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Mount&Blade Expansion => Mod Graveyard => A Song of Ice & Fire => Topic started by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:06:59 am

Title: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:06:59 am
I've decided to copy here most posts from an old topic, since I assume that we still will discuss this subject a lot in future.

I've thinked a lot about troops' trees tweaking, and wanna to seek your advice about some my ideas.

IMHO, at the moment of game start, not each of Seven Kingdoms have it's own culture. I should say, that only Dorne, Iron Isles and North have own cultures. All other kingdoms share the common westeross culture and main difference in their armies determined mainly by their lords' politics, not by some cultural traditions.
So, it seems to be quite logical to forsake separate unit trees for each kingdom and instead to have a set of basic troops types like militia, mercenaries, knights etc.
Inside of each basic type will be a small (2-4 tiers) upgrade tree, and each kingdom will have an army based on some unique set of that basic types.

For example...
  • Basic militia:
    • Peasant. Base unit. Worst leather armor, clubs, knives and pitchforks.
      Upgradeable to spearman or archer.
    • Spearman. Better leather armor, spear, decent combat skills.
      Upgradeable to swordsman or light horseman.
    • Archer. Better leather armor, basic bow, decent combat skills.
      Upgradeable to ranger or crossbowman.
    • Swordsman. Mail armor, shield, sword, good combat skills.
      Upgradeable to plate swordsman.
    • Light horseman. Good leather armor, pike, longsword, horse, good combat skills.
      Upgradeable to heavy horseman.
    • Ranger. Good leather armor, longbow, good combat skills.
    • Crossbowman. Good leather armor, crossbow, good combat skills.
    • Plate swordsman. Basic plate armor, sword or mace, shield, good combat skills.
    • Heavy horseman. Mail armor, pike, longsword, horse, good combat skills.
  • Basic knights:
    • Squire. Good leather armor, sword or mace, shield, low combat skills.
      Upgradeable to hedge knight or knight.
    • Hedge Knight. Decent  plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, good combat skills. Not so expensive.
      Upgradeable to veteran hedge knight.
    • Knight. Good plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, good combat skills. Quite expensive.
      Upgradeable to champion.
    • Veteran Hedge Knight. Good plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, good combat skills. Not so expensive.
    • Champion. Better plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, better combat skills. Very expensive.
  • Northern militia:
    • Hunter. Base unit. Worst leather armor, crude bow, axe.
      Upgradeable to axeman or archer(basic militia).
    • Axeman. Good leather armor, axe.
      Upgradeable to veteran axeman or light horseman(basic militia).
    • Veteran axeman. Good mail armor, axe.
      Upgradeable to man-at-arms.
    • Man-at-arms. Best mail armor, axe, best combat skills.
  • Dornish militia:
    • Dornish spearman. Base unit. Worst leather armor, throwing spears, pike, worst combat skills.
      Upgradeable to veteran spearman or archer(basic militia).
    • Veteran spearman. Good leather armor, throwing spears, pike, good combat skills.
      Upgradeable to dornish horseman or mounted archer.
    • Dornish horseman. Good mail armor, throwing spears, light lance, longsword, horse, good combat skills.
      Upgradeable to heavy horseman(basic militia).
    • Mounted archer. Best leather armor, shortbow, horse, excellent combat skills.
      Upgradeable to veteran mounted archer.
    • Veteran mounted archer. Good mail armor. best shortbow, horse, extraordinary combat skills.
  • Iron Isles militia:
    • Сabin boy. Base unit. Worst leather or even cloth armor, knife or axe.
      Upgradeable to sailor.
    • Sailor. Cheap mail armor, sword or axe.
      Upgradeable to raider.
    • Raider. Decent mail armor, sword or axe.
      Upgradeable to manhunter or finger dancer.
    • Manhunter. Good mail armor, sword or axe, cheap horse.
    • Finger dancer. Good mail armor, throwing axes.
  • Iron Isles nobility:
    • Ironman Noble. Good mail armor, sword or axe, good combat skills.
      Upgradeable to captain or drowned man.
    • Captain. Plate armor, sword or axe, better combat skills.
    • Drowned man. Cloth armor, sword or axe, extraordinary combat skills, ironflash max.

So, Starks army will have northern militia and basic knights without hedge knights. Lannisters - basic militia and basic knights with main focus on hedge knights. Tyrells - the same, but with focus on true knights. Etc.

This is only an example, I haven't spent any time to balancing at all.

How do you think, is this idea usable, or it's better to leave troops' trees as they are?
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:07:40 am
Looks pretty good so far, it can be tweaked more once people actually play the game.

Note: Ironmen should have very few horseman, which I think you did. Maybe instead of giving manhunters horses, give them only to the nobility. Maybe you can change the Drowned man name to something else. In the book they seemed to be more like priests, dressed in wool with wooden cudgels. Maybe change it to Reaver or something like that.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:08:07 am
I've thinked a lot about troops' trees tweaking, and wanna to seek your advice about some my ideas.

IMHO, at the moment of game start, not each of Seven Kingdoms have it's own culture. I should say, that only Dorne, Iron Isles and North have own cultures. All other kingdoms share the common westeross culture and main difference in their armies determined mainly by their lords' politics, not by some cultural traditions.
So, it seems to be quite logical to forsake separate unit trees for each kingdom and instead to have a set of basic troops types like militia, mercenaries, knights etc.
Inside of each basic type will be a small (2-4 tiers) upgrade tree, and each kingdom will have an army based on some unique set of that basic types.

So, Starks army will have northern militia and basic knights without hedge knights. Lannisters - basic militia and basic knights with main focus on hedge knights. Tyrells - the same, but with focus on true knights. Etc.

This is only an example, I haven't spent any time to balancing at all.

How do you think, is this idea usable, or it's better to leave troops' trees as they are?

It would certainly need balancing, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.
I would make a clearer distinction between the lowborn and highborn (so to speak).
Peasant militia, which would be the troops you recruit from villages, should never really become that powerful. Swords, chain mail etc would be very expensive, much more than your usual farmer would be able to afford, and as such, shouldn't really appear that often among them(much less plate armour).

Perhaps something like this (for the 'main' troops. Dorne, the Iron Isles, and in some ways the North, might have slightly different structures):
  • Peasant Militia - Conscripts, levies, guardsmen, etc... Lightly armed and armoured, and with little training, compared to the others. No plate, very little chain, mostly armed with spears, crossbows, bows, few swords, etc... Mostly light infantry and archers, but could include some light cavalry as well.
  • Men-at-Arms - 'Professional' Soldiers. Better training, arms and armour. For armour, mostly chain, maybe some plate for the heavier troops. Made up mostly of heavier infantry and some cavalry.
  • Knights - (For lack of a better word.)Squires, knights etc. These would be the best in terms of both training and equipment. A mixture of heavy chain mail and plate armour, but mostly mounted troops, unlike the men-at-arms tree.
3-5 Tiers in each, with the top tier of one being compareable to the 2nd or 3rd of the next in level, stats, etc.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:08:35 am
That actually sounds pretty good. The peasant militia would be the cheapest to recruit and would make up the bulk of the Lords army, around 50% or so. I think they can be recruited from villages only. The men-at-arm should be mercenary troops I think, recruitable at taverns. They should be more expensive but better fighters than the militia. And then the knights, should be recruitable only in castles. They would be the best, but very expensive and make up around 20% of the army.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:08:59 am
That actually sounds pretty good. The peasant militia would be the cheapest to recruit and would make up the bulk of the Lords army, around 50% or so. I think they can be recruited from villages only. The men-at-arm should be mercenary troops I think, recruitable at taverns. They should be more expensive but better fighters than the militia. And then the knights, should be recruitable only in castles. They would be the best, but very expensive and make up around 20% of the army.

I'd put mercenaries as a seperate tree, actually. They would be troops of all types, but with dramatically increased recruitment cost and wages compared to regular ones (50-100% higher for essentially the same unit(different name, equipment, etc... but essentially the same type of unit)). Men-at-arms would be recruitable in castles and cities, if that is possible.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:09:28 am
That actually sounds pretty good. The peasant militia would be the cheapest to recruit and would make up the bulk of the Lords army, around 50% or so. I think they can be recruited from villages only. The men-at-arm should be mercenary troops I think, recruitable at taverns. They should be more expensive but better fighters than the militia. And then the knights, should be recruitable only in castles. They would be the best, but very expensive and make up around 20% of the army.

I'd put mercenaries as a seperate tree, actually. They would be troops of all types, but with dramatically increased recruitment cost and wages compared to regular ones (50-100% higher for essentially the same unit(different name, equipment, etc... but essentially the same type of unit)). Men-at-arms would be recruitable in castles and cities, if that is possible.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:09:54 am
IDK man-at-arms sort of seem like mercenary troops to me. They are professional soldiers, like mercenary's, who basicly go from war to war.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:10:17 am
IDK man-at-arms sort of seem like mercenary troops to me. They are professional soldiers, like mercenary's, who basicly go from war to war.
Well, I was thinking more of soldiers serving directly under some lord or another, rather than drifting from war to war. I mean, strictly speaking all professional soldiers could be considered mercenaries, but we still don't think of them as such, do we?  :wink:
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:10:41 am
The basic idea seems good to me, but I agree that peasants shouldn´t be upgradeable into heavy horsemen, which should be reserved for nobility. The only horsemen (if any) that could come from militia would be some sort of scouts, throwning weapons/hunting crossbows, leather, cheap melee. Instead, the upgrade from spearmen would be pikemen/halbardiers. For reqruitement of nobility solved in a nice way, refer to the TLD influencesystem. You wouldn´t have to go that far, but a good standing with your faction+good renown could make squires/hedgeknights reqruiteable from your lord. The mercs should be crossbow/longbow marksmen, men-at-arms on foot, halbards and hedgeknights.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 26, 2008, 05:11:29 am
About troops' trees...

After reading all posts, I'm thinking, that there should be 3 main categories:
  • Lowborn militia - could be hired in villages, cheap, bad armor and combat skills even at higher upgrade levels. Have several troops' trees, depending on region (Basic, Dorne, North, Iron Isles)
  • Mercenaries - could be hired in taverns, quite expensive, good armor and combat skills. Have several troops' trees, depending on profession (Melee, Ranged, Mounted). Maybe, Brave Companions mechanics could be used here instead of original upgrade mechanics. Or, maybe, Companions could be just another additional tree.
  • Warriors of oath - professional soldiers and nobility. Could be hired only from prisoners and in player's own castles/cities. Not so expensive as mercenaries, almost as good in combat as them. Maybe a bit better, but not much. No upgrade trees at all or very small (no more then 2-3 positions) ones.

Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: BloodLuster on March 27, 2008, 01:31:22 pm
It's not a tweak for troops it's more estetic what am about to suggest but I thought it could be posted here!

I like to play Mount&Blade without any information in the window (except the Health Bar and the shield condition thingy,that I find rather annoying) including no names for friendly units (it's more realistic I think) so I would like to see the different faction with the different colors.
For example the Starks the only thing I remembered reading about their armor is that they use chain mail armor with grey capes and the Lannisters use a variation of red which I don't know the name in English.
That's my opinion.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: monsterfurby on March 27, 2008, 03:03:34 pm
Yes, faction soldiers should definitely be "color coded". What I am especially missing is the Rainbow- and Kingsguards' coloured/white cloak. It would make sense to me if, aside from the knights, other troops would also wear the colors of the house they belonged to.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: shevchenko65 on March 27, 2008, 06:23:27 pm
I think Sparehawk said that the problem with that is that he needs someone to provide the graphics for each faction.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on March 28, 2008, 03:15:10 am
I've seen a free modder's art-pack featuring coloured surcoats on this site. Perhaps you'll have use for it in your mod?

Here's a link:

http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,1021.0.html
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: monsterfurby on March 28, 2008, 03:47:44 am
That would certainly be a step ahead. Also adding in the crest of the houses would not be that much of a problem. I'll see if I find the time to do it.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: shevchenko65 on March 28, 2008, 08:37:52 am
Since army dynamics were so similar between all the factions, would it be possible just to make one line of knights (instead of the Tyrell and Barantheon and Westernos knights) and just have the only difference between them is that they adapt the colors of the Lord in whose army they are in. So say Tywin's knights will be all decked out in red and gold with liions, but if they get captured and switch sides and fight for Mace Tyrell they will be in green with flowers on them. So they are still all same troops with same stats, but they just look differently.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on March 28, 2008, 08:50:37 am
Since army dynamics were so similar between all the factions, would it be possible just to make one line of knights (instead of the Tyrell and Barantheon and Westernos knights) and just have the only difference between them is that they adapt the colors of the Lord in whose army they are in. So say Tywin's knights will be all decked out in red and gold with liions, but if they get captured and switch sides and fight for Mace Tyrell they will be in green with flowers on them. So they are still all same troops with same stats, but they just look differently.

