrow axe blades).  If you really want shorter ones, give me an exact length and that can be done too.  Also, target weight - if you want lighter ones, I can do that too.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 25, 2007, 04:34:48 AM
EDIT:
Sent.  Yogi, check your mail. 

Also, if anybody else needs a decent looking short halberd and a bec-de-corbin to replace the rather crummy-looking Native pole-axe and that absurd neolithic pole-hammer, I'll send these to you.  They're nothing special, but they do fix the problem.

Edit again: 
Those two I sent you were not particularly shorter than the Native ones, just heads of relatively normal dimensions (instead of freakishly long but oddly narrow axe blades).  If you really want shorter ones, give me an exact length and that can be done too.  Also, target weight - if you want lighter ones, I can do that too.

Thanks, I'll have a look when I get back from work tonight. My youngest boy fell asleep before dinner and couldn't be waken, then he did wake up at 10.30 PM craving nourishment, so there was precious little modding time last night... :D

Size is really not a problem, that I can fix easily, correct proportions is the main thing. I guess we could turn the big pollaxe into an OK large halberd though (not that there is such a thing in Native, but still). A bec-de corbin would be a good thing. I hate the polehammer.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 25, 2007, 04:44:50 AM
Yeah, well, the shape of the heads on those are straight out of Talhoffer.  Just a question of length and weight ... but the way I tweaked them around, you probably can't do much with the rescale in BRFEdit.  It will require a little bit of strategic spot-rescale if you want a different look.  So if there's a problem with what you were looking for, tell me and let me monkey with it, rather than just rescaling it.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 25, 2007, 07:58:21 AM
Yeah, well, the shape of the heads on those are straight out of Talhoffer.  Just a question of length and weight ... but the way I tweaked them around, you probably can't do much with the rescale in BRFEdit.  It will require a little bit of strategic spot-rescale if you want a different look.  So if there's a problem with what you were looking for, tell me and let me monkey with it, rather than just rescaling it.

As I said, I haven't had time to look at it yet, but the total length (not length stat) I was aiming for was about somewhere between 1,75m and 2m or about the length of a man, which it seems was the most common length for pollaxes in the middle ages, even if they became longer in the XVI and XVII centuries.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 25, 2007, 04:32:30 PM
The latest version of the pollaxe. Ron did the axehead and I changed the spearpoint to a sharp spike.

It's beggining to look right, methinks! :)

(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6532/newpollaxeam8.jpg)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: DaBlade on October 25, 2007, 10:16:37 PM
I think it looks better than the native one. ;) Not sure about the blue spike though.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 25, 2007, 10:22:31 PM
heh, I know. Comes from not knowing texturing, but a better version is in the works. Apparently spiked pollaxes are late ones, I didn't  know that.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.4 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 25, 2007, 11:16:58 PM
heh, I know. Comes from not knowing texturing, but a better version is in the works. Apparently spiked pollaxes are late ones, I didn't  know that.

Conical spikes were used in response to plate armor.

Yogi, check your mail ... more samples.  We'll get one that fits the bill eventually.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 27, 2007, 02:59:28 AM
Version 1.5 is out with the latest pollaxe, a bec-de-corbin replacing the stone-head pole hammer, a new-better looking model for the double-headed axe (all courtesy of Ron) and finally, all by my lonesome I was able to use Wings to scale up only the handle of the Greatsword so that it doesn't look like a chopstick any more. Also implemented 1/2H use of Fighting Axe and Axe.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: aquiefrog on October 27, 2007, 06:34:14 AM
Yay! any chance that the maul, sledgehammer, and warhammer will be worked on?
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 27, 2007, 07:31:57 AM
Yay! any chance that the maul, sledgehammer, and warhammer will be worked on?

I could ... what do you guys think they should be?

I mean, one civilian wooden maul, and a couple of German-looking great-hammers?  Or something with a longer handle?  Anybody a fan of the long mace? 

Just by patching and rescaling bits and pieces from Native models, I can cook up just about anything (as long as it doesn't have to be TOO accurate to a particular real-world piece) ... but I need to know what you all have in mind.

Note that items can be renamed, as far as what players know, without changing the name of the item.  That is, we can have the screen read "Great Hammer" without actually changing the item identifier "itm_maul" ... so it would still be Native-compatible even if we turn them into completely different objects.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: mtarini on October 28, 2007, 01:51:13 PM
I'm totally ignorant of medieval weaponry. But, I really like the why the new sizes look on screen. Much better! Love it. KUDOS!

I am a little worried that this is making Mods influence native, and back. I would prefer that each Mod was independent from
native and from each other. Would that be possible?

