MBX

Mount&Blade Expansion => The Last Days => TLD.808 => Topic started by: Ancientwanker on January 17, 2007, 08:04:16 AM

Title: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on January 17, 2007, 08:04:16 AM
Merlkir has done nearly all the concept art for TLD, and his work is a huge inspiration to the team and the entire visual direction of the mod. Many Kudos to this talented man!

Concept Art, by Merlkir

(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs37/f/2008/269/6/0/TLD_Intro__Dwarves_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc31.deviantart.com/fs35/f/2008/304/a/a/Elven_Helmet_Evolution_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc46.deviantart.com/fs30/f/2008/072/b/3/Men_of_Dale_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs39/f/2008/315/1/8/Knight_of_Arnor_by_Merlkir.jpg)(http://fc81.deviantart.com/fs22/f/2007/311/b/1/Bardian_Archer_Color_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/266/b/7/TLD___Lossarnach_sketches_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs46/f/2009/197/8/a/Rivendell_archer_sketch_by_Merlkir.jpg)(http://th02.deviantart.net/fs46/300W/f/2009/196/e/2/Rivendell_style_revamp_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs49/i/2009/186/1/5/Elven_Sword_Evolution_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/171/d/8/Rohan_helmet_sketch_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs48/i/2009/171/0/3/Rohan_helmet_sketches_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs43/f/2009/093/8/6/Harad_swords_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/008/4/a/Numenorean_Royal_Guard_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs39/f/2009/001/0/f/Easterling_Tribes_from_Khand_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs39/f/2008/315/6/4/Dunedain_Sketch_by_Merlkir.jpg)(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs44/f/2009/073/e/8/Dol_Amroth_swords_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs38/f/2008/325/7/0/Dwarven_Sergeant_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs39/f/2008/325/e/6/Dwarven_Veteran_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs39/f/2008/325/f/3/Dwarven_Gear_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs39/f/2008/325/e/6/Snowbourne_Riders_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs34/f/2008/304/c/2/Dunnish_Tall_Helmets_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs28/f/2008/099/b/a/Troll_slayer_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs26/f/2008/099/b/9/Dale_Dismounted_Noble_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs25/f/2008/040/d/f/Elven_helms_2_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs22/f/2008/018/1/b/Fighting_Uruk_Hai_Repaint_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://merlkir.deviantart.com/art/Heavy-cavalry-of-Rhun-71755263)

(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs10/i/2006/090/b/8/Dunedain_rangers_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/173/9/d/Wulfling_by_Merlkir.jpg)
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs21/f/2007/277/f/2/Lorien_Archer_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs12/i/2006/280/5/5/Dunedain_at_War_concept_by_Merlkir.jpg)

(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs19/f/2007/248/d/d/Protectors_of_Gondor_by_Merlkir.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Raz on January 17, 2007, 04:51:06 PM
The sketches.. they.. just don't end..

Astoundishing work on this Merlkir!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 18, 2007, 03:45:36 AM
thanks, Raz :) I haven't actually drawn anything for a long time. The races seem to be set in their styles, the art work on the last update is mainly done...I don't know, maybe texturing is what I should do now. But I miss the drawing, I sure do. It was fun. Looking for inspiration, exploring the styles, the fear of critics when I posted it to the forums :D
Nah, I really miss it. Used to fill my afternoons. Or boring school lessons.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Forral on January 18, 2007, 10:43:46 AM
Well, you could always try doing concept art for other mods as well, if you've got the time. I suppose with the different styles of mods in progress, it'd be a very varied and challanging task.

Either way, this is good stuff. I always loved the berserker.

-Forral-
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 18, 2007, 11:54:13 AM
Yeah, I guess so. I've offered help to Raz, but I guess HW doesn't need me. If you know anyone who would want me to help, PM me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Winter on January 18, 2007, 03:59:21 PM
Yeah, I guess so. I've offered help to Raz, but I guess HW doesn't need me. If you know anyone who would want me to help, PM me.

There's me. :P

Prowlingly,
Winter
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Gil-Galad on January 19, 2007, 01:43:19 PM
Merlkir i just wanna say that you are awsome!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 19, 2007, 03:24:13 PM
Merlkir i just wanna say that you are awsome!

thank you :) If you want to see more pictures other than tolkien related, visit my online gallery:

http://merlkir.deviantart.com (http://merlkir.deviantart.com)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stemmers? on January 19, 2007, 03:30:50 PM
I'm can't see any pictures past the first troll. On my computer it looks like a few dozen image boxes just got piled on top of each other and are now overlapping, or something. I had the same trouble on the M&B forums.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 19, 2007, 03:33:41 PM
I'm can't see any pictures past the first troll. On my computer it looks like a few dozen image boxes just got piled on top of each other and are now overlapping, or something. I had the same trouble on the M&B forums.

I guess some PCs or browsers (or combination ;)) just don't handle this kind of a picture load well :(
Nothing I can do about it. Some of the pics are in that gallery of mine..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 20, 2007, 05:12:01 PM
I'm working on a new elven archer outfit (maybe for Lothlorien), comments?

(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9715/elvenarcher7ib.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 20, 2007, 05:29:09 PM
woot, tabard ftw! :) me likes. I would say Rivendell as it matches the current armor with a tabard you and Stefano made.
Again, great work :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Yoshiboy on January 21, 2007, 07:34:47 AM
Looks great, how about instead of the white shirt around the neck area, making that bit gold or some other colour?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 21, 2007, 10:51:37 AM
Thanks guys. That's a good idea Yoshi, maybe I'll add some detail to the sleeves as well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on January 21, 2007, 11:43:07 AM
Yeah, thats a nice one.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 21, 2007, 11:52:59 AM
Here's a slightly changed version:

(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/223/elvenarcher26mn.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Yoshiboy on January 21, 2007, 11:57:49 AM
Looks great!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 21, 2007, 12:02:30 PM
I like it, especially the sleeves.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on January 21, 2007, 07:26:00 PM
I like it, alot. but, would an archer wear a shirt that has sleeves that baggy? methinks it would interfere with the actual archery part, in real life. but I'm no expert on actual archers, just a nit-picking asshole, so ignore me if you please :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 21, 2007, 08:53:09 PM
I like it, alot. but, would an archer wear a shirt that has sleeves that baggy? methinks it would interfere with the actual archery part, in real life. but I'm no expert on actual archers, just a nit-picking asshole, so ignore me if you please :P

If you would edit the model he wouldn't, heh.  :P

Here's another one using another new .808 model, this would be a Lothlorien knight based on Merlkir's sketch. I couldn't give him the appropriate helm and shield, but you get the idea.

(http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7936/lothlorienknight10ri.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on January 21, 2007, 09:13:27 PM
that one looks nice as well :D I actually sent Aw a BRF with the redone Lorien Knight shield a while back, after he sent out the dev version. I also have the Lorien Helm at a point where I'm fairly satisfied with it and it could be textured... I've sent you a few emails over the last couple of months, with texture maps for various things, as well as the redone Dunland shields, but hadn't heard back so I wasn't sure if you got them or not...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 21, 2007, 09:24:08 PM
Send me a texture map for the helm.  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 22, 2007, 12:58:45 AM
ooooohhh....my sketches finally come to life. Lovable :)

About the archer, don't worry, good archers don't have a problem with baggy sleeves.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 22, 2007, 03:58:56 AM
and I loved that helm Octo made for Lothlorien knights actually. I hope It the texture turns out just as great. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Anshelm Lays on January 22, 2007, 04:16:55 AM
oh, those screens are looking great!
absolutely wonderful job guys(and girls if any  :green:)
keep up the good work!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 22, 2007, 04:37:15 AM
I think there are no girls in the TLD team. Unless Octo or Blade hide their true identity (I've always suspected them  :) ;))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on January 22, 2007, 09:03:53 AM
I actually had to completely redo the Lorien Knight helm, as it was waaaaaaaaaaaaay to high poly... I've got a new one done now, that's like 1/4 of the polies of that last one  :lol:

the rivendell and Lothlorien shields I redid... DaBlade's textures...
(http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/152/rivendellshield5er.th.jpg) (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rivendellshield5er.jpg)
(http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1810/lorienshield3ss.th.jpg) (http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lorienshield3ss.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 22, 2007, 09:24:32 AM
woot :) nice. Not very flashy, but attractive. with the 0.808 shaders these are going to look amazing. Good job, guys :)

octo: and the helmet looks good? 3/4 polygon reduction sounds serious :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Yoshiboy on January 22, 2007, 10:40:53 AM
on the Lothlorien knight texture I'd consider making the chain mail around the top silver again, it feels like there is a little too much gold. Although i'm not sure.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 22, 2007, 12:49:55 PM
on the Lothlorien knight texture I'd consider making the chain mail around the top silver again, it feels like there is a little too much gold. Although i'm not sure.

I'm not done with it yet. I'm even not sure that will be chain, depends on the helm. I'll need to see it with all the gear before making further adjustements.

Octo, those shields are looking better now, good job.  :) I don't like the color scheme I used on the top one much, but I'll work on it one of these days.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 22, 2007, 05:42:55 PM
Here's an updated version of the Lothlorien knight. The mail around the neck is not so golden anymore and added some new details to the belt.

(http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/663/lothlorienknight28zp.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on January 22, 2007, 08:16:05 PM
on the Lothlorien knight texture I'd consider making the chain mail around the top silver again, it feels like there is a little too much gold. Although i'm not sure.
I think it was an idea for Lothlorien that they use bronze scale to be kind of a representative of the "golden wood" with the scales looking a bit like golden leaves.

Merlkir, like I said, it was wayyyyy too high poly to begin with. the new one is pushing 500, looks fine, IMO.

DaBlade, I'll get those texture maps to you soon :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 22, 2007, 09:09:15 PM
Yeah, the elves from Lothlorien will be the "golden elves", but as I stated before I'm still not sure what I'll make of that part.

This one I didn't change it much, I think it's perfect for the basic Dunedain.  :)

(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6366/dunedainbasic11oh.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 23, 2007, 02:56:51 AM
nice touchups on the belt!

And the dunedain one is fine, they weren't much fancypants types.. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on January 23, 2007, 09:06:07 AM
I like that DUnedain one as well. though I'd probably add a little something to indicate they are Dunedain... maybe a star on the vambraces and/or the belt; something simple like that.

also, which armor did you use for that Lorien Knight armor? I'd like to get the helm in game withit to see how well it "blends" with the neck of the armor.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 23, 2007, 11:16:49 AM
Yeah, not a bad idea (about the star).  :)

The model I used for the Lothlorien knight was the new leather coat.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on January 24, 2007, 02:32:54 PM
Awesome as always. That ranger "doodle" surprises me every time I see it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 26, 2007, 09:19:18 AM
I was thinking...the Dunnish could use shields like these celtic bronze shields..I think the shouting shield is quite similar..

(http://www.vicus.org.uk/images/celticshields4.gif)

(http://www.brigantesnation.com/celticart/Celtic/BatterseaShield.JPG)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 26, 2007, 11:10:36 AM
I think the elaborated celtic patterns style actually suit the rohirrin better, or even the elves...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 26, 2007, 11:21:26 AM
oh, I meant the shape and material more. It's sort of barbarric..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 26, 2007, 11:34:06 AM
Yeah, I agree witht that.  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on January 26, 2007, 12:17:40 PM
yeah, I think Celtic style shields should work fine for Dunland.. considering I already made 3 for them  :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 26, 2007, 12:22:18 PM
yeah, I think Celtic style shields should work fine for Dunland.. considering I already made 3 for them  :P

A PROPHET!!!! worship the Prophet!!!  :o  :o
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Anshelm Lays on January 27, 2007, 05:20:07 AM
 :lol:
yep, those shield should be really nice for the dunland.
good idea!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Scrat on January 28, 2007, 05:23:08 AM
I See some great new stuff here almost forgot about this mod ??? nah just kidding :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on January 28, 2007, 09:28:58 AM
yeah, I think Celtic style shields should work fine for Dunland.. considering I already made 3 for them  :P

A PROPHET!!!! worship the Prophet!!!  :o  :o
nah, Aw asked me to do them a while back. they're actually closer in style to the Dunnish Warlord's shield in that sketch you did, but it's Celtic nonetheless. they're not textured yet, far as I know, but you can see the models in the dev version in the lotr-octoburn BRF.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 28, 2007, 01:20:30 PM
I'm working on those shields.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Damien on February 01, 2007, 05:45:54 AM

Going back to the new Dunedain outfit. . I have a related question:

Is it possible to make a new 'glove' model that doesn't have the bunched end like the vanilla M&B glove? The reason I ask is because a fair few of the armour and clothing designs have some form of vambrace of arm-guard incorporated into their design, and it looks weird for the glove to -overlap- that design, as a glove should be tucked underneath. So it would be cool to see a glove that actually looks like it goes up underneath, instead of bunching up and over.

Just a thought.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Pellidon on February 01, 2007, 10:13:45 AM
you could just not wear gloves, but i have to agree with damien simply because i hate the hand texture, it never quite matches the skin tone, so that eliminates not wearing them.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Winter on February 01, 2007, 12:41:19 PM
Is it possible to make a new 'glove' model that doesn't have the bunched end like the vanilla M&B glove? The reason I ask is because a fair few of the armour and clothing designs have some form of vambrace of arm-guard incorporated into their design, and it looks weird for the glove to -overlap- that design, as a glove should be tucked underneath. So it would be cool to see a glove that actually looks like it goes up underneath, instead of bunching up and over.

Easy. Just make a new version of the glove and replace those parts (they're separate meshes from the actual animated 'hand' of the glove) with a 'nothing' mesh.

Cavortingly,
Winter
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 01, 2007, 04:15:26 PM
Here's an update on the Lothlorien new scale.

(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/200/lothscalemf8.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Grocat on February 01, 2007, 04:50:55 PM
Wow!  Thank you.

-Grocat
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 08, 2007, 11:06:38 AM
Forth Eorlingas expansion for the Fourth Age Total War just came out. FATW has quite wicked designs, I love them:

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=78780 (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=78780)

http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helmingasho3.png (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helmingasho3.png)

http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rkve3.png (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rkve3.png)

http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=umbargie5.png (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=umbargie5.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 08, 2007, 11:15:54 AM
ok, I've just seen screens from MiddleEarth Total War and they have even cooler designs! damn, my concept artist's heart weepes :)

http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=688&sid=9f917208940637a69022c93be46711b4 (http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=688&sid=9f917208940637a69022c93be46711b4)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 08, 2007, 11:23:03 AM
well, I don't like everything, but some of them are pretty good.

this link is maybe more useful, it's factions previews:

http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=252&sid=9f917208940637a69022c93be46711b4 (http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=252&sid=9f917208940637a69022c93be46711b4)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 08, 2007, 01:04:08 PM
Yeah, they've done a very good job.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 09, 2007, 08:54:19 AM
As I disliked John Howe's work for being too epic and fantasy in the past, visiting his page now changed my mind :) thanks for the link, Pellidon. I think mostly the designs he painted for the card game are excellent and most of them could be used for referrence. Gimli is great, easterlings, nazgul and other are awesome too.

http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/ (http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/)

edit: he's  really good. Some perfect weapon and armor designs. It's good that he's a smith and knows various types of stuff used through the history...his first narsil sketches are almost identical to one of my corsair sword designs :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 09, 2007, 09:11:08 AM
:D :D John Howe's comment on the Helm's Deep siege :

"On the other hand, what I DO want to know is how all those unfortunate Elves, who were armoured from head to toe, died to a man (well, to an Elf...), whereas Legolas, with his wee leather shoulder guards, survived unscathed... "

yeah, me too ;))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on February 09, 2007, 09:34:25 AM
That's simple.

In the books, there's no Elves besides Legolas at the battle of Helm's Deep.
So if PJ deviated the start of the battle, by adding a company of them, he couldn't deviate the end of the battle, to have some left alive.
So none were left alive. If they weren't killed by Saruman's forces, they committed seppuku in the final stages of the battle, to stay aligned with their role in the plot.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 09, 2007, 09:56:05 AM
That's simple.

In the books, there's no Elves besides Legolas at the battle of Helm's Deep.
So if PJ deviated the start of the battle, by adding a company of them, he couldn't deviate the end of the battle, to have some left alive.
So none were left alive. If they weren't killed by Saruman's forces, they committed seppuku in the final stages of the battle, to stay aligned with their role in the plot.

I know, what he meant was that Legolas could have worn more armor than just the leather shoulder :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on February 09, 2007, 10:34:25 AM
I know.

But Legolas would have survived even if he fought naked and armed only with a spoon.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Fisheye on February 09, 2007, 11:39:34 AM
He would survive and he would be perfectly coiffured hair, clean face, bloodless hands and pristine armor.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Pellidon on February 09, 2007, 04:29:12 PM
(http://img.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/021230/91022__lotr_l.jpg)
hah! right there, dirt on the face :lol:
he's also using a sword, weird
but you forgot to mention the full quiver of arrows, he's always got enough ammo
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 09, 2007, 04:59:25 PM
spam! :D

found some ideas..maybe for variags..

http://podomni.prodejce.cz/alexandrjaroslavic.jpg (http://podomni.prodejce.cz/alexandrjaroslavic.jpg)

the guy in the lower left corner is great!

http://podomni.prodejce.cz/alexandrnevsky1.jpg (http://podomni.prodejce.cz/alexandrnevsky1.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on February 09, 2007, 09:16:41 PM
As I disliked John Howe's work for being too epic and fantasy in the past, visiting his page now changed my mind :) thanks for the link, Pellidon. I think mostly the designs he painted for the card game are excellent and most of them could be used for referrence. Gimli is great, easterlings, nazgul and other are awesome too.

http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/ (http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/)

edit: he's  really good. Some perfect weapon and armor designs. It's good that he's a smith and knows various types of stuff used through the history...his first narsil sketches are almost identical to one of my corsair sword designs :D

  http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/details.php?image_id=92 

        What I dont understand is why in this picture are Gimli and Legolas wearing so much armor. I thought that they traveled light and did not bring armor with them, unless they picked it up at Helms Deep which I am sure would not be of this likeness.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Meloncat on February 09, 2007, 11:06:54 PM
Not to mention why Gimili is wearing Mail and plate, in the style that seems iconic for Iran. :D Hm, I forgot it was used by the Russians too. For some reason it just seems very typical of Iran or the Turks.

I like the Rus-look for the Variags. Like we discussed long ago on the M&B forums, the variags seem best to be a Russian/Tartar-Central Asian people.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 10, 2007, 03:16:46 AM
I don't mind them being armored. Gimli was carrying his gear with him, no? and Legolas...I don't like the design, but I always thought that he had some light elven armor with him as well.
The armor's design Gimli is wearing is great. Nothing necessarilly edged and squared like the movie (and the games after it) dwarves wore...looks well crafted and efficient.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on February 10, 2007, 03:19:14 PM
Well I am rereading the trilogy and just yesterday I finished the felllowship. I recall that it said that they brought little weapons and armor with them because there hopes were not in force but in secret.

But I started reading the book eight days ago, so me and my exceptionally crappy memory could be wrong. I will try to find the quote.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 10, 2007, 03:26:26 PM
don't know about legolas, but I think I recall gimli refusing an offer to take some gear from rohan armory cause he had his own chain mail and a steel cap..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Damien on February 10, 2007, 10:37:46 PM

Tolkien was quite specific. The only member of the Fellowship, barring Frodo, that wore armour from the start, or had any with him for that matter, was Gimli. He wore a mail shirt. He took no armour at the Hornburg not because he didn't need it, but because Rohan would not have armour fit for a Dwarf. He did take a shield. Aragorn took a mail hauberk. I don't recall if Legolas took anything. But either way, neither would be wearing forms of plate armour, especially not the crap Howe has Legolas wearing. Plate armour did not exist in Middle-earth. Howe knows this. He just really likes plate armour, so that's what he draws fairly often. I love Howe's art, but in some ways it's distinctly NOT based on Tolkien's actual words. He gives Fingolfin blonde hair, for instance, when Tolkien was quite specific that he, as well as much of his kin, had dark hair.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2007, 04:22:43 AM
god bless Damien for his certainty :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Damien on February 11, 2007, 05:47:24 AM

God and I have discussed this and decided that I will not be blessed, but neither will I be damned. I think it's a good deal. But I appreciate the thought.

Long time no see, Merl. I missed ya', buddy.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2007, 07:23:01 AM

God and I have discussed this and decided that I will not be blessed, but neither will I be damned. I think it's a good deal. But I appreciate the thought.

Long time no see, Merl. I missed ya', buddy.



good to see you too ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: AlxCruel on February 14, 2007, 01:02:32 AM
I made a eastern form war horse(saddle from hanter horse, battle horsecloth and neck like neck of curser):
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2382/haradwarhorse1ws1.jpg)
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4534/haradwarhorse2ee4.jpg)
I tried to make it like battle horse of iranian shah's guards.
(http://tw.org.ua/components/com_datsogallery/sub_wm.php?src=/home/tw/public_html/components/com_datsogallery/img_pictures/med_gulem.jpg)
It can be used as harad warhorse.
Maybe somebody interested. I can send it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Meloncat on February 15, 2007, 05:13:28 PM
That's a really gorgeous horse Alxcruel. Can I ask where that inspirational image came from? The symbol makes me think it was an RTW or MTWII mod.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on February 15, 2007, 10:43:23 PM
alright, here's a mock up of a sword based on a pic I posted in the old forums... (http://www.china-cart.com/bookpic/20054/2005425194514.jpg)

(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5681/chineseswordss5.th.jpg) (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chineseswordss5.jpg)

the texture is pretty bland, it's just a basic "brass" texture with no carvings or anything (as I'm unable to do such myself.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 16, 2007, 03:08:59 AM
it's that chinese one, right...
Nice! :) I'm sure someone can do something to the texture..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: AlxCruel on February 16, 2007, 04:06:52 AM
Meloncat

That's a really gorgeous horse Alxcruel. Can I ask where that inspirational image came from? The symbol makes me think it was an RTW or MTWII mod.

It's from gallery of this site http://tw.org.ua. But it's russian-language site.
You are right it about TW-games.

:)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Nahkis on February 16, 2007, 05:36:53 AM
I'd imagine riders of rohan using something like that.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 20, 2007, 09:27:01 AM
I've got an offer from a good modeller(and texturer) I know that he'd like to try some low poly stuff. Do you guys think there's something he should try? maybe something complicated...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on February 26, 2007, 10:55:38 PM
concept art, or something more?

(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7235/newdwarfswordqs9.th.jpg) (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdwarfswordqs9.jpg)(http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1206/newdwarfswordbso1.th.jpg) (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdwarfswordbso1.jpg)(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2641/newdwarfswordchj1.th.jpg) (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdwarfswordchj1.jpg)(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9459/newdwarfsworddov0.th.jpg) (http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdwarfsworddov0.jpg)(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8317/newdwarfswordevu6.th.jpg) (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdwarfswordevu6.jpg)
(http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4210/newdwarfswordfok4.th.jpg) (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdwarfswordfok4.jpg)(http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4499/newdwarfswordgqi9.th.jpg) (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdwarfswordgqi9.jpg)(http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/5920/newdwarfswordhkr7.th.jpg) (http://img478.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdwarfswordhkr7.jpg)(http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5796/newdwarfswordicr1.th.jpg) (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdwarfswordicr1.jpg)

all textured to one 1024x1024 sheet... and none go over 350 polys, while 5 of them are under 200 polys...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 27, 2007, 02:55:20 AM
Wow, great job on those swords. Great textures too, is that your work also?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 27, 2007, 04:59:12 AM
You could have kept those a secret a while longer, Octoburn ;)
But hell....they really are beautiful :)

I asked Octo to model those, I thought TLD could use some very nice higher detailed swords, well crafted, for a race preview I'm working on. As AW is taking a break, I can't tell if they're ever going to make it in the game, but they'll fit very nicely with the style I'm creating for this surprise of mine :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 27, 2007, 10:22:23 AM
Yeah, those look nice.   Dont worry, Ill be back. Starting to feel the itch...but not quite yet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 27, 2007, 12:59:52 PM
OK, this is the final version of the Lothlorien scale (me thinks). Added this tabard, doesn't look exactly as I hoped it would due to the texture mapping, but I think it's an improvement over the previous versions. What do you guys think?

(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5956/lothscalefn5.jpg) (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lothscalefn5.jpg)

The model looks a bit on the chubby side for an elf (IMO), but maybe that can be corrected at a later stage.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 27, 2007, 01:02:43 PM
definitely kickass! :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on February 27, 2007, 07:24:07 PM
You could have kept those a secret a while longer, Octoburn ;)
But hell....they really are beautiful :)

sorry, couldn't resist :P was too proud of the results to keep it under wraps for long ;)

Wow, great job on those swords. Great textures too, is that your work also?
well... if you want to call cutting and pasting from photos "my work" :P Merlkir had some great photos I used to work with, and they turned out great...

The model looks a bit on the chubby side for an elf (IMO), but maybe that can be corrected at a later stage.
I agree and always have with this model and some of the other native models... what's supposed to look like "bagginess" (I presume) appears to be a "spare tire"... very unbecoming for the Elven-kind...