Cute, but technically an issue.  The only way to make different colors of equipment is with different items.  And the only way to determine which item troops use is by having different troops.

We went through this with Onin-no-Ran ... the samurai are identical units for the various sides, except they have to be different troop types, and each one get the color of his side.

It should be possible to rig a script that will trade one for the other... but in the item file, they still have to be different troops.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: ser Jeekim on March 28, 2008, 12:26:15 pm
Yeah, that is how it should work.
We would need to devise this kind of script anyway, if we want the Others to turn their prisoners into Wights...
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 28, 2008, 04:12:35 pm
Since army dynamics were so similar between all the factions, would it be possible just to make one line of knights (instead of the Tyrell and Barantheon and Westernos knights) and just have the only difference between them is that they adapt the colors of the Lord in whose army they are in. So say Tywin's knights will be all decked out in red and gold with liions, but if they get captured and switch sides and fight for Mace Tyrell they will be in green with flowers on them. So they are still all same troops with same stats, but they just look differently.

Cute, but technically an issue.  The only way to make different colors of equipment is with different items.  And the only way to determine which item troops use is by having different troops.

We went through this with Onin-no-Ran ... the samurai are identical units for the various sides, except they have to be different troop types, and each one get the color of his side.

It should be possible to rig a script that will trade one for the other... but in the item file, they still have to be different troops.

Yes, it's not too comfortable for modder to have a dozens of nearly identical units, but I can't see any other way to do it in current game architecture realization. :(
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Phelerox on March 29, 2008, 05:16:52 pm
Hm.. In my opinion the Ironborn should have way less horses.. I don't recall any situation in the books where the Ironborn use horses in battle.. It's sort of against their culture, so even if the nobility would have acccess to horses (though with very limited skills in horsemanship), it is still highly unlikely that they would use them in battle [Perhaps for scouting though?], since that would logically decrease the morale of the men. Furthermore, what's an "Ironborn Capitan"? (You have mistyped the troopname, though that is no major sin.) ;)
Anyway, everything else so far; Awesome!
[Version 0.42]
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on March 30, 2008, 07:20:07 am
I say you should keep the current troop configuration (Westerland troops, Stormland troops etc.) and give the surcoats shown in the link I provided above to most mid-tier troops of said faction (since they are most common) so that they would be easier to recognize on the field by those who don't use name tags to highlight friendly troops. Thus, the red surcoat can be modified to bear a Lannister lion on its breast and be used generally by Westerland infantrymen and horsemen (maybe some poorer knights?), the grey surcoat can bear a Stark direwolf on its breast, and be used by most northmen troops, the green surcoat could be used by the Tyrells and have a the Tyrell rose on its breast and the somewhat yellow surcoat could be used by either the mid-tier Stormland or the Dornishmen. I'd say Stormland troops more, since Dornishmen should look more exotic than your run-of-the-mill Westerosi man-at-arms. In the case of Stormland troops, a Baratheon stag on the breast should fit perfectly.

Perhaps the blue surcoat could be used by the troops of the Vale? As far as I knew, the colours of House Arryn were blue and silver. Add a silver eagle and a moon on the surcoat and you're done imo.

So what do you think of my plan? It should make differentiating troops far easier but at the same time keep the level of variety mostly the same. I mean, not all mid-tier troops need wear the surcoats. Some could wear other armour, as long as the overall look remains the same. And all you have to do, is give them a different piece of equipment. Now, I don't know how equipment is assigned but I guess the A.I. chooses randomly from a selection of equipment, since troops of the same type don't always look the same as they did in previous versions of Mount & Blade.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on March 30, 2008, 07:38:01 am
M&B has always selected items for the troops randomly from the list for that unit type in the "troops" file.  You can force it to pick something of a particular type, say armor or a ranged weapon, just to make sure that archers don't accidentally come out with no bows ... but you have to make sure, for example, that all archers have bows but no other ranged weapons in their stack.  How much variation you get is just a question of how many possibilities you give to the troop type.

Some earlier versions of Native had very limited selection for certain troops ... about the first thing modders did was add a few items to get greater variation.  More recent Native versions have picked up on that somewhat, but there was no real change in the mechanism.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on March 30, 2008, 07:49:43 am
Here is a good example of a wide variety of surcoats which, I'd say, would be very useful for a pseudo-medieval setting like that of ASoIaF. Seeing as almost everyone and their grandma has their own coat-of-arms and family colours, I think heraldic surcoats would prove useful on the field, at least to identify the leaders of the enemy host by the distinct colours of their surcoats and the barding of their horse, which should differentiate from that of most mid and low-tier troops. Anyway, here's the link:

http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,33839.0.html

This mod is called Heraldic Calradia and it adds a lot of heraldic items which go with both horses and equipment worn by the player character. It also adds banners that the player can choose which also go with the armour and horse barding. All in all, you can make yourself a worthy knight with the heraldry to show for it. The first post has a fair bit of screenshots, but I think it's only fit to show the scope of all the heraldic equipment and items.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on March 30, 2008, 02:18:26 pm
I was just going to post that link but I have been out of my country for a few days. :)

To me it seems to be the best way to work out the troop tree problem. This way you can get a mix of basic troop tree (villagers, mercenaries and hedge&sworn knights) and some special trees for Dorne, Ironmen and maybe the North (mainly equipment and troop names differences)... and have a smooth way to recognize troops while fighting. Furthermore, each lord would have his men dressed with his banner instead the main faction banner. But dunno if it's to do as my mod skills are really poor.

The problem of this is the lack of variety as almost every faction would have the same troops, thus, no focusing in one area (as Vaegirs in archery or Swadians in heavy cavalry).

IMO there should be two different trees for shooters, bowmen and crossbowmen as the first requires lots of training to get a decent accuracy but it has a greater fire rate and the second has the advantage of inmediatelly having tons of decent accuracy shooters with good stopping power but low fire rate. I mean, it makes no sense that a novice crossbowman becomes a marksman with the bow after a couple of battles or vice versa.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on March 30, 2008, 06:57:38 pm
No logical reason for a connection, or lack thereof, between accuracy and rate of fire.  Unlike automatic rifles, where recoil throws off your next shot, it just takes a certain block of time to pull out an arrow, draw the bow and release.  With a bow, you can't aim for longer than a second or two, because you are holding the bow at full draw.

Plus rate of fire is an attribute of the bow - the only way to set that up is to give one group short bows and the other long bows.  That is an option - especially when you're talking about mixing longbows and crossbows ... a few very heavy crossbows for the range and knock-down, mixed with a force of much faster firing conventional longbows to keep the pressure on continuously.  A common trick really used when defending castle walls.

In the ancient world, armies generally hired their archers from woodsmen, hunters, and farm boys who had been using a bow all their lives.  Therefore, accuracy was not their big problem - the military issue was just getting them to march in a straight line, and not break and run when things got hot.

Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 31, 2008, 05:18:50 am
Just for visual information... Currently used troops' trees:

Lannisters
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Lannisters.gif)
Tyrrels
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Tyrells.gif)
Martells
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Martells.gif)
Baratheons
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Baratheons.gif)
Starks
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Starks.gif)
Digits in brackets are troops' level.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on March 31, 2008, 05:53:56 am
Question:

The Northern Recruit - possible to upgrade to either Footman (level 10) or archer (level 14) - does that upgrade properly?  Does it give both upgrade options at the same time, or does the first one to appear overwrite the other?  Because I've never seen an upgrade done that way, with options of dissimilar levels, and I sort of suspect that there might be a reason.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on March 31, 2008, 07:09:23 am
No logical reason for a connection, or lack thereof, between accuracy and rate of fire.  Unlike automatic rifles, where recoil throws off your next shot, it just takes a certain block of time to pull out an arrow, draw the bow and release.  With a bow, you can't aim for longer than a second or two, because you are holding the bow at full draw.

There is, but not due the same reason. English is not my main language so maybe I'm not explaining myself properly.

Rate of fire: reloading a crossbow takes a while, you need to put it down to the floor (the heavy ones), put your foot on it and turn the lever with both hands until the "bolt container" is back to fire position. Then close the "lock" and put the bolt on it. A bow just requires to catch an arrow, pull it back and release.

Aiming and accuracy: in battles, archers usually didn't shoot directly to a man. They shot at the mass of men in a parabolic trajectory. Trained archers start to aim as they bring the bow to fire position. I mean, in the same movement they pull back the arrow, aim and reach fire position. So they can release the arrow after 1 or 2 seconds or even less if they do indirect fire.

A mid-trained shooter can get a decent accuracy with a crossbow for some reasons. It is shot like a rifle, easier than a bow; you don't have to keep the pull, so can take all the time you need without any effort; and you may have the aid from some primitive aiming device. That was the reason crossbows and after gunpowder weapons took over in the battlefields: you get a good fire power just equipping recruits with those weapons. They don't need a long time training, they become veterans as they fight and survive.


In the ancient world, armies generally hired their archers from woodsmen, hunters, and farm boys who had been using a bow all their lives.  Therefore, accuracy was not their big problem - the military issue was just getting them to march in a straight line, and not break and run when things got hot.


I didn't said accuracy was a problem for bows, just that it required hard training. It takes years to train a never-miss marksman with a bow but once they are proficient, they achieve a good accuracy.

And as farmers and villagers in medieval age (feudalism?) weren't allowed to carry military weapons or to hunt in their lord's properties I don't think every villager was proficient with bows. So on, hunters had a special permission to hunt in their lords properties and helped him when he was gone to hunt. I think in a 100 people village (50% male), a maximun of 10 would be hunters IMO as fields&cattle demanded a lot of people.

I'd compare it to man-at-arms and farmer-levies: man-at-arms are trained and more effective but a Lord has tons of villagers to create levies. A Lord has less trained archers with a higher rate fire but has tons of farmers with crossbows that shot slower.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on March 31, 2008, 11:38:27 am
You mean levy troops right? Not leaves.

Anyway, there are some things about that troop tree that I think need changing Sparehawk. First of all, I think the jump in the Lannister troops from Westerland footman directly to Westerland knight is too sudden. I think there should be an intermediate stage between footman and knight, like horseman followed by squire or some such system. And the dornishmen prefer the bow instead of the crossbow, so I don't see why Dornish troops should have crossbowmen in their ranks instead of archers and bowmen. As for the Baratheons, I find the inclusion of horse archers in their ranks to be rather...odd. I never saw it mentioned in the books that there were horse archers of any kind in Westeros, let alone the fact that House Baratheon had them in their ranks. I think there were horse archers in Dorne, though, so maybe you should outfit them with horse archers like the ones the Baratheons currently.

Just as well, shouldn't the Rainbow Guard be part of the Tyrell faction? I mean, Renly was their leader and all and his main support were the Tyrells and their bannermen. The Storm lords and Marcher lords as well, but the Tyrell bannermen made up most of his host.

My main question, however, is what is the actual troop system you'll be using for the next version? This is the troop system for the current release of the mod, but what of the next one?
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on March 31, 2008, 11:49:51 am
You mean levy troops right? Not leaves.


Ooops  :green:. Yes, I'm gonna change it to avoid possible misunderstandings.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 31, 2008, 01:04:10 pm
Question:

The Northern Recruit - possible to upgrade to either Footman (level 10) or archer (level 14) - does that upgrade properly?  Does it give both upgrade options at the same time, or does the first one to appear overwrite the other?  Because I've never seen an upgrade done that way, with options of dissimilar levels, and I sort of suspect that there might be a reason.

Good question. Need to check.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 31, 2008, 01:39:29 pm
My main question, however, is what is the actual troop system you'll be using for the next version? This is the troop system for the current release of the mod, but what of the next one?

It's a system from version 0.4.2.
I wanna change it to something like what I've described in first post in this topic. With latest remarks, of course.

I assume, basic part for lowborn (except iron isles troops) could be like this:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/lowborn.gif)

That is a tree for player's troops. Kingdoms will have a copies of units from this tree, with colored coats. If player will obtain any kingdom's unit under his command, that unit will be converted to it's base version.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on March 31, 2008, 01:46:32 pm
So, um, no knights? How can a player get knights in his party then? I suppose there are knights in the game world, just that they are harder to recruit, right?
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on March 31, 2008, 02:02:32 pm
So, um, no knights? How can a player get knights in his party then? I suppose there are knights in the game world, just that they are harder to recruit, right?