Like, making each converted MOD use its own copy of any native weapon it uses, coherently resizing that copy rahter than the originals?
(so that a realistic resized mods would not use any of native?). Is this difficult to get, or does it involve just a little cut-and-pasting?

Apologies if the answer for this is stated somewhere or is self evident.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 28, 2007, 03:25:58 PM
I'm totally ignorant of medieval weaponry. But, I really like the why the new sizes look on screen. Much better! Love it. KUDOS!

I am a little worried that this is making Mods influence native, and back. I would prefer that each Mod was independent from
native and from each other. Would that be possible?

Like, making each converted MOD use its own copy of any native weapon it uses, coherently resizing that copy rahter than the originals?
(so that a realistic resized mods would not use any of native?). Is this difficult to get, or does it involve just a little cut-and-pasting?

Apologies if the answer for this is stated somewhere or is self evident.


No problem, and yes, that is possible, although tiresome.

Strictly speaking, the so called "Native weapons" are not a part of the "Native" module, since they are located in common resources, and so available for all mods to use. A better name would actually be "standard weapons", so it's not really a case of Native affecting mods and mods native... Native is a module, and like any other module, it can (and does) draw from the Common Resources. RNWS is not a "Mod" as in "Module" but as in "Modification" and what it modifies are the Common Resources.

The point of my resize is that Native sizes are wrong, and look bad, and since they appear in most mods, it's easier to strike at the roots of evil, so to speak.

But anyway, you'd have create a copy of each reduced weapon mesh and give it a new name and put them all in a new weapon mesh file, then substitue the original model names in the item file with the new names. I hope that was understandable.

But what I'd do in your place is to make using my mod optional, ie, make two item files, one for normal native weapons and one for realistic native weapons -just copy and paste from my source file, it should take you about 30 seconds. That way, your mod will be compatible with either one of the two. I'm getting the feeling quite a few people do not like RNWS (probably they just LUUUV swinging around swords the sizes of railroad track sections because it makes them feel manly) and it would be a shame if they dissed your mod for using my rescale.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 28, 2007, 03:39:15 PM
Yay! any chance that the maul, sledgehammer, and warhammer will be worked on?

I could ... what do you guys think they should be?

I mean, one civilian wooden maul, and a couple of German-looking great-hammers?  Or something with a longer handle?  Anybody a fan of the long mace? 

Ron, how about we have the sledgehammer being a civilian tool used as a weapon? I'm thinking simply a smith's tool, a squarish block of iron mounted as a hammerhead?
(http://www.war-toys.com/figures/Manfred/sledgehammer.jpg)

As for the maul... how about something like this?
(http://www.pavingexpert.com/images/tools/maul01.jpg)

The warhammer I imagine as a two-handed equivalent of the so called military hammer, I guess that would be the great hammer you mentioned.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: mtarini on October 28, 2007, 04:22:16 PM
No problem, and yes, that is possible, although tiresome.

I see. Yes, really tiresome.

But anyway, you'd have create a copy of each reduced weapon mesh and give it a new name and put them all in a new weapon mesh file, then substitue the original model names in the item file with the new names. I hope that was understandable.

Wouldn't it be enough to make RNWS a mod, and place all the edited brf file in its resource folder, and make the "ini" file link with that with a "load_mod_resource" instead of "load_resource"? That way, you can play it as a mod (as in module). Other mods that use it, like TLD, could do likewise (include native edited brf files in their resource folder, link them with a "load_mod_resource" command).

The point is that other MODS, like fantasy, or warhammer, might be perfectly ok with the original oversized weapons. I think. Just guessing, all I know about them is their title.

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 28, 2007, 06:07:35 PM
Heh, I think you might be on to something there.  :-[

Yes, that should work. I forgot even the common resources are loaded up through commands in the ini file. Take those away, and you could perfectly well load up the weapon_meshes files through a mod resource command.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 28, 2007, 11:37:47 PM
Yay! any chance that the maul, sledgehammer, and warhammer will be worked on?

I could ... what do you guys think they should be?

I mean, one civilian wooden maul, and a couple of German-looking great-hammers?  Or something with a longer handle?  Anybody a fan of the long mace? 

Ron, how about we have the sledgehammer being a civilian tool used as a weapon? I'm thinking simply a smith's tool, a squarish block of iron mounted as a hammerhead?
(http://www.war-toys.com/figures/Manfred/sledgehammer.jpg)

As for the maul... how about something like this?
(http://www.pavingexpert.com/images/tools/maul01.jpg)

The warhammer I imagine as a two-handed equivalent of the so called military hammer, I guess that would be the great hammer you mentioned.

The "great hammer" of Germany was in fact a large version of the military hammer.