Aw, glad you're getting the itch again... I think some of us were starting to get a bit worried :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 27, 2007, 08:58:53 PM
Real nice armor Dablade, should work.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on February 27, 2007, 10:11:36 PM
Did the elves have scale armor? Never thought they did.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 28, 2007, 01:49:18 AM
oh, they sure did :)

And chubbiness is ok, they wear some padding under the scale so..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 28, 2007, 05:18:25 AM
possible referrence for easterlings?

http://www.historicalmovie.com/c/15/163_nomad__directed_by_ivan_passer.html (http://www.historicalmovie.com/c/15/163_nomad__directed_by_ivan_passer.html)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 01, 2007, 04:40:07 PM
Yeah, very cool stuff in that page, Merlkir. Good catch. :)

I've change the Rivendel archer a bit, I think it looks more elvish now. Not sure if I should make the shirt grey or something like that, what do you guys think?

(http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/729/rivendelarchermv2.th.jpg) (http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rivendelarchermv2.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 01, 2007, 08:09:19 PM
I like it... but, it may be a bit too... green. I don't mind the green, overall, and the mixture of the gold in with it does differentiate them from the Woodelves... maybe try making it a bit more gray (like you mentioned) similar to that you used on the shild texture? I dont know... like I said, I like it, but something about it strikes me as a bit "off" but I can't put my finger on it...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 01, 2007, 08:19:41 PM
Looks interesting, might be a nice change of pace from the "all one or two color" schemes we have for factions.  Maybe a bit more gold (not too much) would tie it in more with the lothlorien stuff.  It could either work for archers or maybe the high level sentinel ranger types.  Just an idea, do what you like...

My first instinct was woodelf but a break from the standard colors could be good.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 02, 2007, 04:27:45 AM
I think I like the previous blue version better. But I'm at school and this computer's monitor has some seriously weird contrast and colors. Will check it again at home..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 02, 2007, 08:08:16 AM
a couple of swords I found while browsing around on my other PC last night...

(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2973/tyrfullrf6.th.jpg) (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tyrfullrf6.jpg)
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/858/patriciafullfo0.th.jpg) (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patriciafullfo0.jpg)(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2370/patriciahiltxq5.th.jpg) (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=patriciahiltxq5.jpg)

and... they've got runes :green: never a bad thing...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 02, 2007, 01:24:18 PM
are those models? can't tell. They look great!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 02, 2007, 02:15:32 PM
Yeah, those swords look good.

The archer is blue again, but I kept this cloth pattern. I was thinking this would be good for 1st tier archers. Second tier I'm working on (using the new .808 light leather), and for 3rd tier we could use the previous "heavy scale", changing the name to "light scale". For the Sentinel/Rangers we could use the previous leather jerkin which was used by all these units and for which I have already updated textures. How does that sound to you?

Basic archer:
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4100/rivendelarcherbluekp1.th.jpg) (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rivendelarcherbluekp1.jpg)

Sentinel/Ranger:
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8318/rivendelsentinelxc8.th.jpg) (http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rivendelsentinelxc8.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 02, 2007, 02:57:03 PM
Looking good! .)

I would keep the schemes we have now with some exceptions...Rivendell- blue/silver/gray Lorien - blue/gold/autumn colors Woodelves - green/brown/gray
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on March 02, 2007, 09:22:14 PM
Wow, textures look excellent as always guys!
But you guys REALLY need to give elves those elven ears, and various other elven features and characteristics.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 02, 2007, 09:29:54 PM
@DaBlade: looks good, I likes it alot  :D

@Merlkir: no, they're just pictures, not models... yet. but I will take it as quite a compliment that you can't tell the difference. :-[

EDIT: I'm thinking of making some unique functional/animated quivers... any suggewstions for style, etc?

EDIT Part Deux: (don't want to doublre post :P) just finished modelling and mapping this in the last 45 minutes or so... the textures a bit too blurry for my liking, but I don't think it'll be that noticable in game... 330 tris...

(http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3884/sword03nm1.th.jpg) (http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sword03nm1.jpg)

still have one more to do (I think) of those Merlkir requested...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 01:57:32 AM
I can't see any pictures! I'm blind!! or imageshack is down.. ;)

***gone looking for quivers***
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 02:06:08 AM
If this isn't a lucky find! :D
LOTR themed quivers and bracers:

http://tuatha.club.fr/cuir.htm (http://tuatha.club.fr/cuir.htm)

that guy's unbelievable, all those bracers and belt bags, even the horse head armor...very stylish!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 02:41:34 AM
and some more not that pretty quivers:

(http://www.hightowercrafts.com/quiver-black.jpg)

(http://www.leatherbywc.com/HuntersQuiver.jpg)

(http://www.21stcenturylongbow.com/Quiver.jpg)

http://www.hermitagerooms.com/exhibitions/Byzantium/quiver.asp (http://www.hermitagerooms.com/exhibitions/Byzantium/quiver.asp)

(http://www.steppenreiter.de/images/Kleidung/bow%20quiver%20arrow.jpg)

(http://verizonsupersite.com/nwarcherycom/nss-folder/otherarcherytackle1/37-leather-side-quiver-a.jpg)

(http://verizonsupersite.com/nwarcherycom/nss-folder/otherarcherytackle1/36-Leather-back-quiver-a-.jpg)

(http://verizonsupersite.com/nwarcherycom/nss-folder/otherarcherytackle1/35-Bowers-Stealth-Quiver.jpg)

(http://lustyleather.com/images3/24quiver3.jpg)

(http://lustyleather.com/images/quiver.jpg)

(http://www.phil.muni.cz/muzeo/mui03obrazky0405/mui03obrazky0405/puvodni/531.jpg)

(http://drakkaria.com/obchod/fotky/272b.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 03, 2007, 02:54:03 AM

EDIT Part Deux: (don't want to doublre post :P) just finished modelling and mapping this in the last 45 minutes or so... the textures a bit too blurry for my liking, but I don't think it'll be that noticable in game... 330 tris...

(http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3884/sword03nm1.th.jpg) (http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sword03nm1.jpg)

still have one more to do (I think) of those Merlkir requested...

Looks great, except for the grip which looks too thin IMHO. It's a great job anyway, well done! :)

Very nice stuff, Merlkir. I think I'll "borrow" some bits of those images for future textures. :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 03:39:08 AM
the grip is quite ok I think. Here's the original photo.
Are you going to make the scabbards also, Octo?

(http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/103-german_sword_spatha/a03av.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on March 03, 2007, 03:52:21 AM
The grip looks good and the whole thing looks great, but I would think that would be too thin to actually use.

I hope that the increased forum activity of DB and AW means that the next version is underway again....
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 03, 2007, 04:09:02 AM
A lot of European swords, especially early ones, had very thin grips.  Probably had a lot to do with the practice of wearing very heavy and/or armored gloves.  The "original" grips were made to account for this ... then anyone wishing to fight without armored mittens would wrap the handle in leather straps to get the desired bulk and feel.

Japan, in contrast, left the palm of the hand uncovered - only armoring the back of the hand and wrist.  Even the Japanese swords intended for major combat had grips for use with bare hands, or at most, very thin gloves.  Same problem - different approach.

The thin grips on the Nordic-looking sword are historical to that design.  How well the design applies to Tolkien literature ... it's been too long since I really studied his work.

----------------------------

AW has said on several posts that he's not ready to start on the port to .808 yet, but he's thinking about it.  The other mods have generally taken a month or so to port to .808 even at best speed (and most of them were nowhere near as complex as some of the scripting in TLD), so don't get in a hurry. 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 04:12:13 AM
These swords (except the nordic ones) are mostly german spathas. So I would see the grip as a heavy roman influence. Looks a lot like roman spatha or gladius.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 03, 2007, 04:45:21 AM
These swords (except the nordic ones) are mostly german spathas. So I would see the grip as a heavy roman influence. Looks a lot like roman spatha or gladius.

I don't see it.  Roman blades were not tapered - they were either wide with parallel edges, or in the case of the Mainz pattern gladius, teardrop flare blade.  Roman military hilts were mostly round guard and round pommel/counterbalance, not the flat crosspieces here.  Rome valued the stabbing attacks, so the one with the rather rounded point is certainly not the blade of the Legions.  These look Northern Europe - anywhere from 3rd century B.C. to 10th A.D., Gaelic, Breton, Norse, or Frankish - but I don't really see any significant sign of Roman influence (other than the basic commonality that a sword is a sword).

The narrow grip looks a little later than the others - probably 8th century or later, after maille mittens were the big popular trend in armor.

Roman Imperial blades balance funny - you can pick them out at a distance, if you know what you're looking for.  These aren't them.

-------------------------------------------

I guess I'm going to have to dig up a complete copy of Tolkien's work and read it word-for-word, and try to figure out what the swords were supposed to look like.  Guessing the date and region on swords doesn't really help when you're trying to simulate a fantasy setting.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 05:06:08 AM
antique helmets from Slovakia, may serve as a referrence for rohan helmets decoration maybe?

(http://www.valka.cz/newdesign/v900/html_images/7_2005/image1120463251.jpg)

(http://www.valka.cz/newdesign/v900/html_images/7_2005/image1120463266.jpg)


Ron: we're talking about the grip. My comment about similarities was on the grip. The fact most of these swords are spathas might of course imply a clear connection to roman spathas. (which were mostly cavalry swords..) I admit spatha is a quite wide term, but still.

Roman spathas look like this.

(http://www.armor.com/2000/Catalog/images/902detail.jpg)

(http://www.ancientedge.com/images_products/192_small.jpg)

even tapered:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/02/Roman_spatha.jpg)

(http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/history/romans/artefacts/051221_pelliott_mp_his_ww2_057.jpg)

(http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/history/romans/artefacts/051221_pelliott_mp_his_ww2_058.jpg)

(http://www.trajan20.freeserve.co.uk/img26.jpg)

even the scabbard style is similar:

(http://www.larp.com/legioxx/Gregscbrd.jpg)
(http://www.hr-replikate.de/produkte/bilder/balteus.jpg)

another antique spatha:

(http://www.dietraumschmiede.de/schau/dybeck3.jpg)

and a reproduction

(http://www.dietraumschmiede.de/schau/dyneu.jpg)

(http://www.dietraumschmiede.de/schau/dyneudetail.jpg)

and one more:

(http://www.dietraumschmiede.de/schau/fridingen1.jpg)

(http://www.dietraumschmiede.de/schau/fridingendetail.jpg)

(http://www.die-bajuwaren.de/Fotos/Alltag/Waffen/Spatha.jpg)

this one looks more like nordic swords...I think it was a natural evolution from the "roman - like" to the heavier ones..

As for tolkien's vision..
Rohirrim were mostly based on anglo-saxons. So their swords would be something like this:

(http://www.regia.org/images/wargear/EarlySaxonSwords.jpg)

(http://www.regia.org/images/wargear/AngloSaxonHilt.jpg)
or this (which is probably a spatha..looks like it.)
(http://sussen.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/swords/saxon2ba.jpeg)

Elves were probably close to normans..so something like this:

(http://www.dietraumschmiede.de/schau/normanne.jpg)

gondorian swords would probably be of similar influence. The evil races are said to use sabres and other curved blades...
The swords I asked Octo to make were supposed to be for dwarves. Since they're short, I think they could use some nordic/german looking shorter swords.
Also Damien, an expert on warfare and shit, I admire a lot, has written a post about this topic (weapons types for different races) and was responsible for distribution of the albion sword pack among the various races in the mod.

Sorry for the long and image heavy post, people, I'm just trying to prove my point :)

edit: I don't really know. I was guessing. But something seems fishy after looking at those pics again. Maybe it was the romans who adapted the style of a longer slashing blade from the germanic origin :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 05:12:21 AM
It's funny that I was just reading this:

http://www.volny.cz/arches-straz/sbornik-mece.pdf (http://www.volny.cz/arches-straz/sbornik-mece.pdf)

it's in czech, but there are great pictures of the evolution of a frankish sword. (by petersen I believe)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 05:14:42 AM
a bit blurry and also furry hungarian quiver :)

(http://sweb.cz/Jiri.Vaclavinek/toulec.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 05:16:27 AM
if anyone reads swedish, here's a pdf with many images of nomadic like quivers..

http://www.diva-portal.org/diva/getDocument?urn_nbn_se_su_diva-1145-1__fulltext.pdf (http://www.diva-portal.org/diva/getDocument?urn_nbn_se_su_diva-1145-1__fulltext.pdf)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 05:18:05 AM
leather stripes quiver:)

(http://www.rudderbows.com/P4.jpg)

and some very beautiful easternish quivers !!

http://www.grozerarchery.com/index_ac.htm (http://www.grozerarchery.com/index_ac.htm)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 05:26:24 AM
these are pages of a friend of mine who's a smith. He has some swords there similar to the ones Octo made, but the photos are clear and big. May be used too, don't know. Just enjoy the beauty :)

http://sword-gur.com/ (http://sword-gur.com/)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 05:31:07 AM
I wouldn't mind having this one either :)

(http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/images48_gr/38397_c.jpg)(http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/images48_gr/38397.jpg)(http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/images48_gr/38397_b.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 03, 2007, 05:44:18 AM
The longer Roman spathia definitely evolved from the gladius as a result of Northern European influence.  That's generally accepted by any historian of the subject.  The eventual decline of the Roman Empire, then, gradually pushed out the Roman designs in favor of the blades of the local (Germanic) tribes that displaced them.  There were examples of transitional forms between the height of Rome and its decline.  I try not to include transitional forms in statements of origin of an idea, as it usually confuses the point.

For a historical reference on that, read Flavius Vegetius Renatus, "De Re Militari", 390AD - where he tries to encourage the stabbing attacks and associates slashing and longer swords with the barbarians (which according to him Rome used to be defeating, but the quality of the Legions had declined).

Still, you had good pictures of the rounded hilt guards and pommels I was talking about, which was my first reason for saying the previous weapon models certainly did not look Roman.

-----------------------------

I hadn't really thought of Rohan as being Anglo-Saxon based.  Everything I've read would associate the Anglo-Saxon military philosophy with infantry-heavy forces.  I would have placed them more along the lines of the Franks, or maybe even the horse-peoples of the Steppes (Huns, maybe).

I would have also placed the Elves military capabilities as being Asiatic.  The emphasis on bows, plus the superior metallurgy, sounds Asiatic ... if we're staying with the pre-12th century paradigm (i.e. before the knowledge gained from the Crusades really had time to take its' full effect).

Those were just my first impressions.

I'll have to re-read Tolkien carefully.

-----------------------

I guess it doesn't really matter.  If and when I do work up a combat model for TLD based on the RCM, I'm going to use whatever models are in the game as a basis for my numbers ... and let someone else decide which races should use what kinds of weapons.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 05:56:39 AM
ok, good we understand each other about the spatha. I figured that out too in the edit :)

It's one thing to consider their fighting styles and another considering tolkien's descriptions of their equipment and culture in general. As I would agree that the cavalry style would lead to franks or steppe tribes, from the descriptions came the anglo-saxon view. (like using a shieldwall and such..)
The same with elves. Even the movie makers came with a considerable asian-like appearance. The common agreement among tolkien lore experts are normans though, again judging from various descriptions of their equipment.
Also you have to take in consideration tolkien's influences as an Englishman. And he was no military expert either. He was a linguist writing fantasy ;) Many people dislike the tactics he describes in the books as not realistic and so on.

Damien or Aryndil would probably be able to supply quotes..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 03, 2007, 06:45:03 AM
And he was no military expert either. He was a linguist writing fantasy ;) Many people dislike the tactics he describes in the books as not realistic and so on.

Ha ... many people dislike the tactics and such that I describe, because they're TOO realistic.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 06:56:54 AM
And he was no military expert either. He was a linguist writing fantasy ;) Many people dislike the tactics he describes in the books as not realistic and so on.

Ha ... many people dislike the tactics and such that I describe, because they're TOO realistic.


that's life I guess ;) most of the internet forum users base their knowledge on holywood movies and fantasy fighting games. What do you expect? :) I know what you mean. Guys like Eogan or Damien are always ranting about that too ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 03, 2007, 07:16:25 AM

that's life I guess ;) most of the internet forum users base their knowledge on holywood movies and fantasy fighting games. What do you expect? :) I know what you mean. Guys like Eogan or Damien are always ranting about that too ;)

Isn't just the forums.  You would be surprised how many allegedly reputable historical studies are obviously tainted by entertainment ... usually not in a big way, but just enough to get the wrong conclusions.  What's worse is when actual combat training (like for military and police, or self defense) suffers from this ... because then other people suffer too.  I teach Western Culture Studies in China - they base their entire sociological research of the Western Hemisphere off of Hollywood, and look at me funny when I point out the mistake.

People are that way.  One good thing about a computer game mod - you see a mistake, you can just change it, and it happens.  People get a dumb idea in their heads, and it's hard as heck to get them to dump the bad idea and listen to reason.

One of the great benefits of the Internet is actually being able to discuss things like the origin of sword designs with people who don't say "was it sharp?" or "Where were the Romans from again?"  That's the one thing that has attracted me to the M&B mods - the level of scholarship (literary, historical, or whatever) that has gone into these.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 07:26:05 AM
I can only agree. (even if we're a bit OT, i think concept art will survive it ;) I'm planning some big updates of my artworks soon.)

Have you seen ROME that HBO made? I'm very satisfied with it..especially the last episode with the battle of Philippi was great.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 03, 2007, 07:40:12 AM
I can only agree. (even if we're a bit OT, i think concept art will survive it ;) I'm planning some big updates of my artworks soon.)

Have you seen ROME that HBO made? I'm very satisfied with it..especially the last episode with the battle of Philippi was great.

Don't really have access to HBO specials where I am.  Too bad.  Might find a copy on DVD later... I'll keep my eyes open.

And yeah, even if historical materials and studies are marginally related to sources of concept art, this is probably off-topic by now.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 03, 2007, 09:14:27 AM
@Merlkir: yeah, I plan on making the scabbards as well. and thanks for all the quiver references :D

that furry one may fit the Dunlandings, do they even have archers? maybe they'd fit the woodmen? I dunno. lol.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 09:24:08 AM
I don't think the dunnish have archers...hm. May fit the orcs :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 03, 2007, 02:55:17 PM
I watched the first season of Rome, which was excellent. Ive only seen the first 4 epsisodes of this season and so far its a little less good but Ill still catch up with it.

It has a slight pulpy Conan feel to it (set in Rome of course), which I like.  I dont know if youve seen the whole first season yet so I wont say what my favorite part is.  :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 03, 2007, 03:49:08 PM
Ohooo, wait till you see the sixth episode of the second season :) badass battle and overall very good episode.

Damn. To repay my OT here I'm probably going to post some new concepts tomorrow..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 03, 2007, 11:06:20 PM
Nothing wrong with a pulpy "Conan" feel ...

Heck, "Conan the Barbarian" had some of the best fight scenes in filmed entertainment, with the only notable exception being Akira Kurosawa's work (which was obviously better, because it did the same but with better choreography).  None of that rapier-duel touch-swords-a-dozen-times stuff, or the fluff spin around and flip over acrobatics - they hacked each other to bits like people who were trying to hack each other to bits. 

If we could make fights in M&B look that good, we would be set.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 04, 2007, 03:33:39 AM
Here's the Battle of Philippi for Ron and everyone else who doesn't have the opportunity to watch ROME :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=k6YoA_m7kss&mode=related&search= (http://youtube.com/watch?v=k6YoA_m7kss&mode=related&search=)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 07, 2007, 05:09:40 AM
another fine looking nordic sword (replica for the Beowulf and Grendel movie)

(http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/500960.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 07, 2007, 05:50:43 AM
quite evilish looking helm:

(http://drakkaria.com/obchod/fotky/9082b.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ebu Deyyus on March 07, 2007, 11:07:46 AM
http://ischler.deviantart.com/gallery/ (http://ischler.deviantart.com/gallery/)
i've never made a lotr drawing but if you like my style i can make some and  colour them
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 08, 2007, 05:36:18 AM
Cool evil helm here:

http://filmswords.com/frazetta/dealerhelm.htm
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 08, 2007, 07:11:12 AM
DaBlade: the evil helm that's already in looks similar to that, but I've always loved Frazetta so I say: give me! :D

Fine picture of muslim headgear and clothing. Might serve great for the Haradrim..

http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09dl3.jpg (http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09dl3.jpg)

I've actually stolen it from the Battle for Sicily mod thread. They have some cool looking stuff there:

(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/266/arabbronzeshieldsv5.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 08, 2007, 07:43:37 AM
I've made this shirt for the Haradrim sometime ago which is more or less along those lines. :)

(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4192/haradshirtsr9.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 08, 2007, 08:38:31 AM
looks good :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 08, 2007, 01:19:36 PM
Yeah, looks good. A bit heavy and sweaterish looking but still good.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 08, 2007, 02:15:49 PM
I think it's because of the model. It's hard to get a model of a wavy silk tunic not to look like michelin balloon man ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on March 08, 2007, 08:46:19 PM
I've actually stolen it from the Battle for Sicily mod thread. They have some cool looking stuff there:

(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/266/arabbronzeshieldsv5.jpg)
Uh...you know I made that right? I mean like, I've contributed before...if you want anything just ask.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 08, 2007, 11:10:08 PM
Cool down man, Merlkyr hasn't actually stolen it from you, has he? :P

It looked good if I remember right. But it was a bronze Hoplon, wasn't it? Hardly suitable for a ME mod IMHO.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 09, 2007, 04:39:18 AM
I've made this shirt for the Haradrim sometime ago which is more or less along those lines. :)

(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4192/haradshirtsr9.jpg)

Is it me, or do those patterns look Aztec or something?  (Maybe Inca.)

I just can't place this pattern with nomad horsemen.  Looks more like this guy should be building pyramids than running with a barbarian horde.  It's beautiful, but it just seems out of place on the Haradrim.

Maybe it's just me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 09, 2007, 05:06:41 AM
I think it's not that clear and simple. Haradrim aren't a unified nation. There are many tribes, nations, kingdoms and some other things in a union called southrons or Haradrim. They could have very varied cultures (and should). I for instance see some nice links to snakes (aka haradrim most known symbol). The piktograms look only a bit aztec to me. Many cultures used pictograms and I'm sure something that could be called early arabian pictograms could be found.
It also depends if he's a poor infantryman or a rich mercenary. The first would have more washy colors (as dyes or dyed clothes would be rather expensive. We don't really emphasize this enough as most of Gondor's army has black clothes which would be probably pretty impossible to have. On the contrary nice green dyes weren't so expensive so Rohan is ok ;)) and scruffy look with maybe pieces of old gear strapped over the tunic. The second one would want to in a sort of peacocky way present his wealth. So I'm talking golden laces and braids, rich and ornamental belt, maybe even a gold or silver covered pieces of armor. He would also use laces with a pretty pattern to strap his leg-rags rather than just a piece of rope or leather.

So my comment would be this:
- add more snakes ;)
- a bit washier colors for a mere levy..(red still needs to be red probably :( mr.Orange shirts probably wouldn't strike people as a Haradrim)
- a bit of golden decorations

other than that I think it's a nice WIP. For my idea of a haradrim red tunic check my light cavalryman concept art.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 09, 2007, 05:13:09 AM
also, if anyone creative has any ideas about dwarf design, warfare or culture in particular, feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on March 09, 2007, 08:25:59 AM
Damien or Aryndil would probably be able to supply quotes..

Charming that you guys still remember me.

But I've got to admit, my scholarly pursuits are no longer as heavily focused on Tolkien's works as they used to be, so I've forgotten much of the content and placement of quotes in his books. I seem to remember, though, someone posting a site with which there were hundreds of quotes on armament, races, cultures and such...?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 09, 2007, 12:13:41 PM
Damien, is that you? :)

I know what you mean, I'll find the link..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 09, 2007, 02:46:58 PM
I think Ron has a poit there, it does have something of an Aztec look about it. I'll make a new shirt based on the purple one in the link Merlkir posted, or I'll try to find a model to fit Merlkir's concept (not sure there is one).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 09, 2007, 02:53:16 PM
I'll search for one too tomorrow :) too sleepy now.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 09, 2007, 07:27:21 PM
I
I think Ron has a poit there, it does have something of an Aztec look about it. I'll make a new shirt based on the purple one in the link Merlkir posted, or I'll try to find a model to fit Merlkir's concept (not sure there is one).
I think the native "mail shirt" suits it pretty closely. not the same length, but pretty close in all aspects, IMO.

EDIT: looked, the studded leather coat (same model used for the lorien knight. heh) looks to fit the design.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Damien on March 10, 2007, 02:36:39 AM
Quote
Damien, is that you?

Nope, but this is.


Going back a bit here, but:

Quote
I hadn't really thought of Rohan as being Anglo-Saxon based.


Tolkien said they were in his Letters. It's pretty well-known among Tolkien-freaks. His issue was that the Normans (a 'horse culture' of sorts) were responsible for depriving England of her myths and history. So, he gave his Anglo-Saxons horses. Sort of like a "ha, if they had been horsemen, they would have smacked up the Normans like little bitches."

Aside from the horses, everything about the Rohirrim pretty much screams 'Anglo-Saxon.' They were most assuredly not Frankish/Norman based, as Tolkien, mentioned above, strongly disliked them. Though we can say that the Elves may have had some Norman ideaology in them, the Gondorians as well - this was likely very unintentional on Tolkien's part.


Quote
I would have also placed the Elves military capabilities as being Asiatic.  The emphasis on bows, plus the superior metallurgy, sounds Asiatic ...

Asians didn't have superior metallurgy.

In any event, I don't see the Elves as having a heavy emphasis on bows. In Tolkien's works, they often went to war with sword and spear. There are lots of passages of Elves fighting in the Silmarillion and in the various History of. . . compilations. Comparatively few of them even mention bows, let alone placing any real emphasis on them. That, itself, has a very Norman ring to it (again, probably unintentional on Tolkien's part).

