MBX

Mount&Blade Expansion => Mod Graveyard => Topic started by: Scion on January 09, 2007, 10:15:24 AM

Title: Dark Ages of Calradia ( Dead )
Post by: Scion on January 09, 2007, 10:15:24 AM
(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8643/poster014bg.th.jpg) (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=poster014bg.jpg)

Sand, fields, cracked skulls stained in blood. Dark Ages of Calradia is a large modification of Mount & Blade, set in the lands of Calradia many centuries before what we know as the native Calradia found in the original version.

The situation is tense, the swadian intruders have grown strong and are threatening the Calradian alliance from the north-west. The primitive khudans are literally tearing eastern Calradia down, only held back by the old calradian bloodlust and cynicm the highlander calradians possess. The halfnaked radoghirs, poor and primitive, but large in numbers, have managed to push back the sunonians former advancement - reclaiming the holy desert waste. The radoghir savageness seems to  stand up to the rich and well organized army of the People of Suno. If anybody succeeds to overrun the calradians, the lands of mighty Veluca is what they will stand in front of. Close combat specialists, fighting ancient style, will be an almost impossible task, even for the zealous, fanatical swadians.

It is the dark ages. Choose your side, make your mark on this world. The history of Calradia is written in rivers of blood.



(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1333/sc01pc0.jpg)


Current projects:



Contributors:



Planned integrated mods:

(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8500/map2pn0.th.jpg) (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=map2pn0.jpg)
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 09, 2007, 10:32:58 AM
History of Calradia
Under development



Swadians
Strong, fanatical, heartless, manipulative.

Main leader: The Allfather

From the old coasts of Swadia, Great Mesah landed 16 years ago at the banks of the calradian coast near Tihr. Mesah`s huge army swept over Tihr like an immense wave, making Tihr falling easily into the grip of Mesah. Calradia was hit hard by the loss of her`s prospering trading center, and there was no doubt in Praven that they were dealing with a long planned invasion. When Mesah reached Sargoth few weeks later, they encountered an unexpected, though resistance. Even though swadian soliders claimed both the walls and the main gate of Sargoth, they were outsmarted by Chamon, marshall of Praven. Launching the trap, the majority of the swadians were right down slaughtered. They say Chamon and his men fought so corageous they made Mesah so scared he attempted to escape the final engagement. He died with a calradian spear in his heart, and a staggering fright in his eyes. The walls of Sargoth was still calradian.
Few months later, the kings of old Swadia shipped their forces in even greater numbers under the command of a religious leader named Qidan. His intolerance and cynical values were demonstraded in villages lying towards Sargoth, executing whole populations. This time the swadians faced the calradians at the fields outside of Sargoth, the calradian army lead by the king of Sargoth, the king of Praven, and his two sons. The calradian army cold however not match the professional swadian soliders. First losing, then tragedy, massacre. The walls of Sargoth could not withstand the machinery of war Qidan brought, and this time the city fell. The defender, marshall Chamon, was tortured to death in public few days after the swadian conquest. New Swadia had now a powerful position in Calradia, being a threat to all lands inside the large calradian mountains.
Zin fell five years later into the hands of Samon. The People of Suno, velucans and calradians had to give her up after five hard years of a very bloody war. The grip of the religious around this city.was to be unique and  unmatched in New Swadia; not even the old calradian loyalists in Sargoth faced the perverted destiniy of the average calradian in Zin.

Religious laws were immediately imposed in the whole region after the fall of Zin, by orders from the Allfather of All in Old Swadia. Qidan has, under blessing from both the swadian kings and the Allfather, been set to rule New Swadia.

Allfather is the Allfather of all Calradia. It is a deadly sin to reject the Allmighty and the Allfather, and them who do, should burn a thousand eternities in the flames of hell.




Khudans
Isolated, raiders, nordic, barbaric

Among the new kingdoms in Calradia, the Kingdom of Khuda is the oldest. Over a century ago, north eastern barbarians went from random plundering to warfare. Emerging from across the eastern mountains, they managed to get a foothold in the east-calradian region named Khudan. The barbarians achieved some grotesque victories during the first years, and finally they could establish the Kingdom of Khuda. Khudan kings have never had the ambition, nor personality, to be a large threat to central Calradia. But their soliders are among the most brutal savages known to man. Calradian chiefs have had an ongoing war with the khudan kings since their one century old advancement, and have yet to drive them back into a defensive position.



Map
This is under development and experimental.

(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8940/mapsc01we1.th.jpg) (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapsc01we1.jpg)
(http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/1416/mapsc02be0.th.jpg) (http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapsc02be0.jpg)
(http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/1331/mapsc03kc0.th.jpg) (http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapsc03kc0.jpg)
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1612/mapsc04nz9.th.jpg) (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapsc04nz9.jpg)

Very experimental agricultural texture.
(http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/6840/mapsc05yb6.th.jpg) (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapsc05yb6.jpg)
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Brigadier Hussey on January 11, 2007, 05:14:36 AM
Oooh grand are you back to work on the mod now Scion?
SOmebody give that man a sub forum!
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Leprechaun on January 11, 2007, 12:06:03 PM
Is looking nice!

