I've thinked a lot about troops' trees tweaking, and wanna to seek your advice about some my ideas.
IMHO, at the moment of game start, not each of Seven Kingdoms have it's own culture. I should say, that only Dorne, Iron Isles and North have own cultures. All other kingdoms share the common westeross culture and main difference in their armies determined mainly by their lords' politics, not by some cultural traditions.
So, it seems to be quite logical to forsake separate unit trees for each kingdom and instead to have a set of basic troops types like militia, mercenaries, knights etc.
Inside of each basic type will be a small (2-4 tiers) upgrade tree, and each kingdom will have an army based on some unique set of that basic types.
For example...
- Basic militia:
- Peasant. Base unit. Worst leather armor, clubs, knives and pitchforks.
Upgradeable to spearman or archer.- Spearman. Better leather armor, spear, decent combat skills.
Upgradeable to swordsman or light horseman.- Archer. Better leather armor, basic bow, decent combat skills.
Upgradeable to ranger or crossbowman.- Swordsman. Mail armor, shield, sword, good combat skills.
Upgradeable to plate swordsman.- Light horseman. Good leather armor, pike, longsword, horse, good combat skills.
Upgradeable to heavy horseman.- Ranger. Good leather armor, longbow, good combat skills.
- Crossbowman. Good leather armor, crossbow, good combat skills.
- Plate swordsman. Basic plate armor, sword or mace, shield, good combat skills.
- Heavy horseman. Mail armor, pike, longsword, horse, good combat skills.
- Basic knights:
- Squire. Good leather armor, sword or mace, shield, low combat skills.
Upgradeable to hedge knight or knight.- Hedge Knight. Decent plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, good combat skills. Not so expensive.
Upgradeable to veteran hedge knight.- Knight. Good plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, good combat skills. Quite expensive.
Upgradeable to champion.- Veteran Hedge Knight. Good plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, good combat skills. Not so expensive.
- Champion. Better plate armor, lance, shield, longsword, horse, better combat skills. Very expensive.
- Northern militia:
- Hunter. Base unit. Worst leather armor, crude bow, axe.
Upgradeable to axeman or archer(basic militia).- Axeman. Good leather armor, axe.
Upgradeable to veteran axeman or light horseman(basic militia).- Veteran axeman. Good mail armor, axe.
Upgradeable to man-at-arms.- Man-at-arms. Best mail armor, axe, best combat skills.
- Dornish militia:
- Dornish spearman. Base unit. Worst leather armor, throwing spears, pike, worst combat skills.
Upgradeable to veteran spearman or archer(basic militia).- Veteran spearman. Good leather armor, throwing spears, pike, good combat skills.
Upgradeable to dornish horseman or mounted archer.- Dornish horseman. Good mail armor, throwing spears, light lance, longsword, horse, good combat skills.
Upgradeable to heavy horseman(basic militia).- Mounted archer. Best leather armor, shortbow, horse, excellent combat skills.
Upgradeable to veteran mounted archer.- Veteran mounted archer. Good mail armor. best shortbow, horse, extraordinary combat skills.
- Iron Isles militia:
- Сabin boy. Base unit. Worst leather or even cloth armor, knife or axe.
Upgradeable to sailor.- Sailor. Cheap mail armor, sword or axe.
Upgradeable to raider.- Raider. Decent mail armor, sword or axe.
Upgradeable to manhunter or finger dancer.- Manhunter. Good mail armor, sword or axe, cheap horse.
- Finger dancer. Good mail armor, throwing axes.
- Iron Isles nobility:
- Ironman Noble. Good mail armor, sword or axe, good combat skills.
Upgradeable to captain or drowned man.- Captain. Plate armor, sword or axe, better combat skills.
- Drowned man. Cloth armor, sword or axe, extraordinary combat skills, ironflash max.