I am unaware of any non-military sledgehammers using iron heads before the industrial revolution.  Smaller shop hammers, sure, but I think all large mauls were wood.

Sent you a wooden mallet model ... check your e-mail.  Will get the others ASAP.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 29, 2007, 05:46:14 AM
Saw it, liked it, will use.

The problem, it seems, is that a pre-industrial sledgehammer is basically the same thing as the maul you sent me, except possibly for size. Maybe we could just consider them two sizes of the same thing, the maul being for 1-handed use and the sledgehammer for two-handed?

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 29, 2007, 06:48:42 AM
Saw it, liked it, will use.

The problem, it seems, is that a pre-industrial sledgehammer is basically the same thing as the maul you sent me, except possibly for size. Maybe we could just consider them two sizes of the same thing, the maul being for 1-handed use and the sledgehammer for two-handed?



I'll try to get them tomorrow - my plan was to make two military-type great hammers.  They can be written in over the other two native hammer items, and we're done.  If you really want to get elaborate, we can rework things like "iron hammer" earlier in the list... but that's starting to go beyond a resize and into a major weapons rework.  Not that I'm opposed to that, but I think we're going to need some more help ... my modeling skills are not up to the task.

A maul, a two-handed mallet, a two-handed hammer and a sledgehammer ARE the same thing, essentially.  A "war hammer" could be any hammer designed for combat, large or small, of any material or from any time period.  A "great hammer" referred to a big two-handed version of the "military hammer" (which is actually a sort of small pick) similar to a pole-hammer (like the bec-de-corbin I sent you).

I figure you can rename the other two ... call them "war hammer" and "great hammer" (in the display name, not the item name, so it will still work with Native) and you're done.  They'll need new stats in the RCM version for sure...

I'll try to get those ASAP ... but I just got the items file for ONR, and I want to get that back to Fujiwara first.  (I'm holding up the show there.  Lot of people waiting for the next version of ONR.)  Then I'll try to get those hammers before going back to the troop tree for "Cult of the Big Lizard".  I've just got too darn many irons in the fire.  But stand by ... I WILL get those hammers to you.

I should probably eventually look over your RCM stats for this project too ... but I'll wait until we're a little closer to final.  You're probably close enough on most of them for now.

I've got too many irons in the fire.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 29, 2007, 09:22:53 AM
Let's make things simple, and try to stay as close to Native as possible. Armagan called them Maul and Sledgehammer, so let's make them exactly that, albeit more realistic than the neolithic weapons we had before - we can use variations on that wooden mallet you sent me and be done with it.

As for great hammers, I think we only need one, to replace the "Warhammer", right?

EDIT: The RCM stats for this project so far are very much a bodgejob. My basic assumption has been that stats should NOT change much, except for when relative sizes have changed. So Native swords have more or less unchanged stats, but the new swords get a little more damage than before since most are as big as the original native ones and the long ones are now bigger (lenght 84-86). Speed probably needs to be reworked a bit, the lenght 80 swords have speed around 100-102 (with higher stats for tapering swords and lower for parallel edge swords such as viking swords). The longer swords have speeds around 96-98.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: sdog on October 29, 2007, 10:24:44 AM
can't imagine how this mod could drop out of my memory...
just found it again and i'm eager to try it out. from what i've read here it seems like it's quite a decent improvement!
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 29, 2007, 06:09:29 PM
Let's make things simple, and try to stay as close to Native as possible. Armagan called them Maul and Sledgehammer, so let's make them exactly that, albeit more realistic than the neolithic weapons we had before - we can use variations on that wooden mallet you sent me and be done with it.

As for great hammers, I think we only need one, to replace the "Warhammer", right?

EDIT: The RCM stats for this project so far are very much a bodgejob. My basic assumption has been that stats should NOT change much, except for when relative sizes have changed. So Native swords have more or less unchanged stats, but the new swords get a little more damage than before since most are as big as the original native ones and the long ones are now bigger (lenght 84-86). Speed probably needs to be reworked a bit, the lenght 80 swords have speed around 100-102 (with higher stats for tapering swords and lower for parallel edge swords such as viking swords). The longer swords have speeds around 96-98.

Native just has three big neolithic hammers with random names.  What we do with them is our game ... as long as they stay some kind of hammer, it won't even cause inventory order in shops to look funny.  I mean, in English, "maul" and "sledgehammer" are two terms for the same item.  However, since there were three of them with the same stone hammer model, I figure we need three different ones to cover the spread.  That was my idea of keeping it simple.