Woo, first post! Hey all, good luck with your mod, Scion.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 11, 2007, 12:14:57 PM
Yeah I`ll continue as much as time and motivation permits.

I don`t need a subforum, in fact except from the coolness of having your own subforum, I wouldn`t know what to do with it really. Anyway, I`ll try to keep important updates and previews in my first two posts from now on.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Fisheye on January 13, 2007, 08:56:53 AM
Yeah that makes things easier to find.

Really looking forward to the artwork on this one.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 14, 2007, 10:09:30 AM
Good to see you here, fisheye!

I`m seriously thinking about integrating Craftmod into Dark Ages of Calradia. Winter has pretty much granted me access to the whole mod, and will even be helping me out with implementing it. Some stuff to note:

Feel free to argument whether the mod or parts of the mod doesn`t fit into Dark Ages of Calradia. Me for once think it`s an exciting idea, giving a great starting point from adding the depth I so deeply desire for this mod.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 15, 2007, 12:54:32 AM
Feel free to argument whether the mod or parts of the mod doesn`t fit into Dark Ages of Calradia. Me for once think it`s an exciting idea, giving a great starting point from adding the depth I so deeply desire for this mod.

I think it would fit rather well in. At least the *crafting* part of it.

I have some suspicion that the gathering of resources, such as mining, woodchopping and the like, might be a tad unsuited to the setting however. I'd instead suggest that these resources are randomly dropped by caravans and the like instead, keeping on with the more brutal feeling of the game where you'd be forced to seek these resources by hunting down caravans to fund your crafting efforts.

Perhaps these Caravan Drops don't even need to be random, but caravans carrying specific goods could transport these items between the cities. You would then have the opportunity to track down and destroy these specific caravans that carry the items you need. That would add another strategic layer to the otherwise random brutal layer.

Of course these crafting supplies could also be sold in stores. Either way, I'm not perfectly certain that the gathering of raw material would suit whole dark feeling of the mod.

I may be wrong, but that's my two cents.

Edit: And keeping on with your suggestion to have the crafting gameplay separate from the other gameplay, I'd guess that the crafting supplies dropped by the caravans could be used as normal trading commodities for those that have no interest in using them for crafting. Preferably, like in vanilla, with a varying range of cost in the different towns and cities.

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 15, 2007, 01:09:55 AM
Thanks for those two, I agree with all of it. I have already, before considering CraftMod, implemented resources as Wood Camps, Iron Mine ++ where they have a number of people, a production rate etc, and they will send a resource train from the resource to the city with a load of this resource, for example wood. This could be where to get it. Or a caravan, they sometimes ship raw materials between cities. This has already been implemented.  :)

My main concern with the original woodchopping and resource gathering in CraftMod will turn down the large-scale feeling it is supposed to have. Still, wood chopping in particular would be fully possible to carry out realistically. To make that one thing you need instead of raiding a wood camp with a medium army to get that one shaft  ;)

What I will do is go for the crafting and put the resource gathering on hold; probably find an alternative way to find the resources.


Another big question is how to do the cities. As in the Schattenländer mod (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php?topic=88.msg214#new) I want the cities to feel huge, yet I want them to be attackable. I want it all  :P As I see it I have two possibilities:
Or a mix of the two, but this is a difficult issue. In Medieval Total War 2 they have a decent playable size on cities when you attack them, yet they are unrealistically small for their population numbers. But still, that might be the right way; to make them large enough in one scene. This will cause lag on the more unfortunate machines but might also give better results.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 15, 2007, 01:29:26 AM
Another big question is how to do the cities. As in the Schattenländer mod (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php?topic=88.msg214#new) I want the cities to feel huge, yet I want them to be attackable. I want it all  :P As I see it I have two possibilities:
  • One large scene. Will lag on older graphic cards, especially city fights, but gives the best results and is fast to implement.
  • Menu hierarchy, the Schattenländer way. Some menu option sends you to a very specific part of the town. Can make implementation difficult for city battles and so on.
Or a mix of the two, but this is a difficult issue. In Medieval Total War 2 they have a decent playable size on cities when you attack them, yet they are unrealistically small for their population numbers. But still, that might be the right way; to make them large enough in one scene. This will cause lag on the more unfortunate machines but might also give better results.

In order to have a siege that feels huge, and still works decently in concerns for both AI and Framerate I'd suggest that the player only participates in a part of it, or let it be played in stages such as the siege in Storymod, or with a choice of a position to take in the battle, such as the castle defence - also found in storymod.

If we use a common scenario, where ladders are placed against the walls, doors are being hammered down by battering rams and chunks of stuff are thrown into the city by massive war machines. It's impossible to properly portray all of that within the scope of a single M&B battle.

However..!

Letting the player take part in scaling the walls and fighting from ladders is possible.

Letting the player fight through the gatehouse after the gates are breached is also possible.

Having an epic battle through the streets of the city, ending a large bloodbath in the city centre works as well.

Either way, with the current state of M&B AI, and graphics I don't know if it's practical to attempt a full scale siege that's supposed to work dynamically within a war system.

Were it up to me, I'd go for a scenario where you lead your forces through the already breached gates in a fight to reach the center city (Think, Total War). That seems like a good plan considering your Swadian history story too, and seems like one of those things that are the most practical for the AI and the battle dynamics.