Quote
Many people dislike the tactics he describes in the books as not realistic and so on.

Like full charges against elephants? :)


In any event, I could probably pull quotes from the Silm and some of the History of. . . books concerning the Anglo-Saxonish ways of the Rohirrim, and the relative lack of archery among the Elves. But it would take some time, as I've been stupid-busy lately.


Quote
Heck, "Conan the Barbarian" had some of the best fight scenes in filmed entertainment, with the only notable exception being Akira Kurosawa's work (which was obviously better, because it did the same but with better choreography).  None of that rapier-duel touch-swords-a-dozen-times stuff, or the fluff spin around and flip over acrobatics - they hacked each other to bits like people who were trying to hack each other to bits. 


I would disagree for that very reason. No one in those movies showed any technique whatsoever. Even Conan, for all his vaunted training scenes, didn't have much in the way of form or technique. Kingdom of Heaven and Rob Roy, to my mind, had the best fight scenes ever filmed, as they were brutal but contained technique, rather than the 'hack-and-slash' style that is no more functional or realistic than trying to apply 19th century sport-fencing techniques to medieval weapons (as many Hollywood movies do).


Quote
I've made this shirt for the Haradrim sometime ago which is more or less along those lines.

No offense, Blade - you know I love your work. But that kind of looks like a Christmas sweater I had when I was 10. I think it's just a bit too busy.


Quote
also, if anyone creative has any ideas about dwarf design, warfare or culture in particular, feel free to PM me.

PM me your e-mail address and I can probably hook you up with some fitting Osprey images and so on, if you like.

In general, though, I'd say Dwarves are probably very much Scandinavian in style. Heavy traders, they like shields and axes, hold grudges, etc. I don't think Tolkien was ever clear on any basis for his Dwarves in real culture, aside from the concept of Dwarves being drawn from Scandinavian myth.





Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 10, 2007, 02:41:31 AM
yeah, I forgot Damien is Damien here :) must be Aryndil then.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 10, 2007, 04:05:32 AM
Guys, that shirt was a quick job made before Merlkyr's concept. Just ignore it. ;)

And Octoburn was right! :)

I still want to work on it some more, but I couldn't resist posting it as it is now. :P It's not bad, is it?

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/287/haradtunic01zn1.jpg)

I could also make a chainmail version of this, for armored units.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 10, 2007, 04:12:22 AM
uaaah! :D hot!!!!

edit: you could give the snake eyes from golden rivets maybe :)
Chainmail version should be fine too.
You may want to try some wavy snakeish gold-steel patterns for the chainmail. Something like this (a norman design, I'm actually thinking about it for the dwarves..)

http://www.krouzky.sermirskyspolekkrnov.cz/obrazky/obr-krouzky/11tka.jpg (http://www.krouzky.sermirskyspolekkrnov.cz/obrazky/obr-krouzky/11tka.jpg)

or something David Thewlis as Einon wears in the movie Dragonheart. Beautiful armor :) I'll try to find a picture..

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 10, 2007, 04:36:49 AM
This one I like.  Tribal, but not geometric.  Loud, but not busy. 

Much better than the Aztec Christmas sweater.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 10, 2007, 08:32:59 AM
uaaah! :D hot!!!!

edit: you could give the snake eyes from golden rivets maybe :)
Chainmail version should be fine too.
You may want to try some wavy snakeish gold-steel patterns for the chainmail. Something like this (a norman design, I'm actually thinking about it for the dwarves..)

http://www.krouzky.sermirskyspolekkrnov.cz/obrazky/obr-krouzky/11tka.jpg (http://www.krouzky.sermirskyspolekkrnov.cz/obrazky/obr-krouzky/11tka.jpg)

or something David Thewlis as Einon wears in the movie Dragonheart. Beautiful armor :) I'll try to find a picture..


@ DaBlade: I like it :D

yeah, I like the idea of a mail version for infantry as well. I believe we already have one that has the hauberk over the tabard (?) surcoat, whatever you want to call it, maybe this one could have the cloth over the hauberk. I like the idea merlkir had as well, though maybe if you made the hauberk a darker color of chain mail (almost black- not quite) and had the bottom edge and edges of the sleeves in gold... I think that'd look good, especially against the red surcoat.

here's a hauberk I found online that has silver and gold... I like it, though not for Haradrim exactly...

(http://www.maileofthedreamseeker.com/designs/clothing/Hauberk&Coif.jpg)
(http://www.maileofthedreamseeker.com/designs/clothing/Euro4-1ShirtBack1.jpg)

@ DaBlade: I like it :D now if only we could get the matching helmet ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 10, 2007, 08:47:14 AM
Octo, I've sent you the friggin helm texture already, check your mail man, check your messages! :P

Interesting hauberk, BTW.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 10, 2007, 08:50:04 AM
Octo, I've sent you the friggin helm texture already, check your mail man, check your messages! :P
I just PM'd you about that, I'm working on it ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 10, 2007, 08:56:22 AM
Octo, I've sent you the friggin helm texture already, check your mail man, check your messages! :P
I just PM'd you about that, I'm working on it ;)

OK.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 10, 2007, 09:04:06 AM
helm? what helm? :) I wanna see too! :) send me :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 10, 2007, 09:15:36 AM
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/287/haradtunic01zn1.jpg)

Yeah, I like that one.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on March 11, 2007, 10:09:47 AM
DaBlade, that shirt looks absolutely awesome! Really, the detail and "impurity" is simply inspiring!

As for the guy in the chain mail - he looks deformed :P

He's been training biceps far too much. See how his arms retract by default? Needs to work on triceps a bit more.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 11, 2007, 02:36:58 PM
Thank you. :) But credit should also be given to Merlkir - it's based on his concept (posted in the first page). The snake, I actually took from there. :) Infortunatelly, the stripe across the chest will probably have to be left out due to how the mapping is done, but I'll work a bit more on some details.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 11, 2007, 11:50:47 PM
DaBlade, that shirt looks absolutely awesome! Really, the detail and "impurity" is simply inspiring!

As for the guy in the chain mail - he looks deformed :P

He's been training biceps far too much. See how his arms retract by default? Needs to work on triceps a bit more.
I agree that he looks deformed... but my thought was that his head looks entirely too large, like an alien or something strange like that. say, Orlando Bloom.

anywho, pretty new sword, with more to come (including one for easterlings...)...

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7678/newswordwr9.th.jpg) (http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newswordwr9.jpg)

EDIT:
promised (possible) Easterling sabre...

(http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/2465/easterlingsabreae1.th.jpg) (http://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=easterlingsabreae1.jpg)

based on an ottoman yataghan... not completely happy with the pommel mapping, but I can fix that and it looks fine otherwise, IMO.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 12, 2007, 02:59:56 PM
lovin' it ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 12, 2007, 04:51:58 PM
Yeah, they look good. Thats an odd hilt on number 2. 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 12, 2007, 06:41:38 PM
yeah, I thought so too. unique. it's based on this sword:

(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1425/ottomanyataghan101go0kg3.th.png) (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ottomanyataghan101go0kg3.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 12, 2007, 10:36:05 PM
Saying anything about a yatagan being odd-looking is like saying a platypus is a funny-looking duck.

Still, if you need that semi-Asiatic curved blade look, they're a great place to start looking.  Needs good follow-up, though.  If you're going to use them, all the other weapons for the group need to have the same type of lines, to make them "fit" (i.e. look like the same culture produced both).

I do like that blade ... it's a fine-looking weapon, and one any warrior would be proud to carry.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Damien on March 12, 2007, 11:23:25 PM
Quote
Needs good follow-up, though.  If you're going to use them, all the other weapons for the group need to have the same type of lines, to make them "fit" (i.e. look like the same culture produced both).

I disagree. And there's nothing, historically, that supports such a need. The yatagahn was used by cultures that also had axes similar to ones you might find in the West, straight-bladed swords and daggers, and knives and swords with more basic curves (as opposed to the more serpentine curves of the yatagahn). Making one weapon in a particular way doesn't mean that culture makes -all- of their weapons in that way. Different blades for different jobs, as they say.

An all-too-common failing of cinematic and fantasy cultures is that desire to make everything about them 'match' - which is rather nonsensical since no culture in the world's history has ever concerned itself with that. Most people are rather surprised to know, for instance, that Syrians during the Crusades were just as likely to use a very Western-looking cruciform sword as they were to use any kind of saber or 'scimitar.'

I'd say it's far more important for weapons and accoutrements of war to match the culture's needs, and the individual warrior's purpose. Generally, this would mean a good variety of styles, rather than a handful of similar ones.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 12, 2007, 11:55:00 PM
Having the same type of lines about them would not necessarily mean making them "match" in the comic-book sense.  For example, the Ottoman Turks, who produced the yatagan, also used a number of hand axes.  However, their hand axes tended to have sweeping curves on the blades, and the same type of decoration as that yatagan.  It was very easy to see that the same culture and thought patterns produced both.  The straight-blade swords and conventionally-curved sabers also had the same types of hilts, guards (or sometimes lack thereof), and decorations.  They "looked" Turkish.  Even someone with minimal background as a historian could pick them out as being Turkish.

In contrast, the yatagan would look very out of place in a group of swords with obviously northern European guards and pommels.  The differences would make it quite unlikely that the same people produced both.  That would be the kind of mistake that would even cause people with no knowledge of history or weapons to notice that something seemed out of place.

The comic book mistake is to make every weapon unreasonably similar - for example, giving the same group the yatagan and the kukri, as if every blade in their culture had exactly the same curve to it.  Don't do that.  That's not what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Damien on March 13, 2007, 12:23:53 AM

I get what you're saying now, but I'd still say it's not actually true, in total at least. It's a good 'rule of thumb' - but should not be applied to liberally. You mention the Ottoman Turks, but they also produced very 'Western' looking axes, and swords that look nothing like the yatagahn (the yatagahn has a -very- distinctive blade AND hilt profile that is not copied on virtually any other type of sword, including other Turkish/Turkic ones). Indeed, the Ottoman Turks did have swords that most people would look at and think of as probably English or French.

That's all I'm saying -- drastically different styles were common within one culture. Especially 'fringe' cultures that bordered cultures radically different from their own. More closed-off cultures (like the Japanese) will sometimes have 'unity of form' -- but I don't see that as much relevant to Middle-earth, where there is a lot of interaction between cultures, even the 'far off' ones like the Haradhrim and Easterlings. Rhun and Far Harad, however, might have some unity of form in their accoutrements, presuming they're more closed off (less likely for Far Harad since they would be in contact with the Corsairs, who would have distant Numenorean-blood colouring their designs, as well as consistent contact with Gondor and other Evil Men).

Whoof. . complicated.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 13, 2007, 12:34:18 AM
I'm always facing a similar problem. Almost all the cultures in TLD use some equipment that in the mesh state looks very similar. So it's only a matter of texture and ornaments and decoration to differ them so they look the proper culture. Fortunately DaBlade is very good at that :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 13, 2007, 12:50:28 AM
Ironically, since you mention it, the Japanese had a lot more variations in their equipment than is commonly believed in the West.  The reason these variations go unnoticed is because of particular decorative points that give the weapons their distinctive "Japanese" look.  (If you put a yatagan into a Japanese-style hilt and scabbard, most people would swear it was a Japanese sword.)  Therefore, very real differences in length and blade curve go completely unnoticed by all but true experts on the weapons.  Even straight-blade weapons of obvious Chinese design found their way into Japan, but the Japanese immediately wrapped and carried them in ways that would pass for Japanese ... so much so that a casual observer might not even realize what they were seeing.

I mentioned the Turks, because they were the source of the pictured yatagan.  The Turks certainly had some weapons that, if seen in isolation, would be hard to identify.  However, they had very few that, when seen in a group with other Turkish weapons, would appear to be extremely foreign.  Nobody would confuse a Turkish weapon, for example, for being Japanese.

That's just a general point for concept art.  Make sure that the weapons of a particular group have enough in common that nobody will read them as obviously out of place.  (Same with armor ... armors should have enough design elements in common to at least look like the same people might have built all of them.)  At least like the same people might have owned them for a while, even if the blade itself was imported.  Similar wrappings, or similar color schemes - anything can be enough to connect them to the rest of the group.

I just see potential for a mistake here... and one that can be easily avoided if everybody will pay attention.  It can usually be fixed with a few slight texture changes and such, if everyone will be aware of it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: AlxCruel on March 13, 2007, 03:00:25 AM
Sorry :).

I make a eastern battle horse with a new modell:
(http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/6501/92458022ft7.jpg)

(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5989/40159811ks5.jpg)


If somebody interested, I can send it:).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Damien on March 13, 2007, 03:32:38 AM
Quote
Ironically, since you mention it, the Japanese had a lot more variations in their equipment than is commonly believed in the West. 


Not really. That's more of a division of time period. Like the difference between a Bronze Age Celtic sword and a 15th century Welsh sword. Sure, they're drastically different from one another, but that's because they're from wildly different historical periods. The Japanese originally used accoutrements that would pass easily for Chinese, because they were originally Chinese items. Early Japanese swords, for instance, were straight - not the curved affairs that most associate with Japan. But even before the Sengoku period, the Japanese had adopted rather uniform ways of doing things. This can be attributed both to the relative small size of Japan, and to the (often self-imposed) isolation of the culture. They may have varied blade curvature by a minute amount, and adopted different ways of carrying their weapons (katana vs. tachi, for instance), but their weapons were, for lack of a better word, distinct. As was much of their armour (but that can sometimes be mistaken for Chinese armour, as the patterns didn't change overmuch in certain aspects).

Quote
(If you put a yatagan into a Japanese-style hilt and scabbard, most people would swear it was a Japanese sword.) 


No learned people, however. Stupid people will think stupid things, yes. I can put a stainless steel blade four inches across along its entire length into a Turkish-style hilt and convince half of the people on the Internet that it's a historical piece.


Quote
I mentioned the Turks, because they were the source of the pictured yatagan.  The Turks certainly had some weapons that, if seen in isolation, would be hard to identify.  However, they had very few that, when seen in a group with other Turkish weapons, would appear to be extremely foreign.  Nobody would confuse a Turkish weapon, for example, for being Japanese.

Certainly not. But that's because the Japanese, not the Turks, had very distinctive items that are recognizable to most people. Again, that's why I brought up Japan - they are a special case, due to isolation, and circumstance. Your point falls apart if you remove the word 'Japanese' and replace it with 'German' or 'French.' Even a learned person could mistake many Middle Eastern weapons for Western ones. While it may not look entirely out of place, that does not mean it looks similar either. The reason, after all, such a weapon might not look entirely foreign is because many weapons throughout Europe and the Middle East looked similar to one another, following similar design patterns. A cruciform, straight-bladed Turkish sword looks entirely different from a Turkish 'traditional' saber. But they are, in fact, from the same culture, despite looking absolutely nothing alike and sharing no common features whatsoever.

Indeed, to an unlearned person, any sword not 'curved' would stand out as distinctly 'not Eastern.' Nearly no one would mistake a Turkish sword for a Japanese sword. But many might mistake a Turkish sword for a Russian sword, or a German sword for a French sword, etc etc. Many wouldn't even see that sword as being -possible- for Turks. That's the point I'm making -- why make the distinction of 'unity' in equipment in a game, when it didn't exist in actuality anyway. It's a false point, and there's really no reason for it except for a few people that might say 'oh, that sword doesn't look Rohirric to me.' I'd say not to worry about a few people that would not want Rohirric swords to look like anything except Viking swords, for instance. Hey, even Viking swords didn't always carry the 'traditional' look - many can be mistaken for 11th century Italian, English, or French swords. After all, almost the entirety of Western Europe used straight guards and brazil-nut pommels in some capacity.

Quote
At least like the same people might have owned them for a while, even if the blade itself was imported.  Similar wrappings, or similar color schemes - anything can be enough to connect them to the rest of the group.

But this, again, implies a commonality not actually supported by evidence. Even something as simple as grip wrappings (and especially something like colour) would vary wildly even within a single province, let alone within an entire culture. All English Knights didn't use a cross-wrapped, oxblood grip, for instance. All Turks did not use the conventional short turned guard and forward oblong pommel.

Weapons, by their very apperance and taken as a group, need look nothing alike. They have to be taken -in context-. Is this something that this culture would make? If the answer is yes, it fits - even if it looks nothing like the other weapons. A seax looks nothing like an early Scandinavian sword -- but one can easily see both being used by the Rohirrim. The appropriate weapons should be defined by their utility to the culture and 'rightness' with the culture, rather than by whether or not they 'look' like they fit. If we go by that, there will be very little variation at all, which is unrealistic and somewhat boring.


Quote
I'm always facing a similar problem. Almost all the cultures in TLD use some equipment that in the mesh state looks very similar. So it's only a matter of texture and ornaments and decoration to differ them so they look the proper culture. Fortunately DaBlade is very good at that


I don't think it's much of a problem, Merlkir. You've done an excellent job thus far with giving a unique look to the various troops, without making them wildly different from one another to the point where you couldn't swap out one for another. I think that's fine - and in keeping with Tolkien. I mean, in the text Gondorians, Elves, and Rohirrim all primarily wear mail and carry (nondescript in the text) swords and spears. To my mind, it's most important to make the 'baddies' (except for the Corsairs) somewhat distinct in style from the 'good guys.'  Tolkien's 'West' was clearly inspired by real world Western cultures, and so would all look fairly similar to one another in terms of gear. I already think the Elves have gotten far away from the source-text for the sake of looking 'distinct'. . lots of gaudy colouring, scale armour and the like. I'd like to see more Elven troops in mail. At least AW kept out the nagamaki-wannabe swords from the movies. God those were awful (wicked cool looking, but awful nonetheless).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 13, 2007, 04:44:23 AM
I don't think we said anything too different... just used very different words to get there.  Constructed "something along the same lines" or "looking somewhat like they could be part of the same culture" - one is a statement of artistic form, and the other a statement of history, but on a sword they roughly come out the same.  There should be some at least semi-common elements within a given culture.  What those elements might be is somewhat up to poetic license.


I said Japan had more variation than is commonly believed ... funny you should mention the nagimaki in reference to the elves in the movies.  If that's not a HUGE variation in sword making, I don't know what is.  It actually seems unlikely that the same culture could produce the tachi and the nagimaki ... all of the thinking behind one is reverse of the other.  The hilt wrappings are about the only indicator that they have anything in common at all.  Or the tetsubo or masaraki - exactly the opposite of what most people think of when you say "Asian" weapons.  Japanese weapon variation was marked by extremes - certain items seemed to have come from a different planet than others.  That's not even counting the "rare" pieces, like an Edo-period straight-blade double-edge longsword (that I can't find a picture of right at the moment, but it's in some museum).  Most modern "martial arts" just take the ones they like, and forget that the others ever existed... leaving the modern belief that everybody in Japan carried their little Japanese swords like good samurai.  Not really the way it looked.  Reality was that they had about as much variation as other places, even if the ratios of certain types or classes were a little different.

That's been a big deal over on Onin-no-Ran ... trying to get away from the Hollywood Ninja Movie world where everybody carried the same swords, and get more of the historical but no longer popular weapons back into circulation.  It's been a big research problem - and why the idea that Japan had uniformity of weapons somewhat got my attention.

--------------------------

Anyway, yes, Merlkir, the work in the last public release of TLD looked pretty good in this regard.  I just wanted to draw attention to it, when I saw a Turkish yatagan ... it's just going to be a balancing act to make one of those look normal anywhere.  Good luck.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 13, 2007, 05:04:52 AM
I'd like to see more Elven troops in mail.

I think you will in the next release :) The mailled knights I've drawn for Rivendell are in and look very cool (great Stefano's model and Blade's excellent texture.).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 13, 2007, 11:42:16 AM
AlxCruel, I think the texture looks nice (the parts you added) but the model needs to be tweaked a bit. The horse's head looks way too big (could be the perspective, maybe). It would also be nice to have a different head armor, but the body armor looks good. ;)

*****************************

Here's an update on the Haradrim shirt:

(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9112/haradtunic02jm2.jpg)

It's starting to look better, huh? :) I'll make the chainmail version next.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 13, 2007, 12:52:48 PM
coolio :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 13, 2007, 05:18:13 PM
Yeah, looking good.  On the concept art there are some kind of buttons or studs or fabric dot pattern on the surcoat.  Maybe we could try one with something like those on it. Im not sure how it would look on that model though.  Looking real good though.

@Alxcruel: Thats a nice variation but I still prefer the original. Maybe you could do something else with it?  Maybe add some modelled face plates to the original.  Ive seen a model like that somewhere...

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 13, 2007, 06:10:02 PM
Yeah, looking good.  On the concept art there are some kind of buttons or studs or fabric dot pattern on the surcoat.  Maybe we could try one with something like those on it. Im not sure how it would look on that model though.  Looking real good though.

Yeah, I also like how it looks on the concept, but it would be very time consuming (at least for me) to put something like that on the texture. That's why I used one of the Photoshop built in patterns instead. Maybe I'll try it at a latter stage if I find a matching patterned texture while googling for stuff (or maybe Merlkir will). But it's better to have something ready that doesn't look bad, than nothing yet because you want it to be perfect, heh?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 13, 2007, 06:11:57 PM

But it's better to have something ready that doesn't look bad, than nothing yet because you want it to be perfect, heh?

Now there's a philosophy, if I ever heard one.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 13, 2007, 06:57:37 PM
Yup.  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 14, 2007, 04:53:25 AM
adding the rivets shouldn't be that hard. I can try that I guess :) Making one and copying it many times ;) and moving around and moving and moving...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 15, 2007, 02:26:53 AM

But it's better to have something ready that doesn't look bad, than nothing yet because you want it to be perfect, heh?

Now there's a philosophy, if I ever heard one.


Hehe.

**************

Merlkir, I can send you the texture if you want to work on it.

**************

EDIT: done!

(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/79/haradtunic03fv2.jpg)

I think the Haradrim could use a new snake logo. Merlkir, do you wanna do it? Or I can google for something...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 15, 2007, 05:51:01 AM
:) nicely done.

I'll give the logo a shot.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 15, 2007, 10:30:59 AM
Here's a chainmail version:

(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9721/haradchainmail01xn3.jpg)(http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/6416/haradchainmail02fq7.jpg)

I changed the belt on the second picture.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 15, 2007, 11:04:06 AM
the chainmail looks great!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 15, 2007, 01:38:27 PM
I've been looking for some Haradrim and found the gondor feudal troops as miniatures :) Just for comparsion:

warrior of Pinath Gelin
(http://uk.games-workshop.com/gondor/fiefdoms/images/pinnath-gelin-big.jpg)
Blackroot Vale archer
(http://uk.games-workshop.com/gondor/fiefdoms/images/bowman-big.jpg)
Pinath Gelin archer
(http://uk.games-workshop.com/gondor/fiefdoms/images/ranger-big.jpg)
Lamedon clansman
(http://uk.games-workshop.com/gondor/fiefdoms/images/axeman-big.jpg)
Angbor(at first I liked it, but on a second thought it looks a bit too much like Theoden)
(http://uk.games-workshop.com/gondor/fiefdoms/images/angbor-big.jpg)

and these we do not have, but I kinda like the designs!

Warrior of Ringlo vale
(http://uk.games-workshop.com/gondor/fiefdoms/images/ringlo-vale-big.jpg)
Warden of Pelagir
(http://uk.games-workshop.com/gondor/fiefdoms/images/pelargir-big.jpg)
Corinir of Pelagir
(http://uk.games-workshop.com/gondor/fiefdoms/images/corinir-big.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 15, 2007, 01:40:22 PM
heh, I wasn't far off with the Theoden ripoff. It seems they created most of those by combining parts of different rohan and gondor troops.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 15, 2007, 02:11:56 PM
Found this for the Haradrim. It was some kind of a tolkien encyklopedia. I don't think they would mind if we used it :)

(http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/5/52/WAR-ICONS_Harad.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 15, 2007, 02:23:18 PM

But it's better to have something ready that doesn't look bad, than nothing yet because you want it to be perfect, heh?

Now there's a philosophy, if I ever heard one.


Hehe.

**************

Merlkir, I can send you the texture if you want to work on it.

**************

EDIT: done!


(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/79/haradtunic03fv2.jpg)

I think the Haradrim could use a new snake logo. Merlkir, do you wanna do it? Or I can google for something...



@Dablade. Looks really nice, congrats! 

@Merlkir. Yeah, I got the idea of the feudals from those miniatures.  The harad logo looks good but I would just use the snake I think.  Might look good on a shield.


Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 15, 2007, 06:30:42 PM
Thanks guys, I like it too. :)

Yep, very nice looking logo! Maybe we can keep the red circle along with that golden border.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 16, 2007, 03:04:19 AM
The maille in that "chainmaille version" looks kind of shiny.  I don't know if it was the lighting for this pic, or if it does that all the time.  It looks like stainless steel or aluminum or something.

I hate to be picky, but since we're doing concept art....
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 16, 2007, 03:39:48 AM
The maille in that "chainmaille version" looks kind of shiny.  I don't know if it was the lighting for this pic, or if it does that all the time.  It looks like stainless steel or aluminum or something.

I hate to be picky, but since we're doing concept art....


I depends on the light. As you can see, the parts which are under shadow don't shine so much. I can give the mail less "shine" overall, if needed, but I can tell you the neck part has "default shine" as in vanilla.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 16, 2007, 03:52:50 AM
The maille in that "chainmaille version" looks kind of shiny.  I don't know if it was the lighting for this pic, or if it does that all the time.  It looks like stainless steel or aluminum or something.