So, Starks army will have northern militia and basic knights without hedge knights. Lannisters - basic militia and basic knights with main focus on hedge knights. Tyrells - the same, but with focus on true knights. Etc.
This is only an example, I haven't spent any time to balancing at all.
How do you think, is this idea usable, or it's better to leave troops' trees as they are?
Looks pretty good so far, it can be tweaked more once people actually play the game.
Note: Ironmen should have very few horseman, which I think you did. Maybe instead of giving manhunters horses, give them only to the nobility. Maybe you can change the Drowned man name to something else. In the book they seemed to be more like priests, dressed in wool with wooden cudgels. Maybe change it to Reaver or something like that.
I've thinked a lot about troops' trees tweaking, and wanna to seek your advice about some my ideas.
IMHO, at the moment of game start, not each of Seven Kingdoms have it's own culture. I should say, that only Dorne, Iron Isles and North have own cultures. All other kingdoms share the common westeross culture and main difference in their armies determined mainly by their lords' politics, not by some cultural traditions.
So, it seems to be quite logical to forsake separate unit trees for each kingdom and instead to have a set of basic troops types like militia, mercenaries, knights etc.
Inside of each basic type will be a small (2-4 tiers) upgrade tree, and each kingdom will have an army based on some unique set of that basic types.
So, Starks army will have northern militia and basic knights without hedge knights. Lannisters - basic militia and basic knights with main focus on hedge knights. Tyrells - the same, but with focus on true knights. Etc.
This is only an example, I haven't spent any time to balancing at all.
How do you think, is this idea usable, or it's better to leave troops' trees as they are?
It would certainly need balancing, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.
I would make a clearer distinction between the lowborn and highborn (so to speak).
Peasant militia, which would be the troops you recruit from villages, should never really become that powerful. Swords, chain mail etc would be very expensive, much more than your usual farmer would be able to afford, and as such, shouldn't really appear that often among them(much less plate armour).
Perhaps something like this (for the 'main' troops. Dorne, the Iron Isles, and in some ways the North, might have slightly different structures):3-5 Tiers in each, with the top tier of one being compareable to the 2nd or 3rd of the next in level, stats, etc.
- Peasant Militia - Conscripts, levies, guardsmen, etc... Lightly armed and armoured, and with little training, compared to the others. No plate, very little chain, mostly armed with spears, crossbows, bows, few swords, etc... Mostly light infantry and archers, but could include some light cavalry as well.
- Men-at-Arms - 'Professional' Soldiers. Better training, arms and armour. For armour, mostly chain, maybe some plate for the heavier troops. Made up mostly of heavier infantry and some cavalry.
- Knights - (For lack of a better word.)Squires, knights etc. These would be the best in terms of both training and equipment. A mixture of heavy chain mail and plate armour, but mostly mounted troops, unlike the men-at-arms tree.
That actually sounds pretty good. The peasant militia would be the cheapest to recruit and would make up the bulk of the Lords army, around 50% or so. I think they can be recruited from villages only. The men-at-arm should be mercenary troops I think, recruitable at taverns. They should be more expensive but better fighters than the militia. And then the knights, should be recruitable only in castles. They would be the best, but very expensive and make up around 20% of the army.
That actually sounds pretty good. The peasant militia would be the cheapest to recruit and would make up the bulk of the Lords army, around 50% or so. I think they can be recruited from villages only. The men-at-arm should be mercenary troops I think, recruitable at taverns. They should be more expensive but better fighters than the militia. And then the knights, should be recruitable only in castles. They would be the best, but very expensive and make up around 20% of the army.
I'd put mercenaries as a seperate tree, actually. They would be troops of all types, but with dramatically increased recruitment cost and wages compared to regular ones (50-100% higher for essentially the same unit(different name, equipment, etc... but essentially the same type of unit)). Men-at-arms would be recruitable in castles and cities, if that is possible.