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 15, 2007, 05:43:34 AM
Hm wonderful idea. I can see it now, I haven`t played too many other mods since I started modding so I am sort of not-up-to-date. It could be menu driven; the attacking of walls and gates will probably not be well portrayed anyway. So let`s see at an example scenario.

You hold a siege at Praven; you have 300 men, they have 300.  At attack you get the following menu options:

Building of siege weapons should probably also be a part of the menu system. They have a completed percent, and when they`re done, you can use them. War machines can also be brought, like catapults; they will also be menu driven.

But what happen when the walls are taken? You stand in the main street, maybe you wish to take another route. Maybe another menu should appear.

I`m not sure about this.

Anyway, in the end you should enter the castle and fight your way through the guards. Finally you will face the city gouvenor; he will not fight but you will have to talk to him. Here you can decide different outcomes: killing him, prisoning him, torture him, executing him publicly or letting him live. When this step is finished the city is taken.

When defendig a city, a similar pattern is followed, but it will be more automated because the attacker takes most of the decisions.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 15, 2007, 06:58:17 AM
You've got a lot on your plate then. Especially if you plan to have various attackable cities and different styles of cities, meaning that the scripts would likely have to be customized for many of them. I remember you saying that scripting is not your main interest, and what you're introducing with those ideas is a whole heap of forking blocks of scripts.

Anyways, I can't judge how much you can handle, but take care, and don't choke yourself with ambition.

That said, your ideas are good, and could no doubt work. I have suspicions that picking various routes to fight through the city might be a tad redundant however. Also, considering the pathfinding of the enemy AI, fighting in the slums might not work very well.

Of course you would not have to portray the slums with winding alleyways, debris and broken buildings, but then having the slums in a battle to begin with would be pointless.

For the sake of gameplay I'd suggest that battles within cities should be played out on wide open streets, plazas and the like, with as few objects as possible to cause problems for the pathfinding.

So picking paths in the city (In battle) isn't something I'd consider worth the trouble.

As for the attack options, where you'd be able to attack the gates or walls and the like - those are good. Barring perhaps the choice to maintain the siege. To me, the arrival of the player and his extra troops at the scene would constitute those additional reinforcements the sieging army needed to assault the city. So, when you get there, there would be no more camping outside the gates - Instead there would be shouting, blood and glory.

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 15, 2007, 07:32:00 AM
Hey, I always choke myself with ambition. My weakness really. But in contrast to other parts of scripting, this one should turn out to be quite fun. As I see it, the main work lies in creation of scenes. But I had in mind making such large cities anyway. While the cities might be quite different from each other, they would in this case be quite generic; you have certain entry points at where troops are spawned (top at the wall, in front of the gate etc). A code should be pretty generic relative to cities.

I agree different routes can be redundant; the basic idea there is to add a choice after you are inside the walls without having the whole city as a scene. It could equally be like in native Zendar, where you meet a wall and can say "travel here" sort of. The amount of strategy here is of course limited, but what I want more than strategy is realism. I *think this is a good way to do it, yet this particular step could easily be swapped with only a "march to city center" choice.

Attacking forts and villages would probably be a reduction of this system. For forts there would be once scene only, for villages not even walls to attack.

Quote
As for the attack options, where you'd be able to attack the gates or walls and the like - those are good. Barring perhaps the choice to maintain the siege. To me, the arrival of the player and his extra troops at the scene would constitute those additional reinforcements the sieging army needed to assault the city. So, when you get there, there would be no more camping outside the gates - Instead there would be shouting, blood and glory.
Yes, the question is whether you are the one to hold the siege or you join another party holding the siege. This should be the first thing to be sorted out I guess. Hmm.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 15, 2007, 07:38:10 AM
True enough. I admit I took for granted that the player and his meagre forces would be too few to conduct an actual siege against a big city. Raiding towns and attacking forts seem like something the player would be able to initiate and conduct on his own, but I assumed that sieges would only be done after a friendly siege party had reached the hostile city and besieged it for a while.

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 15, 2007, 07:45:42 AM
Okay, then I see. Well, a lot of plans assumes that the player can lead a siege and a big army. If you have a small amount of men attacking a heavily defended city, you will generally be slaughtered before you can overtake the walls. From the stats I`m planning, you won`t be able to solo a huge defending city for yourself anyway   ;) so it is your (stupid) decision to attack havily defended Veluca with your ten militia guys.  But still, guess you should have the choice.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 15, 2007, 09:52:56 AM
These are all good ideas, I back the idea of having the city in sections as it will make it player friendly as not everybody can run M&B flawlessly.
Also perhaps with resources you can get them according to the amount of men you have in your party, as the more men you have, the more trees can be cut down.
Possibly crafting should be able to allow for 'new' suits of armour that are unbuyable?
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 15, 2007, 10:18:44 AM
Also perhaps with resources you can get them according to the amount of men you have in your party, as the more men you have, the more trees can be cut down.
This is not a bad idea... if I go for personal woodchopping, this will be present.

Possibly crafting should be able to allow for 'new' suits of armour that are unbuyable?
Yes, the crafted armor will be different and unique, but probably more primitive/simpler; no uniforms or fancyness. Probably.