I will look over those RCM stats eventually ... but ONR stats come first (this morning), and the hammers (hopefully today) ... and looking at those stats is later.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: DaBlade on October 29, 2007, 08:32:54 PM
Calradia at War has some nice hammers (I think they are from Stone Dude's weapon pack), maybe you could use them... may need to be resized, though. Or make your own stuff, you did well with the poleaxe and polehammer. ;)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on October 29, 2007, 08:42:35 PM
Calradia at War has some nice hammers (I think they are from Stone Dude's weapon pack), maybe you could use them... may need to be resized, though. Or make your own stuff, you did well with the poleaxe and polehammer. ;)

Two more hammers sent ... we should be good for now.

I don't know if what I was doing counts as "make my own" ... Except for the wooden mallet, I've just been messing with elements of Native items.  A little cut-and-paste, a little selective rescale.  More like "rework" than "make".
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: Fisheye on October 29, 2007, 11:10:36 PM
Are you adding scabbards to Raptor's swords?
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on October 30, 2007, 02:01:19 AM
Are you adding scabbards to Raptor's swords?

There's a pack of scabbards for them in TLD. I'll fix the scale of those to conform with the changed sizes of the Albion swords and add.

Once that is done and the new hammers implemented, I only need to change the install so that it becomes ready for inclusion in other mods, ie adding an ini file so that the meshes are read from mod resources and reducing the python files to only the weapon listings (so that they can be easily pasted into the native weapons section of other mods items files). With that, I think I can wrap up this mod, at least for v.894.

EDIT: no, more things are in the works...
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.5 (SEMI-FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 08, 2007, 05:36:56 PM
V1.6 is out, the final one (although I expect to have to do some tweaking, and will add non-native stuff like the raptor swords).

The version description:

v1.6  -   FINAL MAJOR VERSION (only tweaks and add-ons from here on)
Replaced Maul, Sledgehammer and Warhammer (the stone hammers) with better models by Ron Losey, added modified clone meshes for weapons that previously worked with the same model (like great sword/war sword), shrunk knifes and daggers, lengthened the "sword" slightly to better conform to median (rather than average) length for medieval arming swords, tweaked many stats. Source files are now only weapon lists for copy/pasting into the python items file.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.6 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 08, 2007, 08:37:34 PM
I hate to pour cold water on an otherwise well-built project, but...

- Your "war sword" looks like "giant rapier" ... blade is too thin to support its own leverage, it would bend or break if used.  Japan had some greatswords that were thin like that, but they were single-edge with heavily reinforced spines ... not diamond cross-section like a double-edge blade.  (Most of the M&B native weapons were massively over-size ... the greatswords were really not, just their stats were screwed up.)

- the peasant knives are still huge.  "kyber knife" is still the size of a machete, only wider and the grip is too small.  The "peasant knife" is like 13 inches of blade ... too large to use in a kitchen, for sure, and just slightly larger than the one Jim Bowie made famous at the Alamo.

- that boar spear looks kind of crazy.  It would pass for Japanese kama-yari if the ears were sharp, but it looks nothing like a European boar spear.

I'll see what I can do with the boar spear, when I'm looking over the stats.  Might have a talk with the knives.  I'm not even sure how to fix that sword ... and even if I do come up with an answer, it will probably require a lot of crazy stuff on the scabbards and such.  I may find more obvious bugs when I look a little longer.

Going to need some time to think about this one.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.6 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 09, 2007, 01:08:48 AM
I hate to pour cold water on an otherwise well-built project, but...

OK, no problemo. Some blemishes are to be expected.

I'll reduce the knifes further. What blade length should I be aiming at here?

Regarding the War Sword, it would be easy to broaden the blade a bit (Wings is my friend), will get to it when I get home today. I just hope I can do it with the scabbard as well, I had some problems when messing with scabbards in Wings. Maybe just broadening the whole thing slightly would work?

Is it just the War Sword or is the Greatsword out of proportion too?

The native great and war swords were quite oversized too: they had a blade length of 125 cm. I haven't found any mention of a medieval greatsword that long anywhere. Renaissance twohanders, yes, but not greatswords.

As for the boar spear... yeah, it was a quick and dirty fix. Still, apart from the wings not being pointed and a bit too long, it's not that far off, is it?

(http://images.outdoorinteractive.net/mgen/430117_d.jpg)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.6 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 09, 2007, 02:34:18 AM
German zweihander, Anglo-Saxon greteswerd (sword of war), Renaissance two-handers ... same bloody thing.  A big two-handed sword is a big two-handed sword.  Big two-handed swords appeared from time to time, but were really only popular in times and places where stopping heavily armored opponents and/or armored horse was commonly necessary.  (Mid-Renaissance being such a time.)  There are only so many ways to build a big sword, and they had pretty much tried all of them long before the Renaissance.  Methinks you split hairs on a definition that was never actually that clear.  ("Greatsword", after all, was a misspelling of the Anglo-Saxon "Greteswerd" - which just translates as "sword of war/battle sword/military sword".)