It's a tree for lowborn - peasants, militia, that could be hired in villages.
There also will be separate trees for mercenaries (quite good warriors, but not cheap; could be hired in taverns) and nobles (almost as good as mercenaries, maybe even a bit better and not so expensive; could be hired in castles, owned by player - or from prisoners, but that will require good charisma)
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Jheral on March 31, 2008, 02:47:11 pm
It's a system from version 0.4.2.
I wanna change it to something like what I've described in first post in this topic. With latest remarks, of course.

I assume, basic part for lowborn (except iron isles troops) could be like this:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/lowborn.gif)

That is a tree for player's troops. Kingdoms will have a copies of units from this tree, with colored coats. If player will obtain any kingdom's unit under his command, that unit will be converted to it's base version.

That looks very good, actually. Perhaps a bit more powerful than I'd hoped for 'lowborn' troops, but I still like it. What are your plans for the ironborn?
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on March 31, 2008, 03:52:24 pm
Seems nice. Just a couple of question about Northmen. They don't have skirmishers, so no bow/crossbowmen, is that intended? And shouldn't be man-at-atms a common lvl 25 unit instead a special North unit? It is just a matter of names, I like the tree.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: ser Jeekim on March 31, 2008, 03:53:23 pm
Archers and Crossbowmen as alternative trees..?
In game terms that might not make very much sense... since crossbows have much lower rate of fire, one would probably always prefer archers.
I´d like more if distinction between bow and crossbow was faction-specific. Say, bows just for Dorne(?) and Northmen and crossbows for others.

Also, I see with pity that Dorne would no more get heavy infantry... sniff. Those Sarges are pretty cool... :(

Actually, transition spearman -->mounted archer seems strange as well. I would propose, that Dorne would have mtd archer as upgrade from skirmisher instead of either crossbowman or archer; and from spearman alternative upgrades horseman and infantry.

Just my small idea.

@Nahadiel: look closer, North has skirmishers as well :)
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Jheral on March 31, 2008, 11:20:23 pm
Actually, transition spearman -->mounted archer seems strange as well. I would propose, that Dorne would have mtd archer as upgrade from skirmisher instead of either crossbowman or archer; and from spearman alternative upgrades horseman and infantry.

I'd say that they should branch off from Dornish Horseman or Archer (or both. OnR has this on some of their troops; different upgrade paths to the same troop type).

I guess the idea was to make them exclusive to Dorne, but keep the troop tree to only 4 tiers for all branches.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on March 31, 2008, 11:28:15 pm
Archers and crossbows can stay different trees, for two good reasons.  One is logical - they are very different skills, and it is highly unlikely that one would want to change to the other.  Two, once the RCM stats are ready (hopefully tomorrow), the two are very different weapons - the crossbows being anti-armor, and the longbows being more general-purpose.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 01, 2008, 03:26:54 am
I´d like more if distinction between bow and crossbow was faction-specific. Say, bows just for Dorne(?) and Northmen and crossbows for others.

There will be some of distinction in armies' composition of different kingdoms. Not every kingdom's army will have all available troops types. For example, I assume that there will be very a few (or even will be not at all) crossbowmen in Stark's army. But it's not mean, that player can't teach his northern recruits to use crossbow. As I've wrote before, it's a question of politic and economic, not of culture. IMHO.

Also, I see with pity that Dorne would no more get heavy infantry... sniff. Those Sarges are pretty cool... :(

Well, I'm not an expert on middle-ages history, but my experience from a lot of role-playing games says me, that southern desert country like Dorne shouldn't have a heavy infantry. And as it was already mentioned here, in books dornishmen are more concentrated on hit-and-run tactics, using high mobile troops, ranged weapons and light armor.

Maybe, Ron can say - if Dorne was copied from arab/muslim countries of real history, which main troops types it should have?

Actually, transition spearman -->mounted archer seems strange as well. I would propose, that Dorne would have mtd archer as upgrade from skirmisher instead of either crossbowman or archer; and from spearman alternative upgrades horseman and infantry.

Just my small idea.

Well, since dornish spearmen was plotted to have both melee spear and throwing spears, I assume that dornish militia has no need to be upgraded to scirmishers. So, from dornish spearman there will be upgrade choices to crossbowman and dornish horseman, who also using both melee weapons and throwing spears.
From dornish horseman will be upgrade choices to mounted archers and traditional heavy horseman.

Remark: Just to avoid misunderstanding, want to remind, that heavy horseman isn't wear plate armor. He wear mail. Light horseman wears leather.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: shevchenko65 on April 01, 2008, 09:12:20 am
You're right about no heavy infantry in Dorne Sparehawk. It was mentioned in the book, by Area Hotah, that anyone in heavy armor would cook in the sun.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on April 01, 2008, 09:58:27 am
If they're modeled after the real Middle East ... well, that could be anything. 

Nubian and other African spearmen were normally light or no armor, usually just spear and shield.  Egypt tried a little harder to armor their troops, but for most of their history, the infantry was mostly light.

While the Mamluk (Saracen, and later several Dynasties in Egypt) were primarily medium horse archers, it would certainly be inaccurate to call their armor light.  They were hit-and-run horse archers, true, but not light.  Same with the Ghulam (warrior-slaves of the Islamic caliphates) - they tended toward heavy lamellar armors and battle axes.  (Many who read about the Crusades period fail to realize that the elite of the Saracens were actually more heavily equipped than their European counterparts.)

On the far extreme were the Persian and Armenian "cataphract" horse.  They were extremely heavily armored, both man and horse ... and while they fell out of use about the time of the Crusades (for unknown reasons, probably economic), they ate alive just about every army they encountered before that, even giving the Legions of Rome the fight of their lives.  However, they were not the backbone of the Persian army - the bulk of the Persians were based around lighter horse archers and light spearmen.  But they weren't something you really needed a whole lot of ... like war elephants, just a few would get just about any enemy commander's undivided attention.

So while the pattern of the Middle East was Asiatic, in the sense of encouraging mobility over durability, it was not a fixed rule nor was the concept uniformly applied.  The idea that all Arab fighters went out there in silk shirts is a myth... many were wearing 60 pounds of very sturdy lamellar armor.

The myth probably got started by observing seagoing pirates.  North Africa has been producing pirates forever, and obviously many sailors tend to be nervous about wearing armor, as it gets real hard to swim if you fall in the ocean.  How the idea of Barbary Coast pirates got expanded to include stories about land-based armies is a mystery.  (Oddly enough, the Japanese navy of this time refused to give up their armor, and just tied themselves to the boat with safety lines.... but that was not so popular in Europe/Africa either.)

However, it is a myth that many fiction writers continue to play upon (because people expect it, and it seems to make sense) ... so just because history won't back that up, don't assume that applies to the novels in question.

But as for temperature control, any armor (leather, steel, or whatever) and probably even unarmored people are going to need a light-colored tabbard or heavy robe of an insulative material (wool is good) to keep the sun off.  The desert sun will cook you, I promise.  (I'm sitting in Xi'an, half way between the Gobi and the Takla Makan - and I don't go out in the summer without a hat.)  But it will cook you no matter what armor you do or do not wear.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on April 01, 2008, 12:57:15 pm
Muslim armies that invaded Iberic Peninsulae wore metal armor indeed. Maybe it is out of the time frame but the Turkish riders known as spahi often wore chainmail with a half-helmet (the other half was covered by mail), bow&arrows and saber.

@Nahadiel: look closer, North has skirmishers as well :)

He he, I'm blind. Anyways I've realized that infatry polearms suck a lot in M&B. I know that infantry in ISOAF wore this stuff but maybe it would better to give them 2 handed weapons? Altough, doing this would somehow ruin some of Northern differences as they heavy infantry is supossed to wear those weapons.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 01, 2008, 01:16:03 pm
Muslim armies that invaded Iberic Peninsulae wore metal armor indeed. Maybe it is out of the time frame but the Turkish riders known as spahi often wore chainmail with a half-helmet (the other half was covered by mail), bow&arrows and saber.

I'm not saying that dornish warriors shouldn't wear metal armor at all, I'm only talking that plate armor should be not so obvious in Dorne as in central Westeros. But chainmails and even lamellar still could be used quite widely.

Anyways I've realized that infatry polearms suck a lot in M&B.

I assume, RCM will fix it.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: ser Jeekim on April 01, 2008, 01:24:03 pm
Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass  :D
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on April 01, 2008, 01:36:27 pm
Muslim armies that invaded Iberic Peninsulae wore metal armor indeed. Maybe it is out of the time frame but the Turkish riders known as spahi often wore chainmail with a half-helmet (the other half was covered by mail), bow&arrows and saber.

I'm not saying that dornish warriors shouldn't wear metal armor at all, I'm only talking that plate armor should be not so obvious in Dorne as in central Westeros. But chainmails and even lamellar still could be used quite widely.


Sorry, when I said metal armor I meant chainmail and maybe lamellar, not plate.

Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass  :D

I meant elite or veteran infantry when I said heavy infantry. In the common troop tree heavy armor and experiencie go together for infatry, but I wasnt talking on armors, just weapons. In the novels there isnt any example of Dornish infantry, Oberyn and his spear is the closest I've seen.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on April 01, 2008, 01:39:12 pm
RCM makes all weapons deadly in their own way, even the small kitchen knives! Believe me when I say that a peasant going for your unarmoured face with his small knife can be just as deadly as a knight thundering down on you with a warhammer in his hands. It happened to me once when I was raiding a village in Pirates of Calradia, which has RCM. Some peasant woman slashed my face with a sickle and it killed me in one hit, since I wasn't wearing a helmet. I've never gone to a battle helmless ever since, be it against peasants or full-fledged knights. RCM taught me my lesson.

Once the RCM is applied here as well, I think us cavalry-oriented players will start avoiding any polearm-wielding infantry. Of course, I've seen examples in Pirates of Calradia of Khergit hosts decimating Rhodok hosts of equal number, and we all know that the Rhodoks sure love their spears and pikes. So, I guess the situation can go both ways.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 01, 2008, 01:41:16 pm
Muslim armies that invaded Iberic Peninsulae wore metal armor indeed. Maybe it is out of the time frame but the Turkish riders known as spahi often wore chainmail with a half-helmet (the other half was covered by mail), bow&arrows and saber.

I'm not saying that dornish warriors shouldn't wear metal armor at all, I'm only talking that plate armor should be not so obvious in Dorne as in central Westeros. But chainmails and even lamellar still could be used quite widely.


Sorry, when I said metal armor I meant chainmail and maybe lamellar, not plate.

Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass  :D

I meant elite or veteran infantry when I said heavy infantry. In the common troop tree heavy armor and experiencie go together for infatry, but I wasnt talking on armors, just weapons. In the novels there isnt any example of Dornish infantry, Oberyn and his spear is the closest I've seen.

Ah, so then were just misunderstanding each other...
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 01, 2008, 01:43:45 pm
Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass  :D

Well, that makes sense. I'll think about it.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 02, 2008, 09:59:56 am
Well, new versions of troops trees.

Lowborn militia tree:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/lowborn-1.gif)

Spearman - foot soldier with a sword and throwing spears.
Sandrider - the same one, but on horse.
Marauder - foot soldier with a crude shield, one-handed axe and throwing axes.
Manhunter and Raider - the same ones, but with better equipment and better skills.

Mercenaries tree:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/mercenaries.gif)

3 branches - shooters, infantry and cavalry. Each branch is limited customizable the same way as Brave Companions now. I.e. you can select yourself, will your shooters use bows, crossbows or some sort of throwing weapons, which melee weapon will use your infantry etc.

Sworn troops:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/oathbound.gif)

I'm still not sure about exact upgrade levels, don't like some names (especially in mercenaries trees) and there should be huge work on equipment assignment, but in a general way I assume it should be something like this.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on April 02, 2008, 12:05:31 pm
In the novels hedge-knights seem to work for money, but I dont like the idea of putting them with mercenaries despite Bronn achieves it after being really loyal to Tyrion and Lannisters.

I think they would be better at the 25 lvl lancer of sworn troops, wouldn't they? A Lord raises knight from his armies rather than from mercenaries I think. They would still be worse than true faction knights.