New screens of the map in the second post. The Khudan area has already been de-extremed, so I know it is a little over the top.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 15, 2007, 10:37:14 AM
Is it yet possible to make troops very unique stat wise? Ie all Swadians have higher weapon skills and shielding then their counterparts, while the Radoghir's have more althetics and power strike?
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 15, 2007, 10:54:05 AM
I`m not sure, but general differences lies in how they wage war, and their troop types. All weapons have higher damage, and armor have higher defense stats.

Typical elite cavalry or close combat troops have for factions:
Radoghirs - fast horses, excellent physics, almost no armor
Swadians - heavily armored, lances, good physics
Calradians - well armored, more close combat weapons, good physics
Velucans - Foot soliders, well armored, good physics
People of Suno, Uxhal - Heavily armored, good weapons, average physics
Sarnath - same, but good physics
Khudans - Foot soliders, some armor, strong and agile.

So Khudans and Radoghirs would be very similar, but have different fighting styles: Khudans are footmen, radoghirs are horsemen.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Yoshiboy on January 15, 2007, 11:28:18 AM
I could help you out with the sieges if you make the resources. I'm seriously Dying to make a siege mod.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Bakustra on January 15, 2007, 11:31:38 AM
Hey- I know I'm late, but about the reasources-
is there a way to make mines and forests like forts, where you attack them? that way you could raid the area underfire. theonly things would be that there'd need to be at least a watch tower, and it would have to be untakable. (as in, kill everyone, and when you leave, they're still there.)

(first post! wooo!!)
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 15, 2007, 01:06:04 PM
I could help you out with the sieges if you make the resources. I'm seriously Dying to make a siege mod.
Give this man a gallon of coffee and let him get started :P.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: rmancrusader on January 15, 2007, 07:48:05 PM
hw will it run on a Geforce 6200 overclocked?
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Sunhawken on January 15, 2007, 09:00:00 PM
So when is the expected release date?
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Leprechaun on January 16, 2007, 03:13:31 AM
hw will it run on a Geforce 6200 overclocked?
Reasonably, like Native.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 16, 2007, 04:56:56 AM
I could help you out with the sieges if you make the resources. I'm seriously Dying to make a siege mod.
Resources? Such as models, scenes etc? That would in case be great, but we have to agree how to do it. What do you think of my current plans?

Hey- I know I'm late, but about the reasources-
is there a way to make mines and forests like forts, where you attack them? that way you could raid the area underfire. theonly things would be that there'd need to be at least a watch tower, and it would have to be untakable. (as in, kill everyone, and when you leave, they're still there.)
You can raid them and kill everybody in it, and it will become empty. If you deploy somebody there you will own it, but it`s pretty useless without a close host city as you have to send resource trains with the production back to a city, and you will probably not get as far.

Quote
hw will it run on a Geforce 6200 overclocked?
I have no way of knowing that.

Quote
So when is the expected release date?
Not soon...
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 16, 2007, 09:35:06 AM
I could help you out with the sieges if you make the resources. I'm seriously Dying to make a siege mod.
Resources? Such as models, scenes etc? That would in case be great, but we have to agree how to do it. What do you think of my current plans?
I think he means coding, we all know yoshi is a coding beast.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Yoshiboy on January 16, 2007, 10:53:40 AM
Quote
Resources? Such as models, scenes etc? That would in case be great, but we have to agree how to do it. What do you think of my current plans?

Yeah exactly. I've got a few ideas. Most are pretty similar to yours. I'd just do the normal siege stuff, catapults, siege towers, ladders. That stuff if you're too worried about resources. I'll talk to you nearer the time, once I'm a little more done with pirates.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 16, 2007, 12:53:47 PM
Okay good stuff.  :) I`m open for anything that turns out good.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 16, 2007, 04:37:42 PM
Proposals for troop names are welcome. There`s a lot of loose ends on this subject, but currently the following is planned. While some armies might be similar, this is done to grant them a flexible choice, but they have large differences stat-wise. It is a sort of merging between Forral`s suggestion to keep them very different from each other, Chel`s Expanded Gameplay mod with short but many troop trees, and my own desire to have it a little complicated  :)

Swadians

Elite
Knight - Mounted, warhorse, lance, sword and shield, fully armoured.
Brother Knight - Mounted, unarmoured horse, oneh/twoh/lances, shield, fully armoured.
Brother Footknight - One and two handed weapons, shield, fully armoured.
Sacred Executioner - Fast horse, fully armoured, two handed weapon. Very good with weapons and riding.

Regular
Swordsman - Armour in leather, sword, shield.
Spearman - Armour in leather, spear, shield.

Low Quality
Bowman - Shirt, low quality bow, onehanded sword.
Militiaman - Varied clothing, varied melee weapons.
Peasant - Civilian clothes, varied weapons.

Calradians

Elite
Knight - Mounted, warhorse, lance, sword and shield, fully armoured.
Longbowman - Leather shirt and hood, light sword, longbow.
Pikeman - Armoured, pike.
Axeman - Leather armour, axe, shield.