I hate to be picky, but since we're doing concept art....


I depends on the light. As you can see, the parts which are under shadow don't shine so much. I can give the mail less "shine" overall, if needed, but I can tell you the neck part has "default shine" as in vanilla.

I just mean the silver color.  Not the actual reflective properties.  Actual reflective characteristics could make it worse, but that's not really the issue.

Unless polished (like sword blades), metal usually looks kind of gray.  Since I doubt anyone would polish or silver-plate every ring of a coat of maille...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 16, 2007, 04:03:40 AM
it really depends on the light source. I like on of those mail shaders Scion made (the first not so shiny version...) I think I've posted that in suggestions. We could use that.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 18, 2007, 10:52:50 PM
I don't know why, but I always liked this illustration from the movie concept art. I know Elves are pretty much fleshed out alreadyin their general look, but I still like this alot.

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9405/elvenwarrioroe4.th.jpg) (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elvenwarrioroe4.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 18, 2007, 11:46:15 PM
I like it too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 19, 2007, 03:19:54 AM
the movie's concept art is great. Except some wild designs they have beautiful colors. I love Erkebrand for example..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 21, 2007, 12:23:48 PM
Ha. I promised you guys a big update and nothing is happening. That's because I'm stupid and I forgot to scan all the concepts :) hm. Wait some more and there will be even more concepts. Good deal, nah?

also I'm painting some other art for the mod, but I think we're not showing it here. Wait until it gets to the game :) looking good so far.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on March 23, 2007, 05:40:03 PM
Here are some pictures that I think are great for concept art. And I know that this is from  R:TW. ::)

Sindar Archer
(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/5039/eldarsilvanwoodsmanmk4.jpg)

This is what I have always thought the haradrim looked like.
(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2465/haradredserpentsk8.jpg)

Heres one that I think would be great! Its pretty historical too.
(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/6263/gondorwingedguardbu5.jpg)

Its all from middle-earth total war. Which can be found here http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=95&order=desc (http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=95&order=desc)

They have beautiful units.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 24, 2007, 01:35:50 AM
I've already posted this here ;) some of them are good, some not..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boy_suicide on March 24, 2007, 02:09:23 AM
Personally, I think Fourth Age: Total War stays more true to Tolkein-ic appearances more than Middle Earth: Total War. Just me though
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 24, 2007, 02:17:39 AM
I've posted FA's concepts too. We're mostly staying with our own though :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 24, 2007, 07:03:39 AM
Yeah, FATW doesnt do full plate and such while iirc ME:TW is a movie mod.  They couldnt be more opposite, well, except for the whole tolkien thing. :lol:  Maybe Im confusing METW with another TW mod...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on March 24, 2007, 10:45:25 AM
I think you are confusing it with LOTR:TW. Wlesman(the creator) prefers the movie over the books. Too bad though, I think he is one of the best moddlers I have ever seen.

Edit: Link for the lazy ones http://www.lotrtw.com/ (http://www.lotrtw.com/)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boy_suicide on March 24, 2007, 11:02:29 AM
Yep, you nailed it, I thought of one mod as another  ???
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 26, 2007, 07:41:41 AM
ok, here's the dwarven preview I promised :) it's still far from complete, it's WIP, some things may stay, some may go. More will come and I will add it later.

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/noveTLD/DwarvenMiner.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/noveTLD/DwarvenSergeant2.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/noveTLD/DwarvenShields.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/noveTLD/DwarvenWarriors.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/noveTLD/TwoTypes.jpg)

and a bonus. :) just a thought I've put together:

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/noveTLD/SnowbourneRiders.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 26, 2007, 07:54:48 AM
damn. those look great :D

particularly like the swords; they look... familiar. ;)

the shields and helms look nice as well.
and the armors.
well, just a good job overall :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 26, 2007, 08:07:03 AM
yes, I drew the swords before I asked you to model them ;) these are my custom ones though, they're just similar :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on March 26, 2007, 08:29:08 AM
Those look awesome Merlkir, great job!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 26, 2007, 09:20:51 AM
Super cool looking! Great work.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 26, 2007, 10:23:46 PM
yes, I drew the swords before I asked you to model them ;) these are my custom ones though, they're just similar :)
yeah, I really like the designs on the fourth sketch. very nice. especailly since you once claimed you weren't a weapon designer ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 27, 2007, 01:50:26 AM
heh, exactly, I was trying if I can do that too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Nahkis on March 27, 2007, 06:19:32 AM
Lookin' awesome! Is there going to be dwarves in the next version? (I've been away for a bit so I don't know.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 27, 2007, 07:49:44 AM
Lookin' awesome! Is there going to be dwarves in the next version? (I've been away for a bit so I don't know.)

sadly no. Except the concept art only those wonderful swords have been made by Octoburn. That's all.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 27, 2007, 01:33:44 PM
yeah... hopefully Armagan and Co. can make the scalable skeleton work correctly... after that, shouldn't be any more than making armor textures, shields, helmets, some axes and beards (which I've been experimenting with) wow, that looks like alot more work than it did when I was just thinking it... lol.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on March 27, 2007, 03:54:19 PM
Why think-you in terms of an addon having to be imeddiately fully functionable?

Were oliphants not wanted? And I helped put them in game. Sure, they don't do a thing, but it's till nice to have them in, rather than wait for another two years till it's possible to have fully functionable ones, nicht wahr?

So, make a dwarf or a few of them, set them somewhere credible, enable conversation with them and let the player enjoy the aesthetic pleasure of an even fuller Middle Earth setting, I say. And when they can be made to walk and fight, then enable that as well...Everyone wins.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 27, 2007, 04:45:33 PM
And meanwhile, we can all whine loudly for the next version of M&B to support custom skeletons!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on March 27, 2007, 05:11:50 PM
Even if he makes scalable skeletons it will look more like a midget or child than a dwarf.  Hopefully cusom skeletons will be possible at some point.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 27, 2007, 05:34:49 PM
Yeah, I did say "custom" skeletons ... not scalable.  Custom like allowing for four-legged critters, dwarves, the elephants that have been causing such difficulty, big snakes or whatever.  Scalable wouldn't really help much.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 27, 2007, 06:42:44 PM
Why think-you in terms of an addon having to be imeddiately fully functionable?

Were oliphants not wanted? And I helped put them in game. Sure, they don't do a thing, but it's till nice to have them in, rather than wait for another two years till it's possible to have fully functionable ones, nicht wahr?

So, make a dwarf or a few of them, set them somewhere credible, enable conversation with them and let the player enjoy the aesthetic pleasure of an even fuller Middle Earth setting, I say. And when they can be made to walk and fight, then enable that as well...Everyone wins.
I'm not oposed to this, personally. the only fallback is: where exactly is "credible?" the current map falls about 100 miles (from my esti mation) from the closest Dwarven settlement (Erebor). a camp somewhere, but where? I doubt the Elves of Mirkwood would allow an encampment of Dwarves. not arguing, just bringing up a valid question :D

hell, I'd love to be able to walk into a Dwarf smithy and earn a Dwarf crafted sword or axe (armor seems out of the question, since I'm not a hobbit, so it wouldn't fit me.) by doing a quest for him. and I'd be glad to lend my hand to a "scene prop" Dwarf to use...

why wouldn't a scaled skeleton work? you can make him seems broader and thicker with the model, no?

EDIT: maybe in the Rivendell camp or somewhere near it? since there were dwarves at the Council of Elrond... maybe some hung around a while ;)

just brainstorming "out loud"...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 27, 2007, 07:01:30 PM
A truly "scale" skeleton would come out making dwarves look like preschoolers.  Unless the skeleton can be customized to a shorter model with wider shoulders, it would never make a dwarf.

Scalable skeletons might be good for making some human/humanoids slightly larger or smaller than others, but not as far off as the dwarf.

Tragically, M&B won't do either one right now.  Not effectively.  Not without doing some very strange things to the game.  This has been driving all the modders crazy.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 28, 2007, 01:17:52 AM
Phew :) we have wargs that move like horses and even neigh! :) we could have dwarves that look like downscaled humans.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 28, 2007, 02:18:36 AM
Three lefts might make a right, but two mistakes do not. ::)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 28, 2007, 04:02:01 AM
really funny.
We do what we can, we work with what we have. If nothing, the dwarves will be prepared for the time when the animation and skeleton support comes.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 28, 2007, 04:04:08 AM
We do what we can, we work with what we have.

Don't we all.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 28, 2007, 05:12:42 AM
I'm just saving this picture here, I want to use it as a base for some dwarven helmets:

(http://gallery.photo.net/photo/217120-lg.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 28, 2007, 05:18:21 AM
Don't let me stop you ... I was just responding to why the dwarves can't be playable just yet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 28, 2007, 08:49:20 AM
Well, they weren't meant to be playable in the first concept. But as many people ask for playable elves, dwarves as npcs probably wouldn't satisfy them either..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on March 28, 2007, 12:14:44 PM
Why think-you in terms of an addon having to be imeddiately fully functionable?

Were oliphants not wanted? And I helped put them in game. Sure, they don't do a thing, but it's till nice to have them in, rather than wait for another two years till it's possible to have fully functionable ones, nicht wahr?

So, make a dwarf or a few of them, set them somewhere credible, enable conversation with them and let the player enjoy the aesthetic pleasure of an even fuller Middle Earth setting, I say. And when they can be made to walk and fight, then enable that as well...Everyone wins.
I'm not oposed to this, personally. the only fallback is: where exactly is "credible?" the current map falls about 100 miles (from my esti mation) from the closest Dwarven settlement (Erebor). a camp somewhere, but where? I doubt the Elves of Mirkwood would allow an encampment of Dwarves. not arguing, just bringing up a valid question :D

hell, I'd love to be able to walk into a Dwarf smithy and earn a Dwarf crafted sword or axe (armor seems out of the question, since I'm not a hobbit, so it wouldn't fit me.) by doing a quest for him. and I'd be glad to lend my hand to a "scene prop" Dwarf to use...

why wouldn't a scaled skeleton work? you can make him seems broader and thicker with the model, no?

EDIT: maybe in the Rivendell camp or somewhere near it? since there were dwarves at the Council of Elrond... maybe some hung around a while ;)

just brainstorming "out loud"...

I suggested at some point that after you took out dol goldur and moria that some dwarves would move into moria but people disliked the idea.

Since they have extended the map before, there is no reason it can't be extended further east, though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 28, 2007, 12:40:06 PM
Would those people be Aryndil? :D I personally can't remember that discussion and I find that as a nice idea. Do you remember why they thought it was bad?
Dwarves in the Rivendell camp are also an acceptable option I think..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merentha on March 28, 2007, 08:59:34 PM
I don't recall there being a significant Dwarven presence in Rivendell.  The movie had several, certainly, but the books only say:
Quote
He then pointed out and named those whom Frodo had not met before.  There was a younger dwarf at Gloin's side: his son Gimli.  Beside Glorfindel there were several other counsellors of Elrond's household...
Not here, nor anywhere that I saw in my quick perusal, are other dwarves mentioned.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 29, 2007, 04:30:27 AM
I forgot to post this (if it's not visible, I'll repost from a different location). A bit of WIP for the Snowbourne..

(http://conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=95157&stc=1&d=1171717593)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 29, 2007, 04:37:13 AM
I forgot to post this (if it's not visible, I'll repost from a different location). A bit of WIP for the Snowbourne..

Too busy.  Too many stripes, and too many horses ... makes it look comical.

----------------
Edit:
The earlier one - planned as a base for some dwarven helmets:

I like it, but the decorative elements there look more in line with what has already been done for the elves.  The blue with gold trim is just too close to the current Elven armors.  It needs a redecoration before it can be a dwarf helm... possibly in black, with trim that looks more like ironwork than gold.  (Just my first impression.)

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 29, 2007, 07:41:56 AM

Too busy.  Too many stripes, and too many horses ... makes it look comical.


I don't agree. I just wanted to try a more detailed one. There are historical helmets that are far more decorated. We actually have helmets similar to this one in the game, that was one of the reasons I haven't posted that one..

Edit:
The earlier one - planned as a base for some dwarven helmets:

I like it, but the decorative elements there look more in line with what has already been done for the elves.  The blue with gold trim is just too close to the current Elven armors.  It needs a redecoration before it can be a dwarf helm... possibly in black, with trim that looks more like ironwork than gold.  (Just my first impression.)


 ::) that's why I said I'll use it as a base. I see almost no similar designs to those we have for the elves. Maybe the eyebrows, but those were very common on viking/norman/anglo-saxon helmets. The helmet looks black on my monitor, but it may be blue, I don't know. It's more similar to some rohan helms though. That's again why I said it's a base. I'll just use some parts of it, designs that I will further adjust to fit the dwarves.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on March 29, 2007, 08:42:32 AM
Would those people be Aryndil? :D I personally can't remember that discussion and I find that as a nice idea. Do you remember why they thought it was bad?
Dwarves in the Rivendell camp are also an acceptable option I think..

It went something like "You're stupid lol".  I don't remember who, but that was the general consensus.  If not that then I'm sure somethign else can be figured out.

The helmet looks great, like something a saxon king would wear.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 29, 2007, 08:57:27 AM
the decorations are actually a close influence from the movie's royal guard while the shape is heavily roman cavalryman inspired.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 29, 2007, 06:43:03 PM
I actually have a model similar to that one (sans horse taii) that was one of the professor's old models. I screwed up the normals when i was working on the rest of the models, so I never sent it. maybe if you want, I could fix it and send you a texture map, and we could use it as a reward/Royal guard type helm?

Ron, Merlkir said we could base some dwarven helmets on it, not that we'd use it as is. and I believe the blue is caused by the fact that metal reflects light, and the light source above the helmet happens to be the sky; which in turn happens to be blue.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 30, 2007, 02:59:42 AM
yeah, the sky theory is probably right :)
I've drawn some more dwarven warrior masked helmets, I'll scan them as soon as I get home..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 30, 2007, 03:15:25 AM
Looks like a gun-blue finish to me.  Makes it look almost black in low light, but very obviously blue in bright light.  A good idea for reproduction helmets, actually - prevents rust, while still making them look metallic, doesn't chip like paint, and cheap to do or to repair.  Also a good trick for knife blades, if you're making knives and don't need or want them to look overly polished. 

Still, the blue and gold together just doesn't seem to say "Dwarven smiths" to me.  Somehow I would expect them to make trim that was more functional and less decorative - something in iron, perhaps, instead of gold.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 30, 2007, 04:52:30 AM
***sigh


who said anything about blue and gold for dwarves? I know I didn't


***sigh.

and it's probably not even gold, more like brass or bronze...Which was easy to cast and therefore used as a decorative part.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 30, 2007, 05:20:34 AM
I just mean the color, not necessarily the metal.

The statement earlier was an intent to base dwarven helmets off of the one in the picture.  I said I like the design, but the colors need a little adjustment (to suggest a more underground origin, instead of the bright flashy look) ... if you already planned to adjust the colors, then my point was moot.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merentha on March 30, 2007, 08:46:06 AM
Would those people be Aryndil? :D I personally can't remember that discussion and I find that as a nice idea. Do you remember why they thought it was bad?
Dwarves in the Rivendell camp are also an acceptable option I think..
It went something like "You're stupid lol".  I don't remember who, but that was the general consensus.  If not that then I'm sure somethign else can be figured out.
Or it went "There was not a Dwarven contingent at Rivendell, and if there was, they certainly would have gone back to the Lonely Mountain, since it was attacked during the War as well."

In short, I don't think a dwarven presence should be in the game with the scale of the map we have presently.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 30, 2007, 09:34:21 AM
ok. It may be so. But hey...the maps is not likely to be any bigger :( I wonder if we can do something about it..I would love to visit Dale or the lonely mountain...
Maybe split the map into two? and travel between them with a dialog?

edit: also we should probably continue this in the suggestions, or make a whole new dwarves thread.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on March 30, 2007, 10:01:05 AM
Would those people be Aryndil? :D I personally can't remember that discussion and I find that as a nice idea. Do you remember why they thought it was bad?
Dwarves in the Rivendell camp are also an acceptable option I think..
It went something like "You're stupid lol".  I don't remember who, but that was the general consensus.  If not that then I'm sure somethign else can be figured out.
Or it went "There was not a Dwarven contingent at Rivendell, and if there was, they certainly would have gone back to the Lonely Mountain, since it was attacked during the War as well."

In short, I don't think a dwarven presence should be in the game with the scale of the map we have presently.

As I said.

I don't think all the dwarves would move there, but it would be stupid of them not to send a small contingent to mine and smith there from the if the way to it were clear.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 30, 2007, 12:32:12 PM
Yeah, its a good painting. Looks a bit like a fancier version of the ones we have.  I liked that snowbourne rider sitting on the ground from earlier. For some reason that one reminds me of Ralph Bakshi artwork.

As for dwarves, I always though of expanding the map east and north. Then you could introduce dwarves and more easterling stuff. It could also be a post war mission to pacify the easterilng tribes as iirc Eomer and Aragorn go do that after the war.  I dont know if Ill ever do that, it was just an idea I had quite a ways back.  Going all the way to the Iron Hills would be a bit of a stretch with the current scale though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 30, 2007, 01:16:19 PM
As for dwarves, I always though of expanding the map east and north. Then you could introduce dwarves and more easterling stuff. It could also be a post war mission to pacify the easterilng tribes as iirc Eomer and Aragorn go do that after the war.  I dont know if Ill ever do that, it was just an idea I had quite a ways back.  Going all the way to the Iron Hills would be a bit of a stretch with the current scale though.

the eastern campaign would be awesome, great idea :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on March 30, 2007, 04:58:52 PM
The map sizes don't affect load times as fujiwara believed at one point. The map for AoA is bigger than the TLD map and it has no problem loading.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on March 30, 2007, 06:30:38 PM
Would those people be Aryndil? :D I personally can't remember that discussion and I find that as a nice idea. Do you remember why they thought it was bad?
Dwarves in the Rivendell camp are also an acceptable option I think..
It went something like "You're stupid lol".  I don't remember who, but that was the general consensus.  If not that then I'm sure somethign else can be figured out.
Or it went "There was not a Dwarven contingent at Rivendell, and if there was, they certainly would have gone back to the Lonely Mountain, since it was attacked during the War as well."

In short, I don't think a dwarven presence should be in the game with the scale of the map we have presently.
by this same logic, we could say "There was not a rivendell contengent near Lorien, and if there was, they certainly would have gone back to Rivendell, since it was attacked during the War as well."

not to be argumentative. I just think some small creative liberties can be taken, if it makes TLD a better game.  I don't think the map would be much of a problem. I've personally made a map that went as far west as the Grey Havens, as far East/North as Erebor and as far south as Minas Tirith... loads fine.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 30, 2007, 06:31:52 PM
I dont know what fujiwara discovered but it used to be the case that large maps were trouble. The first map for TLD was unbounded by rivers and the in-game stuttering was incredible. Once I bounded it with artificial rivers, the problem vanished. It might have been something to do with the AI search patterns, if they even had any.  Maybe they are done a different way now.

Also, to stetch a map all the way to the Iron Hills and the northeast of mordor using the current wandering AI parties would dilute them to the point that you wouldnt see many.  So youd either need to bound the paths allowed by map tricks or you need to control them all with specific AIs, which is easier now but still requires a major revamp.

But I always figured there was a way to do it. The problem would be that I dont feel like it.   :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on March 30, 2007, 10:17:27 PM
There was some discussion on extremely large maps here:
http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,356.0.html

Fujiwara explained the long load times, and other large-map bugs.

----------------------
Of course, much of the point is moot until we can get some custom skeletons and actually make the Dwarves playable PC/NPC.  Until then, a dwarf can only be a stage prop ... Might be OK as a merchant or something, but you can't really make a faction out of them just yet.

Somebody suggested that if Moria was defeated, dwarves could move back into there.  That might be an excuse to add several of them (as merchants and such) without the need to have standing armies of them.  They could just stand around being merchants/stageprops, without actually needing to move/fight/etc.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on March 31, 2007, 02:10:51 AM
Actually, as much as I find this discussion interesting, it should continue elsewhere. Either take it to suggestions, or start a new "Dwarves"(which I highly recommend, it will be easier for searching and answering the endless questions when dwarves are going to be playable :))  thread, please. I'm not a moderator, but Concept Art is sorta my responsibility, folks :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 01, 2007, 11:28:57 AM
Just popping in :) I'm reading the "Concerning recent events" thread on taleworlds.net forums and I'm getting more and more confused. I really don't know what to make of it. But, I say....screw that ;) As I don't have any good april 1st pranks in my sleeve, I'll just say this :)

I have some more concepts and if I don't get shot in the next few hours, I'll post them here :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Heimir on April 01, 2007, 11:30:37 AM
Amazing concept art! (wish i could paint like that ><) Looking forward to play the mod!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 01, 2007, 11:44:17 AM
Amazing concept art! (wish i could paint like that ><) Looking forward to play the mod!

thank you :) hopefully you won't have to wait much longer..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on April 01, 2007, 01:51:50 PM
There's a dragon helm at this site:
http://members.aol.com/gijchar/new05.htm
(scroll down)

Looks nice, maybe could be a concept for a dwarven helmet of some sort?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 01, 2007, 02:36:37 PM
wow, thanks for the link, some nice finds!
The dragon helm sure looks fit for the dwarves...
Pity some of the helmets are ruined by the SCA protection pieces..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Finos on April 04, 2007, 03:22:11 PM
The helm looks dwarvish,but could be a little bit more nordic style...  Dwarves should be a part of the new mod, they could at least be merchants or storekeepers and when possible figthers.


Cheers y'all! Good moddin!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Damien on April 06, 2007, 04:23:52 AM
Quote
The helm looks dwarvish,but could be a little bit more nordic style... 


I don't see how, short of removing the entire dragon part of the dragon-helm. Currently, the design looks very Russian. But then, Russian helms looked pretty much like Germanic/Northern European helms with weird face masks. So. . there you have it. Like I said, the only way to make it look even more Nordic than it already does would be by removing the part of it that makes it a dragon-helm and not just 'a helm.'

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on April 06, 2007, 02:54:52 PM
here's a helm I started a while back but never finished... based on a Roman cavalryman helm someone posted on the old forums... intended to make a Rohan helm from it... it's only a little over 200 polies right now, so there's some room to spare there.

(http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/1580/helmxph0.th.png) (http://img482.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helmxph0.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 07, 2007, 01:20:09 AM
that's nice, I'm a big fan of those! (as it's been an inspiration for the rich Snowbourne helmet of mine ;))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 07, 2007, 01:16:29 PM
I kinda like this retexture (by some other guy in the Dukes and Mercenaries thread.) Something like that would be nice for the Haradrim maybe?

(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7146/lamellararmorctb0.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Nahkis on April 08, 2007, 09:24:08 AM
Isn't that the same model that is used for the armour of horsemasters of rhun? And, if I remember correctly, Tolkien describes the haradrim armour to have hints of red and gold. I might be wrong though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on April 08, 2007, 09:31:35 AM
Yeah, we use that same armor for the horsemasters but with a different texture. Im pretty happy with the new harad armors from dablade. We have a new standard shield as well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on April 08, 2007, 09:53:01 AM
that's nice, I'm a big fan of those! (as it's been an inspiration for the rich Snowbourne helmet of mine ;))
that was why I postedit, that sketch reminded me of that helm... might try putting a horse on top and the eyeguard and see how it looks...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on April 08, 2007, 10:16:35 AM
Yeah, that helm can probably be turned into something tolkienish. Has a nice basic shape.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on April 08, 2007, 10:21:40 AM
15 minute job on a horse crest:

(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2813/horsecrestarl4.th.jpg) (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=horsecrestarl4.jpg)

the back side of it looks a bit off, but I'll probably end up adding hair over that part...

still only 330 polys, though the hair will probably add alot to that...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 08, 2007, 10:23:26 AM
good! :) looking forward to it..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Finos on April 08, 2007, 12:43:39 PM
hmm, that armor is a lil to heavy for the haradrim, i think it fits better for the men of Rhûn
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Matheus on April 11, 2007, 09:48:57 AM
I kinda like this retexture (by some other guy in the Dukes and Mercenaries thread.) Something like that would be nice for the Haradrim maybe?

(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7146/lamellararmorctb0.jpg)

Feel free to use it, Melkir, but don't forget the credits.  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 12, 2007, 06:06:34 AM
I felt like posting something..no big update. Just a few concepts :) As the title says..

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/DwarvenWarriorHelms.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on April 12, 2007, 12:32:17 PM
Real nice ones.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 12, 2007, 01:33:45 PM
thanks, I was trying something different. There's heavy byzantian and japanese influence..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 12, 2007, 03:47:20 PM
"only" five month's work. Not mine of course :) I wish I had that..

(http://poetspol.web4u.cz/other/supiny_boza.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Finos on April 15, 2007, 03:58:18 AM
Great lookin helms you got there, especially the last one  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 15, 2007, 04:46:02 AM
Great lookin helms you got there, especially the last one  :)

thanks. The last one keeps reminding me of A.Hopkins. Don't bloody know why.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on April 15, 2007, 08:30:06 AM
The right one in particular I like. The only detail I would change when getting it modelled is the slight tear cuts in the far right helm. Im 50/50 on those so Id probably ask they be dropped. Of them, I prefer the right two I think.  The left one is interesting though. That one I think needs a more substantial mask for practical reasons. The current narrow center could be the detail work on it though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 15, 2007, 09:21:24 AM
I like the one on the right, although I think you could change the nose part to a more stylized thing. The one on the left, I think the top looks too much like your elven helm designs, although it looks very nice. The mask reminds me of a baboon, lol. I think the top of the second also looks a bit elvish, maybe you could try a different approach.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 15, 2007, 09:47:54 AM
hm, the pointy tops are somewhat an eastern influence (rus, byzantine, maybe even arabian..). Might change it to a ridge. Or a plume! I've drawn a few plumed helmets for the dwarves which I think look quite good.

