MBX

Mount&Blade Expansion => Mod Graveyard => Onin No Ran => Topic started by: Ron Losey on May 03, 2007, 07:43:46 pm

Title: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 03, 2007, 07:43:46 pm
Since we don't have a general suggestions thread going, I figured I would start one.

Any suggestions that don't go into specific other areas can go here.


---------------------------------------------------

I'll start things off ... we need tougher bandits.  The sea raiders are pretty formidable, but the others are like butchering sheep.  We need more mounted bandits in the mix, and upgraded armor for thug and bandit class.  Kurosawa's bandits were a LOT tougher than ours - I've been slaughtering these guys by the hundreds, even outnumbered 3 to one or more, with few or no casualties.  (Lost more troops to friendly fire than to the enemy.)  The large numbers of bandits, wandering around looting in the wake of the government collapse, should be among the biggest threats in the game ... not something that local farmers hunt for sport.

Fuji:  Send me all the latest version, and I'll play with it.  You've added a lot of graphics and such lately, so I'm not sure what I can and can't get away with changing.  (Not even sure how old my version of the module system actually is.)

Also, anybody who has any thoughts on how to re-organize the bandits ... I'm open to suggestions.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on May 04, 2007, 12:44:10 pm
I agree. The bandits as a group should be a greater threat than they are. My concern about upgraded armor is this: I've re-priced all the weapons and armor. The armor especially is freakin' expensive. I question how a band of roaming bandits could realistically obtain and maintain armor heavier than haraate in quanity without having some sort of financial base. If this were the Ikko Ikki, then yeah, because they formed they own government in places, but aside from looting, bandits don't really have a 'tax base'.

If the balance of the troop mix needs to be adjusted in favor of more mounted bandits and fewer guys on foot, that's doable. Individual troop types could have improved defensive stats (ironskin, athletics, agility). Troop numbers can also be adjusted. Battle strength can also be played around, giving bandits a boost in relative strength during a mission (more of their troops spawn than yours).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on May 04, 2007, 03:37:55 pm
can we have larger faction patrols as well? the small patrols (max I've seen is size 12 and i'm level 33 now) just get eaten up by the aforementioned bandits. No matter how weak the bandits are, when there are 70 of them vs 12, the 12 lose. I've seen a bandit group with 7 taisho prisoners before. i captured them but they were too expensve to keep around. 1200+ mon a week?! each?!
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: jush on May 04, 2007, 05:01:59 pm
I second both of these suggestions.  Perhaps you could also increase the number and skill of missile-armed bandits.  As it is, their rocks and shuriken just bounce off of my armor.  Maybe give them more uchine, crossbows and light yumis?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 04, 2007, 06:00:08 pm
Bandits should have trouble maintaining more armor that haraate on a regular basis, but we need a lot more of those.  (The mounted bandits already have better armor.)  That and more horse.  A lot of those fools are out there with nothing but a shirt between them and a tachi ... and a couple of points of ironskin isn't going to save them.

Bandits always have a strong financial base ... they have what they steal.  Governments have to pay for things, bandits do not.

When the government mostly collapses, as it did in the Onin War, the bandits have a PERFECT financial base ... they can steal whatever they want, because nobody has time to stop them.  They have a perfect recruiting base too ... people displaced by fighting are alone, scared and bitter, and will swell the ranks of any group that fights back (including criminal ones).  Think Kurosawa's bandits in "7 Samurai"... don't know who all they killed for their gear, but they were a lot better equipped than some armies.

One of the primary points here is that while the factions were fighting over Kyoto, the rest of the country went to heck.

-------------------------------------------

We may need to completely re-sort the bandit types, or which types go with which parties, or something.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on May 05, 2007, 12:28:13 am
also, there should be less bokken and bo armed enemies...
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 05, 2007, 01:09:24 am
also, there should be less bokken and bo armed enemies...

When the historically reworked prices come out (next version for first round changes), the logic of bandits using sticks will become apparent.  Swords will be VERY expensive ... sticks and farming tools will be about all most people could afford.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on May 05, 2007, 01:58:11 am
Doing something about the annoying habit some of the longer spears have of getting stuck in hills would be nice.

Other than that and the bandits, some AI modification would be nice.  Its kind of annoying with youre surrounded by peasants beating you with sticks through each other.
And some way to quit/commmit seppuku/whatever during battle would be nice, for similar situations.  Its rather annoying to get knocked off of ones horse only to be surrounded by guys wielding bokken and having to watch:

X did 0 damage to you
X did 0 damage to you
X did 0 damage to you
X did 0 damage to you
X did 1 damage to you
X did 0 damage to you

For an hour before you finally get knocked out and dragged around for a day.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 05, 2007, 02:27:06 am
The long spears ... well, M&B wasn't really designed with long spears in mind.  That we can't fix.

Having guys with sticks beat on your armor for a while ... well, that happens.  Normally there's somebody in the group with an axe or something, but if not - well, the same thing happened to some cops in riots over a WTO meeting somewhere a few years ago.  A bunch of angry protesters beat on a couple of them for what looked like forever, unable to really hurt them through all the body armor, but not letting them get up.  That's part of armored combat.  Unfortunately, M&B does not include a surrender button.  (Those cops at the WTO riot tried to surrender too, but nobody was listening.)

Tragically, the AI cannot really be changed within the scope of the mod script.  The closest we came was giving a lot of low-end units some rocks to throw, so they wouldn't always follow your horse around like a bunch of baby ducks.

Don't let them corner you.  If you ride into a whole herd of guys and let them knock you down, then you deserve to get used as a punching bag.

Seriously, these are things that can't be fixed.  We already discussed tougher bandits, i.e. less fools with sticks and more real weapons.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Stonewolf on May 05, 2007, 04:18:13 am
I'd like to see - if possible - a way to choose whether to accept quests from the town administrators, rather than having the boss of an enemy town send me to the other side of the map to deliver a message, or to the four nearest towns for a couple of stacks of paper.

Also, what about staging the enemies with increasing difficulty the further you move from Kyoto? The rationale: if armies are fighting for control of that area there will be little bandit activity because of the increased military presence. But, the further you move away from the place, the wilder things become. This would allow the new player character to hone his/her skills in a softer zone before taking on increasingly tougher foes as they advanced.

This would also allow quests to be set up to send the player increasingly further abroad, and therefore into more hostile territory.


(Admittedly, I have no idea how the M&B systems work - so none of this may be possible!)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Neophyte on May 05, 2007, 04:18:51 am
I don't know the details, but you can play with the behaviour of the 'tab'-key, so that if you aren't far enough away from enemies to leave the battle you can be given a menu of options, so you could stick a 'surrender' option in there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 05, 2007, 05:07:17 am
I'd like to see - if possible - a way to choose whether to accept quests from the town administrators, rather than having the boss of an enemy town send me to the other side of the map to deliver a message, or to the four nearest towns for a couple of stacks of paper.

Also, what about staging the enemies with increasing difficulty the further you move from Kyoto? The rationale: if armies are fighting for control of that area there will be little bandit activity because of the increased military presence. But, the further you move away from the place, the wilder things become. This would allow the new player character to hone his/her skills in a softer zone before taking on increasingly tougher foes as they advanced.

This would also allow quests to be set up to send the player increasingly further abroad, and therefore into more hostile territory.


(Admittedly, I have no idea how the M&B systems work - so none of this may be possible!)

I'll have to let Fujiwara handle the text question.

As for the foes getting tougher, I would expect the opposite.  I would expect more bandit activity near the center of fighting.  Displaced people and looting are the makings of bandit gangs.  Sporadic fighting among the would-be government groups would result in refugees running around, extremely bitter at the system in general ... and many would find their way into bandit camps looking for "work", as it were.  The strain on the armed forces from fighting their rivals would prevent them from effectively retaliating against these street gangs.

In contrast, the lords of neutral provinces (or those mildly sympathetic to one side but physically too far away to really be involved in the fighting) would continue doing business as usual, which would include both military and economic/social solutions to crime problems within their zones of control.

Chaos breeds chaos ... that's about the long and the short of it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Stonewolf on May 05, 2007, 06:09:46 am
You could very well be right, Ron. I was actually trying to suggest a storyline for a sort of area-progression, with enemies gaining in strength as you progress to new areas of the map.

This could still be accomplished if Kyoto was the centre of the fighting and the strength of both armies -- it would just mean having players move towards Kyoto as they increased in strength, rather than moving away from it. Which does make sense in terms of RP character progression too - a merchant, increasing the value of their trade goods by peddling in outlying towns will gradually move their business closer to the 'big city' markets, while a swordsman seeking employment (or challenge) will gravitate towards where the battle rages largest.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 05, 2007, 07:10:05 am
Actually, Fujiwara has all kinds of storyline-related stuff in his head.  We just haven't got it into the game yet.  He's planning a lot of political moves as quests - diplomacy, espionage, assassination ... all the stuff you associate with Japanese politics.  (Well, the stuff you associate with politics in general, but when it came to espionage and assassination, nobody did it quite like the Japanese.)

However, we were kind of trying to avoid the zone=level thing ... it detracts from the role-play elements.  Most of the bandits already spawn around where things were the hottest - you don't want to tangle with them, then stay out in the less chaotic areas.

I don't know what all he has planned.  A lot of it depends on the limitations of the M&B engine and his patience as a programmer.

But yeah ... I follow you, but we're not that far along yet.  Have to put that thought on the back burner for a while.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on May 06, 2007, 03:35:40 am
another suggestion: can we have some sort of place for us to store troops (given that the npc drop off/pick up is bugged)? It should be like how the castle works in native. Perhaps there should be a barracks or something in your home town that you can leave troops in when you're allied with a faction
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 06, 2007, 08:57:00 am
I'll second that last motion.

-----------------------------------

Fujiwara:  we've got a logic bug.  Patrols of platoon strength or less are commanded by generals.  Their commanding officers should be ranked below that ... I think umamawari was the correct term for a cavalry officer, not sure what is used for infantry.

Generals should be reserved for armies of at least 100 or more.  Probably "or more", but poetic license could allow for many of the nearby patrols to also be theoretically under his command.

---------------------------------

On the note of generals and NPC's ... is it possible to create a dialog where you could press a captured or liberated from captivity general to join you, and he would be assigned a random name from a list and added to your NPC's?  I ask because, A.)somebody always wants to know how to pick up more NPC's (I like the feel of all of your troops having names and equipment, personally ... like old-school RPG stuff ... so I understand this one), and B.) the generals now are wasted due to their extreme cost (nobody will pay to keep them around).

(Not like equipping them would be much cheaper, but still...)

I think somebody did a script like this for Native or some other mod, but I can't seem to find it right now.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 06, 2007, 12:13:34 pm
OK, I've tried OnR after a long time to see if it got any better, cause back then it offered a huge map full of nothing to do.
I like some features like duelling, fighting in the dojo's (which could be handled better..like you could actually compete with the dojo champions for something. I think it was the sign of the dojo that was given to the one who's beaten the master, nay?), serving under a local province ruler etc.
But some stuff is ruining the atmosphere for me. I think you should definitely add warcries in japanese. The warriors look japanese, but the second they scream "TO BAAATTLEEEEE!", it's all gone.
Also, I'm not sure..it's probably intentional, but swords seem to have very little effect against armor. I got killed very easily fighting four or five mounted samurai and I was lvl 26 or something :( Axes on the other hand kill me with three blows. I've learnt to evade and raise my athletics a lot. Chargins a pack of pirates slashing through them with one hit kills is fun though.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 06, 2007, 12:16:11 pm
Also total conversion like this one, TLD or Holy War always depend largely on original content graphic wise. Which you've gotten better since last I've tried it. That yumi I've pictures I've seen in some thread look great, swords in scabbards and such..Hope to see more of it in the next release.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 06, 2007, 12:32:01 pm
Speaking of graphics, do you intend to add more japanese looking environments, flora etc? Like crooked pines, those bright red maples, more vibrant green grass..
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on May 06, 2007, 01:03:12 pm
Melkir: I'm sure Fujiwara intends to make all those graphical changes you mentioned, but it's a work in progress and as I'm aware almost a one man show.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 06, 2007, 01:09:20 pm
So is Holy War ;) But I didn't mean any disrespect. Just noting that this mod has great potential and is not yet there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 06, 2007, 06:49:00 pm
Everyone is quite aware that ONR is not a completed project.  Far from it.

Fujiwara is doing most of the code and the models himself.  Many of the textures are credit to Triglav.  I just do history and combat model, and what I can to keep the forum active.  A number of others have helped from time to time, but yeah, ONR is real short-handed.

The environment was discussed on another thread.  I said rice paddies, huts and such, to make it look more like Japan and less like the Black Forest.  (Asian-looking trees would be nice, if some botanist cares to model them ... but most people likely can't tell the difference anyway.)  We need somebody who's good with graphics to build such a thing.

Next release is scheduled for a number of graphics improvements.

The Dojo code is a rough draft.  Fujiwara has all kinds of plans for that, but this draft was just to get something in the current release to tell people that the dojo thing was in the works.

Japanese voices were also discussed earlier ... but our one person who spoke really good Japanese hasn't been around in months.  (Nobody has heard from Ryuta since the move from Taleworlds, as far as I know.)  If somebody wants to take care of that, please do. 

And swords don't have much effect against armor.  That's the reason for wearing armor.  Axes and hammers, on the other hand, tear armor to bits ... but they're kind of slow, clumsy weapons that lack the damage potential of a sharp sword.  Even more so for halberds and the like.  You wear armor to force your enemy to use less-than-ideal weapons against you.

And yeah, the RCM mods require some tactics ... players can no longer just go out there like they think only kryptonite can hurt them.  A few levels won't save you from being run down by armored horsemen, and even some beggar in rags can stick an axe in your chest, armor or no.  In contrast, if you do land the first solid blow, there is a good chance it will be effective at stopping them.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 07, 2007, 02:20:52 am
Japanese flora is similar to european on the first sight, but looks different as a whole. Would be nice to have new skyboxes with "misty green mountains " too. Some bamboo grooves..

http://www.wanichan.com/english/picture/forest/forest4.jpg (http://www.wanichan.com/english/picture/forest/forest4.jpg)
(http://www.wanichan.com/english/picture/forest/forest6.jpg)
(http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/PhotoGallery/Asia_Trail/photos/salamander03a.jpg)
(http://gardenpartyradio.com/wp/images/Japanese-Maple_01.jpg)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 07, 2007, 04:34:57 am
Japanese flora is similar to european on the first sight, but looks different as a whole. Would be nice to have new skyboxes with "misty green mountains " too. Some bamboo grooves..

http://www.wanichan.com/english/picture/forest/forest4.jpg (http://www.wanichan.com/english/picture/forest/forest4.jpg)
(http://www.wanichan.com/english/picture/forest/forest6.jpg)
(http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/PhotoGallery/Asia_Trail/photos/salamander03a.jpg)
(http://gardenpartyradio.com/wp/images/Japanese-Maple_01.jpg)

Uh... I live in Xi'an.  I know what eastern Asian vegetation looks like.  That's not really the point. 

Are you volunteering to model this stuff?  If so, have at it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 07, 2007, 04:51:58 am
I know you're in China. Just wanted to post an example for people who don't.
I can't model in Wings, so probably not. I can texture, but I don't have time right now. So no, useless as I am, just throwing in suggestions.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 07, 2007, 05:13:25 am
I know you're in China. Just wanted to post an example for people who don't.
I can't model in Wings, so probably not. I can texture, but I don't have time right now. So no, useless as I am, just throwing in suggestions.

So we're back to where we started... changes to scenery are awaiting somebody who is a good modeler with about a gazillion hours of free time.

Oh well, nothing lost.  Maybe somebody will read this and think "Hey, I could do that." 

Of course, then they will probably go back to taking their medication, and we'll still be out of luck.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on May 07, 2007, 10:25:45 am
Wow...talk about opening the flood gates. There are some good ideas in here that deserve a response, but I'm at work right now and don't have the time to write out all my thoughts. More later...
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: dulahan on May 17, 2007, 01:47:05 pm
One nice inclusion would be a battle size editor with the mod itself.  None of the ones I can find at the repository seem to be compatible with version .808.  But for those of us with the system to handle it, it would definately be nice.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 08, 2007, 10:40:14 pm
Hey, Fujiwara ... it looks like the next version of M&B is going to support editable hitboxes.  Also, the new version of BRF Edit will now handle the custom skeletons.  That means we can finally add the wild boar for the samurai to hunt.  (That was a favorite hobby of the bushi, after all.)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: KanonKross on June 08, 2007, 11:02:27 pm

But some stuff is ruining the atmosphere for me. I think you should definitely add warcries in japanese. The warriors look japanese, but the second they scream "TO BAAATTLEEEEE!", it's all gone.


I could probably think of some things to say, but I don't really have professional sound equipment.

"Ike!!" - Go!
"Ikusa!!" - Fight!
"Shine!!" - Die!
"Aaaaaaaaaaah!!" - I think we know what that means...
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 08, 2007, 11:13:46 pm
Add some profanities to that list, and you're set.  Don't worry about professional sound equipment ... a cheap microphone and a quiet room will be fine.  (If you think any of the rest of us are professionals around here, you're dreaming.)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: KanonKross on June 09, 2007, 12:43:07 am
Heh, sounds like fun! Anyone know of a decent sound recording software? Freeware at that. Not one that has limited features.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on June 09, 2007, 05:46:08 pm
how to swear in 180 languages:
http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/

Japanese:
http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/japanese.htm

However, I think Fujiwara intends for this to be a family-friendly mod
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 09, 2007, 06:24:12 pm
Family-friendly or no, what do you say when there is some guy coming at you with a knife three feet long, wearing a shirt that appears to be made out of the bulk of a 1968 Buick.  "Oh... (insert favorite expletive here)!"

What do you say when you realize you're outnumbered 3 to one?  "The (bad word) are coming to (bad word) our (bad word) and now we're (comical new bad word)."

I question the definition of "family-friendly" anyway.  We have a game/mod of almost unimaginable violence here, displayed realistically enough to cause flashbacks in those of us who have really seen men die on the edge of a blade ... and you're worried if the characters don't use nice words?  What kind of standard is that?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on June 09, 2007, 07:04:17 pm
Well in mentioned in the heads thread, and I quote: "Yes, it was historical, but, as I said above, the game is bloody enough, and my son likes to watch me play."

So I think anything he doesn't want his son to hear will be off limits.

However,  I think the swears would be a good addition to other mods. I mean, there are 180 languages there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 09, 2007, 07:30:50 pm
Well, maybe Fujiwara's kid will grow up to be a great warrior who never uses bad words ... but everyone else here lives on Earth.  I don't advise filling the mod with anything you wouldn't find on television or hear in a schoolyard in most countries.  Vulgar language just for the sake of vulgar language would be a waste.  However, realistic word usage for the situation doesn't seem that far from reasonable - which would include the occasional less-than-proper terms, these ranging from the mildly insulting to the occasionally vulgar.  (Even people who are normally very careful about their language will mutter some not-so-nice things when somebody is trying to kill them.)

The violence is, after all, not really suitable for extremely young viewers ... unless the parents are deliberately trying to desensitize the kids to violence.  (I was raised a warrior - I was deliberately desensitized to violence by the continual happenings of farm life, combined with the constant reminder that anything that applies to animals also applies to humans.  That was before computer games could do this job for you ....)  If the kids are being given a crash course in the real world, I doubt that a few mild to moderately profane expletives, probably in a language they don't speak, will make much difference.  Again, it's likely nothing they won't get on television anyway.

However, I see no reason in the absurd double standard of making all the language suitable for children's books, while the rest of the content is too violent even for horror films.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 10, 2007, 02:42:35 pm
Family friendly, no. I just wasn't interested in having to deal with severed heads, historical or not. If the swearing is in Japanese, which it should be for this mod, I could care less. My kid doesn't speak Japanese. Sounds are a long-neglected part of this mod (even my wife thinks so!), and anyone who wants to take up the gauntlet has my blessing. I wouldv'e done it a long time ago, but I don't have a microphone or a decent sound card.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: KanonKross on June 10, 2007, 09:55:50 pm
Like I said, I would be willing to, but I don't know the exact file type of the sound files. On my computer, they just say they are winamp sound files because winamp is the latest compatable sound player I installed.

I have a mic and could have a quiet room when the apartment is empty. I took a year of japanese. This could be fun ^_^.

Go expletives!
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 10, 2007, 10:41:53 pm
The game runs .oog and .wav formats.  Not sure if it matters which one you use.  Look under M&B's sounds folder, to get a better idea of the size and length of files you're shooting for.  (Translation - I have no idea what kind of quality is standard ... figure something out.)

Not too many totally vulgar expletives, please ... the idea is historical realism.  Hollywood may blanket their lack of dialog in profanities, but reality normally only gets a few of those, generally either placed as insults, or as cries of alarm or distress.  (New York being the exception - they can make sentences where just about every word is a profanity, and they seem to understand what the other people are talking about ... but I don't think you can do that in Japanese.)  If you're not sure which terms are appropriate for these things in Japanese, ask around.

And remember, the battle cry of the Samurai was "Ei!" ... the battle cry of old Bruce Lee movies was "Heeeeyyaaaah!" ... try not to get those mixed up.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 11, 2007, 03:48:13 pm
Kanon, as Ron said the game reads both OGG and WAV files. I recommend WAV since that's the standard output format for Windows Sound Recorder. Thanks for taking this up. It will definitely add a lot of atmosphere :)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: comikal on June 12, 2007, 08:18:21 am
Unless you have Vista. By the way, I'll see how OnR runs in Vista, but M&B runs fine so far.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 13, 2007, 12:19:28 pm
If M&B runs in Vista, so should this OnR. What is the sound output format in Vista?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on June 13, 2007, 01:30:39 pm
May I suggest resizing the map so that it is smaller and doesn't take so much system resoures and so long to load? You can reduce movement speeds for the mod to keep the same travel times between 2 places. I feel the map is way too large as it is.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Quail on June 13, 2007, 02:42:05 pm
personally I like how huge the map is.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 13, 2007, 09:10:09 pm
May I suggest resizing the map so that it is smaller and doesn't take so much system resoures and so long to load? You can reduce movement speeds for the mod to keep the same travel times between 2 places. I feel the map is way too large as it is.

The map size doesn't really change the load times by much.  Other functions pull a lot more resources and load time.  That was confirmed when Fujiwara managed to streamline some processes and cut the load times by almost five minutes, back about when we were converting to .808.  You would only gain 10 seconds or less on the first-time load, and maybe half a second on town-to-world transitions, by cutting the map down to 10% of what it is now (rough estimate from other mods, and assuming your computer is fast enough to even run the game).  Such a dramatic move would destroy the feel, and eliminate our ability to add more things to the map (spawn points, triggers, mission targets) ... certainly not worth it over 7 to 9 seconds.

What the map needs is more stuff going on ... but that's for later versions.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: comikal on June 14, 2007, 05:31:18 pm
If M&B runs in Vista, so should this OnR. What is the sound output format in Vista?

They have wma except for Business or Home "N" versions. But yeah, Vista runs M&B but something as huge as OnR runs much better than my XP system. Of course, my laptop is a dual-core 64 bit with twice the video memory and RAM. I guess that makes some difference.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on June 19, 2007, 04:46:16 pm
The heavy yumi's pdraw requirement should be lowered to 5. at the current rating of 6, and m&b v.808's new pd affect on accuracy, the heavy yumi isn't accurate even with pd of 10 and 400 in bow proficiency. I lowered it to pd req 5 in the text files and it is now usable at pd 10 but that's still an extreme requirement in my opinion.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 19, 2007, 07:51:49 pm
The heavy yumi's pdraw requirement should be lowered to 5. at the current rating of 6, and m&b v.808's new pd affect on accuracy, the heavy yumi isn't accurate even with pd of 10 and 400 in bow proficiency. I lowered it to pd req 5 in the text files and it is now usable at pd 10 but that's still an extreme requirement in my opinion.

The "heavy yumi" is not really supposed to be very usable.  It was modeled to represent the absurdly heavy Japanese bows of this period.  Some of them had draw weights close to 200 pounds - you had to be a real gorilla to draw one at all.  (Heaviest thing I've ever pulled was 110 pound draw, and it was hurting me a lot.)  There is not supposed to be a way to use one accurately at range ... but should you get close and actually hit somebody with one, it's one of the few weapons that will reliably go through just about any armor, and the lethality of taking such an impact is stunning.  They're supposed to be extreme.

If you just feel you must use the heavy yumi, use them like the Japanese horse archer competitions - ride by and let your target have it at point blank range and full gallop.  That's what they were designed for.

Personally, I prefer the light yumi.  Damage is a little lower, making it a bit weak against armor, but accuracy and ease of use more than pay for that.

You're just seeing the detail of the RCM model ... almost every weapon has strengths and weaknesses.  Often, a "better" weapon will have more weaknesses than strengths.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on June 19, 2007, 11:21:48 pm
well if it's supposed to be a 200lb monster bow, at least give it some more damage potential. right now, it only has +10 damage over the yumi, which is pretty crappy considering you can't hit squat with it. I say lower it's pdraw but raise it's damage. It'll still be inaccurate since the damage rating affects accuracy as well
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 19, 2007, 11:41:22 pm
well if it's supposed to be a 200lb monster bow, at least give it some more damage potential. right now, it only has +10 damage over the yumi, which is pretty crappy considering you can't hit squat with it. I say lower it's pdraw but raise it's damage. It'll still be inaccurate since the damage rating affects accuracy as well

If you haven't done the math, +10 at that level translates to about a 30% greater chance of a first-shot kill.  The only way you could do more damage than that with an arrow is to strap dynamite to it.  I mean, it's an arrow, after all - not a 500 pound bomb.

As I said, it's not really supposed to be a good idea.  It's just historical.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Galdred on June 20, 2007, 08:07:00 am

The "heavy yumi" is not really supposed to be very usable.  It was modeled to represent the absurdly heavy Japanese bows of this period.  Some of them had draw weights close to 200 pounds - you had to be a real gorilla to draw one at all. 


But wouldn't someone with 30 STR and Power Draw 10 qualify for being a gorilla?  :green:
Considering duels, wouldn't it be better to have them scripted as random events? Like the ones happening in Schattenländer? That would allow them not to be taken prisonner by wandering parties, and would make it impossible to save right before a duel.
I think a duellist rating (an equivalent of fame related to duelling) would be a more appropriate reward than loot (I think the idea of duelling and looting don't fit).
Are the duellists all the same? I have not noticed any significant differences between their skill levels (but the duels are pretty fast with the RCM anyway, so it is hard to tell).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 20, 2007, 08:15:13 am

The "heavy yumi" is not really supposed to be very usable.  It was modeled to represent the absurdly heavy Japanese bows of this period.  Some of them had draw weights close to 200 pounds - you had to be a real gorilla to draw one at all. 


But wouldn't someone with 30 STR and Power Draw 10 qualify for being a gorilla?  :green:

Actually, anyone who makes the required power draw 6 to use the thing would probably let his knuckles drag on the ground behind him.

That still does not make the bow accurate, and it does not increase the damage by a factor that would normally require explosives.  It just means you can pull the fool thing.  Why you would want to ... well, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Tuckles on June 24, 2007, 05:25:05 am
I dunno if this has been suggested before, but can we please have a bit more starting money? Considering the up'd prices (280k for a spear? O_O) I think giving a starting amount of 150 mon for a Bushi and 35 for a ronin? Come on. I suggest making 'em 15000 and 3500 or 1500 and 350.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 24, 2007, 06:42:54 am
I dunno if this has been suggested before, but can we please have a bit more starting money? Considering the up'd prices (280k for a spear? O_O) I think giving a starting amount of 150 mon for a Bushi and 35 for a ronin? Come on. I suggest making 'em 15000 and 3500 or 1500 and 350.

Yeah ... 350,000 for Kuge, 600 for samurai, 35 for Ronin.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Tuckles on June 24, 2007, 07:49:09 am
350 000 for a Kuge seems a tad much, don't you think? maybe 40 000, 5 000 and 350?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 24, 2007, 08:04:23 am
350 000 for a Kuge seems a tad much, don't you think? maybe 40 000, 5 000 and 350?


"Kuge" translates "nobility".  If you read that "Baron", it comes into perspective.

And "Ronin" translates "wanderer".  Read that as "vagrant" ... "Homeless army veteran"

So my numbers were not at all extreme.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Tuckles on June 24, 2007, 08:09:26 am
I don't think the noble would carry all that money with him though right?

And if the ronin gets 35, and is a vagrant, just give him 0 instead.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 24, 2007, 09:17:14 am
:D Yes, the starting money has been fixed, to Bushi 360 (1 koku), Kuge 36000 (100 koku), Merchant 3600 (10 koku), and Ronin 90 (quarter koku). Here's my rational behind this:

Young samurai were never wealthy, and very much dependent on their liege lords for their continued survival as samurai and not ronin. Kuge were independently wealthy, and most kuge familiies had interests in one or more shoen. I intend to reflect this in game as some sort of administrative NPC available only to Kuge who manages the player's money (maybe I'll open this up to any class who wants to give a shot at 'investing', but the buy-in would be enormous) and doles out regular dividends. Merchants obviously had to create their own wealth, and ronin were, as Ron said, 'homeless army vets', as much mercenaries as anything, which is why they (and the concept of them) fits so well into the M&B engine.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 24, 2007, 11:19:15 pm
I've got one.  Some of this has been done, but we need to take it a lot further....

Non-military improvised weapons.  We have a staff and a sickle, but there are numerous others that should be included.  For example, knife-armed peasant types should generally not have expensive tanto ... they should have crude kitchen knives and such.  Rusty agricultural machetes and farm hatchets ... deadly enough, but worthless.  Non-weapon hammers and clubs, tree branches ...

This would also help the loot issue... realistic-looking piles of loot (including fully functional weapons, for those who need them) could be dropped, and still not give the player an awe-inspiring pile of wealth.  Better than those weapons just disappearing.  Also helps highlight the differences between warriors and peasants.

------------------------

I can do the items, but I'll need some research help.  Japanese names for all of these items ... any historical research on the subject.  (i.e. Did Jap. kitchens at the time use pointed kitchen knives, or square cleavers like traditional Chinese cooking?)  May need graphics for some of them, eventually, but we can probably borrow everything from native for starters.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 25, 2007, 07:53:24 am
Ron, I like this idea a lot actually. The current problem the loot code is threefold:

1) I have no means of checking for certain types of items, short of testing for each item individually. This is not a good way to implement this, as it would be VERY slow.
2) The code simply calculates a percentage change for each item in the inventory. The reason the clothing shows up so much is that, for the sake of have troops wear different clothes, the troop inventories are loaded with 4-5 different clothing items, so there's a greater chance of clothes showing up in the drops than more useful things like weapons/armor
3) As it stands, this algorithm is applied across all party templates equally. I could make a fairly simple modification such that each template carries with it its own 'percentage modifier', so that those parties with a larger number of well-equipped troops (forest, mountain banndits, faction patrols), the chances of weapons and armor dropping improves. Or, OTOH, modifiing the inventories of the bandits like you mentioned above and then setting the percentage high.


EDIT: EUREKA! The is_between operation allows you to test if a certain value 'is between' two endpoints in a list. I can set up three sections: clothes, armor, and everything else, like this:

Code: [Select]
('test_item_type',
[
(store_script_param_1,':item'),
(try_begin),
(is_between,':item','itm_kosode_a','itm_haraate_hoso'),
(assign,':min',100),
(assign,':max',50),
(else_try),
(is_between,':item','itm_haraate_hoso','itm_tanto'),
(assign,':min',20),
(assign,':max',10),
(else_try),
(is_between,':item','itm_tanto','itm_end_items'),
(assign,':min',40),
(assign,':max',15),
(try_end),
(assign,reg20,':min'),
(assign,reg21,':max'),
]),

Basically, it says that if the item is clothing, make the drop percentage between 10 and 20%, if armor 50 to 90%, and if weapons 25 to 75%. I'm open to suggestions on these percentages.  This is nice and short, and solves the issue of spearating clothing from armor. I'll get this in tonight and send you a patch. From there we can get working on changing the items carried. I'm also going to add horses to this, since it bothers me that they NEVER seem to drop.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 25, 2007, 08:09:57 am
Native actually has meshes for all of those things you mentioned, including the tree branch (!). If you could make the additions to the items and troops files, and send me back the source, I'll put in the right mesh(es).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 25, 2007, 08:27:42 am
I'll take care of both the weapons and the troops files.  I'll manually replace as many military-grade weapons as possible with as many low-grade ones as possible for most of the robbers and street trash. 

Then, you can set the loot code at about 90% (plus or minus 10%) for weapons, say 65% (plus/minus 20%) for armor, and 5% plus/minus 5% for clothing.  That would make sense ... clothing would mostly be worthless, some armor would be damaged but most would be reparable, and almost all of the weapons would be lying right where they fell.  Make horses about 30% ... some might die of injuries, and several would get away.

I figure we can borrow most of the graphics from native for now.  (Including the tree branch ... I like that one.  It's actually a good-looking model, which is rare for native.)

On the weapons, though, I need some expertise in ancient Japan that I don't have.  I know the weapons well, but I know little about the kitchen knives, farming and digging implements, and carpentry tools of the period.  Therefore, it would be real easy to add some things that were just not right.  I don't even know where to look for this data.  I need as much on this stuff as you can find - the data itself or any web sites where I can look for it.

Edit: ... also peasant armors.  I'm sure peasants who could not afford professional-grade armors used all kinds of leather jackets and shirts with metal strips sewed into them, quilted padding, or whatever else they could throw together cheaply.  We also know that covert armors existed ... armoring materials disguised in regular clothing.  (The ninja were famous for that sort of thing.)  Do we have any research on those? 

Edit again:  ... and Japanese names for as many of things as we can find.... but that can wait.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 25, 2007, 02:13:48 pm
Non-military type weapons: Form follows function in this case, I think. If you look a Japanese kitchen knife today, it probably hasn't changed much in shape in the past 500+ years: long, thin cross section, smaller in the back to edge dimension than a french chef's. That along with the arch-typical Chinese cleaver were the main cutting tools in the kitchen. Hammers had a roughly cylindrical head, depending on the exact use, much like most places in the world. The hoe was longer and narrower than the American version, suitable for rice farming. Chisels and saws were not remarkable in shape from other cultures, but benefitted from the improved steelmaking abilities of the swordsmiths.

I can only make conjecture about 'peasant' armors, since there is nothing in the literature regarding such, and no extant examples. Indeed, a quick Google search only turns up stuff for fantasy RPGs. Quilting was widely popular for making warm clothes, so it's not too much of an intellectual leap to make armor from that. There were cultural issues with leather, it coming from dead things which, in Shinto, are considered unclean. I've found no records of it being used for clothing by peasants, unless by the Japanese version of the Untouchables, which don't feature here. Kikko, the hexagonal Japanese brigandine, could conceivably be made of bits of leather or metal, but entire armors of it didn't come into being until the Edo period, so we would only be talking about partial armor (a chest protector under clothes, for example). Again, without extant examples of this stuff, it would only be conjecture. Indeed, the concept of a peasant includes the notion that they weren't armed (well) or possessed much in the way of protective gear, or they would not BE peasants, and this is a fairly universal concept.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on June 25, 2007, 04:19:35 pm
Just felt the urge to chime in and say that the "discovery" of the in_between statement in regards to the loot drop code made my day. It always bothered greatly me that after defeating a well-armed and armored party I would get a shirt and a knife, or well, lots of them. Yay for fujiwara.  :D

Ron, will the weapon drop percentages work though? I fully agree with the logic that a lot of weapons would be fully retainable after a battle, however would that not make the player exceedingly wealthy after just a handful, if that many, battles against any decently armed force?

My first instinct would be to make the trade penalty insane for the player when selling items to the merchant, or perhaps, and while I favor this solution myself I'm not sure it's doable, to make the loot drop be "a used/worn/dented/something weapon" with a lower sell value instead of a regular weapon item? Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 25, 2007, 04:29:09 pm
Well, as soon as I get this "peasant weapons and armor" data together, it will help.  Most of what is dropped by "easy" opponents will be absolute crud.  The only way to make a lot of money would be to attack somebody with money, i.e. samurai or high-end bandits, someone with good weapons and armor.  If you're mean enough to attack them, odds are the cost of your army is already going to be pretty bad.  Either that, or you will already have so much money that it won't matter.

That's been an issue of both history and playability all the way through ... it just took us this long to create a solution.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fujiwara:
Since you seem to be an expert on 10th through 14th century Japanese housewares and farming tools....

I assume the peasants made stick bows?  Willow sapling and a pocket knife, like every teenager has tried at some time or another?  I also assume we should add them, to replace a fair number of the professionally made (and therefore expensive) light yumi.  I should be able to nerf the speed and accuracy enough to deliver the message that this is better suited for hunting rabbits than for shooting at men.

What's the Japanese term for a hatchet?  Probably (something)-ono.  I'll add a random selection of common-looking axes ... help cover that we currently only have one model.

The improvised armors, I agree, should not be "good" ... I'm just looking for alternatives to peasants having so much (expensive) samurai-type armor.  Somebody once said that he missed the days when "junk mail" was something worn by poor knights.

I'll name them in English for now.  We'll translate later.


Do get me a patch on the loot, so I can test this stuff.  Just e-mail me the changed source code.



Edit:
You really want to get wild?  We can replace the "sea raiders" with some Korean pirates, complete with Chinese/Korean/Mongol type equipment.  Not right now ... that's an idea for later.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 25, 2007, 06:13:38 pm
GRRRRR......

Just re-read the original code for looting (this is what I get for coming up with solutions at work).

The operation that does all the work, troop_loot_troop, is troop_based, not item based like I thought. So, for my script to work, I'd have to iterate through every troop's inventory. Hmm...lemme see what I can come up with
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 25, 2007, 06:15:41 pm
I've got it ... mark peasant clothing items as "unique" ... then they never show up in loot.


Edit:
That's a cheap trick, I know.  We should be able to do better than that.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 25, 2007, 06:32:10 pm
I wrote an entirely new loot script that doesn't use troop_loot_troop. Lemme see how well it performs (we may need to adjust percentages), and we'll go from there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 25, 2007, 06:47:34 pm
I'm also thinking of adding a home-made sword (or two) to the list of peasant weapons.  I can use the native meshes from "nomad saber" or something.  I'm sure longer crude knives were floating around ... as machetes, if nothing else.  Question, how should I name it?  "Home-Made Sword"?  "Peasant Blade"?  "Ninja-to"  ::)  "large knife"?  "Machete"?

Edit:

Also, what do you think of adding native leather_vest or padded_leather as crude peasant armors?  They look about crude enough. 

And that thing in Shinto about leather... how was that applied?  Because a good portion of the samurai armors were hardened leather.  Was it only soft leather, or leather worn against the skin, or what?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 25, 2007, 08:52:56 pm
As far as the leather goes, it was in the handling of dead animals that caused problems. Once leather reached a 'tanned' stated, it seems (from it's widespread use in armor) that everything was ok. Why it wasn't used widely for clothing was, I suppose, from a lack of need for it. Hemp and silk grew in abundance, and so there was no need for leather clothing. Leather clothing was certainly used in China and Korea at the time, but I can find no record of it in Japan.

The Japanese machete is called a Ken-nata, and the Native nomad sword would do quite nicely as the model.

I'm leery of using leather_vest or padded_leather, since their obviously not Japanese. I've whipped something up as a concept, a kikko vest:

(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f127/texan_otaku/kikko_vest.png)

and

(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f127/texan_otaku/kiik_vest_blue.png)
this my lame assed attempt at vertex painting

I want to go on the record as saying this is NOT an extant piece of Japanese armor. It is at best an extrapolation of what was possible in the era.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 25, 2007, 09:00:26 pm
Oh, BTW, I think I have the loot thing figured out. The loop through all troops inventories code work much better than I imagined, so I'm sending you a patch, Ron. The full release will be after Ron has a quick look at it. ROn, you will find it in your mail box.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kilby on June 25, 2007, 09:42:55 pm
I haven't played much of the new release so far, but from what I have it is looking good.  I have a couple of minor suggestions:

Loving the new "big city" environment, especially the prefectural manor, but is there any chance you could follow native and activate the location menu for subsequent visits?  Traveling around with an athletics level of one and no horse begins to wear thin on the third or fourth visit to a large city.  Also, wouldn't this decrease the load time because the game would only have to load the individual cell of the location (dojo, merchant, etc.) rather than the entire outdoor field?

I'm sure this has already been noted, but the kokujin dialogue for constructing a fort currently reads, "I want to establish an outpost near hear", instead of "I want to establish an outpost near here".
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 25, 2007, 10:16:55 pm
All right ... I'll just add something clearly fake for the peasant armors, put it together and test it.  You can replace the fake ones with what you're building as soon as I send it back to you.  You can also fix any crummy English names which I will leave strewn about ("simple club").  (Just change the text on them ... I'll make the item name something easy to work with (itm_club1).


Fujiwara:
Source code.  Send be the source with the new loot code, so I can modify the items and troops files and recompile it properly.  Also, I need to know the limits of the loot code ... for example, if it scans for weapons as everything in the item list between itm_x and itm_z, I need to know what x and z are ... so I can put the new weapons between x and z, to get them included.

Let's wait on the patch until I have these new items in.  Shouldn't take long.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on June 27, 2007, 06:22:46 pm
I know this is a bit wild suggestion but what about if you could make Onin no Ran as a stand-alone game? ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 27, 2007, 07:37:20 pm
Finwulf,

Unfortunately, I have no experience in writing game engines. I could not duplicate what Armagan, Ipek, and Co. have put together. GLad you like it :D
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: mfhberg on June 27, 2007, 07:52:02 pm
Playing Schattenlander gets into the mood by changing some of the lines in the ui.csv file in the languages folders. Just a couple of  line changes in the loading sequence set the mood.

Hint 9: Young men with young swords are dangerous, old men with old swords are deadly.

mfberg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 27, 2007, 08:19:43 pm
Playing Schattenlander gets into the mood by changing some of the lines in the ui.csv file in the languages folders. Just a couple of  line changes in the loading sequence set the mood.

Hint 9: Young men with young swords are dangerous, old men with old swords are deadly.

mfberga

I thought "Hint #1: Never spit into the wind" pretty much covered the situation.

Edit:
Actually, the line about old men with swords should be self-evident.  The classic picture of the Japanese samurai was not the 18-year-old athletic type of Western armies.  The samurai are pictured as somewhat overweight fellows between the ages of 35 and 60.

Any cowboy can tell you that, even today among "tough" people, slightly overweight middle-aged guys are usually a lot more dangerous opponents than the young punks.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 28, 2007, 12:08:27 pm
That's my favorite hint, btw. I couldn't stop laughing for a few minutes the first time I read that  :lol:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on June 30, 2007, 11:27:33 am
Harping about the price balance again.

Hosokawa bushi, on day 25 or so in the current 0.5.2 game. Scraped together around 175k total with trade at level 2.

All npcs have the white peasant armor (26/10, name escapes me) and mostly whatever weapons they came with. Stole the Sharp wave from Yamamatsu right off the bat which makes all the difference in the world and saves you a lot of mon if you enjoy fighting with a sword from horseback (no need for a long tachi for around 100k). Managed to buy a rusty o-yori for 126k and found a 44 armor helmet from a mountain bandit party. Bought some rusty boots and crude ode gloves.

No idea how many parties of bandits, patrols and Yamana patrols I've annihilated, yet I've gotten one(!) decent helmet (as in over 1 armor value), at most 5 harate/similar armor and at best an ono in the weapon category.

It's playable, just that there's no way in hell that my npcs will get a decent armor upgrade, or my character to wear anything other than rusty or crude items.

If the tough parties, ie elite patrols and maybe sea raiders, would actually drop what they are wielding, the problem would pretty much solve itself, but that's a given (something must be wrong with the helmet drop table though, loads of bandits with the 40+ armor helmets and one has dropped so far).

Or just cut the trade penalty for items in half or remove it completely and things would become a lot better.  :D
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 30, 2007, 05:25:39 pm
Loot percentage is set too low.  It's a bug.  We're aware of it, and it will be fixed (or at least worked on) ... just as soon as the next fixed version is up. 
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on June 30, 2007, 08:56:41 pm
Could you make grenade-like weapons? Throwing particles with an area damage. Like modify a stone to a explosive or something. Ninjas used explosives in the old days, right? So it should work well in this mod.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 30, 2007, 09:28:39 pm
Could you make grenade-like weapons? Throwing particles with an area damage. Like modify a stone to a explosive or something. Ninjas used explosives in the old days, right? So it should work well in this mod.

The ninja used smoke and fire as distractions and for concealment, seldom as weapons.  The low-grade black powder in use in Chinese fireworks simply did not have the explosive power to propel shrapnel with the force to cause significant injury, unless you were talking about a wagon-load of it.  Liquid incendiaries, like alcohol, were really only useful for setting fire to structures - they did not have thin-walled glass beer bottles for the classic "Molotov Cocktail", nor concrete streets on which to shatter them when thrown.

China was also using black-powder rocket artillery in this period, but again, more to set fire to wood and thatch structures than to harm infantry (the warheads were usually black powder and tar) ... and those systems were certainly NOT man-portable.

So no, the ninja did not have hand grenades... at least not until the late 18th century, when they were introduced from the west.  That was the Arabs, about this period, who started building anti-personnel grenades using naptha (not Chinese-type black powder).

Plus, the high point of the use of "ninja" (specialized assassins, as a subset of "shinobi" - spies and covert agents) was a good deal later than the setting of this mod anyway.  There are plans for scripted career paths for shinobi in the mod, eventually ... but we will not be giving them hand grenades.

------------------------------------

Unrelated, but technically similar, was the use of blinding and irritating agents ("metsubishi") and simple traps ("tetsubishi"  - usually variations on caltrops).  They were certainly not exclusively weapons of shinobi ... the samurai were quite fond of such as well.

Both of those would be area-effect, of sorts.   It would be a technical nightmare to program them.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on July 01, 2007, 02:14:23 am
Unrelated, but technically similar, was the use of blinding and irritating agents ("metsubishi") and simple traps ("tetsubishi"  - usually variations on caltrops).  They were certainly not exclusively weapons of shinobi ... the samurai were quite fond of such as well.

Both of those would be area-effect, of sorts.   It would be a technical nightmare to program them.

Caltrops etcetera, if the engine supports it, could just be an area on the battlefield, directly behind your horse/ass, that cuts movement speed by X for Y time for everything that runs over it. Voila, all done.  ;)

Speaking of traps, that led me to wishing there was a feasible way to include ambushes in M&B. Surely the bandits would lay in wait for the unwary supply train or peddler along the major arteries/bridges. Make some pretty roads on the map, hardwire the route into some merchant parties or whatnot and make the enemy party (or player party, admit that it would be, well, neat) "invisible" in some way and then let them pounce.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 01, 2007, 03:04:16 am
Unfortunately, stealth is one thing the M&B engine does not currently support.  There is no good way to do it in the current engine, without creating some kind of very stereotyped troll bridge where everything that goes across it gets attacked.

Plus, caltrops don't just slow movement.  Those things hurt.  But seriously, anything area-effect in M&B is a real problem to code.  It has been done, but not easily.  Special effects like stun, blindness, or slowing movement are even harder to do.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: mfhberg on July 01, 2007, 08:46:55 am
Would it be possible to make transparent or single pixel party icons? The parties would still leave tracks, but wouldn't show up on the map. That's about the only way I can see to do stealth on the main map.

mfberg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 01, 2007, 08:51:16 am
Would it be possible to make transparent or single pixel party icons? The parties would still leave tracks, but wouldn't show up on the map. That's about the only way I can see to do stealth on the main map.

mfberg

You could hide someone from the player with graphics, but all of the other AI units on the map would react to them normally ... therefore ruining the effect of bandits ambushing caravans and such.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on July 02, 2007, 02:21:12 pm
Around day 70 in the game, just played the last five or so letting the game run without fog of war to check things out.

Three hosokawa patrols spawned on the Iwaji/Sumuto island, along with a few scouts, travellers and messengers. They feel pointless there, maybe remove those spawning points?

Town patrols, "Patrol", seem to spawn at party size 20 regardless of my level or day, seems very small at this point in the game. Feels small to begin with? Also related, the bug about them not counting toward the "Defeat enemy local garrisons quest", simple naming problem?

The army upkeep fee that I keep getting hit with at random could bear explaining somewhere. I didn't dare try to use a single fort this game but last game it felt like those made the upkeep crazy high?

Overall, it feels like Hosokawa and Yamana patrols gobble up river pirates and sea raiders at an alarming rate early to mid game. I had serious problems finding anything south of Kyoto to fight since anything that spawned got violated by the patrols/armies. Not a big issue now when the pirates and raiders are near 80 in size, I reckon it will be turning the other way soon.

Loot is actually not as horrible as it seemed at first, in a way at least. You can afford rusty stuff pretty well and at least get by. No possible way to raise a million or so just to get pristine armor though. I know it will be tweaked/fixed in the next version, just wanted to say that it's not as horrible as it seems at first so it doesn't swing too far the other way. Especially not since the only real goal at the moment is to rise in ranks and get that spiffy new piece of gear.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: comikal on July 02, 2007, 04:10:13 pm
Suggestion for the low loot and what not. Since craftmod has gone basically public source, is it possible to get scrap items and have NPC smithies make them? For example, you take out 30 river pirates, and get 15 actual rags. You take them to a town and the smithy can make improvised quilted armor with the help of some commodities sold by merchants. It would make more sense for smithies to craft things for you rather than have a huge selection of stuff you can't afford. Also, following Ron's remark about being able to afford a weapon in cash is probably a sign of nearing retirement, it would fit with blacksmiths not having 18 weapons for sale that cost more than 50k.

It's just an idea, would be a lot of coding to do, especially if different towns could make different armors/weapons. Such as Ine providing sharkskin haramaki-do.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 02, 2007, 04:20:01 pm
I want to say, for the record, that only the wealthiest, most highly ranked (read - the Shogun's lieutenants, likely to hold court rank, etc.) bushi every owned 'pristine', high-quality armor. The stuff was EXPENSIVE, on a scale we would find difficult to comprehend for something that size. Just like few people every own a Testarossa or a Murcielago, very, very few ever owned the high-end Japanese armors.

Also, I'm unaware of any version of a haramaki made of sharkskin. I would be interested in seeing your sources.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on July 02, 2007, 04:56:33 pm
I want to say, for the record, that only the wealthiest, most highly ranked (read - the Shogun's lieutenants, likely to hold court rank, etc.) bushi every owned 'pristine', high-quality armor. The stuff was EXPENSIVE, on a scale we would find difficult to comprehend for something that size. Just like few people every own a Testarossa or a Murcielago, very, very few ever owned the high-end Japanese armors.