That actually sounds pretty good. The peasant militia would be the cheapest to recruit and would make up the bulk of the Lords army, around 50% or so. I think they can be recruited from villages only. The men-at-arm should be mercenary troops I think, recruitable at taverns. They should be more expensive but better fighters than the militia. And then the knights, should be recruitable only in castles. They would be the best, but very expensive and make up around 20% of the army.
I'd put mercenaries as a seperate tree, actually. They would be troops of all types, but with dramatically increased recruitment cost and wages compared to regular ones (50-100% higher for essentially the same unit(different name, equipment, etc... but essentially the same type of unit)). Men-at-arms would be recruitable in castles and cities, if that is possible.
IDK man-at-arms sort of seem like mercenary troops to me. They are professional soldiers, like mercenary's, who basicly go from war to war.
IDK man-at-arms sort of seem like mercenary troops to me. They are professional soldiers, like mercenary's, who basicly go from war to war.Well, I was thinking more of soldiers serving directly under some lord or another, rather than drifting from war to war. I mean, strictly speaking all professional soldiers could be considered mercenaries, but we still don't think of them as such, do we? :wink:
The basic idea seems good to me, but I agree that peasants shouldn´t be upgradeable into heavy horsemen, which should be reserved for nobility. The only horsemen (if any) that could come from militia would be some sort of scouts, throwning weapons/hunting crossbows, leather, cheap melee. Instead, the upgrade from spearmen would be pikemen/halbardiers. For reqruitement of nobility solved in a nice way, refer to the TLD influencesystem. You wouldn´t have to go that far, but a good standing with your faction+good renown could make squires/hedgeknights reqruiteable from your lord. The mercs should be crossbow/longbow marksmen, men-at-arms on foot, halbards and hedgeknights.
About troops' trees...
After reading all posts, I'm thinking, that there should be 3 main categories:
- Lowborn militia - could be hired in villages, cheap, bad armor and combat skills even at higher upgrade levels. Have several troops' trees, depending on region (Basic, Dorne, North, Iron Isles)
- Mercenaries - could be hired in taverns, quite expensive, good armor and combat skills. Have several troops' trees, depending on profession (Melee, Ranged, Mounted). Maybe, Brave Companions mechanics could be used here instead of original upgrade mechanics. Or, maybe, Companions could be just another additional tree.
- Warriors of oath - professional soldiers and nobility. Could be hired only from prisoners and in player's own castles/cities. Not so expensive as mercenaries, almost as good in combat as them. Maybe a bit better, but not much. No upgrade trees at all or very small (no more then 2-3 positions) ones.
Since army dynamics were so similar between all the factions, would it be possible just to make one line of knights (instead of the Tyrell and Barantheon and Westernos knights) and just have the only difference between them is that they adapt the colors of the Lord in whose army they are in. So say Tywin's knights will be all decked out in red and gold with liions, but if they get captured and switch sides and fight for Mace Tyrell they will be in green with flowers on them. So they are still all same troops with same stats, but they just look differently.
Since army dynamics were so similar between all the factions, would it be possible just to make one line of knights (instead of the Tyrell and Barantheon and Westernos knights) and just have the only difference between them is that they adapt the colors of the Lord in whose army they are in. So say Tywin's knights will be all decked out in red and gold with liions, but if they get captured and switch sides and fight for Mace Tyrell they will be in green with flowers on them. So they are still all same troops with same stats, but they just look differently.
Cute, but technically an issue. The only way to make different colors of equipment is with different items. And the only way to determine which item troops use is by having different troops.
We went through this with Onin-no-Ran ... the samurai are identical units for the various sides, except they have to be different troop types, and each one get the color of his side.
It should be possible to rig a script that will trade one for the other... but in the item file, they still have to be different troops.
| Lannisters (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Lannisters.gif) | Tyrrels (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Tyrells.gif) | Martells (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Martells.gif) |
| Baratheons (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Baratheons.gif) | Starks (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/Starks.gif) |
No logical reason for a connection, or lack thereof, between accuracy and rate of fire. Unlike automatic rifles, where recoil throws off your next shot, it just takes a certain block of time to pull out an arrow, draw the bow and release. With a bow, you can't aim for longer than a second or two, because you are holding the bow at full draw.