In the case of the Native ones, even if you wanted some with shorter blades, you can only shrink the cross-section of the blade by so much.  Just shorten it by a bit ... I'll send you some examples when I can, to show you what I mean.

------------------------

I sent you a sample boar spear... with explanations for the various changes. (Check your e-mail.)  Barbed head, and much wider head than normal for spears, longer shaft between the point and the wings, crude spike on the reverse point to drive into the ground ... The one I sent you was crude too, but it conveys the basic concepts of a boar spear. 

The ears on that one in the picture would pass through the same hole as the point and fail to stop the pig, and/or the pig could back away and free himself.  No reverse spike to drive into the ground, so setting your spear to absorb the charge would not hold.  Anyone using that weapon on a boar would be killed.

I'll try to clean up the one I sent you ... it had a few things I still didn't like.  I'll take care of that when I work on the knives and such.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.6 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 09, 2007, 01:41:06 PM
OK, added in your boar spear and widened the blade only (and the scabbard) of the sword of war by 15%, it does look better now. As for the knifes, I'm not sure what to do with them. The dagger is OK, I think.

The peasant and Khyber knifes, I could shrink/shorten another 20%. The peasant knife will then have a 23 cm blade. That's about the length of my own kitchen knife, so I guess that's OK.

The Khyber knife will have a 33 cm blade, and that might still be too much. I'm not sure what it's supposed to represent.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.6 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 09, 2007, 05:37:59 PM
I'll have a talk with the knives ... see if I can reshape the blades without distorting the handles too badly.  I'll get those to you as soon as I can.

I cleaned up the boar spear a bit too ... I'll send it when I send the knives.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.6 (FINAL)
Post by: mtarini on November 10, 2007, 11:28:11 AM
I'll send it when I send the knives.

Make sure to send them handle-first
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.6 (FINAL)
Post by: hayate666 on November 10, 2007, 12:29:51 PM
I've tried installing the mod, but when loading the item_kinds1 from the RCM, I get an RGL error stating "unexpected end of archive". I've tried reinstalling, but the problem persists. Perhaps something is messed up in the items_kinds1 file?
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.6 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 10, 2007, 01:30:51 PM
Hmmm... it MIGHT have something to do with removing the stats for two Albion swords I've rescaled from the end of the file. Those, and all other of Raptors Albion sword package will appear, rescaled to correct measurements in a Deluxe Edition of RNWS later on.

v1.61 is just about ready for release anyway. I'll remove those two from the source file and recompile, that should fix any problems with the item1 files.

It will be up within minutes.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 10, 2007, 01:49:44 PM
And v1.61 is up:

v1.61 - Bugfix: the RCM item1 file of v1.6 was broken, fixed now. Broadened the blade and scabbard of the war sword by 15%, replaced the boar spear, peasant knife and Khyber knife with models by Ron Losey, implemented the reading from module installation - RNWS no longer replaces or interferes with original native files or with mods not set to use RNWS.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 10, 2007, 08:20:50 PM
Just a couple of bugs in the stats:

- one, the new warhammer and great hammer need to be set to pierce damage.  It's more logical, as those are certainly not in the non-lethal category.  Also, for balance, giving players such an impressive non-lethal weapon is unbalancing.

- two, your short-sword made from the broadsword ... the damage is currently nothing.  Set it to swing damage (40, cut).  A good, heavy short sword cuts very nearly as much as a longer blade - it trades reach for speed, but doesn't give up that much damage in the process.  (My brother and I were splitting blocks of ice with Chinese dao and Roman gladius - 18 inch blades would cut as much as a 27 inch katana, sometimes more.)

And your broken end of file was because you forgot the little bracket ] at the end. 

Also, you should probably distribute the whole Native module_item.py file with your changes made (and just a comment where you started changing things), rather than just part ... cut-and-paste is very annoying, if anyone needs to recompile this.

Be sure and get the latest RCM stats on the bows when you do ... I didn't check, but if you're not sure, it's:

http://rapidshare.com/files/67733275/RCM-Native_894_versionB.zip.html

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: hayate666 on November 11, 2007, 11:03:21 AM
Perhaps a little "How to" guide for installing would be nice. I haven't got a clue how to install the new version so it loads as a different module.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 12, 2007, 10:12:36 AM
But... there was a readme, wasn't it?