About the lowborn troop tree. How are you going to get Dornish&Northern horseman to wear different armors if they are in the same tree as common militia? I mean, if it's the same troop for all factions, aren't they going to wear the same equipment?
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: ser Jeekim on April 02, 2008, 01:07:57 pm
Good work, we're making progress!
1) For ironmen, I would just rename "Warrior" into "Sailor" and thus cancel out all alternative upgrades from their main troop tree. Would be nice to keep them really distinct. Also, as Manhunters would no longer have horses, maybe rename them "Pirates"?
2) As you said, upgrade levels sure need tweaking. "Sandrider" (a good name, imho) should probably not be superior to "Veteran Knight"? Perhaps sworn troops should start from higher position? Like their 1st tier would be about equal with miliitia's 2nd tier and from there on, the difference would slowly decrease, but in a way that the best castle troop would be a wee better than the best corresponding lowborn troop.
Smth like: Militia (or Recruit?) 1, Footman 8, Swordsman 17, Plate Swordsman 25
Watchman 10, Castle Guard 17, Pikeman 23, Halberdier 30
Sworn Knight 15; Veteran Knight 25, Champion 32.
Mercenaries could remain as is.
3) I did pretty much like the system in 0.4.1 where each faction has an "extra" upgrade level in a certain troop tree (Tyrells: Highgarden Master Archers, Lannisters Lionguards etc). So while keeping your basic system, we could keep this tradition and add one extra strong troop for each faction to have some diversity. That is, if anybody else likes the idea too.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 03, 2008, 03:39:17 am
In the novels hedge-knights seem to work for money, but I dont like the idea of putting them with mercenaries despite Bronn achieves it after being really loyal to Tyrion and Lannisters.

I assume, really good and loyal mercenary have a quite real chances to achieve a knight title.

I think they would be better at the 25 lvl lancer of sworn troops, wouldn't they? A Lord raises knight from his armies rather than from mercenaries I think. They would still be worse than true faction knights.

Hedge knights is a mercenaries after all, and this is their main difference from sworn knights. And history of Dunk shows, that it's not so important to born in noble family...

About the lowborn troop tree. How are you going to get Dornish&Northern horseman to wear different armors if they are in the same tree as common militia? I mean, if it's the same troop for all factions, aren't they going to wear the same equipment?

Answer is:
That is a tree for player's troops. Kingdoms will have a copies of units from this tree, with colored coats. If player will obtain any kingdom's unit under his command, that unit will be converted to it's base version.

So, the same troops of different kingdoms will have the same name, skills, weapon and armor stats, but appearance of weapons and armor will differ, depending on faction.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 03, 2008, 04:16:33 am
Good work, we're making progress!
1) For ironmen, I would just rename "Warrior" into "Sailor" and thus cancel out all alternative upgrades from their main troop tree. Would be nice to keep them really distinct. Also, as Manhunters would no longer have horses, maybe rename them "Pirates"?

Hm... Not sure I understand you right...
Are you talking about removing upgrade paths to swordsman and veteran axeman for ironborn infrantry?

2) As you said, upgrade levels sure need tweaking. "Sandrider" (a good name, imho) should probably not be superior to "Veteran Knight"? Perhaps sworn troops should start from higher position? Like their 1st tier would be about equal with miliitia's 2nd tier and from there on, the difference would slowly decrease, but in a way that the best castle troop would be a wee better than the best corresponding lowborn troop.
Smth like: Militia (or Recruit?) 1, Footman 8, Swordsman 17, Plate Swordsman 25
Watchman 10, Castle Guard 17, Pikeman 23, Halberdier 30
Sworn Knight 15; Veteran Knight 25, Champion 32.
Mercenaries could remain as is.

Well, I could be wrong, but I've thought that for all non-hero troops, level values means mainly an amount of experience, needed for upgrading to next tier. All equipment, skills and attributes are specified in troops implementation, so troops of equal level could be very differ in total power.

3) I did pretty much like the system in 0.4.1 where each faction has an "extra" upgrade level in a certain troop tree (Tyrells: Highgarden Master Archers, Lannisters Lionguards etc). So while keeping your basic system, we could keep this tradition and add one extra strong troop for each faction to have some diversity. That is, if anybody else likes the idea too.

Not each kingdom's army will have all available troops. This trees are only for player's troops.
So, I assume that Stark's army, for example, will have no rangers or sharpshooters, despite northern militia can upgrade to them. Generally, I assume that each kingdom's army will contain only 6-7 troops types from militia tree.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on April 03, 2008, 06:28:07 am
About the lowborn troop tree. How are you going to get Dornish&Northern horseman to wear different armors if they are in the same tree as common militia? I mean, if it's the same troop for all factions, aren't they going to wear the same equipment?

Answer is:
That is a tree for player's troops. Kingdoms will have a copies of units from this tree, with colored coats. If player will obtain any kingdom's unit under his command, that unit will be converted to it's base version.

So, the same troops of different kingdoms will have the same name, skills, weapon and armor stats, but appearance of weapons and armor will differ, depending on faction.

Thanks.

2) As you said, upgrade levels sure need tweaking. "Sandrider" (a good name, imho) should probably not be superior to "Veteran Knight"? Perhaps sworn troops should start from higher position? Like their 1st tier would be about equal with miliitia's 2nd tier and from there on, the difference would slowly decrease, but in a way that the best castle troop would be a wee better than the best corresponding lowborn troop.
Smth like: Militia (or Recruit?) 1, Footman 8, Swordsman 17, Plate Swordsman 25
Watchman 10, Castle Guard 17, Pikeman 23, Halberdier 30
Sworn Knight 15; Veteran Knight 25, Champion 32.
Mercenaries could remain as is.

Well, I could be wrong, but I've thought that for all non-hero troops, level values means only an amount of experience, needed for upgrading to next tier. All equipment, skills and attributes are specified in troops implementation, so troops of equal level could be very differ in total power.

I was wondering the same so I made some test with Hokie TB wonderfull troop editor. It wasn't a seriously made test not a scientific one. ;) But this is what I got:

In your released ISOAF you used renamed troops from Native, didn't you? I just saw that in the editor almost every troop had the basic stats for low level troops but in the game they didn't; they had higher stats. In the other hand, shooters in troop editor had basic stats but not in Strenght in wich they had a minimun value to be able to met the power draw requirements of the bow they were given. Those shooters in the game had the minumun strengh value or higher and the basic stats for Agi, Int and Cha were also raised.

Looking at different troops in the game they had different stats despit they had the same in troop editor. Furthermore, I get really annoyed every time a poor caravan guard kills a high-level mounted troop just cause almost everyone of them wield spears. I checked their equipment in the editor and I was surprised when I saw they had a lot of variety of weapons. Simply the ramdom variation of basic stats usually doesn't grant them the minimun strength to use most of those weapons while higher level toops can wield them. Then I manually give stats to every troop in the game related to its level and made sure the caravan guards had 13 strenght (so they are able to wield heavy weapons for sure) ; I've noticed that now more caravan guards use heavy weapons and less spears. But I have seen almost no variation in the fixed stats I gave the toops.

That's why I think troop level actually does something.

Appart of this, in Native game some factions have a bit higher level troops at some points of troop tree. Maybe Armagan had a reason to do this.

Not related to this, but has to do something with troops: as I was changing the stats I changed some skills. Now almost every end-troop has 1 or 2 in power strike and 2 or 3 in athletics. I wear a Reinforced Ornate armor and I'm out in 3 hits, I feel myself naked when facing infantry carrying 2 handed weapons. Also I decreased Highgarden archers power draw by 2 in top levels but they still deliver me a 30 damage or more per shot. I just say this cause if Ron's RCM is gonna be deadly, you should think carefully troop skills or every fight will be deadliest.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on April 03, 2008, 06:52:48 am
Troop level does change the stats, exactly the same as if the player increased by that many levels - points added to attributes, skills, and weapons appropriately.

And the RCM will make combat fast and deadly, but it also makes armor effective, and huge oversize weapons slow ... so equipment will likely overshadow statistics by a measurable degree, and not always in exactly the way you might expect.  No degree of being tough (hit points, as it were) will let a person survive being hit in the head with an axe (at least not and keep fighting) ... but a good sturdy helmet has a fair chance of turning such a blow.  Also, a "good" weapon might be good at one thing but poor at another (i.e. fast but poor against armor, or good reach and damage but painfully slow to use).  That's where the balance will be changed.

Fortunately, that's an easy balance to fix, just by changing the troops' equipment.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 03, 2008, 07:22:48 am
Troop level does change the stats, exactly the same as if the player increased by that many levels - points added to attributes, skills, and weapons appropriately.

Well, this means, that militia(8) will be tougher then militia(1), OK.
But if starting stats of a knight will be much higher, then militia's ones, then even knight(1) will be much tougher then militia(1)...

Anyways, equipments will play quite significant role, especially after RCM including. Militia troops starts with crude leather armor and bad (rusty, unbalanced etc.) weapon, while sworn troops from beginning have mails, plates and good weapons.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: ser Jeekim on April 03, 2008, 03:33:57 pm
@Sparehawk:  yes, I meant removing axemen and swordsmen paths from Ironborn troop tree, so they would stand out more from other factions and not have similar troops. It seems for me, that 3 separate paths of heavy infantry would be overkill. But then, I don't really know what you had in mind for all these units - maybe they have fundamentally different roles on the battlefield I don't see. So the decision is yours, ofc.

I perceived that the troops gain exp and levels the same way player does, but I did not think that there could be a difference in starting stats :) :-[. I assumed, that the only difference between Knight (1) and Militia (1) would be equipment... Mind you, I've never tried to mod M&B and in vanilla I believe all troops start out as recruits... That of course means you are kindly asked to disregard my "tweaking" proposals  :green:

As a side note, it makes me crazy if my select "talk" with some of my elite troops and see that my level 30 rank and file soldiers have something like 20 charisma and 9 strength! And instead of power strike or ironflesh the suckers have learned skills like inventory management or leadership...  Probably that is so to balance things out, since the player might decide to learn these too and else he could become underpowered.... but it still feels such a waste to me every time:!:

Also... a strange thing is, that after I uograded into 0.4.2, my level 36 character, wearing pretty much best armor in game (not counting Rhaegar's), had his lights knocked out in two of the very first battles I fought! I attacked Grayjoy Raiders all on my own... and out of the blue, some Finger Dancer hits home and does 97 damage to me?! Ok, escaped, healed, and thought that maybe a scouting party will be an easier picking... and what do you know - some jerk of a Marauder hits me with and axe for 78 damage! Haven't dared to play on since :lol: Come on - I used to take these scouting parties just for appetizers... I wonder, what would've happened, had I not been wearing greathelm and reinforced plate with matching greaces and gauntlest?!
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on April 03, 2008, 05:35:17 pm
The armor made of paper is a Native issue.  It basically adds up that armor does nothing, weapons do not much more, but power strike and speed bonus do everything.  RCM mostly fixes that (minus the occasional game engine bug) ... if I can ever get the bloody thing to work.  (Maybe by tomorrow.)
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: naptha on April 11, 2008, 11:12:32 am
I also liked the idea of sworn troops having the extra tier as in 0.4.1. I felt this accurately reflected the dedicated resources only available to recognized masters of a large organization... something not available to say, mercenaries or bandits. Could Lannisters field Tournament-level knights to the battlefield nearly unmatched in skill and equipment? Absolutely. Could a top tier bandit or mercenary (hedge-knight) match this? Not so much.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 14, 2008, 04:25:20 am
I also liked the idea of sworn troops having the extra tier as in 0.4.1. I felt this accurately reflected the dedicated resources only available to recognized masters of a large organization... something not available to say, mercenaries or bandits. Could Lannisters field Tournament-level knights to the battlefield nearly unmatched in skill and equipment? Absolutely. Could a top tier bandit or mercenary (hedge-knight) match this? Not so much.

There will be an "extra tiers" in kingdoms' armies. Each kingdom will not have all available troops in it's army. I assume, there will be totally a 8-10 troops types in each kingdom's army. So, the final stages of lowborn and sworn troops' trees will be such "extra tiers". However, for a troops, serving a player, there is no big difference, where exactly they were recruited, with time and money they could learn almost any skill...
Title: Re: RCM for Ice&Fire (aka Items Tweaking)
Post by: Nahadiel on April 14, 2008, 02:36:15 pm
I've read several articles about balancing in strategy and role-playing games, and now have several ideas about balancing different kingdoms' armies and items' prices.
However, I'm planning to engage in it only after I'll finish with sailing AI.

I thin I mentioned it on the original thread. I've got the RPG of Game of Thrones, I dislike d20 system but I bought it anyways. It has prices about weapons, armors and horses, though the amounts are not nearly the same, it can provide some odds and references. Also, it comes with some info about each main House's armies, the odds between infantrymen and cavalry and even some preferred tactics. However it's not written by G. R. Martin, but was somehow supervised by him and approved.
Title: Re: RCM for Ice&Fire (aka Items Tweaking)
Post by: Sparehawk on April 14, 2008, 03:12:39 pm
I've read several articles about balancing in strategy and role-playing games, and now have several ideas about balancing different kingdoms' armies and items' prices.
However, I'm planning to engage in it only after I'll finish with sailing AI.