In the ancient world, armies generally hired their archers from woodsmen, hunters, and farm boys who had been using a bow all their lives. Therefore, accuracy was not their big problem - the military issue was just getting them to march in a straight line, and not break and run when things got hot.
You mean levy troops right? Not leaves.
Question:
The Northern Recruit - possible to upgrade to either Footman (level 10) or archer (level 14) - does that upgrade properly? Does it give both upgrade options at the same time, or does the first one to appear overwrite the other? Because I've never seen an upgrade done that way, with options of dissimilar levels, and I sort of suspect that there might be a reason.
My main question, however, is what is the actual troop system you'll be using for the next version? This is the troop system for the current release of the mod, but what of the next one?
So, um, no knights? How can a player get knights in his party then? I suppose there are knights in the game world, just that they are harder to recruit, right?
It's a system from version 0.4.2.
I wanna change it to something like what I've described in first post in this topic. With latest remarks, of course.
I assume, basic part for lowborn (except iron isles troops) could be like this:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh158/sparehawk_album/lowborn.gif)
That is a tree for player's troops. Kingdoms will have a copies of units from this tree, with colored coats. If player will obtain any kingdom's unit under his command, that unit will be converted to it's base version.
Actually, transition spearman -->mounted archer seems strange as well. I would propose, that Dorne would have mtd archer as upgrade from skirmisher instead of either crossbowman or archer; and from spearman alternative upgrades horseman and infantry.
I´d like more if distinction between bow and crossbow was faction-specific. Say, bows just for Dorne(?) and Northmen and crossbows for others.
Also, I see with pity that Dorne would no more get heavy infantry... sniff. Those Sarges are pretty cool... :(
Actually, transition spearman -->mounted archer seems strange as well. I would propose, that Dorne would have mtd archer as upgrade from skirmisher instead of either crossbowman or archer; and from spearman alternative upgrades horseman and infantry.
Just my small idea.
@Nahadiel: look closer, North has skirmishers as well :)
Muslim armies that invaded Iberic Peninsulae wore metal armor indeed. Maybe it is out of the time frame but the Turkish riders known as spahi often wore chainmail with a half-helmet (the other half was covered by mail), bow&arrows and saber.
Anyways I've realized that infatry polearms suck a lot in M&B.
Muslim armies that invaded Iberic Peninsulae wore metal armor indeed. Maybe it is out of the time frame but the Turkish riders known as spahi often wore chainmail with a half-helmet (the other half was covered by mail), bow&arrows and saber.
I'm not saying that dornish warriors shouldn't wear metal armor at all, I'm only talking that plate armor should be not so obvious in Dorne as in central Westeros. But chainmails and even lamellar still could be used quite widely.
Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass :D
Muslim armies that invaded Iberic Peninsulae wore metal armor indeed. Maybe it is out of the time frame but the Turkish riders known as spahi often wore chainmail with a half-helmet (the other half was covered by mail), bow&arrows and saber.
I'm not saying that dornish warriors shouldn't wear metal armor at all, I'm only talking that plate armor should be not so obvious in Dorne as in central Westeros. But chainmails and even lamellar still could be used quite widely.
Sorry, when I said metal armor I meant chainmail and maybe lamellar, not plate.Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass :D
I meant elite or veteran infantry when I said heavy infantry. In the common troop tree heavy armor and experiencie go together for infatry, but I wasnt talking on armors, just weapons. In the novels there isnt any example of Dornish infantry, Oberyn and his spear is the closest I've seen.
Well, I have always mentally linked Dorne with Spain at the time of reconquista. So the Muslim influence is there, but it never seemed like Middle-East to me.