Yup, that point has been made clear and I understand it fully. And as I said, even with loot not working the way it should or what not, you can still get by fairly well.

On the flipside, it seems, well, a waste to have smiths offering items which the player cannot purchase, or if they're lucky, buy one of ever (normal/thick/reinforced oyori and such). One of those playability vs realism vs "fun" issues perhaps? Guess it comes down the hero factor; is the player's character "special" or not. And even then, if even the Shogun's bosom buddies couldn't get their hands on the Good Stuff back then, I suppose it becomes a moot point in a way if going purely realistic?

And in the end it's not game breaking or anything, just a bad habit of nitpicking over the few flaws that can be seen in an awesome mod and I'm sure we'll all play it happily regardless, I know I do.  ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 02, 2007, 06:54:32 pm
Considering the level of fighting going on, a lot more "good stuff" would be up for sale than normal.  That would be because the original owners died, and whoever looted it needed the cash for their war effort more than they needed it.

And I've never heard of sharkskin being used in Japanese armor.  "Sane" - rayskin - is used in wrapping the sword hilts, and as sandpaper in polishing blades.  Outside of that, as far as I know, shark skin has no military use.  It's much too thin to ever turn into armor - you would need a hundred layers of it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: comikal on July 03, 2007, 08:09:18 am
Oh, sorry for the confusion, but it was just an example. I was just bouncing ideas around. But would that be more or less favorable to code?


EDIT: Didn't want to double post, but is it possible to add improvised head armor of some sort? Like a cooking pot or something? The peasant armor is nice but it sucks to still have a lot of weakness where it counts.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 03, 2007, 08:26:22 am
Well, it's possible to code certain shops having certain items, or items being cheaper in certain places (as the merchants do, or, for example, the way TLD gives mounts and armor to certain factions).

Thing is, with all of the fighting, 98% of the weapons and armor that were for sale would not be recently manufactured.  Some of the armor would be "refurbished", in the sense of patching up the arrow holes and cleaning off the blood ... but not new.  Therefore, it makes little or no sense to have certain armors or weapons in certain places.

That is also why the crafting thing really does not apply.

-----------------------------------

An idea on crafting, though.  We might want to set up a system where weapons/armor with bad mod bits (rusty, tattered, whatever) could be taken to a smith and upgraded to normal or sturdy, for less than the price of selling old stuff and trying to buy new.  That would better communicate the reality of every weapon on the field being recycled.

That, however, could be tougher to code.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 03, 2007, 10:34:45 am
Unfortunately, impossible, right now. There's currently no way to extract the imod_bit from a given item. I like the idea though. If it becomes possible to get the imod_bit of an item, the rest would be easy.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: comikal on July 03, 2007, 01:08:34 pm
Is that something that has been recently made impossible? Because the Craftmod for .751 included repairing items, which could turn a cracked spear into a reinforced spear.

--
Another idea. I believe in the readme, it says that selling items of one faction to another would be profitable. Is there anyway to mark items of a different faction? So a no dachi made by a Hosokawa smithy would be worth more to a Yamana smithy than a no dachi made by a Yamana? This would also greatly add to being a merchant or ronin, since they start out without a faction tie.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 03, 2007, 06:19:01 pm
Trade goods, man ... not weapons.  Considering all of the combat and looting going on, weapons would migrate on their own.

I'm not sure if it is working, but things like fish are supposed to be cheaper on the coast, and metal in the mountains.  Crossing faction lines would be the quickest way to find buyers for such things.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Elara on July 04, 2007, 07:05:52 pm
1. Loot: I know it's a bug that is being worked on, but really, its' ridiculous. After advancing to level 9 and slaughtering everything in my path -- raiders, bandits, village defenders, scouts, armies -- sometimes outnumbered 2 to 1 and using my head and arrows, I still can't scrap together more than about 10,000 mon at any time. The loot is so low at to be completely useless when combined with ...

2. Pricing: What exactly is the point of having gear that you will never be able to afford even on display? At some point common sense needs to kick reality. I don't particularly care what the economic factors during the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai were like, when I can kill over 100 people and loot them can I can't even afford a new sword, it's not fun. I literally can not afford to buy anything at ALL from any store except a knife, arrows, a horse, or some food for my always-dying troops. I'm still using my starting weapons at level nine because you can't find anything better. I saw a plain o-dachi and a balanced o-dachi and the difference in pricing was over 400,000 mon. That's beyond silly.

3. Party balance -- If this is the way you want loot (very little) and pricing (everything is more than you can afford) and if the map is a  pain in the ass to get across, then at least make parties less likely to harass you to death. I can't get away from forest bandits , they just keep swarming me and I typically lose most of my troops when it happens. Trading is not worth the time because I keep getting gang-banged.

This version of ONR is getting deleted, sorry, until something else kicks in. If it wasn't for the RCM I wouldn't bother with it again.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 04, 2007, 08:29:40 pm
Loot is being fixed.  Fujiwara wants it to be a little tighter than realistic ... but even the last dev copy I got had loot a little low (and it was like 3 times what it is on the released version).

Once loot is fixed, you will eventually be able to afford good weapons and armor, provided you kill enough stuff  (not every day, like before ... but it will be possible), and/or wear the loot.  That will fix the other things as well, by cascade effect.  (More loot > more money to buy/trade equipment > better equipment > more combat capability > more reasonable party balance)

Glad you like the combat model, but the RCM project owes its start to Onin-no-Ran ... don't throw out the baby with the bathwater just yet.

Bugfix should be out soon.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on July 04, 2007, 08:42:42 pm
Elara, in regards to forest bandits killing you...
The best way to deal with them is to have your troops dismount (if theyre mounted) and set them to hold ground until the cavalry storm is over.  Once thats done its a simple job to chop up any remaining resistance.  Get yourself a nice cheap bamboo spear (200 mon at your local smithy) and impale any horsies that come your way.  Your troops should beat the survivors to death on their own.
But yes, I do agree that, having slain ~80 men in a single battle, you'd get more loot than presently occures.  But thankfully the issue is being addressed.  Hopefully time time will be soon when you dont go, "OMG, A RUSTY KNIFE!  FUCK YEAH!"
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 04, 2007, 09:05:00 pm
I advise the "training" skill.  It looks like a total waste, but when you consider that it turns first-level rabble into workable troops overnight, it pays for itself pretty quickly.  Better troops are less likely to be slaughtered.  Also, surgery skill - save half your troops for only a few skill points.

Those are the ones that you don't realize how fast they add up.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Elara on July 04, 2007, 10:52:19 pm
Sheogorath, I defeated 40+ bandits once and got a single headband. Rusty knives I am actually becoming happy to see.

As for training, it generates more expensive troops I can't pay the upkeep on. The calvary storm tears apart my lines ... i am reduced to basically using them as a shield and dropping half the incoming force with arrows. Surgery I work on, but I have to make myself into the Killing Machine of Doom in order to survive, so my skill points are split. I need to get that monk.

Ron, I know RCM originated here. And the setting is beautiful, the work that has gone into it intricate, and it's great -- but if I can't enjoy it, well...it's less of the baby out with the bathwater than there is RCM in Meso, RCM in TLD, RCM in Native, etc.

There needs to be a systemic focus on making the play model work. I should stop complaining and make constructive suggestions though:

1. Add more to the economy for non-wanderers. I can't support any kind of army on my pay, and I can't loot enough to do it, and it makes no sense for a warrior to have to engage in trade to pay the bills. Since my army is constantly torn to pieces I can't seem to get any missions done, so the weekly stipend may need to be larger.

2. The map is wonderful but did Japan have no ROADS during this period? When missions take you across the islands, you literaly lose more to travel loses and delays than you make back from trades. Could there be boat travel between cities?

3. There is not much of a way to "get started" like the arena, or river pirates, that actually gives you a base to safely build your character with. If I had not focused so much on the bow and headshots I would have given up before this.



Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on July 04, 2007, 11:30:26 pm
As for training, it generates more expensive troops I can't pay the upkeep on. The calvary storm tears apart my lines ... i am reduced to basically using them as a shield and dropping half the incoming force with arrows. Surgery I work on, but I have to make myself into the Killing Machine of Doom in order to survive, so my skill points are split. I need to get that monk.

Getting all the npcs should be your first goal, solving your skill problems, giving you upkeep-free soldiers and extra carrying capacity for loot. Not to mention playing the "Welcome to Dress That Doll, tonight's grand prize is fire!" game.  ;)

And, while I bet on it being fixed in the next version, 4k mon gives you Sharp Wave and then your problems are pretty much over if you favor sword from horseback fighting.

Quote
3. There is not much of a way to "get started" like the arena, or river pirates, that actually gives you a base to safely build your character with. If I had not focused so much on the bow and headshots I would have given up before this.

Loads of river pirates south of Kyoto along the, well, river. You must have fought them during the first quest? Keep fighting them until you got some mon, good way of letting your ronin/samurai level up to mounted samurai as well and after that it's pretty easy (I favor the heavy cavalry route after that since naginata kihei and umas just tear stuff apart).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 05, 2007, 03:41:13 am
Repeat, loot will be fixed ... I hope.  Loot is being worked on, anyway.  We're on it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 05, 2007, 06:32:58 am
1) I have made another tweak to the loot code, new release should be available this evening (CDT). Even with the current version, I have found the loot drops to be sufficient to support a decent army, though not overly sized or skewed towards a lot of high-end troops, which is the whole point. Do not underestimate the strength of yari/yumi ashigaru in numbers.

2) I am working on improving the economy engine, and setting up player trade routes similar to Native (at least for now), so that trading becomes a profitable enterprise. Work is slow however.

3) Not much to get started? O_o The river pirates along the Yodo river between Yodo and Takase were designed to be just that, and after a few levels taking on the bandits near Sanda should be challenging, but not suicidal.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on July 06, 2007, 07:46:29 am
How about adding more NPC chars? And all dojos only teach you power strike, there should be dojos teaching power throw and -draw. And all the swords are also very expensive, I know they were yet every samurai had at least one decent sword, uchi-gatana or tachi. So how can they be so expensive? My logic cannot understand that.

Finwulf
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 06, 2007, 08:13:01 am
Let's see...

More NPC's - that's always under consideration.  I've actually been thinking up ideas for a couple, relative to other additions to the storyline... I'll talk it over with Fujiwara next time I catch him on MSN.  You're not the first one to think that one or two more NPC's would help.

Dojo code - still quite experimental.  Much more will be done with them eventually.  For now, consider them placeholders and previews of coming versions.

As for the weapons and armor ... well, those were the prices.

It was like buying a house.  A lot of people own one.  A lot of people owe money on theirs.  A lot of people inherited theirs from their family.  Some are a lot nicer than others.  Most people have to sell their old one to get a new one.

Same was true of swords of this period in Japan ... it was a warrior's single largest purchase of his lifetime, to acquire weapons and/or armor.  If you were impressive enough for your lord to give you some, it was a gift fit for a king.  If you were lucky, your family would pass some on to you when some older family member retired or died. 

If that doesn't help, consider it was modern military equipment at the time.  Think about them in terms of fighter aircraft today... a lot of them out there (relative to the number of pilots in active military service), but not the kind of thing you can just take out of somebody's paycheck if they break it.

Does that help the logic?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on July 06, 2007, 08:21:24 am
Yeah, it does. Thanks for the explanation, and I hope you and Fujiwara can make new NPCs for the next version.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: 12oz Jesus on July 06, 2007, 08:24:17 am
First, nice mod and great change of pace.  Kudos on the RCM, it just "feels" great and actually makes it much more possible to fight as a footman against several foes as you can kill in a single stroke so as not to get mobbed hacking on one dude.

Ok, on with the suggestion: Having to track to down and kill 10 river pirate parties is tedious after you've already done the newbie char thing and wish to start with your nifty imported character.  It would be nice to be able to by-pass this and jump right in as an experienced character.

Also, I understand that Japan is very mountainous and rugged terrain... but that map is just rediculous to move about on.  I got Obama as my boss city 1st time out and it was taking so long to travel that I started a new game hoping for a more central base location.  Can you put in some roads or at least ovbious travel "valleys"?

Anyway, thanks for all your time on the mod.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 06, 2007, 08:44:17 am
An AI-friendly map version is coming.  A lot of those traps where parties got stuck have been removed.  (I'll make another sweep and try to get the rest of them later.)  I found the problem - what was causing things to get stuck - but they have to be removed one little triangle at a time ... and as you sort-of suggested, it's a big map.

The river pirates show up everywhere anyway.  You'll probably end up killing that many of them just looking for all of your NPC's.  There's no rule that you have to drop everything else you're doing and hunt them down.  Plus, they get tougher fast now.

Glad you like the RCM ... be sure to check it out on TLD as soon as that version releases (2.3.2), and note the differences from ONR.  Reports like that are always useful to future tweaks and additions.  It's been a hard fight to get the RCM working, and it's far from over... we can always use feedback.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Elara on July 06, 2007, 05:46:08 pm
More suggestions.

Vassalage should have rewards. Didn't some samurai have their armor and/or weapons crafted and given to them by their daimyo during the later periods in the intercine fighting? It seems to me that reward weapons and armors would be good benefits for the warrior (bushi) character.

I remember playing a game in the late 80's (I think) called Sword of the Samurai. The periods weren't exactly contiguous, but it was basically organized around you building up a fief in the service of your lord, etc. Are forts ever going to develop into something like that that can support economic factors?

I wouldn't mind the map being spastastic if there were clearly defined zones where you could see the terrain was smooth and easy to use.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on July 07, 2007, 04:56:19 am
And another suggestion, now that Craftmod is open source, why not implement it to ONR? You could be a master blacksmith and earn lots of money.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 07, 2007, 05:12:45 am
And another suggestion, now that Craftmod is open source, why not implement it to ONR? You could be a master blacksmith and earn lots of money.

Because a decent sword takes a year of work to make by yourself.  (Enough people and you can turn out fair blades fast enough, but that's a lot of people.)  Most players would not settle for pushing the "whack iron with hammer" button for a year.  Becoming a master swordsmith takes at least 10 years of apprenticeship, during which time whatever you make goes to pay for your schooling. 

Armor is worse.  Even with modern materials and tools, it takes dang near forever to make any kind of armor.  Even the knife-resistant vests I make take literally hundreds of hours - and I start with modern drawn steel wire, not a forge and a lump of iron ore.  Armor in that period took an army of guys with hammers, or all the leather from several cows ... and in Shinto, leather tanners were considered unclean (they handled dead animals), so no samurai would take the job.

So no ... blacksmith is not a good career path.  Not for this game anyway.  Certainly not a job for a warrior.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: comikal on July 07, 2007, 09:51:15 pm
Would crafting then be available for kuge and merchants?

Also, were there any competitions of battle between people? It would be nice to have a type of arena. Either that or an expanded duelist system. By the way, what are future plans for duelists?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 07, 2007, 10:10:43 pm
If we ever get all the politics in place, I suppose Kuge could own a village, which would contain a blacksmith shop.

Fujiwara has a plan to do customized weapons and armors, which you could order from the appropriate smiths.

As for the duelists, well ... they do about everything that duelists can do.  Some of them may eventually be added to cities, randomly hanging around a dojo or inn. 

Also, the dojo code is expected to be expanded greatly, to include more practice combat and eventually, some more story-related developments.

But none of these are going to happen soon - these are all long-term plans.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on July 08, 2007, 10:18:15 am
Well, if blacksmithing is out of the question, then what about woodwork and tailoring? You could make bokkens and bos and such, and make clothing, varying in quality and selling them with profit.

If I was wrong again that would be the sixth time...
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 08, 2007, 10:34:04 am
Theoretically possible, although it would be stunningly boring.  Also, while possible for merchants, no samurai would do this kind of work ... or if he did, he would be laughed out of town.

Come on ... forget hard work, and go kill something.  "The way of the samurai is found in resolute acceptance of death."
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on July 08, 2007, 10:47:47 am
Theoretically possible, although it would be stunningly boring.  Also, while possible for merchants, no samurai would do this kind of work ... or if he did, he would be laughed out of town.

Come on ... forget hard work, and go kill something.  "The way of the samurai is found in resolute acceptance of death."

Now who was the person to say that you should learn to know the ways of each caste?  :lol:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on July 08, 2007, 05:28:37 pm
Not sure where to put this since it's pretty much a musing in regards to M&B in general, but, would it be possible to raise the movement speed of infantry units on the map? And would it make sense to do so? This might actually not fit with ONR's setting but more so in native/TLD/etc.

The backing behind it would be that before the notion of actually forming "real" cavalry entered some cultures' minds (being from Sweden myself, I can just back that up here with near certainty and I certainly acknowledge the fact that we were rather backwards until the 12th century or so) people rode their horses to the battle, tied them up, formed ranks and then bashed away at each other at the nearest field. I presume this depended heavily on the horses themselves and their suitability for the battlefield. Eastern horses, as far as I know, tended to be a wee bit more agile and faster than the sturdy north-northwestern stock?

My point would be that even if your infantry wasn't cavalry (uhm, duh), would they have access to something akin to packhorses to facilitate faster travel? It makes sense to me, given the relatively small size of your force and thus rather feasible option to acquire mounts for them? Certainly after a battle against other mounted enemies, what with all the ownerless horses wandering about afterward. Perhaps an item in your inventory rewarded as a quest or something paid for, "mounts (or spare mounts) for the party, speed increased by X%".

It's just always bugged me that I can't go pure infantry and catch up to an enemy party that's hellbent on running from me.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 08, 2007, 07:17:46 pm
Daergar,

While you are right that an army didn't travel without any type of horse, the mechanics of the engine set an upper limit to the speed of parties on foot. This can be modified DOWN with larger numbers of troops, baggage, etc., but the only way to make the faster is to make them cavalry.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 08, 2007, 07:57:31 pm
M&B does offset the weight of goods carried based on extra horses in your inventory, so the "pack horse" is rather a reality.

As for infantry riding to war, there are some historical examples of such ...  But the samurai were originally horse archers, so if they had horses, they probably stayed on them.  You could order cav to dismount, if you just wanted the mobility of cav but preferred combat on foot.

And Japan's little mountain ponies were not as strong as the much larger European horses.  Tough for their size, but not too impressive to look at.

-------------------------
Fujiwara:  TLD did write a code to make foot scout units and uruk-hai actually increase party speed ... it is possible to model that sort of thing, if a person really wanted to.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on July 09, 2007, 01:52:47 am
M&B does offset the weight of goods carried based on extra horses in your inventory, so the "pack horse" is rather a reality.

As for infantry riding to war, there are some historical examples of such ...  But the samurai were originally horse archers, so if they had horses, they probably stayed on them.  You could order cav to dismount, if you just wanted the mobility of cav but preferred combat on foot.

And Japan's little mountain ponies were not as strong as the much larger European horses.  Tough for their size, but not too impressive to look at.

Yeah, it just never felt, to me anyway, that the inventory horses made any significant impact on the speed. Maybe that increase is modifiable and thus offers a neat solution?

And cavalry dismounting, well, differences between units makes it unappealing. If I wanted an anti-cavalry party with foot unit X, making horse unit Y dismount doesn't amount (heh) to the same thing. I know what you're saying though and it's the solution I've had to use.

About horse archers and Japanese ponies, that's certainly valid logic and I mostly posed the question here because I knew which people would respond.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 09, 2007, 02:57:34 am
Actually, for ONR, you will find that the mounted and non-mounted units are otherwise armed and equipped very much the same.  The yari and naginata are the same for mounted and foot units, the bows are the same bows, the armor is at least similar.  Some foot units use katana instead of tachi - a little faster and a little lower damage - but that's not really significant.

That's probably unique to Japan ... the samurai were warriors, not soldiers.  It was not just their job to fight - it was their purpose in life to be ready for anything.  Their archers were also shock troops, their horse lancers were just as deadly on foot ... you get the idea.

I don't really think the extra horse effect can be edited ...and it only really applies to offset the weight of goods carried, so unless you're carrying quite a bit of extra food or something, it is likely not noticeable.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: mfhberg on July 09, 2007, 10:30:56 am
Weapon and armor modifier bonuses look to be close to the same as in native. With the increased damage of RCM and the nice prices in ONR a slightly larger bonus or negative would work better to differentiate between decent weapons and armor and poorly cared for weapons and armor. If a percentage modifier is available (heavy = +x% damage or reduction) I think that would work work better.

How about a minimum weapon skill to follow the path in the dojos? Yesterday I completed one of the archery paths with a 60 in archery just by dodging arrows until they ran at me.

mfberg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on July 09, 2007, 10:42:54 am
I do definitly prefer the gatana to the tachi when on foot.  That little bit of extra speedcan be a lifesaver when youre surrounded by a crowd of bamboo-pole wielding peasants intent on beating the crap out of you for an hour, just as much as that little bit of extra length on the tachi is vital on horseback.
I dont know about others, but I personally find spears tough to use on foot, its hard to, in the thick of battle, get a good thrust.  For some reason my guy seems to prefer to take the time to haul the spear all the way off to one side and hit people with the shaft rather than the head, and since the spears that only thrust are rather impractically long...
Of course, theres something fun about going into battle with an O-Dachi, heavy yumi and that massive 400-length spear whose name I cant remember.
"Look at me!  I'm overcompensating!"
:P
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 09, 2007, 06:10:42 pm
Weapon and armor modifier bonuses look to be close to the same as in native. With the increased damage of RCM and the nice prices in ONR a slightly larger bonus or negative would work better to differentiate between decent weapons and armor and poorly cared for weapons and armor. If a percentage modifier is available (heavy = +x% damage or reduction) I think that would work work better.

How about a minimum weapon skill to follow the path in the dojos? Yesterday I completed one of the archery paths with a 60 in archery just by dodging arrows until they ran at me.

mfberg

The equipment mod bits are not editable, tragically.  However, they are not that unreasonable.  Same way a kitchen knife can kill just like a quality tanto, so rusty and chipped weapons can still be sharpened enough to do a pretty good job.

The dojo code is preliminary.  A lot more will be done with them in future versions.  Right now they are sort of a placeholder for coming attractions.

I do definitly prefer the gatana to the tachi when on foot.  That little bit of extra speedcan be a lifesaver when youre surrounded by a crowd of bamboo-pole wielding peasants intent on beating the crap out of you for an hour, just as much as that little bit of extra length on the tachi is vital on horseback.
I dont know about others, but I personally find spears tough to use on foot, its hard to, in the thick of battle, get a good thrust.  For some reason my guy seems to prefer to take the time to haul the spear all the way off to one side and hit people with the shaft rather than the head, and since the spears that only thrust are rather impractically long...
Of course, theres something fun about going into battle with an O-Dachi, heavy yumi and that massive 400-length spear whose name I cant remember.
"Look at me!  I'm overcompensating!"
:P

Spears ARE hard to use in close quarters.  And by the way, that's a blade slash (like a glaive), not a blow with the shaft.

Seriously, don't use automatic attack direction in ONR.  If you do, you will never get stab attacks from the spears.  Use one of the mouse options.

That extra speed is also why the Samurai carried TWO blades in their belt - a long sword and a short one.  That was not just to make them look scary.

And yes, you're very badly overcompensating.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: mfhberg on July 10, 2007, 12:17:58 am
The equipment mod bits are not editable, tragically.  However, they are not that unreasonable.  Same way a kitchen knife can kill just like a quality tanto, so rusty and chipped weapons can still be sharpened enough to do a pretty good job.

Too bad, the only changes I made are including balanced and well-made bows and arrows.

mfberg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: zjhann on July 25, 2007, 04:41:28 pm
a couple of questions actually, what does monks do? i think i bumped into one but they never did anything.
also does duelist give you items or more experience or enhanced gameplay experience?
they were rather easy to kill
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 25, 2007, 07:23:23 pm
a couple of questions actually, what does monks do? i think i bumped into one but they never did anything.
also does duelist give you items or more experience or enhanced gameplay experience?
they were rather easy to kill

Um... which monks?

And the duelists were just part of Japan - swordsmen moving from place to place offering/accepting challenges to duels.  They don't do a lot right now, but more will likely be done with them later.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: zjhann on July 25, 2007, 11:21:43 pm

Um... which monks?


there was this army of one monk guy. it was like yamabushi or duelist. it was just wandering around says traveling to the whatever the name of the temple is.
speaking of which, lets make the monk in the temple (not shinbo the other one) do something like heal you or allow you to recruit monk warriors or something.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 25, 2007, 11:36:28 pm
Ah, yes ... the yamabushi.  Warrior monks whose quest was to wander the earth until they discovered their destiny.

Historically, many were fantastic warriors.  Some were older samurai who retired to the temples, and then later set out on such a quest.  Others were trained in the temples by the sohei (temple guardians), before setting out on their quests.  Many ended up founding schools to teach combat, or as traveling duelists.  Some entered the service of various lords.  Some just wandered until they were eaten by wild boars or something. 

In ONR, sometimes you can talk them into joining you.

Further quests from the temples are to be added later ... we're on that one already.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on July 26, 2007, 08:52:31 am
The Yamabushi in the game always get themselves killed in battle after they have joined me (now i don't ever want anyone in my company anymore, they just get in my way).
But if you want a Yamabushi to join you and he says something like "no, i have not wandered enough" just talk to him again, if he still says no, keep talking to him untill he does join you... it's just too simple to get a Yamabushi to join you :o
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 08:57:46 am
Yeah, well, the ones in the game tend to be the same ones that got eaten by wild boars.

There was discussion on that thing about random replies and just trying again ... but nobody ever got back to it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on July 26, 2007, 09:06:05 am
 :lol: It sounds like i need those wild boars in my party... an army of wild boars! :shock:

Maybe it could be fixed with a script, it would have to make talking to the Yamabushi impossible for 24 hours after talking to the Yamabushi, or something like that.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 09:24:59 am
When the editable hit-boxes come out with the next version of M&B, the wild boars go in the game.  However, we have no intention of making them something you can recruit ... they are intended for special scenes where kuge would get together and hunt them as part of diplomatic efforts or practice/sport. 

Although an army of wild boars could be pretty effective.  There are about that many on some corn fields here and there (modern farming has increased the feral hog population to dangerous levels in at least a dozen countries, including the United States and China), and pretty much everybody who crosses them regrets it.  I would rather fire on an elephant than a stinking wild boar ... you might kill the elephant.

----------------------------------------

And yeah, a reset every 24 hours would fix the yamabushi conversation ... it just was not a priority, and so has not been done yet.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on July 26, 2007, 09:36:50 am
Hunting boars would be awesome! :)
It's perfect for my character, i love hunting and shooting bows from horseback.
Besides, it says "The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!" in my signature, it's a quote from the movie "Ran" 8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on July 26, 2007, 09:43:16 am
How about tieing prisoners to stakes, and then using your weapons on them to raise your proficiencies? Not sure how to pull this off in the M&B engine. Maybe have these prisoners spawn in some sort of small pit then can't walk out of so that can't move, and then you can go up to them and whack them all you want as long as you stay out of hand-to-hand range?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 10:05:18 am
Hunting boars would be awesome! :)
It's perfect for my character, i love hunting and shooting bows from horseback.
Besides, it says "The arrow which felled the boar... belonged to Lord Ichimonji. Drink to him!" in my signature, it's a quote from the movie "Ran" 8)

I keep a copy of that movie on DVD, along with a relatively complete collection of Kurosawa's other works.  I very much recognized the quote, and where you got the pseudonym.

-----------------------------------------------

And to that last post, if you want to do an execution, there are script commands to stop someone from moving ... but killing stationary objects doesn't seem very useful for warriors with plenty of experience at killing live targets.  I mean, to harden someone who has never actually harmed anybody before, an execution is a good training tool.  To someone who killed ten men in combat before lunch, what's the point?


Edit:
On the subject of what to do with prisoners, I discussed this with Fujiwara earlier ... he's working up a quest lineup that would allow players to work as government agents to crack down on the bandits.  Bringing in prisoners would be a big part of the requirements of such.  In support of that, I added the jitte to the latest items update - both for its symbolic value and because the blunt weapons selection was a little thin.  Prisoners could become a lot more valuable in future versions.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on July 26, 2007, 10:55:54 am
Well the thing is that the companions are nowhere near as proficient at killing than the player character. I was thinking about letting them hone their proficiencies after i go on a rampage with my tesubo
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 27, 2007, 08:26:48 am
There was a discussion started on the HW thread about enemy morale, that came to an interesting and applicable proposition.  In the gap between battle sequences, when the player is given the option of (attack, order troops to attack, and leave/surrender) ... the enemy force does not have a chance to disengage.

It needs to run a check to see if they attack or retreat (presumably the same one that determines if they attack or run on the map), and another for party speed (again, presumably the same one that determines if the player gets the "leave" option.  If they want to leave and can, it would go straight to the loot screen (maybe a message screen, "The enemy breaks and runs" "continue").  Then, their force (what's left of it) would still be on the map after the battle, like with the "leave" option.

That should be a priority ... every battle should not drag on to the last man standing.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: mfhberg on July 31, 2007, 08:26:34 pm
Just a small graphics suggestion, the lawn in front of the manors is rather high. It needs to be trimmed to a reasonable length.

(High grass in front of all manors, should be low or no grass)

mfhberg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 01, 2007, 07:49:57 pm

That should be a priority ... every battle should not drag on to the last man standing.


Especially when one man is capable of slaughtering a hundred men on his own.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 01, 2007, 07:56:03 pm

That should be a priority ... every battle should not drag on to the last man standing.


Especially when one man is capable of slaughtering a hundred men on his own.

It would have to be a pretty tough warrior up against pretty pathetic opponents ...

Not saying that couldn't happen, now - but don't over-estimate your abilities.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on August 02, 2007, 10:46:33 am
It happens very often if you're a mounted archer in with lots of arrows in your chest. most peasants/bandits don't have anything better than throwing shuriken and just doesn't compare with bows. Shouldn't village defenders and bandits be issued bows as well? I've only seen mounted bandits with bows and they are terrible shots.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 02, 2007, 11:29:10 am
It happens very often if you're a mounted archer in with lots of arrows in your chest. most peasants/bandits don't have anything better than throwing shuriken and just doesn't compare with bows. Shouldn't village defenders and bandits be issued bows as well? I've only seen mounted bandits with bows and they are terrible shots.

Some of the lower-end bandits have bows, and others have Chinese-type crossbows and/or pellet crossbows.  Peasants and farmers may also have pellet crossbows (they were tools for hunting birds and small game, after all).  And yes, they are probably terrible shots ... most people close their eyes before firing at a human.

The village defenders are women of the bushi, and they would probably stay with their naginata.  However, their units should be mixed with other peasant/ashigaru type units who will have ranged weapons.

But in general, yes, the warrior class has a huge advantage over commoners.  There were two kinds of people in Japan at the time - those who owned sharp swords, and those who ate millet.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 02, 2007, 01:30:25 pm

That should be a priority ... every battle should not drag on to the last man standing.


Especially when one man is capable of slaughtering a hundred men on his own.

It would have to be a pretty tough warrior up against pretty pathetic opponents ...

Not saying that couldn't happen, now - but don't over-estimate your abilities.

Its not that hard in Onin no Ran if you've got a horse and some patience.  Taking out patrols and such on your own isnt that difficult, although I admit some luck is involved in that initial charge when the AI has everybody grouped together.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: MaD LOrD on August 07, 2007, 10:30:23 am
I've had an idea about looting duelists. What if after defeating the duelist you get a dialog with him,and have three options - to let him go, to kill and loot him, and to take him as a prisoner? These options might affect your reputation, after all. Also, I think it's kinda silly to have same testing-quests for both sides of konflict (meaning hasawaka and the other guys, forgot the name), isn't it?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: thecorinthian on August 07, 2007, 06:26:30 pm
1. Why can't i thrust my spear from horseback?
2. Yari and nagnigata samurai seem to only use their swords
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 07, 2007, 07:58:43 pm
1. Why can't i thrust my spear from horseback?
2. Yari and nagnigata samurai seem to only use their swords


1.  Because it required more directions with the mouse than we had.  You could not effectively do everything you needed to do.  Something had to go, and that offhand jab from horseback looked the most absurd (really, you ever try that?), so it went.

Also it was removed from the really long spears (fukuro-yari and omi-yari) because such an attack would be impossible.  Those would be hard enough to use with both feet planted firmly on the ground - using them as a fixed lance is about the only thing you can do from horse.

2.  Weapons selection is random and/or arbitrary - you give somebody two weapons, and they use whichever one they want.  You put four weapons in their inventory, and they are randomly assigned two before the battle, and then they pick one to use.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on August 08, 2007, 02:45:16 am
It's probably best then to remove swords from yari and naginata troops then. the M&B AI currently does NOT change melee weapons in the middle of a battle.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 08, 2007, 04:19:01 am
It's probably best then to remove swords from yari and naginata troops then. the M&B AI currently does NOT change melee weapons in the middle of a battle.

Which would, in turn, make them vulnerable in close quarters.  Does the AI never switch weapons?  Because I know they switch between ranged and melee, and I am not sure if they select the same melee weapon each time.

But yeah, that might be necessary.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 08, 2007, 09:16:13 am
Its impossible to attain perfect realism in this case without the switching.  From the GAME point of view, I'd say leave in the swords, since the standard AI tactic for infrantry is to get as close as possible and chop away with sword, spear and hatchet and its hard for even the HUMAN player to keep them at a distance when not on horseback.
From a historical POV, the yari/naginata were important tools in Japanese warfare.

Would it perhaps be possible to tell yari/naginata Samurai to use yari/naginata when mounted, and swords when dismounted?  Perhaps not %100 historical, but reasonable within the context of the game.

And for the record, I've never personally seen the AI switch between mellee weapons.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 08, 2007, 04:09:46 pm
The AI basically has two states, ranged and melee. As I understand it, when a troop is spawned, it gets its equipment from the list given in the troops file, but not all; only one melee and one (if available, and not always even then) ranged weapon. You can get this particular spawn's DNA from the party_stack_store_troop_dna operation, and (in theory) spawn the exact same troop over and over again, with the same loadout.

I've never seen an AI switch between melee weapons either. That would require a third "mid-range" combat state, or "long range" and "short range" melee states. You'll get no arguement from me that the AI could stand to be improved.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Blademaster on August 11, 2007, 12:42:10 pm
i pretty sure nobody has suggested this... but correct me if i'm wrong.

there were many different types of sword styles around japan in the times of the onin wars, wasn't there?
that is why i suggest, if possible, different sword styles upon picking up a marked sword. this would
require the ability to give weapons individual attack motions. for greater effect, if possible, make them skills,
so that one person who knows one style doesn't know another type very well. (as a skill)

there were swords missing that i was hoping to see, namely the katana and the wakizashi

the katana would be the middle between a uchi gatana and a tachi, namely a better cut than a uchi-gatana, and slightly longer,
and a much better stab since its straiter. also, it would enable people to have a complete set (nodachi, katana, wakizashi/kodachi,tanto) because
it should have the skin of the nodachi, odachi, kodachi, ect. since there is no middle sword with a matching skin.

the wakizashi would be between a kodachi and a tanto, having greater speed than a kodachi, but more power than a tanto.
also: the short uchi gatana has a maching skin with the formentiones, but the uchi-gatana, long uchi gatana, tachi, and long tachi do not, which leaves a gap
of about 38 length points (82 to 110) so if there could be one with the reflective skin as well as the normal, that would be nice. those and the aikuchi and tanto
should also have reflective skins, so that there can be a matching set.

furthermore, im having trouble finding a plain weapon without a bunch of negative modifiers on it. japanese smiths were much better than  europeans,
so they would take good care of their stuff. most of their weapons weren't uniform in length, since each one was like a new child, so i think that every weapon
should have a short/long modifier counterpart. also, the kodachi is almost as long as the uchi gatana!

lastly, boat travel would greatly aid in getting around the map, or at least some cut out paths through the mountains.

this mod is probably the most historically accurate, beautifully made, and overall good mod made as of yet. i mean really, aside from the stuff above, i can't really nitpick
anything, so keep up the good work. really hoping for the different sword styles.



Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Yoshitsune on August 11, 2007, 04:52:19 pm

there were swords missing that i was hoping to see, namely the katana and the wakizashi

the katana would be the middle between a uchi gatana and a tachi, namely a better cut than a uchi-gatana, and slightly longer,
and a much better stab since its straiter. also, it would enable people to have a complete set (nodachi, katana, wakizashi/kodachi,tanto) because
it should have the skin of the nodachi, odachi, kodachi, ect. since there is no middle sword with a matching skin.

the wakizashi would be between a kodachi and a tanto, having greater speed than a kodachi, but more power than a tanto.
also: the short uchi gatana has a maching skin with the formentiones, but the uchi-gatana, long uchi gatana, tachi, and long tachi do not, which leaves a gap
of about 38 length points (82 to 110) so if there could be one with the reflective skin as well as the normal, that would be nice. those and the aikuchi and tanto
should also have reflective skins, so that there can be a matching set.

Well...The uchi gatana IS a katana as far as I can see - it's a question of the strange (and often vague) nomenclature often found in Japanese descriptions and further filtered through phonetic English  translations and pronunciations. Many words for the same thing in the chronicles for literary effect. The various descriptions of eboshi hats is another example.

Even in 17th Century Japan, arms and armour researchers such as Arai Hakuseki were trying to make sense of earlier centuries (There's a modern English translation of part of his seminal work "The Armour Book in Honcho-Gunkiko") .

There are a few classic "Samurai Misconceptions" that seem to pervade everywhere and aren't helped by badly researched secondary sources that get repeated again and again - look at the contemporary chronicles, screens and picture scrolls people!!!! Luckily this mod seems to have avoided most of them probably thanks to the early influence of a native Japanese enthusiast who has sadly disappeared - Ryuta - plus the willingness of fujiwara to constantly develop and improve the mod and Ron's great combat model.

1) Numero Uno:  Ninjas - or the "N word" as the Samurai Archives site refers to the subject. They didn't exist in anything resembling the modern pop-culture concept.

2) My personal bugbear. The main Japanese sword worn in battle with armour was the TACHI. This is true from the 11th Century right through to the 16th Century - look at the picture screens right up to depictions of Sekigahara and the Siege of Osaka. The "katana and wakizashi" mark/soul-of-the-samurai rubbish were worn only in the late 16th Century onwards with everyday clothes. OK so maybe a katana-type sword might be carried as an extra weapon alongside the tachi in battle as a personal affectation but in that case they were, at best, a tertiary weapon. The definition of a tachi was not a question of length, curvature or design - these changed over the centuries.  It was solely the method of suspending the sword near-horizontally, cutting edge downwards from straps attached to the belt.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 12, 2007, 01:15:16 am
To correct the nomenclature:

Uchi-gatana was the older form of the term.  It was later shortened to just "katana".  It refers to a lighter sword, generally for infantry use.  Fujiwara was very particular about using the term that was in common use at the time, rather than the more common but less historically accurate.  The only real difference between katana and tachi was the way they were carried, but generally weapons intended to be tachi were made for horseback use - hence the katana being slightly shorter, and somewhat lighter.  Most historical blades of this period will reflect that pattern.

Wakizashi translates like "sidearm".  It refers to any secondary sword - if you carry a five-foot-long blade over your shoulder and a katana in your belt, the smaller blade is "wakizashi".  Generally it referred to a kodachi (short sword) or large tanto carried as a backup to a katana or tachi.

And the "Ninja" ("one who is obscured") was a subdivision of Shinobi (spies/covert operatives).  They were professionals - nothing more or less.  You can still find their type working for American CIA, German GSG-9, almost any espionage or counter-terrorism organization in the world - the tools have changed slightly, but the basic job is still the same.  They are tasked to gather information, spread misleading information, and/or kill or capture particular persons.  The entire subject of shinobi will be added in the next release or two. 

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 12, 2007, 11:36:54 am
To give a sneak peek of the upcoming version:

I was not going to make another update until 0.6.0, with a good bit of new story, etc., but with M&B players being the good bug hunters they are, the bug list is pretty long, some my fault (the dialog freeze with Hyogo-bo) and some unintentional (everything else). I have already added a good bit of the systems work behind the new stuff, including becoming a monk, kengo, shinobi training, and bandits. I think what I'm going to do is finish up the basics (joining, hiring special troops) and release v0.5.4 with the bug fixes, and then proceed from there. What this basically means for players is hirable souhei, shinobi, and bandit troops, but no added quests or storyline.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: CrouchingPanda on August 12, 2007, 07:09:54 pm
Have only recently found M&B and only been playing OnR since this evening, and it is very impressive, bugs and the like aside.

As far as suggestions go a screen added to the character panel which lets you keep track of reputation standings and manually set your demeanor to a specific group would be useful. I had the idea of being a "freedom fighter" type fellow, who raids small villages and the like, kinda like a bandit but with the intent of fosteriing my own little province. as it was I couldnt seem to engage any factions without allying myself to one or the other. Maybe this is possible under the current system, but I dont know how.

A slightly pedantic suggestion now, at some point along the evolution of the mod it would be nice for all the item names to be capitalised. Its just a small niggly thing, but I think it would just make it seem a little more formal and professional. I don't know if the lack of capitalisation was a conscious decision or just the way it turned out.

anyways, great mod, I've already spent hours and hours playing it and I've only had it one night. newer better versions can't come quickly enough :)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 12, 2007, 07:20:00 pm
Actually, I was trying to remove capitalization from everything but formal names, to help players distinguish between proper names and general Japanese terms.  Maybe that was just my background in linguistics.

More missions/storyline will be added soon.  The ability to ally yourself with minor factions and independent villages (or bandits) is on the list, but it may be a while.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 13, 2007, 07:58:26 am
As far as suggestions go a screen added to the character panel which lets you keep track of reputation standings and manually set your demeanor to a specific group would be useful. I had the idea of being a "freedom fighter" type fellow, who raids small villages and the like, kinda like a bandit but with the intent of fosteriing my own little province. as it was I couldnt seem to engage any factions without allying myself to one or the other. Maybe this is possible under the current system, but I dont know how.

Actually, there is a 'debug' info screen setup as a dialog with a companion that will tell you your current standing with the two main factions, along with your standings with the most recent town you have visited and the most recent party you've encountered.

Once the bandit storyline is fully in place, carving out your own little empire will definitely be in there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: comikal on August 13, 2007, 08:14:56 am
Along with any new NPCs to recruit, will dojo masters be recruitable within a certain storyline? I think it would be nice for kenshei/kengo sotryline if the sub-class is made. Of course, you would first have to master their school and then defeat them in a duel. That way, there is a bit of a challenge.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 13, 2007, 09:44:02 am
Along with any new NPCs to recruit, will dojo masters be recruitable within a certain storyline? I think it would be nice for kenshei/kengo sotryline if the sub-class is made. Of course, you would first have to master their school and then defeat them in a duel. That way, there is a bit of a challenge.

Discussed that with Fujiwara earlier - our plan was to make apprentices to the dojo master into NPC's that would join you.  That way, the master is still there for training purposes.  This has a particular significance for the dojo at Iga ... you can imagine what kind of character the master's personal apprentice there might be.

(Note to anybody who missed the reference - Iga province is home to the Tokagure Ryu, the historically largest, and incidentally only remaining intact school of original Ninjitsu.  The masters of the dojo there probably prefer black pajamas over samurai armor, and are the kind of people you don't want to meet in an alley.)

This will lead into the addition of shinobi espionage missions.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 14, 2007, 11:44:30 am
There will be full storyline/quest progressions for all the subclasses, though these will take time. The NPCs will be in the next release however. :)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: comikal on August 14, 2007, 07:14:17 pm
Since playing the new release, I've noticed some minor irritations, such as fighting in dense fog. Maybe tracking down and killing/capturing someone in the fog can be part of the shinobi "test" or storyline. Just a thought. Though if I remember correctly, the fog only affects a human, not the AI.

Oh, and will a new troop tree be released with the next release?

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 14, 2007, 08:00:18 pm
Since playing the new release, I've noticed some minor irritations, such as fighting in dense fog. Maybe tracking down and killing/capturing someone in the fog can be part of the shinobi "test" or storyline. Just a thought. Though if I remember correctly, the fog only affects a human, not the AI.

Oh, and will a new troop tree be released with the next release?



There have not been any changes to the troop tree in some time.  A few tweaks on their equipment, but no changes to the upgrade tree.

The fog is just a graphic ... it matters not at all to the AI.  I wish we could change that, so that the AI had the same line-of-sight problems as humans.  Maybe future versions of M&B will include such.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Melambar on August 19, 2007, 11:13:58 am
I suggest to replace some original sounds on more suitable. I already tried to adapt sounds from Shogun-Total War. Is it infringement of copyrights?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 19, 2007, 11:20:37 am
I would suggest making recordings.  Its not terribly difficult and, frankly, they would be far better recordings than STW's rather poor quality sound.  Im sure somebody around here can do a passable "HOOOORA!"

Also, is there nothing that can be done about the blocking thing?  Its kinda rediculous when a guy holding a hatchet is able to block a swing from an o-dachi from horseback traveling at full speed with no effect other than 'Thunk!'
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 19, 2007, 08:48:07 pm
I suggest to replace some original sounds on more suitable. I already tried to adapt sounds from Shogun-Total War. Is it infringement of copyrights?

On your personal system, you can ... I don't think they can legally be distributed with the mod.  Doubt anybody would really care, since it's a free distribution and a piece of TW that would not hurt their market, but still...

Also, is there nothing that can be done about the blocking thing?  Its kinda rediculous when a guy holding a hatchet is able to block a swing from an o-dachi from horseback traveling at full speed with no effect other than 'Thunk!'

And no, there's nothing we can do about that.  It is possible to block a large weapon with a small one, but the impact in that example would probably knock someone down.

Then again, your guy never dislocates his shoulder when laying a tachi into a footman from the back of a running horse ... so the bugs sort of balance.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 20, 2007, 07:56:43 am
Whether it would be a copyright infringement or not, we will not be taking sounds from any other game or mod. One of the founding principles of this mod is original content. New sounds/speech/etc will be forthcoming. Be patient.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 20, 2007, 02:28:54 pm
And, like I said, Shogun TW uses 8-bit sound.  In other words, it sounds like its coming out of a Gameboy brick.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Agent Griff on August 24, 2007, 12:53:48 am
When exactly will boar-hunting be availlable? I just can't wait to chase the little buggers down through a forest.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 24, 2007, 04:54:25 am
When exactly will boar-hunting be availlable? I just can't wait to chase the little buggers down through a forest.

The next version of M&B is reputed to offer customizable hit-boxes.  Combined with the custom skeleton and animation support in the latest version of BRFEdit, that will allow modders to create animals with proper game physics.

How long it will take to actually get the buggers working right, and programmed into the game ... who knows?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 24, 2007, 01:05:46 pm
Just a quick weapons idea, obviously very low priority.
It seems like hoes were common peasant weapons in Japan (Kuwa?  Thats the best term I could find for them), which makes sense, theyre basically axes with the head turned on its side.  I cant seem to find a lot of info on them, but it seems like they'd feature in a game where there are a lot of peasants running around in an armed manner.  I know youre done adding weapons for now, but if you have a bit of extra time this seems like it'd be a little bit more in terms of immersion.

Also, its nice to see patrols back, something finally filling up all those areas where the faction patrols dont go. 

I do, however, note that the map generator will occasionaly throw out maps with totaly impassable ravines on them.  Most of the time they have an 'access point' at one end, but its still kinda wierd, and the AI cant handle them.  Im not sure how the generator works (or are they pre-made maps?), but perhaps making these shallower or more accessable would be a good idea.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 24, 2007, 08:30:24 pm
Um ... that weapon/tool ... are you talking about a mattock?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattock

Because that's really scraping the bottom of the barrel ... a shovel would make a better weapon.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 24, 2007, 08:40:09 pm
Nope, something like this (https://www.shovelandhoe.com/sc_images/products/387_image.jpg), thats obviously a modern version, but the shape is the same.  Its a heavy sharp piece of metal on the end of a pole, seems like a good peasant weapon to me.  Apparently the Okinawans developed a Kuwa Kobudo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_kobud%C5%8D#Kuwa), although the tool seems to have been Japanese as well.  Ive seen it in a few old paintings.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 25, 2007, 01:06:04 am
Yes, that would be a mattock.  A heavy hoe for digging in rough terrain, in any length.  A lot of modern picks also have a mattock blade opposite the pick point.

Okinawa did try to develop peasant combat using a garden hoe as well.  Again, really scraping the bottom of the barrel.  Their idea of fighting with a boat oar (Japanese "Eku") was better.  (There's a story that Musashi once showed up late to a scheduled duel, got out of the boat, hit his opponent with the boat oar and killed him, got back in the boat and left ... much to the dismay of the observers.)  Okinawa developed a lot of tricks for using whatever you happened to have in your hands at the time - chair, beer bottle, anything.  Good street-survival kind of stuff ... not really the way you prepare for a battle.

The peasant weapons portrayed in ONR are intended to show that common people can be militarily capable using simple tools.  The idea is not just to see what kinds of strange junk we can give them for weapons - chairs and stepladders, shovels and hoes, rolling pins and skillets and flat-irons, a sock full of gravel...

Of course, my brother has a simple rule on that ... any time an opponent pulls something strange to use as a weapon, always assume he has a plan for using it.  I mean, sure, maybe that was just the first thing he could get his hands on - but maybe it wasn't.  Maybe he thought this out, and maybe he's been practicing with whatever it is for years. 

Still, if and when we get real energetic and decide to add a bunch more items, I'll try to remember that shovels, hoes, spades, mattocks and boat oars are on the list.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sibilance on August 25, 2007, 07:51:19 am
Would it be possible to move the table with the candle in the inn away from the direct line to the entrance? As it is, I'm running right over the top of the blasted thing every time I beeline toward the baggage chest.

Makes me feel like Dick Van Dyke tripping over the ottoman :lol:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 25, 2007, 07:41:02 pm
Makes me feel like Dick Van Dyke tripping over the ottoman :lol:

*LMAO* That's one of the best things I've heard about this mod yet....
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: sdog on August 27, 2007, 08:00:40 am
recently i've been playing extensively onr. i've found some bugs (i'll post later) but more important are some suggestions for improvements to gameplay imo. i'll order them after my subjective priority.

more information for players:
- include on the character generation a hint wich modes are not fleshed out yet. like telling bushi is most advanced, ronin only rudimentary

- same for quests and paths, let players know if they can decide to join bandits, that there are no quests yet.