Also I think it won't be that bad if dwarven and elven helmets look a bit alike. But yeah, I think I'll try to be more fantasy, wilder shapes maybe..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 18, 2007, 02:29:38 AM
heh, found a pic that's awfully similar to my snowbourne rider concept :D I must have seen it before:

(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i54/JTCrusader/warriors.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 18, 2007, 02:30:45 AM
I ran into some EB renders of cataphraktoi, might be useful..

(http://www.europabarbarorum.com/p/3D/skythian-nobles.jpg)
(http://www.europabarbarorum.com/p/3D/saka-cats.jpg)
(http://www.europabarbarorum.com/p/3D/bak-kataph.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 18, 2007, 03:08:09 AM
I love these! Raz has made an idle spear animation so it lays on the shoulder like that. But it can't be put in yet :( pity.

(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/2552/maa092jj5.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 18, 2007, 09:41:44 AM
these are absolutely perfect for haradrim heavy cavalry! Crusades:TW has the best skins ever :)
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/791/previewsaracen021ro6vb.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/791/previewsaracen021ro6vb.jpg)
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8058/previewsaracen13xi1ut.jpg (http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8058/previewsaracen13xi1ut.jpg)
http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/9748/rikabpreview5zz.jpg (http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/9748/rikabpreview5zz.jpg)
http://img422.imageshack.us/img422/4783/officerspreview5js.jpg (http://img422.imageshack.us/img422/4783/officerspreview5js.jpg)
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5421/ayyubidrenderpreview4pr.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5421/ayyubidrenderpreview4pr.jpg)
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8615/previewghulam6fz.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8615/previewghulam6fz.jpg)
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4909/jaridahrender1wf.jpg (http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4909/jaridahrender1wf.jpg)
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2815/nubianrender0mg.jpg (http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2815/nubianrender0mg.jpg)
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5972/nubianpreview6dn.jpg (http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5972/nubianpreview6dn.jpg)
and these are Easterlings! beards and axes :)
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5238/mamlukrenderpreview4ic.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5238/mamlukrenderpreview4ic.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 18, 2007, 10:18:37 AM
these are absolutely perfect for haradrim heavy cavalry! Crusades:TW has the best skins ever :)
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/791/previewsaracen021ro6vb.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/791/previewsaracen021ro6vb.jpg)
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8058/previewsaracen13xi1ut.jpg (http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8058/previewsaracen13xi1ut.jpg)
and these are Easterlings! beards and axes :)
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5238/mamlukrenderpreview4ic.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5238/mamlukrenderpreview4ic.jpg)

Yeah, those look great. That kind of helms would be great for the Easterlings.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 18, 2007, 02:19:00 PM
We should ask Raz for some of his tourbans and bedouin clothes :)

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/2695/sudanesepreview21pl.jpg (http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/2695/sudanesepreview21pl.jpg)
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3135/hashishinpreview6hz.jpg (http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3135/hashishinpreview6hz.jpg)
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5336/nizaripreview1op.jpg (http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5336/nizaripreview1op.jpg)
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/5481/arabianpreview29gn.jpg (http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/5481/arabianpreview29gn.jpg)
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9659/arabs13aj.jpg (http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9659/arabs13aj.jpg)

padded light cavalry, also cool!

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/8963/kumahpreview2rf.jpg (http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/8963/kumahpreview2rf.jpg)

love the earrings :D
http://img285.imageshack.us/img285/8244/arabianpreview5wa.jpg (http://img285.imageshack.us/img285/8244/arabianpreview5wa.jpg)

the guys at the bottom are so kickass!

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8505/saracenadvance1al.jpg (http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8505/saracenadvance1al.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 18, 2007, 02:29:09 PM
Sorry I spam here with all these, but I totally love them and intend to steal a lot from them :)

For instance this guy is insane genius of aesthetic armor design :)

(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/9913/edessarender8zz.jpg)

nice "easterlings"

(http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/7110/ayyubidcrossbowpreview7lp.jpg)
(http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3214/turcomanftrender1pk.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 18, 2007, 03:01:28 PM
I love the crossbow dudes :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Nahkis on April 19, 2007, 08:42:26 AM
Yeah, just give them the bows those other guys are using.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 19, 2007, 11:49:02 AM
I'm storing this guy here as an idea for the Snowbourne riders.

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/PHI1684.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 19, 2007, 12:17:11 PM
Who were those Snowbourne riders? I can't remember them.

This is a new horse retexture I've made for the Arnor guys (not for the Knights). I wanted to keep it simple

(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/6286/arnorhorseonlyleatheryu1.jpg)


And this is a new Dol Amroth war horse texture.

(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9715/dolhorsenewjd3.jpg)

These are still .751 screenshots.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 19, 2007, 12:22:19 PM
It's an idea of mine. Snowbourne was one of the places in Rohan that sent it's riders to join Theoden on his ride to Minas Tirith. I once drew a guy, he looked like rohirrim, but sort of different. I said: OK, this could be a Snowbourne rider :) Don't know if AW is gonna include them, don't know if there's still room in the troop trees. But I thought Rohan could use some auxillia troops too.

I like the horses :) Nice and simple. (the first one) and flashy knightly (second one :))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on April 19, 2007, 05:20:53 PM
I still like the leather warhorse, but I think the dol amroth one might be too much. Maybe not, just my first impression.

As for the concepts, yeah, lots of nice stuff. Those crossbow guys are very nice as are several of the heavy knights.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on April 19, 2007, 06:21:51 PM
Nice stuff.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 19, 2007, 07:43:08 PM
I still like the leather warhorse, but I think the dol amroth one might be too much. Maybe not, just my first impression.

As for the concepts, yeah, lots of nice stuff. Those crossbow guys are very nice as are several of the heavy knights.

You gotta try it in game. I love to see them charge with this new texture. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 20, 2007, 01:39:10 AM
the dol amroth one is maybe too high contrast which makes it look busy. Maybe choosing a lighter blue instead of the white? don't know, I still like it as it is..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Nahkis on April 20, 2007, 07:03:55 AM
The Dol Amroth guy is just stunning. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 20, 2007, 08:07:28 AM
the dol amroth one is maybe too high contrast which makes it look busy. Maybe choosing a lighter blue instead of the white? don't know, I still like it as it is..

nah, it looks great. good job :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CXZAR on April 20, 2007, 05:07:30 PM
the Dol Amroth just look AMAZING... i registered to MBX just to say that... it looks really good DaBlade i think you guys should keep it that way
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 20, 2007, 07:11:54 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. I like to post some of the stuff to understand how other people feel about it. Sometimes I'm not too sure if something might be overdone or if other stuff is too simple.

Between your feedback and team consensus, I think we'll be able to find better solutions. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on April 20, 2007, 08:45:20 PM
that DA knight steed looks great... the only thing I'd change (simply because I'm a nit-picking ass..) is to have either the swan boat or the wings on the back cloth part, not both. it just seems a bit too "busy" with both, IMO. it looks great, but that's my feedback ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on April 22, 2007, 01:46:00 PM
Hey Merlkir, have you come across this site:
http://www.lordotrings.com/noflash/books/armor.asp

I was just going through the internet looking for some First Age pictures, and stumbled across this sight.

(I don't know about accuracy, though.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 22, 2007, 01:58:39 PM
hm, interesting, I don't have the time to read it whole through, but I like only some stuff of it. Namely the dwarven helms..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on April 22, 2007, 05:55:33 PM
The dwarves were the main reason I posted it here.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 23, 2007, 04:30:33 AM
The article itself is interesting (the images are mostly hidious though.).

Quote
With the coming of the Second Age, all of the old models of equipment continued, with some notable variations. The Men of Numenor contrived much fine gear of war, and made some interesting items. They devised powerful bows of tempered steel, for example. Tolkien drew an example of a type of Numenorean helm called a Karma. It was wrought of over- lapping plates of metal, and covered with a crest of embossed and dyed leather, which gave it the appearance of a fish. This picture is featured on the dust cover of Unfinished Tales. It perhaps can be inferred that if the Numenoreans had such cleverly wrought and decorated equipment, then the Noldor, their teachers, had equipment at least as fantastic, if not more so. A sampling of Numenorean blade-smithing is shown in the blades of the Barrow Downs, which were brought to light by Tom Bombadil in the Third Age. The blades were leaf shaped, and were decorated with intertwining damascening (probably inlay work). The sheaths of these short swords were wrought of black metal and covered with red gems. These sheaths might have had some special quality of protection for the blades within.

I can't yet imagine how that helmet worked, but I'll figure it out ;)
And the Blades of Westernesse! I've always wanted to design them. The one we have as a reward is too fantasy for my taste ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 23, 2007, 05:08:19 AM
heh, I knew there was something familiar about that gear. I haven't visited the websity of Ancanar for a long time, but it looks quite promising if it ever comes out ;)

http://www.herenistarion.org/ancanar/ (http://www.herenistarion.org/ancanar/)

lonely mountain forge is responsible for arms and armor in that movie and I like the most of it.Very neat roman influence...

http://members.aol.com/gijchar/main.htm (http://members.aol.com/gijchar/main.htm)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 23, 2007, 09:03:33 AM
these are absolutely perfect for haradrim heavy cavalry! Crusades:TW has the best skins ever :)
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/791/previewsaracen021ro6vb.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/791/previewsaracen021ro6vb.jpg)
http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8058/previewsaracen13xi1ut.jpg (http://img449.imageshack.us/img449/8058/previewsaracen13xi1ut.jpg)
http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/9748/rikabpreview5zz.jpg (http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/9748/rikabpreview5zz.jpg)
http://img422.imageshack.us/img422/4783/officerspreview5js.jpg (http://img422.imageshack.us/img422/4783/officerspreview5js.jpg)
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5421/ayyubidrenderpreview4pr.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5421/ayyubidrenderpreview4pr.jpg)
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8615/previewghulam6fz.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8615/previewghulam6fz.jpg)
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4909/jaridahrender1wf.jpg (http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4909/jaridahrender1wf.jpg)
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2815/nubianrender0mg.jpg (http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2815/nubianrender0mg.jpg)
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5972/nubianpreview6dn.jpg (http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5972/nubianpreview6dn.jpg)
and these are Easterlings! beards and axes :)
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5238/mamlukrenderpreview4ic.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5238/mamlukrenderpreview4ic.jpg)

i really like a lot of these, and these helmets here: http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5421/ayyubidrenderpreview4pr.jpg would be great for Rohan i think. without the little feather maybe :P optionally with horse hairflowing back.
what do you guys think¿?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 23, 2007, 09:20:30 AM
my problem is that I see the history behind the designs. It looks too eastern to fit the rohirrim, who have mostly viking/anglo saxon based helmets..
For haradrim or easterling cataphracts I wouldn't mind :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 23, 2007, 09:34:07 AM
my problem is that I see the history behind the designs. It looks too eastern to fit the rohirrim, who have mostly viking/anglo saxon based helmets..
For haradrim or easterling cataphracts I wouldn't mind :)

oh yeah i hear what you're saying here, i was thinking more like this (please disregard stupid horns :D):

(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9gnMiis0SxGEDUBL7ajzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12sjkfu6f/EXP=1177428780/**http%3A//najtvolk.art.pl/film/recenzje/img/jerzy_hoffman-stara_basn_01.jpg)

maybe for heaviest Rohan cavalry or best infantry.

here's another one:

(http://www.jomsborg.pl/foto/01012003/40.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 23, 2007, 10:07:43 AM
yeah, these old type nordic helemts with a full mail ventail are surely in my mind for the rohirrim. If I'm not mistaken, we already have one as a reward item.! with horns ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 23, 2007, 10:32:32 AM
yeah, these old type nordic helemts with a full mail ventail are surely in my mind for the rohirrim. If I'm not mistaken, we already have one as a reward item.! with horns ;)

ah, so it is actually accesible in-game! great! but yeah, these are very appropriate looking for the Rohirrim.

PS do you have a screenshot of this helmet in game Merlkir?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 23, 2007, 11:20:16 AM
I do, but it is a surprise. :) wait for the new version.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 23, 2007, 11:22:49 AM
I do, but it is a surprise. :) wait for the new version.

haha, i hear ya. i completely understand.

but, if you wanna pm me a screenie i wouldn't say no :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 23, 2007, 11:36:40 AM
I don't. Cruel, ha? :D The fact is that I've been assigned a secret mission by the great AW, so I'm on my way...c'ya
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 23, 2007, 01:47:52 PM
I don't. Cruel, ha? :D The fact is that I've been assigned a secret mission by the great AW, so I'm on my way...c'ya

haha, fair enough.

from armor and weapon design stand point what can we expect from new version?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 23, 2007, 02:43:10 PM
Check previous pages. This is not for chat, so please stay on topic.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 23, 2007, 03:09:20 PM
yeah, I know it might be boring and sound like a waste of time, but reading this whole thread is a good idea if you want to know what might be in the next version.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on April 23, 2007, 04:40:55 PM
There should be another model presentation thread, like the one from the old forum. It would be able to satisfy peoples hunger for new material.

(Last off-topic post from me...)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 23, 2007, 05:00:35 PM
This is supposed to be just that. If you look at the first page, you'll see Ancientwanker imported it from the old forum at Taleworlds.

There's nothing wrong with going a bit OT (at least for me), as long as you don't go on and on. But if you ask what's new in the next version because you're too lazy to go a few pages back or take a look at the screenshots in the anniversary topic, well... what do you make of that?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 23, 2007, 07:31:06 PM
This is supposed to be just that. If you look at the first page, you'll see Ancientwanker imported it from the old forum at Taleworlds.

There's nothing wrong with going a bit OT (at least for me), as long as you don't go on and on. But if you ask what's new in the next version because you're too lazy to go a few pages back or take a look at the screenshots in the anniversary topic, well... what do you make of that?

bro, i have read ALL of the topics here and on Taleworlds website concerning TLD, and no, it wasn't a waste of time. as a matter of fact i love this mod and crave for any new info, so please, don't talk down to me. i am not some idiot who comes in without doing their homework, so spare me. sorry if i went a bit off-topic here anyhow but if you read my post again, i am asking about something pretty specific. i have seen all of the screenshots but was hoping for little extra, is all.

plus i am willing to help you guys with concept design as soon as i get new scanner.

Blade, feel free to delete this post once its read by you guys...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on April 23, 2007, 08:43:08 PM
I believe DaBlade was addressing Albino, who said we should have a model presentaion thread like on the old forum (which I started to see if AW would like my ork... how that grew) we've just kind of merged the model presentation thread with the concept art thread, because they are kind of hand-in-hand, so to say. plus, I didn't want to start a new one because most of the stuff I've done isn't going to be shown off until the release:P have to leave something for surprise, right? I've posted a few teasers here and there like the dwarf swords, a Faramir-inspired sword, some newer Rohan helms, and such. but some of the better stuff is being saved for release.

and I don't think there's a horned Rohan helm, or one with a full aventail (though... it's not a bad idea... damned be me and my blasted scabbards to work on!) but there is an evil helm with horns... and Aw has posted a pic of it (subtly) himself...

as far as going "OT" it's generally accepted in this thread, as long as it's not too far from the topic. it's a "concept art" thread, but models are presented and there is plenty of discussion in terms of what happens between the concept and the model.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 23, 2007, 08:55:48 PM
Actually I was adressing both, heh.

Sorry Senta, it didn't sound to me like you looked at the screenshots. And I already replied somewhere to what you were asking, I just wasn't much specific about it because we like to keep some surprises for the release day.

I see no need to delete any post, and I'm not a moderator here. I'm just a member of the team.

You're very welcome to post your concept designs whenever you wish. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 23, 2007, 09:56:49 PM
and I don't think there's a horned Rohan helm, or one with a full aventail (though... it's not a bad idea... damned be me and my blasted scabbards to work on!) but there is an evil helm with horns... and Aw has posted a pic of it (subtly) himself...

no more questions from me, i promise :D

here's another version of full faced helmet, this one seems more fitting for Easterlings though.

(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3219/hussarxu8.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 24, 2007, 03:38:32 AM
interesting, I have osprey on Hussars, but don't recall this particular one. The easterlings are a possibility I guess..the technology and design is mighty advanced from the eras we usually pick stuff from though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 24, 2007, 06:23:50 AM
interesting, I have osprey on Hussars, but don't recall this particular one. The easterlings are a possibility I guess..the technology and design is mighty advanced from the eras we usually pick stuff from though.

it's from Polish Armies 1569-1696 p1. and of course it seems way too advanced for the era but something based on this helmet would be a decent fit.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 25, 2007, 12:18:02 PM
Aqtai posted a great site for ornate swords.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2574&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2574&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

these are my favourite:

(an elven blade? I don't really know. A bit bizarre ;))
http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?Roma1454_02.jpg (http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?Roma1454_02.jpg)
this one is just excellent!
http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?italia_settentrionale1433b.jpg (http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?italia_settentrionale1433b.jpg)
cool one
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=3410 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=3410)
and another cool one ;)
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=3412 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=3412)
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=3411 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=3411)
These could be rewards for haradrim players.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/ISAS_16_102.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/ISAS_16_101.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/ISAS_21_1.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 27, 2007, 11:02:30 AM
better quality Rohirrim style full aventail helmet:

(http://www.albion-swords.com/images/armor/viking/iph0042.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 27, 2007, 11:53:00 AM
yeah. I have some more of these..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on April 27, 2007, 12:12:14 PM
Those blades are something else.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on April 27, 2007, 06:40:42 PM
WIP w/potential?

(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4139/rohanaventalqx6.th.jpg) (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rohanaventalqx6.jpg)

EDIT:
yeah, I realize it looks a bit queer with how it's a bit elongated and tapers near the bottom. this is done mainly for the purpose of trying to eliminate some ugly-ass clipping issues that tend to happen with coifs/hoods/aventails. it looks fine in the game, trust me. I had to do the same thing with the Haradrim helms I made recently (and has only been seen by devs thus far, as it's something I've kept under wraps  :P )

over
over
over
OUT!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 27, 2007, 10:44:05 PM
WIP w/potential?

(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4139/rohanaventalqx6.th.jpg) (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rohanaventalqx6.jpg)

EDIT:
yeah, I realize it looks a bit queer with how it's a bit elongated and tapers near the bottom. this is done mainly for the purpose of trying to eliminate some ugly-ass clipping issues that tend to happen with coifs/hoods/aventails. it looks fine in the game, trust me. I had to do the same thing with the Haradrim helms I made recently (and has only been seen by devs thus far, as it's something I've kept under wraps  :P )

hell yeah it's looking good :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 28, 2007, 02:13:49 AM
coolness :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on April 28, 2007, 06:41:23 AM
That looks good octo, nice work.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 30, 2007, 06:37:22 PM
i am not sure what's Raz's stance on it, but his "turban_helmet_blue" (the one with blue cloth around it and covering the face) or something similar would be great for Haradrim.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on April 30, 2007, 08:21:43 PM
Here's an Idea for dwarven concepts:
We just derive inspiration from celtiberian designs, and various Hallsalt culture armours. +nordic and facemask things

Also, Since dwarves are short, surely they would wear large plumes? After all, plumes are ment to make one appear taller on the battlefield, so surely dwarves would wear such greatly plumed helmets against taller foes?

I drew up a few concepts today:
(http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8938/dwarvenstuffus8.jpg) (http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwarvenstuffus8.jpg)

And take a look through this site:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/skyelander/menu14.html
I'm liking the look of everything in there.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stemmers? on April 30, 2007, 08:42:01 PM
Despite what Peter Jackson would have us believe, I don't think the dwarves had an inferiority complex about being short.  :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 01, 2007, 01:07:23 AM
I can't believe we had almost THE EXACT SAME idea! :) Most of the plumes, even the helm designs (greek, macedonian, huh?) are VERY similar to what I drew. And haven't shown I think :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: averyware on May 01, 2007, 01:27:35 AM
under standing each race...


just for my own understanding can anyone break done the living/fighting style of each race we are working on.

i see a lot of drawings for "pike men" for all the races. is this something all races used or are they just ideas. i really just want to better myself for this project because really i dont know what is the fighting style of each race. and that means sub-races too like rohan, gondor.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 01, 2007, 01:50:04 AM
If you play the mod, you can see pretty much the fighting styles we want. Yeah, lots of spears and pikes. A spear was cheaper than a sword and could be used both with or without a shield. On or off horse. Was used a lot. As AW said, we're trying to give MiddleEarth characters sort of semi-historical appearance and equipment. So rohan is viking/anglo saxon culture with a strong horse element, gondor is medieval looking, chainmail, big shields, spears, swords, most of the helmets we have for them are based on the movie one. Lots of black color on their clothes. Or dark blue. Elves are similart to norman knights. Long chainmail, high norman like helmets. We added some elements like steel pauldrons, but they still use long shields and no curved blades. Also have lots of archers. Mordor orcs are a mix of what you've seen in the movies and of our own imagination. Dirty, nasty, pointy, sharp looking guys ;) Uruks from Isengard have similar design to the movies, but no plate armor. Pikes, sabres, shields..The dunlanders are sort of savage hill folk. Wearing hides, leather, some pieces of stolen mail. Or their own skin in the case of berserkers. They use axes, spears and some swords I believe. Their cavalry has quite big shields. Haradrim are eastern/african influence. They have formidable cavalry and not very strong infantry. Lots of gold, red and a black snake on red is their emblem. We chose a bit arabic style for them, but they should be many different tribes, so there's room for improvisation. Easterlings are strong, bearded and eastern looking :D so different eastern influence than with the haradrim. More nomadic mongol types for the horse archers. For their elite variag cataphracts we obviously chose kataphraktoi of all sorts (Sarmatian, Byzantian..) as a referrence. The corsairs are difficult. They're a mix of pirate types with well trained soldiers from the black numenorian cities. They use short swords, spears and even crossbows.

Again, to see what we have so far, play through the mod and see for yourself. Look at my concepts also.
To understand the cultures, if you haven't read the books, you might want to watch the movies at least. We don't use their designs, but the cultures are there. Or we can give you a link to some tolkien encyclopaedia where they have the races better summarized.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 01, 2007, 01:52:08 AM
also I forgot, there was a post somewhere that linked various pictures from Osprey's history books we wanted to use as referrence.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on May 01, 2007, 03:22:27 PM
What kind of birds do they have in dwarven mines?

Plumes are the antithesis of everything dwarven.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on May 01, 2007, 03:41:20 PM
Canaries. To smell the gas.

Therefore, all plumes must be luminous yellow, with no exceptions.  :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on May 01, 2007, 07:26:34 PM
I can't believe we had almost THE EXACT SAME idea! :) Most of the plumes, even the helm designs (greek, macedonian, huh?) are VERY similar to what I drew. And haven't shown I think :)
I was going for celtiberian and Hallstatt culture helmets.
Maybe I didnt represent it well in those pics, which do look like macedonian designs.

Maybe a mix of macedonian (more towards thracian, and without the Phygrian), celtiberian, and Hallstatt culture helmets?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 02, 2007, 03:27:17 AM
What kind of birds do they have in dwarven mines?

Plumes are the antithesis of everything dwarven.

oh, come on, that's a bit too cliche, don't you think? I mean..to have all dwarves look like they just crawled out of a mine..
I really don't see a reason why they wouldn't be able to trade the feathers from the elves or men.


I can't believe we had almost THE EXACT SAME idea! :) Most of the plumes, even the helm designs (greek, macedonian, huh?) are VERY similar to what I drew. And haven't shown I think :)
I was going for celtiberian and Hallstatt culture helmets.
Maybe I didnt represent it well in those pics, which do look like macedonian designs.

Maybe a mix of macedonian (more towards thracian, and without the Phygrian), celtiberian, and Hallstatt culture helmets?

it's ok, I mean, they all look a bit alike..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 02, 2007, 04:45:55 AM
On the topic of plumes> I've always liked plumed helmets and it was kinda sad we hadn't any of those in TLD. The rohirrim get plenty of plumes from what I've seen in the new version, but I thought they would fit the dwarves nicely. The Last Alliance mod for 0AD had some pretty plumed helmets designs for noldor that I liked..but our style for elves is kinda set, so I thought the dwarves could use them. And the argument with birds is really not...well thought out. I mean..do elves wear only stuff they find in the forest or what?

edit: I'll post the concepts in the evening once I get home. I wanted to repaint them to be nicer, but I really don't have the time now and I think the simple sketches will do for this kind of long shot stuff.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Oubliette on May 02, 2007, 05:12:17 AM
The plumed helmets and the current concept for dwarves looks good. I was wondering, would the plumed helmets be used by the majority of the troops, just the high tiers, or mixed in with other styles of unplumed helmets?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 02, 2007, 05:27:36 AM
The plumed helmets and the current concept for dwarves looks good. I was wondering, would the plumed helmets be used by the majority of the troops, just the high tiers, or mixed in with other styles of unplumed helmets?

that's a good question. I asked Damien for advice on the dwarves military structure and culture and we surprisingly agreed on some vital points. I may as well copy paste it from the email.