It should have detailed instructions on how to install. Did I forget to include it?
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: sdog on November 12, 2007, 11:48:32 AM
just downloaded rnwsv161.zip from the repository, and it really doesn't seem to include a readme.

(It's a pitty, as wanted to make a fun joke about many people not being able to see readmes on their computers, due to an effort of M$ to keep disturbing and confusing information away from them. This is the only explanation for the behaviour of about 15% of forum members in mod related threads, i could find yet.)

ps.: i'm checking the zip on a linux machnie, so there really doesn't seem to be a readme included.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 12, 2007, 12:14:01 PM
How embarrassing :-[

I'll upload it at once.

EDIT: Done.

Text (corrected for errors discovered below in the thread):

***REALISTIC NATIVE WEAPON SIZES v1.61 by THE YOGI***
   -FINAL VERSION FOR M&B v0.894-

-INSTALLATION-

NATIVE:
Unzip the files into the mod folder you want to use RNWS with. If this
is not Native, you cannot use the compiled item1.txt files and the module.ini  files
(for RCM and vanilla). If it is Native, back up and remove the original item1.txt and
module.ini files and rename the set of files you want to use (RCM or vanilla) to item1.txt
and module.ini. Now you're good to go!

OTHER MODULES:
The Python source files are only weapon lists for copy/pasting into the module_items.py
file. This is to make it easier to integrate RNWS into other mods. After you've done
pasting over the native weapons stats in module_items.py, compile the mod.

You must also change the following lines in your module.ini file;

from

load_resource = weapon_meshes1
load_resource = weapon_meshes_b
load_resource = weapon_meshes_c

to

load_mod_resource = weapon_meshes1
load_mod_resource = weapon_meshes_b
load_mod_resource = weapon_meshes_c

And you're done!
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: hayate666 on November 12, 2007, 01:37:45 PM
When talking to the weaponsmith in Zendar, I get two RGL errors stating "Unable to find mesh war_sword" and "Unable to find mesh great_hammer". I'm using the RCM version of your mod. There also is a typo in the name of the poleaxe. It says "Pollaxe". Perhaps it's an admin's tool or something? ;)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 12, 2007, 05:13:16 PM
"Pollaxe"  is the correct spelling for that weapon.  Originally used like "pollaxe lance".  "Poll" being an old-English term for the head of an axe or hammer, hence poll-axe, as in "having an axe head"

The descriptive expression "pole-axe" (as in "axe with a polearm handle") was not adopted until well after such weapons were out of use.  George Silver ("Paradoxes of Defence", 1599) referred to them as "battle axe, halberd, or black bill, or such like weapons of weight".

It's like "chainmail" being a term only adopted after about 1800, well after maille armors were out of common use.  Only a historian would know that.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 13, 2007, 03:22:45 AM
When talking to the weaponsmith in Zendar, I get two RGL errors stating "Unable to find mesh war_sword" and "Unable to find mesh great_hammer". I'm using the RCM version of your mod. There also is a typo in the name of the poleaxe. It says "Pollaxe". Perhaps it's an admin's tool or something? ;)

Hmmm.... I just checked the weapon_meshes1.brf file in the package and the war_sword and great_hammer are there, and the error indicates they are properly called for in the items file. So only thing I can think of is that the mod.ini file doesn't give correct loading instructions. Are you using the RCM-mod.ini (renamed to mod.ini) file that was provided in the package?
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: hayate666 on November 13, 2007, 06:49:54 AM
Ron:

Nice trivia. Didn't know that one. It still sounds like a useful admintool though :green:


Yogi:

Yep. I've done everything that was mentioned on a fresh install of native 0.894. I'm using the RCM-mod.ini renamed to mod.ini. Wrote over everything with the same file name and all that.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 13, 2007, 08:02:51 AM
Actually, I think I typed in the "pollaxe" reference without even thinking, and Yogi copied it.

Haven't had time to check your little bug there ... I'll try to confirm it (and/or run it down) tomorrow, if and when I get some time. 

Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 13, 2007, 01:50:43 PM
I was unable to reproduce your bug when applying your mod to a fresh install of Native. I have no idea what could be the problem, except that if those meshes cannot be found, then either the mod is not looking in the right place or there's something wrong with the weapon_meshes1.brf file.

Check the contents of your Native/Resources folder. Are there three weapon_meshes files there?

Will keep looking, nevertheless. Can anyone else reproduce this bug?