- for the bushi, make a quest or subclass visible from the quest screen to let players easily see where their shugo is. right now this can be a problem for players not used to japanese city names, and for casual players who load last weeks savegame, and can't remember.

- let the sensei at dojo tell players in a dialogue what skill/weapon they'll train.

- give bushi and kuge an intial quest, visit your lord in Kyoto. this helps avoiding runing around aimlessly at the beginning.

misc:
- i know someone else sugesed it already, and you didn't like it.... it's really annoying to have three grooups of different samurai ashigaru etc in your party all the time.
please put a (n), (y) and (h) behind their names, to notify the faction! then we could for example upgrade all with (n) to yari bushi, and those with (y) to melee bushi.
right now it's equally confusing and not very comfortable to use.

- swapping allegiance and class selection in the character creation screen would be sensible. the weird class 'wanderers' could be droped altogether, and bushi and kuge only would have to choose their house.

- 27 arrows in a quiver seem pretty much to me. it seems to me they would be packed so closely that the feathers would break. do you know anything about the historicaly correct count of arrows? if it was less, and it could be changed, an increase of horse archery skill and total skill of AI troops could compensate the lack of arrows.

- having to run through every city to get to the facilities, becomes a chore after a while, particulary if not mounted. please include an option to activate the city menue without visiting every facility first.

- make high quality food more rare and only smaller portions. unlike native it is not a cost factor at all. so i'll run around with dried meat all the time, to get rather high morale for my troops.



last and least, wishlist :-)
- a dojo to train single handed swords (i often prefer a tachi as my arm, and a kodachi as wakizashi)
- it'd be nice to have matching sets of suneate and kote
- lower end armours for ashigaru would be nice, like tatami-do. also jingasa as head protection or were they only of the later sengoku period?
(- i suppose a sashimono, and maybe a uma jirushi were not in use at the period of the onin wars?)

- a Tea House!....  maybe for some more civilized ways for the kuge class... but it doesn't matter for what, a tea house is always important :-)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 27, 2007, 08:24:55 am
I'll have to let Fujiwara handle most of those, but I can get a couple of them...

- The armors you are talking about all date well after the Onin War, as far as my information goes.

- Food quality and availability tweaks are on the to-do list.

- Standard for the samurai was to carry 24 arrows.  Some added a couple to that.  There was one tradition of carrying an extra, and only using it if the battle was lost.  Samurai were really pretty conservative on that - the horse archers of the Mongol Horde carried 80 arrows per man.

- and something is being done about allowing you to re-color your troops, so that not only will they stack right, they will all match on the field as well.  Not sure how it all works ... I haven't really got that far on the newest version.  (Considering how much of this thing I helped develop, I sure haven't got to play with it much in the last couple of weeks.)

- as for what is or is not developed, a lot more stuff will be at least partially developed next version, so it should be less of a problem.

- Tea houses will eventually appear.  We will need a place for negotiations, espionage, and occasionally assassinations, when the kuge and shinobi themes are fully developed.
 
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: sdog on August 28, 2007, 06:22:12 am
thanks for your reply Ron.

I'm really surprised about the amount of arrows. do you know - or have links - how they stored them, without breaking the feathers, and also access them  one by one if they're closely packed. (I got to appologize for posting a suggestion based on an assumption without any research or knowledge.)

Yesterday evening i've realized that the dialogue at your shugo, where you tell him some of his troops would belong him is the not yet functional tool to fix your troops. (at least not functional for me)


ps.: i really enjoy playing with RCM. It feels just wrong if you get a mace bashed over your head from a charging knight and you loose just a few HP... it's hard to get back to non RCM mods.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 28, 2007, 08:11:02 am
recently i've been playing extensively onr. i've found some bugs (i'll post later) but more important are some suggestions for improvements to gameplay imo. i'll order them after my subjective priority.

Thanks for playing!

Quote
more information for players:
- include on the character generation a hint wich modes are not fleshed out yet. like telling bushi is most advanced, ronin only rudimentary

This should be easy to add as a dialog biox.

Quote
- same for quests and paths, let players know if they can decide to join bandits, that there are no quests yet.

Ditto

Quote
- for the bushi, make a quest or subclass visible from the quest screen to let players easily see where their shugo is. right now this can be a problem for players not used to japanese city names, and for casual players who load last weeks savegame, and can't remember.

Good idea. I've already implemented this with subclasses, and can extend it to vassalage

Quote
- let the sensei at dojo tell players in a dialogue what skill/weapon they'll train.

Simple enough

Quote
- give bushi and kuge an intial quest, visit your lord in Kyoto. this helps avoiding runing around aimlessly at the beginning.

OK, also rather simple.

Quote
misc:
- i know someone else sugesed it already, and you didn't like it.... it's really annoying to have three grooups of different samurai ashigaru etc in your party all the time.
please put a (n), (y) and (h) behind their names, to notify the faction! then we could for example upgrade all with (n) to yari bushi, and those with (y) to melee bushi.
right now it's equally confusing and not very comfortable to use.

There is a 'troop swap' routine in place with the shugo, but I've been told it doesn't work quite right yet.

Quote
- swapping allegiance and class selection in the character creation screen would be sensible. the weird class 'wanderers' could be droped altogether, and bushi and kuge only would have to choose their house.

Good point.

Quote
- 27 arrows in a quiver seem pretty much to me. it seems to me they would be packed so closely that the feathers would break. do you know anything about the historicaly correct count of arrows? if it was less, and it could be changed, an increase of horse archery skill and total skill of AI troops could compensate the lack of arrows.

24-25 was the standard count during the period.

Quote
- having to run through every city to get to the facilities, becomes a chore after a while, particulary if not mounted. please include an option to activate the city menue without visiting every facility first.

I've set up the city menus the same as Native. If I did it like you suggest, nobody would ever go into the cities and look around.

Quote
- make high quality food more rare and only smaller portions. unlike native it is not a cost factor at all. so i'll run around with dried meat all the time, to get rather high morale for my troops.

Food is on the docket to be reevaluated.



Quote
last and least, wishlist :-)
- a dojo to train single handed swords (i often prefer a tachi as my arm, and a kodachi as wakizashi)
- it'd be nice to have matching sets of suneate and kote
- lower end armours for ashigaru would be nice, like tatami-do. also jingasa as head protection or were they only of the later sengoku period?
(- i suppose a sashimono, and maybe a uma jirushi were not in use at the period of the onin wars?)

- a Tea House!....  maybe for some more civilized ways for the kuge class... but it doesn't matter for what, a tea house is always important :-)

1) The dojo in Iga trains one-handed weapons.
2) Unfortuantely, the kote are integrated into the body armor. No can do.
3) They already have low-end armor: the hara-ate. Tatami dou came later, along with jingasa.
4) The tea house was a matter of some debate a couple of years ago, since they didn't come along until later. We'll have to see about that one
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 28, 2007, 08:55:23 am
thanks for your reply Ron.

I'm really surprised about the amount of arrows. do you know - or have links - how they stored them, without breaking the feathers, and also access them  one by one if they're closely packed. (I got to appologize for posting a suggestion based on an assumption without any research or knowledge.)

Yesterday evening i've realized that the dialogue at your shugo, where you tell him some of his troops would belong him is the not yet functional tool to fix your troops. (at least not functional for me)


ps.: i really enjoy playing with RCM. It feels just wrong if you get a mace bashed over your head from a charging knight and you loose just a few HP... it's hard to get back to non RCM mods.

I've stuffed up to 24 arrows in a leather quiver before, and never had any problem with the feathers.  I wasn't really carrying the quiver - just storing practice arrows - but the point remains.  A properly fletched arrow won't really be damaged by ruffling the feathers a bit.  (Heck, arrows don't do too bad with no feathers at all.)  Plus, 24 to a bag the size of the ones in M&B is not really all that crowded.

The Mongols carried several quivers - a couple on the saddle, one over the shoulder, one at the hip, or some similar combination.  Of course, the Mongols were crazy ... Benedict the Pole wrote about them "The hordes of the Tartars are endless.  Every time you kill one, ten more arise from the Hell from which they came.  Each one has the head of a dog, and carries enough weapons for four or five warriors."

... "enough weapons for four or five warriors"  :-\


And yeah, the RCM has been a lot of work, but it has been worth it.  A lot of people won't go back to native-based mods.  It's supposed to be coming out in several other mods, but delays have prevented them from releasing.  Mesoamerica is running custom RCM, if you haven't tried it ... it puts a really strange dynamic into play, pitting Spanish steel against a neolithic society.  (Hero&Blade and Nema's "Guardians Party" are both using rebalanced combat numbers based on RCM, but heavily adapted and not specifically my work.)  Further announcements on that are posted in the "RCM for Native" thread under "Minor Mods".  (How it ended up there, I don't even know ... but it makes a good posting site for such announcements.)  Still, ONR is the original RCM mod, and none of the others are up to its quality in balance or historical accuracy... it's been a lot of work.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: sdog on August 28, 2007, 10:11:43 am
Thanks for telling me about the quivers and arrows.

I've tried Mesoameric, however only for one evening, as the new version of ONR was released the next day. It's really peculiar to fight there. Got my ass handed to me by some people with funny shields and pointy sticks really quickly...
Only thing that really annoys me, and destroys immersion immediately is the ability of the leather shields to shield teppo shots.

Hero&Blade ain't my cup of tea. I'd wish there was a RCM for Battle of Sicily, it's a great mod. The concept would also fit well to a Ran no Jidai mod, or an alternat history japanese mod.

So far the only mod where i don't miss the RCM at all is TLD, the fantasy seting doesn't warrant a weapon realism mod imho.

RCM has some problems however, especially at higher levels, the game balance is shifted to much towards the player, making it a bit easy to play. Also the very high agility of horses makes Lancing very easy, this is only half compensated by Horses dying pretty easily. I fear that there won't be much changed in M&B to allow a better tweaking of those issues anytime soon.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 28, 2007, 11:24:18 am
Only thing that really annoys me, and destroys immersion immediately is the ability of the leather shields to shield teppo shots.

There is historical precedent for this. The U.S Cavalry early on reported that the round musket balls used in various rifles would bounce off the leather shields used by the Plains Indians. It wasn't until the late 19th Cent. that the firearm became the high-powered kill-at-a-distance weapons we think of when we hear the word gun. Early firearms were quite weak, and a sturdy breastplate or shield could effectively protect someone (witness the solid Japanese dou of the late 16th C. with proof marks indicating such protection was viable).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 28, 2007, 11:49:08 am
Interesting you would mention those points on the RCM.

The game balance shifting to the player when he gets good weapons and armor ... part of that is ONR.  There was a deliberate attempt to show the real differences between samurai and peasants.  Needless to say, if you're the samurai and mostly picking on bandits who are peasants or bottom-of-the-barrel ronin, it's pretty one-sided.  That was true before the RCM development, and has been kept for historical reasons.  Note that the upper-end AI troops are also superior in this respect, should you choose to pick on someone your own size.

As you accidentally noted, this disparity is not uniform or unique to the RCM ... in Mesoamerica, you can go out in your knight-in-rusty-armor outfit and still get your backside handed to you by a bunch of half-naked neolithics.

(The shields turning bullets, and other generally weird performance of firearms, are M&B issues.  That's one of the reasons ONR is set earlier time frame ... so it does not have to tolerate M&B's quirky handling of firearms.  Everyone hopes these issues will get better in future M&B versions.)

I found that the higher horse speeds actually made lance charges harder for me ... high closing speed does not make for a lot of time to aim.  It also makes tripping over something a lot worse, because if your horse suddenly stops, the enemy heavy horse are all over you in half a second.  The fast horses tend to get me into trouble faster than they get me out of it.  It's not so serious in ONR, but in the Holy War dev beta or unreleased RCM for TLD, where infantry tend to be heavily armed and armored, a lance charge against anything but a lone straggler is usually suicide.  If you attacked a group of no-dashi or naginata samurai - somebody who actually fights back - your lance charge won't do so well.

Also, oddly enough, optional RCM comes out with version 2.3.2 of TLD.  My alpha-test team for it were all veterans of ONR or testers on one of the other RCM mods, and they all uniformly agreed that not only did it help TLD, but that for balance issues it might actually be more playable than ONR.  It will probably still need work, as it also brought out a lot of the bugs in TLD (it was a hard fight) ... but if anything, the fantasy setting certainly did not hurt.  I was greatly encouraged by that report, as I had not been optimistic when starting that conversion.  Ironically, now there is a group who refuse to play TLD until the RCM version comes out, which was not my intent at all... I really wasn't trying to start a revolt.  Anyway, don't be too hasty to write it off because of the setting...

But back to the original question, the balance issue you were seeing on high-end is probably an intentional trait of ONR and a historical reality of ancient Japan, not a RCM issue.

-------------------------
EDIT-
Fujiwara, the shields he was talking about were not European curved metal heaters (which might turn a musket ball).  He was talking about the leather and wicker Aztec shields in Mesoamerica, which, to be honest, wouldn't stop crud.

Unfortunately, M&B does not have a "% chance to pass through shield" function.  It's either the shield stops the attack, or the shield is destroyed (but still stops the attack).  Fine for axes and lances, but odd when hit from musket or heavy European-type crossbow.

There was a good discussion on actual firearm performances of the period on the Mesoamerica board.  Somebody even found good pictures of test firings and such.

And I did get the Spanish armor percentages to turn gunfire about right.  I was surprised how well that worked out ... except for the shields, which didn't come out right at all.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 28, 2007, 12:03:39 pm

... "enough weapons for four or five warriors"  :-\

They say the same thing about Cossacks and pirates :P
Could say the same thing for Samurai as well.  I mean, you've got your primary spear/bow/giant club covered in metal spikes, then you've got a sword, then ANOTHER sword, and then maybe some shiruken/throwing knives/pointy bits of metal you just happened to pick up.  Cossacks carried nine or ten pistols (usually), along with a saber and a lance.  Some pirates carried as many pistols along with a couple of swords and a few daggers.
Worlds full of crazy people, eh? :P
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 28, 2007, 12:17:09 pm

... "enough weapons for four or five warriors"  :-\

They say the same thing about Cossacks and pirates :P
Could say the same thing for Samurai as well.  I mean, you've got your primary spear/bow/giant club covered in metal spikes, then you've got a sword, then ANOTHER sword, and then maybe some shiruken/throwing knives/pointy bits of metal you just happened to pick up.  Cossacks carried nine or ten pistols (usually), along with a saber and a lance.  Some pirates carried as many pistols along with a couple of swords and a few daggers.
Worlds full of crazy people, eh? :P

When he said that about the Mongols, he had the Polish heavy cav to compare to.  They weren't exactly poorly equipped - they all had several weapons each (lance or two, one or two swords - single-hand sword on hip plus two-hander on saddle-  plus some kind of anti-armor sidearm mace or axe, and possibly some javelins or throwing axes).  Enough weapons for four or five of them would be a LOT.  I mean, if the Mongols were just "armed", he would have said so.  They were not just "armed" - they were armed to the point of being comical, if they weren't trying to kill you.

Everybody in a fight carries at least two backup weapons.  In WW1, it was rifle, bayonet, handgun, trenching shovel and boot knife... used in that order.  That's just being "armed".  Enough weapons for 4 or 5 guys is something entirely different.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 28, 2007, 01:19:51 pm
'Course, the same could be said of the pirates and cossacks.  Both of them were known to use a weapon until it broke, toss it, grab the nearest weapon which looked at least semi-functional, and proceede to use it.  Cossacks after the Napoleonic wars even adapted weapons from street gangs, like sharpened coins or razors sewn into clothing.  If you've ever watched James Bond, think Oddjob's hat, only more real.  Not PARTICULARLY useful in most battles, but if youre right up in somebodies face it might just save your life if you happen to get into a position where you can slash their eyes with your sleeve.  Pirates did similar things sometimes.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Wood on August 28, 2007, 01:21:21 pm
"enough weapons for four or five warriors"

I'm not doubting your expertise, but I don't think that is the best source for an historical discussion. He did say they came from hell and had the heads of dogs! I think he might have been prone to a bit of exaggeration.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on August 28, 2007, 01:28:36 pm
Unfourtunatly there arent many sources regarding the Mongols that could be considered 'scientific.'  You've got your Western Europeans, who generally considered them to be the worst thing since the invention of the Muslim, and the Russian/Eastern Europeans, who had most of their records burned and were then turned into a sort of giant tax-slave state thing.  The later accounts from Eastern Europe are usually even worse than the ones from Western Europe, because Russians see Mongols the same way 19th century Americans saw Indians, only with the roles reversed, sort of.

And Siberia COULD be considered Hell, you know.  Early versions of Hell often showed it as being a cold place ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 28, 2007, 10:13:10 pm
No, other sources, including sources from Japan, described the Mongols as carrying like two spears and a glaive, three axes, two swords, two or three bows and at least 80 arrows... and that was their "light" cav, the heavy horse was even worse.

ANd the comment about the "head of a dog" was just an insult, but to white Europeans, a hard-faced Mongolian is kind of ugly.  Even in China, the Mongolians are not known for being attractive.  They are, however, tough warriors - even today.  I know quite a few people from Chinese Inner Mongolia ... none of them are pretty, but all are tough.

Seriously, the 24 arrow quiver in ONR was intended to cover the traditional armament of the Samurai - two swords, a bow, and 24 arrows.  M&B has four slots to work with, and that was how we divided it up.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: sdog on August 29, 2007, 06:41:49 am
Quote
Note that the upper-end AI troops are also superior in this respect, should you choose to pick on someone your own size.
For the higher end troops i don't have much more trouble then against peasant bandits, usually the AI just can't handle to use them effectively. So it doesn't compensate the advance of your own equipment to well. Maybe more heavily armoured ground Samurai would make it a bit more difficult.

Well right now i play rather ahistoricaly, by using heavy cavalry tactics, this makes things even easier. Maybe i'll try a no-dachi or naginata next, and stay on the ground.

A realistic simulation of armour must bring an imbalance towards well equiped troops. That's the only point of armour anyway. But the rest of the game dynamics have to compensate this. Maybe the next version of M&B with more support for formations could help there. If it is well implemented Ashigaru could be much more of a threat, and you could cease to outfit them with things to throw. (something that happens quite often is: I charge a group of maybe three or four lads, they throw pointy things at me, then as i get closer they suddenly pull out their real weapons, like yari but it takes to long, i've already cut down the first and last one and rode over the middle one.)

I'm looking forward to play TLD with RCM.


regarding the mongols,
did all the armys have supply wagons? from popular sources, and a certain traditional food in china (火锅) i had the impression that every soldier had to carry his own provisions, or at least provisions for a short campaign without being supplied. In such a case it'd be reasonable to carry more weapons, to have replacements for broken weapons.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 29, 2007, 07:57:44 am
Each Mongol warrior or small group thereof was expected to bring along a supply horse.  Usually, the supply horse was unloaded at camp, and served as a backup combat horse as well.  A well-cited battle between the Mongols and the Mamluk of Egypt cited the Mongols as each having a couple of horses, and actually jumping from one to the other as their mount got tired, allowing them to fatigue the Mamluk cav in a deliberately faked retreat.

And on the linguistic suggestion, traditional Mongolian "hot pot" is more of a tradition of groups of people playing in the food than anything else.  It's an elaborate process of boiling some spices in water and then each person playing in it to add and/or remove whatever they prefer.  It's certainly not something you would do on a military campaign, especially not across the steppes where water can be scare and cooking utensils are hard to come by and/or heavy to transport.

The Huns and other steppe peoples (so probably the Mongol Horde as well) ate their meat raw when on campaign.  The Romans documented that very well, as they were clearly horrified by the thought.

China and Mongolia do have a tradition of roasting meat over open fire (very heavily) seasoned with red pepper and cumin ... normally seen today as little "Critter Kabobs" (affectionately named by the foreign experts in China) sold by street vendors.  They really are good ... but God only knows what the animal might have been before they cooked it.  However, that was probably the remnants of the camp-food tradition, as powdered cumin doesn't weigh much, and you've already got arrows to shoot something edible.

Speaking of which ... does anybody know what Japan was using for military rations about the time of the Onin War?  I'm going to guess dried or smoked fish (or squid) and pickled vegetables were the order of business, based on what I know of food in this part of the world today and working backwards ... but that is just a guess.

-------------------------------

The "something to throw" routine was the ONLY way infantry could defend themselves from horse in this game.  Otherwise, it was a free kill to pick off the enemy archers and then just sit there on a horse and put arrows in anybody on the ground.  Sometimes you can surprise them and cut one before he can throw whatever at you ... but it's much tougher than previously.  Even good formations don't do what a little return fire will.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: sdog on August 29, 2007, 09:10:51 am
Quote
The "something to throw" routine was the ONLY way infantry could defend themselves from horse in this game.
i considered it a workaround to prevent the AI from runing behind the next horseman, if they shoot they stay.  works reasonably well, for a workaround. with a better AI code (allowing to tie them to formations) that wouldn't require such a workaround, would you keep the things to throw?

I guess even a not very tight formation of Yuma Ashigaru and Yari Ashigaru would strongly disencourage people from charging with a single horse...

Regardless of all the discussion above, what really surprises me is how well ONR combat works, if i consider all the limitations M&B has.


ps.: you made me hungry, i'm not a big fan of hotpot... but what you call critter kabobs....

and i imagine you could just go outside to get a couple, for a few renminbi. mate, you're so lucky!
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 29, 2007, 11:17:25 am
Two for one RMB on the critter kabobs...   You can live on those things ... I did for about six months one time.  However, note that they don't get along well with an ulcer - I've had to lay off of them for a while.

The things to throw are not *just* a workaround.  They are also historical.  No Japanese combat would be complete without the customary hurling of stones and other crude missiles before the infantry meet.  That was as much a trademark of Japanese combat as the absurdly decorated helmets.

Plus, even if the infantry would hold formation, they would be sitting ducks for horse archers.  More so, actually, by standing in a tight group ... make the cross-fire even worse than usual.  Fire and maneuver, even if "fire" is just hurling stones, is still their best defense.  Europe used more tight formations, because they didn't have the samurai pelting them with arrows ... but even then, they didn't try that when they came up against the Saracen and Mamluk horse-archers.  Even shield walls only work if you know the direction of the attack ... mounted archers make sure that the attack comes from all sides.

I take it you've spent some time in China?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on August 31, 2007, 07:50:34 am
Adding something to the discussion of projectiles and how to protect yourself from them. I have seen a video of a japanese sensei blocking arrows with his katana. I know, very few are capable of such a feat, but if you could pass the 8 dojos and become a kengo, maybe (if it's possible) you could somehow add a skill to deflect arrows. And if a rock is coming at you in a low speed but you still can't dodge it, with luck you could possibly hit it and blow it away.

Waiting for Ron's trademark "Knockout Response".  :lol:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 31, 2007, 09:58:40 am
Weapons do not have a 'shield' capability in M&B. This is an engine issue, and not moddable.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 31, 2007, 10:03:00 am
I hate to just shoot you out of the water, but...

1.  That arrow block/catch trick is choreographed as heck.  It's done with the most puny bow they can find, so the arrows are moving so slow that my grandmother could dodge them.  Then, the shooter signals the target before firing, to give him plenty of time to get ready, and they arrange ahead of time where each shot is to be fired.  The way it's set up, any actor could do it ... but it's utterly useless against someone who is trying to kill you.

2.  A rock coming at you at low speeds would be rolling on the ground.  A rock thrown at your head for the purpose of harming you is not coming at low speed.

Realistically, the only defense for that sort of thing is to MOVE, and so make yourself less likely to be hit.

In M&B, a few points in athletics will help, if you're fighting from the ground.  A horse with high maneuver if you're mounted will get the same effect.  When they open fire, don't just sit there.

The real way to dodge a bullet at close range is to lower your head and move fast at a 45 degree angle off of the line of attack (preferably toward the shooter's back, relative based on whatever shooter's stance he is using).  That creates the maximum deflection angle plus change of distance, which should throw off both his aim and his ability to focus on you and judge distance.  Odds are he will underestimate your closing speed or angle and fire over your shoulders, especially if he is scared, confused, or not a professional shooter.

Same is true with arrows or rocks.

Anything else is Hollywood.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on August 31, 2007, 10:36:01 am
Yeah, well, I was sort of expecting that... Anyway, I have noticed that O-haraate costs way more than a battered haramaki do, is that really intended? Because I don't think anyone would want to buy a o-haraate if they could get a haramaki do instead. Weird? I know, O-haraate is much lighter, but the protective stats are, well, rather junky.

EDIT: And Ron, I know it was a pure shoot of luck, but I once blocked a airsoft bullet fired at me from 8 meters with a PVC pipe mock sword.  :lol:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 31, 2007, 11:28:17 am
Yeah, well, I was sort of expecting that... Anyway, I have noticed that O-haraate costs way more than a battered haramaki do, is that really intended? Because I don't think anyone would want to buy a o-haraate if they could get a haramaki do instead. Weird? I know, O-haraate is much lighter, but the protective stats are, well, rather junky.

EDIT: And Ron, I know it was a pure shoot of luck, but I once blocked a airsoft bullet fired at me from 8 meters with a PVC pipe mock sword.  :lol:

Yeah, my brother dodged an RPG-7 rocket that would have hit him in the head.  (Just south of the Saddam Canal in Nassyria, Iraq.  2nd AAV Battalion, 2ND Marine Division lost an entire platoon that day... somebody forgot to dodge.)  Wasn't really a planned event, and I don't advise it as a defensive strategy against man-portable antitank missiles.

I've heard of guys leaning quickly to one side and avoiding handgun rounds at point blank as well.  They're taking advantage of the fact that a lot of people close their eyes before pulling the trigger.  Again, you might get away with that, but it's more luck than skill ... you're betting on the incompetence of your attacker.

If the samurai decided to put an arrow in you ... they would probably do it, and little tricks and lucky shots would probably not save you.

------------------------------

On the prices, you will find that anything in poor condition will sell for considerably less than anything in better shape.  If you have more than the minimum strength requirements, plan to fight from horse and so don't mind the extra weight, and don't mind wearing shabby-looking armor, then you can get a bit of a discount on your armor that way.

Also true of weapons ... a rusty tachi will still cut a lot more than a superb-quality kodachi.  The loss of potential from the weapon's poor condition may or may not make up for the difference in price, but if you're short of cash, you take what you can get.

That is also true in the modern world ... almost anything used or looking slightly worn sells for MUCH less than a new one.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on September 03, 2007, 02:55:27 pm
Just a quick question, but are you guys gonna brush up the armor graphics a bit?  The floating o-sode and straw hats are kinda wierd :P
Oh, and I've noticed on the red O-Sode Do Maru, several surfaces are bright green and untextured, which looks kinda wierd >_>
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on September 05, 2007, 11:56:12 am
Just a quick question, but are you guys gonna brush up the armor graphics a bit?  The floating o-sode and straw hats are kinda wierd :P
Oh, and I've noticed on the red O-Sode Do Maru, several surfaces are bright green and untextured, which looks kinda wierd >_>

Without someone very competent in model rigging, probably not. The kasa (straw hats) should be attached to the head, though.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on September 05, 2007, 01:35:12 pm
Eh?  Maybe it just looks like its floating due to vanishing hair.
Oh well, thanks though, 'tis still a great mod even if I dont get to be a straw hat samurai.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on September 05, 2007, 08:38:08 pm
An answer, I think, to our loot issues:

http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,881.msg14923.html#msg14923
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 05, 2007, 09:36:02 pm
Well, I guess that means the loot solution is to go back and add 3 of everything in every unit's inventory, to make sure it catches... except the bandits, as they have a lot of stuff already.

In a word, that sucks.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: MaD LOrD on September 16, 2007, 10:26:39 am
just a question, when exactly europeans brought firearms to japan? is it possible to maybe add some mysteriouse european party in the game (some kind of bandits), which have guns?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ren on September 17, 2007, 09:03:59 am
i dont know if this has been suggested but can u add a dojo to train your fists in the monk temple,it be fun,killing an enemy bushi with your fist,like martial arts and i think iga should hav a smithy specialising in shurikens,it IS the shinobi village.why do bandits spawn so fast?i used the ctrl+t cheat to check bandits spawn and found out that your have more than 10 parties of bandits by day1 afternoon.can someone give me the list of dojos towns,thank you before hand
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 17, 2007, 09:42:18 am
just a question, when exactly europeans brought firearms to japan? is it possible to maybe add some mysteriouse european party in the game (some kind of bandits), which have guns?

Firearms, in any man-portable version, did not even exist in Europe at the time of the Onin War.

(I say, in man-portable versions - there were some crude devices for launching "Greek Fire" clear back in the Roman period and before, but they weren't really "firearms" in any effective sense.  Ballistic battering rams may have appeared around that time ... I can't find a solid source on them.  China was using rocket artillery, but it was only useful for setting fire to thatch huts.)

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on September 17, 2007, 04:05:15 pm
i dont know if this has been suggested but can u add a dojo to train your fists in the monk temple,it be fun,killing an enemy bushi with your fist,like martial arts and i think iga should hav a smithy specialising in shurikens,it IS the shinobi village.why do bandits spawn so fast?i used the ctrl+t cheat to check bandits spawn and found out that your have more than 10 parties of bandits by day1 afternoon.can someone give me the list of dojos towns,thank you before hand

Because there is no hand to hand skill to train.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: ManOfHonor on September 26, 2007, 01:38:10 pm
Because there is no hand to hand skill to train.

Saddly....


I always wanted to take out an olog-hai with my fists... Though it never really works too well..


Low level bandits in ONR don't react well to a fist to their face though, I've found XD


Getting the fist there is the problem..



Damn you native, make hand to hand a skill!
My iron fist is used for more than crushing nations you know!



As for suggestions.....


How about an in game dictionary of sorts?


Talk to a hero, and have a dictionary option, with words sorted into groups, then alphabetically.
(Or maybe have it accessible by asking a merchant what the locals are saying twice in a row, if that is possible, I forget if I saw that in M&B or somewhere else, anyways have something that says how to access the dictionary as well, perhaps one of the Hints on the loading screen)

For example-

Click Dictionary - then Towns - then g->n - then Kyoto - To get some relevant information on Kyoto


With the same kinda thing for weapons, they could be sorted by type, either melee and ranged, then one handed/two handed/polearm/thrown and such.



Though this shouldn't exactly be a top priority thing, just a little extra, since I'm usually confused about which weapon type I want, or where some obscure town is, or what some classes of NPCs are supposed to be. Even though most of this information is on the forum, it would be neat to have it ingame as well XD

So instead of "Use search!" You can say "Use the ingame dictionary!"
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 26, 2007, 05:50:58 pm
The new version, 0.89x, has an in-game guide/dictionary/whatever.  Total conversions like ONR will eventually have to make use of it, to complete the conversion ... but it's a lot of typing, so it may be a while.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on September 26, 2007, 08:09:51 pm
The new version, 0.89x, has an in-game guide/dictionary/whatever.  Total conversions like ONR will eventually have to make use of it, to complete the conversion ... but it's a lot of typing, so it may be a while.


It does? I missed that.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 26, 2007, 08:30:04 pm
The new version, 0.89x, has an in-game guide/dictionary/whatever.  Total conversions like ONR will eventually have to make use of it, to complete the conversion ... but it's a lot of typing, so it may be a while.


It does? I missed that.

Yeah ... under "quests", there are like half a dozen tabs - "characters", "locations", "factions" ... all kinds of data under them.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on September 26, 2007, 09:10:59 pm
Cool.

Just discovered that troop hiring costs and wages are now completely moddable. I can get rid of that horrible workaround for calculating extra wages. :)

BTW: You're in the credits, Ron

EDIT: Here's something weird. Compare this from Onin no Ran for M&B v.808:

Code: [Select]
('faction_strength',
[
(store_script_param_1,':faction'),
(try_begin),
(eq,':opt',0),
(assign,':num_cities',0),
(assign,':num_towns',0),
(assign,':num_villages',0),
(assign,':num_forts',0),
(assign,':num_parties',0),
(assign,':num_allies',0),
(assign,':faction_str',0),
(try_for_range,':city',cities_begin,cities_end), # count all cities allied to :faction
   (store_faction_of_party,':fac',':city'),
   (try_begin),
   (call_script,'script_faction_enemies',':faction',':fac'),
   (else_try),
   (val_add,':num_cities',1),
   (try_end),
(try_end),
(try_for_range,':town',towns_begin,towns_end), # count all towns allied to :faction
   (store_faction_of_party,':fac',':town'),
   (try_begin),
   (call_script,'script_faction_enemies',':faction',':fac'),
   (else_try),
   (val_add,':num_towns',1),
   (try_end),
(try_end),
(try_for_range,':village',villages_begin,villages_end), # count all villages allied to :faction
   (store_faction_of_party,':fac',':village'),
   (try_begin),
   (call_script,'script_faction_enemies',':faction',':fac'),
   (else_try),
   (val_add,':num_villages',1),
   (try_end),
(try_end),
(try_for_parties,':fort'), # count all forts belonging to :faction
   (party_get_template_id,':template',':fort'),
   (eq,':template','pt_fort'),
   (store_faction_of_party,':fac',':fort'),
   (try_begin),
   (call_script,'script_faction_enemies',':faction',':fac'),
   (else_try),
   (val_add,':num_forts',1),
   (try_end),
(try_end),
(try_for_parties,':party'), # count all parties belonging to or allied to :faction
   (store_faction_of_party,':fac',':party'),
   (try_begin),
   (call_script,'script_faction_enemies',':faction',':fac'),
   (else_try),
   (val_add,':num_parties',1),
   (try_end),
(try_end),
(try_for_range,':fac','fac_hosokawa','fac_end_fac'), # count all allies of :faction
   (try_begin),
   (call_script,'script_faction_enemies',':faction',':fac'),
   (else_try),
   (val_add,':num_allies',1),
   (try_end),
(try_end),
# values: allies are worth 100, cities 50, towns 25, villages 10, forts 15, parties 2
# sum all
(val_mul,':num_allies',100),
(val_mul,':num_cities',50),
(val_mul,':num_towns',25),
(val_mul,':num_villages',10),
(val_mul,':num_forts',15),
(val_mul,':num_parties',2),
(store_add,':sum',':num_allies',':num_cities'),
(val_add,':sum',':num_towns'),
(val_add,':sum',':num_villages'),
(val_add,':sum',':num_forts'),
(val_add,':sum',':num_parties'),
# normalization formula: score = 1000 + (raw-avg)*1000/avg, avg = (raw+1000)/2
(store_add,':avg',':sum',1000),
(val_div,':avg',2),
(store_add,':diff',':sum',':avg'),
(val_mul,':diff',1000),
(val_div,':diff',':avg'),
(store_add,':score',1000,':diff'),
(faction_set_slot,':faction',slot_faction_strength,':score'),
(str_store_faction_name,21,':faction'),
(assign,reg21,':score'),
(display_message,'str_fac_str'),
(try_end),
]
),

with this from Native M&B v.891
Code: [Select]
("faction_recalculate_strength",
   [
      (store_script_param_1, ":faction_no"),
      (assign, ":num_armies", 0),
      (assign, ":num_castles", 0),
      (assign, ":num_towns", 0),
      (try_for_range, ":troop_no", kingdom_heroes_begin, kingdom_heroes_end),
        (store_troop_faction, ":hero_faction_no", ":troop_no"),
        (eq, ":hero_faction_no", ":faction_no"),
        (troop_get_slot, ":hero_party", ":troop_no", slot_troop_leaded_party),
        (ge, ":hero_party", 0),
        (call_script, "script_party_count_fit_regulars", ":hero_party"),
        (assign, ":party_size", reg0),
        (call_script, "script_party_get_ideal_size", "$pout_party"),
        (assign, ":ideal_size", reg0),
        (val_mul, ":ideal_size", 60),
        (val_div, ":ideal_size", 100),
        (gt, ":party_size", ":ideal_size"),
        (val_add, ":num_armies", 1),
      (try_end),

      (try_for_range, ":center_no", centers_begin, centers_end),
        (store_faction_of_party, ":center_faction", ":center_no"),
        (eq, ":center_faction", ":faction_no"),
        (try_begin),
          (party_slot_eq, ":center_no", slot_party_type, spt_castle),
          (val_add, ":num_castles", 1),
        (else_try),
          (party_slot_eq, ":center_no", slot_party_type, spt_town),
          (val_add, ":num_towns", 1),
        (try_end),
      (try_end),

      (faction_set_slot, ":faction_no", slot_faction_num_armies, ":num_armies"),
      (faction_set_slot, ":faction_no", slot_faction_num_castles, ":num_castles"),
      (faction_set_slot, ":faction_no", slot_faction_num_towns, ":num_towns"),

    ]),

I suppose great minds think alike :) Or my code got ganked  :lol: Either way, it's freaking cool
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 26, 2007, 09:43:16 pm
I can't read any of that.  "As for my part, it was Greek to me" ... except that if it was Classical or Koine Greek, I could probably read more of it that I can Python code.

I didn't notice many names on this board who weren't in the credits.  I wish somebody would have asked for my advice on the utterly screwed up Native combat balance, however ... I could have set a few things straight.

On that note, I hope to have a version of RCM-Native for .891 ready for testing and feedback soon (hopefully today).  It should give us the test data we need to adapt ONR's RCM to .891 as smoothly as possible.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on September 30, 2007, 02:19:12 pm
Is it possible to attach sashimono to the armor of units?  I think it would be very neat if you could, considering the different towns/villages are ruled by different families.  If that isn't possible, would it be possible to retexture some armor to display the mon on the front of the armor?

I'm not sure if that would be historical for this period, but it would be a neat little feature.  I'd be willing to find all the crests/mons that I could if that would be possible.  I'm trying to press myself to become a decent modeler but I'm having difficulties making complex items.

Also, I'm going to try that RCM if it works for .892
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on September 30, 2007, 04:39:23 pm
There was already an extensive discussion on using sashimono, it was decided that its just a LITTLE to early for them to be in use.  Some people DID use them, but they werent common until the NEXT big war which I cant remember the name of just now.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 30, 2007, 06:16:06 pm
Yeah, confirm that ... sashimono first appeared a good deal later than our time frame.

The RCM for Native, effective version alpha3, does work with .892 ... actually, there are no changes to the item file between .89x versions, and the only change to the module.ini is the little line at the bottom about what is compatible.

Post comments on that in one of the various RCM threads, so I'll be sure to find them ASAP.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on September 30, 2007, 07:27:09 pm
Alright, I'll post on the RCM after I play around with it (which I'll do after posting this).

- Did the samurai of this period have any type of crest or specific colors that they'd wear to signify them from different families?  It can be somewhat bland if the armies of the Yamana weari red and the Hosokawa wear purple with no other differences.  I wish I could model and texture very well, as there are a lot of armor/clothes I'd love to make.

- Now, before I forget, there is one question I really want to ask.  Is it possible to create a more historical samurai hair-style?  Some of the hairstyles that are left over from native look awfully silly (the one with the two dreadlocks coming down the front comes to mind) and a lot of the characters have red/light brown hair, which also looks silly for Japanese samurai.  Maybe if there were a bunch of Captain John Blackthorne's and Captain Algren's that'd make sense : :P.

I understand/guess that the pirates or another random NPCs are auto-generated by the engine itself, and I'm not sure if you can set parameters so the values can't exceed certain amounts or that certain hairstyles/colors can't be used

- Also, since now since .890 they've used named characters for computer-controlled parties, do you plan on using this system?  If you do, I'd be willing to at least try to find historical vassals.

- One more thing, if you need help writing the in-game wiki, I can try to contribute in any way needed.  I kinda bailed on you guys last time instead of just admitting I was unable to do what I said I would try/do, and perhaps I can try to help in a way I'm capable of until I can model/texture/code.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 30, 2007, 08:14:18 pm
I can get some of that.

Specific crests and other identifying symbols were worn on the helmet.  Eventually, more unique helmet designs are in the works - but they're about item number 632 on the to-do list.  I do want to do a helmet with deer antlers, eventually - the horse with antlers just came out too cool.  However, right now I'm covered up with getting the RCM to convert right, and Fujiwara is trying to get the rest of the code to convert, and custom graphics are a really low priority compared to those.

It seems that .89x has some (relatively) easy code to limit skin tones and hair color.  Hopefully we can get that to work.

Samurai hairstyles are another thing on the to-do list.  Have been for a long time.  Problem is, it's murder to get hair looking right in this game.  It's beyond my skills, to be sure.

As for historical names, you won't find them.  The records just don't exist.  The best you will be able to do is come up with names that sound about right... and unless you speak clean Japanese, well...

But more named/hero-type characters are in the works - both recruit-able and otherwise.  Another of those things that's like number 789 on the to-do list.  Fujiwara got a few of them in the last release, but personally, I've been tied up with RCM conversion to .89x, and I haven't even seen most of them yet.

Hope that got most of the questions.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on September 30, 2007, 08:48:55 pm
Yes, you answered my questions pretty well.  Is there anything that you need researched that I could possibly try to accomplish (can't guarantee anything)?  I know you are short on staff, with it being just you and fujiwara doing the work.

- It appears it will be difficult to find information on the Onin war (the Onin Ki comes to mind), because most of the detailed accounts are in Japanese, and the best English book (review-wise) is $80.00, not remotely feasible for a casual history buff.

- Do you plan on adding more major factions to the mix in the future?  I read that the ikko-ikki started their own revolt during this time, lead by Togashi Masachika until 1488.  I also read about the Hatakeyama clan splitting up with two members feuding with each other (Yoshinori and Masanaga).  However, I also read that neither of the members really engaged in combat because the Hosokawa and Yamana warned them that whoever struck first would be declared a rebel, which would be a blow to both honor and alliances.  Also, did the Ashikaga Shogunate have any power at all during the Onin War?  It seems like Ashikaga Yoshimasa just sat in the palace and let the war go on around him.  I understand that these are also not number one priorities, like the hair and unique equipment.

- A nitpick about the engine:  Is it possible to make it so helmets don't give everyone bald heads?  It looks awfully silly when a samurai with long hair puts on a kabuto, and automatically he has no hair other than facial.

- I can try to help you guys out if you need anything researched. I have an enormous amount of free time since I'm out of highschool, and I'm trying to learn to model/texture.  I wouldn't hold my breath on that though ;)

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 30, 2007, 09:34:15 pm
Let's see ...

It's not quite as bad as just Fujiwara and myself "doing the work" ... there are a LOT of people on this board who drop in to help from time to time.  Most of them are helping intermittently with several projects ... but so am I, so that is pretty much par for the course.  Of course, I teach university, so I have a LOT more free time than most people... makes me a little more visible on the forum than the bulk of my actual contributions.  (I'm not a programmer, and my modeling/texturing is rather limited to certain types of objects - combat damage statistics and game balance are my only real applicable talents.)

As far as "research", fair to decent historians are easy enough to find right now.  Both Fujiwara and myself are at least decently up-to-speed on the period, he a little better than I.  If you see something that feels out of place, look it up and put it out here, and we'll put our heads together and make a call on it.  Other than that, the only currently standing research project is trying to find road maps of Japan in this period, so we can update the map.  That's in another thread.

As for more "factions" or "sub-factions", the way the game engine draws them ... we'll have to wait and see what Fujiwara learns about the new code capabilities in .89x, and figure out how they can be applied.  A lot of mods are looking at this issue - it's even more serious for Mesoamerica and Holy War.

As for the actual internal politics between clans and such, more is planned on that when the quest/storyline stuff for the kuge classes are worked out.  That's also on the to-do list... probably a little higher than those other things, although we can't really do it right until we get a proper model for wild boar.  (Kuge would get together, hunt boar, and then make their treaties/business deals.  It was like golf today.)

And on the hair, .89x finally supports both helmets and hair at the same time.  It will probably be buggy at first, and may require some helmets be redesigned and/or some helmets may still take away hair for a while.  However, it's a start ... we'll see how it goes.

The Onin War broke out when the old shogun (Ashikaga Yoshimasa)  resigned in 1464 and his only heir was a child.  Therefore, the only two clans in a position to name a new shogun were immediately at each other's throats.  He and clan Hosokawa supported his younger brother as the new Shogun, while his wife (no surprise there) and clan Yamana wanted his rather young son as the new Shogun.  So it wasn't that the shogun or the emperor ignored the war - naming a new shogun WAS the Onin War.

-----------------------------------------
Edit:
If you're just looking for something to do ...

Look up Banners_a.dds in the texture files for 0.892.  It contains the various faction banners you and other parties can get in Native.

Look up the seals and battle flags of all the major Japanese clans in the Kyoto area, plus any others that seem like they might be related.

Then put together a banners texture file (in the same sizes and the like as the original) of Japanese banners for map parties.

It's a minor research and texturing project, but it has to be done, and it's going to take several hours to make them really look right.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on September 30, 2007, 09:55:29 pm
Alright, I can bring what knowledge/information I have to the table.  However, I just want to know what you can/will use.  Would you want me to list the names of the important retainers of Yamana Souzen and Hosokawa Katsumoto?  Do you want to know what the two daimyo's mon looked like?  Siege weapons and castle structure?  This is what I've been reading about so far.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 30, 2007, 10:02:11 pm
oops ... posted same time as me.  See "edit" above.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 01, 2007, 12:02:55 am
http://img478.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hosokawatestmonry7.png (http://img478.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hosokawatestmonry7.png)

That is the mon that was used by Hosokawa Katsumoto (instead of the nine suns mon) and also used by the Hatakeyama and later by some other families such as the Imagawa.  What would you like me to change about this?

I used a custom cloth texture instead of the one used in native, mostly due to not being able to find the texture they use, and partly to it given extra authenticity.

Would you prefer the mon to be colored in a slight shade of the color the clans' armor?(historically they weren't, but unless the player knows which mon belongs to which family, they might choose a Hosokawa banner when they are from the Yamana, and vice versa)

Do you want the texture to be more visible?

EDIT:
- This is what it looks like at the Choose Banner Screen
http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mountchooseic5.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mountchooseic5.jpg)

The problem here is that the banner that my banner replaces is not rectangular as compared to some of the other flags that are.  Also, the shape of the mon is distorted due to how they display the banner/flag.


- This is what it looks like on the map.
http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mountmapko6.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mountmapko6.jpg)

The problem here is that first, the banner is rotated sideways so the crest/mon is rotated the wrong way, and it is in the wrong shape again.  Thankfully it's not distorted in the same way it is in the previous picture.

Does anyone know if it is possible to rotate the position of the flag yet?  So instead of it flying horizontally it can fly vertically?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 01, 2007, 12:46:52 am
Since it's a map icon, and not an actual unit flag on an armor, some color seems a good idea.  Let people see what's coming at a distance.  On the rest of that, use your imagination.  Put it into the game and see how it looks.  (Just create a native mini-mod for testing.)

For player banners, they don't even have to be 100% historical.  Variations on a theme are acceptable.  (I mean, you want to run a branch and some cherry flowers above and below the crest, go for it.)  The historically accurate ones will be necessary, but others are not a bad thing either.  We're only going to need a handful of historical ones, after all, which will leave five or six slots open for interpretation ... they can be stuff from totally different parts of Japan, or unique variants for the player.

Reality is, this is not an exact science.  We throw this stuff into the game and see how it looks.  If it looks bland, or corny, or you can't see the pattern, we change it then.  I mean, have at it.  Have some fun with it, if you can.  If and when you're happy with it, everybody else will probably like it too.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 01, 2007, 01:07:54 am
Not sure if I edited my post quickly enough for you to catch it, but do you know anything about if the banners can be rotated on the map?  The banners look a bit strange going sideways, as the mon looks totally different since I'm used to seeing it up-right, or is that a non-issue?  I was thinking of giving the Hosokawa a dark or light purple-hue, and for the Hatakeyama and Ôuchi banners, make one the other shade of purple and the other black.  For the Yamana, I would make their banner either dark/light crimson or red, along with the Hatakeyama (as the Hatakeyama family was split between the two) and the Isshiki family.  There are a few more that I know of around this period.

Ron, what do you think of the creases in the flag, do you think they should be more pronounced?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 01, 2007, 01:52:15 am
Some of the banners already turn one way and some the other.  I do not know what controls this, nor for sure exactly which ones turn which direction... I suppose there are different models for each, and some code in the menu options for which one uses which model.  Cheap solution is to check which ones go which way, and then trade that flag texture for one that goes the other way.  We can actually figure out which model goes where later, if you can't process Python code enough to make the changes yourself.  (Fujiwara is good at running down stuff like that.)

Again, as for creases in the flag ... this is not an exact science.  Make a backup copy of everything, do a test run with heavier or lighter creases, and see if it gets better or worse.  There is no way to really guess until you see both.  Start with relatively large, noticeable changes, and work it down to where you like it.

I mean, really - mess with it.  Learn what you can about how these things work.  If you get it all figured out, you can be the banner and standards guy for all the major mods on this board.  (Not sure what TLD has planned, but I know Holy War and Mesoamerica are both going to need some creative banner art as well.  Others will likely follow.)

You're already putting way more energy and thought into this than I had actually planned, were I doing these.  I was going to throw something together in a couple of hours, cut and paste the whole set from who-knows-what, and mail it to Fujiwara under the "this will do until we can get better ones" clause.

I mean, quit asking for permission and just do it.  Deal with it the way I handle stuff - tell people "give me a couple of days and I'll have something for you".  Mess with it until you're happy with the outcome.  If you can't figure out how to get the banners turned the right direction, post something under the discussions thread ... get some more minds working on it.  Everybody here will work with you, if they know or can figure it out.  (It's beyond my abilities ... but there are some sharp programmers around here who can find that kind of stuff in a hurry.)  You know - take over, deal with it. 
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on October 01, 2007, 07:36:39 am
Kasemacher:

On the banners, what you see in game is really two things: an image plane to display the banners in the banner selection presentation, and a vertex animated banner mesh that gets attached to the player icon and is textured with the same texture as the image plane. If you're gung ho about doing the banners, have a look at the hosokawa_banner model in BRFEdit and make a simplified version in Wings and texture it. Vertex animation is relatively easy, as you only need maybe five frames and the engine does the rest. My thought on this was to have the bottom unattched corner flap back and forth slightly, but you may have other ideas as well.

As Ron said, feel free to just jump, make something, and then present it. Chances are, we'll go with it, since everything in this mod is always being improved.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Fisheye on October 01, 2007, 07:37:59 am
All the flags in map_flags.brf are sideways. I imagine the orientation will be bugfixed but that pennant is the wrong shape for Japan anyway.