I thin I mentioned it on the original thread. I've got the RPG of Game of Thrones, I dislike d20 system but I bought it anyways. It has prices about weapons, armors and horses, though the amounts are not nearly the same, it can provide some odds and references. Also, it comes with some info about each main House's armies, the odds between infantrymen and cavalry and even some preferred tactics. However it's not written by G. R. Martin, but was somehow supervised by him and approved.

It's cool. Could you, please, post here or mail me some quotes from it's documentation, especially the parts about armies?
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Skunky Lee on April 15, 2008, 04:59:56 am
Now I was thinking something about the Others...
Atm, it's completely too easy to kill them. Not just the others, but wigths as well. In the books, the only really effective thing against them is fire, but I dont think fire damage is possible to do in the current M&B version, so I reckon you could somehow simulate the zombie effect by giving wights insanely high hitpoints.

Now, no wight actually carries any heavy armor (Unless we're talking about the unfortunate Ser Royce who got pwned in the prologue of the first book  :P), so blades should deal somewhere around 70-80 damage per strike? I mean, from normal middle-tier troops, not the player char. Atm they're too weak, too wildling-like. If you buff their HP's to somewhere 400-600 range, methinks we'de stop seeing creatures that can have their guts spilled out and still advance killed in 1 hit by pretty much any knight. When/if fire-type damage gets implemented, they could only be succeptible to that.  :P

Sure it would make the Others parties a bitch to kill, but shouldnt they BE a bitch to kill?

Oh, and btw, I'm happy with the Others themselves ^^
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on April 15, 2008, 05:25:47 am
Whatever the "others" wear can be tweaked to give them armor values of whatever you think appropriate ... and by flagging those items as "unique", the player will never be able to get them.  (That's the way the trolls were done in TLD.  Their skin was really an "armor".)  It doesn't matter if the item is obviously plate armor, or if it's a head scarf, or if it's completely invisible.  (Some of the Native LOD's are actually zero poly - no actual model, just an empty screen entry in the BRF file.)  It can still be given a gazillion points of armor if you want.

However when going through the stats for RCM, I couldn't really figure out what exactly the undead types were supposed to be wearing.  I tried to give a couple of their items imposing stats, but I was pretty sure that not all of them were included in the item file.

Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on April 15, 2008, 06:15:18 am
The wights just carry the armor they had before their death, but usually drop their weapons as they seem to be insanely strong (this could be difficult to create with RCM, I think even a 10 power strike with bare hands would deal no damage, or a really low one, to a decent armor). Anyways, I'm not sure if they carried some weapons, so maybe they could.

About the Others, they use a really wierd armor, it changes itself to match the surrounding shadows and colour, as a charmeleon. I don't know if it's a chain or plate mail, if complete or just half-body. And have no idea about its resistance as no single character was able to hit it with normal weapons. Their weapons seem to be only swords. These swords look like blue-ice if I recall it right, are really thiny and fast and they spread coldness to wathever it touches, so it can break steel weapons. Also they made some crying metalic noise when they are swung.

Other features about the Others: they don't make noise while walking, only obsidiane has been proved to kill them, and they ride undead horses (and Westeros own mythology says they even ride some giant ice spiders.)
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 15, 2008, 07:08:41 am
The wights just carry the armor they had before their death, but usually drop their weapons as they seem to be insanely strong (this could be difficult to create with RCM, I think even a 10 power strike with bare hands would deal no damage, or a really low one, to a decent armor). Anyways, I'm not sure if they carried some weapons, so maybe they could.

About the Others, they use a really wierd armor, it changes itself to match the surrounding shadows and colour, as a charmeleon. I don't know if it's a chain or plate mail, if complete or just half-body. And have no idea about its resistance as no single character was able to hit it with normal weapons. Their weapons seem to be only swords. These swords look like blue-ice if I recall it right, are really thiny and fast and they spread coldness to wathever it touches, so it can break steel weapons. Also they made some crying metalic noise when they are swung.

Other features about the Others: they don't make noise while walking, only obsidiane has been proved to kill them, and they ride undead horses (and Westeros own mythology says they even ride some giant ice spiders.)

I'm thinking it would be impossible to make Others in game exactly like in books... M&B engine have it's limitations...

However, I've just got one a quite weird idea... Since there are no parties in game, consisting from both living and undeads, and there are very limited list of weapons that could hurt them, I think it's still possible to make Others and their servants to be vulnerable only to valyrian and obsidian weapons. ;)
It's a simple trick: give Others and wights nearly impassible for usual weapons armor, and before any battle - if enemy is Others' party - to change all valyrian/obsidian weapon in player's party to the much more powerful versions, able to pierce Others' armor. When battle ends - change them back.
So, in battles with usual opponents valyrian steel will be just slightly better then usual weapon and obsidian maybe even worse, but in battle against Others, valyrian steel and obsidian will be the only weapon capable to hurt enemies...

What do you thinking about such idea?

As for wights, I'm not sure yet, but maybe it's possible to make some kind of "invisible" weapon, that deals good damage, but combatant with it looks like barehanded?

Undead horses will be added to mod as soon as anybody makes textures for them.

And another moment... I'm not sure yet if it could be scripted, but IMHO it should be impossible to use cavalry against Others, since living horses feels incredible fear in undeads' presence.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on April 15, 2008, 07:46:35 am
Invisible or hand-shaped weapons are possible.  That can be modeled without too much trouble.  I was actually thinking about doing something like that for fantasy-themed characters that have claws, like werewolves or such. 

(I've been thinking of doing a generic mod-community fantasy pack for some time, just to give people a place to throw all their wild ideas for exotic equipment and get a chance to beat up humanoid monsters.  Since the demise of Highelf's "fantasy mod", TLD is the only standing "high-fantasy" setting, and the lore there is tightly controlled by the books.  But a number of things have stopped me ... not the least of which being work on several well-established projects waiting on me... plus I would need the help of some other good modders to cover the skills I don't have.  But that's why I've been thinking through stuff like that.)

It might be possible to add something to particular weapons with special damage scripts (on hit do x damage to character type undead), and then make their armor against anything else to be like 500 points.  It would take some skill with Python to set it up right. (translation: I can't do it myself ... but somebody like Fisheye or Highlander, who is good with stuff like that.  Even then, it's going to be no small project.)

However, trying to change out every weapon in the game with scripts would be an impossible nightmare.  Bad plan.  Most horrible bad plan in a long list of bad plans.


I get the feeling that a lot of stuff that needs to be in here has not been planned out ahead of time.  That's a worrying trend.  (Heck, starting a mod without anybody on models is pretty serious, even if everything else was working perfectly.)
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Sparehawk on April 15, 2008, 08:50:40 am
However, trying to change out every weapon in the game with scripts would be an impossible nightmare.  Bad plan.  Most horrible bad plan in a long list of bad plans.

Not every weapon... Just a dozen of them...
But well, maybe it's really not so good idea.

I get the feeling that a lot of stuff that needs to be in here has not been planned out ahead of time.  That's a worrying trend.  (Heck, starting a mod without anybody on models is pretty serious, even if everything else was working perfectly.)

Well, maybe if I began work on this mod from the beginning, I would not risk to start it.
But this project was started by another man, and when I've found it, I've looked on it and like it, but I thought that it could be much better... But former author said that he wouldn't work on this mod any more, and there was no more people around who want and can to continue his work...
I'm a programmer in RL, I have some experience in modding Morrowind, so I've decided that I can do it.
So it become my mod.

I'm trying to keep is organized - I'm tracking a TODO list and planning what should be done in next release and what should be done in some indefinite future... Well, I'm not too communicative guy and I'm not good in finding new team members... I'm more an idea generator and executor then organizer... But I'm trying my best and want to make this mod's gameplay as much interesting and immersive as possible... Maybe, it will never be such good as OnR or TLD now, but I think that something is better then nothing.
Title: Re: RCM for Ice&Fire (aka Items Tweaking)
Post by: Nahadiel on April 15, 2008, 08:57:41 am
First of all, three notes and a warning:
-This is gonna be a heavy long text, translated from my Spanish edition of "A game of Thrones" RPG d20 system.

-G. R. Martin has approved and authorised the contents of this book about Westeros. However, it contains some "grey" areas in where the content, though approved, could be changed in the future as the plot of the novels is developed.

-About strength of Houses and their numbers: these numbers were based upon the info showed in www.westeros.org. G. R. Martin allowed to use those numbers cause somehow fit the novels, but also said that weren't realistic from a medieval (historically) point of view.

-Please, be aware that by the "A Clash of Kings" timeframe, some details should be changed. Some Lords sworn allegiance to new Houses or some minor Houses are divided in their loyalty. Good examples could be Petyr Baelish (sworn to Arryn House and loyal to Lannisters on Kingslanding) and Florent House (most of it follows Renly but its main members are loyal to Stannis).

Lannisters: Kingslanding and Westernlands:
Kingslanding:
Its population is between 250k and 500k people. The city guard, commonly know as "Goldcloaks", garrisons around 2000 men (though Cersei raised this number by Clash of Kings timeframe). Those men are trained veterans (with Cersei massive conscription tons of greenish recruits flooded their ranks) prepared to keep order and peace in the city. But they are no real soldiers for an open-terrain battle. A common member wears a black chainmail with a golden cloak (though some wear complete body chainmail armor) and uses sword, spear or iron staff. Its officers wear plate or brigantine with golden discs as ornament, and use black pointed spears. The goldcloaks also have some mounted men prepared to act as lancers if needed.

Kingslanding has a fleet of 50 warships, including King Robert's Hammer and its 400 paddlers. Again, Tyrion, Cersei and others actions changed this number a bit, but no important warship was created by Clash of Kings timeframe.

Kingslanding surroundings:
The next houses are sworn to Kingslanding, and thus, to the man whose butt rests upon the Ironthrone: Blount, Brune, Chelsted, Farring, Hayford, Kettleblack, Rosby, Rykker, Slynt, Staunton and Stokeworth. Despite their sworn to the crown, many houses remain loyal to Targaryen House.

These houses can gather around 10k-15k soldiers.

Westernlands:
Western lands are really rich due the numerous gold veins of its mountains. Also, it is in a very good location to benefit from sea trade. This allows its Lords to hire the second biggest army of Westeros.

The main minor Houses sworn to Casterly Rock are: Brax, Broom, Clegane, Crakehall, Lefford, Lorch, Lydden, Marbrand, Payne, Prester, Serret, Swyft and Westerling (this one maybe should change is future scripted events if you wanna introduce them). Also the minor Houses of Shield Islands should be included.

Those Houses (including Lannisters) can gather a maximum of 50k men, but this means decimating the garrisons and taking many inexperienced recruits (and emptying Lannisport streets from scoundrels and criminals). Also, any army under a Lannister command (Jaime, Tyrion or Tywin) can afford to maintain a cavalry/infantry odd of 1/2 or even better. Again, this means that most of mounted soldiers will be hedge knights, mercenaries and recruits able to mount a horse.

There is a comment about Lannisport garrison: the wealth of the city allows it to maintain a semiprofessional unit of pikemen, considered the best levy of Westeros.

Their fleet has recovered from last Balon Greyjoys rebellion. Lannisport has around 30 medium-big sized warships and every coastal minor House has 2 or 3 medium-big warships. So they can gather up to 50-60 vessels and keep minimal coastal patrols.

North:
The North is huge and harsh, only wood, wool, furs, fish and stone crafts make a little trade as almost every location is selfsustained. Northern Lords can gather up to 45k men, but that takes a lot of time due the size of the North, that's why Robb had only 20k men. The other reason are the crops. The North is always covered by snow, and worsens along the winter, so every Lord is willing to leave some men to harvest the fields. If Robb has called to arms in the summer, he would be able to gather 10k men more. The odds between cavalry and infantry in the North are 1/4.

Northern Lords lack any important fleet since Brandon the Arsonist burned down almost every warship.

The main lesser Houses sworn to Winterfell are: Bolton, Cerwyn, Flint, Glover, Hornwood (almost extinct), Karstack (you could want to create a trigger that makes this house to leave Starks and become "independent"), Manderly, Mormont, Tallhart and Umber.

Also, there are some mountain clans sworn to Winterfell, they are minor houses but northmen call them clans and only use the name to name the former Lords of each clan: Wull, Flint, Harclay, Liddle, Knot, Norrey. Also, there are some Houses in Skagos island,tough they are almost independent: Crowl, Magnar y Stane.

Tully:
Riverland Lords can gather around 45k men, 4k of them belonging to Freys. Unfortunately, the discussions and internal troubles lessen this number as Bracken and Blackwood are fighting each other. Some will sworn loyalty to Kingslanding after their castles are taken and some even remain loyal to Targaryens. Also, every minor house has skiffs and other vessels able to sail along the Fork and minor rivers.