BTW, regarding the pollaxe thing, when I got the models from Ron, I too thought he had misspellt, so I checked it out on the net, found that pollaxe was the more correct spelling and went with it.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: hayate666 on November 13, 2007, 04:35:48 PM
I checked and every mesh you mentioned is where it's supposed to be. Tried redownloading, reinstalling again, removing every trace of Mount and Blade from the face of my computer and reinstalling and last but not least, removing every trace of Mount and Blade from the face of my computer, redownloading and reinstalling. I started a new game every time. When I get the RGL errors, I can see most items in the inventory of the weaponsmith. Just the Greathammer and a Sword of War are missing. Yet, at the start of the game no weaponsmith has a complete inventory, so it may very well be there's more missing.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 13, 2007, 07:19:02 PM
OK, this is really strange.  ???

I do not doubt that you have this problem, but I've done mostly the same as you (installed my mod on a fresh copy of native) and it works perfectly. Something must be screwed up with the instructions then.

EDIT: I think I found a problem with the instructions. I wrote there to rename the file RCM-module.ini to "mod.ini" and it should be "module.ini". :-[  If you left the original module.ini intact and renamed "RCM-module.ini" to mod.ini, then what you describe should happen.

Could this be the reason?

If that did not help...

war_sword and great_hammer are meshes that exist on late versions of the RNWS weapon_meshes1.brf file but not on the original file in the Commonres folder. Therfore, it seems for some reason I cannot understand your game is reading from there, and not from the resource subfolder in the Native folder.

Could you copy everything from the .ini file you're using beginning with the first line starting with "load_resource" down to the end of the file, and post here?


Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: hayate666 on November 13, 2007, 07:42:28 PM
The first reason was right on the money. The damn faulty instructions were the cause of the problem. ::)

After the 6th reinstall today and after using your latest insight on the instructions everything worked and showed up correctly. At least the instructions have been tested thoroughly now. Tomorrow I will test it out further. See if anything fishy comes up ;)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 13, 2007, 10:09:01 PM
Dang ... I looked right at that and didn't even notice.  Guess I just thought everybody knew what he was talking about.

Classic.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: hayate666 on November 14, 2007, 02:40:11 PM
At least the hassle with the instructions was completely worth it! I've tested several different weapons and playstyles today and I'm really impressed by the new weapon sizes. It sort of balances melee combat. Weapons are notably good against different things now. There's especially a big difference for mounted combat. Not everything is long enough to use easily. A pollaxe or glaive is much better than before, because there are fewer weapons that pose a threat to their reach. It feels fair now that they have a slower speed. All in all, combat feels a lot better and more logical.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 14, 2007, 03:24:17 PM
Well, sorry about the faulty instructions, and I'm happy you're enjoying RNWS! It's good to know my effort has not been wasted! BTW, the slowness vs reach thing depends equally much on RCM. It really does elevate the M&B experience to a whole new level.

Although for RCM Native, I'd recommend purging Plate Armour from the troops file, it just unbalances things greatly. In the era of plate, more regular soldiers would have special armour-piercing weapons. In an otherwise mostly X-XIV century setting, those cans are next to invincible - but then again it would be like bringing an M1 to WW2.





Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 14, 2007, 06:59:38 PM
Agreed ... except that RCM Native was never intended to be a playable mod.  I created it as a dev tool, and never expected anybody to try to play it long-term.

To make it playable, weapons loadouts on troops would have to be completely reworked, either plate armor removed or its use greatly expanded (depending on the desired setting).

But that was left to real mods.  It is generally beyond the scope of the RCM.  (Although I've helped set that up for several mods too.)
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: hayate666 on November 15, 2007, 01:57:07 AM
Of course the RCM works! I've said it so often that I assumed it goes without saying :green: If the plate armours go, doesn't that mean that several anti-plate weapons have to go as well?
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 15, 2007, 02:51:08 AM
Not really.  War hammers and the like were used against maille and brigandine armors long before articulated plate joints came into use.

Just that hardened steel plate armors with fully articulated joints made such weapons a necessity rather than an option... and therefore a standard weapon instead of a rarity.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on November 15, 2007, 09:28:35 AM
Well, simply purging plate from the troops file is the easiest way of turning Native RCM from a developers tool to a playable mod. The other way would be to completely overhaul all troop loadouts and go for a consistent early Renaissance panoply. Some items would also have to be added, for example there's only one Native helmet which can be contemporary with full plate is one of the bascinets (not the coical one, which just screams XIV century).

So, much easier to take away full plate and substitute with coat of plate/brigandine.
Title: Re: Realistic Size Arms for Native - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on November 15, 2007, 05:10:46 PM
"Playable" being relative.  There would still be roughly one gazillion things that were horribly unbalanced.  By the time they were all cleaned up, you would have a complete mod.

Better to just build real mods and forget about patchwork and half-measures.
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on September 22, 2008, 02:06:53 AM
After having a look at v1.003, I've decided that weapons are still oversized in Native (most swords have a good 15-20 cm extra length), and so a new version of Realistic Native Weapon sizes is called for.