And the infantry in question does not have to be "heavy" in the sense of being clad in plate armor from head to toe. Their current lamellar (?) seems pretty much in place. (Hell, Dornish items have the best looks in game, imho.)
I was more keeping in mind the fact that they would be lacking about any sort of experienced melee infantry. Dorne is not desert only; it has mountains as well. One might prefer to fight on foot in rough terrain..
Maybe if those veteran crossbowmen get halberds or spears as secondary weapon, so that they could stand for themselves in melee as well...
Basically I am missing somebody, who would fight in the style of Prince Oberyn - melee, on foot and kicking serious ass :D
In the novels hedge-knights seem to work for money, but I dont like the idea of putting them with mercenaries despite Bronn achieves it after being really loyal to Tyrion and Lannisters.
I think they would be better at the 25 lvl lancer of sworn troops, wouldn't they? A Lord raises knight from his armies rather than from mercenaries I think. They would still be worse than true faction knights.
About the lowborn troop tree. How are you going to get Dornish&Northern horseman to wear different armors if they are in the same tree as common militia? I mean, if it's the same troop for all factions, aren't they going to wear the same equipment?
That is a tree for player's troops. Kingdoms will have a copies of units from this tree, with colored coats. If player will obtain any kingdom's unit under his command, that unit will be converted to it's base version.
Good work, we're making progress!
1) For ironmen, I would just rename "Warrior" into "Sailor" and thus cancel out all alternative upgrades from their main troop tree. Would be nice to keep them really distinct. Also, as Manhunters would no longer have horses, maybe rename them "Pirates"?
2) As you said, upgrade levels sure need tweaking. "Sandrider" (a good name, imho) should probably not be superior to "Veteran Knight"? Perhaps sworn troops should start from higher position? Like their 1st tier would be about equal with miliitia's 2nd tier and from there on, the difference would slowly decrease, but in a way that the best castle troop would be a wee better than the best corresponding lowborn troop.
Smth like: Militia (or Recruit?) 1, Footman 8, Swordsman 17, Plate Swordsman 25
Watchman 10, Castle Guard 17, Pikeman 23, Halberdier 30
Sworn Knight 15; Veteran Knight 25, Champion 32.
Mercenaries could remain as is.
3) I did pretty much like the system in 0.4.1 where each faction has an "extra" upgrade level in a certain troop tree (Tyrells: Highgarden Master Archers, Lannisters Lionguards etc). So while keeping your basic system, we could keep this tradition and add one extra strong troop for each faction to have some diversity. That is, if anybody else likes the idea too.
About the lowborn troop tree. How are you going to get Dornish&Northern horseman to wear different armors if they are in the same tree as common militia? I mean, if it's the same troop for all factions, aren't they going to wear the same equipment?
Answer is:That is a tree for player's troops. Kingdoms will have a copies of units from this tree, with colored coats. If player will obtain any kingdom's unit under his command, that unit will be converted to it's base version.
So, the same troops of different kingdoms will have the same name, skills, weapon and armor stats, but appearance of weapons and armor will differ, depending on faction.
2) As you said, upgrade levels sure need tweaking. "Sandrider" (a good name, imho) should probably not be superior to "Veteran Knight"? Perhaps sworn troops should start from higher position? Like their 1st tier would be about equal with miliitia's 2nd tier and from there on, the difference would slowly decrease, but in a way that the best castle troop would be a wee better than the best corresponding lowborn troop.
Smth like: Militia (or Recruit?) 1, Footman 8, Swordsman 17, Plate Swordsman 25
Watchman 10, Castle Guard 17, Pikeman 23, Halberdier 30
Sworn Knight 15; Veteran Knight 25, Champion 32.
Mercenaries could remain as is.
Well, I could be wrong, but I've thought that for all non-hero troops, level values means only an amount of experience, needed for upgrading to next tier. All equipment, skills and attributes are specified in troops implementation, so troops of equal level could be very differ in total power.