You want to look at the flags in map_flags_b.brf (long) and map_flags_c.brf (square).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 01, 2007, 03:14:47 pm
Fisheye: Is it possible to remove map_flags.brf and replace it with the square or rectangular banners from map_flags_b.brf and map_flags_c.brf?

Also, where are these flags used in the game?  Are they used in the castles and/or cities?

fujiwara:  I could not find the hosokawa_banner file in my Onin no Ran folder.

Ron Losey:  I don't mean to be annoying when I ask for your approval/direction.  I just want it to be as good as I can make it in respects to the mod.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Fisheye on October 01, 2007, 03:35:05 pm
Fisheye: Is it possible to remove map_flags.brf and replace it with the square or rectangular banners from map_flags_b.brf and map_flags_c.brf?

No, that will not have the desired effect.

The only way to get those particular designs flying vertically is to re-map one of the b or c flags in a modelling program, like how Fuji described.

For now I think changing the banners.dds just for those flags in _b and _c should suffice, right? I mean how many gazillion flags are you going to have... I can't even believe you found the hosokawa mon, that's great work ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 01, 2007, 04:15:15 pm
Would it even be difficult to remodel the flags in banners.dds into rectangles?  I can't imagine it being too complex.  Also, is it possible to just remove the pennant shape banners from even appearing on the "Choose Banner" screen?

I tried to export the pennant shaped banner/flag map_01 from BRF Edit to Wings3D as well as exporting the rectanglular shaped banner map_03, deleting the map_01 object, and saving it as map_01.obj, then importing map_01.obj into BRF edit.

The only problem is that it no longer has an animation.  I am not an animator, and a terrible modeller.  I can change the rectangular banners like I did for the Hosokawa mon, and leave the pennant-shaped banners alone, but that will look odd.

I also noticed while looking through map_flags_a/b/c.brf, none of the meshes are from the first page of banners.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 01, 2007, 06:30:34 pm
Hey, the black eagle flag (third from left, top row of the opening "Choose a banner" menu, I believe)  hangs down more like a Japanese crest.  Just figure out what they did on that, and copy it.

You'll likely have to create a new .brf file with the banners for the mod, and then modify the banner script (have no idea where that is, but I would start looking in module_game_menus.py) to pick up the new file.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 01, 2007, 07:47:51 pm
Okay, I opened up banners.brf and it shows all the banners you can choose from in the game, and their shapes.  Now, if I were to take the rectangular model and substitute it for the pennant shape ones, would that work, do you think?  That way I could make all the banners rectangular and not have to avoid the pennant shape ones.

I also was not able to find module_game_menus.py, do you happen to know where I can find it?  I searched the entire Mount & Blade folder for it and I didn't get any hits.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 01, 2007, 07:52:04 pm
Okay, I opened up banners.brf and it shows all the banners you can choose from in the game, and their shapes.  Now, if I were to take the rectangular model and substitute it for the pennant shape ones, would that work, do you think?  That way I could make all the banners rectangular and not have to avoid the pennant shape ones.

I also was not able to find module_game_menus.py, do you happen to know where I can find it?  I searched the entire Mount & Blade folder for it and I didn't get any hits.

Module_game_menus.py would be part of the "module system" ... the Python source code.  You do have a copy of the module system, don't you?  Know how it works?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 01, 2007, 08:50:51 pm
Eek, no, I don't have the source code.  Do you know where I could get it?

However, I have some good and bad news with the banners.  I'm sure you can tell what is wrong with both of them yourself, but I'll narrate anyway.

http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mountblade2007100122291rl9.png (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mountblade2007100122291rl9.png)
- I've managed to replace the pennant that was in the top left with one of mine so that it is rectangular.  I did this by importing banner_a07 into Wings3D, then saving it as banner_a01.obj, and importing it into BRFEdit.  When I imported it, I had to Replace Selected Mesh->Modify Base Mesh.  That worked for the most part, except the bottom left and top right of the flag was a bit distorted.  Not sure if that is because of shaders or whatnot.

The other problem is that part of the crest ended up in the roll at the top of the banners.  I think this is because the crests are at the top of the banner.  It didn't do it when it was in the middle of the banner which is probably why all the Native banners crests are in the middle of their banners.


http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mountblade2007100122302sj1.png (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mountblade2007100122302sj1.png)
- I used the banner you referred to test the black & white banner, and it mostly worked.The flag is flying the way I want it to, however the text is cut-off at the bottom.  I guess I will just have to raise the text so it doesn't clip the last character.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 01, 2007, 09:01:36 pm
Yeah, your textures didn't quite fit the model.  Have to shuffle things around until it does.

You can get the source code over on the Taleworlds board.  It's posted ... I forgot the link, but it didn't take long to look it up when I pulled my copy.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Fisheye on October 01, 2007, 09:25:17 pm
I'd lose the lettering on the flags. It takes away from the elegance of the mon design.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 01, 2007, 09:36:21 pm
I'd lose the lettering on the flags. It takes away from the elegance of the mon design.

Well, it was a common practice of the period.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Fisheye on October 01, 2007, 10:07:02 pm
I've never seen anything like that; every single sashimono I've seen just has the mon on it... but I'm no expert.

I'm not 100% sure, but... the banner seems to say "(Mr) Hosokawa" underneath the Hosokawa family mon.

I can buy a company commander having flags with just his name on it (without mon), but this, well, kindof seems like having "ENGLAND" splashed in huge lettering underneath a union jack.

Anyway, I'll let Fuji make the call :)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 02, 2007, 01:25:19 am
The thing is, the Hatakeyama, Hosokawa, and Imagawa clan all share the same mon (rice bowl and chopsticks).  The text signifies which family it is representing, plus it makes the banner look less bland.

The text says "Hosokawa-shi" on the white and black one and "Hatakeyama-shi" on the purple and white one.  "Shi" means clan or family.  I will make more varied ones, but I want all the major families to have a banner which has their name and mon on it.  I could try and have the banners have sayings such as "Katsumoto promises death to the Yamana dogs" or something to that effect if I can find out how to properly say that in Japanese. 

The problem with making historically accurate banners is that they were not documented as well during the Onin War as they were during the Sengoku Jidai.

If it is requested, I could have it have the respective daimyo's name on the banner instead of the mon and clan name.  It will just be difficult for people who can't read kanji to know which banner represents which families.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 02, 2007, 01:56:51 am
Both the history and the look are good on those, as soon as you get the text to fit on the banner.

Now it's just a question of aesthetics ... is this the look we want?
And as Fisheye pointed out ("England!"), we'll let Fujiwara make that call. 

I really don't have that much of an opinion, as that's why I suggested somebody else take care of it.  Looks like I picked the right guy, as he's clearly put a LOT more into this than I would have expected.  I would have only about half-done the thing, myself.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 02, 2007, 06:51:11 am
Well, until fujiwara posts with his opinion, I'll just start on some of the miscellaneous banners that are do not have the kana Fisheye hates so much (:P)

EDIT:  Here are 5 that I have done.  I have to paste urls, because when I use the img tags, the pictures don't show up.  These are mostly historical, but I've either have added borders, changed colors around, mirror-images, etc. to give them some life instead of countless black-on-white banners.

http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=takedaakili7.png (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=takedaakili7.png)
- The Takeda of Wakasa banner, I used purple since they sided with the Hosokawa, and the red color is often associated with the Takeda of Kai, specifically Takeda Harunobu/Shingen.

http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ouchimoneh5.png (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ouchimoneh5.png)
- A banner with a prayer to Hachiman, the Shinto god of war with the Ōuchi clan crest below it.  Ōuchi Masahiro was the most noted general under Hosokawa, he had ~20,000 soldiers under his command.

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kasugadaimyojinql3.png (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kasugadaimyojinql3.png)
- This is a banner with the inscription "Kasuga Daimyōjin", a kami of the Kasuga shrine in Nara.  According to Turnbull, it was a popular choice for a religious motif.

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hachiman2vu4.png (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hachiman2vu4.png)
- Another banner dedicated to Hachiman.  Interestingly, Hachiman is sometimes represented with Two Doves as "Ha" which is why you see them on the top.

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amakomonhm3.png (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amakomonhm3.png)
- A banner with the mon of the Amako clan on the top and bottom, this was a family that fought with the Ōuchi.  I might change this one to be red and white, to show that they were (somewhat) on the Yamana side.



I was thinking, maybe for the "Choose Banner" menu, you could either create a new page, or change the text to indicate, for example:
Page 1 - Yamana Banners
Page 2 - Hosokawa Banners
Page 3 - Miscellaneous Banners

I plan on doing some Buddhist banners if someone wants to play as a monk, or if the ikko-ikki ever become a faction like the Hosokawa and Yamana (which I think would be a great addition, :P)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 02, 2007, 10:47:12 am
I'm just bumping this so you know I've edited it since I posted the reply 4 hours ago.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Honnou on October 02, 2007, 03:47:15 pm
Weren't the Takeda from the South of Japan (Aki and such) a separate clan from the Kai Takeda?  Or were they the same clan?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 02, 2007, 06:11:12 pm
Quote from: Wikipedia
Takeda Nobutake (+ 1362) was the last Takeda shugo (governor) of the three provinces of Kai, Aki and Wakasa. His elder son Nobunari received Kai and the younger Ujinobu received Aki and Wakasa provinces.

From the Muromachi period until the Sengoku period, the Takeda of Aki ruled both Aki and Wakasa provinces, were supporters of the Ashikaga against the Southern Dynasty, and sided with the Hosokawa clan during the Ōnin war.

Their principal fortress was Kanayama castle, built on the top of the 411 meters of Mount Takeda; a castle built by Takeda Nobumune in the late Kamakura Period, near the present city of Hiroshima.

However, clashes with Mōri Motonari of Aki between 1516 and 1523 led to the clan's downfall. The principal line came to an end with the death of Takeda Nobuzane in 1555.

During the Tokugawa period, the Harada and the Yamaguchi families, samurai of the Asano clan (daimyo of Hiroshima), descended from the Takeda of Aki. According to the Yamaguchi family, the three most imortant strongholds that belonged to the Takeda of Aki were Kanayama castle (seen above), Kitsune castle and Ato castle (all in Aki province).

So, the Takeda of Aki, Wakasa and Kai's common ancestor is Takeda Nobutake.  I am pretty sure they all used the same crest/mon.

EDIT:  I found this in module_presentations.py

Code: [Select]
("banner_selection",0,mesh_load_window,[
      (ti_on_presentation_load,
       [(set_fixed_point_multiplier, 1000),
        (str_store_string, s1, "str_banner_selection_text"),
        (create_text_overlay, reg1, s1, tf_center_justify),
        (position_set_x, pos1, 500),
        (position_set_y, pos1, 600),
        (overlay_set_position, reg1, pos1),
        (create_button_overlay, "$g_presentation_obj_1", "@Next Page", tf_center_justify),
        (position_set_x, pos1, 500),
        (position_set_y, pos1, 50),
        (overlay_set_position, "$g_presentation_obj_1", pos1),

        (assign, ":x_pos", 150),
        (assign, ":y_pos", 575),
        (assign, ":try_end", "mesh_banner_c21"),
        (store_mul, ":begin_mesh", 16, "$g_presentation_page_no"),
        (val_add, ":begin_mesh", "mesh_banner_a01"),
        (store_add, ":try_end_2", ":begin_mesh", 16),
        (val_min, ":try_end", ":try_end_2"),
        (store_add, "$g_presentation_banner_start", "$g_presentation_obj_1", 1),
        (try_for_range, ":cur_banner_mesh", ":begin_mesh", ":try_end"),
          (create_image_button_overlay, reg1, ":cur_banner_mesh", ":cur_banner_mesh"),
          (position_set_x, pos1, ":x_pos"),
          (position_set_y, pos1, ":y_pos"),
          (overlay_set_position, reg1, pos1),
          (position_set_x, pos1, 100),
          (position_set_y, pos1, 100),
          (overlay_set_size, reg1, pos1),
          (val_add, ":x_pos", 100),
          (ge, ":x_pos", 900),
          (assign, ":x_pos", 150),
          (val_sub, ":y_pos", 250),
        (try_end),
        (presentation_set_duration, 999999),
        ]),
      (ti_on_presentation_event_state_change,
       [(store_trigger_param_1, ":object"),
        (try_begin),
          (eq, ":object", "$g_presentation_obj_1"),
          (val_add, "$g_presentation_page_no", 1),
          (val_mod, "$g_presentation_page_no", 4),
          (start_presentation, "prsnt_banner_selection"),
        (else_try),
          (store_sub, ":selected_banner", ":object", "$g_presentation_banner_start"),
          (store_mul, ":page_adder", 16, "$g_presentation_page_no"),
          (val_add, ":selected_banner", ":page_adder"),
          (val_add, ":selected_banner", "icon_banner_01"),
          (party_set_banner_icon, "p_main_party", ":selected_banner"),
          (store_sub, ":selected_banner_spr", ":selected_banner", "icon_banner_01"),
          (val_add, ":selected_banner_spr", "spr_banner_a"),
          (troop_set_slot, "trp_player", slot_troop_banner_scene_prop, ":selected_banner_spr"),
          (presentation_set_duration, 0),
          (assign, ":end_cond", kingdom_heroes_end),
          (try_for_range, ":cur_troop", kingdom_heroes_begin, ":end_cond"),
            (troop_slot_eq, ":cur_troop", slot_troop_banner_scene_prop, ":selected_banner_spr"),
            (assign, ":troop_to_change", ":cur_troop"),
            (assign, ":end_cond", 0),
            (troop_set_slot, ":cur_troop", slot_troop_banner_scene_prop, "spr_banner_cu"),
            (troop_get_slot, ":cur_party", ":cur_troop", slot_troop_leaded_party),
            (gt, ":cur_party", 0),
            (party_set_banner_icon, ":cur_party", "icon_banner_63"),
          (try_end),
          (try_for_parties, ":cur_party"),
            (party_slot_eq, ":cur_party", slot_town_lord, ":troop_to_change"),
            (party_set_banner_icon, ":cur_party", "icon_banner_63"),
          (try_end),
        (try_end),
        ]),
      (ti_on_presentation_run,
       [(try_begin),
          (this_or_next|key_clicked, key_space),
          (this_or_next|key_clicked, key_enter),
          (this_or_next|key_clicked, key_escape),
          (key_clicked, key_back_space),
          (presentation_set_duration, 0),
        (try_end),

        ]),
      ]),

I am not sure how this affects the banners, since I can't code, and I don't really understand what they're talking about.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on October 02, 2007, 10:11:12 pm
I have several comments:

1) Kasemacher, you've done some good work so far. Keep it up.

2) The mon you give here may have been Katsumoto's personal mon, but the Hosokawa clan mon was always been the nine suns mon. We can certainly have, and SHOULD have, a personal standard for Katsumoto, but for banners representing generic Hosokawa faction troops, the nine suns mon should be used

3) I like the color scheme you gave earlier, but it may be best to leave the kanji off. It could only be seen by the players at close range, and makes unnecessary work for you. Start simple first, make that perfect, then add more detail if needed.

4) I would urge you to give modeling a try. It wasn't too terribly long that I was in your position, a complete modeling n00b. You can see the results of what I've taught myself: all the buildings in Onin no Ran were modeled and textured by me. There are several good tutorials out there, and a Japanese banner is not a difficult model to make. However, they do have a distinctive shape, and it's widely known that Onin no Ran strives for historical accuracy whenever and wherever possible. The best way to start is to look at pictures of banners, lots of pictures, and get an idea of the shapes involved in one, then recreate those shapes in Wings. If it looks like you have put forth some effort, you will find a great number of people on this board who are willing to help. :)

5) The code you posted is the code to generate the GUI for the banner selection screen. I have been through it, and have some ideas on how to modify it for our purposes
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 02, 2007, 10:36:56 pm
Yeah, Fujiwara has a real good point.  Give modeling a try - put together your own banners and such.

Only a couple of months ago, I knew zilch about modeling or texturing.  Taught myself, off of the tutorials and such around here.  The swords with the historical temper lines and the cutouts in the tsuba, the armored horse, and the new helmets for generals ... those are mine.  Also the new obsidian axes for the next version of Mesoamerica, and some fantasy stuff I've been working up in the last couple of days.  Modeling is easy to pick up ... I went from knowing zero to being pretty good in maybe a week.

Sure, a lot of the guys around here are better than me ... but that doesn't hurt me.  It's handy to be able to throw something together when you need it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 02, 2007, 10:48:48 pm
- This is from Osprey Publishing's Samurai Heraldry book, by Stephen Turnbull.
http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chopstickandricebowlwz9.png (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chopstickandricebowlwz9.png)

I understand his work is not gospel, but I can't imagine anyone making a big error like this.  It says it was used by the Ashikaga, and I've found that the Hatakeyama used both the "two chopsticks and rice bowl" (which I used) and the "two discs" design.  What I believe happened is that Hoskawa Katsumoto adopted it, and then the Hatakeyama adopted it when they supported Hosokawa during the Onin War, and the two clans then used different emblems during the Sengoku Period.  I wouldn't have a big problem changing it, as that is extremely easy.

- The Kanji is very easy to add on, I have a kanji handwritten script font that I can apply to banners.  I just think it looks far less bland, and therefore more appetizing for a player to choose.

- I've thought about doing the modeling, but I'm getting frustrated with Wings3D's camera since I'm rather new to 3D-graphics editing.  I have been trying to follow High_Elf's video tutorials so that I can be a greater asset, but a lot of the things he does is done with shortcuts, so he goes really fast.  You're right on the Japanese banners, they should be easy. 

After I get more experience as a modeller, I might try some of the 3D banners that were extensively used.  Right now the models from native don't work so well because it seems to take a snapshot of a certain part of the flag, rotate it, and put it in the roll.  Looks messy.  I'm just trying to get the textures done for the flags so you guys don't think I ran off again. :P

- Ron, it's encouraging to know that you learned to model fairly quickly.  I just wanted to ask you both a question.  Do you have any plans to change the horse models, or at least the more expensive ones (coursers come to mind)?  I have seen several pictures of samurai on horses that appear to have some lacy-material on the horse.  It's aesthetically pleasing.  Here's an illustration I found (superb work done by evalerio in the Samurai Archives forum)  (http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k145/evalerio0160/SPEARHEAD2.jpg)

Again, I understand this isn't a top priority.  But if I can learn to model, I'll try to make these things I keep asking about, and perhaps give a go at creating hair.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 02, 2007, 11:03:39 pm
I just got the armored horses in a little bit ago, with the last version.  Haven't really thought about decorating the others.  Some most certainly did have all kinds of colorful stuff on the tack and just strung about for looks.

Actually modeling a horse is a pain right now, for technical reasons.  (BRFEdit doesn't support the new skeletons.  We're waiting on the next version.  Some of the guys can rig horses manually and/or debug the format changes by hex editing, but that is NOT EASY.)  However, adding some decorations to the saddle purely by retexture shouldn't be too hard, if anybody wants to mess with it.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 05, 2007, 08:09:27 am
I read this from the Samurai Archives Forum

Quote from: Tatsunoshi
In reality (based on contemporary documents and 'muster lists'), they were overwhelmingly comprised of 'the middle class'-townspeople, artisans, and merchants, sprinkled with some samurai families. What few 'farmers' there were in ikki were usually the leaders of the farming communities, such as village headmen. Again, aside from a few specialized academics, this isn't generally known.

and

Quote from: ltdomer
One last thing--"Sohei" and "Ikko Ikki" are not the same thing at all. "Sohei" specifically refers to what I stated above, warriors hired by temples to provide security, and who took on "priestly" life, at least outwardly. When using the word "Sohei", generally you're referring to the armies of several temples around Kyoto, specifically the Enryakuji on Mount Hiei, the Negoroji down on Mt. Koya, Miidera (a sub-temple of the Enryakuji, but one that often fought with its parent temple) on Lake Biwa, some of the temples in Nara, and so forth. Most of these are either Tendai or Shingon sect temples. There may have been temples that employed Sohei outside of the Kyoto area, but for obvious reasons these are the ones always mentioned in the war chronicles, being as all the political intrigue, etc. was centered in Kyoto.

Other sects may or may not have employed Sohei, but I'm not sure. I don't recall ever hearing about a Zen temple that had a Sohei army.

"New" sects (Nichiren, Jodo, and Jodo Shin Shuu are all considered "new" sects compared to the older Zen, Tendai, and Shingon sects) were all popular movement sects with their base in the peasant and town populations, rather than the samurai and noble class that favored Zen, Shingon, and Tendai. Jodo and Jodo Shin Shuu in particular appealed to the peasantry (Nichiren was popular among merchants), so most of their manpower was derived from the farming class. Therefore, really the Ikko ikki was an army of religious, militant peasants, and not monks. The religious leadership (Kennyo Kosa, head of the Ishiyama Honganji and the Jodo Shin Shuu sect while fighting Nobunaga, for example) were priests and wore priestly vestments, etc., but you don't ever see images of Ikko ikki soldiers in white headcowling like Sohei; shaved heads was about as far as they went, at least in all the images I've seen. Anyways, the point is that when you see the word "Sohei", it refers to one thing, and "Ikko ikki" refers to something different.

So first off, does this mean if you keep the quest for the Ikko-ikki revolts, that you'll have to change all the characters?  If I remember correctly, the Ikko-ikki revolts in Onin no Ran involve sohei and farmers (if they're peasants, then ignore me).  However, according to the posters in the Samurai Archives forums, (two of the more senior and respected members too) the Ikko-ikki were comprised neither of sohei nor peasants.  Apparently they were comprised more-so of artisans, merchants, and ji-samurai (lesser samurai families)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 05, 2007, 08:36:21 am
You might be confusing general terms for specific here.  "Sohei" is a general term for warrior monks - any samurai who joined a temple, be they retired older warriors or whatever.  Some temples deliberately maintained virtual armies of them, others just had the few wanderers or retirees who decided to join their order.  A related term is "yamabushi" - members of temple orders who set out on a journey to find their destiny.

The Ikko-ikki were a rebel political movement trying to set up a religion-based government.  Realistically speaking, they attracted all kinds ... anybody fed up with the current system.  Priests and sohei often led them (since their objectives were a religion-based government), but often as not, just about anybody could have found their way into such a movement.

The temples that sided with/organized the Ikko-ikki were generally not the same temples that maintained large forces of sohei warriors for use in political disturbances that were not really their business.  In fact, that sort of practice (religion getting mired down in politics) was one of the things that fueled the Ikko-ikki rebellion to begin with.

Do the terms make more sense now?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 05, 2007, 09:24:53 am
Well, according to ltdomer, the big difference between sohei was that the Ikko-ikki targeted the middleclass townspeople, while the sohei were warriors hired to protect a temple and lived a priestly life.  It also seems that unlike the Jodo and Jodo Shin Shuu which made up the Ikko-ikki targeted a difference audience than that of the Tendai, Zen and Shigon sects. 

In that same thread ltdomer posted on, they say its the English sources that are the reason for the confusion of the subject.  Some sources indicate that Sohei were warrior-monks. Others stated that the Ikko Ikki were a collection of monks, peasants, priests and so forth.  However, they are not on in the same.

He, ltdomer, also said that Ikko-ikki did not wear the head-cowling that the sohei did, but usually just shaved their heads.  If this were another forum I was sourcing, I wouldn't really put too much faith in it, but most of the veterans of the forums are academics (like Anthony Bryant) who study this for a living, or did during school.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on October 05, 2007, 12:06:00 pm
I'm inclined to leave the Ikko-ikki party composition alone for this reason: whatever the actual members of an ikki were beforehand, they still have to pick up arms and armor if they expected to engage in combat with more organized forces. The outward appearance (aside from the shaved heads, which can be adjusted) was similar to that of the sohei, even if they weren't really sohei. The engine isn't designed, and I certainly wouldn't want to approach it if it were, to examine the motivations of AI agents, so for purposes of combat I'm going to leave them be. However, we can add this to the online dictionary :D

Also I'm curious about this:
Quote
Jodo and Jodo Shin Shuu in particular appealed to the peasantry (Nichiren was popular among merchants), so most of their manpower was derived from the farming class. Therefore, really the Ikko ikki was an army of religious, militant peasants, and not monks.

This seems to suggest that the Ikko-ikki did comprise mostly of peasant farmers. Peasants and farmers are one and the same in this context (think later to the Tokugawa 'reforms', where this gets rigidly codified).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 05, 2007, 12:21:30 pm
Well, I'm not sure if that is a true statement.  Jodo Shin Shuu and Jodo targeted the peasantry, but not all Jodo and Jodo Shin Shuu followers were Ikko-ikki, although all Ikko-ikki are (Jodo/Jodo Shin Shuu).  It's confusing, and I really wouldn't mind keeping it the same.  I just wanted to throw it out there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on October 05, 2007, 07:58:11 pm
Kasemacher and the people from the Samurai Archives Forums are correct, sohei and ikko-ikki are completely different things, sohei never joined up with the ikko-ikki because they hated them for not following true buddhist doctrine.
The sohei and their "zasu" (head abbot) were loaded with money because they owned a lot of toll barriers around kyoto, they had a good life and owned such expensive armors as the haramaki-do, or do-maru (aswell as a yumi, tachi, and naginata ofcourse).
The ikko-ikki however, started out recruiting people by telling them there were easy ways of getting into nirvana (something like that), this is ofcourse very popular among the poor and oppressed city folk, so they formed what would become the ikko-ikki.
The sohei knew that there was no easy way to enlightenment, and they were never oppressed, the sohei have been oppressors themselves, hence their nickname: akuso (evil monk(s).
I'm not even gonna get into the yamabushi, they are completely different and have absolutely nothing to do with sohei or the ikko ikki.

So it would be a good thing if the ikko ikki faction does not include people dressed like sohei (the cowl and armor that are typical for sohei).
In fact, it should be possible for the Enryaku-ji faction to fight the ikko-ikki.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 05, 2007, 09:13:46 pm
I know the older sects such as Tendai, Shigon, and Zen disliked the power the Jodo and Jodo Shin Shuu sects were gaining.  There was at least one time that the monks of Enryaku-ji burned down the temples of Rennyo Shonin, the most influential priest of the Jodo Shin Shuu sect.

Honestly, if the Ikko-ikki troop tree is the same, I won't mind.  Like I said, I just wanted to throw it out there and let fujiwara make a call on it.  He has his hands full as it is. :P

If he decides to do it and doesn't make it into the initial port to .89x, I'm sure it'll get done sometime.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on October 06, 2007, 02:43:57 am
Aren't you guys straining a little much at a definition?  I mean, it is statistical certainty that some of the temples involved in the Ikko-ikki rebellion did in fact have membership from the bushi (therefore "sohei" - warroir monks).  It is logical certainty that any such warriors they had were most certainly put out front in the role of officers for their rabble of an army.  Did the temples in question have an army of such warriors?  If they did, they would have taken over Japan.  However, some warrior-monks among the ikko-ikki seems logically unavoidable.  Maybe they did and maybe they did not wear the traditional garb of the Sohei from the more politically attached and less rebellious orders - but the term sohei still applies to them, in the generic sense.

BTW, anyone wanting to understand the ikko-ikki rebellion should just watch what happened in Burma this last week.  (It got my attention ... that's too close to home, where I am.)  I mean, 700 year old documents are good, but when you can watch it happening live on the news....

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on October 06, 2007, 09:32:32 am
We make a good number of concessions for game play in the name of historical accuracy, but here is a situation where we can't. The Ikko-Ikki have to have experienced troops to fight against, otherwise they wouldn't be a credible threat against even a low-level player. The troop tree will stay.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on October 06, 2007, 04:25:19 pm
Fair enough, and perfectly understandable ::)



Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 28, 2007, 08:22:06 am
I was thinking about this earlier, what about having Yabusame events?

From Wikipedia:

Yabusame - ritual mounted archery

Yabusame was designed as a way to please and entertain the myriad of gods that watch over Japan, thus encouraging their blessings for the prosperity of the land, the people, and the harvest.

A yabusame archer gallops down a 255-meter-long track at high speed. The archer mainly controls his horse with his knees, as he needs both hands to draw and shoot his bow.

As he approaches a target, he brings his bow up and draws the arrow past his ear before letting the arrow fly with a deep shout of In-Yo-In-Yo (darkness and light). The arrow is blunt and round-shaped in order to make a louder sound when it strikes the board.

Experienced archers are allowed to used arrows with a V-shaped prong. If the board is struck, it will splinter with a confetti-like material and fall to the ground. To hit all three targets is considered an admirable accomplishment. Yabusame targets and their placement are designed to ritually replicate the optimum target for a lethal blow on an opponent wearing full traditional samurai armor (O-Yoroi) which left the space just beneath the helmet visor bare

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1a/Horse8-vi.jpg)


I've been trying to think of how such a competition would work in M&B. 

1.) Make the HP for the destructable targets 1.
2.) Force the player to use the yumi and ceremonial garb.
3.) Set a timer (is that even possible?) so that the player can't slowly approach the targets to ensure accuracy.  You would need it to be long enough for the slower horses to complete the course but not too long that will let the player slow down to easier complete the shots.

Would it be possible for AI to do this?  I don't think the AI is intelligent enough to complete a course like this and hit the targets, at least not yet.  They'd probably try to approach them with their fists.


EDIT:  Is there a dojo in any of the cities (Obama?) that the Takeda control?  I think it would be a good idea to have a dojo there that focused on horse archery.  The Takeda Kyuubadou is the most renowned and mentioned school of Kyuubajutsu (horse archery skills)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on October 30, 2007, 11:08:55 am
I like the idea of adding Yabusame to the game, just like i like the hunting idea :)
I hope it can be done, it sounds difficult to get this to work in-game.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on October 30, 2007, 12:07:13 pm
Both the hunting and the yabusame would be great to be added, but that's going to be icing for sure.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on October 30, 2007, 01:40:02 pm
Definitely not a priority, but I figured I'd submit the suggestion before I forgot about it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Fisheye on October 30, 2007, 03:26:41 pm
Omigod, that's a smashing photo. Worthy of any gallery.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 02, 2007, 09:19:41 pm
I was reading about Asakura's House Code, and I stumbled upon something interesting

- Post intelligence agents (metsuke) in both near and distant provinces, even if the world may be at peace. In so doing you can spy on the conditions of these domains without interruption.

- Do not excessively covet swords and daggers made by famous masters. Even if you own a sword or dagger worth 10,000 pieces (hiki, equivalent of 10 mon), it can be overcome by 100 spears each worth 100 pieces. Therefore, use the 10,000 pieces to procure 100 spears, and arm 100 men with them. You can in this manner defend yourself in time of war. (1)

- Those retainers who lack special talent or positions, but who are steadfast must be treated with compassion and understanding. Those who are effeminate may still be used as attendants or messengers if their demeanor is outstanding, and they must not be dismissed lightly. However, if they lack both [steadfastness and good deportment], then it is useless to retain them.

- Regrettable is the practice of selecting an auspicious day or considering a lucky direction in order to win a battle or take a castle, and even shift the time and date accordingly. No matter how auspicious the day may be, if you set sail your boat in a storm or confront a great host alone, your effort will come to naught. No matter how inauspicious the day may be, if you can discern between truth and falsehood, prepare for the orthodox and surprise attacks secretly, be flexible in all situations, and depend on a good stratagem, then your victory is assured.

- Do not permit any castle other than that of the Asakura to be built in this province. Move all high-ranking retainers without exception to Ichijo-ga-tani (the Asakura castle). Permit their deputies (Daikan) and lower officials (gesu or shitazukasa) to remain in their districts and villages [to manage their estates] (2).


1 - This would suggest that in 1480, a very well made sword would be worth 10,000 hiki/1,000 mon and a basic yari would be 100 hiki/10 mon.  Would that be at all helpful for weapon prices?  I'm not sure if it is enough to go off of alone though.

2 - I note this passage to bring up a question about castles:  Are we going to include very many castles in OnR?  I know historically most of the fighting was done in Kyoto, but currently we don't have a decent way to portray that accurately on M&B.  I could find a list of castles during the Onin period.  Also, if it would interest you, I could post some pictures of Kyoto during OnR (it mostly shows where they made their camps)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 02, 2007, 10:45:48 pm
You did the conversion backwards ... hiki being worth 10 mon, so the sword was worth 10,000 hiki = 100,000 mon.  Yari at 100 hiki = 1000 mon.

To be honest, those must have been some pretty lousy yari they were talking about.  (That would be in the spirit of what was being said.)  General consensus is that a well-made yari blade was probably nearly as expensive as swords of similar quality.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 02, 2007, 11:26:32 pm
Oops, you're right.  I got the conversion backwards. I think that, at least for the spears, the amounts were given just for effect.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 02, 2007, 11:31:39 pm
Oops, you're right.  I got the conversion backwards. I think that, at least for the spears, the amounts were given just for effect.

Well, yeah, that would be in the spirit of what was being said ... just like "a good tanto is no match for 50 ice picks, sharpened screwdrivers and letter openers."  Debating the quality of the screwdrivers in question would sort of miss the point.

I was just commenting on that before anybody decided to change the prices on the spears.  Ours might be a little high, relative to the swords, but not by that much.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Fisheye on November 03, 2007, 08:05:57 pm
I could find a list of castles during the Onin period. 

Could you? With like descriptions and pictures and stuff? I 've only ever seen Sengoku Jidai castles.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Karmapolice on November 03, 2007, 11:19:13 pm
Did this armor already exist in the Onin war? Can you make that one?

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4336/250pxsamuraimj0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 04, 2007, 12:59:12 am
Did this armor already exist in the Onin war? Can you make that one?


The steel on the breastplate in this picture looks late-period.  Also, the armored apron over the upper legs looks later period than the Onin War.  (Onin War was still using mostly longer side-skirts instead.)  The arm guards are pretty typical ... we now have some rather similar to that in-game (my models ... it wasn't easy, I'll tell you).  The helmet in that picture is also pretty typical, and there is one model in the game that looks almost exactly like that (available in three color schemes).  Well, maybe not "almost exactly" - it was another one of my modifications, and is a little more fancy on the earguards.... I couldn't help myself, I have a flair for the dramatic.

The jinbaori - the decorative over-shirt - was normally not worn into combat.  There was some discussion about adding them, but it was pretty much dropped pending a time when it could be made to hang loosely and flap in the wind properly.

Still, it's a cool picture.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on November 04, 2007, 03:14:21 pm
That picture was taken almost 400 years after the Onin War ended.  I've seen it several times, usually it was taken some time between 1853 and 1855.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 06, 2007, 11:25:28 am
I could find a list of castles during the Onin period. 

Could you? With like descriptions and pictures and stuff? I 've only ever seen Sengoku Jidai castles.


Well, I would assume that the castles were very similar to the majority of the castles used in the 16th century.  A lot of the castles have been burnt down and restored in a fashion that would not be accurate of the Onin period.  A good example of this is Himeji Castle.  It was used during the Onin War, but it would have not looked as decorative as Toyotomi Hideyoshi made it when it was restored.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on November 06, 2007, 12:43:40 pm
AFAIK, the only castle in our operational theater was Himeji Castle. It was a functional castle, so I'd like to make it part of the mod, but am unsure how to do so.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 06, 2007, 08:09:57 pm
Himeji Castle was originally called Himeyama Castle before it was burnt down.

Here is a painting of the layout of the castle grounds of Himeji.  It gives a good idea to the terrain and surroundings of the castle.  This would be one hell of a scene to map out if someone were to do it, the polycounts would be phenomenal, and the AI couldn't cope.  Especially if each side only has around 100 troops.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Old_painting_of_Himeji_castle.jpg)



The Takeda of Aki's principal fortress was Kanayama castle, built on the top of the 411 meters of Mount Takeda; a castle built by Takeda Nobumune in the late Kamakura Period, near the present city of Hiroshima.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 06, 2007, 10:50:24 pm
You would think the poly count would kill a supercomputer ... but some of the Native towns and castles are not much lighter than that.  If poly counts are kept as low as possible on most buildings - which should not be a problem on the buildings that do not have access to the interior - it shouldn't be much worse than some of the default cities.

Should be doable, if somebody has both the skills and the patience to do it.  (I have neither.)

Problem is, to adequately model a fight there, you're not talking about 100 troops on each side ... you're talking more like 5000.  Even with massive LOD work to keep count on most troops down to like 100 polys total per man, that's still a lot for a computer to do.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 06, 2007, 11:05:42 pm
You would never see a castle like that in the Onin jidai, such castles are from the late sengoku jidai...  :(
And Ron is right about the armor, it's late period.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 06, 2007, 11:18:43 pm
Yeah, well, you wouldn't have to be a great expert on Japanese armor to know that the solid contoured breastplate was late-period.

It is interesting to note how little Japanese helmet designs changed in 500 years.  The body armor is generally quite identifiable (even by total amateurs), but the helmets are almost impossible to date with any certainty.

Oh well, that was not really a useful topic ...

Back to the point, can anybody find a sketch or blueprint of a castle from the correct period?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on November 06, 2007, 11:55:12 pm
It is interesting to note how little Japanese helmet designs changed in 500 years.  The body armor is generally quite identifiable (even by total amateurs), but the helmets are almost impossible to date with any certainty.

I have to disagree. As you move from the Heian era forward, helmets become less hemispherical and more head-shaped (slightly wider in back than in front). The zunari-hachi kabuto (lit. 'head-shaped' made of three plates shaped like a US Army pot helmet) didn't appear before the Sengoku. The popular style during the Onin War was the suji-bachi kabuto, consisting of several dozen wedge shaped and ribbed plates riveted together to form the bowl. Kasa-jikoro (umbrella shaped shikoro) or the classic angled down and back shikoro were the general rule. It's like Japanese armor: you look at enough, and you get a good idea of what came from when.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 07, 2007, 12:04:26 am
It is interesting to note how little Japanese helmet designs changed in 500 years.  The body armor is generally quite identifiable (even by total amateurs), but the helmets are almost impossible to date with any certainty.

I have to disagree. As you move from the Heian era forward, helmets become less hemispherical and more head-shaped (slightly wider in back than in front). The zunari-hachi kabuto (lit. 'head-shaped' made of three plates shaped like a US Army pot helmet) didn't appear before the Sengoku. The popular style during the Onin War was the suji-bachi kabuto, consisting of several dozen wedge shaped and ribbed plates riveted together to form the bowl. Kasa-jikoro (umbrella shaped shikoro) or the classic angled down and back shikoro were the general rule. It's like Japanese armor: you look at enough, and you get a good idea of what came from when.

But you've got to nearly take the bloody thing apart to figure that out.  It's not often visible in a sketch, and sometimes not even in a photo.  That's a pretty small change, all considered.  Compare to the transition from Roman and Viking helmets to the great helm used in the Crusades, for a similar time period ... in other places the changes were noticeable even in a crude sketch.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 07, 2007, 12:05:49 am
I tried to find some castle designs with Google, but all i got was late period castles and tourist info ::)
Anyway, they look much simpler then the late period castles, like there is no huge multi story castle.
Some castles are carved from large hills with flat tops... imagine a round shaped hill with a flat top, the flat top will have a wooden fence or a simple wall around it, there may be a villa and some simple buildings within those fences/walls.
Those type of castles are carved from low mountains or high hills and may have some levels, so the enemy would have to get into the lower part fist, and work their way up.


And about the Japanese helmets that have changed little, that depends on the type of helmet you're talking about, the multi plate helmet bowl design has changed little in 1400 years or more, their design changes are very obvious though, i can tell if a tell if a helmet is very old or not, it's not that difficult (getting a very specific date for helmets can be difficult).
It should be said that a lot of the older helmet bowls have been refitted with newer neck guards, so don't judge a helmet's age by the shape and style of it's neck guard.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 07, 2007, 12:22:48 am
I didn't say I couldn't tell the helmets apart ... just commenting that the degree of visible change has been much less than what you see on other kinds of armor or on helmets from other places.  Dramatically less.  In 500 years, the lack of any changes that an average 6-year-old would immediately notice is highly uncommon in the world.

I think everybody is generally aware of the basic concept of a fort on a hill.  Thing is, to model them, somebody is going to need a clearer picture than that.  I couldn't find any either.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 07, 2007, 12:37:53 am
Just so everyone knows, I wasn't trying to pass off that drawing as a historically accurate depiction of an Onin period castle.  I just thought it was an interesting picture and would also show the landscape that the Himeyama Castle was on.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on November 07, 2007, 10:22:16 am
On castles (or perhaps we should say, period fortifications):  Do we know what battles involved the taking or defense of a fortified position?  Finding depictions or descriptions of those battles might be the best way to go about piecing together what the "castles" actually looked like.  Searching for Ashikaga shogunate-era castles in and of itself isn't likely to turn up much. ;)

That said, a few days ago I ordered a few books on and about the Onin War and "medieval" Japan (including Turnbull's book on Japanese warfare, 1467-1550 or so).  Once I get the books and have time to read them through, I'll post anything relevant.  Who knows, I may slap together a few polygons for the heck of it too -- I love Japanese architecture :)

(On that note, though unrelated to ONR entirely: if you're ever in Kyoto, visiting Nijou Castle is an absolute must.  Seeing and hearing the famous "nightingale floors" in action is a real trip, and most of the castle is spectacularly preserved.  It was one of the top highlights of my trip a few years ago!)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 07, 2007, 10:56:50 am
Here is what I was told on the samurai-archives forums.

"There were dozens of castles in this area during the Onin War. They would have all been considered forts 100 years later-you didn't see the large rock bases, tenshu, or plastered walls that were featured in castles during the late sengoku. Short version-castles during the Onin war would be built mainly of wood, with stockades, fences, and rudimentary gates, sometimes with ditches or moats dug around them. The complexes were much smaller than late Sengoku ones as well. They would have some basic buildings but nothing like a keep. They were usually located on top of a mountain, or along a series of mountain ridges-plains castles didn't come along until later. Turnbull's Japanese Castle Osprey book has a few nice illustrations of what you would expect to see."
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 07, 2007, 11:05:10 am
I have that Osprey book :P
And the Samurai-archives forums people describe the castles very well.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on November 07, 2007, 11:06:14 pm
I have that Osprey book :P

Well then post the pics, man!
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 08, 2007, 04:38:40 pm
I have the book as well, but the castles it depicts are focused on 1540-1640
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 08, 2007, 09:41:43 pm
Yeah, but there is one picture of an old style Japanese castle in that book, so i'll post it ;)

(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa185/Kodama187/OldstyleJapanesecastle.jpg)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 08, 2007, 10:36:44 pm
What kind of a temple-complex-looking thing was that supposed to be?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sheogorath on November 08, 2007, 10:54:08 pm
Looks like fantasy to me.  Flattening the tops of mountain ranges is more of a Chinese thing.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 08, 2007, 11:11:28 pm
Looks like fantasy to me.  Flattening the tops of mountain ranges is more of a Chinese thing.

Well, building on tops of mountains like that is pretty common anywhere ... Chinese, Anglo-Saxon, Inca, Zulu, whoever.  Buddhist temples are seemingly nearly always placed on high points that way, and many ancient military structures used the same theme.

My question was because of the layout - several mountain tops have buildings, with little connection between them.  Then there are all kinds of terraces and earthwork bridges that don't really look like common construction methods anywhere.  (Even the Inca didn't get that wild.)  There's little or no space for housing (civilian or military), storage, trade ... anything you would need to keep a town functioning.  Even getting water up there could be an issue, unless their water was supplied by some natural springs that don't show in the picture.... there is no water supply within the walled area.

Anything that crazy-looking would have to be purely monumental.  A temple complex or something.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Fisheye on November 09, 2007, 10:00:26 am
Nice diagram. I think it's a mashup designed to showcase several different approaches to constructing early fortifications using a single diagram.

Basically the overall message is that they're just forts, simple walled encampments, with relatively low walls. Not the Sengoku era style of massively fortified castles.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on November 09, 2007, 10:38:47 am
I dunno, I have to agree with Ron on this one.  Earth cannot be stably sculpted in the forms shown here, even turfed over.  I don't recall seeing that pic in "Medieval Warfare" either in my initial thumb-through, but I've been focusing on the other book for now.  I DO recall seeing several black and white prints of later castles, and thinking, "Oh, bummer, too late for ONR." ;)  Maybe tonight I'll see if I can find the relevant text in the book, but if someone wants to toss page numbers my way, there's no harm in that.

I wonder if the discussion of fortifications merits being split off into its own thread?  Like ships it's a research project unto itself.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 09, 2007, 11:38:23 am
It's Shikizan-jo, the defenses shown here are historically accurate for old style Japanese castles.
You can see some more pictures of similar castles here:  http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?=&p=14490 (http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?=&p=14490)
They also show some photos of the ditches and flat hill tops (how they look today).
Note that these castles are from the middle of the Sengoku jidai, but it's what you would see in the Onin jidai as well.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on November 09, 2007, 12:37:47 pm
There's a world of difference between the drawing and the photos of the ruined fortifications, even accounting for erosion and natural "in-fill."  From the photos it looks like the earthworks were a few feet tall at best -- short enough that with some effort someone who fell in could get out unassisted, but probably not while being actively un-assisted with projectiles and pointy objects.  In the drawing, the earthworks appear to be several storeys high!  :shock:

Thanks for the link, though, that's a helpful thread :)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 09, 2007, 02:44:27 pm
The photos are from other castles, I could not find photos of the castle depicted in the Osprey book, so I can't really judge if the ditches were ever as deep as shown in that picture, but I also doubt they were that deep.
However, they should be deep enough to keep people in the ditches.
But hey, it's just an illustration, you can't expect Osprey books to be 100% accurate... at least you can see how old style castles were designed and that's the whole point of the picture.

Yeah, the thread i linked to has some good information about old style castles, such info is difficult to find :)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 09, 2007, 03:15:56 pm
Ichimonji, I looked at the book, and it said on page 10 (the picture is on page 11)

OPPOSITE  Shikizan castle, 1550

This plate shows Shikizan castle, which was owned by Matsunaga Hisahide.  He died here following the siege by Oda Nobunaga in 1577, after which the site was abandoned.  Shikizan shows the culmination of the sengoku yamashiro style. common before the widespread use of stone-clad bases.  A roughly concentric series of mountain peaks have been converted into a number of natural inner and outer baileys by carving up the mountain. 

Each layer overlooks the one below it, utilizing not only the tops of the hills but different intermediate levels also to create interlocking fields of fire.  The result is a series of sculpted earth bastions.  Ditches have been strengthened by having vertical cross pieces built through them at right angles to the inner walls, and near perpendicular sections are made more dramatic by having long channels cut out of them, down which rocks could be rolled. 

Mountain streams have been diverted into gullies to create moats, and entrances to gateways are offset to allow an enemy's approach to be covered completely.  Walls have been built using a form of wattle and daub construction plastered with a mixture of red clay and crushed rock.  Arrow ports were cut at regular intervals.  Outbuildings and towers are simple structures.

Here's a picture of the article about the castles in Turnbull's book

(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5073/sengokuyamashirogo1.jpg)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 09, 2007, 03:45:09 pm
Yeah Kasemacher, i know what it said in the book.
I know it's a mid Sengoku jidai castle, but it's pre stone base, unlike most other castle pictures i could find, but it's pretty much how Onin jidai castles would be like.
I have seen yamashiro with some stone base structures on the top level of the fort, so the text is wrong about saying that it's the "culmination of the sengoku yamashiro style", but hey, the book's author is Turnbull :P
If anyone can find a good photo of an Onin jidai fort that has not been altered in any way after the Onin jidai, please post it (until then, the pre stone base castles of the mid Sengoku jidai will have to do as an example of how the Onin jidai castles would have been like).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 09, 2007, 03:47:32 pm
I just thought you believed it to be a picture of an Onin-period castle, that's why I put that :P.


I don't think many of the castles from the Onin Period would be preserved in their original pre-Sengoku Jidai state.  Emperor Meiji ordered most of the castles to be destroyed after the Meiji Restoration, and nearly all of the other castles were damaged by American bombs in World War II.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 09, 2007, 03:58:18 pm
I just thought you believed it to be a picture of an Onin-period castle, that's why I put that :P.

Yeah i know, no worries, you did the right thing.

I don't think many of the castles from the Onin Period would be preserved in their original pre-Sengoku Jidai state.  Emperor Meiji ordered most of the castles to be destroyed after the Meiji Restoration, and nearly all of the other castles were damaged by American bombs in World War II.

It's so sad, but Japan has been rebuilding many castles for tourism, some are made the traditional way, many are made of concrete... what were they thinking!? :(
Unfortunately i don't think anyone will ever find and post a good picture of an original Onin jidai castle.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Honnou on November 09, 2007, 04:17:20 pm
IF there are any Onin era forts left, I guarantee they're in total ruins, lost in some forest or on some mountain where noone's been, all rotted to hell (600's a long time for wood...) and overgrown.  Even if there ARE Onin forts left, it'll probably be a long time before they're found.

What's worse is, we really can't be sure what an Onin fort would have looked like.  Similar to swords, the style-of-the-times changed alot and castles got rebuild, or just razed right to the ground.  I'd put my money on looking like an Edo castle's grounds, minus the larger buildings and later style, so mostly a walled off area of barracks, storage, etc, probably with a self-sustaining town near or withing the walls for the families of samurai and for drafting nearby peasants.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 09, 2007, 05:49:29 pm
Yeah, well, once again ...

Like the boats, this isn't a research project.  We just need to get things close enough to be convincing.  Not necessarily close enough for archaeologists to just quit digging and start using ONR as reference material.

Question is, do we have enough data for somebody to convincingly model these forts?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 09, 2007, 06:52:34 pm
Like the boats, this isn't a research project.  We just need to get things close enough to be convincing.  Not necessarily close enough for archaeologists to just quit digging and start using ONR as reference material.

LOL :lol:

Question is, do we have enough data for somebody to convincingly model these forts?

I think so.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 09, 2007, 08:21:48 pm
Here are some castles I have found:

Shirahata Castle - Stronghold of the Akamatsu
http://www.town.kamigori.hyogo.jp/outline/youran/crossroad_rekishi.pdf (http://www.town.kamigori.hyogo.jp/outline/youran/crossroad_rekishi.pdf)

The undetailed layout of the castle is on page 7.

Myōken Castle
Takeda Castle - Built by Ohtagaki Mitsukage, retainer of Yamana Sozen.
(http://www.jcastle.info/images/takeda/takeda1.jpg?1194015441)

The castle is also known as torafusujou, which means the shape of the castle looks like a tiger sick in bed.

http://www.jcastle.info/castle/profile/11-Takeda-Castle (http://www.jcastle.info/castle/profile/11-Takeda-Castle)

That page has more pictures of the castle

Kanayama Castle - Castle built by Takeda Nobumune in the late Kamakura Period.  In possession of either Takeda Nobushige or Kuninobu.