Regulars
Axeman
Spearman
Horseman
Archer
Ranger

Low-quality
Militiaman
Bowman
Woodsman
Peasant


People of Suno
Devided by cities

Elite
Footknight of Uxhal
Uxhal Pikeman
Uxhal Halberdier
Knight of Uxhal
Protector of Uxhal

Footknight of Suno
Slayer of the Sun
Knight of Suno
Champion of Suno

Sarnath Knight


Regulars
Uxhal Men-At-Arms
Uxhal Spearman
Uxhal Rider

Suno Archer
Suno Skirmisher
Suno Swordsman
Suno Rider


Low-quality
Uxhal Militiaman
Uxhal Horseman

Warrior of Suno
Suno Horseman

Peasant

Velucans


Elite
Celephais Swordsman
Velucan Legionary


New map screenshot in the second post by the way. Experimental farming ;)
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Yoshiboy on January 17, 2007, 03:28:08 AM
Looks great! I might have to steal some of these ideas for Pirates! :P
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 17, 2007, 04:02:20 AM
Rrrrrrrreally? Well, okay  Just don`t do it too good :P
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 17, 2007, 09:10:55 AM
I like the farmlands as seen in the new screenshot, but I wonder how they would turn out on the battlemap - if you plan them to be different at all.

Also, since my memory has kind of failed me, I'm going to have to again inquire about your thoughts to the troops.

I notice that you've separated them into ranks of Elite, Regular and Low quality. It could possibly mean that you have troops upgrade for example from "Millitiaman"->"Swordsman"->"Brother Footknight". It could also mean something I'd actually prefer seeing, that your peasants, millitiamen, and bowmen are bound to remain low quality units even within a couple of upgrades. On the other hand, your "Sacred Executioner" would start out strong to begin with - probably in high level, and be capable of getting even stronger as he gains experience.

I'll make a simple example model:

   Level 1    -    Level 2    -  Level 3 -  Level 4   -    Level 5   -  Level 6 - Level 7
Millitiaman  (Experienced)  (Veteran)  (Elite)
                                                  Executioner (Experienced) (Veteran) (Elite)

The levels as seen in my model here are not actual in-game levels but could be translated x4 or the like. They merely reflect upgrade rank. So the millitiaman you recruited in the tavern would be able to upgrade three times, and get slightly better armor and weapons, perhaps as much as some light chainmail, a decent spear and shield. Your Brother Knight, would similarly be able to upgrade thrice, however both starting and finishing in a greater level than your millitiamen.

Of course, using such a model, you'd have to make a system for unit recruitment outside of the taverns, since it would otherwise be horribly unbalanced. Something similar to the recruitment found in The Last Days might be appropriate here. In that module you could spend "influence" gained with your faction on recruiting experienced units from the various castles. Might be something to consider.

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 17, 2007, 09:49:06 AM
I had in mind not letting peasants get much stronger than within their own range. Your suggestion for leveling is very good, something I will go for.

So the idea is then that, say, a peasant can never become a knight. In fact I could like the idea to have troop trees like

Peasant -> Trained Peasant -> Watchman
              -> Peasant Archer   -> Bowman

Knights and elite troops would typically get titles instead of changing
[A more general word for Knight] -> Knight of Suno -> Champion of Suno

In general this is the same as you proposed. Same is an alternative troop tree that could be like
Peasant Level 1-> Peasant Level 2 -> Peasant Level 3
Kinght of Suno Level 1-> Kinght of Suno Level 2 -> Kinght of Suno Level 3
Champion of Suno Level 1-> Champion of Suno Level 2 -> Champion of Suno Level 3

Both could be a better way of portraying experience rather than troop type morphing. Second alternative would barely show differences in gear, because it is supposed to be the same troop but just more experienced.

Quote
Of course, using such a model, you'd have to make a system for unit recruitment outside of the taverns, since it would otherwise be horribly unbalanced. Something similar to the recruitment found in The Last Days might be appropriate here. In that module you could spend "influence" gained with your faction on recruiting experienced units from the various castles. Might be something to consider.
Yes, tavern recruitment has not been in the plans ever, if only for bandits and lawless people. You`ll get peasants to join you by speaking to them (not one by one, but for example a group of peasants). Soliders join you when taking to their leader or responsible. Similarly, rescuing people from defeat might make them want to join you. You should be able to *make them join you, with harsh persuasion.

I am not a too big fan of TLD system, the system should and will be more realistic or natural. Where TLD system is in the plans though, when you have a certain rank and authority. They won`t cost money though, but the consequences of wasting them might be elsewhere.

I like the farmlands as seen in the new screenshot, but I wonder how they would turn out on the battlemap - if you plan them to be different at all.
Well the texture can be whatever, and I think I will have a slight difference. Allthough the texture is used to describe corn fields and civilization in general, this is impossible to achieve in a satisfying way on the battlemap. It will probably be like grassland with a twist for now, and possibly be upgraded if armagan adds support for spawning in random scenes.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 17, 2007, 12:23:25 PM
As long as they have cool names like Bladesmen, Swordsmen and then Man at Arms for instance, it should work out well.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Pellidon on January 17, 2007, 01:29:00 PM
I`m not sure, but general differences lies in how they wage war, and their troop types. All weapons have higher damage, and armor have higher defense stats.