Quote
Attila01: Center character. Mail corselet with lamellae corselet over it.
Since 'Dwarves make light of such burdens' - this seems like a natural for
'heavily armoured' Dwarves, and doesn't conflict with the presumed timeframe
of Middle-earth. The helmet seems a good match for something Dwarves would
make as well, like their 'Dragon-helm.'

Attila09: Far left character. Again, Dwarves 'making light of such burdens'
would likely utilize long lamellae coats as heavy protection.

Byzantium 03: This just screams 'Dwarves.'

FrenchMedieval02: Central character.The full suit of mail combined with a
brigandine coat -- heavy armour, but suitable for the stout Dwarves.
Likewise, the helmet, designed to protect against downward strikes, seems a
natural fit for an entire race of short people.

GermanicWarrior06: Typical Scandinavian garb. Earthtones, light armament.
Good for Dwarven levies or other non-heavy soldiers.

ItalianMedieval12: Central character. Axe, Mail hauberk, flowing undershirt.
Seems a natural fit for a high-ranking Dwarf.

ItalianMedieval14: Tell me this whole visual doesn't scream 'Dwarves.'

MedievalRussian03: Far right character. More mail with the lamellae
corselet. Big round shield, axe. Good heavy Dwarven infantry.

MedievalRussian06: More Dwarves.

TheVikings07: Even more Dwarves.



I would also throw in some Roman influences. Due to their short stature, I
would say that close formation with thrusting weapons seems quite the
natural fit for Dwarves, especially since one of their primary enemies,
Goblins, tend to attack in massive numbers.

ehm..there were pictures of course, I can't link those from my email..

The point is..as I've designed it already, the troop tree will have two main branches. Warrior X Levy/soldier
Warriors are heavily armored, they're masters of combat, they use mostly longer swords and axes. Their armor is ornamental, their helmets too, they also consist of scary masks to frighten the enemy. I've drawn some plumes for them too, but I guess they would wear more like...ridges on the tops of their helmets. Or plumes representing their bloodline, or some mythical animals. (dragons and stuff..)
Soldiers are the core of the army. Trained from miners, farmers and peasants they have lighter armor (starting with hastati type of tunic with a small breastplate and ending with sergeant at arms type of chainmail over padded armor..), large shields. They use spears, shorter stabbing swords and shorter axes and maces. they fight in a formation (roman influence as Damien wrote..) which I don't know if AW plans on implementing, but I think we should. In 300 it works mighty fine and I think it would make the dwarves even more exceptional. Roman influence also appears in their gear. Still..I'm kinda mixing some very different styles. Early roman helmets, even some greek or macedonian designs with frankish types or steel hat helmets from the crusades times. Would make sense for the officers to wear plumes. (good point there, Oubliette). Plumes could therefore differ ranks and also types of troops. The soldier branch will include ranged troops also. Slingers, javeliners and short bow archers.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 02, 2007, 06:15:38 AM
Sounds good.

Something about dwarves with plumed helms screams Warhammer to me, not sure why. I dont really have a problem with it though, have to see how it turns out.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 02, 2007, 08:22:47 AM
warhammer dwarves look like this:

(http://www.worldofwarhammer.ru/images/info/warhammer_dwarf_army.gif)
(http://rollenspiel.inter.at/warhammer/warhammerfantasy/warhammer/Bilder/dwarf.gif)
(http://jp.games-workshop.com/Warhammer/armies/dwarfs/gettingstarted/images/dwarf-warrior_270x270.jpg)

maybe you mean Trollslayers ;) they have hair like plumes:

(http://www.geocities.com/danielmataylor/trollslayer.gif)
(http://www.stronghold-online.de/Bildergalerie/BloodBowl/BBSlayer_01.jpg)
(http://www.pixelmania.at/user/trollslayer/gumpen.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on May 02, 2007, 09:33:33 PM
More ideas, the medieval turkish chainmail in particular, screams dwarven for me for some reason:
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/1781/moredwarvesmy8.jpg) (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=moredwarvesmy8.jpg)
Sorry for low quality, I dont have a working scanner...or a digital camera at that, so all I got is my cell.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 03, 2007, 03:53:12 AM
yeah, I've used it for one of my haradrim, but since this one was not used in the game, I have it for dwarves as well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on May 03, 2007, 11:15:24 AM
What kind of birds do they have in dwarven mines?

Plumes are the antithesis of everything dwarven.

oh, come on, that's a bit too cliche, don't you think? I mean..to have all dwarves look like they just crawled out of a mine..
I really don't see a reason why they wouldn't be able to trade the feathers from the elves or men.


I can't believe we had almost THE EXACT SAME idea! :) Most of the plumes, even the helm designs (greek, macedonian, huh?) are VERY similar to what I drew. And haven't shown I think :)
I was going for celtiberian and Hallstatt culture helmets.
Maybe I didnt represent it well in those pics, which do look like macedonian designs.

Maybe a mix of macedonian (more towards thracian, and without the Phygrian), celtiberian, and Hallstatt culture helmets?

it's ok, I mean, they all look a bit alike..

It's only a cliche because everyone copied tolkien, and poorly.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on May 03, 2007, 11:19:26 AM
And the argument with birds is really not...well thought out. I mean..do elves wear only stuff they find in the forest or what?

Dwarves are very practical creatures. They use wood, but they do not venerate wood or nature, but in fact tend to dislike the woods, a them that is pretty obvious in all of Tolkien's writing.  That's why it's ridiculous. If they made ornamentation it would be gold or silver or gems, not feathers.

Since they live underground, it again becomes more impractical to have some helmet that sticks up very high.  Hitting their helmet on the ceiling is not goign to win them any fights.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 03, 2007, 11:44:43 AM
still not convincing, most of the plumes ever used could be removed and reattached again.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on May 03, 2007, 12:31:37 PM
still not convincing, most of the plumes ever used could be removed and reattached again.

Again, how is that practical?

I don't know why you think this applies to dwarves.  It just makes no sense for their basic personalities.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 03, 2007, 01:21:18 PM
1)Again, how is that practical?

2) It just makes no sense for their basic personalities.

1) dunno, ask the Romans.
2) hm. Could you please extend those "basic personalities"? Explain them a bit? maybe support it with quotes? (I don't have any quotes for plumes, just threw in an idea I liked and which suited the dwarves for me.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on May 03, 2007, 05:42:37 PM
The basic roman soldier did not wear a plume, it was the officers to distinguish themselves from the rest.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on May 03, 2007, 08:01:39 PM
still not convincing, most of the plumes ever used could be removed and reattached again.

Again, how is that practical?

I don't know why you think this applies to dwarves.  It just makes no sense for their basic personalities.
Short people, in general, want to look taller no? After all, it was a short man who invented high heels.
Since dwarves would look silly in high heels, give them plumes, they were used in those ages to not only signify rank, but to impose an illusion of greater height.
You might say that dwarves dont have the wish to grow taller, as many short men do, but do you have proof? Plumes in mines may be a nuisence, but TLD battles are not underground, the dwarves would be with full-sized men, elves, orcs, goblins and uruks, plumes would be a help.
It's also practical because one can argue that the plume, which would probably bring the dwarve only to a man's eye-height, would be very distracting to the man.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 03, 2007, 08:36:17 PM
Decorative items - capes, feathers, horns, whatever - are often added to military attire.  Like a bullfighter's cape, they serve the very vital purpose of distraction.  It's very easy to miss somebody's head several times, or hit metal instead of meat, if their head is concealed under a bunch of feathers and ribbons and such until you can't even tell what is head, what is helmet, and what is just feathers.

A red rose in your left jacket pocket is another good one, or police badges - people's eyes will focus on the flower or the shiny badge, and they will shoot for the left shoulder instead of the heart or liver.  Same reason they teach police to never hold a flashlight in front of their body - any fire returned will be directed at the light.  The ancient world knew this stuff, and took maximum advantage of it every chance they got.

Decorations also serve the psychological function of making fighters look bigger, or just strange.  Carthage put all kinds of plumes and noisemakers on their helmets, horses, elephants and whatever ... scared the life out of just about everybody they ever faced.  The Japanese samurai did the same - some of their helmets just defy description.  Rome used a lot of animal skins on their standard-bearers and skirmishers - putting the critter's head up over the helmet... if the critter was a lion or a bear, it was pretty demoralizing to anybody who faced them.  Same with the Aztecs.

So I say go for it - plumes, horns, whatever.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on May 03, 2007, 09:18:28 PM
Decorative items - capes, feathers, horns, whatever - are often added to military attire.  Like a bullfighter's cape, they serve the very vital purpose of distraction.  It's very easy to miss somebody's head several times, or hit metal instead of meat, if their head is concealed under a bunch of feathers and ribbons and such until you can't even tell what is head, what is helmet, and what is just feathers.

A red rose in your left jacket pocket is another good one, or police badges - people's eyes will focus on the flower or the shiny badge, and they will shoot for the left shoulder instead of the heart or liver.  Same reason they teach police to never hold a flashlight in front of their body - any fire returned will be directed at the light.  The ancient world knew this stuff, and took maximum advantage of it every chance they got.

Decorations also serve the psychological function of making fighters look bigger, or just strange.  Carthage put all kinds of plumes and noisemakers on their helmets, horses, elephants and whatever ... scared the life out of just about everybody they ever faced.  The Japanese samurai did the same - some of their helmets just defy description.  Rome used a lot of animal skins on their standard-bearers and skirmishers - putting the critter's head up over the helmet... if the critter was a lion or a bear, it was pretty demoralizing to anybody who faced them.  Same with the Aztecs.

So I say go for it - plumes, horns, whatever.


i agree 100%. as far as the argument "they didn't have any birds hence no access to feathers" can be easily debated. Polish hussars used skins of many wild exotic animals, and Poland wasn't exactly known for tigers or leopards ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 03, 2007, 09:25:07 PM
For some reason I don't picture dwarves wearing plumes. I know we must use our imagination to fill the gaps, but dwarves wearing plumes doesn't feel like something Tolkien would do, despite of several valid arguments based on logic and common sense.

I think Peter Jackson and team managed to achieve a very nice dwarf concept with Gimli; very close to what I'd imagine from reading the books.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 03, 2007, 09:41:19 PM
The movie characters all wore plate armor, which Tolkien never used.  Therefore, however much in the spirit of being psychologically like Tolkien dwarves it may have been, it is not a workable concept for this frame of reference.

However, on that logic, I would really more expect the dwarves to use horns on their helmets, or high metal ridges or crests, or both... possibly with fur of some sort.  (The Roman/Macedonian officer-type ridges with hair scrub-brush, maybe?)    Feathered plumes, especially long plumes protruding from the tops of the helmets, are normally more associated with horsemen, such that the plumes drag air and create interesting noises.  This is not a rule, as the Americas used feathered headgear for centuries before horses were introduced, but it is common practice among those of European background.

Some beads and feathers hanging off of strings from the helmet's earguards might work.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 04, 2007, 01:55:29 AM
Hm. I'll scan the sketches. But again, don't imagine anything like every dwarf looks like a greek hoplite! Most of my dwarves have ridges, crests and horns. Only the soldier types, and I should emphasize this, the HIGH ranks or officers would have them. If you hate the idea so much that is.
I thought it looks nice, but I'm really open to discussion, as I don't decide about it :) just my suggestion.
Actually I take the argument "doesn't fit my vision of dwarves" better, because it's subjective and that I understand.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 04, 2007, 01:58:52 AM
I think Peter Jackson and team managed to achieve a very nice dwarf concept with Gimli; very close to what I'd imagine from reading the books.

at first I liked the designs a lot. But seeing what the other games made of it, I came to hating it. They had not a single original idea about it nad it's just too exagerrated. There is no single curved shape, everything is squared and edgy, even the axes, of which the two handed two bladed I find extremely ugly! The ugliest is the helmet of course :)
I love Gimli's jacket though, that lamellar one. Great design.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Juice on May 04, 2007, 02:00:01 AM
What kind of birds do they have in dwarven mines?

Plumes are the antithesis of everything dwarven.


What kind of animals do they have in general in the dwarven mines? Bats? Rats?

My conclusion: not many of them. At least not many of those which could be used as food.
So as the dwarves gathered food, they must have left the mines and hunted any animals which ever was close to their mine (I don't think they were much of a farmer type  :) ) such as deers, eeks, rabbits and maybe even birds.

So maybe the plumed helmets weren't used by majority of the troops, but maybe by the higher rank warriors and royal guards to make them look scarier and taller etc.

Just my thoughts, Juice
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 04, 2007, 02:03:27 AM
The basic roman soldier did not wear a plume, it was the officers to distinguish themselves from the rest.

not really. Not in every era ;)

triarii

(http://www.historialago.com/leg_cartago_soldadosroma_01.jpg)
(http://home.zonnet.nl/richardevers2000/Pic/triarii2.gif)

hastati:

(http://www.ecomuseodecavalleria.com/es/gifs/hastati.jpg)

principes
http://strategicsimulations.net/catalog/images/SSHAT8017.jpg (http://strategicsimulations.net/catalog/images/SSHAT8017.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 04, 2007, 02:26:56 AM
Go for the plumes with dwarves ... makes as much sense as anything else.  I would have gone more with a "horns and mysterious spikes" motif, but horns and feathers are good too.  Whatever, they need something that makes them look less like humans and elves - less civilized, as it were.  Scary helmets would be a good place to start.

And yeah, Macedonian and Roman Republic troops pretty much all wore feathers and such.  It wasn't until the Roman Empire that they really standardized helmets and armor, and so limited excessive decorations to officers and standard-bearers.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: AlxCruel on May 04, 2007, 04:30:31 AM
Quote
(http://home.zonnet.nl/richardevers2000/Pic/triarii2.gif)
hastati:

Sorry, but it's a triarii ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 04, 2007, 05:26:04 AM
yeah, you think? see to what the description belongs before you smartass me..
(there are three picture total and one link.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on May 04, 2007, 05:50:23 AM
Sorry, but it's a triarii ;)
Sorry, but it's a triarius ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 04, 2007, 06:01:33 AM
of course. It's completely obsolette for the dscussion. I've posted two pictures of them, so I wrote triarii. That guy just felt it was necessary for him to lecture us just because he overlooked the other descriptions..

OT OVER!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Oubliette on May 04, 2007, 07:00:46 AM
Dwarves are very practical creatures. They use wood, but they do not venerate wood or nature, but in fact tend to dislike the woods, a them that is pretty obvious in all of Tolkien's writing.  That's why it's ridiculous. If they made ornamentation it would be gold or silver or gems, not feathers.

Since they live underground, it again becomes more impractical to have some helmet that sticks up very high.  Hitting their helmet on the ceiling is not goign to win them any fights.

I think 'ridiculous' is a bit far-fetched. Remember that nobody has claimed feathers would be used as the principal form of ornamentation over precious gems etc. It does, however, make a lot of sense to actually use feathers over, say, tall horns, spikes or ridges as a specific form of decoration on officers to make them stand out in battle. Horns, spikes and feathers would all distinguish an officer from the rest of his troops. However, only the feather is flexible, so it can hit a ceiling and not cause the same problem that rigid forms of adornment would. Of course, it depends on the style of the plume, but there's no reason to rule out plumes altogether if certain types of plumed helmets would cause an obstruction in the same way that a horned or spiked helmet also would. From my point of view, you can achieve a greater level of conspicuity with plumes than with spikes or horns while having that added flexibility, so I really can't see how it is impractical.

Bear in mind that I'm not blindly backing the idea of plumes, but at the same time I'm not going to shoot down the idea before I've seen the proposed concept drawings. Let's see what Merlkir produces first and if you still don't like it you can search for further grounds to support your argument.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 04, 2007, 08:55:36 AM
I think Peter Jackson and team managed to achieve a very nice dwarf concept with Gimli; very close to what I'd imagine from reading the books.

at first I liked the designs a lot. But seeing what the other games made of it, I came to hating it. They had not a single original idea about it nad it's just too exagerrated. There is no single curved shape, everything is squared and edgy, even the axes, of which the two handed two bladed I find extremely ugly! The ugliest is the helmet of course :)
I love Gimli's jacket though, that lamellar one. Great design.


Yeah, the absense of curved shapes is the part I don't like about it, but appart from that I like the general look of it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 04, 2007, 09:06:32 AM
Yeah, the dwarves were supposed to be GOOD armorers and craftsmen.  You would expect well-refined shapes on their armor and equipment, not square corners that look like they got tired before they finished.

Orcs are supposed to have equipment that looks like it was hammered out in five minutes.  Dwarves are supposed to be craftsmen.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 04, 2007, 09:08:54 AM
that's why I love Howe's Gimli..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on May 04, 2007, 07:22:36 PM
About gems being on dwarves:
Werent dwarves usually....greedy? They take pride in their jewels and protec them. I dont think it would make much sense if they had gems on their armour and weapons, things that could be lost in the heat of battle.
Some gems isnt bad, but not too many, and probably restricted to the higher tiers who are usually so rich that they wont care about loosing a few gems.

Bear in mind that I'm not blindly backing the idea of plumes, but at the same time I'm not going to shoot down the idea before I've seen the proposed concept drawings. Let's see what Merlkir produces first and if you still don't like it you can search for further grounds to support your argument.
...Oh sure, and my concepts dont count *searches vainly for pouting smiley*
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 04, 2007, 11:24:22 PM
Historically, with the exception of a few purely ceremonial pieces, most decorative stones on weapons were not terribly valuable.  Rings and necklaces had diamonds and emeralds ... weapon hilts had onyx, quartz, and garnet - pretty rocks, but not valuable enough to make into jewelry.  After carving as many chess sets out of them as you could possibly need, you start looking for other things to decorate with rocks.  (Jade in China is that way today - it gets carved into chess sets, cheap bracelets and back scratchers ... pretty, but not worth more than a couple of bucks.  It would make good knife handles, if there was a large market for custom hunting knives in China.)

A dwarven mine seems a perfect source of unearthing tons of pretty but otherwise useless rocks.  Therefore it stands to reason that dwarves would make a lot of decorative things, including weapon and armor ornamentation, out of spare minerals.

Not suggesting this as a theme, but pointing out that it's logically feasible.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on May 05, 2007, 12:39:37 AM
Dwarves are very practical creatures. They use wood, but they do not venerate wood or nature, but in fact tend to dislike the woods, a them that is pretty obvious in all of Tolkien's writing.  That's why it's ridiculous. If they made ornamentation it would be gold or silver or gems, not feathers.

Since they live underground, it again becomes more impractical to have some helmet that sticks up very high.  Hitting their helmet on the ceiling is not goign to win them any fights.

I think 'ridiculous' is a bit far-fetched. Remember that nobody has claimed feathers would be used as the principal form of ornamentation over precious gems etc. It does, however, make a lot of sense to actually use feathers over, say, tall horns, spikes or ridges as a specific form of decoration on officers to make them stand out in battle. Horns, spikes and feathers would all distinguish an officer from the rest of his troops. However, only the feather is flexible, so it can hit a ceiling and not cause the same problem that rigid forms of adornment would. Of course, it depends on the style of the plume, but there's no reason to rule out plumes altogether if certain types of plumed helmets would cause an obstruction in the same way that a horned or spiked helmet also would. From my point of view, you can achieve a greater level of conspicuity with plumes than with spikes or horns while having that added flexibility, so I really can't see how it is impractical.

Bear in mind that I'm not blindly backing the idea of plumes, but at the same time I'm not going to shoot down the idea before I've seen the proposed concept drawings. Let's see what Merlkir produces first and if you still don't like it you can search for further grounds to support your argument.

It's because of their personalities that it's ridiculous.  Dwarves migth also pick posies and wear them in their hair into their combat, but based on their character in tolkien's work this seems exceedingly unlikely, however I would almost expect that from many of the elves.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 05, 2007, 01:29:32 AM
Armor decoration is a strange world.  All the normal color schemes and such that you would see in the rest of the society don't apply.  The conservative types (that today would only wear gray wool suits) would have no problem decorating armor in pink and green, or some equally obnoxious combination ... and as a lacing pattern on lamellar armor, it would look pretty good.  (The Japanese samurai were the worst about this, granted, but there were others... some European surcoats were just as strange.)

Speaking of the samurai, they went to absurd lengths to do carvings and paintings of flowers on their helmets.  I just thought of that, in response to the comment about flowers in their hair ... and NOBODY accused the samurai of being less masculine as a result of it (or they got killed for making such accusations).  Some REALLY tough dudes decorated their armor in flower motif, and were proud of it.

Armor decoration can be absurd.  It doesn't really have to fit with the rest of the society.

Although, as I said before, I would more think of the dwarves wearing horns on their helmets than feathers.  Still, I would expect some form of decoration, at least on the more notable ones.  The practicality of the rest of the society would likely not apply to armor decoration.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 05, 2007, 01:46:00 AM
it's the pride and prejudice what we're dealing with here ;)  I'll give you an excellent example.
I was painting some pictures for a webgame as illustration of race types. And I'm constantly facing two sides. The developer wouldn't really mind having something original, so his elves and dwarves and necromancers don't look just as everyone else's. But the players revolted and made me repaint some of the pictures to look more "classic" fantasy. "It's what people expect.." I was told..

I don't say my original ideas are better. Just that I think it's refreshing having some of those from time to time.

We've put together quite an amount of historical and logical reason, why it wouldn't be weir at all for the dwarves to wear plumes and helmet decorations. Yet, the strong argument of "it just doesn't fit their description (aka "how I imagine them all those years.") " remains ..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 05, 2007, 01:53:47 AM
Which is, needless to say, greatly limiting to the creative capabilities of concept artists...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 05, 2007, 02:14:16 AM
true. It's funny that when I posted the pictures on an art forums, most of the people said it's too cliche :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 05, 2007, 02:29:34 AM
Just a matter of which cliche you like.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: hayate666 on May 05, 2007, 07:59:19 AM
I'm just butting in this nice discussion, but I believe a dwarf should give the impression of a piece of solid rock coming alive swinging an axe at you. Their armor should look practical and though, yet keenly decorated like a delicate piece of jewelry in the right places. Decorations should have some connection to mining or life undergrond, especially for choice in materials. Colours like granite or marble, deep rock, silver and gold. The steel or iron used in their armors would need to be very mountain-grey in colouring, but not dull. Dull is for orcs. Both weapons and armor could use Dwarven runes etched along them. Even if armor decorations could look very different from the usual fashion in society, it seems likely to me that they would use items from their daily living environment, like the flower painting Japanese samurai.

I doubt a dwarf would really want or need to look taller if a unit of them would look like a wall that's brandishing axes. It seems more likely to me that they would want to look somewhat broader than they really are, since height isn't their strong point.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 05, 2007, 11:13:55 AM
Here's a link to several quotations on the dwarves from the books:

http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7975&postcount=2

Apoc made a great job putting all this together. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 05, 2007, 12:11:29 PM
good.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 05, 2007, 02:21:37 PM
Here's the link for the full thread:

http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7975#post7975

Lots of good info there. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on May 06, 2007, 09:42:12 PM
it's the pride and prejudice what we're dealing with here ;)  I'll give you an excellent example.
I was painting some pictures for a webgame as illustration of race types. And I'm constantly facing two sides. The developer wouldn't really mind having something original, so his elves and dwarves and necromancers don't look just as everyone else's. But the players revolted and made me repaint some of the pictures to look more "classic" fantasy. "It's what people expect.." I was told..

I don't say my original ideas are better. Just that I think it's refreshing having some of those from time to time.

We've put together quite an amount of historical and logical reason, why it wouldn't be weir at all for the dwarves to wear plumes and helmet decorations. Yet, the strong argument of "it just doesn't fit their description (aka "how I imagine them all those years.") " remains ..

If this were 'random tolkienesque fantasy game number 32' I would agree.  But I would think dwarves in such a game would be pretty lame.  But, these 'cliches' all come from Tolkien's actual work.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 06, 2007, 10:04:48 PM
No, the point is in the gaps in Tolkien's work.  Unlike the 19th century (and there about) Russian writers (i.e. "War and Peace"), Tolkien did not describe EVERY detail of EVERY object in his world.  Even being 100% accurate to his books, you could still have some variation in concept.

Now, many of these gaps have been filled in by random fantasy games/writers/whatever since then.  This has created a block of stereotypical fantasy ideas, originally drawn (or ripped) from Tolkien but evolved for some time.  Question is, do they represent Tolkien?  Do they mis-represent him?  Are they the only possible interpretation, or are other concepts equally valid, based on the original source?

Now, Merlkir has been pushing that definition.  Some of his stuff, while valid according to Tolkien (or at least "not invalid") and logically feasible, goes against the block of common stereotypes.  Question here is, "Do we want to go there?" 

I don't have an answer, but I do understand the question.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 07, 2007, 02:10:49 AM
Sorrry I haven't posted the sketches yet. I've kinda realized some of them were...a bit silly. Some new ideas popped in my head. Since the new release is coming close, I'll be woking on some stuff that should be done before that happens so AW can put it in. Then I'll jump right back on the dwarves as much as my exams let me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on May 07, 2007, 09:22:02 AM
No, the point is in the gaps in Tolkien's work.  Unlike the 19th century (and there about) Russian writers (i.e. "War and Peace"), Tolkien did not describe EVERY detail of EVERY object in his world.  Even being 100% accurate to his books, you could still have some variation in concept.

Now, many of these gaps have been filled in by random fantasy games/writers/whatever since then.  This has created a block of stereotypical fantasy ideas, originally drawn (or ripped) from Tolkien but evolved for some time.  Question is, do they represent Tolkien?  Do they mis-represent him?  Are they the only possible interpretation, or are other concepts equally valid, based on the original source?