Troop level does change the stats, exactly the same as if the player increased by that many levels - points added to attributes, skills, and weapons appropriately.
I also liked the idea of sworn troops having the extra tier as in 0.4.1. I felt this accurately reflected the dedicated resources only available to recognized masters of a large organization... something not available to say, mercenaries or bandits. Could Lannisters field Tournament-level knights to the battlefield nearly unmatched in skill and equipment? Absolutely. Could a top tier bandit or mercenary (hedge-knight) match this? Not so much.
I've read several articles about balancing in strategy and role-playing games, and now have several ideas about balancing different kingdoms' armies and items' prices.
However, I'm planning to engage in it only after I'll finish with sailing AI.
I've read several articles about balancing in strategy and role-playing games, and now have several ideas about balancing different kingdoms' armies and items' prices.
However, I'm planning to engage in it only after I'll finish with sailing AI.
I thin I mentioned it on the original thread. I've got the RPG of Game of Thrones, I dislike d20 system but I bought it anyways. It has prices about weapons, armors and horses, though the amounts are not nearly the same, it can provide some odds and references. Also, it comes with some info about each main House's armies, the odds between infantrymen and cavalry and even some preferred tactics. However it's not written by G. R. Martin, but was somehow supervised by him and approved.
The wights just carry the armor they had before their death, but usually drop their weapons as they seem to be insanely strong (this could be difficult to create with RCM, I think even a 10 power strike with bare hands would deal no damage, or a really low one, to a decent armor). Anyways, I'm not sure if they carried some weapons, so maybe they could.
About the Others, they use a really wierd armor, it changes itself to match the surrounding shadows and colour, as a charmeleon. I don't know if it's a chain or plate mail, if complete or just half-body. And have no idea about its resistance as no single character was able to hit it with normal weapons. Their weapons seem to be only swords. These swords look like blue-ice if I recall it right, are really thiny and fast and they spread coldness to wathever it touches, so it can break steel weapons. Also they made some crying metalic noise when they are swung.
Other features about the Others: they don't make noise while walking, only obsidiane has been proved to kill them, and they ride undead horses (and Westeros own mythology says they even ride some giant ice spiders.)
However, trying to change out every weapon in the game with scripts would be an impossible nightmare. Bad plan. Most horrible bad plan in a long list of bad plans.
I get the feeling that a lot of stuff that needs to be in here has not been planned out ahead of time. That's a worrying trend. (Heck, starting a mod without anybody on models is pretty serious, even if everything else was working perfectly.)
I"ll be happy as long as i can fight for House Tyrell (if i even choose too) without feeling like a Saracen or something! :) Just seemed like it killed the whole westeros mood.
That's exactly what I felt like too. The first time I played I picked House Tyrell, but was disappointed to see their style of dress. Thankfully, that's one of the things that will get changed with the next versions of ASoIaF.
just out of curiousity, how many men did the river lords contribute to robb's cause, cos it didnt sound like they did a lot
From your post, I understand that you advocate running, correct? Or do you advocate not getting into trouble at all?
Anyway, we've had this discussion before in the Onin No Ran RCM thread so I'll not press on here as well. I just wanted to show everyone just how bad Highgarden Master Archers are at targeting. As if their armour wasn't bad enough, their aim is also agonizingly off. I mean, these guys couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, let alone targeting lone troops from a range upwards of 10 yards. Preposterous I say! This matter deems looking into! Here is a screenshot that demonstrates the aim (or better said, lack of it) of Highgarden Master Archers:
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii123/AgentGriff/headshot.jpg)
Just shameful. I'd be afraid to show my face on the street after pulling off such a shot. All the other archers would surely laugh and point and say There's the guy that shot the Kingsguard through his visor!.
Disgraceful, innit?
* Gloves or gauntlets maid of mail (III: 157)