Typical elite cavalry or close combat troops have for factions:
Radoghirs - fast horses, excellent physics, almost no armor
Swadians - heavily armored, lances, good physics
Calradians - well armored, more close combat weapons, good physics
Velucans - Foot soliders, well armored, good physics
People of Suno, Uxhal - Heavily armored, good weapons, average physics
Sarnath - same, but good physics
Khudans - Foot soliders, some armor, strong and agile.

So Khudans and Radoghirs would be very similar, but have different fighting styles: Khudans are footmen, radoghirs are horsemen.
i know this is a somewhat old post, but what do you mean by physics?
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Ursca on January 17, 2007, 01:34:28 PM
He probably means physical fitness. High agility, athletics, that kind of stuff.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: rmancrusader on January 17, 2007, 06:32:01 PM
hey would u like a couple of swords? i am fairly new to wings 3d but iv become very skilled in making swords. im still improving on texturing but in a litttle bit ill show u whut im talkin about.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 18, 2007, 01:51:06 AM
I wonder, have you tried playing battles on the new world map? What I'm really wondering is how the terrain turns out, near the mountain passes while in battles. While it looks great on the map, I'm concerned that the battlemaps will turn into a mishmash of labyrinth-like of spiking hills and deep craters.

I never was perfectly certain on how the random battle terrain is generated, but it does seem to be far more hilly the closer you are to mountains. I could never quite determine if it was due to the painted terrain, or the altitude shifts between the vertexes though. All the same, if you haven't tried battling there - you should.

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 18, 2007, 02:47:52 AM
He probably means physical fitness. High agility, athletics, that kind of stuff.
That is right.

hey would u like a couple of swords? i am fairly new to wings 3d but iv become very skilled in making swords. im still improving on texturing but in a litttle bit ill show u whut im talkin about.
Yes, sounds interresting. I have a couple of hundred weapons already from luigis pack, so I`m not sure what kind of weapons I need though - I have problems already to browse through the current ones. Would be cool if you had some cool different weapons th
ough  :)

I wonder, have you tried playing battles on the new world map? What I'm really wondering is how the terrain turns out, near the mountain passes while in battles. While it looks great on the map, I'm concerned that the battlemaps will turn into a mishmash of labyrinth-like of spiking hills and deep craters.

I never was perfectly certain on how the random battle terrain is generated, but it does seem to be far more hilly the closer you are to mountains. I could never quite determine if it was due to the painted terrain, or the altitude shifts between the vertexes though. All the same, if you haven't tried battling there - you should.

-Forral-
Good point, but I think the terrible terrain generation was changed in 0.800, reducing the amount of hills (or was it just rivers that was reduced). I have not tried it suficciantly, something I should do as you say. A lot of the hilly areas are not travelable though, for example in the khudan valley you can`t just walk over the mountains, but you have to take a certain route. To  travel from for example Khuda to Dale you must travel between the two largest peaks.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 18, 2007, 10:21:37 AM
I hated those wierd bumpy maps of ages past. The new ones seem better.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 18, 2007, 10:41:39 AM
I tested the battlemap, and I can confirm that even the most brutal slope on the campaignmap gives totally acceptable battlemaps. The random map hills was tuned down quite a lot in 0.800.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 18, 2007, 10:57:46 AM
Sounds better, it was quite funny though in .751 when I was in a forest with massive amounts of hills and stuff so most of the people could barely move.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Yoshiboy on January 18, 2007, 11:40:22 AM
The hills are due to a nearness to a mountain tile, not the physical height of the terrain.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 18, 2007, 12:05:06 PM
Thanks. That`s scary, I have pretty large tiles. But I think I was quite close to mountain tiles when I tested. Will double check though.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 18, 2007, 01:24:44 PM
So how random is it in generating terrain still?
Are there still large amounts of bumps in what was meant to be flat grassland?
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 18, 2007, 01:42:54 PM
I`m glad to say that my map seems so large that you pretty much avoid the worst terrains, you have to really go up into the mountains to get it. As yoshi said, it is the tiles, and there`s mostly mountaintiles where they deserve to be.

No, there is not large amount of bumps in flat grassland.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 18, 2007, 02:17:32 PM
Sounds good then. Looks like I was concerened all for nothing.

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 18, 2007, 02:27:28 PM
Ah it could be a disaster though. You got me a little worried, but it seems to be okay.

So I`m planning to use troop trees like this: three upgrades for every troop. Their name will remain the same, but they will increase their skills. Example:

          Lvl1                                                Lvl2                                           Lvl3
Swadian Brother Footknight -> Swadian Brother Footknight -> Swadian Brother Footknight

You talk to them to know their stats, and you don`t always know who you`re up against when attacking an enemy. What d'ya think?  :)
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 18, 2007, 02:43:35 PM
Could be a little messy, I'd think - At least if I understood it right.

The way I get it, you'd then have several troops called simply "Swadian Brother Footknight". In theory that's no problem, but when you play the game for a while, you'd end up with stacks of parties looking like this:

Swadian Brother Footknight 3
Swadian Swordsman 2
Swadian Marksman 6
Swadian Brother Footknight 1
Swadian Millitiaman 6
Bandit 6
Swadian Swordsman 8
Swadian Brother Footknight 1
Swadian Executioner 1
Swadian Bowman 2
Other Scary Troop 1
Frighting Trooptype 4

While you would indeed make it hard to discern exactly the experience of the troops you're facing, it's also a quite confusing list. I realize while writing this though, that I'm bringing a rather senseless argument. I can see that it wouldn't be less messy at all if you called them Experienced "troop" or Veteran "troop" - you'd still have as many entries lined up.