Himeyama Castle - This is known today as Himeji Castle.  Wasn't as nearly ornate as it is today.



Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on November 10, 2007, 10:14:12 am
I'd say we have enough information for "an evocative movie set."  There are still some questions I'd want answered if I were actually tackling fortifications at this point though:


Otherwise I think someone with general familiarity with period architecture could fill in the rest.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Yoshitsune on November 10, 2007, 01:47:49 pm
There's a colour plate in Turnbull's book "Japanese Fortified Temples and Monasteries, AD 710-1602" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Japanese-Fortified-Monasteries-710-1062-Fortress/dp/184176826X) showing a representation of the Yoshizaki Gobo fortified temple of the 1470s.

It is reminiscent of descriptions of the mountain forts of the 14th Century "War Between the Two Courts" such as Akasaka, Chihaya and the original Shirahata referenced in  Kasemacher's post. Man-made walls/stockades, scattered buildings and wooden archery towers combine with natural features such as rocky outcrops, trees, earth banks and streams.  I think these would be features typical of many forts of the Onin War too.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 10, 2007, 02:06:35 pm
I'd say we have enough information for "an evocative movie set."  There are still some questions I'd want answered if I were actually tackling fortifications at this point though:


Height and thickness of the perimeter walls? (I think we've got enough to go on for general appearance thereof otherwise.)

I think this is a good example of the thickness of an earthen wall with no stone underneath.
(http://www.jcastle.info/images/resource/structure/hei4.jpg?1194015098)

And the height
(http://www.jcastle.info/images/resource/structure/hei6.jpg?1194015108)

Looks like it is about 7' or 8' high walls.  Sufficiently tall enough for the normal person back in the 15th century.

Quote from: Aethelwyn
Frequency and height of watchtowers?  Were they integrated into the perimeter or stand-alone buildings?

The Japanese used fortified storehouses/turrets called yagura, which comes from ya - arrow, kura - storehouse.  They had sumi yagura on the corners, which is where they were most of the time.  They could either be one story, two story, or three story.  The other type of yagura would be the tamon yagura, it was basically an enclosed part of the wall.

Sumi yagura
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Funai_Castle_02.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Funai_Castle_02.jpg)

Tamon yagura
(http://www.jcastle.info/images/resource/structure/yagurahimeji.jpg)
(http://www.jcastle.info/images/resource/structure/yaguramatsuyama2.jpg?1194015195)


Quote from: Aethelwyn
How tall and fancy did -- or didn't -- the main buildings get?  We know the main walls didn't have stone footings but did any of the buildings use them by the 1460's?

I'm not entire sure, but if any building would have, it would have been the donjon or tenshukaku.

(http://bb.ishiyasan.co.jp/doutyuki/siro21.jpg)




@Yoshitsune:  Thanks for reminding me!  I have that book too, and I was going to bring up the point of fortified monasteries/temples.   Here's the picture of the Yoshikazi Gobo

(http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/689/ikkoikkimonasteryty8.jpg)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Yoshitsune on November 10, 2007, 02:49:05 pm
Ah fantastic, Kasemacher, thanks for the picture of Yoshizaki Gobo!! Actually I came across the picture browsing in a bookshop but didn't end up buying as it seemed to mainly deal with the late Sengoku era (despite the title...) of which I have little interest. Assuming that plate is a reconstruction based on archaeological evidence I think it is very important reference for Onin period forts and buildings in general - not just temples.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 10, 2007, 03:07:52 pm
It says:


Yoshizaki Gobo, founded by Rennyo when he fled from the sohei (warrior monks) of Hieizan in 1471, was Japan's first permanently fortified temple. It was built to resist attacks by bows and arrows, fire and edged weapons, and is shown as it
would have appeared when it came under attack by Togashi Kochiyo in 1474.This reconstruction is based on a model on display in the Rennyo Kinenkan in Yoshizaki, which was constructed using details in a contemporary scroll painting in the possession of Yoshizakiji and information from archaeological investigation.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Yoshitsune on November 10, 2007, 04:13:55 pm
Glad to see a Stephen Turnbull  book with decent source citing in this case. About time and let's hope it becomes the norm.  :)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 10, 2007, 09:03:49 pm
The "tenshukaku" did not exist during the Onin jidai, I quote the Osprey book about castles: "Daimyo Matsunaga Hisahide is credited with the first tower keep at his castle of Tamon in 1567", that's about a century later then this mod is set in ;)
Same thing about the yagura, also Tamon 1567.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 10, 2007, 09:18:16 pm
I think I'll let Ichimonji handle this, he would know better what does and doesn't belong.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 10, 2007, 09:29:10 pm
Hey! It's not as if i know everything about Japanese castles, you were doing great :)

Anyway, about the watch towers (seiro), you can see them on the first castle picture i posted, there should be very few of them, these things look like they will be high poly models.
Buildings should not be fancy or tall.
Here is a picture that shows how thick the walls are.
(http://www.redsilver.com/images/ja_whitecastle.gif)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on November 10, 2007, 09:45:44 pm
The walls look like they are around 2 feet in width.  That is just eyeballing it, though
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 10, 2007, 09:47:10 pm
The walls look like they are around 2 feet in width.  That is just eyeballing it, though

Yeah, I think that's about right.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 10, 2007, 09:48:46 pm
I would say three foot at the base.  Walls usually look thinner than they are, just to eyeball them.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Yoshitsune on November 11, 2007, 11:48:47 am
Archery towers often seem to have formed part of a gatehouse, right from early samurai times, as these often formed the node of a battle:

(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3998/towerol8.jpg)

And a fortified country manor from the 14th Century:

(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/9092/yajimayakataec7.jpg)


This sort of tower was called a "yagura" - literally "arrow store". Paul Varley ("Warriors Of Japan") mentions how, in time of war extra wooden towers would be hastily erected around the perimeter stockade (Akasaka having "twenty to thirty")

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Karmapolice on November 23, 2007, 02:20:45 pm
Can you put back overhead swing and thrusting on horseback?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 23, 2007, 06:24:27 pm
Can you put back overhead swing and thrusting on horseback?

Guess we could, but it's generally very hard to use both.  You always seem to get the wrong one (or at least I do).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 23, 2007, 09:00:33 pm
Can you put back overhead swing and thrusting on horseback?

Why would anyone want to have the thrusting back? ???
Thrusting on horseback is just useless, I hope things will stay the way they are.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 23, 2007, 10:31:02 pm
Can you put back overhead swing and thrusting on horseback?

Why would anyone want to have the thrusting back? ???
Thrusting on horseback is just useless, I hope things will stay the way they are.

I thought so, when we disabled it.

There might be a slight case for this, should you end up with your horse turned toward an attacker ... a quick jab might be enough to at least break his attack.  However, the down side of always drawing your weapon back in the wrong position every time you want to make a more common slash in passing should be enough to make the feature highly unpopular.

The stab from horse with the longer spears was disabled because it would be impossible to do without falling off the horse.

Note that, in Native, thrust attacks on swords were pierce damage ... effectively meaning you could stab a sword through the side of a tank.  A lot of people got the impression that this was the normal and most effective attack from horse, based on a truly screwed-up damage model.  RCM mods do not suffer from this quirk - jabs with swords are set to cut damage, and armor has more realistic values.

There might be some historical case for holding the sword in front and using it as a couched lance attack.  This was occasionally done in a number of places.  (George Patton suggested U.S. Cav switch their curved sabers for straight swords, to make this attack easier ... but they gave up horses and went to tanks about then.)  However, this would need to be modeled very differently than the M&B thrust-from-horseback attack, and would require a LOT of work to implement properly.  Odds are the return does not justify the investment there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on November 24, 2007, 01:01:32 am
When mounted I find the overhead chop useful against mounted enemies parallel to me when stopped. Plus, I find stabbing an infantry guy in the face from horse fun, but overall, its no big loss.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Karmapolice on November 24, 2007, 01:13:56 am
Can you put back overhead swing and thrusting on horseback?

Why would anyone want to have the thrusting back? ???
Thrusting on horseback is just useless, I hope things will stay the way they are.

because I find it hard when an enemy is right in front of me and all I can do is swing left and right.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 24, 2007, 03:00:31 am
An enemy right in front of you will always be hard to attack, because a fair volume of your own horse is right in front of you.  Most swords will not really offer enough reach to reliably make an attack there anyway.

Again, problem is that it is very hard, as a player, to get your attack direction right in the middle of a fight.  The horses were slow enough in Native to be less of a problem, but with semi-realistic horse speeds, it can get quite complicated.

Question is, which one is more annoying?  Lack of stab/overhand hack, or always getting stab or overhand when you're trying to make a basic slash from horseback?  It's a close vote.  I left them in for RCM Native, Mesoamerica and Holy War, we pulled them for ONR ... I can't decide, personally.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 25, 2007, 11:57:41 am
I just downloaded and played the latest version of Native, the mounted combat really sucks, horses are just slightly faster then running soldiers and the pole arms on horseback are completely useless, the only attack I need/want is a slash with a long pole arm.
Stabbing while mounted with pole arms was useless for me, couching was acceptable, but slashing rules... OnR rules.
Ron, thanks for making your combat model, it's so much better then the Native combat model.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 25, 2007, 05:13:21 pm
I just downloaded and played the latest version of Native, the mounted combat really sucks, horses are just slightly faster then running soldiers and the pole arms on horseback are completely useless, the only attack I need/want is a slash with a long pole arm.
Stabbing while mounted with pole arms was useless for me, couching was acceptable, but slashing rules... OnR rules.
Ron, thanks for making your combat model, it's so much better then the Native combat model.

You're quite welcome ... but for comparison, do check out the RCM for Native.
http://rapidshare.com/files/67733275/RCM-Native_894_versionB.zip.html

It has the stab and overhand from horse with basic swords, the Native glitches like plate armor but nothing to dent it, and such, slashes from horse with glaives and such but not with simple European spears ... good for comparing certain elements. 
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on November 25, 2007, 05:57:37 pm
Great! :D
I will try it now, thanks again.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on November 25, 2007, 10:06:12 pm
Great! :D
I will try it now, thanks again.

Post any observations in one of the RCM threads.  The version for .89x is still probably not 100% debugged.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on November 27, 2007, 10:52:18 am
Question is, which one is more annoying?  Lack of stab/overhand hack, or always getting stab or overhand when you're trying to make a basic slash from horseback?  It's a close vote.  I left them in for RCM Native, Mesoamerica and Holy War, we pulled them for ONR ... I can't decide, personally.


I honestly don't have any problems making the attack I want, except for the occasional weird instance where my avatar mysteriously decides to switch from a right- to a left-slash (or vice versa) while I'm holding a weapon ready for a blow.  Of course, I use the mouse to control attack direction, not relative position to the enemy.  I think that's a far better play mode once you're used to it.

Sometimes all you need from horseback is a quick jab, after all.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Hellhound47 on December 06, 2007, 03:17:06 am
First - I don't want to be annoying, I tried to read many posts and try not to repeat, I admit that my wisdom about Japan before 1940 is non-existant (maybe little bit of the Onin War). I want to ask a few questions and post some ideas.
Missions - breakdown to 2 tiers:
high tier - from wealthy and big towns, cities - bandit hunt (large groups), "deliver" troops mission - just transfer *wanted* experienced troops ...etc
low tier - expanding/small villages and towns - bandit hunt (small, weak groups), deliver goods (very similiar to existing quest), protect the caravan (here's next idea - implementing caravans that would really trade goods) ...etc
special - military missions avaible only if joined faction (existant ones are too rare - i got one after about 10 days)

Faction wealth/strenght - a system that would give information and change factions, f.e taking down caravans would hurt income what would extend into lower troop quality, taking down troops would weaken faction numbers. Factions would be then represented by two characteristics - wealth and manpower
This would not have to be complicated, new spawned troops would be influenced in numbers and experience. Of course those chars. would regenerate.

Also towns are deserted, can't there be any people in them ?

The RCM is doing great and with new native AI, combat is much more intensive and challenging, but sieges and raids isn't it strongest points, what are you standings?
Do you plan sieges, or just sally out battles with no in-town fights?

These are some of my thoughts.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on December 06, 2007, 03:35:49 am
We're still working on the urban combat and fortification stuff.  No idea what we'll finally come up with.  Also true of the missions and overall war system.  A lot of ideas have been floating around, but Fujiwara hasn't really had time to implement too many of them yet.  (Still trying to get the fool thing ported to .901)

The discussions on ship combat and castles/urban settings were in other threads.  They were, as of yet, inconclusive ... we have to wait on the prototype versions and see how they work out.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on December 06, 2007, 09:38:55 pm
Any chance of stealth missions like in TLD? Take an elite group of shinobi and assassinate a lord in his war camp!

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on December 06, 2007, 10:56:05 pm
Any chance of stealth missions like in TLD? Take an elite group of shinobi and assassinate a lord in his war camp!



Yes
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on December 07, 2007, 09:25:08 pm
How many polys can there be in one scene without there being an immense slowdown?


(By the way, sorry the banners have taken so long fuji, someone deleted the folder for all of my ONR Banners and I just got them replaced, just finishing up the animations)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on December 08, 2007, 08:21:36 am
How many polys can there be in one scene without there being an immense slowdown?


(By the way, sorry the banners have taken so long fuji, someone deleted the folder for all of my ONR Banners and I just got them replaced, just finishing up the animations)

NP :) RL has kicked my arse this week as far as modding goes too (60 hrs a week at work sux).

I don't what the upper limit is for polys in a scene, but the most poly intensive scene so far (the city scene) runs at around 40 fps, so I think we're ok
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Hellhound47 on December 13, 2007, 02:59:23 am
One little thing - Loot listing script that sorts items from highest price. Don't remember where i saw it :/ , in one of those big mods i guess.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Feanaro on December 13, 2007, 04:32:19 pm
I just started playing the mod and I thought I would give my general impressions.

Atmosphere: pretty good. The weapons and armor are the best part. Why can you guys do a great looking set of full Japanese armor but I can't find a Sallet that doesn't look terrible? :P Music is fitting, though I don't listen to it(gets in the way of listening to heavy metal). The map is great. The towns are a little bit more of a problem. The buildings look good... but they all look the same and they rarely have many furnishing. The faces could use some work. I'm sure y'all know that and are working on it.

Combat: Pretty good, despite the number of archers(usually not a big fan of ranged combat). I like the balancing of the archers. They feel useful but without being too uber. BoW kinda annoys me with it's large number of Vaegir Master Archers. All the piercing weapons make for a pretty high casualty rate.

Armored troops are a pain in the beginning. Kyouza(or however it's spelled) for example. They take a while to kill, though that's not the real problem. My troops tend to knock the enemy away from themselves, which prevents proper mobbing. Instead of surrounding the little bugger and beating him senseless, they get in a few good whacks, knock him away, he fights one guy mano-e-mano, kills him, gets mobbed, knocked back, kills, etc. It makes some otherwise sound position rather bad ones. Fighting mountain bandits, I spawned near a river with a very steep bank. So I set my guys up on top of the bank, hoping to stall the cavalry on the slopes and shoot them to bits. This worked, until the enemy were unhorsed. Thanks to the cycle I mentioned, fifteen of my men were killed outright. The Kyouza would come up the slope, kill one, get knocked down, and then repeat the whole process. This is mostly apparent when you are trying to hold your position. I'm also feeling rather left out as far as loot goes. There's nothing I'd actually use.

More later.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on December 14, 2007, 04:35:08 pm
I just started playing the mod and I thought I would give my general impressions.

Atmosphere: pretty good. The weapons and armor are the best part. Why can you guys do a great looking set of full Japanese armor but I can't find a Sallet that doesn't look terrible? :P Music is fitting, though I don't listen to it(gets in the way of listening to heavy metal). The map is great. The towns are a little bit more of a problem. The buildings look good... but they all look the same and they rarely have many furnishing. The faces could use some work. I'm sure y'all know that and are working on it.

Why? We've had several talented modelers in the past working on this mod, and we spent a lot of time looking at reference pictures. Furnishing the buildings is like icing...it'll come last. Faces are a little more difficult, since we currently don't have anyone on the team with enough texturing skill to put those together. Stefano was working on something a long time ago, but I think they got lost in a HD explosion.

Quote
Combat: Pretty good, despite the number of archers(usually not a big fan of ranged combat). I like the balancing of the archers. They feel useful but without being too uber. BoW kinda annoys me with it's large number of Vaegir Master Archers. All the piercing weapons make for a pretty high casualty rate.

You're getting a feel for Japanese combat in particular, and Eastern combat in general. Did you see the movie Hero? All the crazy wuxia nonsense aside, the mass archer fire was typical for the general area and time. Plus, bushi prided themselves on their skill with a bow.

Quote
Armored troops are a pain in the beginning. Kyouza(or however it's spelled) for example. They take a while to kill, though that's not the real problem. My troops tend to knock the enemy away from themselves, which prevents proper mobbing. Instead of surrounding the little bugger and beating him senseless, they get in a few good whacks, knock him away, he fights one guy mano-e-mano, kills him, gets mobbed, knocked back, kills, etc. It makes some otherwise sound position rather bad ones. Fighting mountain bandits, I spawned near a river with a very steep bank. So I set my guys up on top of the bank, hoping to stall the cavalry on the slopes and shoot them to bits. This worked, until the enemy were unhorsed. Thanks to the cycle I mentioned, fifteen of my men were killed outright. The Kyouza would come up the slope, kill one, get knocked down, and then repeat the whole process. This is mostly apparent when you are trying to hold your position. I'm also feeling rather left out as far as loot goes. There's nothing I'd actually use.

More later.

You've pretty much got the jist of it. Armored troops are supposed to difficult to bring down. Ron can go into all the details of the RCM if you like, but their is a large gap between the unarmored (or barely armored) peasantry and the heavily armored bushi (or bushi-turned-bandits that are the kyozuko and sanzoku). I have also noticed that a party heavy on ashigaru will pwn river pirates and other light foot infanty, but pit them against the mountain bandits and they'll get mowed down. But, take a group of mixed ranged and infanty samurai against the same mountain bandits and the tables are turned. This is one of the points of the realism we strive for in this mod. As for loot, it's a high-priority item.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Feanaro on December 14, 2007, 06:17:17 pm
Why? We've had several talented modelers in the past working on this mod, and we spent a lot of time looking at reference pictures.

I didn't really need the reasons why, I was just complaining. :green: The sallet is currently the most voted for new helmet on Taleworlds but the only one I know of has several weird angles and is generally ugly as sin. There's a cleaned up version but it's got a huge griffin thing on top. Anyways...

Quote
Armored troops are supposed to difficult to bring down.

It's working. ;)

Quote
I have also noticed that a party heavy on ashigaru will pwn river pirates and other light foot infanty, but pit them against the mountain bandits and they'll get mowed down. But, take a group of mixed ranged and infanty samurai against the same mountain bandits and the tables are turned.

I've got an even split between ashigaru and samurai, plus a few light cavalry to tie up archers. I usually outnumber mountain bandit parties by about twenty men and I still have to work my tail off to avoid five or more casualties per battle. Guess I'll just have to dump the ashigaru for samurai.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on December 14, 2007, 07:14:00 pm
Casualties in combat are part of life.  Even the most skilled, most heavily armored, and generally toughest hero-types occasionally go down from a stray arrow or something.  In contrast, even the poorest fighters sometimes get lucky.  This is a factor that plagues modern SWAT teams (as they are not really designed around replacing casualties the way an army does), but that was missing from the Native game.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Feanaro on December 14, 2007, 07:30:13 pm
Casualties in combat are part of life... that was missing from the Native game.

I do find it very easy to get through many encounters in Native unscathed, which retards the challenge level. ONR is certainly more challenging but without making me pull hair.

The flip side is that while replacing troops is very easy for the AI(a new group just pops up), the player doesn't have that option. ONR doesn't have mercenaries like Native, at least not that I can see. I hope some kind of mechanism for recruiting higher level troops is present in later version.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on December 14, 2007, 07:41:47 pm
ONR doesn't have mercenaries like Native, at least not that I can see. I hope some kind of mechanism for recruiting higher level troops is present in later version.

You can hire troops in a tavern after you buy one or two drinks.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Feanaro on December 14, 2007, 07:45:45 pm
ONR doesn't have mercenaries like Native, at least not that I can see. I hope some kind of mechanism for recruiting higher level troops is present in later version.

You can hire troops in a tavern after you buy one or two drinks.

I wouldn't have gotten far in the game if I didn't know that. :P

Perhaps I should have been clearer. Watchmen, Hired Blades, etc can be hired from taverns in Native.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on December 14, 2007, 07:55:57 pm
I wouldn't have gotten far in the game if I didn't know that. :P

Why would you not get very far?  I ride into battle alone and I have no problem killing 40+ bandits of any type (I wish I could fight with real armies, but getting into a fight with them is a bit tricky).

Perhaps I should have been clearer. Watchmen, Hired Blades, etc can be hired from taverns in Native.

Yes you should have :P
You just don't recruit real warriors like samurai in a tavern, it's not historically correct you know ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Feanaro on December 14, 2007, 08:02:56 pm
Why would you not get very far?  I ride into battle alone and I have no problem killing 40+ bandits of any type (I wish I could fight with real armies, but getting into a fight with them is a bit tricky).

Your frail asian horses don't suit my reckless and ramshackle soloing style.

Quote
You just don't recruit real warriors like samurai in a tavern, it's not historically correct you know ;)

I didn't say it had to be a tavern. If you need historical authenticity, your mom's house is supposedly frequented by burly Japanese men. :P Seriously though, if some of the bushi are willing to go bandit style, why not come to work for me? Does bandity offer a dental plan? I didn't think so.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on December 14, 2007, 08:47:24 pm
Does bandity offer a dental plan?

No, but I understand the fringe bennies (free booze and women) are great...
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Feanaro on December 14, 2007, 09:30:59 pm
Does bandity offer a dental plan?

No, but I understand the fringe bennies (free booze and women) are great...

I've got camp "defenders" and free sake too. Must have some kinda bleedin' union.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on December 15, 2007, 12:35:23 am
It has been considered before that the neutral units be more upgradable.  Particularly since some of the provinces not affiliated with the major factions had their own rather substantial forces.

Another thing ... it would seem that captured bandits would be more willing to join you than to take their chances with the "legal system" (i.e. either being executed or used for slave labor), and certainly would consider it a better option than risking your guys just killing them because they were tired of dragging them around.  It should probably hurt morale among the more professional troops to have a bunch of filthy bandits joining them, but still...


Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Feanaro on December 15, 2007, 01:45:42 am
Another thing ... it would seem that captured bandits would be more willing to join you than to take their chances with the "legal system" (i.e. either being executed or used for slave labor), and certainly would consider it a better option than risking your guys just killing them because they were tired of dragging them around.  It should probably hurt morale among the more professional troops to have a bunch of filthy bandits joining them, but still...

Easy to incorporate too, since Native already has that.

Speaking of captured bandits, I found out just how valuable the mounted bandits are. At 1900-2400ish mon a pop to a slave dealer, they are quite a deal. But it's hard to knock 'em out! Most troops don't seem to have any viable blunt weapons. Are there any? If not, a "slave hunter" like line would be nice.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on December 15, 2007, 01:59:46 am
Aside from a few samurai who served as civilian police, and so carried jitte, Japan wasn't real big on blunt weapons or on the whole concept of non-lethal force in general.  If you really want to build a police-type force, you can arm your hero characters with jitte or bokken.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Feanaro on December 15, 2007, 04:27:01 pm
Aside from a few samurai who served as civilian police, and so carried jitte, Japan wasn't real big on blunt weapons or on the whole concept of non-lethal force in general.  If you really want to build a police-type force, you can arm your hero characters with jitte or bokken.

I just wanted to make some money. Well, if you want to do something right, you gotta beat the guys up yourself.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on January 17, 2008, 06:18:26 pm
Most groups on the map already have Japanese names, but the army patrols, scouts, and the large armies don't have their Japanese names yet.

In case no one knows any good Japanese names for them, I will suggest some.

Scout: Tsukai-ban, the tsukai-ban was a messenger/scout unit and should wear light armor and ride fast horses, their groups should number about 13 to 33 men.
Military patroll: Kumi, a kumi is a military unit and may include more then one type of warrior, the leader is a mounted samurai called: kumi-gashira.
What is called an "army" in-game, should be named: Ban, a ban consists of severall kumi with their kumi-gashira to lead them, the kumi-gashira are led by a ban-gashira with his personal retinue.
It would be cool if an army of over 300 men was added to the game, these should be led by a taisho and his bodyguards (uma-mawari), I think an army of over 300 men should have about 3 ban-gashira, and maybe 6 to 9 kumi-gashira.

Historically, the size of kumi and ban varied a lot, so the sizes of the units can simply be changed to whatever seems to work best for the game.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Feanaro on January 17, 2008, 09:17:39 pm
Great. More names I won't understand. Can't wait until you guys translate everything into Japanese. Howda spell "load" and "save" in Japanese?  :green:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 17, 2008, 09:29:30 pm
Great. More names I won't understand. Can't wait until you guys translate everything into Japanese. Howda spell "load" and "save" in Japanese?  :green:

I wondered about that, actually, when Fujiwara first started translating party names.  (In irony, I don't speak Japanese.)  However, you can get used to them.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on January 17, 2008, 09:52:18 pm
Can't wait until you guys translate everything into Japanese.

That's a great idea! :P

Personally, I have had no problem understanding the Japanese words, but I can see how most people would be clueless.
But the words should still be Japanese, it just wouldn't be right when something like a katana is called something like: Japanese long sword.
If all words were like that, the mod would suck beyond measure... it is a historical mod afterall.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 17, 2008, 10:23:22 pm
Weapons and equipment, specifically weapons and equipment that is unique to a particular culture, should most certainly retain its original title or a common variant thereof.  This is done to properly identify the item without the need for an extensive glossary to translate the game terms into accepted descriptions.  This is common procedure in English anyway, where names of Asiatic weapons and armors have mostly been imported intact (or with only the influence of a bad accent) from at least one of their original languages.  This prevents the item from being confused with its counterparts from other cultures.

However, use of Japanese to describe common items - "horse", "rice" - is excessive, considering that most of the target audience is English-speaking (at least somewhat), and relatively few of them are likely to be fluent in Japanese.

As for party names, does use of Japanese add to their description?  Or detract from it?  I mean, "scouting party" is pretty descriptive, and recognizable to speakers of English.  Or "bandits".  Does translating it into a language (that would obscure its recognizability to most) improve on the definition?  If not, what's the point?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on January 18, 2008, 12:14:31 am
Weapons and equipment, specifically weapons and equipment that is unique to a particular culture, should most certainly retain its original title or a common variant thereof.  This is done to properly identify the item without the need for an extensive glossary to translate the game terms into accepted descriptions.  This is common procedure in English anyway, where names of Asiatic weapons and armors have mostly been imported intact (or with only the influence of a bad accent) from at least one of their original languages.  This prevents the item from being confused with its counterparts from other cultures.

I'm sure that most people do not know the difference between many armors and weapons, most people who do know a little something about the subject refer to a tanto as a sword and can't spell the word wakizashi... this mod seems to have some educational value :)

However, use of Japanese to describe common items - "horse", "rice" - is excessive, considering that most of the target audience is English-speaking (at least somewhat), and relatively few of them are likely to be fluent in Japanese.

Yeah, I suppose you have to draw the line somewhere, altough I wouldn't mind if the war horses were called Kiso, and it would be nice to buy a komedawara (a sack of rice, 60kg) :green:

Does translating it into a language (that would obscure its recognizability to most) improve on the definition?  If not, what's the point?

Well..... it does add a lot of atmosphere, you really get the idea you're in feudal Japan, English words can really break the immersion (like the English voices in battle).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 18, 2008, 01:36:12 am
Granted, the English voices in battle ... well, those suck.  We need to do something about that.

Although I usually have to look up how to spell "wakizashi" ... and I own a couple of good hand-made kodachi and several cheap practice ones, and there are few people better than me with one.

I guess, technically, o-tanto over one shaku in length are by definition a "sword", even if their weight and balance suggests that they are long daggers.  A funny use of words and standard definitions.  I own two of those as well (not old nor particularly Japanese, but very nice hand-made Damascus-pattern layered blades), and I can't decide if they are very light wakizashi or very long aikuchi.  Effective as heck, whatever they are... good thing to keep under your arm when answering the door or checking out the strange noise outside.

Funny that way.  An 18-inch o-tanto or left-hand fencing dagger is clearly a knife.  An 18-inch blade on a Roman gladius, Chinese dao, or Iberian falcata is very clearly a hacking sword.  While a fencing rapier is not really a "sword" in the classical sense of being a cutting blade ... more like a long stiletto than anything else.  Yet Japan designated anything over one shaku (11.94 inches) as a "sword".  Makes no sense, really.

---------------------------------

But yeah, atmosphere is good, but not if it means the average player has to spend several years studying Japanese in order to understand the quests.  Certain terms must be transliterated from the original - I mean, "ikko-ikki" would look funny translated as "Fanatical Communist Buddhist Revolutionaries", nor would it really communicate what they were about.  But "rice"?  Rice is rice, no matter how many languages you translate it into.

On the other hand, that translation might clear up some of the confusion between "Ikko-ikki" (Fanatical Communist Buddhist Revolutionaries), Sohei ("Temple security forces"), and "Yamabushi" ("Wandering warrior-monk").... make it more understandable how someone could be more than one of those at the same time, or any one of the above without being one of the others.

I guess we could put rough translations into the game.  Just put them in brackets or something:

"Yojimbo (mercenary)"
"Tanto (dagger)"
"Yari (bladed spear)"
"O-yoroi (partial plate armor)"
"kusari-gote (maille armguards)"
"Shinobi (spy)"
"ninja (hit man)"
"Ikko-ikki (Fanatical Communist Buddhist Lunatic Revolutionaries)"

OK, so that last one is still a little wordy.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: sdog on January 18, 2008, 09:38:58 am
it's good to use the transliterated names instead of translations if it is for an item you can get, wich will explain it. If you don't know what a yari is, you will if you hold one in your hands (in the game). Names of historical persons or factions should also be transliterated, that's Yamana, Hosokawa, and also ikko-ikki.
However with names for not easily identifiable goods or abstract concept translations should be prefered to transliterations. You can't see if it is rice or milet or wheat in the game, you just have the name. Therefore you won't learn.

if it should get better immersion, it  would be consequent to replace transliterations with real japanese. What writing was used in that period? Modern day japanese alphabets are maybe to newly developed for this time. Kanji are some late 19th century chinese writing, if i remember correctly.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on January 18, 2008, 01:41:42 pm
Uhm, hiragana was in use during the Heian era, and katakana developed soon after if memory serves... while kanji are the Chinese characters that were imported way way back in the 6th century (give or take a couple decades).

For my part, I'm reasonably conversant in Japanese... but I'd still like to see us go back to English names for party members/enemy groups.  I think Ron sums the balance up pretty well: specialist terms that don't have real counterparts in English can be left in romaji (transliterated Japanese); anything generic, like rice or bandits or ruffians, don't need an air of specialisation about them and can be left in English.  (At least, that's how I read what you wrote Ron -- if I'm misinterpreting please correct me.)

Thassa my 2 mon. ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 18, 2008, 01:45:50 pm
Yeah, that was the summary of what I said.  How do you feel about putting translations in-game, as demonstrated above?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on January 18, 2008, 06:07:41 pm
Granted, the English voices in battle ... well, those suck.  We need to do something about that.
:green:

I guess, technically, o-tanto over one shaku in length are by definition a "sword", even if their weight and balance suggests that they are long daggers. Japan designated anything over one shaku (11.94 inches) as a "sword".  Makes no sense, really. A funny use of words and standard definitions. 

That's according to the modern Japanese sword laws, and they don't care much about historical accuracy, no Japanese sword law (modern or old) should be used as a guide for the definition of certain types of swords/daggers and their length.
But when I said "tanto" in my previous post, as being called a sword, I had blade lengths of of less then one shaku in mind... but okay, the o-tanto/ko-wakizashi/sunnobi-tanto does make an interesting conversation subject as some people classify it as a dagger, and others classify it as a sword.
However, there really can't be any doubt about tanto with blade lengths measuring less then one shaku as being daggers, I really don't get why some people call them samurai swords ???

I can't decide if they are very light wakizashi or very long aikuchi.  Effective as heck, whatever they are... 

I would call it a sunnobi-tanto in Japanese, and I would classify it as a dagger.
Akuchi really isn't a type of weapon at all, it simply refers to the lack of a tsuba, ai-kuchi=joint-mouth, it meets the mouth of the saya, hence the name.
It's very common for tanto and common for wakizashi, but very rare for blades longer then 2 shaku, Uesugi Kenshin's swords are very good historical examples of daito without a tsuba.
I have heard of aikuchi being referred to as a dagger without a tsuba and being translated as "pleasant companion", now that's just wrong, this mistake is usually made by western martial artists.

I guess we could put rough translations into the game.  Just put them in brackets or something:

"Yojimbo (mercenary)"
"Tanto (dagger)"
"Yari (bladed spear)"
"O-yoroi (partial plate armor)"
"kusari-gote (maille armguards)"
"Shinobi (spy)"
"ninja (hit man)"
"Ikko-ikki (Fanatical Communist Buddhist Lunatic Revolutionaries)"

OK, so that last one is still a little wordy.

I like that suggestion... but I wouldn't call a yojimbo a mercenary, it's correct translation is: bodyguard ;)
Some of the armor types might be a bit difficult to translate properly.
I like the Ikko-ikki translation :lol:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 18, 2008, 11:25:47 pm
I used the term "aikuchi" properly.  My shorter blades are mounted in smooth hardwood cases - usable shirasaya, as it were.  I like them that way - makes them less obtrusive when you have one under your left hand when you open the door. (My home security system.)  My favorite kodachi is also mounted this way ... gives it a light, quick, nose-heavy feeling that you don't get from blades with heavy fittings.

Still the difference between swords and daggers is blurred, realistically.  Even in Japanese, the term "wakizashi" probably translates best to English as "sidearm", and could refer to any weapon from tanto to katana length, as long as it was the shorter backup weapon carried with a heavier blade.  Usually it was some kind of kodachi or long tanto, but that was usually, not a rule.

I chose to translate "yojimbo" as "mercenary" because the term "bodyguard" in English has a very specific meaning complete with legal complications, and I cannot find any evidence that the Japanese term was so restrictive.  "Mercenary" seemed more to fit their role, i.e. more generic.  Technically, bodyguards and private security contractors are mercenaries, but not all are specifically "bodyguards".

The armor translations would have to stay pretty generic in order to fit on the line - a lot of "(iron lamellar armor)" without much explanation.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Papa Lazarou on January 19, 2008, 07:42:15 am
Wouldn't literal translations work for a bunch of terms?


I have to guess quite a lot here but for instance:

Tanto ~ small/short/part blade?
(same for staves - rokushakubo, hanbo, tanbo)

Kusari-gote ~ chain gloves?

O-yoroi ~ great (plenty equivalent words) armour?

Ikko-ikki ~ fanatics? (I guess you covered that)

I now realise that these aren't the best examples. Still, I think sometimes a more literal translation can be atmospheric and interesting. English has plenty of weird compounds when you look at it. Something to consider anyway.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 19, 2008, 07:57:31 am
I thought the examples I gave were pretty literal, or at least extremely descriptive

"Ninja (hit man)"

and o-yoroi does technically translate like "great armor", "great" reading large or impressive (like great-sword) rather than "of superior quality".  However that doesn't say much unless you know a lot about Japanese armors, and if you do, you will recognize the term anyway.

Although Japanese "kote" are *arm guards*, not "gloves".  Kote include the entire arm and sometimes the shoulders to the neck and underarm.  That is why they are rated so high in the mod - they include up to half of the upper body armor.

Since "half-blade" doesn't make sense in English, "tanto" translates as "dagger/combat knife".

-----------------------------------------------------

Still, it's an interesting thought ... should we include both English and Japanese for most every item?  Would that help anybody, or just clutter the screen?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: dulahan on January 19, 2008, 11:50:31 am
I think it would just clutter the screen, and honestly?  With items we can look at the numbers and have a good idea what we're getting, even if we don't know the actual translation.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on January 19, 2008, 05:25:41 pm
I tend to agree with dulahan here -- Japanese name followed by a parenthetical translation seems cumbersome.  You only need to see tanto (dagger) a few times before the (dagger) part feels condescending ;)

What would be better IMHO is to have a glossary, be it in-game or on these fora. While in theory that could be taken as a license to ditch English terms entirely, I'd still point out that items and party/troop types have different accessibility needs.  If you're in a shop and don't know what a nagamaki is and can't infer from its stats, it's no huge deal to cancel a transaction and look it up or just alt-tab out to find a glossary.  If you're chasing some bandits on the map and start getting pursued by a group with three umamawari in it, it's not as convenient a moment to stop what you're doing to find out whether those guys are plum sellers or heavy cavalry.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: dulahan on January 19, 2008, 05:29:25 pm
Bingo.  The Troop names pull me out of the immersion when I don't know what I'll be fighting.  Especially since I don't know what's what WHILE I'm fighting.  Some things are obvious, Samurai, Shinobi, even the Ninja ranks nowadays (Genin, Chuunin, Jounin), but not knowing if I'm chasing a bunch of ragtag bandits... or a band of heavy cavalry bandits is a big deal.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on January 20, 2008, 07:05:40 pm
I tend to agree with dulahan here -- Japanese name followed by a parenthetical translation seems cumbersome.  You only need to see tanto (dagger) a few times before the (dagger) part feels condescending ;)

What would be better IMHO is to have a glossary, be it in-game or on these fora. While in theory that could be taken as a license to ditch English terms entirely, I'd still point out that items and party/troop types have different accessibility needs.  If you're in a shop and don't know what a nagamaki is and can't infer from its stats, it's no huge deal to cancel a transaction and look it up or just alt-tab out to find a glossary.  If you're chasing some bandits on the map and start getting pursued by a group with three umamawari in it, it's not as convenient a moment to stop what you're doing to find out whether those guys are plum sellers or heavy cavalry.

An in-game glossary is a good idea, a glossary on the fora already exists here: http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,472.0.html (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,472.0.html) but it needs to be updated.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on January 30, 2008, 08:43:18 am
This is something I'd like to speak to...

I have plans for an in game glossary/dictionary. I'll admit, I probably overdid it with the Japanese translations of the bandit names, but there are numerous Japanese words that have no easy translation into English, and many more that if translated into English would cause the mod to loose some flavor. In some cases, the name is right, but the model is wrong, simply because of laziness (the aikuchi model is all wrong, for example). If this is important enough, I can make this a higher-priority item.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 30, 2008, 08:48:07 am
What's wrong with the aikuchi?  I remade it without tsuba in that last graphics rework ... it may not be exactly the style you might have been thinking of, but it's technically "right" - a tanto with no protruding fittings.

Seriously, M&B .90x now has in-game help/data screens in Native.  That should take care of the lack of help screens and such.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on January 30, 2008, 01:10:13 pm
What's wrong with the aikuchi?  I remade it without tsuba in that last graphics rework ... it may not be exactly the style you might have been thinking of, but it's technically "right" - a tanto with no protruding fittings.

Seriously, M&B .90x now has in-game help/data screens in Native.  That should take care of the lack of help screens and such.


I meant my laziness, not anyone else's. I was remembering an aikuchi with a plain, unfinished saya and tsuka. That's bad, when you've had your nose in the code so long you forget chunks of the rest of the mod...
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 30, 2008, 01:53:00 pm
Fujiwara:
The aikuchi in shirasaya (plain, unwrapped storage-type saya) that you remember is mine ... it's real - I sent you a picture of it on MSN, I think.  It was NOT what I put in the game ... the one in-game at least has some wrappings on the handle.

The hardwood handle is fine if you use bare hands, like when I get it under my hand when I answer the door.  It would be slick if wearing gloves, i.e. armor.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on January 30, 2008, 09:10:50 pm
It's actually the tanto that could use a make over, it's tsuba is too large for a tanto.


A tanto in a hamidashi koshirae.
(http://www.aoyama-do.com/katana/tanto3/02tn.jpg)

EDIT, when I  re-textured the tsuba of the tanto, I noticed that the index finger was poking through the tsuba.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Hellhound47 on February 11, 2008, 01:29:02 pm
Hello, I've seen a great thing, i don't know how do you call it, but there is a modder who made troops carry flags of thier faction, it looks just like in RAN movie :].
Well i don't know how are those flags called but here's a link to page with pictures (looks great) http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,23928.105.html *middle of the page*
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on February 11, 2008, 01:48:34 pm
The use of sashimono (which looks great in that picture BTW) is somewhat after the period Onin no Ran is set in. The great battles of the mid to late 16th C had hordes of sashimono-wearing ashigaru, but not this period.

EDIT: and thinking about it, sashimono would be fairly easy to do as a shield on the back of an NPC, though it wouldn't flutter in the breeze like it should.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 11, 2008, 04:04:05 pm
The use of sashimono (which looks great in that picture BTW) is somewhat after the period Onin no Ran is set in. The great battles of the mid to late 16th C had hordes of sashimono-wearing ashigaru, but not this period.

Right about "hordes of sashimono-wearing ashigaru" -- but is my memory mistaken in recalling that they were used by commanders as early as the late 14th century?  Or perhaps my memory is correct, but was misinformed due to faulty scholarship.  In any case, it gnaws at the back of my mind, though I shan't have any time to research this question further.

Historic or no, they do look cool.  Hurh... can't find the screenshots I made of such for some old Neverwinter Nights mods.  Oh well.

EDIT:  here they are (http://home.earthlink.net/~aethelwyn/armory/).  Not much really, especially considering this whole project got abandoned a few years back when my personal life enjoyed a series of complications.  :P
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: alexthegrand on February 19, 2008, 09:38:28 pm
I dont know if its been suggested yet,or if its even possible but is it possible to make this mod contain item durability?

couching lances break,  Swords an crack if they block too many hits, etc.  This would add a great deal of realism and fun to the game.  (awsome because we might see the traditional 2 sword carrying samurai)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 19, 2008, 09:48:37 pm
I dont know if its been suggested yet,or if its even possible but is it possible to make this mod contain item durability?

couching lances break,  Swords an crack if they block too many hits, etc.  This would add a great deal of realism and fun to the game.  (awsome because we might see the traditional 2 sword carrying samurai)

Not possible at this time ... at least not effectively.

But swords should not break if you block right - it takes a lot more than that to break a real sword.  ("Real" here defined as "not some modern stainless-steel decoration, but a blade actually made to hurt people".)

The thing of breaking a lance came from the European jousts, where blunt lances were tied to the horse and the rider, and then slammed into a steel shield at a full run.  I don't think you can break a Japanese yari by just picking it up and then riding into somebody.  You might drop it ... but that is a function that M&B can't currently simulate.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on February 20, 2008, 12:19:21 am
I already asked Armagan on the TW forums. Breakable weapons will never be implemented for M&B 1.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 23, 2008, 06:55:17 pm
 Ashigaru  black and also red hats will be nice  8) http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7092/bbvdaacc3.jpg http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vbooooct5.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: doorknobdeity on February 23, 2008, 07:55:23 pm
If I understand things correctly, dojos currently give you a big increase in a weapon skill, right? Couldn't the book system from native be incorporated? Like a "xxx-ryu technique scroll" item that gives, e.g., +2 to Weapon Master and +1 to Trainer, or something like that.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 23, 2008, 09:05:46 pm
If I understand things correctly, dojos currently give you a big increase in a weapon skill, right? Couldn't the book system from native be incorporated? Like a "xxx-ryu technique scroll" item that gives, e.g., +2 to Weapon Master and +1 to Trainer, or something like that.

I think the technical answer is "yes," but personally I think it's ill-fitted to this mod and particularly ill-suited to training in combat techniques.  There's no substitute for actual, physical practice.  (If there were, I could play Forqueray -- the viola da gamba's equivalent of Paganini.  And no, I don't mind if I'm the only one here who knows what that means :D)

The only things I'd care to see "trainable" with scrolls would be things like the following:

Tactics
Inventory Management
Trade
Persuasion (not really used right now?)
Tracking
Spotting (maybe -- tracking you can learn about, but spotting is a much more physical skill)
Siegecraft (if ever it gets used in ONR)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: doorknobdeity on February 24, 2008, 01:26:57 am
I think it would be more representational-- you have the skill, therefore the scroll, not the other way around. Or, if not a scroll, I understand that certificates are traditional for this sort of thing.

Another suggestion: could the scabbard for the uchigatana include a (nonfunctional) wakizashi/shoto model? It would be (I hope) historically accurate to have it as such, but there simply isn't much of a gameplay reason to have both daisho and shoto. Maybe the shoto's greater speed would be more useful in certain situations, but the uchigatana isn't really slow.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 24, 2008, 02:28:38 am
The real purpose for the short swords was so that, when you went indoors and removed your long sword, you would still be armed.  Since M&B characters don't really spend much time going to social events, the effect is lost.

Perhaps in future versions, when more stuff in town is implemented, there would be more opportunities to use this feature.  Native has a function where players remove weapons and helmets before going to the castle ... so it might be possible to implement.

Until then ... well, no, a fake one would just look funny.  Can't really be done effectively without just looking fake.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: doorknobdeity on February 24, 2008, 03:36:19 am
I'm sorry, but how would it look fake? In my mind, as things are, things look a bit incongruous, to have the daisho but not the shoto. If it looked like you had a wakizashi, but you really didn't, then perhaps things would feel wrong when you can't equip anything but the katana, but at least it would look right, and in any case there aren't too many good reasons to go for the wakizashi when you have a katana. But that's just my two cents. Stay well.

Edit: A second suggestion: again using the book mechanic, perhaps having "Maps of Japan" to increase pathfinding would be good. Getting around can take a while, what with the big map, and every bit counts.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 24, 2008, 09:22:42 am
Getting around DID take a while.  Before the Meiji era, even the trip between Kyoto and Nara -- a mere 50 km, nowadays about an hour by local train making dozens of stops along the way -- was considered a major adventure.  Roads were terrible to nonexistant.  If anything I think travel is still a little too fast in ONR, personally, but it's better than it was before.  At least it feels like a journey when travelling from Kyoto to Imazu now.  8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: doorknobdeity on February 24, 2008, 02:35:52 pm
See, this is where the disconnect between historical accuracy and (to me, at least) good gameplay sort of breaks down. Between the large armies one inevitably builds up, and the huge distance one must cover, you spend a lot of time doing nothing. I don't think a couple points of Pathfinding will shatter the immersion.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 24, 2008, 03:39:06 pm
I dunno, wherever I go there's usually some patrols I can beat up, or bandits I can round up.  At very least as a bushi I'm getting plenty of action.  And personally I think inventory/supply and morale management are part of what makes "good gameplay" for M&B and ONR.  I see no disconnect there.

Then again, I usually keep my forces to a rather compact elite group, around 30 good (mostly mounted) units.  More seems superfluous and are hard to manage, to boot.  It's not like you're being asked (or even can?) go toe-to-toe with the enemy factions' armies, after all... but perhaps YMMV.

I do acknowledge, further slowing travel might put a dent in others' enjoyment of the game, but so would speeding it up.  Not sure where Fujiwara wants to strike the balance unless he considers it already struck  8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: doorknobdeity on February 25, 2008, 12:45:06 am
Almost all of the two-handed swords have the one-handed/two-handed thing going on. While this doesn't really make any difference in a game with no shields, it does mean that some minor things-- like the idle animation-- are different. With these hand-and-a-half weapons, the weapon is held at the wielder's side; a two-handed only weapon is held upright, and, I think, looks better.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 25, 2008, 08:56:14 am
Quick question:  Is it planned (or even possible) to make access to cities/towns dependent on one's standing with a particular faction?  That's been one thing that's felt "off" for quite some time.  I'm guessing Fujiwara just hasn't gotten to it yet -- fine if so, but I just wanted to check in on it.  8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 25, 2008, 09:52:20 am
Quick question:  Is it planned (or even possible) to make access to cities/towns dependent on one's standing with a particular faction?  That's been one thing that's felt "off" for quite some time.  I'm guessing Fujiwara just hasn't gotten to it yet -- fine if so, but I just wanted to check in on it.  8)

Is certainly possible ... native had this way back in, like, .751 or something.  Theirs even included sneaking into town if it was hostile.  Just that OnR hasn't got around to it yet.  Nor any of the other 9000 city-related combat themes that go with that.  Heck, OnR just got cities a couple of releases ago ... they were just menus very recently.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 25, 2008, 11:30:57 am
Is certainly possible ... native had this way back in, like, .751 or something.  Theirs even included sneaking into town if it was hostile.  Just that OnR hasn't got around to it yet.  Nor any of the other 9000 city-related combat themes that go with that.  Heck, OnR just got cities a couple of releases ago ... they were just menus very recently.

All that is very well understood, and I certainly remember the infamous menu-towns (which some people other than I seem to prefer).  Just wondering if restricting town access in any way is on the docket or not.  I don't have the same road-map in front of me as you and Fujiwara do  8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 25, 2008, 03:55:16 pm
Most of the road map on code is in Fujiwara's head.  I'm just repeating stuff that was mentioned in earlier posts, conversations, and such.  I have been known to interject stuff into his plan, and/or to go off and build projects on my own ... but the fact that castle and city combat was discussed in several threads really had little to do with me.  (My only serious contribution there was suggesting that gates be breached by leaning burning logs against them... which is both historical and possible in M&B.  Although I was certainly not the first one to think of it.)

More will be done with cities, eventually.  Fujiwara is working on it.  I'm not being much help on that one ... both the graphics and the code there are beyond me.

And, of course, the cities will be a lot more interesting if and when we get more stuff happening in them ... the menu-town format is attractive if tromping across the city is just a time-waster, but if there were useful (or dangerous) interactions in cities, then there would be reason to wander around the streets.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 25, 2008, 05:41:41 pm
I guess I'm just not equating "restricted access to towns" and "castle and city combat" by default.  ;)  They can and probably should relate, but it's not a given.  Call it a relic of old-style M&B thinking  :green:

What I gather from your last post is that making faction standing meaningful for access to towns is definitely planned, which is great!  If I missed that being spelled out somewhere before, apologies.  I can rest my mind on this particular subject.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 25, 2008, 05:54:49 pm
I guess I'm just not equating "restricted access to towns" and "castle and city combat" by default.  ;)  They can and probably should relate, but it's not a given.  Call it a relic of old-style M&B thinking  :green:

What I gather from your last post is that making faction standing meaningful for access to towns is definitely planned, which is great!  If I missed that being spelled out somewhere before, apologies.  I can rest my mind on this particular subject.