Now, Merlkir has been pushing that definition.  Some of his stuff, while valid according to Tolkien (or at least "not invalid") and logically feasible, goes against the block of common stereotypes.  Question here is, "Do we want to go there?" 

I don't have an answer, but I do understand the question.


Yeah, but what I am trying to say, my horseback halberd wielding friend, is that they are not 'stereotypes' at all, but actual descriptions of character.

I have seen some wonderfully ridiculous arguments in this mod with some people taking the stance "If it's not in the books it doesn't exist." even when it completely defies logic.

However, what is in the books is not the exact detail of every single dwarf's outfit, but an in-depth description of their character. They value the things of the earth. Metal, gems. They value pearls highly. They are not lovers of nature or the outdoors. 

We know (at least at times) they wore hideous war masks inlaid with gold and gems.

Embellishment is one thing, but coming up with things that are pretty much outright stated in the books as being wrong is another....
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 08, 2007, 12:11:15 PM
my dwarven artwork for another game ;)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Trpaslici.jpg)

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 08, 2007, 12:34:22 PM
Wow! :) You're getting better by the day. I love the light/shadow work.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Pellidon on May 08, 2007, 03:27:09 PM
They are not lovers of nature or the outdoors.

Embellishment is one thing, but coming up with things that are pretty much outright stated in the books as being wrong is another....
oh sweet, that means plumes would work perfectly. it's not outright stated that the dwarves didn't wear plumes and since they hate nature, it wouldn't be a stretch that as soon as they see a bird they will kill it. then, realizing that its feathers look nice, they'll put them on their helmet, because they're clearly not averse to nice looking things based on their love of gems.

on another note, since tolkien used norse mythology and culture in his books, it would make sense that the weapons and armor of lotr would be based off of those of norsemen. they rarely ornamented their helmets (contrary to the belief that they all had horns or wings on their helmets) making them functional more than anything else. average dwarven soldiers should probably go for functional and basically un-ornamented helmets, but higher ranked leaders should have some sort of decoration, (i.e. eye protectors, nose guards, boar shaped crests, spikes, etc.) most likely increasing in complexity based on status.

edit: 15 kudos tokens to merlkir for a pretty intense drawing, very norse indeed, with that bearded axe and style of helmet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on May 08, 2007, 03:48:22 PM
They are not lovers of nature or the outdoors.

Embellishment is one thing, but coming up with things that are pretty much outright stated in the books as being wrong is another....
oh sweet, that means plumes would work perfectly. it's not outright stated that the dwarves didn't wear plumes and since they hate nature, it wouldn't be a stretch that as soon as they see a bird they will kill it. then, realizing that its feathers look nice, they'll put them on their helmet, because they're clearly not averse to nice looking things based on their love of gems.

on another note, since tolkien used norse mythology and culture in his books, it would make sense that the weapons and armor of lotr would be based off of those of norsemen. they rarely ornamented their helmets (contrary to the belief that they all had horns or wings on their helmets) making them functional more than anything else. average dwarven soldiers should probably go for functional and basically un-ornamented helmets, but higher ranked leaders should have some sort of decoration, (i.e. eye protectors, nose guards, boar shaped crests, spikes, etc.) most likely increasing in complexity based on status.

edit: 15 kudos tokens to merlkir for a pretty intense drawing, very norse indeed, with that bearded axe and style of helmet.

Eh, most of the equipment designs are very nonnorse. The places he borrows from 'norse' mythology (and it is a pretty big stretch to call it norse), are mostly not the equipment.

As for the first part of your comment I won't bother responding to its ridiculousness.

So, you are wrong on both counts.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Pellidon on May 08, 2007, 05:14:41 PM
well you seem to love logic so much that i figured i'd give a logical explanation of why dwarves would wear plumes. would you rather have me say "i like plumes, they're nice, you should use them"? i gave a perfectly reasonable argument, i don't understand why you have to say my idea was ridiculous and totally ignore it. at least have the courtesy to treat me decently. i mean, i could've said that you're assumption that dwarves would never wear certain things based on their characteristic of loving things of the earth and not nature was moronic, but you're entitled to an opinion. i don't think it's moronic, i just don't think it's necessarily true.

i guess you're right about the nordic thing, i exaggerated on that i suppose. but my idea still stands, i think helmets and armor in general in tolkien seem to have an almost nordic style to them. that's the impression i get based on the fact that no plate armor was used among other things.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 08, 2007, 07:37:55 PM
Yeah, that looks nice. I like the muted shades.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on May 09, 2007, 04:40:15 PM
my dwarven artwork for another game ;)

What other game?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 10, 2007, 01:34:53 AM
my dwarven artwork for another game ;)

What other game?

czech strategic webgame called Wizards and Warriors.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: averyware on May 11, 2007, 09:40:54 AM
First off i have to say im sorry for not being on the last few weeks, i ran into some personal things right after saying id work with you guys. well heres some of the drawings i pulled together from the guys and myself. my friend who took the pictures did his best at taking the pics. these are just a ton of sketches.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/1.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/2.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/3.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/4.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/5.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/6.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/7.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/8.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/9.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/10.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/11.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/MOD/12.gif)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 11, 2007, 12:19:57 PM
I like some of the ramshackle orc helmets that look like they are made from various bits. I like the idea of that, its similar to some concepts stefano came up with. Some of the other stuff is too high fantasy imo but its still nice work.  I think there are two non-orc horned helms in this version so horns might be reaching the saturation point.  I like horns, but can only take so much of them.  :lol: Nice stuff though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: averyware on May 11, 2007, 09:08:57 PM
yeah i totally agree man i think the drawings dont really have a history its like " blah, a hero was born with a +3 axe and armor from the gods"

its unreal ive already told the guys this and they are working on more art now.

theart comes from James Cheers, Cody Dutch, and myself.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 12, 2007, 01:29:25 AM
I liked some of those, the orc helmets made from various pieces to name one. As you say, it's a bit too stylized. And we don't have any undead ;)

Just let them look over the concept art we already have, look at the osprey pics we have for inspiration, I'll find a more detailed description of the races...

I think this could work fine :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on May 12, 2007, 08:16:37 AM
I like some of the ramshackle orc helmets that look like they are made from various bits. I like the idea of that, its similar to some concepts stefano came up with. Some of the other stuff is too high fantasy imo but its still nice work.  I think there are two non-orc horned helms in this version so horns might be reaching the saturation point.  I like horns, but can only take so much of them.  :lol: Nice stuff though.
great minds think alike... ;) after scanning through them, the only thing I really thought fit our current design direction was those helmets as well... I may take a shot at modelling them since I have no 'net at home to distract me from my duties ... :(
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 12, 2007, 09:57:36 AM
I like the general concept of the helmets but Im not sure If I like those specific ones. Ramshackle orc helmets are a good general idea though. I think once they come up with the designs, they are going to handle the modelling and texturing for this stuff though.

Ill try and think of something else we need.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: averyware on May 15, 2007, 02:00:03 PM
SO last night i was modeling this dwarf for a D&D thing im doning with some friends (Mostly im just making our characters real models) and i thought if we needed a base dwarf model it sure can be used (once the bone scaling is fixed) also AW thats a great helm ill start it today is there anyway some one can send me a pre-made helm so i get the scale right.

as you can see from the model he has armor and stuff but thats just for my own char.



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/Stormforge1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/Stormforge8.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v700/kain13/Stormforge3.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 15, 2007, 02:31:43 PM
Yeah, that looks really great. Nice one. Once M&B supports it, we certainly could use a dwarf.

Ill get together some sample helms and email them over tonight.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: averyware on May 15, 2007, 03:52:29 PM
thanx man, the human is a friends model and is just for ref with scale.

SO i want to ask some questions about how the models are set up. AW you said that the model loses the hair model when the helm is put on, why not then model hair in the helm model?

if you give me some of the rohan helms ill try and make some hair coming out of the back. what do you think?

or would it be to hard to make a brown haired unit have a brown hair helm?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 15, 2007, 08:19:21 PM
That's a nice model averyware. The dwarf's head looks a bit small to me, but overall it looks good.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: averyware on May 15, 2007, 09:18:55 PM
i thought that too but i read this book ( a little something called D&D)

i know before anyone jumps on my ass its not Lotr but it does give details. like their arms and legs being bigger and longer allowing them to carry normal size weapons, unlike a hobbit.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 15, 2007, 09:31:22 PM
DaBlade is right ... although the general rescale of arms and legs is fine for a dwarf, the head looks a bit too small for the apparent body weight.  If you consider that the dwarves were supposed to be somewhat strong, then the head and especially neck look much too light for such a stocky body.  He could probably use a little more mass through the shoulders, too - they were known for being miners, after all.

Not bad ... but since this is "concept art", I might as well throw in all the concepts I can think of.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 16, 2007, 05:51:11 AM
thanx man, the human is a friends model and is just for ref with scale.

SO i want to ask some questions about how the models are set up. AW you said that the model loses the hair model when the helm is put on, why not then model hair in the helm model?

if you give me some of the rohan helms ill try and make some hair coming out of the back. what do you think?

or would it be to hard to make a brown haired unit have a brown hair helm?

Yeah, I think this idea has some problems.   

-For one the beard couldnt be made to match the helmet hair so youd have red bearded men with blonde hair, etc.   This is more a problem with diverse factions like Rohan (red, blonde, brown hair and beards) than it is for say for the easterlings and harad (all black hair and beards).

-Youd have an issue if you tried to save polys by using the alpha to make the hair details stand out as you cant multi-mesh helms with different materials. So you can use an alpha trick on the hair, which I think vanilla does, OR have a shiny helmet, not both.  You could model the hair 100% but then you are just amping up the polys.  Im sure there is a technical term for this alpha trick but I dont know how to describe it. Its when a white alpha will display that part of the texture and a black alpha keeps that part of the texture invisible.  So you can make detailed jagged edges without spending polys.   You could use this trick if the helm was non-metallic and didnt need the shine shader though. Or if it was supposed to be totally dull and unreflective for some other reason.

I thought I read that some m&b mod somewhere was modelling the hair under the helm though, I just dont know how it worked out. It was probably for a faction with a limited hair color range.

In general the easiest solution is just to make sure the back of the head is covered to avoid exposing the baldness but a hair/w helmet experiment might be interesting.  I just dont have any reference to know if it would look good.  It wouldnt work for rohan though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 16, 2007, 07:09:25 AM
we tried to have hair modelled as a part of armor for 300 mod. But it didn't work very well..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: averyware on May 16, 2007, 11:11:03 AM
that make since to me or thanx for the helms ill jump on understanding the mod a little more.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 19, 2007, 03:02:47 PM
I've been looking at this picture by A.McBride (who died recently :() and began to realize that the idea of Gondorian marines in sort of greek/macedonian leather cuirasses seems great to me :D
Anyway, possible source of inspiration for the corsairs. (There's probably no way to implement Yoshi's awesome ship battle system in TLD, but still...marines anyone? :))

(http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/mcbride/pirates.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 19, 2007, 08:10:56 PM
Yeah, I can see some Hellenic influence on some of those concepts, but (even late) bronze age references in Tolkien's world feel a bit out of place to me. Having said that, those Gondorian marines (the guys in black outfit) would make cool Corsair units IMHO.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 20, 2007, 12:22:28 PM
Yeah, they would. Good gondorian navy guys too though.

I certainly wouldnt put yoshi's naval stuff in any time soon but it might be fun eventually.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 20, 2007, 01:57:30 PM
Yeah, it sure would ;) I'm still thinking about how the moving props thingie could be used. A guy at taleworlds seems to have got a catapult to fire projectiles...In my mind I'm seeing the player commanding a battering ram group (as the ship in pirates) or a siege tower, getting through a tough arrow fire. Maybe even flaming projectiles from ballistas on the walls. Then the tower reaches the wall, one other falls down, but from the first one...SCENE CHANGE to classic battle one - The player and his brave bunch jumps out, fights the defenders and eventually takes the wall!
Phmmfff...towers? towers? MUMAKS! :) Ride your own mumak to the wall and smack the gate with its head! trample little riders with your huge feet! spurt spurt, the blood flows in rivers!




....



uhm. Sorry, guys, one can dream, huh? sieges? won't ever happen in TLD :D (;))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 21, 2007, 07:31:52 AM
this is hot...

(http://raia.rajce.idnes.cz/skreti_trolli_zbroj_inspirace_motivy/images/dc-621c.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on May 21, 2007, 06:26:18 PM
Agreed, VERY  :o but I dislike the cheekplates and the cross on the helmet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 22, 2007, 12:50:50 AM
taking about hot helmets ;)

(http://tonda7773.rajce.idnes.cz/cas_vlku/images/x_(123).jpg)
(http://tonda7773.rajce.idnes.cz/cas_vlku/images/x_(122).jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 22, 2007, 08:13:20 AM
They both look nice. The earlier bronze looking one reminds me of a modified dunnish helmet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on May 22, 2007, 08:52:17 AM
That helemt and the lamellar armor both look great.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on May 23, 2007, 12:18:47 PM
Nice dwarf model! Thank you from a TLD player!

That's a nice model averyware. The dwarf's head looks a bit small to me, but overall it looks good.

Second that. I can't see why a LOTR dwarf head should be any smaller than human.
If anything, it could be bigger.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 23, 2007, 01:52:47 PM
Nice dwarf model! Thank you from a TLD player!

That's a nice model averyware. The dwarf's head looks a bit small to me, but overall it looks good.

Second that. I can't see why a LOTR dwarf head should be any smaller than human.
If anything, it could be bigger.


Should probably be the same size as any human head. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 28, 2007, 01:13:35 PM
this is surprisingly nice. For a LARP piece :)

(http://tuatha.club.fr/Protections/Ithilien-Ranger-1.jpg)

http://tuatha.club.fr/En.marge/chalet1.jpg (http://tuatha.club.fr/En.marge/chalet1.jpg)
http://tuatha.club.fr/En.marge/Route-du-col2.jpg (http://tuatha.club.fr/En.marge/Route-du-col2.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on May 29, 2007, 05:29:12 PM
Wow....it just screams out "squire" or "guardsman" to me. I beg of you to get rid of that ugly leather coat-thing and replace it with that or maybe something that looks heavier.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 29, 2007, 06:21:38 PM
That leather tabbard would look good over a coat of maille too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on June 17, 2007, 02:29:02 AM
this is cute! :) I'm happy the orcs now use similar bascinets..

(http://pics.livejournal.com/ksurrr/pic/000e25e9)

if the picture doesn't show, click here:

http://pics.livejournal.com/ksurrr/pic/000e25e9 (http://pics.livejournal.com/ksurrr/pic/000e25e9)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on June 25, 2007, 06:56:56 PM
here's my quick drawing of Meduseld (Royal) Guards giving these unique troops a little different feel. at the moment your reward for achieving a highest are 5 awesome but quite common looking Rohan King's guard units. as my new scanner refused to work, this is a bad quality digi pic, sorry people.

the colors i envision for them are gold and black, with black or green tunic undercoat. dark mail, black leather and golden scales and elements on greaves, collar and vambraces.

(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8796/p6260001nc6.th.jpg) (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p6260001nc6.jpg)

plus an idea for a cool helmet, some changes photoshopped by me to give it more of a resemblance to Rohan culture of TLD. could be an award type of thing. (original helmet made by McFarlane Toys for Pallantides)

(http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1853/helmet1de7.th.jpg) (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helmet1de7.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stratusfear on June 26, 2007, 02:54:21 PM
Woah i really like that rohan helm! that looks so cool!!  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bobsters35 on June 27, 2007, 11:40:40 PM
Very nice artwork :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on June 28, 2007, 09:10:24 AM
yup :) not bad, not bad. I would add two straps going from the center of the upper torso piece to the hips..would break the big chest area a bit..

edit: or a sort of a smaller breast plate thingie attached to the belt and the upper piece.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on June 28, 2007, 09:14:32 AM
yup :) not bad, not bad. I would add two straps going from the center of the upper torso piece to the hips..would break the big chest area a bit..

edit: or a sort of a smaller breast plate thingie attached to the belt and the upper piece.

thanks merl, appreciate that. and yeah, after i put it up i noticed that the scale is quite monotonous. i think going with another chest piece on top would be the ticket here. his mail was really an afterthought to the helmet  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stratusfear on June 28, 2007, 12:54:01 PM
I was reading about you guys looking to add dwarfs to the mod which is a great idea in my humble opinion! i love dwarfs!!
thought I'd try and help with some dwarfs in heavy plate armour  ;)
http://www.blacklibrary.com/images/merchandise_medium/dwarf.jpg
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Careers/images/Ironbreaker01n.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Ironbreaker01.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Ironbreaker01n.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Ironbreaker05.jpg
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Ironbreaker03.jpg

by the way these are just ideas for helms etc i realise these are drawn in the fashion of warhammer/warcraft and not lotr but dwarfs arnt shown in full battle gear in the film so i was looking for ideas. hope this helps  :green:


Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on June 28, 2007, 01:19:49 PM
I like Merlkir's concepts much better than those. And yes, Gimli was in full battle gear in the films. And no, this mod is not about the films.

You can read some quotations from Tolkien's works on the Dwarves (and other factions and races) here:

http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/showthread.php?t=872
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stratusfear on June 28, 2007, 02:27:55 PM
No Gimli was not in full battle gear he just had a battle axe a helm and some light mail. Hence why he borrowed heavy mail from the armoury in Helm's deep battle. Anyway thanks for the link, and yeah i agree melkir's concepts are much better i was mainly posting those to give him some ideas.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stratusfear on June 28, 2007, 02:37:37 PM
that is a good site, i see what you mean about the mod being true to the books not film:
'…and Gimli needed no coat of rings, even if one had been found to match his stature, for there was no hauberk in the hoards of Edoras of better make than his short corslet forged beneath the Mountain in the North.’

*’The Two Towers: The King of the Golden Hall’, p. 150.
which contradicts what you see in the film cos he's trying to find some mail to fit him.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on June 28, 2007, 02:42:50 PM
that is a good site, i see what you mean about the mod being true to the books not film:
'…and Gimli needed no coat of rings, even if one had been found to match his stature, for there was no hauberk in the hoards of Edoras of better make than his short corslet forged beneath the Mountain in the North.’

The biggest surprise to me in this (which I have thought of before but not mentioned) is that there is no ringmail in the mod....

In fact, lots of armor seemed to be ringmail....

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on June 28, 2007, 02:49:57 PM
I've made a ringmail once (used a ringmail photo for the texture), but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference due to texture resolution. :P

Now changing subject... check this out, pretty huh?

http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=96903
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stratusfear on June 28, 2007, 03:30:59 PM
Wow did you make design that? i was a great fan of the origonal neverwinter nights and i worked a bit making mods for that, mind you the textures never looked THAT good  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on June 28, 2007, 03:41:20 PM
I've made a ringmail once (used a ringmail photo for the texture), but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference due to texture resolution. :P

Now changing subject... check this out, pretty huh?

http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=96903

Quite nice.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on June 28, 2007, 03:54:03 PM
The biggest surprise to me in this (which I have thought of before but not mentioned) is that there is no ringmail in the mod....

In fact, lots of armor seemed to be ringmail....

I thought ringmail was chainmail.
Since chainmail is really made of thousands of small rings...

Anyway...here's a discussion on the matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringmail

Except if you mean a thing like such:
(http://www.arador.com/articles/chain2.jpg)

Though the article suggests washers sewn to a cloth were not used in the middle ages...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on June 28, 2007, 04:07:25 PM
Wow did you make design that? i was a great fan of the origonal neverwinter nights and i worked a bit making mods for that, mind you the textures never looked THAT good  :green:

That's not my work, it's just something I found :)

Triglav, looks like you're right about what I was calling ringmail being chainmail. Thanks :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on June 28, 2007, 04:11:39 PM
The biggest surprise to me in this (which I have thought of before but not mentioned) is that there is no ringmail in the mod....

In fact, lots of armor seemed to be ringmail....

I thought ringmail was chainmail.
Since chainmail is really made of thousands of small rings...

Anyway...here's a discussion on the matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringmail

Except if you mean a thing like such:
(http://www.arador.com/articles/chain2.jpg)

Though the article suggests washers sewn to a cloth were not used in the middle ages...

Chain links aren't rings.

As for the ring 'mail' being off...as usual, who CARES? Don't turn into a little damien on me  ::) It's irrelevant to my point.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on June 28, 2007, 04:17:10 PM
Yeah, this is one of the those topics.  I vaguely remember ring armor versus chain being one of those "do balrogs have wings" debates that devolve into deathmatches.  In my mind (and I dont claim to research anything I say) I think of ring mail as a sort of brigandine. Some material with big rings stapled to it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on June 28, 2007, 04:24:59 PM
It does bring up a point I meant to raise before. The rohirrim kinda bother me because they just seem too heavily armored and uniform.

It is just an impression but I just did not get that from the books, really.

I always thought of them as having a more ragtag but still effective feel - with the leaders and such having much better equipment. I am not sure how to change them exactly, though, to be honest. Maybe have them have better armor at lower levels but more chance of poorer or at least different armor at higher levels aside from the top tier which is the only group I would think of as being really uniform....

Some of them having a coat of rings might be a good start, though ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on June 28, 2007, 10:35:03 PM
Well, using proper historical terms would help define the armor thing.  "Maille" (English version "mail") refers to interlocking rings.  Generally these rings were hammer welded or riveted, sometimes alternating with solid punched rings.  The term "chainmail" was adopted much later (by historians, not fighters), to differentiate a solid coat of mail from "combined mail" - chain armor between sections of solid plates or bands, which would later evolve into the European partial plate armors.

Loose-chain armors like Japanese kusari also existed in Europe, under various names at different times... "Norman maille", "Italian maille" .... They could be what some have referred to as "ring mail".  Looking at them, they look more like some form of net than a coat of mail.

There are also a number of historical references to chain armors that are still a mystery.  Documents from the Crusades occasionally refer to "Islamic mail" or "Muslim mail" - and nobody today has any clue what they were talking about.

Examples of what was believed to be "ring armor" have been found - these being a form of cheap brigandine by sewing or lacing metal rings to cloth or leather, or to each other.  Quite a few examples of this have been found in Eastern Europe, but since the cloth had decayed, still little is known about the exact construction.

A few Asiatic armors used such metal rings connected to each other by smaller metal rings or wire, getting them back closer in design to Japanese kusari than anything else, but using greatly enlarged rings on the flat surfaces.   Only a few examples of such have been found, never in good condition, so most of what is known of these armors is based on badly drawn Persian art.

--------------------------------------------

I think I recall an orc ring armor in the game (when I was doing the RCM stats... don't recall if it was Mordor or Isengard), but it looked kind of light (like having substantial gaps between the rings), so I wrote it up as such.  Don't know who did the texture, but it looked pretty good.

I assumed the other chain armors to be standard European 4:1 pattern maille, in various weights or ring density (i.e. size of ring compared to weight of wire used).  That seemed to be what they looked like.

That said, none of us have any idea of what Tolkien was thinking of, or if he was just using the terms without really doing the engineering.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on June 29, 2007, 10:30:39 AM
Here's an attempt on ring mail from Czech Republic: (Ron knows this from the HW thread ;))

(http://moje.ifoto.eu/albums/Wothan05/20050730-165035.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on June 29, 2007, 05:00:58 PM
Again, yeah, that's "ring armor", a form of (cheap) brigandine ... not really "maille" in the sense that they are not connected by much of anything.

And I'll repeat my comments from the HW board, for any who missed them - the modern washers have the wrong cross section for historical ring armors.  And they're galvanized.  It makes them look kind of funny.

That's about what one orc armor in the game looks like.  It's labeled as "ring" something ... I forget what.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on June 30, 2007, 02:07:26 AM
on the dwarves concept art from before: I know that (WHO right?), I've seen it and I stole everything I thought I could use. So yeah, there are some elements that I like. No heavy plate though :)

I don't really have time for painting/drawing right now. I thought I will have a free summer, but I was kinda forced to have a summer job (yeah, it was supposed to be two weeks and it became two months :(), so I have little time to do anything. In spite of that I've drawn some dunlendings at work! :D my boss was out somewhere and I had nothing to do. It was kinda weird to cover the paper everytime someone went in the room and pretend I'm working ;)
I'll scan it and post today. If I manage to find the scanner ;) It's a bit of a mess as I just moved home from college, two computers and shit.
It's not really usable in the mod, maybe just as a background or something ;) just practising. I'll move to the dwarves at some point( as they might become pretty much possible with the new MaB version..). my goal is to improve the (now lacking) variety of items for the factions that shouldn't look all uniform. (dunnish, I have some cool ideas for orc helms, maybe even some armors and other stuff for the elves, as I said before, I want to work heavily on corsairs and haradrim..)