I guess having many troop types just make things look rather messed up. It's probably a price worth to pay for a little excitement and diversity though. So yeah, seems good. If nothing else, you could always add little pluses after the units name. Might be a horrible idea, but it gives you somekind of overview.

Ex: "Swadian Brother Knight" -> "Swadian Brother Knight +" -> "Swadian Brother Knight ++" -> "Swadian Brother Knight +++"

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Xawery on January 19, 2007, 02:52:30 AM
Isn't a plus symbol used to indicate that a certain troop is ready for upgrading?

Scion, while I understand the desirability of not being able to discern the experience level of enemy troops, I think retaining the same troop name across experience levels would only add to the tedium already present in managing one's army. Let's say you are preparing for a big battle where you are outnumbered; obviously you would want to have your best troops up front. Having to talk to each troop slot and actually remembering which one was more experienced would be quite annoying, especially in a large, diverse army.

Different names not only make the troop list more transparent, they also add to the immersion. One could argue that death messages are unrealistic, but I think they give you a good indication of how the battle is going. Under your system, if you see a message "Swadian Brother Footknight was killed by (...)", you have no way of saying whether it was a mere recruit or a seasoned veteran.

My second argument is subjective and debatable, but I think the first one would apply to all players.

Regards,
Xawery
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 19, 2007, 03:08:14 AM
Xawery, I think you`re right. Transparency is very important, and I see how it will probably be frustrating for people. I don`t think that unrealistic death messages is the problem, just the annoyance with having for example "Swadian Brother Footknight Lvl 1 knocked out by Swadian Brother Footknight Lvl 2". Can look out of place.

So some alternatives can be
or something better. It`s not easy, huh?
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Ares on January 19, 2007, 04:02:15 AM
Heh, Swadian brother footknight -> Swadian uncle footknight -> Swadian grandad footknight :D
Personally I prefer the Swadian Brother Footknight -> Veteran Swadian Brother Footknight  -> Elite Swadian Brother Footknight 
or possibly Swadian Brother Footknight  -> Swadian Master Footknight  -> Swadian Grandmaster Footknight.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 19, 2007, 04:46:31 AM
Clue is that the labeling must be generic. With a master/grandmaster system you will have titles like Peasant -> Master Peasant -> Grandmaster Peasant. It`s a labelling I want to avoid. It should be as simple as possible but no simpler. I'll go with Lvl 1/2/3 for now if not somebody gets a brilliant idea.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Wood on January 19, 2007, 07:24:55 AM
Why must the labelling be generic? I don't see what's wrong with having Master, Grandmaster for the knights and something else for the peasantry. And different factions could have different ranks. Although pretty much anything would be better than just adding lvl 2, lvl 3 at the end of their name.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 19, 2007, 07:50:04 AM
Well, a Swadian Brother knight is sort of a grandmaster already. But maybe anything would be better. I`ll go for lvl 1/2/3 until somebody suggest or I get a better idea. Peasants/Trained Peasants/Veteran Peasants could be an alternative as well. Anyway, I think, except for the naming, that the way troop trees is going to be is settled.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: jeansberg on January 19, 2007, 07:58:19 AM
Disciplined and Hardened are two more suggestions, next to Veteran.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 19, 2007, 10:50:30 AM
I like the idea of Veteran and Disciplined.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 19, 2007, 11:22:15 AM
Disciplined and Hardened are two more suggestions, next to Veteran.

Ah, those two brings back memories. Memories back to Alpha Centauri and its Expansion. Out of some reason I always prefered that game next to the Civ' series. Too bad they never followed them up.

Ahem, anyways. I think Disciplined and Hardened are good, since they would probably work well for all types of units, wheras titles such as Elite and Veteran would not.

A Peasant could be hardened and disciplined, just like a High Swadian Knight Brother Officer, A Bandit, and Ranger.

Edit: Eh, on second thought Disciplined isn't too good for everyone. Perhaps simply "Experienced" and "Hardened" could do it?

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: jeansberg on January 19, 2007, 12:37:35 PM
Alpha Centauri is just the game I had in mind. :D

I guess disciplined wouldn't be the best choice for a berserker-type unit. :)
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Hellequin on January 19, 2007, 01:17:50 PM
Just as a suggestion - I think you're throwing away tons and tons of possible flavour, in looking for too much consistency.

Think faction styles here, military structures, etc.  For example's sake I'll make up a fictional faction, the "Koontzian Meritocracy" with forward-thinking and progressive ideals.  These guys have a very different troop structure, because they believe in lots of upward mobility.  So the lowliest Koontzian unit can, eventually, be upgraded to the highest one.  It'll just take a long time.  What's more, they have a verbose and florid manner of speech, so their unit names are distinctive and idiosyncratic, from Procrator to Warden of Serenity Vale (an honorary title with regards to a long-ago battle), to Knight of the Garter.  Whereas their foes, the Lazarene Oligarchs, have a very rigid class structure and a formal, crisp diction.  So no unit ever upgrades more than two steps beyond where it started, unit names are drab and descriptive, and the progression is always "____ Tertius", "____ Secundus", "_____ Prime".