They're only really related if you have to sneak or fight your way into or out of a town ... but since these are part of restricting access, one creates the other.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 26, 2008, 12:01:33 pm
hey how about Ninja attacks  :green: if can hire Ninjas  heres a picture of the stuff they used and info  8)  http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8175/tyyyyuubo4.jpg http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7466/bbbgd3.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 26, 2008, 12:19:52 pm
Always take anything Steven Turnbull says with at least a grain of salt (if not a whole salt lick).  While he may or may not point the way to actual historical truth, everything I've read of his is highly unsourced.  "Unsourced" in the world of scholars translates to "Stop BSing and back it up with some evidence, please."   8)

Or, if you're a Wikipedian, just imagine every "fact" followed by a little [citation needed] tag  :green:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on February 26, 2008, 04:22:44 pm
More is planned with the cities; sieging, covert-type operations for shinobi-characters, back-alley unpleasantness. I think the new wards provide a excellent back drop for that, and that is certainly a happy bit of serendipity, since I certainly wasn't thinking about that when I built them.

If anyone can provide photographs of different Japanese architecture, I'd appreciate it, since the criticism that all the buildings look this same is valid.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 26, 2008, 05:25:28 pm
If anyone can provide photographs of different Japanese architecture, I'd appreciate it, since the criticism that all the buildings look this same is valid.

Actually, if you provide a list of kinds of buildings you really want and some poly budgets/texture size preferences, you may well end up with more than just photos.  Compared to ships, architecture is easy and I examined all I reasonably could during my trip to Japan.  Might just be the palate-cleanser I was talking about in another thread.  8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 26, 2008, 08:32:51 pm
Fujiwara:
Off the last topic, but the command screen (when you hit "backspace in the fight screen) still has no map.  Get with Highlander - he has an app that will do the map with full topography.  I've seen it working (he first added it to "Cult of the Big Lizard") ... it's great.  And considering how rough a lot of the terrain is in OnR, it would really help.  Although I didn't ask him recently, as far as I know he's distributing it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 26, 2008, 09:10:48 pm
More is planned with the cities; sieging, covert-type operations for shinobi-characters, back-alley unpleasantness. I think the new wards provide a excellent back drop for that, and that is certainly a happy bit of serendipity, since I certainly wasn't thinking about that when I built them.

If anyone can provide photographs of different Japanese architecture, I'd appreciate it, since the criticism that all the buildings look this same is valid.
ok i try to help you with pictures ok  :P 8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 26, 2008, 09:31:59 pm
i have an idea for a simple Castle Siege  like in these  pictures  enemy must rush a gate house  :D    http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1159/mmnnbuooqj0.jpg    http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/864/mmnnb6vi5.jpg   http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2668/castle2sq3.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 26, 2008, 09:42:57 pm
and if you wont to see some very nice pictures  and info of Japanese Castles  this is one of the best links  8)  http://www.jcastle.info/
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 26, 2008, 10:11:41 pm
Oh, and carlo - on the ninja/shinobi equipment, we are somewhat limited in M&B by the inability to do animated (vertex or skeletal) melee weapons (and only limited animation on bows).  This makes it quite impossible to do rope, chain, or flail type weapons.

However, we are aware of the weapons used by such.  You will find the dojo at Iga quite interesting.  (They train with live blades and shruiken, and the reward NPC there is a pretty scary sort of person.)

But historically, most of their equipment was also used by everybody else as well.  The shruiken, especially, were used by all kinds of military types (samurai, ashigaru, shinobi, yojimbo), and for civilian personal defense.  (Musashi was cited by some stories as using them in duels.)  Jitte and sai were carried by both samurai and local law enforcement in Japan and Okinawa for centuries (although the jitte was later formalized into an official symbol of office).  Kusarigama (sickle and chain) was taught to samurai in many parts of Japan.  Their ropes and hooks were, for the most part, standard military equipment or variations thereof - the same ropes and hooks used to tie up boats or horses, climb walls, whatever.

The "ninja" - assasins - were really not all that different from other professional military types ... no more so than, say, scout snipers are from other types of modern military units.  (Actually, the USMC scout-sniper is a very good analogy to their role - observation/intel-gathering and selective elimination.)  Standing in a group of samurai having a drink, they would probably go unnoticed.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 26, 2008, 10:25:50 pm
Oh, and carlo - on the ninja/shinobi equipment, we are somewhat limited in M&B by the inability to do animated (vertex or skeletal) melee weapons (and only limited animation on bows).  This makes it quite impossible to do rope, chain, or flail type weapons.

However, we are aware of the weapons used by such.  You will find the dojo at Iga quite interesting.  (They train with live blades and shruiken, and the reward NPC there is a pretty scary sort of person.)

But historically, most of their equipment was also used by everybody else as well.  The shruiken, especially, were used by all kinds of military types (samurai, ashigaru, shinobi, yojimbo), and for civilian personal defense.  (Musashi was cited by some stories as using them in duels.)  Jitte and sai were carried by both samurai and local law enforcement in Japan and Okinawa for centuries (although the jitte was later formalized into an official symbol of office).  Kusarigama (sickle and chain) was taught to samurai in many parts of Japan.  Their ropes and hooks were, for the most part, standard military equipment or variations thereof - the same ropes and hooks used to tie up boats or horses, climb walls, whatever.

The "ninja" - assasins - were really not all that different from other professional military types ... no more so than, say, scout snipers are from other types of modern military units.  (Actually, the USMC scout-sniper is a very good analogy to their role - observation/intel-gathering and selective elimination.)  Standing in a group of samurai having a drink, they would probably go unnoticed.  yes thats fine with no chain :green: i Dont like them  much 

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: doorknobdeity on February 27, 2008, 03:28:40 am
Could you guarantee boots for the troop types with heavy armor? It's kind of silly to see barefoot samurai in heavy armor.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 27, 2008, 07:54:36 am
Could you guarantee boots for the troop types with heavy armor? It's kind of silly to see barefoot samurai in heavy armor.

In all irony, it was only about the Onin War period that Samurai started wearing substantial armor on their lower legs.  It was largely in response to naginata attacks being targeted low.  Even with the leg armor, they mostly just wore sandals on the feet.  If it was cold, they wrapped fur over the leg.  Of all the things not to exist in Japan, "boots" seem to be the one thing that was missing.

But yeah, that was supposed to be there, even if it was just sandals on the feet.  A typo.  If Fujiwara doesn't get it, I'll try to remember the next time I get my hands on the module system files.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 27, 2008, 08:35:06 am
Could you guarantee boots for the troop types with heavy armor? It's kind of silly to see barefoot samurai in heavy armor.
well  Samurai in heavy armor did wear waraji sandals and tabi socks like this http://kikuko.web.infoseek.co.jp/english/waraji1.jpg  http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1199/warajikx8.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 27, 2008, 09:00:28 am
Somehow the mention of "it's a typo" reminds me, there's one little thing that's always bugged me about the starting parameters of ONR:  As a male bushi character you start out with no bow skills, just swordsmanship.  Yet the ladies start out proficient with bows.  That seems a little odd, considering the high value Japanese warriors always have placed on archery.  8)

Ultimately it might be nice to get to choose one's starting weapon preferences, or else start as a very raw recruit and make real use of the dojo training.  Sometimes you really want your bushi man to be a nagamaki-and-bow-wielding maniac, but you're railroaded into being a swordsman who can't even pelt rocks right at the start.

Anyway, minor issue, just thought I'd offer the suggestion.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on February 27, 2008, 09:25:52 am
If anyone can provide photographs of different Japanese architecture, I'd appreciate it, since the criticism that all the buildings look this same is valid.

Actually, if you provide a list of kinds of buildings you really want and some poly budgets/texture size preferences, you may well end up with more than just photos.  Compared to ships, architecture is easy and I examined all I reasonably could during my trip to Japan.  Might just be the palate-cleanser I was talking about in another thread.  8)

Peasant buildings, temples, shinto shrines; What I've got right now is sort of an amalgamation of middle class/lower nobility sort of construction, and its everywhere. Texture size: 1024^2 max is good, and for poly size look at some of the larger buildings in BRFEdit (i'm not at home to check myself).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on February 27, 2008, 10:15:52 am
Peasant buildings, temples, shinto shrines; What I've got right now is sort of an amalgamation of middle class/lower nobility sort of construction, and its everywhere. Texture size: 1024^2 max is good, and for poly size look at some of the larger buildings in BRFEdit (i'm not at home to check myself).

Will do.  Visited lots of temples and shrines (as well as some of the obligatory castles, post-dated as they are).  Peasant buildings, now that's one that could use some research assistance.  I think the closest I've seen are the post-period "rusticated tea houses" invented by Sen no Rikyuu and company.  While they obviously and deliberately take peasant houses as their starting point, they just as obviously and deliberately alter them for purely aesthetic reasons -- it's kind of like bonsai techniques applied to architecture, "faked naturalism."  (Irony is, literally right over my head as I'm typing is a replica of one of Kyoto's most famous teahouses, which I watched being assembled by Japanese workers over the course of a couple months.  And smelled... freshly-milled hinoki wood is quite aromatic! But I digress...)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 27, 2008, 11:39:47 am
Peasant buildings, temples, shinto shrines; What I've got right now is sort of an amalgamation of middle class/lower nobility sort of construction, and its everywhere. Texture size: 1024^2 max is good, and for poly size look at some of the larger buildings in BRFEdit (i'm not at home to check myself).

Will do.  Visited lots of temples and shrines (as well as some of the obligatory castles, post-dated as they are).  Peasant buildings, now that's one that could use some research assistance.  I think the closest I've seen are the post-period "rusticated tea houses" invented by Sen no Rikyuu and company.  While they obviously and deliberately take peasant houses as their starting point, they just as obviously and deliberately alter them for purely aesthetic reasons -- it's kind of like bonsai techniques applied to architecture, "faked naturalism."  (Irony is, literally right over my head as I'm typing is a replica of one of Kyoto's most famous teahouses, which I watched being assembled by Japanese workers over the course of a couple months.  And smelled... freshly-milled hinoki wood is quite aromatic! But I digress...)
i got some picture of buildings  :D  http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2610/bbbcxef2.jpg  http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5714/gfdsfw6.jpg  http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6528/mmmjutytme4.jpg http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jhggghjjgjhhgj7.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 28, 2008, 04:50:02 pm
yes i post this here sorry about the post on castles   i only try to help people  :-[  please move it here and delete the other post thanks  :D
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on February 29, 2008, 08:47:22 am
And we appreciate the help. It just makes extra work for me as the moderator of the board to manage all the extra threads :) Just a little bit of netiquette to pass on
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on February 29, 2008, 11:00:46 am
ok thanks  fujiwara :D here 2 more picture of a small castle in japan very cute  :green:  http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7784/img9000tl0.jpg  http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1553/img9007rl6.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: MaD LOrD on March 02, 2008, 09:30:39 am
Any hope to be able to burn and loot villages? That would be helpful
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 02, 2008, 11:10:31 am
Any hope to be able to burn and loot villages? That would be helpful
yes Also i llke to have to defend a village  and have a fight in  small house and court yard  like in these pictures http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2975/aaaapo887fn6.png  http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4338/veeewwtn2.png
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 02, 2008, 05:34:45 pm
Any hope to be able to burn and loot villages? That would be helpful
yes Also i llke to have to defend a village  and have a fight in  small house and court yard  like in these pictures http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2975/aaaapo887fn6.png  http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4338/veeewwtn2.png

Actually ... stand by.  Village ownership, attack and defense are on the to-do list.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 03, 2008, 08:32:01 am
Any hope to be able to burn and loot villages? That would be helpful
yes Also i llke to have to defend a village  and have a fight in  small house and court yard  like in these pictures http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2975/aaaapo887fn6.png  http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4338/veeewwtn2.png

Actually ... stand by.  Village ownership, attack and defense are on the to-do list.

good that be Great  :green: 8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 03, 2008, 08:46:26 am
Any hope to be able to burn and loot villages? That would be helpful
yes Also i llke to have to defend a village  and have a fight in  small house and court yard  like in these pictures http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2975/aaaapo887fn6.png  http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4338/veeewwtn2.png

Actually ... stand by.  Village ownership, attack and defense are on the to-do list.

good that be Great  :green: 8)

But don't expect it immediately ... we've kind of got bigger fish to fry first.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: MaD LOrD on March 04, 2008, 10:46:39 am
Also, I think it's a good idea to change the way troops upgrade a bit... it's strange that a ronin immideately becomes a samurai with expensive armor, weapon and so on. I would rather make ronins a separate from samurai upgrade tree, so they would always be in robes, but have better weapons with greater levels, and get better skills. I mean, it's riddiculos, when the master of a small samurai can not afford to get a decent armor, and his warriors already have the best one around.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 04, 2008, 11:08:41 am
That's a problem with the loot, actually.  Fujiwara cut it a bit to make the game more of a challenge, and got it a little too much, I'm thinking.  (I built an army of like 70 really high-level cav, and still only had any substantial armor at all on a couple of my hero characters.)  I was going to say something on that, but I kept forgetting.

But actually, from Ronin to Samurai, they don't get that much equipment.  The Ronin start out with a blade.  The only addition is possibility (not assured) of some armor, and that is usually the lower end, comperable to what you see on mid-range bandits.  Shiny, sure, but seldom great.  (Hard to see that on the screen ... Japanese armors tend to look a lot the same, no matter if they're leather or iron, light or heavy.)  It's not for several more levels before their equipment gets good.  I only know this because I've seen the troops.py code - you could miss it in casual observation.

For names of upgrades, ronin = unemployed warrior, so when he establishes himself in a job, = samurai.  That part of the upgrade tree is accurate.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 04, 2008, 01:23:00 pm
guys did you ever see a mask like this  :green: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnmf61T44EA watch the blade come into the straw hut
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 04, 2008, 06:36:01 pm
Menpo (masks) were often decorated like all kinds of things.  Although the mask in that video was from "noh" theater - it's not designed to be worn with a helmet.

Currently we only have a couple of models for menpo, although there will be a good rather clown-looking one to go with the wide neck guard helmets, just as soon as I get it in the game.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 05, 2008, 08:09:24 am
theres some  info for people who wont to know about helmets here  :D http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/samurai_helmet_drawing.html   http://quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/japanese.html#samurai
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 05, 2008, 08:56:21 am
also some Japanese rooms  :D http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3176/c01qe1.jpg   http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/5605/d28zn0.jpg   http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1494/c03at2.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on March 05, 2008, 01:38:12 pm
Update:

This was a good weekend, apparently. Good work with the shaders, Ron and Signore Tarini. Now I'll HAVE to go buy a new video card...

Got lots of coding done. Most of the quest bugs are fixed, and the first parts of the merchant quests and activities are added. Also, built the shoen investment system, which has turned out to be a sort of stock market. It was very interesting trying to code something dynamic like that within the framework of MBscript, but I think people will like the results, and it gives players a way to earn enough money for the high end armors and weapons, and to maintain large, high-level armies (which is how it in worked in Japan anyway).

For people unfamiliar with the feudal Japanese economy, shoen were a legal structure similar to the feudal manor of medieval Europe set up to avoid taxation by the central government. Land-owning peasants would hand nominal ownership of their land over to some tax-free entity, like a Buddhist temple, to avoid the roughly 3% tax. Wealthy buke and kuge would purchase interests in these shoen an as investment, which would yield a dividend over time, and some eventually took ownership of the land, effectively tying the original peasants to the land. Eventually, all the land in Japan became organized as shoen, effectively starving the central government of tax revenue (one possible cause of the breakdown of the bakufu). Since the details of this are not available to English-speaking only researchers, I've set this up as a simple stock market, where shares of a particular shoen can be bought and sold through a broker (commission-free!), and dividends collected. A shoen's share price changes over time based on demand, shoen productivity, and amount of improvements to the shoen. AI NPC lords can also buy and sell shares of shoen, setting up a competitve environment with the player.

Another good weekend of coding like that and v0.6.3 might be ready for release...but nobody hold your breath  8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 05, 2008, 01:45:14 pm
Update:

This was a good weekend, apparently. Good work with the shaders, Ron and Signore Tarini. Now I'll HAVE to go buy a new video card...

Got lots of coding done. Most of the quest bugs are fixed, and the first parts of the merchant quests and activities are added. Also, built the shoen investment system, which has turned out to be a sort of stock market. It was very interesting trying to code something dynamic like that within the framework of MBscript, but I think people will like the results, and it gives players a way to earn enough money for the high end armors and weapons, and to maintain large, high-level armies (which is how it in worked in Japan anyway).

For people unfamiliar with the feudal Japanese economy, shoen were a legal structure similar to the feudal manor of medieval Europe set up to avoid taxation by the central government. Land-owning peasants would hand nominal ownership of their land over to some tax-free entity, like a Buddhist temple, to avoid the roughly 3% tax. Wealthy buke and kuge would purchase interests in these shoen an as investment, which would yield a dividend over time, and some eventually took ownership of the land, effectively tying the original peasants to the land. Eventually, all the land in Japan became organized as shoen, effectively starving the central government of tax revenue (one possible cause of the breakdown of the bakufu). Since the details of this are not available to English-speaking only researchers, I've set this up as a simple stock market, where shares of a particular shoen can be bought and sold through a broker (commission-free!), and dividends collected. A shoen's share price changes over time based on demand, shoen productivity, and amount of improvements to the shoen. AI NPC lords can also buy and sell shares of shoen, setting up a competitve environment with the player.

Another good weekend of coding like that and v0.6.3 might be ready for release...but nobody hold your breath  8)
why a new video card  what one did you have before if you dont mind me asking :)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: MaD LOrD on March 05, 2008, 01:48:41 pm
Hey, fujiwara, any hope to see bandit quests working in the upcoming versions of ONR? I mean, I finally found where the bandit lair is, but... there was no one inside! And after some time, the bandits who were patrolling around the camp started to attack me! This is a bit sad... I want to be a ba-aaandit! *keeps whining*
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 05, 2008, 02:37:43 pm
Hey, fujiwara, any hope to see bandit quests working in the upcoming versions of ONR? I mean, I finally found where the bandit lair is, but... there was no one inside! And after some time, the bandits who were patrolling around the camp started to attack me! This is a bit sad... I want to be a ba-aaandit! *keeps whining*
hehehehe you wont to Rob people of food and goods   :green: :green:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on March 06, 2008, 01:55:58 pm
why a new video card  what one did you have before if you dont mind me asking :)

Because my card runs really slow on the DX9 shaders
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 06, 2008, 03:24:50 pm
why a new video card  what one did you have before if you dont mind me asking :)

Because my card runs really slow on the DX9 shaders
ok thanks for the reply i hope you get a nice card that will be ok  :D
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Finwulf on March 11, 2008, 06:39:22 am
How about adding different colored armors? Pretty boring considering there's only red, blue or gray colored. Not suggesting to over-write, but to make new models using the old ones as templates, then adding different textures.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 11, 2008, 07:14:25 am
How about adding different colored armors? Pretty boring considering there's only red, blue or gray colored. Not suggesting to over-write, but to make new models using the old ones as templates, then adding different textures.


The O-yoroi come in about 20 different patterns (some red, some blue or purple, some gray and some gold)... although you might not notice that, just looking at the little models for sale.  Agree that the do-maru armors don't have much variety, but that is somewhat historical - that vertical lace pattern does work best if used with solid colors.  The red on one side of the war, blues and purples on the other, and everybody else trying to pick colors that will not be confused for one or the other ... that is history.  The basic color scheme stays.

We really need new models and textures for some of the armors.  However, in spite of having done the last couple of graphics improvement packages, I really do not have the skills to rig armor, nor to texture it and make it really look right.  Several of the current armors are just recolored versions of the Native "samurai armor", and so highly inaccurate for our time period.  But even accuracy is on hold at the moment.

So until we round up enough help to finish up the armors, or my graphics skills improve, we're going to make do with what we have.

---------------------
There should be some new ideas in helmets soon ... so there is hope that the armor will get cleaned up eventually.

Anyone wanting to take a crack at it, meanwhile, should feel free to try.  You can overwrite a texture file for testing purposes, thereby automatically putting the new texture into the game, without having to mess with the module system.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 11, 2008, 08:40:50 pm
walls the walls   i did notice in the towns the walls look  like they  made  in china  :green: they should be white  and low  here some more pictures and some small temple and samurai house  :P :green: http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8520/jsh03paint2la8.jpg   http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7553/jsh06paint1yf5.jpg  http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/120/jt1oliviertemple2jw1.jpg  http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5964/jt01perrymonks4ty6.jpg  http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8049/jsh04paint1uc7.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 11, 2008, 09:01:29 pm
walls the walls   i did notice in the towns the walls look  like they  made  in china  :green: they should be white  and low  here some more pictures and some small temple and samurai house  :P :green:

There was a really well researched thread on castle walls and fortifications, just a little bit earlier ... you can find it with a quick search of the ONR subforum.  They have not yet been put into the game, due to a few questions on how to model certain events.

And we can't really do "all black" armor, because all of those cords and such are just paint on a flat surface model.  If the colors on the armor and the laces are too close to each other, it will show that there is no real depth there.  Plus I don't know of any historical examples where Japanese lamellar armor was black with black lace... the Japanese were much too flashy for that.

In the future, please use the "modify" button rather than double-posting.  Many people here are greatly annoyed by that.  If you need quotes from several posts, they can be inserted with the little "insert quote" things on previous posts.  The only exception to the double-post rule is if the thread is a series of announcements with relatively substantial time passing between them ... and while Fujiwara or myself may do that from time to time, this noise does not qualify.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 11, 2008, 09:54:01 pm
ok Ron well can you please give me the link to the sub forum i cant find it ?? i like to see what people say on castle walls and fortifications topic thanks  :D
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 11, 2008, 11:41:46 pm
ok Ron well can you please give me the link to the sub forum i cant find it ?? i like to see what people say on castle walls and fortifications topic thanks  :D

Try the "historical discussions" thread, starting about page 2 or 3.

There's some much better research there than snapshots of recently made models, for sure.

Also, in the future - you don't need a forum post and 2 PM's to get someone's attention.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on March 12, 2008, 01:18:26 am
ok Ron well can you please give me the link to the sub forum i cant find it ?? i like to see what people say on castle walls and fortifications topic thanks  :D

Try the "historical discussions" thread, starting about page 2 or 3.

There's some much better research there than snapshots of recently made models, for sure.

Also, in the future - you don't need a forum post and 2 PM's to get someone's attention.
yes well its odd when i went to send you a pm Nothing was going out??  i  Dont  know  why  you got 2
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 12, 2008, 01:27:22 am
True that, the way this forum is set up, there's not really much notification that the PM's are sent.  A person could wonder if the message was delivered.... especially if, like me, your system is prone to interruptions in internet service.

Usually, however, this board tends to send, deliver, or post something as soon as you hit the button, even if there is no confirmation.  If in doubt, assume it went through.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on March 23, 2008, 08:15:18 pm
The quivers in ONR hold about 24 arrows, Japanese quivers can hold a lot of arrows (it does depend on the type as ya-tsutsu can hold about 5 arrows), but quivers used for war during the Onin jidai could hold about 40 to 50 arrows (some quivers could hold about 100 arrows).
So it would be nice if some different quiver sizes were introduced into the game (should be easy to do, right?).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 23, 2008, 09:16:57 pm
The quivers in ONR hold about 24 arrows, Japanese quivers can hold a lot of arrows (it does depend on the type as ya-tsutsu can hold about 5 arrows), but quivers used for war during the Onin jidai could hold about 40 to 50 arrows (some quivers could hold about 100 arrows).
So it would be nice if some different quiver sizes were introduced into the game (should be easy to do, right?).

Yeah, would theoretically be easy enough to do.  A lot of messing around to build quivers - they're animated - but when building them it doesn't really matter what size we make them.

... except that for reasons of balance, it could come out funny.  The four slots that the game gives you for weapons are much more limiting than weight, so earlier discussions revolved around the idea that if anybody wanted to do like the Mongols and carry 50 arrows, that would be the equivalent of carrying two quivers in the game.  (Or 75 for 3.)  That was a big question way back when ... ONR for .751 and the first versions of the RCM.  I was probably the squeaky wheel in getting them increased from 12 to 24 then - and that was before I was really "team", back when I first got started in M&B modding.

However, it is tempting.  The Japanese were known for carrying excessive numbers of weapons - a bow, anywhere from 20 to 100 arrows, two or three swords and a dagger, a fantasy-looking spear, and 60 pounds of armor complete with horns on the helmet, and that was just the basic equipment.  (The woodblock print on the cover of "Tanki Yoriaku", published 1735, shows the guy carrying three swords and a spear.  Guess he figured that if he was going to get killed, it wasn't going to be for lack of fighting back.)  Trying to relay that feeling has certain historical and entertainment value.

And having played it a bit more, I am developing doubts that running out of arrows is a major game balance issue.  I seldom fire more than 24 shots, no matter how wild things get.  Of course, the fact that my major tactic is a charge with a lot of heavy horse might have something to do with that ... but still...


Fujiwara:  What do you think?  Should we add the "quiver the size of a beer keg"?  Some people have said there was too much ranged combat in ONR already, while from a historical standpoint, I was wondering if there was enough ... so I'm not sure I want to make that call.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on March 26, 2008, 12:17:56 pm
I don't have a problem with it. The only reason we set it at 24 was that was the "traditional" loadout for a single quiver. But, I'm with you Ron...I don't use more than 24 in a given round of combat. Now, if I were laying siege to some fortification, which I intend to come soon, I can see the need for MOAR ARROWS!!!1!1!!!!one!
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on March 26, 2008, 04:26:07 pm
I'm all for bigger quivers. The first thing I do for most mods is open up itemskinds.txt and edit the number of arrows in the quivers.  It'd be nice to be able to select from small, medium and large quivers for siege situations. It's too bad that the AI troops can't really benefit from different quiver sizes for sieges.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Gloranor on March 26, 2008, 08:06:41 pm
I'm using 48-arrow quivers as well (my parties are usually very heavy on yumi bushi/samurai) .

Anyway, this a gripe I've had since I played native ages ago, but it has been magnified by the high prices of equipment (and the current low level of loot): Troops shouldn't get expensive equipment out of nowhere - especially armour the player can't afford for his closest companions (the NPCs).
Rather, you'd have to provide the armour either directly (buy them) or let them scavenge it from enemies - just training a few ronin won't give them armor costing houndreds of thousands of mon, combined.

One way to solve this would be to give every stack of units an inventory, and equip them from it - if there are 20 yumi samurai, but the yumi samurai stack has only 19 pieces of armour, 19 will equip the various armour and one will have to do with clothes.
The advantage of this is that you could micromanage everything.
The disadvantage of this is that you'd have to micromanage everything - it'll get bothersome really soon (transferring equipment when upgrading, etc.). Some of this might be alleviated by giving the option to allow to take what they need from the loot (some mods have this for heroes already).
It also doesn't simulate wear and tear.

The other idea I've been kicking around in my head for some time now is to abstract all this by introducing kits - each represents a complete suit of armour of a certain class (light(haraate etc.), medium(do-maru and similar), heavy (o-yoroi) - just as an example) as well as weapons and other necessary equipment for your average samurai (or ashigaru, in the case of a light kit).
Kits could either be in reserve (in which case they would be in the players inventory, taking space and weighting you down) or in use (which would be tracked by a variable - "party has 3 light, 10 medium, 2 heavy kit in use).
If you want to upgrade a troop to a type that uses a heavier kit, you have to have one in reserve (the lighter one would be freed by the upgrade and returned to your inventory).
There would be two main sources for kits: you could buy them at a smithy (though medium and especially heavy kits will be hideously expensive) or convert them from what you've scavenged after you win a fight (first, the normal loot screen, then give the player the option to let his troops convert the rest to the appropriate kits (haraate + 2 weapons = 1 light kit, and so on) and show the changed loot screen. Additionally, troops from your shugo (and other higher-level troops that join you) would already have an appropriate kit.
Kits could also become damage after a troop is knocked out or dies or after heavy fights (randomly) (I've no idea what the realistic rate of this would be, though) - unless their kit is replaced they wouldn't be able to fight efficiently (don't allow them to recover from the KO? not sure what is possible enginewise) - and damaged kits would be re-added to the player's inventory (to be repaired, or sold).
Cavalry could also require a fitting horse in addition to a kit - so the palyer can have a force consisting just of heavy cavalry, but he'll have to provide all the war horses (and replace those killed in fights).
The advantage of this model is that it models wear&tear, as well as promoting "normal" party compositions - you can raise a few dozen ashigaru with ease (a few parties of river bandits, or alternatively _relatively_ little money), but samurai are much harder to gather (unless you're a member of a faction - in which case you're depending on the rest of your faction to deal with initial costs).

Alternatively, you could have spawn units with different sets of equipment, depending on what kit they have access too - so if you have more medium kits than necessary, even ronin will wear armor, but if you're missing a few heavy kits, some of your high-level troops will be wearing medium armor instead. Ashigaru probably shouldn't be allowed to wear samurai kits (et vice versa), though. This would disconnect the experience/training and equipment pairing - yes, usually top-level troops will have top-level equipment (non-player armies will have troops with the normal equipment, and high-level units would get heavy kits first), but if you're swimming in supplies, even the lower-ranked units will get first-class equipment. On the other hand,  if you're running low on everything, even your premier units will have to make do with second-rate armour.
If implemented for non-player armies as well, you could simulate difference in wealth/equipment etc. - your soldiers might be, on average, way better trained than the enemy, but he can afford to provide heavy equipment to most of his units, while your side has trouble providing it's best soldiers with anything usable (this could even change dynamically - disrupting the supply lines would reduce the number of good kits, if you're somehow improve the supply situation of your side (defend caravans, raid supply depots, make a deal with a a faction/whatever to support you) the units of your side's armies would field equipment, etc.).
Though this would probably fit better to other scenarios (supply depots...).

The problem, of course, that it would be a whole lot of work (if even possible, using the M&B engine) either way, for what most would probably consider only minor game play improvements... but I guess there is no harm in throwing the idea out there, right?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 26, 2008, 10:22:29 pm
We were building something similar to this for "Cult of the Big Lizard" (when Fisheye got busy and the project got put on indefinite hold).  The plan was for troops to only upgrade to more experienced versions of the same thing.  Then they could only be upgraded additionally through conversation, buying them new equipment at the merchants.  In turn, your own troops who were killed would then contribute to the loot on the field, so you could recycle some of the cost by selling (or taking for yourself) any of their used gear.

That was Fisheye's code ... might be able to ask him about it.

I wish we would have been able to finish CBL - it was planned to be a real showcase of what could be done with this sort of thing, which other mods could then replicate (or borrow directly from the contributors).  But too many of the team got busy and couldn't get back to it.

---------------------

The "kits" thing, however, will go badly.  That was tried on a version of Holy War, and it just became very convoluted and arbitrary very quickly.  Not a good way to go.  Good idea, bad plan.

Also, to make the above code work, the loot really needs to be 100% of what was on the field.  You spend a lot of time hauling off loot.  The current levels are a little low, even the way it is currently set up... (OK, so maybe a LOT low.)  But if you have to pay to rearm your troops, cash flow becomes a BIG issue.


Still, it's worth considering.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on March 26, 2008, 10:55:18 pm
I think fisheye had at least some of that implemented in Band of Warriors. There are ranger troops that you can talk to and change their gear. As they level up you can give them better gear. You don't pay for the gear currently, but that can be changed easily.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 26, 2008, 11:09:16 pm
I think fisheye had at least some of that implemented in Band of Warriors. There are ranger troops that you can talk to and change their gear. As they level up you can give them better gear. You don't pay for the gear currently, but that can be changed easily.

Yeah, the idea didn't just come from nowhere ... but we had a very thoroughly planned out and completely integrated version planned for CBL, complete with all troop trees.  It was a much bigger production, and much more uniformly applied standard.  That's the only way to really make something like that look good ... to completely integrate it, thoroughly and uniformly throughout the mod.

Which is a LOT of work.  A LOT of work.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Gloranor on March 26, 2008, 11:21:06 pm
Only read about the Cult of the Big Lizard here and there - sounded very interesting.

--

Yeah, kits probably would become very arbitrary very quickly - though in the case of ONR, it's probably better than in most other cases(as the equipment seems to progress more or less the same way across the various branches of the unit tree).

Hm, instead of all friendly units that are killed contributing to the loot, maybe there should be a (large?) chance that you recover their equipment set intact (like a kit, just unit-specific). You could then upgrade another unit to replace the dead one at a greatly reduced price (you only have to pay for a few minor repairs), which would consume the set. Of course, there would also a be chance that at least a part of it is unusable, in which case parts of the equipment would enter the normal loot. (You could also sell the equipment set (if you don't want to replace the unit by exactly the same type of unit) and use that money to upgrade to a different unit).
That would lessen the financial strain of rearming your troops (though initially arming would still be a huge expense, so we'd still need a bit more realistic level of loot (which I wouldn't necessarily consider a bad thing)).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 26, 2008, 11:39:38 pm
Too confusing.  Too arbitrary.  Plus, what kind of inventory item is "enough weapons, armor, horses, and such to equip a soldier"?  That's not the kind of thing you can just carry around in your pocket.

-------------------

CBL was developed over in "the mod of mods" thread under "requests and suggestions" ... it was intended to be a new way to do mods, with an open team structure and no particular "leader" - thereby letting multiple people who would normally be leads on their own mods put their heads together.  In that respect, it did well - it assembled one of the finest teams in the history of computer software.  However, first was the setback that M&B 890 was unstable, and then some of the all-star team got busy and couldn't pursue it (always a risk on hobby game mods). 

Now it is left on indefinite hold, until enough people who know what they're doing care to pick it up.  Wouldn't really take much ... pretty much all the original team are still around here.  A few new people wouldn't hurt.  But it was a project for experienced modders ... so the pool of people who could help is rather limited.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Rymac on March 27, 2008, 09:53:23 pm
I would love to see battle size modifier in the next version, peace
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on March 27, 2008, 10:30:15 pm
I would love to see battle size modifier in the next version, peace

Yeah, that would be nice.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on March 28, 2008, 05:35:30 am
I'm not sure the battle size modifier is a mod necessarily or a change to one of the engine's "system" files. Battle size certainly not something I can mod using the Module System. You're better off asking the guy who wrote it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Rymac on March 29, 2008, 02:12:04 pm
I'm not sure the battle size modifier is a mod necessarily or a change to one of the engine's "system" files. Battle size certainly not something I can mod using the Module System. You're better off asking the guy who wrote it.


yeah thats true I just tried Battle size modifier with onin and it worked
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on March 29, 2008, 03:17:06 pm
It would be purely cosmetic, but is there a way to incorperate a computer system time clock in the user interface?  Maybe there's a minor mod out there that I'm not aware of or something.

Also, has a way to differentiate between factions for your units been discussed?  It'd be great to be able to view it from the Party menu rather than having to check on the battlefield.  Even if you do check on the battlefield, and want to take them out of your party, you still have to hope you guess right.  I know I saw this talked about in a thread someplace, but I'm not sure where it's at.  Forgive me if this has been answered =D.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 29, 2008, 05:51:09 pm
Actually, we were eventually hoping for a dialog option with the merchants or somebody where you could trade in colors you don't like for colors you do.... thereby eliminating the "wrong faction" troops by making them the right faction.

But that's still on the to-do list, unless Fujiwara got back to it and didn't tell me.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on April 02, 2008, 12:25:18 pm
Update: The map is finished, for now, and I think it looks much better. Mt. Hiei is now of the more Native style, rather than a lump of rock. Bridges have been added. I foudn out how Native does the nifty arched bridges: they are icons sitting on top of three faces textured as 'ford'. The icons are designed so that you never see the faces beneath. It looks like someone took the time to import the map into Blender or something, because they played some tricks with the mesh, and several of the verts are not fully connected with the mesh (open the Native map in the MapEditor, move the bridges, and you'll see what I mean). Not wanting to go to all that trouble, I made a flat bridge that extends below the plane of the faces on which it sits, to give the same effect.

The first of the merchant quests is working, the other one not quite yet. All the graphics work looks great so far; the blades shine but done have some mirror polish on them.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on April 02, 2008, 09:17:12 pm
Update: The map is finished, for now, and I think it looks much better.

Great! So can we expect a new release soon? :green:

The first of the merchant quests is working, the other one not quite yet. All the graphics work looks great so far; the blades shine but done have some mirror polish on them.

What can I expect from the merchant quest? Deliver goods to another town?
So the blades shine but don't have a mirror polish... right? ???
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 02, 2008, 10:24:54 pm
Yes, the blades have a strong glint of polished steel, but not that cheezy silver-aluminum mirror look.

DX9 shaders required.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on April 03, 2008, 06:55:56 am
Just a thought, an observation I've had.  Would it be possible to give Kuro (the named unit you get from Iga) 1 point in horse riding?  She's the only one I have that isn't able to ride a horse, and because of that, might never get the chance to level up so i can put a point there.  I use all cavalry units, so most stuff is dead by the time she brings up the rear.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on April 03, 2008, 12:42:23 pm
What can I expect from the merchant quest? Deliver goods to another town?

That's one; there are some combat missions (the za use there own 'police' forces to maintain open trade routes), some negotiation missions (open new trade routes, open trading posts), other police actions (punish other offending merchants for encroaching on your za's turf).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on April 03, 2008, 01:14:57 pm
What can I expect from the merchant quest? Deliver goods to another town?

That's one; there are some combat missions (the za use there own 'police' forces to maintain open trade routes), some negotiation missions (open new trade routes, open trading posts), other police actions (punish other offending merchants for encroaching on your za's turf).

Cool, sounds interesting.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on April 04, 2008, 06:49:54 pm
It would be cool if some tachi had a shirisaya (bottom scabbard).
It's a fur cover for protecting the lacquered scabbard of a tachi, you often see them on woodblock prints, they would look great on umamawari, taisho and of course on the player character.
Shirisaya were often made of made of bear fur, and yak was common too, tiger fur is rare but also the most desireable and should be reserved for the highest ranks.

And now some pictures...

A fox fur shirisaya:
(http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/images1/2-1shirisaya_cropped.jpg)

A yak fur shirisaya:
(http://aammee0807.hp.infoseek.co.jp/shirisaya.jpg)

A woodblock print:  http://www.sliceofjapan.com/bowsamurai1.jpg (http://www.sliceofjapan.com/bowsamurai1.jpg)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 04, 2008, 07:09:31 pm
Um ... tough to model in the game ... but I may wrap some of my own blades like that.

Really, fur is hard to make look right in M&B.  Especially suspended out in mid-air like wrapped around a sword scabbard.  But if you can find a good example that I can work from, or somebody who knows enough about bump-mapping to make it work ...
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on April 04, 2008, 07:26:35 pm
Um ... tough to model in the game ... but I may wrap some of my own blades like that.

Really, fur is hard to make look right in M&B.  Especially suspended out in mid-air like wrapped around a sword scabbard.  But if you can find a good example that I can work from, or somebody who knows enough about bump-mapping to make it work ...

Yeah, it would be a bit tough to model, although that depends on how good you want it to look.
You could try to find a good bump mapping tutorial on the internet, there are a lot of them.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on April 05, 2008, 02:19:34 pm
did you guys ever hear of this thing  :green: a Samurai conch trumpet  :P they used to use it to give orders  when to attack  listen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Np613WrNvk
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on April 05, 2008, 06:11:08 pm
some more info  :green: Musical instruments played an important part in early Japanese warfare. On the battlefield a wide range of audible as well as visible signs were used, the most significant of which was the taiko, a large war-drum. Another instrument featuring in warfare was the horagai which was a conch-shell trumpet. The trumpet was sounded to tell the warriors to put their battle plan into action and could be heard up to 6 miles away! When the taiko was heard on the battlefield the Samurai soldiers knew they had to regroup. In ancient rural Japan the village boundaries were not only decided by geography, but also by the farthest distance from which the taiko could be heard.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on April 05, 2008, 06:54:00 pm
did you guys ever hear of this thing  :green: a Samurai conch trumpet  :P they used to use it to give orders  when to attack  listen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Np613WrNvk

Yeah, it's called a horagai, or jinkai.
It would be nice to have a horagai in the game along with some other items like the saihai (command baton).
When placed in the inventory of the player, such an item could give you a bonus point in command, or whatever seems appropriate for the item that's put in-game.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on April 05, 2008, 07:56:08 pm
yeah i like to  sound the trumpet  :green: so my men regroup  :D that be cool  or sound it to attack  :P also a A gunsen (war-fan),  http://www.armourarchive.org/way_of_japanese_warrior/
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 05, 2008, 08:25:37 pm
Well, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, command and control in M&B is always about the same degree of effective.  We really can't change it.

That makes a lot of neat-sounding trinkets non-useful.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on April 05, 2008, 08:48:35 pm
I have seen such items in another mod, they were very usefull.
They should not be hand held items in a battle, they should just be in your inventory along with all of your loot and food.
So it would be like a book that will give you +1 intelligence or +1 surgery skill.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on April 05, 2008, 10:12:05 pm
Or perhaps some time of drum or horn can give you +1 tactics skill.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on April 09, 2008, 07:33:06 pm
There is now a pretty robust formation script released in the taleworlds mod dev forum: http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,34685.0.html

Hardcode commented that it works great and will be incorporating it into BOW:X. I think it's pretty much a no-brainer that this should be added to ONR ASAP. It's just copy and paste into 2 files. Easy as pie.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on April 17, 2008, 02:08:59 am
there a nice link here  :green: http://www.arco-iris.com/George/nihonto.htm   arrow   heads  http://www.arco-iris.com/George/yanone.htm
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on April 17, 2008, 06:50:13 am
I was thinking the other day, is there a way to display a message telling you what type of weather is going on?  I realize you can get a feel for it by talking to one of your units and it will show the weather in the background.  I just know it's nasty trying to fight a patrol of 50 with 6 people in fog.  And a message, like update ones in vanilla, or the ones telling you what season it is in ONR, would be helpful.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 17, 2008, 07:00:19 am
Concur ... a little weather icon in the corner would be a great help.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on April 17, 2008, 11:38:15 am
http://wiki.streetofeyes.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

I found this over in the Stormymod section.  Has putting up an ONR entry there ever been discussed?  It doesn't have a lot of activity right now, but that could change when more entries get put there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on April 18, 2008, 11:15:32 pm
Honestly, between running this mod and running this board, I don't have the time to maintain a wiki
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on April 19, 2008, 02:27:58 pm
Gotcha, just thought I'd throw that out there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Yoshitsune on April 20, 2008, 12:32:51 pm
Not sure if this is the appropriate place as I think the discussion about castles and architecture became scattered across several threads but I've just got hold of Stephen Turnbull's new title "Japanese Castles AD 250-1540"


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LlFLgd0dL._SS500_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fortress-74-Japanese-Castles-250-1540/dp/1846032539

Doesn't have any specific artwork/photos dedicated to the Onin War and seems to jump from the 14th Century War Between the Courts to the author's comfort zone in the 16th Century (Ichijodani fortress town of 1520). However the text mentions how the Onin War;

"...was a war fought on the streets of Kyoto that spread to the provinces, where opportunistic samurai leaders set up bases for themselves in defensible locations, usually mountaintops. These yamashiro (mountain castles) provided look-out posts and "last-stand" refuges on neighbouring peaks. In addition to mountaintop stockade castles, the other characteristic defended structure to be found at this time was the fortified mansion or yashiki. They ranged from simple structures to elaborate complexes built along river valleys. These princely locations had fortified gatehouses and watchtowers."

The implication being that the wooden forts of the time differed little from those of the preceding centuries. Must say I mainly love this book for the all the descriptive and graphic content on the Nara, Heian and Kamakura (and even the Yayoi) period fortifications, much of it new to me.



Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on April 20, 2008, 04:02:56 pm
Oh! Post some pictures please! :green:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on April 20, 2008, 09:35:50 pm
any pictures of the 14thC stuff, please post. That's the sort of stuff I've been looking for.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Sibilance on April 21, 2008, 03:17:17 am
1. There's some fantastic clothing in this mod, so it's a real bummer that all of the townspeople are identically dressed. They're all just eye candy anyway; let's make them FAAAABULOUS! :green:

2. To go with that list of Japanese weapons, can we get a list of sellable goods for the merchant types? A walkthrough on the shoen system would be fantastic as well.

3. Why is the "Bonus against shields" modifier on the axes if there won't be shields in Onin no Ran?

4. Are the horse prices historical? Is there any data on the subject? I'm just a little bit perplexed by comparing the price of the lower-tier horses to basic weaponry. Not to question the knowledge of the Onin period sages running the show, though ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on April 21, 2008, 03:26:55 am
Not sure if this is the appropriate place as I think the discussion about castles and architecture became scattered across several threads but I've just got hold of Stephen Turnbull's new title "Japanese Castles AD 250-1540"


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LlFLgd0dL._SS500_.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fortress-74-Japanese-Castles-250-1540/dp/1846032539

Doesn't have any specific artwork/photos dedicated to the Onin War and seems to jump from the 14th Century War Between the Courts to the author's comfort zone in the 16th Century (Ichijodani fortress town of 1520). However the text mentions how the Onin War;

"...was a war fought on the streets of Kyoto that spread to the provinces, where opportunistic samurai leaders set up bases for themselves in defensible locations, usually mountaintops. These yamashiro (mountain castles) provided look-out posts and "last-stand" refuges on neighbouring peaks. In addition to mountaintop stockade castles, the other characteristic defended structure to be found at this time was the fortified mansion or yashiki. They ranged from simple structures to elaborate complexes built along river valleys. These princely locations had fortified gatehouses and watchtowers."

The implication being that the wooden forts of the time differed little from those of the preceding centuries. Must say I mainly love this book for the all the descriptive and graphic content on the Nara, Heian and Kamakura (and even the Yayoi) period fortifications, much of it new to me.




wow yes post some pictures  please   :green: :D :P
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 21, 2008, 03:40:13 am
1. There's some fantastic clothing in this mod, so it's a real bummer that all of the townspeople are identically dressed. They're all just eye candy anyway; let's make them FAAAABULOUS! :green:

2. To go with that list of Japanese weapons, can we get a list of sellable goods for the merchant types? A walkthrough on the shoen system would be fantastic as well.

3. Why is the "Bonus against shields" modifier on the axes if there won't be shields in Onin no Ran?

4. Are the horse prices historical? Is there any data on the subject? I'm just a little bit perplexed by comparing the price of the lower-tier horses to basic weaponry. Not to question the knowledge of the Onin period sages running the show, though ;)


The walkers in the town are a new addition ... now that the code has been tested, it can be tweaked further in future versions.

In response to #3 there, 1. the bonus is there because we didn't bother to remove it, 2. there might eventually be some shields.  Korean/Mongol gear used shields, as did Okinawa (theirs were made of sea turtle shells), plus there were some larger pavise in use for attacking against castle walls.  Any or all of these might eventually make it into the game.  And 3. It doesn't hurt anything, so who cares?

As for #4, we tried to get the horse prices right.  The armored horse price is based on good data.  But generally speaking, if I read the tone of your question right, horses were not all that expensive in Japan.  Those little mountain ponies could even be found wild there ... and even peasants often had horses (to pull plows or whatever, or just breeding for resale).  Iron, on the other hand, was often imported, or at least had to be shipped over large distances from Japan's relatively few iron mines, which greatly increased the cost of anything made of metal.  Just supply and demand.


I'm no help on question 2, there, about the economy ... I was rather wondering how the shoen system works, myself.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Yoshitsune on April 21, 2008, 01:26:06 pm
First one shows an assault on Akasaka fort in 1333. Kusunoki had a false outer wall erected which was allowed to collapse as the attackers tried to climb over. The simple archery tower is of a type used for centuries with the distinctive sides that sloped outwards so the occupants could lean over and fire or hurl rocks downwards.

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/782/akasakamd4.jpg)

Next is a relief picture from a museum in Kobe showing Chihaya fort - another yamashiro defended by Kusuniki Masashige. Note the loopholes from which rocks are suspended from ropes. Cutting the ropes would release them onto attackers.

(http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/8485/chihayadl1.jpg)

A reconstructed tower gatehouse from the Kamakura era with the characteristic outward sloping walls on the tower. Again the loopholes for suspended rocks or archery can be seen and this feature would seem to distinguish it from earlier designs.

(http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6725/kamakuragateyw1.jpg)


Last picture is from a different book - "An Illustrated History Of Japan" by Shigeo Nishimura. It's a picture book apparently aimed at "younger readers" and has some nice artists impressions like this one of fighting in the streets of Kyoto around the time of the Onin War.


(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5469/kyotofightcr3.jpg)





Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on April 21, 2008, 01:59:20 pm

2. To go with that list of Japanese weapons, can we get a list of sellable goods for the merchant types? A walkthrough on the shoen system would be fantastic as well.


Probably need to get the system in a workable fashion before a walkthrough can be developed for it really.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on April 21, 2008, 02:27:00 pm
Yoshitsune those pictures are great, they could be helpful as the castle styles of the Kamakura jidai would be very similar (if not  the same) as the Onin jidai yamashiro.

Thanks for posting them, I appreciate it :D

EDIT: And look at the first picture, those guys are equipped with hand held shields :o you don't see that very often.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on April 22, 2008, 05:48:05 am
jesus they  are Great  pictures  :green: 8)  i love the  tower with the  Arrow boards in  Akasaka fort    :P  Great Yoshitsune
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Yoshitsune on April 23, 2008, 01:05:04 pm
Yoshitsune those pictures are great, they could be helpful as the castle styles of the Kamakura jidai would be very similar (if not  the same) as the Onin jidai yamashiro.

Thanks for posting them, I appreciate it :D

EDIT: And look at the first picture, those guys are equipped with hand held shields :o you don't see that very often.

Yes the shields are unusual! The main source for the siege of Akasaka must be the Taiheiki chronicle (translation by Helen C McCullough) which mentions "shields" used by the attackers but I took this to mean the common heavy mantlets/pavises being carried by the supporting post.

Extracts from the Taiheiki:

"..this was a stronghold of hasty devising! The ditch was not a proper ditch and there was but a single wooden wall plastered over with mud. Likewise in size the castle was not more than one hundred or two hundred yards around with but twenty or thirty towers within made ready in haste..." (20 or 30 seems  a lot to me but apparently not! - unless it is typical exaggeration of the time)

following two failed assaults including the "false wall" episode:
"At last the attackers spoke among themselves, saying; 'Previously we attacked in the fierceness of our valour, not carrying shields or preparing weapons of assault, wherefore we suffered unforeseen injury. Let us go against them now with a different method.'
All commanded the making of shields with toughened hide on their faces such as might not be smashed through easily and with these upheld they went against the castle once more....All went down into the water of the ditch, laid hold of the wall with grapnels and pulled at it. But when the wall was about to fall those within the castle took ladles with handles ten or twenty feet long, dipped up boiling water, and poured it onto them..."