These are the minor houses sworn to Riverrun and some notes on them:
Blackwood (fighting against Bracken, but remain loyal to Riverrrun; its castle was burned down by Ser Gregor)
Bracken (at war with Blackwoods, their castle was burned down by Ser Gregor, in late timeframe they will leave Tully and become somehow independent)
Darry, its Lord is a 8 years old boy. Ser Gregor killed his father and elder brother who were loyal to Targaryens.
Frey, no comments about them as everybody knows them so well.
        Haigh and Herenford: Frey's vassals.
Mallister, successfully defended their properties against Ser Gregor. Also, they were the first line of coastal defence against Ironmen raids.
Paege, very close to Freys by marriages.
Piper
Ryger, as loyal to Targaryens as Darry and Mooton are.
Smallwood, vassals of Atranta branch of Vance.
Vance, it has tow branches: Vance of Atranta and Vance of Walkers Rest (not sure this is the right translation). Atranta ones are close friends of Edmure Tully, but the other branch is loyal to him as well. NOTE: Vance families, Darry and Piper have 3 or 4 common fiefs.
Whent, ancient owners of Harrenhal, Lady Whent is one the lasts Whent. They were loyal to Targaryens.

Now, you'll understand why one of the most rich areas of Westeros if pure chaos. ;)

Baratheon, Stormlands and Dragon Rock:
Stormlands:
There aren't big cities in Stormlands and the land is poor, except for Royal Forest, Wraith cape and the Jungle (right translations?). Only wood and furs make some trade.

Stormlands have a force of 30k men, but they are experienced ones and licensed veterans. The reason is a strong military tradition on these lands to resist the common Dornish and Tyrell raids. Also, they have strongholds with heavy walls to defend from those raids. But they have a low cavalry/infantry odd, similar to Northmen.

There is nothing said about their fleets, but I suppose they should have some ships to patrol their shores and islands.

Their sworn minor Houses: Buckler, Cafferen, Caron, Connington, Dondarrion, Errol, Estermont, Grandison, Hasty, Horpe, Lonmouth, Morrigen, Penrose, Seaworth, Selmy, Sunglass, Swann, Tarth, Trant, Wensington and Wylde.

DragonRock:
DragonRock and their sworn Lords can gather up to 3000 men, 400 of them would be mounted. Despite the low number, all of them are man-at-arms or knights. The power of DragonRock rests upon the Royal Fleet anchored there. It has 160 ships, 80 of them are war galleys with 100 paddlers or more. This could be different in Clash of Kings after the Blackwater battle and due the fact some Lords were loyal to Lannisters and Stannis hired mercenaries.

Minor Houses sworn to DragonRock: Bar Emmon, Celtigar, Massey and Velaryon.

Highgarden:
Vast farming lands and rich soil makes it very populated and the richest after Lannisters. It has the biggest "international" trading port: Hightower. Highgarden Lords can gather the astounding amount of 80k men, 1/2 or 1/3 of them mounted, mostly knights due its tradition. They even could command 100k men if needed, but that would mean calling for everybody between 18 and 50 and tons of villagers and lowering the odd of mounted men.

Also, thanks to Redwyne, Hightower and Shield Islands Houses it has 200 warships of 100 or more paddlers and some really big warships, though not as big as King Robert's Hammer. So, this fleet can face any other big fleet (Royal Fleet, Ironmen fleet and Kingslanding fleet).

Their minor Houses are:
Ashford, Beesbury, Caswell, Costayne, Crane, Florent (command 2k men, part of this family should be with Stannis as he is married with its Lord daughter), Fossoway (2 branches: Fossoway of Cider, red apple, and Fossoway of New Barrel, green apple), Hewett, Hightower (loyal to Targaryen), Inchfield, Mullendore, Oakhearth, Peake (joined the Darkfire in their uprising), Redwyne, Rowan, Serry, Tarly and Wyther.

Dorne:
Its wood used for high quality bows, good wine and fruits make some good trade to aid the crops around the rivers. Anyways, Dorne trades more with Free Cities than with other Westeros "kingdoms". Also, their different culture and close relationships with Free cities makes the rest of Westeros dislike them a bit. Dorne was completely loyal to Targaryens in Robert's rebellion.

Dorne battlefield tactics are different from the Westeros ones: Dorne favors mounted archers and lancers with light armor to perform guerrilla warfare (so almost every man is mounted). The reason is double: they have the fastest and more resitant (referring to stamina) horses and light armor is a must in Dorne's hot climate. So Dorne takes profit from the terrain and is really hard to beat if fighting on desert or mountain passages. Another reason is that Dorne isn't as populated as his neighbour Highgarden.

Dorne has few ships, many less than Highgarden or the Westernlanders.

Minor Houses sworn to Sunspear: Allyrion, Blackmont of Monegro (curiosly there is a desert in Spain called "Monegros"), Dalt, Dayne, Fowler, Gargalen, Manwoody, Qorgyle, Santagar, Toland, Uller, Wyl and Ironwood.

Arryn and The Vale:
The Vale is nearly as rich as Highgarden, but completely isolated from the rest of Westeros and far less populated. They can gather as many troops as Tullys or Starks, 45k men, but it would take littel time to do that as they are concentrated around the Vale. Also, from 1/2 to 1/3 would be mounted men and knights.

The Arryns have a little fleet similar to Dorne's one.

Minor Houses sworn to Arryn: Baelish, Belmore, Borrel (they were pirates once), Corbray, Egen, Grafton, Hardyng (sworn to Waynwood House), Hunter, Moore, Redfort, Royce, Templeton and Waynwood (remotely related to Starks).

Also, The Vale is the home for several wildlings clans, better armed than Northern wildlings. Those wildlings are totally independent and attack everybody on the mountains. They 've become a bigger threat to travellers.

Ironmen:
Iron isles are bad for growing crops and minery is reserved to "slaves" and lowest members of their society. Even worse, the scarce farmers have to do manually what in Westeros is done with horses, donkeys or bulls, as result of the lack of those animals in the isles. So, raids and piracy is the best way to get out of misery, appart of fishery.

Those men don't fear drown, so they carry their chainmails in naval battles, while boardig the enemy or simply working on the deck. This lifestyle means that every Ironmen is a proficient warrior and is willing to come aboard and start a pirate life before working on the mines or fishing. This somehow lessens the fact that Ironmen can only gather 20k men.

On the other hand, Ironmen have the biggest fleet. Iron isles host 500 or more war ships (much like viking drakkars). Those ships aren't as big as war galleys or dromonds, but much faster and maneuverable. So, despite they can't support war machines, they allow ironmen to quickly aboard enemy vessels and assault them. Ironmen ships have 20 paddlers, but some have 100 paddlers. The Ironfleet is the elite sea unit of the Ironmen.

Some minor Houses sworn to Greyjoys, in brackets come the isle they belong to: Botley (Pyke), Farwynd (Great Wyk), Goodbrother (Great Wyk), Harlaw (Harlaw), Merlyn (near town of Pebbleton, not sure what island it is), Myre (Harlaw), Orkwood (not mentioned), Stonetree (Harlaw), Volmark (Harlaw) and Wynche (from Ironforest but not sure what island it is).

Targaryen:
Not much by the moment.

I think that's all.

Oh, forgot about Kingsguards and Rainbowguards. The first of those will be their former commanders:
Kingsguard: Jaime Lannister, Sandor Clegane, Ser Boros Blount, Ser Meryn Trant, Ser Arys Oakhearth, Ser Preston Greenfield, Ser Mandon Moore.

Rainbowguard: Ser Loras Tyrell, Ser Bryce Caron, Ser Guyard Morrigen, Ser Parmen Crane, Ser Robar Royce, Ser Emmon Cuy, Brienne of Tarth. Loras has no color as he is the commander. Anyways I think he wears his green plate armor.

EDIT: maybe you should move it to other thread?. I think the RCM thread is not the proper one for this info, the post is totally out of topic.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Skunky Lee on April 15, 2008, 11:45:00 am
Dear lord, Nahadiel, I applaude you *insert bowing smilie*
This information should prove invaluable.

Sparehawk, if you need any help with this mod, I'd be glad to help. Since gio has somehow expressed readiness to try with texturing, you really only lack a modeller (and sadly, I suck at that). Now you have a info gatherer (kudos, Nahadiel), weapons master (Ron really seems to know about that stuff), a lore-master (pretty much anyone), and well... I'm somehow concerned that this mod might become a bit big for one person to handle. I'd be really sorry to see you leave the project if it gets too big.  :( I really dont have any special skills you could probably use... But dunno... Well, if you think of something...  ;)

Btw. Wights shouldnt have armor to simulate their zombie-like status. I mean, a longsword on a wight's skin would do just as much damage as it would to the living flesh, wights wear little armor (If the wights spruce from wildling just furs (even bronze plating was rare), and if they were once Nightwatch brothers some mail, furs and leather) that could protect them like plate.. If the wight would have it's arm cut off, it would still be "alive" and go after your throat. I think an unnaturaly high HP would simulate that better than invisible unique armor. :)
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on April 15, 2008, 12:49:41 pm
The only thing I could possibly help with is voice work and trying to recruit people to the mod, people Sparehawk might find useful. When it comes to people on this site, I think Ron would be much more successful since he knows all the major players at MBX much better than I do but when it comes to other people Sparehawk might want...well he himself said he was more of an executioner and not one for much talking so I could be the guy with the smooth tongue.

So there you have it. Oh, and based on something I actually read from some correspondence between fans and GRRM (the author of the books) himself, House Lannister is the wealthiest but House Tyrell can field the most troops. I've been reading such correspondence, you see, and have been keeping tabs on things that might prove to be useful for the mod. I'll keep doing so, on the lookout for most things that are military in nature, since those are probably the things that interest us most. Oh, and the Lannisport City Watch are known as some of the best drilled militia troops in Westeros, much like Nahadiel himself said.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on April 15, 2008, 07:03:43 pm
"Weapons master"? ... that's an interesting description of me.  Not really a term that makes much sense, if you've ever had someone try to kill you - then everybody suddenly feels like a victim.  (Especially when your attacker is a career criminal who does this sort of thing all the time ... or worse yet, a whole group of them.)  All a matter of perceptions, I guess ... what looked to an outside observer like a beautifully executed kill that the Samurai would have been proud of, was to the person involved something more along the lines of "He jumped me with a knife ... I was just trying to get the sucker off of me!"  Then you go and puke. 

It ain't like the movies, people....

-----------------------------------------

Seriously, I've said this before and I'll say it again:

Tutorials on this page will teach you modeling in Wings 3D.  Wings is a free program.  I taught myself in a matter of days ... and I may not be "good" (I still can't rig anything for crud ... and that requires other programs too), but the new weapons in OnR are mostly my work, to give you some idea how far a tutorial and a few days of practice will go.

You guys who are lamenting a lack of skills - get the skills.  A little practice will go a LONG way.

But I have a ton of stuff to model for OnR before I could get back to this mod, and I'm going to have a ton more things to do if M&B 1.0 ever gets done (Holy War and Mesoamerica will be porting to new version as well).  Plus I haven't read the books, so I don't know the lore here.  So somebody else is probably going to need to do the models.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Skunky Lee on April 16, 2008, 06:43:28 am
If I offended you in any way, I sincerely apologise...
By "weapons master" I meant someone who knows a lot about effects of cold weapons, but I am not a native english speaker, so I reckon I was misunderstood. And you do know a lot about cold weapons. :)
True enough, I know something about fights also. Now there's never been a assasination attempt on my life, but I know how real fights look like. Only fistfights though, and I hope it's gonna stay that way. I know it's not like in the movies... Again, I'm really sorry if you found my "tag" offensive in any way...
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on April 16, 2008, 07:57:40 am
Offensive?  No, not in the least.  I just read it as overly honorific ... rather suggesting some sort of elite status.  That only scares me because I'm afraid someone else will get the wrong idea, and start thinking that real bloodshed makes you a "master" of something.  This is the kind of deranged thinking that fly-by-night "martial arts" schools promote by reinforcing the mental instabilities of their "students" (read "suckers"), by creating personality cults around somebody who claims to be "master" of some deadly art.  This usually ends up reinforcing violent behavior.  I don't want to see that kind of thinking around here.  It scares me.

So no, no offense.  Quite the opposite, actually ... I think you're giving me too much credit.  :-[

But just to set the record straight, in case anyone read that wrong:  Cutting down other humans in combat, regardless of your reasons, technique, or any other factor, does not make one a master of anything.  In a combat confrontation, there are only two kinds of people ... survivors, and casualties. 