There's huge amounts of possible style here; you made a start on that with the original concept for the mod, and I'm suggesting you go further in that direction, rather than further in the other.  Increases replay value, too, as you're curious to find out how it'll play out with the very different troop trees - not just unit stats, but the tree's very structure.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Emerson

- Hellequin
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 20, 2007, 06:40:37 AM
Thats a good post. Perhaps a poll is in order?
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Forral on January 20, 2007, 07:02:21 AM
Nah, it's all that voting that's the biggest flaw in democracy - Makes bad ideas win simply because most people don't know what they are supposed to think.. It's probably better to just keep discussing untill everyone agrees.

I'm with Hellequin though. It's a really good idea, especially considering the difference between the factions.

-Forral-
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 20, 2007, 11:09:55 AM
So what unit names could there be for each faction?
Youngbloods, Tribesmen and Warriors could be one line for a more barbaric faction.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 22, 2007, 04:19:07 AM
Just as a suggestion - I think you're throwing away tons and tons of possible flavour, in looking for too much consistency.

Think faction styles here, military structures, etc.  For example's sake I'll make up a fictional faction, the "Koontzian Meritocracy" with forward-thinking and progressive ideals.  These guys have a very different troop structure, because they believe in lots of upward mobility.  So the lowliest Koontzian unit can, eventually, be upgraded to the highest one.  It'll just take a long time.  What's more, they have a verbose and florid manner of speech, so their unit names are distinctive and idiosyncratic, from Procrator to Warden of Serenity Vale (an honorary title with regards to a long-ago battle), to Knight of the Garter.  Whereas their foes, the Lazarene Oligarchs, have a very rigid class structure and a formal, crisp diction.  So no unit ever upgrades more than two steps beyond where it started, unit names are drab and descriptive, and the progression is always "____ Tertius", "____ Secundus", "_____ Prime".

There's huge amounts of possible style here; you made a start on that with the original concept for the mod, and I'm suggesting you go further in that direction, rather than further in the other.  Increases replay value, too, as you're curious to find out how it'll play out with the very different troop trees - not just unit stats, but the tree's very structure.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Emerson

- Hellequin
:o Nice. That`s simply an excellent suggestion, in fact the idea makes everything "right"; the way I would picture it without actually have that idea.

So, throwing my thoughts out there, there should ideally be a set of "labels" for each faction / style. My left half of the brain ain`t working too well at the moment, so I am very thankful for input.  I think totally made up names is quite cool, as long as they make sense; ie. they don`t have to be pure english.

Tribesmen is supposed to be a unit for at least the Guirrans, their version of peasants so to speak.

Still just throwing my thoughts out there, good styles could be the following:
- Guirrans: celtic, animal
- Calradians: celtic / english / dark ages europe
- People of Suno: italian / christian / noble. "protector",
- Swadians: medieval french / german / crusaders
- Velucans: roman / latin / ancient mediterranian
- Radoghirs: pagan / nomad / strange.  "of spirits" etc, some of them are drugged on heavy drugs to connect them to the spirits while fighting.
- Khudans: ancient world barbarians / germannic. Not so much "vikingish" as germans that faced the romans-soundish. Names that appeared in Rome Total War: Europa Barbarorum for factions like Swebòz is what I had in mind. Allthough I`m pretty open for other suggestions for the khudans.
- The Virtuous: religious / ironic (calling themself innocents when they are the worst scum in Calradia) / agressive.

When I say celtic, it`s more the feel and association I`m thinking about. Just the feel I always indended for them.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Winter on January 22, 2007, 11:16:34 AM
Serenity Vale (an honorary title with regards to a long-ago battle)

It's Serenity Valley, you heathen. ;)

'Versely,
Winter
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: messenger on January 22, 2007, 12:07:14 PM
The Virtous could have the Charitables, Forgivers and Samaritons as their most elite units :P.
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 22, 2007, 03:04:11 PM
I started playing, then building... then I had my doubts whether I should continue or not  :P

(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1263/mapsc062bc.th.jpg) (http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapsc062bc.jpg)
Title: Re: Dark Ages of Calradia
Post by: Scion on January 22, 2007, 09:12:54 PM
I made the Taleworlds thread the day after a hard night out, I had thought the whole thing very little through, I pretty much started with the title (which was first supposed to be "Veluca"), an plan to have a brothel in the game, and a couple of faction ideas. I guess it`s not going down as fast as it started, but I have realized, no matter how much I like working on (most of) it, it won`t get finished. Yep that`s how tinish* I am, not even willing to release a 0.1a with just new graphics and take it from there, even recruit some people. In fact, the whole mod is a little similar to the castle above: it`s quite massive and everything, but one very important ingredient is missing: about 80%. I simply don`t see the point because it won`t get finished, so then I will probably donate the graphics away, make a pack or two maybe and along that line.

I want to release something, what`s the point if not, so then of course somebody else must do most of the work, and therefore I am going to start out helping Winter with graphics for StoryMod.



So thank you all and goodnight  8)



* indicating a lack of maturity