Perhaps smaller hand-held shields were improvised by cutting up archery mantlets?


Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Fisheye on April 23, 2008, 09:08:12 pm
Sexy pictures, very nice.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: doorknobdeity on April 23, 2008, 11:19:30 pm
Would it be fitting to add in "wicker shields" or something, very weak shields good for two or three hits at best?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 24, 2008, 12:06:09 am
Would it be fitting to add in "wicker shields" or something, very weak shields good for two or three hits at best?

The shields in reference there were probably large pavise ... note that it was listed as "not having shields or siege engines", as if these two concepts were similar.  The fact that they were made on-site also suggests that they were not entirely man-portable.  (One man might have been carrying such a shield and a couple more under cover behind it... that was apparently a common config for Japanese pavise.)  The fact that these things were only intended for use against missile fire from the walls would support this thesis, since smallish shields don't make for very good cover that way.

The Korean and Mongol troops of the period used shields similar to European ones, as did China.  Okinawa used turtle-shell shields, but purely as peasant weapons.  Wicker was used in some parts of India, as well as Malaysia and some other parts of southeast Asia, but I've never heard of it being used in Japan.  (Malaysia, Vietnam, and that area also used bamboo and tree bark for body armors at various times ... wicker wasn't totally out of their normal military thinking, i.e. lightweight preferred over sturdy.)  Japan most certainly knew about all of these (heck, they had locked horns with the Mongols before), but still generally chose not to use them except for pavise during wall assaults.  As for why not ... that's complicated.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on April 24, 2008, 06:12:38 pm
Wicker was used in some parts of India, as well as Malaysia and some other parts of southeast Asia, but I've never heard of it being used in Japan. 

Wicker was used  a lot in Japan, for example: plastered walls (bamboo), quivers (bamboo/rattan/rushes), hats (rushes/reeds/bamboo), bows (rattan), etc.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 24, 2008, 06:28:28 pm
Wicker was used in some parts of India, as well as Malaysia and some other parts of southeast Asia, but I've never heard of it being used in Japan. 

Wicker was used  a lot in Japan, for example: plastered walls (bamboo), quivers (bamboo/rattan/rushes), hats (rushes/reeds/bamboo), bows (rattan), etc.

I didn't mean for construction purposes, baskets or straw hats ... I meant for shields or armor.  India and parts of southeast Asia made shields and sometimes body armor from such, at various times.  (Oddly enough, they were more effective than one might think.)  For example, ritualized whip duels in India used wicker shields for centuries.

Japan had very few examples of armor that were not either iron or leather.  And as far as I can tell, pavise were made of large bundles of bamboo, but large sections just lashed together, not strips of it woven into a wicker mesh.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: doorknobdeity on April 24, 2008, 08:44:54 pm
What about a dedicated troop type with those pavises-- fairly slow speed, armed with shields with great coverage but miserable speed and mediocre durability, and either a one-handed or 1/2 weapon. Such troops wouldn't do well in melee (especially if they have a 1/2 weapon and a shield-- that usually doesn't turn out so good for foot troops), but would be able to reach a fortified archer-infested position (like a fort!) relatively unscathed.

Personally, I think it would fill an important gameplay niche-- the low-tier archerfucker. Cavalry and very heavy infantry are both high-tier and hard to obtain, making ranged foes absolute murder at low levels. Maybe having these pavisemen as a low-tier troop type would take some of the pain out of AI archers without artificially crippling the enemy or boosting the player.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: doorknobdeity on April 24, 2008, 08:49:32 pm
Alternatively, could the siege tower from vanilla be adapted for pavises that aren't wielded personally? Have a fair number of those on the field, which would be pushed by the AI as with the siege towers; while they wouldn't be necessary to enter the fort, as with the tower, it would help the attackers slowly reach the fort without being annihilated.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 24, 2008, 10:14:00 pm
Such ideas are still floating around ... but first, we would have to limit it to wall assaults (since that was not something you could drag around all over the country with you) ... and second, we would need to modify the AI formation script to take advantage of it (like actually having troops take cover behind them).  Those are two pretty serious bites out of an otherwise easy suggestion.

But actually, if work ever resumes on the urban combat/wall assault development, there will need to be all kinds of stuff like that added.  (Ladders, burning logs piled against gates, rocks dropped from walls, you name it.)  It's just going to be a technical nightmare ... and it's going to be Fujiwara's nightmare, because I can't really help much with that kind of thing.  It's going to be a lot of code ... code that will be difficult to test, and could have unexpected results.

But wait until we get that far.  You're getting the cart way ahead of the horse.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on April 25, 2008, 08:03:35 am
Man I'm excited about the walkers in town now.  I can't wait to see what ya'll decide to do with that.  Being able to gather information from the townspeople will be so beneficial to adding in quests and storyline.  Obviously it's just a preliminary introduction to them, so I can't judge it based on what it looks like now (their pathing, the fact that they all look the same, etc).

I'd like to see all sorts of people in all sorts of different outfits.  Obviously you'd have merchants, ronin, kuge and bushi all moving around throughot the cities.  It'd be cool, also, to see different kinds of female models in Kimonos (no idea how hard that is to model/get historically accurate), and I think this was discussed in a thread a long time ago (about goats right?) but different animals too.  They had domesticated dogs and cats in Japan during that era didn't they?  I don't know if the engine really supports it, but seeing a stray cat or dog running around would add quite a bit of realism, in conjunction with everything else.  Also would the engine support children as well?

I know this isn't a priority right now, but I wanted to post it before I forgot about it again.  It's really just about the possibilities I see with the walkers.  Thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 25, 2008, 08:18:48 am
We haven't got custom skeleton support yet.  Hopefully, future versions of BRFEdit will do better.  (An alpha test for the next version of BRFEdit had limited support of such ... it's next thing up on the list there.)  Until we get that, we can't do anything but adult human and standard-size horse or equivalent.  ("Equivalent", like we could do camels or the like ... but Japan didn't import any camels, as far as I know, even though they weren't all that far away from camel country.  But we can't do something of greatly different size or unique animation, like dogs or goats, or deer that sprint off the field just before the fight.)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on April 25, 2008, 08:46:43 am
You could still do Kimono models for women, and whatever they wore as peasants right?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 25, 2008, 09:12:54 am
You could still do Kimono models for women, and whatever they wore as peasants right?

There is one pretty good one, correct period and style, in the game now.  It's used on Haruko, and some of the "village Defender" troops, as well as several female shopkeepers.

Some more colors or other variants are on the to-do list.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Yoshitsune on April 26, 2008, 03:39:38 pm
Here's a picture from Mitsuo Kure's book "Samurai" illustrating the wooden mantlet/pavise type used in Japan from earliest times until the 17th century:

(http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/2632/mantlethm5.jpg)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on April 26, 2008, 09:46:26 pm
Another picture of the pavises the sohei and ikko-ikki used.

(http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/2588/pavisers9.png)

The only thing different from a normal pavise is the sanskrit writing.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 26, 2008, 10:12:31 pm
This might be the solution we were needing on how to make the "camp" scene somewhat fortified.  Replace "camp" with a "dig in" option, where your troops would set up the pavise walls and prepare to be attacked.

They would still be useless on the offense ... since setting up such an emplacement would be a waste of time if your enemy was planning on running anyway.

A lot of technical details would still need to be worked out ... but that can be done.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on April 27, 2008, 09:35:05 pm
I like the pictures, though, again because its Turnbull, I have to take it with a grain of salt. I would tend to agree with the interpretation that the shields in question were of the larger pavise/mantlet type, not the small personal kind depicted (artist license?), based on previous research into this matter.

As far the 'fprtified camp' setup, this would be fairly easy to accomplish, with just some addition of models to a stock scene. The pavises would have to be low enough for the archers to fire over them but at the same time slow down any cavalry enough to make them useful. This will probably take a little experimentation.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 27, 2008, 10:17:56 pm
Not "over" - they need to be offset enough that archers would fire BESIDE them.

If you made them low enough to shoot over (on anything but the side of a steep hill), it would merely let everyone get hit in the face anyway.  Shields that only protect your feet would not really fix the problem.

However, the trick would be to convince the AI to stay behind them, instead of running around like he was trying to get a clearer shot.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on April 28, 2008, 08:58:40 am
Just a note, we will NOT be porting to .950. v1.0 is very close, and this bug hunt is more important.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 28, 2008, 09:09:16 am
Just a note, we will NOT be porting to .950. v1.0 is very close, and this bug hunt is more important.

I figure .950 is just the unstable version of 1.0 ... we probably won't see the module system before .960 anyway.

(I've already posted in the other thread ... there will not be a RCM-Native for the new version until I see the module system ... I refuse to try to build a version using item editors.)

Also, latest version may cause problems for BRFEdit.  (I had trouble.)  We'll see how that works out later.  That could slow us all down a lot, even if and when 1.0 comes out.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on April 29, 2008, 06:20:21 pm
I like the pictures, though, again because its Turnbull, I have to take it with a grain of salt. I would tend to agree with the interpretation that the shields in question were of the larger pavise/mantlet type, not the small personal kind depicted (artist license?), based on previous research into this matter.

As far the 'fprtified camp' setup, this would be fairly easy to accomplish, with just some addition of models to a stock scene. The pavises would have to be low enough for the archers to fire over them but at the same time slow down any cavalry enough to make them useful. This will probably take a little experimentation.

Well, these mantlets/pavises did exist, and it isn't as if Turnbull was the one who painted/drew these pictures ;).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 29, 2008, 07:21:55 pm
I like the pictures, though, again because its Turnbull, I have to take it with a grain of salt. I would tend to agree with the interpretation that the shields in question were of the larger pavise/mantlet type, not the small personal kind depicted (artist license?), based on previous research into this matter.


Well, these mantlets/pavises did exist, and it isn't as if Turnbull was the one who painted/drew these pictures ;).

He was talking about the one with the hand-shields, not the pavise.  That drawing was taken from an illustration in a Turnbull "book".

That guy ... Turnbull ... is a total flake.  Proof of how easy it is to be educated beyond your intelligence.  Stunning how somebody could be an expert on designs of tsuba, but everything he knows about sword combat he learned from D&D games.  Chalk him up along with the "martial arts" guys who think you can catch your opponent's incoming knife hand... solidly in the "disinformation" cabinet, under "D" for "dangerous misconceptions".
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on April 29, 2008, 07:44:47 pm
i found a nice link with some cool pictures click on the gallery on left side  :lol: http://www.sagaofthesamurai.com/
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on April 29, 2008, 10:04:49 pm
I like the pictures, though, again because its Turnbull, I have to take it with a grain of salt. I would tend to agree with the interpretation that the shields in question were of the larger pavise/mantlet type, not the small personal kind depicted (artist license?), based on previous research into this matter.


Well, these mantlets/pavises did exist, and it isn't as if Turnbull was the one who painted/drew these pictures ;).

He was talking about the one with the hand-shields, not the pavise.  That drawing was taken from an illustration in a Turnbull "book".

That guy ... Turnbull ... is a total flake.  Proof of how easy it is to be educated beyond your intelligence.  Stunning how somebody could be an expert on designs of tsuba, but everything he knows about sword combat he learned from D&D games.  Chalk him up along with the "martial arts" guys who think you can catch your opponent's incoming knife hand... solidly in the "disinformation" cabinet, under "D" for "dangerous misconceptions".


Turnbull is an adequate author when it comes to accuracy.  You can still learn a fair bit from reading his works, but make sure it isn't your only source of knowledge.  He is, however, a decent authors for beginners.

Anyway, but hand shields, they were not used during this period.  That would have happened, say, 1200 years beforehand.


@Carlo:  It is indeed a neat site, however it is most likely focusing on the Sengoku Jidai.  I mean, it does have a book about Takeda Shingen on the home page. ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on April 30, 2008, 10:30:43 am
I like the pictures, though, again because its Turnbull, I have to take it with a grain of salt. I would tend to agree with the interpretation that the shields in question were of the larger pavise/mantlet type, not the small personal kind depicted (artist license?), based on previous research into this matter.


Well, these mantlets/pavises did exist, and it isn't as if Turnbull was the one who painted/drew these pictures ;).

He was talking about the one with the hand-shields, not the pavise.  That drawing was taken from an illustration in a Turnbull "book".

That guy ... Turnbull ... is a total flake.  Proof of how easy it is to be educated beyond your intelligence.  Stunning how somebody could be an expert on designs of tsuba, but everything he knows about sword combat he learned from D&D games.  Chalk him up along with the "martial arts" guys who think you can catch your opponent's incoming knife hand... solidly in the "disinformation" cabinet, under "D" for "dangerous misconceptions".


Turnbull is an adequate author when it comes to accuracy.  You can still learn a fair bit from reading his works, but make sure it isn't your only source of knowledge.  He is, however, a decent authors for beginners.

Anyway, but hand shields, they were not used during this period.  That would have happened, say, 1200 years beforehand.


@Carlo:  It is indeed a neat site, however it is most likely focusing on the Sengoku Jidai.  I mean, it does have a book about Takeda Shingen on the home page. ;)
  yes i  know but there is  houses  :)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on May 01, 2008, 08:36:59 am
On main section of the forum, the caption under the ONR main forum, still reads "Latest release: v0.6.2 for M&B v.903 on 03/02/2008. "  Might want to update that =D.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on May 01, 2008, 11:16:06 am
will i be ok if i download the new Mount&Blade Version 0.950  :D
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on May 01, 2008, 11:32:11 am
ONR isn't ported to it, so you won't be able to play ONR, but your head shouldn't explode  - no guarantees though.  I haven't even downloaded it yet as I don't have time to fiddle with that and test ONR at the same time.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on May 01, 2008, 12:29:46 pm
ONR isn't ported to it, so you won't be able to play ONR, but your head shouldn't explode  - no guarantees though.  I haven't even downloaded it yet as I don't have time to fiddle with that and test ONR at the same time.
ok thanks i did not install it yet  ;) so now i wont i just wait as i want to play ONR in 903  :lol:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on May 01, 2008, 12:43:26 pm
You should be able to install it to a different directory and play ONR and the new M&B just fine.  I have .70x (whatever storymod uses), .80x (whatever TLD uses) and .903 for ONR installed all at once in different folders.  You can have multiple instances installed.   
Title: Re: Nobuo's Bug reports for 0.6.3
Post by: nobuo on May 02, 2008, 01:00:29 pm
How many guys did you have? Rank advancement is also based on the number of men in your party.

That will make it really difficult to guess how much fame and men you need to be promoted, many players will never get to have a high rank simply because they don't know what they need to rank up.
Also, if you rank up and need a lot of men and renown for the next rank, then it will take forever to get promoted because you get very little renown (4 or 5 for a Yamana patrol).
It's a bit of a problem ::)

I don't think that's too much of a big deal.   It makes sense, at least historically.  I'm not even remotely knowledgeable about the time period, but I can understand that a bushi would have been rewarded in proportion to the influence he had amongst an army.  What really needs to be laid out for the player is specific numbers.  Migiyoko no banpei = x fame, y units;  Chuu banpei = x fame, y units, etc.  The hard part is I don't know if the ranks have static values, or if it's just a combination of factors that can vary.  I should be able to test it and get a reasonable idea.


If that bug is fixed, then we're talking about getting very small amounts of renown, like 5-10 per battle (you get 25-50 for using the method I described above [thanks Ichimonji for that] depending on what you fight), unless you decide you can tackle everything by yourself, which is extremely difficult with RCM and full damage ( one of the purposes of the mod). 

Yeah, the renown thing really needs to be fixed.
It would be great if the player would actually be able to get some renown when fighting the enemy without help of recruited warriors (getting no renown at all when you just defeated a Yamana patrol on your own is NOT cool).

I don't really think the game should be steered towards being able to kill everything by yourself.  Yeah that's hard, but the purpose of the RCM is to bring things down to earth and take away the whole superhero character.  The game engine doesn't allow that completely, but RCM does a tremendous job.  It's ridiculously difficult (as it should be) to kill a patrol of 50 people by yourself.  I honestly haven't been able to do it consistently.  I've needed to have the hero units to get it done without a lot of stress.  I think the gameplay should be geared more towards having a balance of army size that will still allow you to get sufficient renown.  Of course that's if/when the folks at TW fix the native bug.

If it's not fixed, then really it's not a big deal, unless the upper tier ranks require a pretty substantial army.  I can understand if Fujiwara isn't willing to share a list of that information publicly.  It just makes testing the higher quests harder.  So we'll see.
Title: Re: Nobuo's Bug reports for 0.6.3
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on May 02, 2008, 02:05:04 pm
I don't really think the game should be steered towards being able to kill everything by yourself. 

That's right, it should be steered towards leading HUGE armies instead.
During the Onin jidai, both sides had severall powerfull lords supporting them, together they numbered over 80.000 men on each side, all stationed in Kyoto itself... apparently Ouchi Masahiro had over 20,000 troops to support the Yamana.
Yamana and Hosokawa armies and patrolls should be much larger, that would be great fun :D
Title: Re: Nobuo's Bug reports for 0.6.3
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on May 02, 2008, 02:34:59 pm
I don't think tying promotions to party size is a good idea. The larger your party, the more reknown you need. reknown deteriorates every week, and your party is slower the larger it gets so it's harder to catch enemies to kill for reknown. And of course you have to deal with morale problems that don't get addressed by high reknown.  this is a bad system in my opinion.
Title: Re: Nobuo's Bug reports for 0.6.3
Post by: Kasemacher on May 02, 2008, 03:29:01 pm
I don't really think the game should be steered towards being able to kill everything by yourself. 

That's right, it should be steered towards leading HUGE armies instead.
During the Onin jidai, both sides had severall powerfull lords supporting them, together they numbered over 80.000 men on each side, all stationed in Kyoto itself... apparently Ouchi Masahiro had over 20,000 troops to support the Yamana.
Yamana and Hosokawa armies and patrolls should be much larger, that would be great fun :D


This is a good read here.

Soon troop commanders and men from many parts of the country joined the sixty thousand vassals of imperial and shogunal troops in Kyoto; Hosokawa Katsumoto could count on a total of 161,500 mounted men. According to Onin ki, Yamana Sozen had only 116,000 riders at his disposal, but despite their numerical inferiority, the Yamana men controlled six of the seven approaches to the city.

Fighting between the two clans erupted at dawn on the twenty sixth day of the fifth month (June 27) of 1467, when Hosokawa soldiers
opened fire on Yamana forces. The engagement ended in a minor victory for the Yamana, but a disproportionately large number of houses belonging to both sides were consumed in fires that spread to many parts of the city. As yet, however, the shogunate was not involved, and Yoshimasa’s position was not known. He sent messengers to both sides commanding them to stop the warfare.

But at the same time, he ordered Ise Sadachika to bring his forces to Kyoto, an indication that he feared the fighting would not end
soon. Probably he foresaw that the shogunate would need reinforcements in the event of a major showdown between the Yamana and Hosokawa clans.

Yoshimasa had earlier exiled Sadachika from the capital when he discovered that he had falsely accused Yoshimi of plotting to seize power, but he probably still considered Sadachika as his mentor and hoped that he might save the country from all-out civil war. At first Yoshimasa refused to take sides, but in the sixth month he clarified his position by ordering Yoshimi and Katsumoto to attack the Yamana clan.

Hino Tomiko and her brother, Hino Katsumitsu, who favored the Yamana and opposed Yoshimi, strongly opposed this decision, but Yoshimasa held firm and bestowed on Katsumoto the shogunal banner to fly over his headquarters. Yoshimi, named as commanding general, opened the attack on the Western Army, now stigmatized
as rebels. In a battle fought on the eighth day of the sixth month, the Eastern Army was victorious. Supposing that this victory signified that the Western army had been crushed, Yoshimasa sent a memorandum to its generals urging them to surrender.  Some obeyed and shifted their allegiance to the Eastern Army, and
others withdrew altogether from the fighting. Encouraged by these defections, the Eastern Army attacked the residences of major supporters of the Western Army. Huge fires were started that gutted much of the city.

Advantage in the fighting seemed to be on the side of the Hosokawa, but the Western Army held on, heartened by reports that an army under the command of Ouchi Masahiro would soon arrive in the capital. On the twenty-third day of the eighth month, Masahiro’s army, said to be thirty thousand men strong, occupied
the Toji and the southern part of the city, giving Yamada Sozen’s army superiority at least for the moment. Katsumoto responded by asking both Emperor Go-Tsuchimikado and Retired Emperor Go-Hanazono to move to the Muromachi Palace, the seat of the shogunate. Go-Tsuchimikado took with him the imperial regalia. The Eastern Army could claim to be the emperor’s troops, but the reinforcements had made the Western Army stronger.
Title: Re: Nobuo's Bug reports for 0.6.3
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on May 02, 2008, 04:38:41 pm
Thanks for posting that Kasemacher, I couldn't find any text from the "Onin Ki", so I had to use an inferior source for information.

Interesting how the Onin Ki mentions "116,000 riders" and "161,500 mounted men", because that does not seem to include infantry, if every mounted samurai would bring two or more foot soldiers with them you would get  huge armies :shock:


For in the game it would be great if East and West Kyoto would be half burned (and possibly still burning) battlefields to fight the Yamana or Hosokawa armies on, they would have to be huge siege battles.
North Kyoto would have been completely burned to the ground already, but maybe it would still make a cool place for a couple of huge battles.
Title: Re: Nobuo's Bug reports for 0.6.3
Post by: fujiwara on May 02, 2008, 09:47:51 pm
I don't think tying promotions to party size is a good idea. The larger your party, the more reknown you need. reknown deteriorates every week, and your party is slower the larger it gets so it's harder to catch enemies to kill for reknown. And of course you have to deal with morale problems that don't get addressed by high reknown.  this is a bad system in my opinion.

Nonetheless, this is how the Japanese did things. As bushi increased in rank, they were expected to use their increased stipend from the shogun to provide for their own men. This is how I have chosen to implement that.
Title: Re: Nobuo's Bug reports for 0.6.3
Post by: Ron Losey on May 02, 2008, 10:12:58 pm
I don't think tying promotions to party size is a good idea. The larger your party, the more reknown you need. reknown deteriorates every week, and your party is slower the larger it gets so it's harder to catch enemies to kill for reknown. And of course you have to deal with morale problems that don't get addressed by high reknown.  this is a bad system in my opinion.

Nonetheless, this is how the Japanese did things. As bushi increased in rank, they were expected to use their increased stipend from the shogun to provide for their own men. This is how I have chosen to implement that.

Wait a minute ... that would be the inverse of how it's working.  If increased rank should mean that you are expected to maintain a larger force, then you should get MORE credit for maintaining a larger/stronger force, not less.

The model in question seems to reward you for maintaining a smaller force.  You get more fame credit for fighting with a smaller force, more promotions for winning with a smaller force, and no extra credit for maintaining a larger force.  Something doesn't add up here.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on May 02, 2008, 10:44:19 pm
Exactly, and now that the next patch will fix the renown bug, something needs to be done to compensate or it's going to take a very long time to get anything done.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on May 03, 2008, 08:36:03 am
 :shock:

I had not considered that until you brought it up, but you're right. If you think about it, a person's renown/fame/reputation/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is a function of how many know about you and your accomplishments/abilities/character. The more that know, the more people THEY talk to, and word spreads faster. So it should only make sense that the guy who solos should get not get any renown bonus for slaughtering the bandit hordes, because no one knows about it.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on May 03, 2008, 08:50:37 am
Also, looking for comments on the new loadout for the yari ashigaru. I have removed their thrown weapons and added a selection of the new yari (thanks to Ron). They seem to hold their own very well against bandits on foot and  in small groups can take down mounted bandits fairly quickly. Also made some adjustments to power draw skills for the various archer troops to match the weapons they carry.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on May 03, 2008, 12:46:16 pm
I think the rocks (and probably most of thrown weapons) should be removed from the game.  Peasants throwing rocks at you is just silly when they hardly ever inflict more than 1-2 damage.  Not to mention the range for those weapons are inferior.

I feel like a member of the IDF being attacked by Palestinians with all the rocks that get thrown at me.  ::)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on May 03, 2008, 03:24:40 pm
They may not do much damage to you, but they will stinkin' rock your horse if you just stand there and let them get you.  The thrown weapons are in there so the foot units actually do stuff rather than just chase your horse around.  Plus I remember reading in a thread somewhere on this forum that it was common practice for ground units to throw things at their enemies if they didn't have a ranged weapon.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 03, 2008, 05:44:59 pm
The throwing of rocks (or if they're higher budget, darts and shruiken) is an obligatory part of Japanese combat.  Even samurai infantry opened confrontations with a hail of thrown rocks.  It would not be Japan without them.

Their function wasn't really to kill anybody.  They were just supposed to wound and stun, break up formations and lower morale.  In that role, they did a very good job, and at no real cost ... they did not prevent the melee troops from doing their jobs, as carrying of better ranged weapons would.

That is a critical cultural element of Japan.  The rocks stay.

---------------

On the thing of fame, I was thinking less of the individual reports and more of the shock value.  The whole "he commands a squad of misfits" thing just doesn't make you too famous, where if you are general to an entire division ...

Individual reports would get back anyway ... if bandits and stuff start turning up dead where you were, people will talk.  It's just that "reports say he killed some bandits" doesn't get your name in the history books.  (Heck, I could claim that myself ... it doesn't make me a historical figure, just an armed robbery survivor.)  George Patton, on the other hand, was not really famous for the fact he would shoot you with those ivory-handle revolvers of his, but he was famous for marching the Third Army across Europe.  General Bradley became famous for commanding allied forces in Europe during that war (and doing a better-than-average job of it, all considered), and he seldom even carried a weapon.

Likewise, you show up in town with hundreds of armored troops, and people are going to take notice.  You become famous just because of the size of the force you command.  While the samurai were more likely than their Western counterparts to think that their commanders should be out there soaked in blood with the rest of them, individual accomplishment was still not the deciding factor.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Agent Griff on May 09, 2008, 01:42:23 pm
I like the way it's handled in TLD. You get renown points (or Influence, as they have it implemented) based on what you accomplish on the battlefield, and there is never a set amount of influence you can receive, like there currently is in Native. I mean, the boring part is that in Native all battles have fixed renown values that are flashed at the beginning and ends of the battle. That leaves little ambition to actually strive to accomplish as much as you can, since you know what you'll be winning anyway.

In TLD on the other hand, you can win a lot of influence even if you have a huge army with you, based on what you do. The influence varies (I get about 8 influence if I do really well in a battle, this is with RCM included) but it still makes the player try to be as good as he can be, in order to get his prowess noted.

More about Onin No Ran, however. I love the atmosphere of the mod a lot, I like the dojos and retaining troops from your superior (or providing them as a kuge) but to be honest, the actual encounters that you can have leave a lot to be desired. I mean, when I picture the Onin war, I imagine armies of combined Samurai and Ashigaru fighting it out in Japan's rough terrain. The units are there, so are the items of armour and weapons and horses but the actual encounters you can have are pretty lacklustre. I mean, there are hardly any big groups of organized enemies (as in well equipped Samurai and Ashigaru) and only a limited numbers of patrols, that are slightly more acceptable but still, the majority of encounters the player is going to have is with bandits or river pirates. And bandits, however well equipped and numerous they may be, still don't rise up to the awe-inspiring presence of an enemy Samurai on the field, all decked out in O-Yoroi armour or O-Sode Do-Maru or whatever other armour wealthy Bushi can afford.

To be honest, I think Onin No Ran is kind of...well not in line with the times. To call it "outdated" would be exaggerated, but compared to other mods out there, and even Native, it still has a kind of "country bumpkin far from war" feel to it. Bandits are second-rate enemies in Native, but Onin No Ran is still pretty much constructed around the older versions of Native. Even the tavern recruiting is pretty outdated, though I don't really mind it to be honest since there's not that much you can recruit in a tavern, only Ronin and peasants. Currently, in Native and most mods released for .903, the brunt of the combat is built around faction to faction combat, not player against miscellaneous forms of felony. And I don't think that is too reflected in Onin No Ran. There should be more actual clashes between the Yamana and Hosokawa, and more armies being led by actual NPC heroes that oppose the player and want to claim his head and present it to the enemy Daymio.

From the quote that Ichimonji gave, I feel that this mod could have a much more epic feel, a feel given by the fact that you're ultimately fighting to decide Japan's future. The current feel is that you're fighting to stomp out crime among the commons and fetch noblemen whatever they might need (like paintings or poetry or whatever). The mod currently has everything going for it. It has RCM, which ensures fights that are fun exactly because they are realistic, detailed items with exact names from which you could write an essay and a map of Japan that has a lot of villages and cities and a lot of space for two factions to fight a war of dominion over the Emperor. Why not bring it to the spot it deserves? No mod is as historically detailed as Onin No Ran, and its RCM version is the pure one, and the best documented one. I think this mod could rise to new heights, with clever use of elements that are already extant, but not being exploited to the fullest, like the epic possibilities of the battle for Kyoto.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on May 09, 2008, 02:16:52 pm
I think all of what you described is in the process of being created.  Since it's really only Fujiwara and Ron Losey working on it right now (probably with some contributions from people I'm not aware of too) it's not going at a lightning speed.  This most recent release was really a bug release, which a lot of those have been addressed - at least for the Bushi line - which I have tested quite a bit.  I'm not sure what all has been tested for the Kuge/Ronin/Merchant lines as I have only done a very small amount of testing in those areas.

Heroes, banners, factional combat, more encounters, more leaning towards the decision of Japan's fate, I'm almost positive that all of that is being developed.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Agent Griff on May 09, 2008, 02:23:58 pm
Then I'm a happy camper. I realize how hard it must be to be in Fujiwara's shoes right now. I mean, he's been handling this project more or less by himself for quite some time now. Not to mention Ron and his ongoing process of upgrading the RCM.

I've been playing the Ronin "bandit exterminator" quest and, apart from a few repetitive quests (three capture bandit quests in a row) I saw no problems with it. Of course, there were some quests were the names of either people or places are omitted, but I they weren't related to the ronin quest-line.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 09, 2008, 06:46:33 pm
Confirm that part ... lots of stuff is in the current or future plans phase, but what is currently in the game is just the basics.  Urban combat, for villages and forts and such, is in the non-specific planning phase.  More diplomacy - in planning.  More combat in general ... well, the Onin War wasn't exactly World War I - it was an internal skirmish between some self-important people in the leadership, and to be honest, not really very "epic" for most of the duration of the war.  Most of the fighting was just the leadership's personal thugs killing each other while displaced people joined bandit gangs in order to survive... see Somalia for a modern example (except without the tribal ethnic genocide ... Japanese peasants were encouraged to change sides, although not too many did).  However, with the addition of attack and defense of settlements, there should be more going on in future versions.

So yeah, well, this is all pretty much nothing new.  It's all been said multiple times before.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Kasemacher on May 09, 2008, 07:34:07 pm
The thing is that it's not as if Fujiwara and Ron aren't ambitious.  It's just that it's the two of them doing virtually all the work.  I've finished the banners and created the module_troops file for the named generals.  Once OnR start uses that system, you will see a lot more Yamana-Hosokawa clashes.  I would like to become skilled at modeling buildings and other environments so we can recreate believable street battles.  It would be nice if you actually spawned in a part of Kyoto when you engaged an enemy nearby. :P

There are a lot of plans for this mod, but not enough manpower to crank out everything at full speed.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on May 09, 2008, 09:09:46 pm
Griff is right...much of what Onin no Ran currently is held over from .751 and .808, and we were doing some cutting edge stuff then. A great number of the new features delivered with .903 have yet to be implemented (like real town capturing, better urban battles, banners, books, etc). It's just a slow process, even if it is your only hobby.  8) That's why I'm eager to get all the bugs ironed out with what currently exists, so that I have a clean base on which to build even cooler stuff.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: walskal on June 06, 2008, 10:56:25 am
when attacking with a sharp metal weapon such as katana, and the npc blocks with a club or another wooden weapon, i think those weapons should take damage like a shield and shatter.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 06, 2008, 12:04:57 pm
That would be an engine issue, and not possible to mod.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: sdog on June 15, 2008, 10:31:10 am
i have the impression that many of the people that want wooden weapons to break when blocking a sword or axe never chopped wood.  If you hit wood normal to the fibre, and it is supported well, it will take most of the energy by elastic deformation. It takes a lot of force to break even bad wood. As weapons are made of very strong and fine would, i doubt you could hack with a very good axe through one lying on a block. Most likely you'll even get a nasty strain in you forward arms triceps, when the axe jumps back. If the wooden weapon is supported by someone wielding it, the force will be absorbed by the wielder mostly.

My first sentence could backfire of course, if someone knowledgeable tells me, it's not difficult at all, you just suck at chopping wood...
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 15, 2008, 06:03:46 pm
Yeah, well, you would really have to hammer something to break it.  Only smaller-diameter wood poles would be affected at all, and then they would take more than most people think.  However, if you used a relatively light weapon to repeatedly block blows from steel blades, I suppose there is a chance of it cracking.

Still, as previously stated, the point is irrelevant, since we can't do it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 19, 2008, 03:26:11 am
Is it possible to make kengo challenge fights harder?

I found beating all 8 schools way too easy.
I say if a kengo supposed to be a great martial master - let him get at least some beating.

If you ask me, i'll suggest to make all melee fights indoors.
In the field it's way too easy to stay "outside" of opponents, making to difference if there are three of them or only one. you always can outmaneuver them fighting only one at a time.
(and it's really easy)

For ranged fights only sane idea i have - it's to lower ammount of projectiles you have.
One shot - one kill. If you missed - well you always have your fists :-))

You don't have to be a genius to stand behind a tree with a bow ready waiting for the opponents to come closed for a good headshot, or just run out of arrows (aye - it's "legal cheating")

Also maybe it is possible to make waves different and progressively stronger.
I mean, you can give to the first let's say bokken, katana to the secon and no dachi to the last, and then repeat it with a waves of trios.

It will become a pretty ruthless test of skills espesially in a small dojo room.

What would you think about this idea?

Today with a help in finding dojos i have completed all the schools
It this 48 fights i actually recieved 2 blows. and it was mostly by an accident.
So i'd really really would love to get a much harder time there.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 19, 2008, 04:10:37 am
Actually, there are plans to do a LOT more with the dojo training sequence.  The current ones are sort of a placeholder until the plans and details are finalized.

For the final version, we're hoping for a bunch of jump-through-the-hoops stuff where the sensei starts you out on practice dummies or some other "wax-on, wax-off" kind of drill, and before you're done, you're running through an obstacle course unarmed while guys shoot arrows at you, or having a sword fight while balanced on a log 30 feet in the air, or some such nonsense.  The idea was not just to test the player, but to actually take some time explaining Japanese training traditions, the difficulty of real combat, and other lessons from real life and history.  The dojo is eventually to be our studio for painting the entire Japanese warrior culture - the "immersion" part of the game.

That has been discussed a couple of times before, although I don't remember exactly where.

But that's all FAR beyond where we are right now.  So for now, just live with the placeholders.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on June 19, 2008, 07:07:09 am
Are you playing it with full damage?  It is substantially more difficult to win with full damage on. 
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 19, 2008, 07:16:49 am
Are you playing it with full damage?  It is substantially more difficult to win with full damage on. 

A couple of them are pretty rough on full damage ... particularly the one where you get a stick and have to fight off several guys with practice naginata.  I got hit a few times with the bokken too.

But the archery tests, and the thrown weapons at Iga ... I did all three of them and never got hit.  I mean, never even came close.

Still, there are plans to go much further with that, eventually.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 19, 2008, 08:45:13 am
Are you playing it with full damage?  It is substantially more difficult to win with full damage on. 

well it really doesn't matter what damage is choosen if you don't get hit.
And that's what happend in dojo


Generally i play with 1/2, but it's mostly because of "battle lags"
When you charge the enemy and start killing them you normally trigger reinforcements spawn.
And for me - game freezes for 1-2 sec, with full damage there is a very good chance not to survive this :-) Accornid to a murfy's law some lancer will denifitely hit you in the exact same moment
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 19, 2008, 09:25:44 am
RCM standard in general combat does not work with less than full damage.  It renders your armor quite unstoppable.  It is, for practical purposes, a complete invulnerability cheat.

That should be listed in the mod intro somewhere, for everyone who has not heard this before.

---------------

And the game freeze is a total freeze, not a graphics lag ... the action is stopped until it clears.  If your system has a lot of lag when new units spawn, you just have to pay attention.  (I know - I have the same 2-second hang every time 20 new enemies spawn.)

If you're in a spot where an enemy lancer can get to you within half a second or so, you're toast anyway ... that's what is known as a tactical mistake.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 19, 2008, 10:28:47 am
RCM standard in general combat does not work with less than full damage.  It renders your armor quite unstoppable.  It is, for practical purposes, a complete invulnerability cheat.

That should be listed in the mod intro somewhere, for everyone who has not heard this before.

---------------

And the game freeze is a total freeze, not a graphics lag ... the action is stopped until it clears.  If your system has a lot of lag when new units spawn, you just have to pay attention.  (I know - I have the same 2-second hang every time 20 new enemies spawn.)

If you're in a spot where an enemy lancer can get to you within half a second or so, you're toast anyway ... that's what is known as a tactical mistake.


I have to disagree

I tend to play as a light armored samurai,  i use mostly a bow and a tachi for some backup.
So my armor rating is pretty low :-))
Also i never use heavy horses for myself.
So generally i'm running away shooting back bow. and under normal conditions i just headshot the guys on my tail, but after a lag you need a split of a second to recover controls, and generally - it's enought for a lancer on your six to score a hit :-)
You have to undestand - not every pesrson is a "heavy armor freak" i use O-haraate with hapurri.
I like to run fast and be able to fight on the ground, wich i do alot. Hopefully with some practise with Onin no ran - i'll go back to full damage model (though i do expect to change horses a lot in this case)

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: nobuo on June 19, 2008, 01:30:22 pm
Play with full damage on and you'll understand.


A couple of them are pretty rough on full damage ... particularly the one where you get a stick and have to fight off several guys with practice naginata. 

Are you supposed to be armed with a stick that you can't block with vs naginata?  That one is down right insane.  I've only managed to beat it once without using some exploits to get around it when I was trying to test it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 19, 2008, 01:34:10 pm
Play with full damage on and you'll understand.


A couple of them are pretty rough on full damage ... particularly the one where you get a stick and have to fight off several guys with practice naginata. 

Are you supposed to be armed with a stick that you can't block with vs naginata?  That one is down right insane.  I've only managed to beat it once without using some exploits to get around it when I was trying to test it.


mate you don't get a point.
In Dojo challenge i don't generally get any hits.
I can play with normal half or tripple damage - it's absolutely doesn't matter if the oppent can't hit you.
All i really asked to do - is to make melee outdoor fight indoors, so a player won't be able to dodge attacks with such an ease
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 19, 2008, 01:45:27 pm
You're not supposed to be given just a stick (although maybe I SHOULD leave it in there  >:D), but a full bo. Somehow, hanbo got in there instead.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 19, 2008, 06:54:16 pm
You're not supposed to be given just a stick (although maybe I SHOULD leave it in there  >:D), but a full bo. Somehow, hanbo got in there instead.

Yes, it's bo now, no longer hanbo ... but it's still badly outclassed in reach by the practice naginata.  It's still a stick.

--------------------------

Seriously, partial damage and RCM do not mix.  Basically, less than full damage takes all challenge out of combat - even light armor makes you untouchable.

People wore heavy armor for a reason ... it was because, otherwise, you would get clipped by stray fire and go down.

If you're going to cheat, just set it to invulnerable and cheat ... otherwise, play on full damage.

----------------------------

On the dojo, the idea is to not get hit.  If you do get hit, even if you don't go down immediately it will probably stun you long enough that you will get hit again, and go down.  (Again, unless you're playing on partial damage, which is a cheat... you might as well set it to "invulnerable".)

But still ... more on the dojo later.  For now, just be glad it's working, for a change.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 21, 2008, 03:05:58 am
We do still have a few issues that need cleaned up, that don't really go in "bug reports":

1.  We need more places to get rid of prisoners.  Slave trade was widespread in Japan at the time, plus local government entities would likely pay bounties on bandits brought in.

2.  Still need to make it reasonably easy to get captured bandits to join your team.  A hit to morale on your troops, maybe ... but I doubt too many bandits would rather face the local law enforcement or the slave traders, if offered a job in a mercenary company.  (Heck, most of them became bandits because they couldn't get a steady job to begin with.)  Bandits may not be the best troops you can get, but they're pretty much free.

3.  Of course, the map in the combat command screen ...  ::)

4.  As mentioned in the bug reports, the loot may still be low.  Outfitting all the new NPC hero units is really taking forever.

5.  Crossbows, pellet crossbows and shruiken don't seem to be for sale anywhere.  Seems a little off, as we now have them cleaned up enough to be an active part of the game.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 21, 2008, 03:42:23 am
I have some wrong feeling regarding several issues.

1. Weapons are generally way too light.
I have a lot of practice with swords and bow (mostly european, thouth)
Anyway a real tachi just can't weight 1 kilo :-) It's a cavallery sword with a blade 1m+ (usually 1.05-1.10)
2. A good arrow is about 140-150 gr(battle one,not for sport shooting, this are 30-40 gr each), so 24 pack of them supposed to be at least 3-3.5 kg, not 1

on the other hand - some of the armor is way too heavy - especially lighter armor.
For example hapuri - is a small metal plate covering forehead only.
3.0 - is actually a weight of barbute-like helm

I never seen a hevy yumi myself, but i had some practice with a similar size bow, again it's more than 1 kilo, it's 2,5 for 50kg strong bow (well of course if it is wood, not come composite, but mongolian bows are heavy as well)


So as far as i seen heavier weapons and arms are more accurate in ONR than lighter ones.
Besides i would make some minor wight difference between weapons with "short","long" and no prefix at all. lets say +-100gr, just to pretend i'm accurate :-))

The same should go to reinforced and thick armor, i would make them slightly heavier than normal.
(i guess it would involve only some text editind to do)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 21, 2008, 04:00:45 am
The weights have been the subject of a lot of very annoying rework ... they are full of bugs, which we clean up as we find them.  There was a thread including proper weights of a lot of items, which was used to correct some of them - but not nearly all.  Anyway, it's an on-going project.

And my tachi weighs about 3 pounds, which is a tad heavy ... so yeah, a tachi could be down around 2.2 pounds (1 kilo).  A 3 pound sword feels like about 10 pounds on the end of a swing - check the weights on your European-type blades as well, you will find most of them in the 2 to 4 pound range for cutting swords, lighter for rapiers.  (Olympic epee weighs 28 ounces - and that's epee, not foil ... it's a pretty scary-looking blade.)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 21, 2008, 04:09:12 am
The weights have been the subject of a lot of very annoying rework ... they are full of bugs, which we clean up as we find them.  There was a thread including proper weights of a lot of items, which was used to correct some of them - but not nearly all.  Anyway, it's an on-going project.

And my tachi weighs about 3 pounds, which is a tad heavy ... so yeah, a tachi could be down around 2.2 pounds (1 kilo).  A 3 pound sword feels like about 10 pounds on the end of a swing - check the weights on your European-type blades as well, you will find most of them in the 2 to 4 pound range for cutting swords, lighter for rapiers.  (Olympic epee weighs 28 ounces - and that's epee, not foil ... it's a pretty scary-looking blade.)



Well european swords differs as well.
Generally sword made for fencing are 0,9-1.2 kg, but i own a  couple of cavalry swords as well - one is 2.4 another 2.8 kilo(made for hacking mostly)
Again it depends on a user, i weight 115 kg myself (i'm ex army, retired), so i actually gain some advantage using heavier gear for sparrings :-)

Anyway if you say so, i do believe you , though i weighted coupl of tachi swords - they were closer to 1.5kg (but again, you are probably right - bad replicas)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on June 21, 2008, 02:41:11 pm
Generally sword made for fencing are 0,9-1.2 kg, but i own a couple of cavalry swords as well - one is 2.4 another 2.8 kilo(made for hacking mostly)
Again it depends on a user, i weight 115 kg myself (I'm ex army, retired), so i actually gain some advantage using heavier gear for sparrings :-)

2.8 Kilo? ... What sort of cavalry swords are they?

Anyway, I have recently seen a very nice and very old tachi, here is some info about it:

The total length is 109.3cm, the blade length is 81.4cm, it has grooves in the blade.
The width of the blade near the hilt is 3.3cm, the width at the point is 2.1cm.
The blade is thick, and that's normal for Japanese cavalry swords, but unfortunately I do not know the exact thickness.
The sword weighs 1.45kg, but that is in a shira saya, so you would have to add a couple of 100 grams if it was fully mounted in a proper tachi koshirae.

An average tachi blade length (pre Edo period) is about 78cm - 81cm.

Most of the weights of the items in the game are a lot more then they should be, although some swords of various lengths have the same weight (also wrong of course), but the armor in the game is absolutely monstrously heavy (they are truly absurd).
But you should probably just think of the weights as place holders... for now.
Some time ago I was working on a huge list of item weights (the weights are taken from genuine armor and weapons, including some of my own).
I might expand that list later, as it still lacks some bow, quiver, sword weights (I already have more statistics for those items, I just did not bother to add them to the list yet).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 21, 2008, 04:18:20 pm
Yeah, mate, it's what i told , actually.
since the tachi length is stated as 1,08 m in the mod, and long tachi - 1,18 the weights supposed to be around 1,5 kilo as well


 Now about my swords, i have 3 longswords, slightly different - al three of them are in the range 1.2-1.5 kilo (sharp point, late medieval style) and 2 heavy swords. one is cavalry claymore (do not confuse it with "two handed claymore" - entirely different weapon, it have.. sece i'll go mesure, don't remember dimentions. aha, so the blade length is 74.2 , total weight is 2.74 kilo. The blade width is 4.4 (whole the length to the tip), and the blade is really thick.
The blade itself is really massive, i do sucseeded cutting (more like chopping, actually) wood with it :-)) I mean - firewood.

 Ofcourse the blade is slow, you can't really swordplay with it. But it gives you insane momentum if you are strong enought to control it properly.

 Usually ppl who sees it first time all conclude that it's way to heavy for them, but again - you not suposed to use fencing technichs with it, but deliver timed single blows.
I know for a fact - i can break in half a normal sword with it (i did so once) and even by hitting a shield can cause some unpleasant injury to a holding shoulder.
 
But again - it's NOT  an example of a casual sword of a period at all.
I mentioned it just to show - some ppl are capable of forging insane swords and then actually using them to fight :-)

It's more like a custom made toy for a really strong guy, in fact you can make a much longer and probably much more effective 2h weapon with this ammount of metal.

My opinion is that 1.5kilo is more that enought, even 1.2 will do great. (unless you really have intention  to chop the wood with blade)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 21, 2008, 06:23:56 pm
I'm not sure whom to apply to for this matter, but in the inventory screen some of armor and weapons are mostly black on the black background.
Not that it's a most important issue, but you never can be sure if there is a hapurri helmet there or a blank spot.
Almost the same goes to spears (you can see the metal tips, thougth) and some other weapons

Is it possible to make background more, let's say greyish? It's relatively easy to do (i guess) and it will definitely solve the "unseen items" problem.

Also thing i really miss in this mode - being able to alt-click (i'm leftie, so i'm always confuse left-and-right click for a "normal" pp) on the villiges, towns and groups on the map to command my band "move to".

Sometimes i'm going in sircles around a village for 10-15 second before i manage to catch a right position to enter it.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 21, 2008, 06:40:53 pm
If the mouse is actually over the target (town, group, whatever), a tag will appear describing the target ... and a single left click (or right, if you have your mouse set up backwards like for left-handed use) will target it.  That's the way M&B is rigged, and mods have no control over that.

The only possible issue there would be that, since the map is relatively large, the target zone may be smaller than expected.  It sometimes takes me a few seconds of passing the mouse over a town icon before I find the actual location.

As far as I know, the use of "alt" with a mouse button in M&B does nothing other than what the same mouse button would do normally.

----------------------

Also, we can't really reset the black background ... not easily.  It's pretty much hard-coded.  You're not the first to notice this, and yes, it is annoying.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 21, 2008, 06:47:46 pm

As far as I know, the use of "alt" with a mouse button in M&B does nothing other than what the same mouse button would do normally.


Well as you say man.
I just used to BoW mod, when you acuallly get a menu on alt-click ovet object on the map

It has "move to" option (maybe i'm confusing with some other mod - i play Crusader and M&B classic as well)

Anyway - if it's a trouble - don't mention it, i can live without it :-)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 21, 2008, 07:11:05 pm
Single left click, on any open space or any group (towns, units on map, whatever) should be "move to" (and in the case of groups, take whatever action one takes there - interact, enter the town, whatever) ... but it only applies to groups if you are actually over the target, which can be hard to do if your party is moving.

There were issues previously that, if you selected a town or unit as your target (instead of a point of empty ground), your group would attempt to make a beeline to that point, rather than using the game's pathfinding routines.  (If you selected a town across the map, this resulted in parties running into mountains or rivers.)  I do not know if this was ever fixed or not... but a fix to such may have been the reason why some mods were adding additional menu selections to the basic command.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: behemoth on June 21, 2008, 07:21:01 pm
Aye, i see. thanks for explanation.

Btw i have another question - not really game related in particular, but something that make me curiose

Japan heavy armor is really a piece of work sometimes, i mean - it's not that easy to craft at all and not cheap either.
But there is a pretty obvios "anti cutting" design i used a lot myself (my hobby for a long time was historical swordfighting, usually with shields and mail or mail-plate armor)
My favorite alway was this:
(http://unlight.ru/forum/files/11/b_chest.jpg)

(http://unlight.ru/forum/files/11/b_shoulder.jpg)

I've seen a lot of similar looking gear all over the globe, but never in Japan. (maybe it's just me, honestly i never was into the eastern theme thing)
Was there a reason?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 21, 2008, 07:57:36 pm
Japanese kusari-gusoku (a type of tatami-do) was very similar to that design.  It was, however, popular several years later than the setting of our mod (like it appeared in bulk early 16th century) and, according to better historians than me, would not really be appropriate. 