I've come out as a survivor more than once, against statistical odds that say I must be hard as heck to kill.  And I've drawn blood on opponents that were considered by most to be unstoppable - career criminals with plenty of experience at bringing down armed opponents.  But I promise, it was not anything of knowledge or skill that saved me ... to be honest, my opponents probably had a slight advantage there (had they realized who they were dealing with) ... the only things that really mattered in any of those incidents were the determination to do whatever was necessary, and the dumb luck that said opponents underestimated me.  And while I was raised to do the former, and encouraged the latter, those are not things that you can be a "master" of.

Just clearing that up, before any kids read it and think, "Yeah, that's what I want to be - a WEAPONS MASTER."   ::)  There is no such animal, really.  There are people who can and will kill and/or maim other humans, and there are people who can't or won't.  Most of the ones who can and will are criminals and sociopaths, and the few of us have such power but refuse to use it for such ends ... we walk a thin line.  It is a terrifying place to live, fearing yourself ... fearing what you might do if you ever lose control.  Knowing that all your worst fears are summed up in your own shadow.  Being the poster-child for the treatment of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder doesn't exactly make you feel like "master" of much. 

This has been a public service announcement to anybody who thinks it would be cool to learn to fight with a knife. 
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on April 16, 2008, 12:50:48 pm
From your post, I understand that you advocate running, correct? Or do you advocate not getting into trouble at all?

Anyway, we've had this discussion before in the Onin No Ran RCM thread so I'll not press on here as well. I just wanted to show everyone just how bad Highgarden Master Archers are at targeting. As if their armour wasn't bad enough, their aim is also agonizingly off. I mean, these guys couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, let alone targeting lone troops from a range upwards of 10 yards. Preposterous I say! This matter deems looking into! Here is a screenshot that demonstrates the aim (or better said, lack of it) of Highgarden Master Archers:

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii123/AgentGriff/headshot.jpg)

Just shameful. I'd be afraid to show my face on the street after pulling off such a shot. All the other archers would surely laugh and point and say There's the guy that shot the Kingsguard through his visor!.

Disgraceful, innit?
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on April 16, 2008, 02:20:14 pm
Also, weapon master (master-at-arms more accurately) in the novels is an specific name referring to the man in a castle whose job is to teach everything about weapons, not only for combat porpoises, for lore-terms too (you are somehow doing this in RCM showing how dangerous can be the smallest knife). I read some parts of OnR RCM thread when you were developing the first version of RCM for this mod and since then I feel more respectful towards your job on RCM. I mean, whatever reason or situation had lead you to face such risks, that made you able to create RCM in a way that nobody around here can achieve, thus your work is invaluable for any mod willing to use RCM.

For those who don't feel self-confident enough to start modelling in this mod and still want to help I'd say that you can gather info. There is no an official SOIAF info gatherer until Sparehawk say so.  ;) So on, gathering info is an easy task as the info is just out there waiting for you, but it's time-consuming and even frustrating cause you have to check tons of data from a given timeframe of the plot. Seeing the huge TODO list, I guess Sparehawk would gladly accept any help.

About Highgarden archers... when I commanded them I thought they weren't earning their wages. But facing them in big numbers made me to change my opinion.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Ron Losey on April 16, 2008, 10:00:26 pm
In response to the previous question:  What do I advocate for getting out of bad situations?

One, I would advocate not getting into more trouble than necessary.  Don't pick a fight, and if someone seems to be getting emotional over nothing, it's usually best to let him have it.  Much violence is what is known as "territorial violence" - the person only becomes aggressive because they see their rights or space as being invaded.  And even if their claim is absurd, it's usually better not to provoke them... a little alcohol and a short temper is a formula for somebody getting hurt.  Excuse yourself and walk away.  You'll be glad you did.

Two, in the event of unprovoked attacks (i.e. crime), unless it is your job to clean up the mess (like, you're on the SWAT team), usually your only real objective is to get out alive, and with any people who are in your group.  How you best accomplish this depends on the situation ... sometimes the shortest way out is to turn and run like a rabbit, sometimes the best solution is to disable the attacker before he can finish the job.  Sometimes the easiest way out is more involved - like getting to a better place from which to defend your position, or buying enough time to deploy a weapon of your own.  If you are out-numbered and surrounded (common in street crime), the obvious solution may include going THROUGH one or more of them before you can make your escape ... whatever you do, don't stick around to fight any longer than necessary, because you won't last long against superior numbers.  But whatever you finally decide to do, it has to be done immediately, and it has to be immediately effective (i.e. complicated attacks that require several steps to complete, or require your opponent to make certain mistakes, will get you killed).

Most people are really not in that much danger from unprovoked attacks.  Simple safety measures like looking around and steering wide of shady-looking characters will keep most people out of trouble.  However, if your skin color, accent, job, economic status, or whatever, flags you as a target by certain criminal elements, you had better have a couple of backup plans for when things don't go as planned.  (Being a big white guy in China, in my case, means that even with a relatively low crime rate, I am in considerable danger from street thugs figuring I'm a rich tourist.  Fortunately Chinese street thugs are seldom extremely competent, but I still have to stay on my toes to keep them from cornering me.)  (If your job is driving an armored bank truck through a slum, you SHOULD be paranoid.)


Of course, in computer games, they generally set up the situation like it is your job to clean up the mess.  If jobs like that are your taste, police departments and armies around the world are usually recruiting.  They are usually not as dangerous as they are portrayed, because those guys go in armed, and generally knowing exactly what they are up against.  That's a very different situation than suddenly finding yourself on the wrong end of an attempted robbery/homicide.



--------------------------------

On the archer thing, ranged weapons (bows, guns, artillery, whatever) depend on one critical factor - they must disable their targets before their targets can close to attacking range.  A block of archers are deadly at 50 paces ... a block of archers when enemy heavy horse reach them are dog meat.  Same in modern personal defense - a good handgun is a huge advantage at 50 feet away, but if you're laying on the floor with some guy's hand around your throat... then it's as much of a liability as an asset.

Japan responded to this by combining the roles of archer and melee infantry/horse.  While that reduced the effectiveness of their archers somewhat (because it's not cheap to provide armor and melee weapons for all your archers), it did clean up a lot of the traditional weakness of European missile troops.

Either way, archers are only effective if you have enough of them to break the enemy charge. 
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on April 17, 2008, 02:42:45 am
Here are some extra details about what soldiers and knights in Westeros might wear. It is pretty detailed with cross-references to the books of the series and the pages where you can actually read about them.