However, at the moment there are no editing tools that work and no module system. As soon as that is corrected, there will be a RNWS for v1.x
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: DaBlade on September 22, 2008, 11:35:49 AM
Glad to hear you'll make a new version for 1.003.
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: virus_found on September 28, 2008, 05:52:39 AM
oh, I second that :) longing for it
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on January 26, 2009, 09:41:15 AM
This is just to reassure people that I still intend to update the package, but I'm still at the loss for usable software. Specifically, I can't see how to do this without a version of BRFEdit compatible with v1.011. I need that length tool.
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Perdikas on February 12, 2009, 03:10:35 PM
Do you also, still intend to re-work RR_Raptor's weapon collection? Once the length tool does become available, I would greatly appreciate it!  :)
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on February 13, 2009, 01:23:42 AM
I can include the swords of the raptor pack. The scabbards, however, are property of TLD, so I can't add them into a package. I might however use resized generic scabbards for them. We'll see, it's a question of workload and spare time (huge and small respectively). :)
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Perdikas on February 13, 2009, 01:52:04 AM
Ofcourse, I understand. Either way, I am glad to hear it.  :)
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on February 13, 2009, 02:19:15 AM
Hey, there are some replacement weapons for some of the Native stuff in the fantasy-theme project I'm working on. 

Last sampler release:
http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,1653.msg33588.html#msg33588

They're not specifically "realistic size", as some of them are deliberately fantasy, and others are taken off of the most extreme examples in history ... but at least a number of them look more like the real thing than some of the Native ones do.  The spears are spear-length, the short swords are short swords, and so forth.  The lengths in the module_items.py file are correct. 

You're welcome to use them ... just scrap a bunch of the very ugly Native models and use these instead.  They're low-poly, and the lines are clean.

Other than that ... considering the current issues with BRFEdit, the only way you can do what you're doing requires you to export every model, pull it up in Wings 3D or some such, and rework it.  Not impossible, but probably more work than it is worth.
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on March 02, 2009, 05:57:51 AM
Thanks Ron, I'll be sure to grab those if this ever gets flying again. I've not forgotten the excellent work you did for the last RNWS release.

At the moment it's looking bleak though. It's been so long since v1.011 came out that I'm beginning to doubt Thorgrim is ever going to update BREFEdit to be fully compatible with it.
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: LCJr on May 26, 2009, 12:42:10 AM
Guess you still haven't realized you can open the new weapons in the older versions of BRFEdit.  I used 0.8.3b since it was the only old version I could find.  It'll spit errors at you and it will be untextured but you can check the length.  And of course once you know the length then you can make your adjustments with 0.8.9.5.

(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3579/brfedit.th.jpg) (http://img38.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brfedit.jpg)
mace_b from weapons_e.brf

Link to 0.8.3b courtesy of Thorgrim.  http://members.iinet.net.au/~dstent/mnb/BRFEdit0-8-3b.exe
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on June 01, 2009, 03:03:28 PM
I had no idea!

Thanks man! You might just have saved RNWS!
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Lord British on June 01, 2009, 10:02:30 PM
I had no idea!

Thanks man! You might just have saved RNWS!

It's not the easy way to measure lenghts without seeing textures, so you probably should export all the meshes in .obj, then import those in the 0.8.3b version.
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: onepostpony on June 02, 2009, 07:47:29 AM
Can you use the SWUP as a base? http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,21780.msg1373081.html#msg1373081

The newest version doesn't even need new textures.
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: The Yogi on June 03, 2009, 01:55:48 PM
I'll be sure to take a look at it. RNWS for .960 was a bit of a SWUP in and of itself because Ron Losey contributed several models (also using native textures) which replaced several obviously absurd/flawed native weapons, like the stone mallets, the pollaxe without a spear head etc. Since I'm uncertain if I could easily reinsert those models into a version for v.1011, starting with SWUP seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Ron Losey on June 03, 2009, 04:57:40 PM
Start with the weapons I built for the proposed fantasy-theme mod.  A few are really fantasy, but many of the axes, maces and such would make good replacements.  They're clean, low-poly, and using Native textures, and although they are based on models from various times and places, most are at least reasonable in size and appearance.
Title: Re: Realistic Native Weapon Sizes (RNWS) - current version is 1.61 (FINAL)
Post by: Conners on April 27, 2010, 01:23:23 AM
Is there any plans to port this, or to make it again for Warband? Sorry for necro posting, I just noticed it high on the list of mods. I see Yogi posted sometime in March, not too long ago, so I was wondering if he might see this and have interest.