Theirs normally used Japanese kusari instead of European 4:1 maille in the gaps, but either way...


Here's a picture of some, from the Costume Museum in Kyoto:

http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/38.htm


Kurosawa's films make extensive use of the design ... it was what everybody except the nobility was wearing in "Ran".  It was apparently VERY popular among lower-end troops for the better part of a couple of centuries, either using metal or hardened leather plates between sections of Japanese loose-weave kusari.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: loki_in_flames on June 23, 2008, 05:09:34 am
I've figured out recentely, that the character death/injure system is the thing I would LOVE to see in this game. Keep it BRUTAL...))))))))))
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 23, 2008, 07:33:29 am
It looks to be incorporated into Native v960, so it'll come.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: loki_in_flames on June 23, 2008, 07:37:37 am
Great!

Alone, outnumbered, lots of arrows comin', no shield, wounded, and lovin' every minute of it. Now that's what I call a GAMEPLAY..))))
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on June 23, 2008, 10:44:00 pm
i think  there Should be some more Japanese clothes  like yukata  like a black  robe like in this picture for bandits and others http://pro.corbis.com/images/CB108662.jpg?size=572&uid=%7BF568E216-B804-4EA8-B252-D28F06F4EC90%7D also the summer Yukata http://www.giantrobot.com/blogs/martin/uploaded_images/seven_samurai01b_800-781105.jpg   :green:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 24, 2008, 08:14:18 am
Clothes are difficult to do, because of the modeling, texturing, and rigging required. It's something I'm working on, but not every piece of historical Japanese clothing is going to make it into the mod.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on June 24, 2008, 12:36:45 pm
Clothes are difficult to do, because of the modeling, texturing, and rigging required. It's something I'm working on, but not every piece of historical Japanese clothing is going to make it into the mod.
  ok cool  8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 24, 2008, 02:26:52 pm
Good news! Using BRFEdit, you can export each frame of the vertex animated icons, like the player icon and spawn icons. This means you can finally modify the icons to something more Japanese. Going to see what I can some up with today.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on June 24, 2008, 04:25:28 pm
also i did notice that some Samurai  are barefoot it would be  better if they had some basic waraji  sandals like this http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9193/r1s4000342201hd8.jpg  http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7602/yoshiiesamuraitq5.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 24, 2008, 07:26:59 pm
also i did notice that some Samurai  are barefoot it would be  better if they had some basic waraji  sandals like this http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9193/r1s4000342201hd8.jpg  http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7602/yoshiiesamuraitq5.jpg

That's just a bug - somebody forgot to flag tf_guarantee_boots on some units, or else forgot to put footwear in their inventory.

(I never checked that, myself ... so even if I'm not part of the problem, I'm just part of the scenery.)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on June 24, 2008, 09:55:49 pm
also i did notice that some Samurai  are barefoot it would be  better if they had some basic waraji  sandals like this http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9193/r1s4000342201hd8.jpg  http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7602/yoshiiesamuraitq5.jpg

That's just a bug - somebody forgot to flag tf_guarantee_boots on some units, or else forgot to put footwear in their inventory.

(I never checked that, myself ... so even if I'm not part of the problem, I'm just part of the scenery.)

yes ok :D i forget to get boots from an inn and then i notice in one battle i was bare foot the lady at the inn could have gave me a free pair of zori or waraji aleast  :green: you know   buy one get one free  :lol: then i notice some Samuria did not have shoes on
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on June 26, 2008, 05:00:39 am
have a look at this hat  Guys  :D  i have seen it in Samuria films http://www.joaf.co.jp/maturi/hanagasa/maturi-okesagasa-.html   yes this is the one its called a torioi gasa http://www.geocities.com/kazenaga23/torioi_gasa.jpg 
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on June 26, 2008, 05:13:53 am
have a look at this hat  Guys  :D  i have seen it in Samuria films http://www.joaf.co.jp/maturi/hanagasa/maturi-okesagasa-.html   okesa gasa the samurai on the horse has it on like a folded straw hat http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7602/yoshiiesamuraitq5.jpg

Yeah, I have seen that hat in BRF Edit, so we already have it, it was just not in-game for some reason.
Anyway, we should definitely have it in the shops.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on June 26, 2008, 05:20:51 am
have a look at this hat  Guys  :D  i have seen it in Samuria films http://www.joaf.co.jp/maturi/hanagasa/maturi-okesagasa-.html   okesa gasa the samurai on the horse has it on like a folded straw hat http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7602/yoshiiesamuraitq5.jpg

Yeah, I have seen that hat in BRF Edit, so we already have it, it was just not in-game for some reason.
Anyway, we should definitely have it in the shops.
yeah Great it will look cool  in the game  :lol:
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 27, 2008, 12:39:38 am
Hey, question for anybody who knows...

Can we rig troops to use bows or crossbows with shields?

Because where Japan used shields was as archer pavise, not melee combat.  However, if we could work around the game engine, we might still be able to rig them to work, given enough effort.  But I'm not sure exactly what that would entail.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on June 29, 2008, 10:37:20 am
Theoretically, you would have to have a second guy carrying the pavise with the archer, since you can't use a shield and any two-handed weapon simultaneously. The trick would be to somehow link the pavise-carrying agent with the archer so that he moves just in front of the archer. The problem here is the archer AI is geared for direct, not indirect, fire, so the archer would always try to get out from behind the pavise to fire, negating its value.

Now, with v.960, you have to ability to target agents that are ranged and script them. However, getting the pavise-bearer to script...I'm not sure how that would work.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 08, 2008, 09:39:07 pm
Just a quick note: development and bug-fixing proceeds as usual. A kokujin job board for all classes and a shugo job board for non-aligned classes has been implemented, to make getting quests a little simpler and cleaner. It also provides beginning ronin with something to do to build strength before trying to tackle the new, larger bandit parties (thanks to Ron for the idea). Along side that I have implemented a long-planned feature, moneychangers. Located in cities in the east ward, they can convert raw mon to strings of mon, or gold koban coins, or stacks of koban (for a slight fee, of course), or back again. Items representing quantities of money are going to start showing up in the loot, since it seems absurd to me that these bandits would be running around with no money on them. Another feature I'm working on is a more interactive camp, with a dedicated chest for storage of items. Ichimonji and Ron, how are the armors coming along?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 08, 2008, 10:25:46 pm
I haven't touched the new armors, since the chain shirt.  Couldn't tell you there...

I'm still thinking about how to do the new quivers.  Got pictures, but the texture part is going to be rough (unless I make the texture files as big as all outdoors).  Also, thinking of trying to animate all of possibly up to 50 arrows in said quiver ... which will look cool, but be rough on the poly count.

(Side note - on that, also thinking of building quivers ranging from 12 to 50 or more arrows.  The Japanese were not quite as bad as the Mongols about carrying, as one Polish monk wrote, "enough weapons for four or five warriors", but the samurai still tended to get a little excessive on such things.)

But I haven't really got started on that yet.  I'm still just working out how I want to approach it.  (I find I work better on complex problems that way ... think about something for days before I start, and then once I have a clear plan, do it all at once.)


Side note - Might want to make sure the various parties roaming the map carry some food as well (well, maybe the river pirates might be that hungry, but most parties...), in addition to money.  And see if you can get horses to show up in the loot - seems odd that you have a 0% chance of capturing any of the enemy horses.

Other side note - how do you prevent the "money" items from being re-sold at like 10% of face value, as in accordance to the trade skill modifier?

Yet another side note - think we could talk the computer into combining food item stacks?  I mean, the way food is used, it's easy to have several groups of "rice" - 12/35, 9/35, 15/35 - and it's sometimes hard to get the computer to use the smallest one first.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 09, 2008, 12:00:09 pm
I'm still thinking about how to do the new quivers.  Got pictures, but the texture part is going to be rough (unless I make the texture files as big as all outdoors).  Also, thinking of trying to animate all of possibly up to 50 arrows in said quiver ... which will look cool, but be rough on the poly count.

(Side note - on that, also thinking of building quivers ranging from 12 to 50 or more arrows.  The Japanese were not quite as bad as the Mongols about carrying, as one Polish monk wrote, "enough weapons for four or five warriors", but the samurai still tended to get a little excessive on such things.)

But I haven't really got started on that yet.  I'm still just working out how I want to approach it.  (I find I work better on complex problems that way ... think about something for days before I start, and then once I have a clear plan, do it all at once.)

I'm with you there...there's a technician at work who's favorite saying is 'Plan your work, then work your plan.'


Quote
Side note - Might want to make sure the various parties roaming the map carry some food as well (well, maybe the river pirates might be that hungry, but most parties...), in addition to money.  And see if you can get horses to show up in the loot - seems odd that you have a 0% chance of capturing any of the enemy horses.

These can be added easily enough in the loot code.

Quote
Other side note - how do you prevent the "money" items from being re-sold at like 10% of face value, as in accordance to the trade skill modifier?

I can modify the sell item code to set the trade value of the 'money' items to zero.

Quote
Yet another side note - think we could talk the computer into combining food item stacks?  I mean, the way food is used, it's easy to have several groups of "rice" - 12/35, 9/35, 15/35 - and it's sometimes hard to get the computer to use the smallest one first.


This would be a good activity for the camp menu/scripts. Good Idea.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on July 10, 2008, 04:50:38 am
Ichimonji and Ron, how are the armors coming along?

I have been looking for some detailed pictures of horo, but they are extremely rare.
And when I finally modelled a horo, I was not pleased with the way it looked and I scrapped it, I think I can model a much better horo.

Question... fujiwara, do you want some new horse models?
I am very familiar with Japanese saddles and stirrups, modelling a Kiso (war pony) would be very easy for me, and I think it would look very cool to have Japanese Kiso complete with abumi (Japanese stirrups) in-game instead of Western horses with Western saddles (the Western horses look very out of place in Japan).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ron, if you want some smaller quivers, you will need some other quiver types for them (the smallest type holding only 6 arrows, that would be perfect for hunting quests because you would only get 6 chances to kill the boar, I have seen Highlander make a new hunting mod that has deer and boar in it), the other quiver would hold around 24 arrows, they would be perfect for village patrolls and bandits.
I can give you detailed pictures of two types of quivers that would be appropriate for the small and medium sized quivers (both quivers are much simpler in design then the large quiver).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 10, 2008, 05:04:42 am
Question... fujiwara, do you want some new horse models?
I am very familiar with Japanese saddles and stirrups, modelling a Kiso (war pony) would be very easy for me, and I think it would look very cool to have Japanese Kiso complete with abumi (Japanese stirrups) in-game instead of Western horses with Western saddles (the Western horses look very out of place in Japan).

I would say yes, but that would be a longer project, simply because of rigging a horse mesh...I'd have to go through several tries to get that right, I'd imagine.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on July 10, 2008, 05:12:29 am
I would say yes, but that would be a longer project, simply because of rigging a horse mesh...I'd have to go through several tries to get that right, I'd imagine.

Yeah, I think it would be a miracle if it would turn out right in 1 or 2 tries, especially with the stirrups as they may have to be slightly repositioned to fit the feet properly.

I will do the armors first, but when I'm done with them, I will model the Kiso.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 10, 2008, 05:43:30 am
Any pictures of Japanese quivers of any size that you have, send them.  I'm still pondering how exactly I want to approach this mess, but more data won't hurt.


-------------------------

As for a hunting quest, I would rather jump on three angry guys in body armor than a wild boar.  I've SEEN those things take multiple rifle rounds and not even flinch.  Stopping a boar with an AK-47 is like stopping a charging bull with spitwads, or attacking a tank with a flyswatter.  On top of that, those tusks will tear through more metal than I could puncture with an axe.  If you've never gone up against those things, it's just not what you're thinking.  If anything, I figure we should give anybody going after the boar a bunch of extra arrows, heavy armor, and a nice funeral afterwards (because he's not coming back).  I would much rather go to work on an elephant with a baseball bat... odds of survival would be a lot better.

The only safe ways to hunt a wild boar are from elevated positions (i.e. trees or the bed of a pickup), or run them with large numbers of dogs (and expect to lose a few dogs).  Although horses don't really count as elevated positions, since the pigs can still tear at the horses' legs, the samurai used their version of both ... running them with dogs and shooting them from horse.  Even then it was a sport for warriors, and not without reason - casualties were not uncommon.

We had better give them all the arrows they can carry.  And a big, scary spear wouldn't be a bad plan either.  And take out insurance policies on anybody going out that day.

Hunting tigers can be fun too, for the same reasons.  Kato Kiyomasa thought that was a great sport.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on July 13, 2008, 06:34:49 pm
Ron, here are the quiver pictures:  http://rapidshare.com/files/129504005/Japanese_quivers.rar.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/129504005/Japanese_quivers.rar.html)

I have included pictures of the utsubo quiver, but that's basically a daimyo grade quiver, and I don't know if it already existed during the Onin war.

About boar hunting, a couple of arrows should be enough, it will show skill, and it will separate the samurai from the peasants :green:
Besides, they never took many arrows with them on hunting trips, it's not as if they were going to war (several large quivers were taken to war... small quivers were used for pleasure, sport and hunting).
Wearing armor while boar hunting is historically incorrect, they had a traditional hunting costume, a tachi, a bow, and sometimes a boar spear (yes, the spear is a good idea).

I don't know what the Japanese boar spear looks like, all I know is that it has a wide blade,  and I know it's name: "Inoshishi-no-yari".

Here is a picture of the "Inoshishi".
(http://www.camylee.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/img_5015boar.jpg)

EDIT: About Kato Kiyomasa, he hunted the tigers when he was in Korea, there were no tigers in Japan.
(http://earthtrends.wri.org/images/tiger_distribution.jpg)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 13, 2008, 11:36:44 pm
Yeah, Kato Kiyomasa was hunting tigers in Korea ... there shouldn't be any standing population of tigers in Japan.  (Maybe a few imported ones, but not a native population of them.)

(oddly, I wonder if tigers or snow leopards were ever somewhat domesticated as military animals in Japan?  Some of that was done in India and parts of what is now western China, and I know Japan made extensive use of dogs, but I couldn't find any information on big cats.)

I didn't say wearing armor while hunting boars was traditional ... just that it was a darned good idea.  The guys I mentioned hunting pigs with AK's were some of my extended family, and you can extrapolate from my knowledge of combat what kind of people they are - I was talking about modern "samurai" being unable to stop a wild pig.

Anyway, I'll look over the quivers.  I'm having a lot of trouble getting my head wrapped around this one, for some reason ... but I will get them here in a bit.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on July 15, 2008, 06:29:23 am
Some exotic animals have been kept as treasures, such as tigers... and even an elephant.
But they were never used for war.

Good luck with the quivers.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 15, 2008, 07:18:45 am
Those quivers are turning into a case of writer's block, or the like.  Every time I try to plan out how to get them turned the right direction and such, my brain locks up.  Trying to think of how to minimize clipping on the models is worse.  It's like some kind of bizarre nightmare, trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

That's even before the really frustrating part of trying to animate all of those darned arrows.  Although that part won't be difficult ... just absurdly labor-intensive.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on July 15, 2008, 09:27:35 am
hey i think someone might have talked about the ninja before  :lol: maybe have a group of them like the bandits so if you go near a certain area map they will attack you  :green: give them a simple ninja sword and these http://theninjarefuge.com/sitebuilder/images/Historical_Shuriken-405x345.jpg
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 15, 2008, 09:40:00 am
hey i think someone might have talked about the ninja before  :lol: maybe have a group of them like the bandits so if you go near a certain area map they will attack you  :green: give them a simple ninja sword and these http://theninjarefuge.com/sitebuilder/images/Historical_Shuriken-405x345.jpg

All of the new shruiken are Tokugure, from the correct time period.  They are in the game, but have not been fully distributed and/or made available for sale.

Shinobi troops are now an option ... although I don't think any of them are on the map yet.  One or two with patrols, as scouts, might work ... but otherwise, they should only appear in special purpose scenarios.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on July 21, 2008, 12:46:13 am
I'm sure Fujiwara is already planning something along these lines, but in posting about the Shoen bugs an idea came to me:  Sake merchants.

Unfortunately I'm having a total blank on their actual Japanese name (sakeya is the shop, and sakeza [za being the Muromachi analogue of the European guild] would be too easy), but during the game's period they had taken on basic banking functions.  Got your payment of 100 koku of rice, but need it as cold hard cash?  Visit the sake merchant.

As such it would make sense to have special shops where one could either buy sake or do business, just as in history.  Things one might be able to do at the sake merchant:

* Sell rice (or perhaps other goods, such as precious metals) for cash
* Buy rice with cash (e.g. to pay taxes)
* Deposit items for storage (replacing the fairly exploitable inn "chests")
* Invest in a shoen
* Order improvements to a shoen (+)
* Get a record or overview of all the consolidated lands and which ones one has invested in
* Maybe even get juicy gossip on the market (e.g. "Did you hear?  Hosokawa Masamoto bought a controlling interest in the Maizuru shoen.")

(+) Acknowledging that the current option list is already complex, this amount of detail may or may not work for the sake merchant... but it's something for Fujiwara to think on  8)

Speaking historically, these sake-merchants-with-benefits seem to have been restricted to Kyoto.  That might not make great gameplay, so I could see there being a handful scattered across the map (including one in Kyoto).  They could replace the "chest" in every inn, so no more buying four stacks of paper in Hashimoto and having it teleport for delivery to Hidaka.

And naturally, the sake merchant would want his cut out of any transaction  :green:

As a corollary, if a sake merchant system is desired and feasible, it would make sense to have the government get involved.  Wages as a retainer would generally be paid in rice, even though Japan's economy had largely transitioned to coin by the game's period.  Similarly, taxes were often (but not always) expected in rice.  This was the basis of the sake merchant's "banking" business -- rice being a main ingredient in his end product, which also needed secure storage to prevent theft, he became the natural go-to person for converting rice to more fungible currency and back. 

That's my brain dump on the subject.  I'm well aware that this is a large feature set to suggest, and perhaps a little cheeky to do so without having the coding skills personally... but if any of the above sparks Fujiwara's interest, I'll be tickled.  I'm already getting more enjoyment than I should out of the shoen system; adding the sake merchants in would give a little bit of supporting functionality (ledger books!) plus a whole lot of flavor.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 21, 2008, 01:13:20 am
I like it.  A more integrated version of the investment system, instead of being so hit-and-miss as it is now.  Maybe integrate this into the general goods merchant ... the same way both the weapons and armor are together.

Of course, eliminating all of the bugs in the Shoen system first would probably be good.  Wouldn't want to get the cart ahead of the horse here.

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 21, 2008, 12:35:21 pm
I think this is brilliant. The current goods merchant, being ripped straight from Native v751, was never meant to be the Wal-Mart of Feudal Japan, but I haven't really had a good replacement either. The original design was meant to have goods, horses, and food stuffs (separated into fishmongers (fish and meat) and grocers (everything else)) separated, but that never got implemented. Some individual thoughts:

1) I can see a merchant mission where the player is tasked with negotiating the best deal on transaction fees (since the price of rice was fixed) on a given quantity of rice (that's a really good idea actually, especially if acting in a fiduciary capacity for a village or something...*wheels turning*), but for general game play, I don't see players carrying around rice in quantities large enough to need to sell. Yes, samurai were paid in rice, but they weren't given 100 bushels full of grain and shown the door (this is the rice 'certificate' I talked about a LONG time ago). Now, it would be very easy to, instead of giving players straight cash, give them a rice certificate with some nominal face value which then must be taken to the sake merchant for conversion either to rice or coin. It would add a huge amount of realism, and an addition 'bonus' item to possibly be gained through combat with patrols (imagine finding a samurai's 'salary' on his person because he didn't take the time to pay a visit to the sake merchant).

2) By the same token, taxes were paid on rice. I'm not aware of any capitation tax in Feudal Japan, so individuals wouldn't need to pay taxes. Buying rice for rations' sake would be good though.

3) I like the idea of warehousing, especially for the merchant class.

4 - 7) It makes logical sense for a sake merchant to also be the broker for shoen, since it would be in his interest to secure a supply of rice. The rest are features I intend to implement.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on July 21, 2008, 04:06:43 pm
have a look at this i am going to buy one soon its a camp hat  :green: this one is Production but i have seen this hat in many Samurai movies  http://www.daitouryu.com/syoudoukan/dougi/dougi04.htm#jouba_jingasa2
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 21, 2008, 08:57:22 pm
have a look at this i am going to buy one soon its a camp hat  :green: this one is Production but i have seen this hat in many Samurai movies  http://www.daitouryu.com/syoudoukan/dougi/dougi04.htm#jouba_jingasa2

The jingasa is later period than our mod.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on July 21, 2008, 10:38:38 pm
have a look at this i am going to buy one soon its a camp hat  :green: this one is Production but i have seen this hat in many Samurai movies  http://www.daitouryu.com/syoudoukan/dougi/dougi04.htm#jouba_jingasa2

The jingasa is later period than our mod.

ok  :D
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 23, 2008, 08:31:13 am
Hey, does anybody think it would be worth our time to set up a complex production economy?

For example, certain towns would have certain facilities (mill, iron mine, advanced rice farming, whatever).  Each of these would take in certain resources, and put out certain resources, per unit time.  Example - town with iron mine would use various types of tools and lumber, and produce iron ore.  Town with smelter would use iron ore and produce iron.  Towns with smiths would use iron, along with weapons, also produce metal tools.

This would serve several game purposes.  One, it would provide unlimited opportunities to improve the shoen, above the basics (irrigation, village defenses).  Two, it would add capabilities to any castles that the player builds/takes ... provided you can get some people to move there.  Three, it would give raids something to disable (they took the village and burned the mill), and subsequently something to rebuild/repair (i.e. a money sink late-game).  Four, it would replace the rather odd supply-and-demand array that is currently there with something that had some logic to it (i.e. a town with a mill will always buy grain, even if they have some, because they can turn it into flour to sell at a higher price).  Five, it would add some depth to both the merchant and kuge lines ... building stuff to add to your personal empire (over and above building stuff in a shoen where you have dominant interest).  I mean, if you're supposed to be the government of a village, the first thing you would likely want to do is try to get it into shape.

Of course, these will be more critical when we get to the part where there is a lot of urban combat - bandits raiding villages, armies storming castles, and such.  So we may want to just think about that for a while, until the rest is in place.

Bad news - it would be a nightmare to set up.  Which is why I ask if anybody thinks it's worth it, or if we should go with a greatly abbreviated form of economy.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 23, 2008, 10:41:27 pm
I've tossed the idea around, and it would certainly provide new things to do for all classes. Let me get the original design in place (I STILL don't have a Native-style trade web in place), and then we can hash out some ideas.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 23, 2008, 10:50:05 pm
I've tossed the idea around, and it would certainly provide new things to do for all classes. Let me get the original design in place (I STILL don't have a Native-style trade web in place), and then we can hash out some ideas.

Actually, that being part of the point ... the Native-style trade web requires a certain array script that is going to create technical problems for us.  Therefore, a complete go-back-and-start-over model might be in order - something built on entirely different factors than the rather obvious Native supply-and-demand with random production. 
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on July 24, 2008, 02:05:36 pm
good point...I thought of that afterwards...throwing away one working system to build another.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: von Schweinewitz on July 28, 2008, 12:34:48 am
The user "-IYI-O-R-T-" opened up a thread at the Taleworlds forum concerning a Battle Royale style mod (?!?) - nonetheless the Japanese face textures seem to be worth to take a look at: http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,40681.0.html

Example of -IYI-O-R-T-'s work:

(http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/5772/womanfacebrown2kleinbn0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on July 28, 2008, 11:17:45 am
Re: -IYI-O-R-T-'s work; good start, but as a game artist I'd say it looks VERY monochrome and "flat."  Human skin has lots and lots of colours and this would benefit from a few more layers (in addition to some heavier shading).  Of course that can be a valid look to go for, but I don't think it fits into ONR's more realistic visual style very well.

Another suggestion:  Debt and credit.  Sake merchants definitely played the role of loan sharks in this era, and many bushi and kuge alike spent more than their means (and were not above arranging 'accidents' to prevent collection from taking place).  Don't have a fuller idea on this in my head yet, but there are possibilities.  (Plus, there's the flipside to debt -- debt collection and becoming a loan shark oneself.)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 02, 2008, 12:42:55 pm
Guys:

Not really a "suggestion", but I think I'm on-track for adding the freaky-looking repeating crossbows.  First few rounds will be tests, and we'll see how it goes.  Still, they were historical, specifically used for defense of structures and naval engagements ... two things we're about to need.

I also hope to get some actually Japanese-looking standard crossbows into the game ... something that somewhat resembles historical.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on August 02, 2008, 06:42:44 pm
The user "-IYI-O-R-T-" opened up a thread at the Taleworlds forum concerning a Battle Royale style mod (?!?) - nonetheless the Japanese face textures seem to be worth to take a look at: http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,40681.0.html

Example of -IYI-O-R-T-'s work:

(http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/5772/womanfacebrown2kleinbn0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)



  wow that face looks cool  :green: 8) what a fine japanese face :P
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on August 02, 2008, 07:52:01 pm
i used to own a studio in London making electronic music AND  i had loads of samplers and synthesizer :green:  :lol: I  am going to make some music soon from Japanese instruments check this out you can play the Itchu Bushi shamisen     here  just let it load then play the notes  :green:  http://www.itchu.com/e/e_shamisen_sound.html   and you can play the koto here http://www.genkienglish.net/genkijapan/koto.htm
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: carlo on August 03, 2008, 04:24:43 am
this is very cool look here put a tic in the box on the Tsutsumi  and the Taiko drum and press play or the drum and koto http://www.pbs.org/empires/japan/instruments.html   :green: :lol: some good music for the mod me thinks  :P
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 03, 2008, 04:28:36 am
this is very cool look here put a tic in the box on the Tsutsumi  and the Taiko drum and press play or the drum and koto http://www.pbs.org/empires/japan/instruments.html   :green: :lol: some good music for the mod me thinks  :P

We have decent music ... custom made for OnR by a very talented musician.

Plus, even if we wanted purely historical, Taiko drum music is too late period.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on August 06, 2008, 06:15:04 am
When discussing mon in the graphics improvement thread, it struck me there are challenges surrounding getting gear with a specific mon if left to chance and the armoury stores.  Maybe a way around that would be to have a 'name registry' function.  Visit Kyoto, pick your clan from a list, and thenceforth you'll have access to customised gear.

Very raw idea that, but I gotta braid my hair and head to job number one!  ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 12, 2008, 06:06:36 pm
Ok, with everything else pretty much on track, let's talk about troop trees.  Specifically, an idea some of us developed for "Cult of the Big Lizard" (which ended up on permanent hold due to lack of man-power).

The model there was to run like this:

Basic unit upgrades automatically to more experienced basic unit.
northman fighter (effectively unarmed) - veteran fighter - expert fighter (still effectively unarmed, but much higher level)

Then lateral movement (i.e. no change in level, but a change in equipment) was done by conversation with an outfitter (armorer, smith, whoever), and paying for the equipment:
veteran fighter - mace man
                        axe man
                        swordsman
                        archer
                        crossbowman
                        mounted scout
                        (whatever)

(side note: military historians will immediately recognize the mace man/axe man/swordsman breakdown - Mamluk Egypt used that breakdown to mark social caste of their troops.  CBL was to be full of little things like that.)

Likewise, "expert fighter" could move laterally to "veteran (whatever)".  Just a question of money for equipment.  However, once they chose a specialization, they couldn't really go back ... it would not really be reasonable. 


Anyway, this meant that loot could be like 100% of what you would really find on the field ... but as long as you had troops to outfit, there was always a huge money sink.  It would literally cost as much to outfit regular troops as it would to outfit companions.  Also to help balance this, Fisheye had some code that let you loot from your own casualties ... so if your guys got killed, you could still recover some of the cost.

Now, we can set this up easily enough.  And it would fix our problem of troops always having the wrong color of gear.  (You could buy the gear in whatever color you liked.  With the new personal heraldry stuff in .960, it could even eventually be personalized.)  It would also fix the wonky balance issues involving loot.

Heck, I can set this up by myself ... everything but the conversation with the outfitter script.  (My Python code skills aren't quite up to speed there.)  And having been thinking about it for some time, I think we can make it fit the history as well.

Who is game for seriously changing how the game engine works?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Wood on August 12, 2008, 07:46:46 pm
It sounds like a good idea and is, coincidentally, very similar to what I'm planning on for my own mod.
However, would a Japanese lord be expected to pay for the equipment of all of their soldiers? I'm not good with Japanese history but didn't weren't samurai expected to provide their own armour and weapons?
Also, take into account the time required to train the soldier to use the new weaponry, it wouldn't make sense for an archer to be trained overnight.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 12, 2008, 08:09:38 pm
Well, yes and no.  Samurai generally owned their own swords.  Recruited ronin would have to start out with a blade, and maybe a peasant bow or a few throwing knives.  Beyond that, yes, most equipment (especially armor) was issued.  Some families had their own armor and such, but if so, that could be simulated by allowing the player to recruit a limited number of "higher level" characters who already had equipment.  (A good use for "fame" - only well-known commanders would get volunteers from noble families who would have their own gear.  Everybody else would be lucky to round up a herd of ronin, and more likely would have to make do with peasants.)  The ashigaru - the peasant soldiers - would be entirely issued equipment.

As for training, well, bows and crossbows were normal agricultural equipment too.  Like issuing rifles to farm boys today, it wouldn't take much training - it was something they knew how to use since childhood, at least a little.  (Remember this was modern military/police/hunting/self-defense equipment at the time ... people had some idea how it was used.  Not like the modern world, where people say "A sword?  You're kidding, right?" ...)  Then the lowest rank of each tier would be relatively low skill, and increasing through experience-based upgrades (either from combat or from the training skill).  So you turn a peasant into an ashigaru archer ... he starts with a minimal of skill in the bow, just from being human, and then doesn't get good until he upgrades to veteran or expert.

Of course, it takes a little tweaking ... and there can be balance problems meanwhile.  That's why I asked before just writing it up.  Big project.

-------------------------

Wood:  What's your mod?  What are you working on?
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on August 15, 2008, 09:10:47 am
Well, yes and no.  Samurai generally owned their own swords.  Recruited ronin would have to start out with a blade, and maybe a peasant bow or a few throwing knives.  Beyond that, yes, most equipment (especially armor) was issued. 

Are you saying that a daimyo provided the armor for samurai? Because that would not be correct, samurai were expected to provide their own weapons and armor.

The ashigaru - the peasant soldiers - would be entirely issued equipment

Ashigaru had to bring improvised weapons with them, they looted armor and weapons from the battlefield to improve their equipment, that did not change until well after the Onin period when the Sengoku-daimyo provided the ashigaru with loan armor and weapons.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 15, 2008, 09:49:44 am
If someone were promoted/recruited into some lord's force, there had to be some stipulation for providing them with necessary equipment.  If they were expected to provide their own, then there had to be a way that they could get a grant or long-term loan from their lord.  There is no way that there were enough independently wealthy samurai who could just show up with their own armor.  Higher ranking people, sure ... some ronin, no.

That said, some certainly did have their own gear.  But that is easy to simulate as well, by allowing a certain number of equipped units to be recruited as well.  But for the player, building a predominately mercenary force, waiting for their troops to be able to afford gear would take forever.

And it was not long after the Onin War that all ashigaru had issued weapons.  By the Tokugawa Shogunate, peasants were forbidden to own weapons, and ashigaru were expected to return their weapons when leaving military service.  I didn't say peasants - I said ashigaru.  There's a difference.  Ashigaru, while not bushi, were at least expected to look and act a little bit like an army.  That means somebody is going to have to find them some gear, one way or the other.

(Granted, large-scale use of ashigaru was kind of a new concept in the Onin War, so the line between peasant rabble and soldiers was not as clear as it would be later....)

The thing is, it is currently unreasonable to expect troops to be able to loot better gear than what they are fighting.  The cost of outfitting troops needs to be included, no matter if you figure it as a sign-on uniform bonus or purchacing the gear directly.

I figure ronin have to come with a blade, and maybe other low-end weapons.  Peasant types come with improvised weapons.  If you want to upgrade either of those to any kind of a fighting force, it's going to cost you.  Granted, you could wait and only recruit guys with gear, or purely mercenary units (yojimbo and bandits) who really would be expected to buy or steal their own gear (but they're going to expect a lot more pay for that cost of operation).  But if you intend to turn rabble into an army, at some point you're going to have to add a rather costly gear bonus to their salary (and probably a substantially increased salary to maintain this gear) or issue the gear directly. 

As they increase in levels, they might add a little bit of stuff on their own ... but not like they do now.

That's just economics.  Armor was just too expensive.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on August 15, 2008, 12:59:46 pm
On armour cost:  I just found this tidbit in the Google book preview of Friday's Samurai, Warfare, and the State in Early Medieval Japan (http://books.google.com/books?id=eyMYelZlKekC&pg=RA1-PA95&lpg=RA1-PA95&dq=haramaki+muromachi&source=web&ots=mpxDyvgPYa&sig=ntZM5GjjbAnGIwnsZF5LoN_YDNE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PRA1-PA94,M1):

Quote
One document from 1107 gives the value of an oyoroi as 80 hiki, a sum equal to the cost of eight short swords (uchi-gatana), and to several months' wages for an ordinary worker of the period.

Though 1 hiki = 10 mon, obviously the price itself is well out of calibration for our period, but the relative cost to blades and wages are probably not that far off.  So it becomes a matter of figuring out how much an "ordinary worker" makes, or how much an average uchigatana costs.  If we can find those data expressed in koku, it's reasonable to assume that the relationship between these three items would stay roughly the same.

I just found a book that may have some more useful information:  Land and Lordship in Early Modern Japan (http://books.google.com/books?id=nqdT8xPiFNYC&dq=koku+stipend&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0) by Mark Ravina.  In a footnote I found on Google Books it mentions a certain Akaishi Konojirou was afforded a stipend worth about 10 koku... but the page that might suggest who he was and what his status was is not available.  :P

I have to get back to work now, or I'd continue on this line of research.  If someone wants to pick things up meanwhile, try searching for "koku AND stipend" -- these are the terms that seem best able to get us useful data.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 15, 2008, 09:41:39 pm
Actually, we do have the price of an uchi-gatana, from the Onin period, at about 60 koku, which would make an o-yoroi 480 koku. Now, we're currently using the 1 koku = 360 mon conversion, but if we go to the 1 koku = 1360 mon conversion, the uchi-gatana becomes 81600 mon and the o-yoroi 652800 mon :!:

That certainly looks like a money sink to me
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 15, 2008, 09:52:16 pm
One-time costs (i.e. the player's equipment) are not a money sink.  It only works if the player must pay these kind of charges occasionally (like whenever troops are upgraded).

Otherwise, higher value of items works the other way whenever such items are looted.  And since looting is the primary source of income in the game...

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 15, 2008, 11:01:27 pm
They are if you only buy them once...

It appears that item durability is not going to be a Native feature (nothing in the .960 module system would suggest otherwise), and tracking the durability of individual item instances is not feasible. What I'm thinking of adding is a variable that tracks the number of battles a player has fought, with an increasing chance for one or more items to decrease one level in quality (well-made/heavy/balanced -> regular -> chipped -> rusty/bent/old -> completely unusable, similar for armor). It's not as realistic as the system I had hoped to have, but better than the current system of the well-made tachi that lasts 10000 battles.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 15, 2008, 11:25:13 pm
Having to buy equipment for your troops every time they upgrade should do the job.

Otherwise ... well, I fear it will either become utterly arbitrary and much too often ("What is this sword made of?  Chocolate?"), not often enough to ever make a difference (if a sword is good for 5 to 7 years of pretty heavy combat, that still equals nothing in the economic scheme - it's just extra micro-management for your troops, annoyance that does not really add to balance), or some bizarre combination of the two (frequent micro-management that still does not balance anything).  I base this on other games I have seen where similar measures were added (I did some work on the "Build 13" mod package for Bethesda's "Pirates of the Caribbean" a few years back, where that very thing was attempted with painful side-effects) ... it was impossible to get them right.

No, our best bets for economic balance are in troops cost (both equipment and cost of keeping them garrisoned somewhere), cost of building and maintaining facilities (which would eventually be theoretically profitable, but not for a while), and subsequent loss of said facilities if not enough is spent on defending them.  Those are money sinks that make sense ... everybody understands what "bandits burned your mill when they looted the town" means.  (It means you're going to have to spend full time defending that town for a while, if you want to build anything there.)  Also, it doesn't feel like micro-management ("you have to replace a sword"), it feels like adventure ("You have to defend the town from hordes of dangerous bandits") ... so people won't really notice that defending the town is costing them way more than they're making (troops, defensive structures, your time to lead the project, arming the villagers ... all these things cost something).

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on August 16, 2008, 05:45:20 am
One document from 1107 gives the value of an oyoroi as 80 hiki, a sum equal to the cost of eight short swords (uchi-gatana), and to several months' wages for an ordinary worker of the period.

A very good find :D

And it also mentions the cost of a haramaki with o-sode "haramaki yoroi, which could be obtained for a quarter of the price of an o-yoroi" :)
Note: a haramaki with o-sode was is known as a haramaki yoroi, a normal haramaki would obviously have been even cheaper.

But the uchi-gatana a short sword? ???
Now that's a bit weird, because an uchi-gatana is classified as a daito (long sword), not a shoto (short sword), so if the price of an o-yoroi is compared to a shoto, the price may actually be less then 480 koku (like it could be only 240 koku, swords between 2 and 3 shaku in blade length would have the normal price, blades between one and two shaku would be half price, and blades less then one shaku would be one third of the price, of course the prices of swords made by different smiths varied... a lot).

I think we should seriously stay away from having the player pay for the equipment of their samurai army, players could never afford to do that (plus it's just not historically correct, samurai got their first weapons and armor from their father).
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 16, 2008, 06:17:11 am
Musashi specifically said that, in his time, that long and short swords used to be referred to as tachi and katana, but now were called katana and wakizashi.  He seemed to be implying that tachi and uchigatana may have been carried together as long and short.  Now, granted, when he said they used to be - we don't know if that was 100% accurate, and we don't know exactly when "used to be called..." was.  Still, the use of uchigatana translated as "a shorter sword" does have some linguistic and historical prescedent, including that reference from probably the single most famous work in Japanese history.


As for paying for equipment for "samurai" ... I was thinking of paying for equipment if you want to recruit poor ronin.  If you can get actual samurai, they would already have their own equipment, sure.  If you have to hire left-overs, odds are they will be poor and poorly equipped, and if you want to turn them back into a force of samurai then you will have to help the process along.  And most certainly, if you want well-armed ashigaru instead of peasant rabble, that's going to require some investment.

Actually, that was the beauty of the system I described.  It makes a clear line between guys with proper gear and guys without.  You can either hold out for the few who already have equipment (if you're respected enough to attract them, or lucky enough to rescue them so they owe you one), or you can expect to incur some expenses in getting them back into a fighting force, or you can just live with using rabble for a while (but that strategy likely won't last long).  Daimyo would have no problem in being picky and only taking guys who had proper gear ... players starting a mercenary company likely could not be so particular, unless they could hold out with just a few companions until they had enough of a reputation to attract a better class of recruits.

Or there was always the option of building an army from bandits and yojimbo, who would provide their own gear (by stealing it), but would expect more money in return (and you could never be sure what kind of gear they would show up with).

Anyway, yes I understand that proper samurai would have weapons and armor.  But this is a critical point - you don't find huge numbers of proper samurai in taverns, especially not when several big clans are looking for such.  The guys you can easily hire are unemployed.  Ronin.  Drifters.  Turning them into any kind of a fighting force is not the same as recruiting teenagers from respected samurai families.  Recruiting ronin would be like hiring from whoever the parole board gave you this week - dangerous, desperate, unemployed people ... people willing to kill, but dirt poor and without any substantial equipment.  People too dangerous to just get a job, and too hungry to buy things like armor (and therefore be eligible for jobs with the daimyo's army).  That's why they would join you cheap - because they didn't have the gear to qualify for a better army.

If you want to turn them into an army, uniforms are your expense.... or else you will be waiting for a VERY long time for them to get enough money saved up for any gear.

Or you can hold out for the occasional ones who do have gear.

That was the system I was suggesting.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 17, 2008, 06:46:46 am
OK, general update on the troop trees.  I talked to Fujiwara about it, we have a working plan where decent samurai (with gear) can be recruited (if you have the reputation), or cheaper troops can be recruited and outfitted yourself.  Peasants will attempt to arm themselves, but if you want to turn them into an army (ashigaru), you're going to have to pay for some gear.  This should allow for all of the historical possibilities (samurai with gear, ronin without, peasants armed with farm tools and ashigaru with issued equipment), while eliminating the very bizarre development where military-grade equipment just appeared by magic.  It adds a little bit of a feel of micro-management, but not as bad as the feeling that all of your troops have better equipment than you.

Plus, we will be adding a full troop line for yojimbo (mercenaries).  They, and any bandits or ninja who join your team, will provide their own gear - but they will not be cheap.

Historical note:  Yojimbo - a mercenary, a private security contractor, a freelance combat unit.  The goons you hire if you need somethig taken care of.  Sometimes, incorectly, translated "bodyguard" (because most modern bodyguards are private contractors, as were some in the ancient world).  A job description for anybody who worked in a combat role but who was not sworn to loyalty.  This would probably include most unemployed ashigaru, and some ronin, and any thugs who decided to "go straight" and work for legal organizations.  The kind of people that merchants would hire to guard a caravan.


Anyway, that and cleaning up the item file will take some time.  I'm working on it, but it's not the kind of thing you can throw together in a few minutes.  This will also be a good time to re-arm all the troops - fix any little bugs like armored troops being barefoot.  And to clean up some bugs in the item file, so we can tell what we're doing in the future.

Looks like I have my work cut out for me.
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on August 18, 2008, 11:20:48 am
While making suggestions on the troop trees I had a few related ideas/suggestions:

* If one is playing as a "bushi" (i.e. an established samurai, someone who the head of the Yamana or Hosokawa clan would actually deign to give audience to and give an opportunity to prove one's worth), one should probably start out with a small estate somewhere on the map.  This estate would be the actual source of part of your weekly wage, though one would typically receive a yearly stipend in addition to this.

* Ultimately this estate should be defendable and expandable through diplomatic and/or military means.  (This could either be abstracted, e.g. you might start out as a landowner in Miyazu and gradually be able to expand the "percentage" of it under your influence -- or it could be represented more literally, by adding lots of "estates" on the map itself which can individually be brokered, defended, and attacked.)

* As a landowner, one would have a right to a labour corvée -- which included military service at this time.  Thus one should be able to recruit raw ashigaru from one's own estate, at the expense of a labour pool for other projects (and possibly some "discontent" that needs to be managed).

* One should be able to receive land grands as reward from your assigned shugo.  This will probably result in having scattered holdings across the map, which is 100% historically appropriate.

* The amount of land you control would affect your income, which would both affect your prestige (Mr. Bigbucks is going to get more word-of-mouth acknowledgment than Mr. Pocketchange -- even if it just attracts golddiggers), as well as directly affect your ability to hire and retain quality troops (i.e. your ability to pay them).

* It would be fascinating if there were a way to "convert" a troop into an NPC as a promotion option, and give them land grants as rewards (on which you'd still collect a portion of tax revenues).  Even just being able to reward troops with cash would be fun.

* One possible way of opening that up would be tracking "kills" on the field.  E.g. if your group of honshaku (veteran ashigaru) accumulates more than N kills in a battle, an option opens up to allow you to promote one of them to an NPC.  The name could be selected at random from a list, so e.g. during a battle you might see a message scroll by such as "Keikihei Musashi has distinguished himself on the field!" and upon "talking" to that group, one sees the dialogue option "Speak with Musashi."  Clicking that could give some predetermined dialogue scripts (e.g. to promote to an NPC or to reward with an outlay of cash).

* Promotions and rewards could positively boost morale as well: your miuchi all see that you're a generous individual who gives his samurai their due, and are apt to share at least a little of a reward with each other (even if it's just buying everyone a round of sake at the next inn-stop).

* I've suggested before, it would be very historically appropriate to have the sakaya serve as loan brokers as well.  Floating debt was very typical in this era.  If the game can track your total landholdings (currently abstracted as shōen shares), this would be the base amount you could float -- e.g. 100 mon per shōen share.  A certain percentage of that debt would need to be paid in interest each week (or month?), say 2% -- thus if you had 100 shōen shares and a full debt of 10,000 mon, you'd have to fork over 2,000 mon regularly or face negative consequences.  Those consequences could include loss of prestige, automatic collection after a certain point, high-end bandits chasing after you to "collect," etc.  (I'm resuggesting this now, because using historical prices for the troops make going into debt an increasing possibility -- and shōen improvements or other major outlays might make it really handy to let one spread out an expense over a long game period.)

OK, lots of ideas there.  Half are probably already on the table, and the other half are probably impossible... but I thought I'd chime in anyway.  Too bad I wouldn't even know where to start with the needed M&B Script...
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 18, 2008, 12:11:54 pm
While making suggestions on the troop trees I had a few related ideas/suggestions:

Some comments...

Quote
* If one is playing as a "bushi" (i.e. an established samurai, someone who the head of the Yamana or Hosokawa clan would actually deign to give audience to and give an opportunity to prove one's worth), one should probably start out with a small estate somewhere on the map.  This estate would be the actual source of part of your weekly wage, though one would typically receive a yearly stipend in addition to this.

This would be trivial with the current system of shoen, as it would be easy enough to create some pre-existing shoen and given the player shares of it. I would not like to have a separate system of estates, however, as the interaction between them and shoen could get weird fast

Quote
* Ultimately this estate should be defendable and expandable through diplomatic and/or military means.  (This could either be abstracted, e.g. you might start out as a landowner in Miyazu and gradually be able to expand the "percentage" of it under your influence -- or it could be represented more literally, by adding lots of "estates" on the map itself which can individually be brokered, defended, and attacked.)

This might work, but they would have to be limited in number, or we get a map full of icons. I'd be more inclined to expand the current shoen system to include the above capabilities. Right now, there is onyl one shoen per municipality, so we wouldn't clutter the map too much. I'd want a new icon for them if we go this route though, something farm looking.

Quote
* As a landowner, one would have a right to a labour corvée -- which included military service at this time.  Thus one should be able to recruit raw ashigaru from one's own estate, at the expense of a labour pool for other projects (and possibly some "discontent" that needs to be managed).

Once could draw from the municipality the shoen is attached to, and unrest is already around.

Quote
* One should be able to receive land grands as reward from your assigned shugo.  This will probably result in having scattered holdings across the map, which is 100% historically appropriate.

Again, not difficult.

Quote
* The amount of land you control would affect your income, which would both affect your prestige (Mr. Bigbucks is going to get more word-of-mouth acknowledgment than Mr. Pocketchange -- even if it just attracts golddiggers), as well as directly affect your ability to hire and retain quality troops (i.e. your ability to pay them).

Agreed. It wouldn't be hard to tally up either the number of shares a player holds, or the number of shoen a player is a shareholder of, and use that to calculate soem renown bonus.

Quote
* It would be fascinating if there were a way to "convert" a troop into an NPC as a promotion option, and give them land grants as rewards (on which you'd still collect a portion of tax revenues).  Even just being able to reward troops with cash would be fun.

This is not possible. NPCs are a fixed entry in the troops file, not dynamically generated like the parties.

Quote
* I've suggested before, it would be very historically appropriate to have the sakaya serve as loan brokers as well.  Floating debt was very typical in this era.  If the game can track your total landholdings (currently abstracted as shōen shares), this would be the base amount you could float -- e.g. 100 mon per shōen share.  A certain percentage of that debt would need to be paid in interest each week (or month?), say 2% -- thus if you had 100 shōen shares and a full debt of 10,000 mon, you'd have to fork over 2,000 mon regularly or face negative consequences.  Those consequences could include loss of prestige, automatic collection after a certain point, high-end bandits chasing after you to "collect," etc.  (I'm resuggesting this now, because using historical prices for the troops make going into debt an increasing possibility -- and shōen improvements or other major outlays might make it really handy to let one spread out an expense over a long game period.)

I'd still like to pursue this, but it'll have to be a second-tier project right now. I'd like to get all the bugs worked out of the new economy system (which WORKS, btw), and deal with all the usual bugs a new release brings, plus add some quest/story content so we make some progress on that front also

Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Aethelwyn on August 18, 2008, 12:46:07 pm
Cool that the basic building blocks are already there for most of this :)  And I'm well aware that a lot of my suggestions are "down the road" anyway.

As for the troop upgrades to NPCs -- would it be possible to have a list of "pre-made" templates that could then be called one wants to promote a random party member?  The number would need to be large (maybe 100 or so), but perhaps that could solve the problem with parties being non-dynamic.  Then again, I don't know how vital an idea it is -- cool, sure, but if there are other ways to reward troops for flavour's and gameplay's sake, that that's fine by me.  It's just an idea to toss around anyway for "down the road." ;)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Porter1982 on August 19, 2008, 11:18:47 am
I am really enjoying this mod and I want to thank everyone who put their work into it. I had a slight problem with one of the quests though. Not sure if it is a bug or if it is WAD. I picked up Shinbo from Enkan-ji (sp?) and talked to the monastery leader and picked up a quest to kill mountain bandits. I immediately set about the task...but it seems as though I need to kill 1000s of them to complete the quest. From watching the progress meter, it looks like I gain about 5% for every 100 mountain bandits I kill!

I have currently spent my play time for the past 3 days doing nothing but killing mountain bandits for several hours trying to complete the quest. I am at 81% progress right now after spending approximately 9-10 hours doing nothing but killing mountain bandits. On the plus side, my character is now at lvl 26 and most of my troops that have survived the rigors of combat are maxed out. I'm just wondering whether the quest was intended to force the player to kill so many bandits or if this is a bug? Thanks in advance for any reply!
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 19, 2008, 11:31:08 am
No, that's behaving as design.  :D

Glad you enjoy the mod
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Porter1982 on August 19, 2008, 12:04:31 pm
No, that's behaving as design.  :D

Glad you enjoy the mod

I hope there is a big sack full of good karma that I get at the end of this quest....although a giant buddha would be acceptable a well  ;)

Can't wait to go home and kill the remaining 400 bandits and see what I get..... 8)
Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: MicroZer on June 12, 2009, 02:15:56 am
                  I enjoy the mod too is there any other mod that is not yet posted here?



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Title: Re: General Suggestions
Post by: Ichimonji Hidetora on June 12, 2009, 10:39:52 am
                  I enjoy the mod too is there any other mod that is not yet posted here?



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