    * Ring-mail armor is worn with boiled leather, and wool in cold weather (I: 2)
    * Weapons such as longswords might be ostentatiously decorated with gemstones and precious metals (I: 5, etc.)
    * Common warriors may use short swords, double-bladed axes, bows, and other weapons (I: 2, 5, etc.)
    * Dirks are one kind of dagger (I: 6)
    * Nothing holds an edge like Valyrian steel (I: 12, 147)
    * Valyrian steel is folded hundreds of times in the process of forging (I: 20)
    * Daggers, swords, and greatswords exist that are made of Valyrian steel (I: 20, etc.)
    * Gilded swords (I: 25)
    * Warhammers are used (I: 36)
    * Bejewelled plate armor (I: 36, 263)
    * Tourney blades have blunted edges (I: 62)
    * Plate armor is worn (I: 74)
    * Helms may have visors, and can be shaped as animal heads or other fanciful shapes (I: 74)
    * The bravos of the Free Cities use slender swords, edged and balanced for the thrust (I: 81)
    * The Dothraki use long, curved swords called arakhs (I: 85)
    * A fine dagger of Valyrian steel, with a dragonbone hilt, would not go unnoticed in a place like King's Landing (I: 114, 115)
    * Intricate suits of scale armor (I: 120)
    * Steel plate of deep forest green, the armor put in the metal itself (a rare skill) rather than enamel or paint (I: 120, 235)
    * Iron chainmail over layers of boiled leather (I: 121)
    * A blued steel sword (I: 124)
    * Spears tipped with iron (I: 178)
    * Arms makers have a mark to proclaim their work on the items they produce (I: 185)
    * Morningstar (I: 188)
    * Padded doublets (I: 219)
    * Wood-and-leather shields (I: 219)
    * Silvered steel plate armor, with jasper and mother-of-pearl ornamentation (I: 232)
    * Some armors are made by men trained in the Free Cities, where some of them know how to put color directly into metal (I: 235)
    * Paint is used on armors (I: 235)
    * Some to claim to still know the spells that must be used to rework Valyrian steel, and some master armorers have revealed their ability to properly reforge it (I: 235. III: 359)
    * Ancient bronze armor, engraved with runes that are supposed to ward the wearer from harm (I: 246)
    * Plate enamelled in many colors (I: 249)
    * Gorgets are fastened to helms and armor (I: 248, 253)
    * Gilded ringmail (I: 261)
    * Horse armor (I: 261)
    * A lance made of golden wood from the Summer Isles, possibly of the fabled goldenheart (I: 261. IV: 6)
    * Tourney lances are made to break (I: 263)
    * Extremely skilled archers can shoot a small target accurately at 100 paces (I: 265)
    * The Braavosi style of fighting is flamboyant (I: 266)
    * Pot helms with narrow slits for the eyes (I: 279)
    * Helms decorated with silken plumes (I: 279)
    * Peasants, clansmen, and brigands might use old spears and swords, sharpened scythes, spiked clubs, and mauls (I: 280)
    * Miniature swords for children (I: 285)
    * Silvered ringmail (I: 309)
    * Gauntlets and greaves (I: 320)
    * Dothraki bows outrange those of the Seven Kingdoms (I: 325)
    * Broadhead arrows (I: 332)
    * Coifs (I: 332)
    * Heavy plate armor over mail and padded surcoat. Large rondels protect the juncture of arm and breast. (I: 365)
    * Skirts of lobstered metal covering to mid-thigh (I: 365)
    * Solid gorgets (I: 365)
    * A helm with a beaked visor (I: 365)
    * Round halfhelms with nasal guards (I: 365)
    * Boots with steel shinguards and gloves sewn with discs of black iron (I: 365)
    * Heavy triangular shields, almost four feet tall, made of heavy oak and studded with iron (I: 366)
    * Engraved swords (I: 366)
    * Oilstones are used to sharpen blades (I: 381)
    * The spears of the City Watch are topped by black iron heads (I: 440)
    * Steel codpieces (I: 446)
    * Pikes (I: 475)
    * Crossbows (I: 508)
    * Outriders tend to be in leather and mail (I: 534)
    * Swords tapered to thrust as well as cut, incised with three fullers (I: 546)
    * Carved stone pommels weighted with lead for swords (I: 546)
    * Bastard swords or hand-and-a-half swords (I: 546)
    * Visored, flat-topped greathelms (I: 556)
    * Pointed steel boots (I: 570)
    * A shield of ironwood, banded with steel (I: 571)
    * Archers wear their quivers on their belts (I: 571)
    * Greathelm with roaring, clawing lion crest all in gold (I: 572)
    * Spears can be thrown (I: 575)
    * Oval shields reinforced with iron studs, used by footmen (I: 577)
    * Burnished, bronzed steel plate (I: 578)
    * Mail gloves (I: 585)
    * Iron cudgels used by the City Watch (I: 600)
    * Black lacquered, gold-filigreed armor (I: 606)
    * The children of the forest used knives, leaf-shaped spear heads, and arrows made of obsidian (which is also known to smallfolk as dragonglass (I: 616. II: 378. IV: 10)
    * Spiked maces (I: 665)
    * Eight-foot war lances of turned ash, banded against splitting (THK: 459, 520)
    * Blunted longaxes for tournaments (THK: 463)
    * Fantastic helmets shaped like birds and beasts, chased with precious metals (THK: 466)
    * A new hauberk of mail, gorget, greaves, and greathelm made by a good smith can cost 800 silver stags (THK: 466)
    * Offering to trade old armor to be salvaged for metal can lower the price by 200 stags (THK: 466, 467)
    * Double-linked chainmail (THK: 481)
    * Greathelms with rounded tops to better deflect blows (THK: 481)
    * 12 foot tourney lances, with pennons on the ends (THK: 491)
    * An elaborate, enamelled crest for a helm (THK: 491)
    * Wealthier knights wear gilded spurs (THK: 492)
    * Tourney lances tipped with golds (THK: 497)
    * Poleaxes (THK: 497)
    * The armor of a Targaryen with black dragons teeth running across the shoulders and back of his breastplate, and the crest of his helm (THK: 516)
    * Poniard daggers (THK: 526)
    * A child's armor (II: 35)
    * A blunted silver longsword with a leaf-shaped blade made for a boy (II: 35)
    * Saddle armor (II: 36)
    * An officer of the City Watch wears a black enamelled breastplate ornamented with four golden disks (II: 65)
    * Men use oilcloth to polish armor (II: 102)
    * A suggested armor made of enamelled plate and gilded scales (II: 173)
    * Scorpions and spitfires are used in the defense of a city (II: 197)
    * Spitfires are a sort of small catapult (II: 231)
    * Sleeveless jerkins covered in scale armor (II: 241)
    * Weapons and armor used by the crannogmen of the Neck: frog spears, bronze knives, woven nets, and round leather shields (II: 241)
    * Siege engines such as mangonels, trebuchets, rams on wheels, and wheeled siege towers covered in rawhide (II: 248, 249)
    * Armor hued and enamelled to a deep cobalt color (II: 249, 251)
    * Winged helms (II: 259)
    * A short-hafted battleaxe, gold scrollwork inlaid in the black steel (II: 266-267)
    * Mauls (II: 267)
    * Throwing axes (II: 287)
    * Ungainly crossbows from Myr that can throw three quarrels at a time (II: 297)
    * A sword belt studded with chunks of black diamond (II: 347)
    * Most freeriders have poor armor, usually made of boiled leather (II: 351)
    * Armor covered in enamelled yellow sunflowers (II: 365)
    * Backplate and breastplate worn over a quilted tunics (II: 365)
    * Padded caps are worn beneath great helms (II: 366)
    * Steel caltrops are used in warfare and the defense of encampments, and can be flung with trebuchets at enemies (II: 375. III: 721)
    * Iron spikes may be set underwater to hamper crossings (II: 411)
    * Gold inlay brightening armor (II: 442)
    * Silken plumes, feathers, and wrought heraldic beasts with gemstones for eyes decorating helmets (II: 442)
    * A red-gold fox on a breastplate surrounded by a circle of lapis-lazuli flowers (II: 443)
    * Fire arrows are used (II: 480)
    * A leather jerkin sewn with overlapping iron disks (II: 488)
    * Trebuchets are made of wood, such as old oak wood, and iron banding to keep them from splitting (II: 520)
    * A leather jerkin studded with iron (II: 526)
    * Gilded mail (II: 593)
    * The pommel of a sword which is a gaping lion with a heart-shaped ruby in its mouth (II: 594)
    * Scorpions shoot out yard-long iron-headed shafts (II: 596)
    * Halberds (II: 597)
    * A long hauberk of black mail (II: 597)
    * A greatsword nearly as tall as a man (II: 597)
    * A visorless pothelm (II: 605)
    * Staves (II: 644)
    * Chainmail armor is cleaned by putting it in a barrel filled with sand and rolling the barrel around so that the sand scours any rust from the iron (II: 650)
    * Warm stockings (II: 659)
    * A spear with a silver-banded haft (II: 665)
    * Dark red enamelled plate with a rounded helm and gorget that are wrought like a screaming flayed man's face and shoulders (II: 678-679)
    * Small bows of wood-and-horn (II: 695)
    * The frog spears of the crannogmen are triple-pronged (III: 104)
    * Quilted jerkins (III: 119)
    * A studded brigantine (III: 144)
    * Pothelm (III: 153)
    * Gloves or gauntlets maid of mail (III: 157)
    * A chain worn from the neck from which a sword hangs (III: 195)
    * Mail hauberks or shirts of sewn rings are very common armor among the lords and soldiers of the North (III: 226)
    * A poleaxe, used for execution (III: 231)
    * Dornishmen, especially those from from the deserts, wrap long bright silk scarves around their helms to ward off the sun (III: 241, 430. IV: 37)
    * A costly scabbard made of cherrywood, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion's-head studs in pure gold with rubies for eyes (III: 358)
    * A sword with a crossguard shape as golden lions' paws with ruby claws unsheathed (III: 358, 60)
    * A Valyrian steel sword, its blade so dark as to be nearly black as is true of most Valyrian steel weapons, but among many of the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lap together, like waves of night and blood (III: 358, 359)
    * Valyrian steel is much lighter than one might expect, because it is the only metal that can be beaten as thin as it is and still retain its strength. The ripples in the steel, a mark of steel that has been folded on itself many thousands of times, is also a hallmark (III: 358, 359)
    * Valyrian steel blades are scarce and costly, yet thousands of them remain in the world, perhaps some two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone (III: 359)
    * Valyrian steel can be colored with great difficulty, but it is stubborn. Some say the old swords remember and do not change easily (III: 359)
    * A gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel (III: 360)
    * A rumored axe of Valyrian steel (III: 408)
    * Dornishmen favor round metal shields and short throwing spears or double-curved Dornish bows they use skillfully from horseback (III: 430)
    * Dornish lords favor armor that is heavily enameled and inlaid with burning copper, shining silver, and/or soft red gold (III: 430, 431)
    * A Dornish lords armor of a shirt armored with overlapping rows of bright copper disks, a high gilded helm displaying a copper sun on the brow, and a round shield of polished metal (III: 431)
    * Bodkin point arrowheads (III: 440)
    * Crossbows are rewound (III: 440, 512)
    * Longaxes have spiked heads (III: 585)
    * A longbow of smooth, thick Dornish yew (III: 616)
    * Valyrian steel can shear right through bronze (III: 619)
    * Wooden turtles on wheels, often covered with hide to protect them from fire, can be used for sieges to protect men assaulting a gate (III: 644, 780, 781)
    * A dagger with a jewelled pommel and inlaid goldwork on the blade (III: 668)
    * A greatsword, six feet of ornate silver bright with runes, its pommel a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull with ruby eyes (III: 682)
    * Valyrian steel is always dark (III: 682)
    * Bolts for scorpions can be prepared with fire, making fire spears (III: 721)
    * A dagger with a pretty pink stone in the hilt (III: 729)
    * A kettle helm (III: 729)
    * The greatsword Dawn is far superior to normal steel (III: 753)
    * Rolling mantlets behind which several archers can hide (III: 779)
    * Dornishmen are fond of spears (III: 794)
    * A spear eight feet long of turned ash, the shaft smooth, thick, and heavy. The last two feet of the spear is steel, a slender leaf-shaped spearhead narrowing to a wicked spike with very sharp edges (III: 794)
    * The joints of plate armor are vulnerbale, with less protected places at elbows, knees, and beneath the arms (III: 794)
    * A padded leather tunic worn beneath armor (III: 795)
    * A chainmail byrnie to protect the upper body (III: 796)
    * A greathelm bolted to a gorget with breaths around the mouth and nose and a narrow slit for vision, with a crest atop of it (III: 797)
    * A spaulder, which is a piece of armor (III: 797)
    * A massive shield of oak rimmed in black iron (III: 798)
    * Jacks, a sort of armor such as freeriders, mounted bowmen, and men-at-arms might wear (III: 841)
    * A lion-headed mace (III: 878)
    * Lord Bloodraven and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight before him carried the Valyrian steel sword named Dark Sister (TSS: 81, 137)
    * Aegon the Conqueror and the kings after him wielded Blackfyre, a Valyrian steel sword, until Aegon IV gave it to his bastard son Daemon on his attainment of knighthood at the age 12 (TSS: 111, 137)
    * A woman's close-fitting suit of scales, enameled green and chased with gold and silver (TSS: 145)
    * A longbow made of the fabled goldenheart wood of the Summer Isles (IV: 6)
    * Dornish style arms, being a copper scale shirt befitting the rank of the captain of House Martell's guard and an iron halfhelm with a cloth wound around it (IV: 37)
    * Knights of the Kingsguard have a ceremonial suit of scale armor made of mother-of-pearl chased with gold (IV: 101)
    * The Targaryens had many weapons of Valyrian steel (SFC)

 
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on April 22, 2008, 12:12:40 pm
Here is a very useful thread (and mod) about outfitting faction troops in a uniform way. I hope that's pretty much how Sparehawk plans to do it, since those troops look pretty cool, all decked out in matching equipment. Certainly makes it a hell of a lot easier to identify your own troops during the chaos of battle, especially if you like to play in an immersing style, with troop labelling turned off.

Here's the link:
http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,32830.0.html
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on April 23, 2008, 05:12:26 am
Don't know If he is going to intruduce colour patterns, but will introduce banners and sygils for sure. As there is going to be a common troop tree for most factions he is going to make sepparated (and equal) troop trees for each faction so the given equipment would be different.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Marcos182 on April 27, 2008, 08:19:54 pm
I"ll be happy as long as i can fight for House Tyrell (if i even choose too) without feeling like a Saracen or something! :) Just seemed like it killed the whole westeros mood.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Agent Griff on April 28, 2008, 07:40:10 am
That's exactly what I felt like too. The first time I played I picked House Tyrell, but was disappointed to see their style of dress. Thankfully, that's one of the things that will get changed with the next versions of ASoIaF.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Nahadiel on April 28, 2008, 09:02:02 am
In next version you will be able to kill any arab looking Dornish who step in your way. ;)
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Clegane on October 16, 2008, 12:35:30 pm
I"ll be happy as long as i can fight for House Tyrell (if i even choose too) without feeling like a Saracen or something! :) Just seemed like it killed the whole westeros mood.
That's exactly what I felt like too. The first time I played I picked House Tyrell, but was disappointed to see their style of dress. Thankfully, that's one of the things that will get changed with the next versions of ASoIaF.

Amongst other things that surely will be changed.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: tommylaw on November 17, 2008, 11:04:51 am
give the Lannisters less cavalry and the north more, since it says in the books that tywin's army was mainly foot and robb's army all horsed
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Night Ninja on November 18, 2008, 05:07:04 am
I believe that you have misinterpreted the books.

Robb's portion of the army was mainly horsed because he picked out the bulk of the horsemen from the Northern army. The army that Bolton lead against Tywin's army, and later Duskendale, was composed of the forces that Robb didn't take with him. That army had practically no cavalry with it.

The north also has far less cavalry than the south, mainly because of the difficulty of maintaining warhorses and the like.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: tommylaw on November 18, 2008, 01:01:32 pm
just out of curiousity, how many men did the river lords contribute to robb's cause, cos it didnt sound like they did a lot
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: HXavier on November 19, 2008, 09:19:54 am
just out of curiousity, how many men did the river lords contribute to robb's cause, cos it didnt sound like they did a lot

The best soruce for this king of info is the RPG books. Guardians of ORder published a SOIAF RPG books a few years back. And soon, Green Ronin will be publishing their own version, based on D20 (or the D20 altered version, maybe similar to Mutants and Masterminds). Still, the information of the book should be used ataken a garain of salt, since they claimed that GRRM himself didbn´t gave in the books the hard facts. According to them, what GRRM  said to them is athat the numbers are a POV of each character, so a character may THINK is was a few thousands, another a few hundreds, etc. Still, the book remains the best source, not just for this but for all the information on the books tahat I know, simple because RPG books are "world manuals". 
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Night Ninja on November 19, 2008, 10:15:38 am
The RPG book's statistics are supposedly canon until contradicted as they consulted GRRM on them.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: azile0 on November 19, 2008, 11:35:39 am
From your post, I understand that you advocate running, correct? Or do you advocate not getting into trouble at all?

Anyway, we've had this discussion before in the Onin No Ran RCM thread so I'll not press on here as well. I just wanted to show everyone just how bad Highgarden Master Archers are at targeting. As if their armour wasn't bad enough, their aim is also agonizingly off. I mean, these guys couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, let alone targeting lone troops from a range upwards of 10 yards. Preposterous I say! This matter deems looking into! Here is a screenshot that demonstrates the aim (or better said, lack of it) of Highgarden Master Archers:

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii123/AgentGriff/headshot.jpg)

Just shameful. I'd be afraid to show my face on the street after pulling off such a shot. All the other archers would surely laugh and point and say There's the guy that shot the Kingsguard through his visor!.

Disgraceful, innit?

Bwahahaa! I'd be hard-pressed to make that shot.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Oroonin on November 19, 2008, 01:06:51 pm
Have a look at the new Calradia at War for diversity in troop-lines! Not all of it is useable for this mod I guess, but the swadian tree sure is closer to a medieval army than I´ve seen before in any mod. Having two different base units - no more peasants going to war for two weeks and end up knighted. Also, having three infantery lines is more realistic.
Title: Re: Tweaking troops
Post by: Zenosknight on December 02, 2008, 09:25:56 pm
A bit late, but spelling eror within the list? xD

  * Gloves or gauntlets maid of mail (III: 157)
 

Good job with the composition though, I'd never would've found the patience to find all that  :shock:
Title: Re: RCM for Ice&Fire (aka Items Tweaking)
Post by: SilentVic18 on September 24, 2009, 11:13:33 pm
Still, the advice of the book should be acclimated ataken a garain of salt, back they claimed that GRRM himself didbn´t gave in the books the harder facts.


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