/UPDATE
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 02, 2007, 11:30:58 AM
Doodles! :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/BerserkerDoodle.jpg)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Legendary%20helmet.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 02, 2007, 12:45:37 PM
Wow, those look good! There's stuff I like and stuff I don't like, I'll tell you about it later.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 02, 2007, 01:04:20 PM
Yeah, real nice ones. Couple of interesting helms.  I like the decapitated head.  :lol:

Some orc helm ideas would be good too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 02, 2007, 01:24:17 PM
It will really be nice to have a few dwarves running around when .850 comes out. Not to mention trolls ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 05:10:40 AM
so. I'm going orcs. First off, I would suggest we scavenge everything from the movies we can. In a very stealthy way so noone will notice :) Cause I really liked some orc stuff they made, which is here: (sort of a list so I have an inspiration pool to go to when sketching) Not all of them are even from the movies..

http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/9522.jpg (http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/9522.jpg)
http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/sam.jpg (http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/sam.jpg)
http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/frodo.jpg[url]
[url]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_trapjaw.jpg]
[url]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_trapjaw.jpg]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/frodo.jpg[url]
[url]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_trapjaw.jpg]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_trapjaw.jpg]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/frodo.jpg[url]
[url]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_trapjaw.jpg]
[url]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_trapjaw.jpg]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/frodo.jpg[url]
[url]http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_trapjaw.jpg (http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/frodo.jpg[url=http://[url=http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_trapjaw.jpg)
http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_crowfaced.jpg (http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_crowfaced.jpg)
http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_squinter.jpg (http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_squinter.jpg)
http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_iron.jpg (http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/helm_iron.jpg)
http://z.about.com/d/actionfigures/1/0/L/w/lotrs1-9501th.jpg (http://z.about.com/d/actionfigures/1/0/L/w/lotrs1-9501th.jpg)
http://shop.gamesnstuff.com/images/Orc%20helm.jpg (http://shop.gamesnstuff.com/images/Orc%20helm.jpg)
http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/Orchelmet.jpg (http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/Orchelmet.jpg)
http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/730488280.jpg (http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/730488280.jpg)
http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/hjelm1.jpg (http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/hjelm1.jpg)
http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/Berserk_Helmet_2.jpg (http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/Berserk_Helmet_2.jpg)
http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/568b.jpg (http://www.fxtailor.dk/albums/userpics/568b.jpg)
http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2763.jpg (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2763.jpg)
http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2761.jpg (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2761.jpg)
http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2760.jpg (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2760.jpg)
http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2759.jpg (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2759.jpg)
http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2757.jpg (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2757.jpg)
http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2756.jpg (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/2756.jpg)

ok. that's those.
I also love how Howe paints and draws orcs. He and Lee portrait them with great variety, yet they maintain to keep some real historical stuff in the designs. If we let the plate out that is.

(http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/data/media/21/000-Servants-of-Sauron-port.jpg)
(http://img-fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/images/orcs_ald.jpg)

Lee has the orcs quite different. More human like, less dirty nasty animals. I see clear roman, german influence in the gear, which I like..

(http://www.aumania.it/fa/lee/019.jpg)
(http://www.aumania.it/fa/lee/098.jpg)
(http://www.aumania.it/fa/lee/108.jpg)

(really, some of those scream: Late roman infantry, or romanized infantry..)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 05:31:26 AM
also by accident I stumbled upon this page ;))

this is just..nice :) I think we have some like that for Dunlanders right now.

(http://www.hightowercrafts.com/h-av-2.jpg)
Easterlings?
(http://www.hightowercrafts.com/h-mon.jpg)
(http://www.hightowercrafts.com/helm-ram.jpg)
(http://www.hightowercrafts.com/h-plume.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 05, 2007, 06:39:04 AM
Yeah, nice helms :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 05, 2007, 06:46:07 AM
I like the black one with the horns turned down.  Unique design.  Generally, helmets of the ancient world had the horns turned up, to make the wearer look taller.  Few people thought to put junk out to the side (unless you count the "earguards" on Japanese helmets - but even they're not as cool as actual horns).

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 06:52:45 AM
I like the black one with the horns turned down. 

it's quite common in fantasy illustration. This one is a nice example of what I'd wanted though :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 05, 2007, 09:36:58 AM
Wow, flashback with that first Orc helmet. (http://www.reelcollectibles.co.nz/images/lotr_helms/9522.jpg)

Did anyone used to watch Elidor? British Kid's fantasy programme on in 1995.
There was a villian in that called 'the sniffer' that had a helmet exactly like that. Best, most horrific character ever.
Edit: Found a picture! (http://www.classickidstv.co.uk/wiki/Image:Elidor_10.jpg)

Anyway, nostalgia over, I like the orc stuff a lot. Perhaps when skeletons are fully working you could do some hunched orcs/moria goblins.
The short archer next to the roman orc is especially cool, and Orcs definitely need some more love.  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 09:47:44 AM
heh, nice :) was the show any good? not many fantasy shows/movies nowadays..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 05, 2007, 09:53:50 AM
From what I remember it was brilliant.
I remember the sniffer most though. The 'Lead Warrior' (Big Evil Dude) Led him round on a chain like a dog, and it used to hunt the children down by smell.

The fact that I remembered what the helmet looked like 12 years later is testament to how awesome (and scary) the character was.  :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 09:55:02 AM
Pity I can't find it on rapidshare, torrent or anywhere else for a download. TV shows that old are hard to find.

Anyway, to justify this horrible OT, I'll find and scan my latest doodle from work ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on July 05, 2007, 09:58:02 AM
Wow, I support almost all of your suggestions.
Making movie orc helms would certainly make my life easier  :lol:
I like those other helmets too, but if you ask me the first two helmets should be easterling, and the last two would be haradrim. The horned one seems...harad-like to me with their exotic animals and whatnot. I think it would look awesome on a harad-captain or the chief, which currently looks no different than a common cavalryman.

btw, what happened to the original black-serpent troop armourset? I only see lieutenants wearing them, the black serpents now look like veteran cav to me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 10:14:05 AM
Wow, I support almost all of your suggestions.
Making movie orc helms would certainly make my life easier  :lol:
I like those other helmets too, but if you ask me the first two helmets should be easterling, and the last two would be haradrim. The horned one seems...harad-like to me with their exotic animals and whatnot. I think it would look awesome on a harad-captain or the chief, which currently looks no different than a common cavalryman.

btw, what happened to the original black-serpent troop armourset? I only see lieutenants wearing them, the black serpents now look like veteran cav to me.

well, Haradrim kinda abandoned the old golden armor, since it isn't that good and only high rank cavalry wears it I think. We'll (means I design it and Blade will recreate it into a beautiful texture. ) have to make some variations to their armor and troops in general. Haradrim (for a faction that should be composed from many tribes and different cultures) are still awfully uniform :(

I thought easterlings for the horned one. Cause easterlings worship bulls (or something like that ;))..


Anyway, here's my first attempt on orcs! yay for work-doodles :) I know he's clean and clear, but I just couldn't make him any dirtier, he was just so cute :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Uruk%20of%20Mordor.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 12:38:49 PM
another idea. Does anyone have a screenshot of the fountain guard guys you can get from Denethor as a reward? I wonder what they use for armor.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 05, 2007, 12:51:01 PM
Merlkir, that's a great draw you have there, and I like the concept too ;)

I'd like to see some leopard and lion skins on the Haradrin and maybe a lion helm.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 12:56:45 PM
I'd like to see some leopard and lion skins on the Haradrin and maybe a lion helm.

oh, god, you got me totally psyched about that one! :) I've just brought the tablet of my room. I'll play TLD a bit to get the feeling and then...it's big cat time ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 03:21:37 PM
I was again going through Howe's stuff and found this Variag.

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Variags-portfolio.jpg)

it is maybe too much similar to his uruk design, but it gave me an idea about a cool helm:

(http://www.amarcord.be/georgia/jpg/Kipchakwarrior02.jpg),
(http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/helm-kip.gif)

not the best of pictures, but I'm sure you've all seen it at least once. Kipchak helmet. I've always found the still metal face creepy. I think it would very much fit the cataphracts..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 05, 2007, 04:06:46 PM
Yeah, that orc helm sketch is interesting. Nice sketch overall.

I have some unusual but good concepts on my HD Ill send over and see if you can make something out of them.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 06, 2007, 12:00:32 AM
Yeah, that orc helm sketch is interesting. Nice sketch overall.

I have some unusual but good concepts on my HD Ill send over and see if you can make something out of them.

sure, do send them :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on July 06, 2007, 12:40:12 AM
Wow, I support almost all of your suggestions.
Making movie orc helms would certainly make my life easier  :lol:
I like those other helmets too, but if you ask me the first two helmets should be easterling, and the last two would be haradrim. The horned one seems...harad-like to me with their exotic animals and whatnot. I think it would look awesome on a harad-captain or the chief, which currently looks no different than a common cavalryman.

btw, what happened to the original black-serpent troop armourset? I only see lieutenants wearing them, the black serpents now look like veteran cav to me.

well, Haradrim kinda abandoned the old golden armor, since it isn't that good and only high rank cavalry wears it I think. We'll (means I design it and Blade will recreate it into a beautiful texture. ) have to make some variations to their armor and troops in general. Haradrim (for a faction that should be composed from many tribes and different cultures) are still awfully uniform :(

I thought easterlings for the horned one. Cause easterlings worship bulls (or something like that ;))..


Anyway, here's my first attempt on orcs! yay for work-doodles :) I know he's clean and clear, but I just couldn't make him any dirtier, he was just so cute :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Uruk%20of%20Mordor.jpg)

MATE!! That drawing is sweet.  How long did it take to draw all the loops in the armour?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 06, 2007, 12:54:55 AM
it doesn't take nearly that long as people tend to think. This whole drawing took me about half an hour.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 06, 2007, 07:19:43 AM
How are these?

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet.jpg)

Don't worry if they don't fit, I wanted to test out some ideas for texturing metal.

Also, some of the goblins from labyrinth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth_%28film%29) were fun, if cartoony.  :P

http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbunif5.gif (http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbunif5.gif)
http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbunif3.gif (http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbunif3.gif)
http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbunif1.gif (http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbunif1.gif)
http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbent1.gif (http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbent1.gif)
http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbscrmp1.gif (http://www.worldoffroud.com/www/films/laby/images/lbscrmp1.gif)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 06, 2007, 07:31:35 AM
I feel really REALLY sorry for not having a drooling smiley.

THOSE ARE FANTASTIC! 



(so...are you like...gonna give us those? :))


From the labyrinth goblins I like the first and the last one :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 06, 2007, 07:33:59 AM
man, this is like totally great! :D

Like you wake up in the morning and find out Christmas was moved to July ;) :D

I really like those.







Damn. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 06, 2007, 07:40:28 AM
There's stuff I like and stuff I don't like, I'll tell you about it later.

so...Blade, any thoughts yet? :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 06, 2007, 08:09:42 AM
There's stuff I like and stuff I don't like, I'll tell you about it later.

so...Blade, any thoughts yet? :)

Yeah, I almost forgot about it :P

I don't like the idea of a berseker wearing a helm, kinda goes against the what the berseker spirit should be (fighting without armor and all). But the helm looks interesting, although I get mixed feelings about it. I think it could make a good Corsair helm, if you changed the axis of the crest 90 degrees, because it kinda looks like a fish/something from the sea thingy.

I love the sword design, it just looks great :)

I really can't comment the dunnish madman helm; we'd need a view from another angle.

I also get mixed feelings about that Esterling helm, but I think it could get interesting if you work on it some more.

The dwarven helm looks great, I love the face mask design. But I don't like the bat (?) thingy and I'm not sure about the horns (although they look cool). I think it would look good if it had some layers of studded leather covering the back of the neck, over the mail (just an idea).

Well, there you go :)
******************

Ursca, those look great! :D Can we have those in the mod?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 06, 2007, 09:13:58 AM
Thanks guys. I appreciate it. Shall I send them to AW when they're all finished up?

I made your Uruk helm too, Merlkir. It's all kind of modular, so the coif and the horns are removable to make variants.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet2.jpg)

Such is the harnessed power of boredom - The mightiest force in the universe.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 06, 2007, 09:22:23 AM
I like those a lot. I never liked the old helmets all that much, but those look awesome. I don't like the horns too much, though.

Maybe if they were smaller and another color.

A handprint might look cool on there somewhere, as well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 06, 2007, 09:23:46 AM
I think they all look awesome, although I don't like the horns much :P The texture work looks great!

Let's see if AW likes them, but I must say I do like them very much and I'd love to see them in
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 06, 2007, 09:40:01 AM
Yeah, they look great! Thanks.

Ive been really hoping for a better selection of orc helms for some time.  I agree that the horns arent quite right. A little too big and similar to the khamul helm. Maybe if smaller...

Quote
another idea. Does anyone have a screenshot of the fountain guard guys you can get from Denethor as a reward? I wonder what they use for armor.

They use the standard tower guard outfit. The shield might be slightly different, I cant remember.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 06, 2007, 09:44:25 AM
I love you when you're bored! :D great job, Ursca. If you could maybe make variations with white hands prints for the uruks, that would be cool too.

AW's right, I forgot it's and uruk of MORDOR :) stupid me.

edit2: as others said, maybe dirty the horns a bit..

Quote
another idea. Does anyone have a screenshot of the fountain guard guys you can get from Denethor as a reward? I wonder what they use for armor.

They use the standard tower guard outfit. The shield might be slightly different, I cant remember.

yay, another cool unit for me to play around with :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 06, 2007, 09:45:35 AM
I think I would keep these for mordor actually. Anything to differentiate the two sets of Isen and Mordor is useful.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 06, 2007, 09:50:13 AM
Maybe we should have the Uruk shields retextured to match the look of those helms, with those rusty parts...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 06, 2007, 09:53:09 AM
Maybe we should have the Uruk shields retextured to match the look of those helms, with those rusty parts...

I would leave the spiky shields for the Isengard uruks only. As AW says, diferentiate them as possible..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on July 06, 2007, 10:13:03 AM
Anyway, here's my first attempt on orcs! yay for work-doodles :) I know he's clean and clear, but I just couldn't make him any dirtier, he was just so cute :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Uruk%20of%20Mordor.jpg)
Wow, this uruk is perfect, just what I dreamed.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 06, 2007, 11:10:33 AM
DaBlade: (comments to the comments :))

:)

- yeah, berserker with a helm..well, I didn't think about that at all. I just thought "no-armor", the helm came all by itself ;) you're probably right. The design itself came from a miniature (I think it was celtic) I've seen. I can't find the picture right now.
- sword is just plain historical celtic sword with some disproportions :)
- yeah, it's just a common bowl helm with a huge nasal.
- yeah, there's something that still bugs me
- it was meant to be a kind of heavily ornamental and stylish. The horns..I just like. But they appear this way in too many different designs for different cultures so we might wanna drop those. The "bat" is supposed to be a dragon :) I didn't want to detail it that much so it's just a mockup. I've read some quotes about a legendary helm having a dragon on it. Was it Ancalagon? or Glaurung?



and for everyone who thinks our Dunlanders are too overarmored: I agree. I think we need a slightly bit more of those like the Votadini one here:

http://www.roma-victor.com/news/media/index.php?start=0&type=2 (http://www.roma-victor.com/news/media/index.php?start=0&type=2)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Duuvian on July 06, 2007, 11:13:15 AM
Nice hat models, Ursca, I like the way you can make varied versions.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 06, 2007, 11:37:44 AM
DaBlade: (comments to the comments :))

:)

- yeah, berserker with a helm..well, I didn't think about that at all. I just thought "no-armor", the helm came all by itself ;) you're probably right. The design itself came from a miniature (I think it was celtic) I've seen. I can't find the picture right now.
- sword is just plain historical celtic sword with some disproportions :)
- yeah, it's just a common bowl helm with a huge nasal.
- yeah, there's something that still bugs me
- it was meant to be a kind of heavily ornamental and stylish. The horns..I just like. But they appear this way in too many different designs for different cultures so we might wanna drop those. The "bat" is supposed to be a dragon :) I didn't want to detail it that much so it's just a mockup. I've read some quotes about a legendary helm having a dragon on it. Was it Ancalagon? or Glaurung?



and for everyone who thinks our Dunlanders are too overarmored: I agree. I think we need a slightly bit more of those like the Votadini one here:

http://www.roma-victor.com/news/media/index.php?start=0&type=2 (http://www.roma-victor.com/news/media/index.php?start=0&type=2)

The dragon helm of dor-lomin? I think it has Glaurung on it to signify he stood up to glaurung, or something.

No one outside of Angband knew about Ancalagon the Black until the last battle of the first age.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 06, 2007, 12:08:50 PM
Yeah, erm... I knew that was a dragon :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 06, 2007, 02:42:17 PM
found the picture! it's probably mean to wear it 90 degrees turned as you mentioned though.

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/54-038_1.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 06, 2007, 05:40:25 PM
Yeah, probably. Does that guy look like one of those Gauls in the Asterix comics books or what? :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on July 06, 2007, 07:13:20 PM
Yeah, probably. Does that guy look like one of those Gauls in the Asterix comics books or what? :)

yeah, it is suppose to go front to back. and yes, he looks like he is taken out of Asterix  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: JeffBag on July 06, 2007, 07:35:18 PM
Melkir, I know you often paste shots from Europa Barbarorum, but have you checked out their site at www.europabarbarorum.com? Under factions you could take a look a huge number of units, and some of them can really fit the mod.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 07, 2007, 12:34:03 AM
yeah, I know the site :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 07, 2007, 03:28:27 AM
since we want some variety for Easterlings too, I recommend using this:

http://www.historicalmovie.com/c/15/163_nomad__directed_by_ivan_passer.html (http://www.historicalmovie.com/c/15/163_nomad__directed_by_ivan_passer.html)

especially this:
http://www.historicalmovie.com/tmp/foto/163-1106.jpg (http://www.historicalmovie.com/tmp/foto/163-1106.jpg)

I posted it before and I still think that the many shots from different angles would make it very easy to use as a texture..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 07, 2007, 01:36:07 PM
I have this...goal :) which is to paint every NPC hero from TLD. We'll see how long will my enthusiasm last :)
First one from today:

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Imrahil.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 07, 2007, 01:45:56 PM
I feel like my praise grows faint over time because I always like your stuff so much (you and stefano and gd should really all be involved in big budget games, I honestly think), but that is maybe your best work yet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 07, 2007, 01:55:34 PM
thanks :) I've never really liked painting portraits. This project should be a good practise.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on July 07, 2007, 02:43:42 PM
Yeah, looking good, I read somewhere (i think it was lost tales or maybe the ROTK appendices) that Prince Imrahil had dark hair, but ingame he's an old man with grey hair  :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 07, 2007, 04:48:20 PM
I have this...goal :) which is to paint every NPC hero from TLD. We'll see how long will my enthusiasm last :)
First one from today:

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Imrahil.jpg)


Yeah, thats a real nice one. We ought to have a betting pool over how far youll get before you go insane.  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Cocky on July 07, 2007, 05:57:59 PM
Wow... I just had to stop lurking and register to compliment you on that last one. Fantastic stuff.

If you can keep the enthusiasm going long enough, we could make manual of sorts, I just feel something of that quality, and of your concept art is too good to leave in the forum. We could combine it with game information of course, and a small biography on the NPC heroes. I'd love to contribute in whatever meagre way I could, so if  you guys think it would be a good idea, I'll get started.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stemmers? on July 07, 2007, 06:14:46 PM
I *love* the picture, but is Imrahil's head facing forward or backward?

...do Mog the Seven Fingered next!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Cocky on July 07, 2007, 06:23:40 PM
We need Forgul the Fat too :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 07, 2007, 06:29:55 PM
I have this...goal :) which is to paint every NPC hero from TLD. We'll see how long will my enthusiasm last :)
First one from today:

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Imrahil.jpg)


Yeah, thats a real nice one. We ought to have a betting pool over how far youll get before you go insane.  :lol:

You're assuming he's not already insane.  I suspect some degree of insanity is a requirement to work on these projects in general.  I mean, if we weren't all mad, what would we be doing here?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 07, 2007, 11:37:37 PM
some other people do have problems with the head direction. :) means I'm a baaaad painter :) Anyway, it's like this, only a bit more to the side.

http://saanga_blogger.home.comcast.net/photospot/images/candid-portrait-from-india.jpg (http://saanga_blogger.home.comcast.net/photospot/images/candid-portrait-from-india.jpg)

I don't feel insane, just a little crazy :)



edit: and it's FORLONG!!! :) the fat.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Cocky on July 08, 2007, 05:58:23 AM
Heh, where the hell did I get Forlong from?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 08, 2007, 06:13:36 AM
you mean Forgul? :D

Anyway, as soon my dad lets me to his computer, I'll color today's piece. Which is surprisingly.....


YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AY

Forlong the Fat, lord of Lossarnach :) wait for it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Cocky on July 08, 2007, 06:33:06 AM
Awesome, he's the man:)

And also 'me think I are not having good memory'
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 08, 2007, 07:36:20 AM
OK, here's good ol' Forlong :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Forlong.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Cocky on July 08, 2007, 07:47:20 AM
Man, that is just awesome. You really do have talent my friend. Great interpretation.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Yoshiboy on July 08, 2007, 08:08:45 AM
Unbelievable.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 08, 2007, 08:14:09 AM
Brilliant. I like the redness on the nose - obviously a heavy drinker.  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 08, 2007, 09:34:49 AM
Yeah, I like that one. Fat from drinking.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Cocky on July 08, 2007, 09:39:00 AM
Forlong is a real man's man.

... Now I want to go start up a new gondor game. Heh, there goes the rest of my day.

Hey AW, I know you (understandably) loathe being asked, but is the patch coming soon? I am eager to go darkside once again...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 08, 2007, 10:46:54 AM
If anyone LOTR lore wise feels like helping, I could use a list of all NPCs with a short description if possible..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 08, 2007, 10:51:21 AM
http://www.tuckborough.net/

Im sure you know this place but anyway, you can look stuff up here. Seems a little more detailed oriented than the encyc of arda

Most of the lords of gondor and rohan are made up but use tolkien names. So you can do what you like. If you change the appearance from the ingame avatar, I can just change it later. Not that many were named.

Book ones iirc:
Hirluin
Elfhelm (all of the heroes in theodens hall are book cept for ulfas)
Erkenbrand
Grimbold
Forlong
Imrahil
Duilin (thought might not be the same one, the role is different)
Mablung
Duinhir (will eventually take over the nw gondor town when I get around to it)

Glorfindel
Orophin/Haldir/Rumil   -brothers (though rumil just sells crap,  :lol:).
Elladan/Elrohir            -brothers

Some of the uruk-hai heroes are book, not so much with the orcs. Gothmog is totally undescribed. Not even his race. I assume hes BN for the mod.


Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Satan on July 08, 2007, 02:14:29 PM
Awesome stuff. I love his face it has a lot of character. Also I was wondering if you needed any help with concepts for the mod. I use photoshop frequently and really love Lord of the Rings. Attached is one of my concepts for the balrog I was working on and some other drawings I started a while ago.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 08, 2007, 09:23:46 PM
Nice pictures. We're currently orc hunting so if you can think of orc helmets, shields, (not weapons I think, we have plenty..) or amors, feel free to post :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 08, 2007, 09:39:04 PM
I can't draw for crap, and I am not sure I can describe this too well even, but I think it would be cool if some of the orcs had a topless helmet that was more of a collar with steel plates and/or thick spikes coming out from the neck and shoulders.

It would actually be pretty effective protection and would be very different and (I think at least) cool.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 09, 2007, 03:58:48 AM
Like this?;
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet1.jpg)

I thought a bit of protection on top might be needed, and the mail fits TLD a bit better than plate.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 09, 2007, 04:11:57 AM
No offense, man, and it does look sort of cool (in a "bulldog collar" sort of way), but that has got to be the most ineffective-looking piece of headgear I have ever seen.  I mean, a wide band across the nose to obscure vision, AND the sides of the head exposed?  No padding on the top of the head, and nowhere to tie it on?  On top of everything else, the mouth and nose covered to make it hard to breathe...

If you want to go toward more spikes/outcroppings and less helmet, take a lesson from the Japanese helmets with oversize earguards, or the bar faceguards on some of the Roman gladiator helmets.  Turn some horns or metal bars or something out to the side, to catch blades and maces before they connect with the ol' noggin. 

I mean, the look has potential ... for orcs, anyway.  But this particular one didn't make the cut.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 09, 2007, 07:06:43 AM
I like it. Who says all orcs are reasonable? :) I actually drew something similar, but it was more like a collar with additional face protection than a helmet..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 09, 2007, 07:25:23 AM
Collars with some horns or spikes to guard the face or sides of the head ... that makes sense, especially if paired with a simple helmet to cover the top of the head.

And orcs don't have to be reasonable, but one would expect them to be smart enough to understand the whole "helmet" concept, especially if their only training is for war.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on July 09, 2007, 07:36:53 AM
Collars with some horns or spikes to guard the face or sides of the head ... that makes sense, especially if paired with a simple helmet to cover the top of the head.

And orcs don't have to be reasonable, but one would expect them to be smart enough to understand the whole "helmet" concept, especially if their only training is for war.

i must agree here. fantasy designs are always taking their liberties and such, but since this mod is very realistic as far as weapons/armor go i find it a bit out of place. nice model though Ursca, maybe if you throw a little skull cap under the spikes it could work?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 09, 2007, 07:47:44 AM
I want to see Merlkir's "more of a spiked collar" ... especially how it would look paired with one of those "bowl with eye holes" orc/goblin helmets.

Senta, I'm not sure if that other thing can be saved.  A scull cap would help, but you're still going to have to work on the vision impairment and difficulty in breathing.  Sorry about that, Ursca - don't take it personally.  It's very pretty ... just extremely weird.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 09, 2007, 08:07:59 AM
Don't worry about it, it was a quick job, and I thought it looked a bit improbable when I made it.
Orc helmets are a challenge really, as you need something that looks crude and inhuman yet functional and doesn't steal too much from existing cultures.
Weta did a good job though. I think more film screenshots are in order.

To make them inhuman, I quite like the look of 'snouts' on the helmets, or covering the face either fully, the top half (sallet style) or the bottom.

Edit: Here's some nice ones;

(http://www.sideshowtoy.com/mas_assets/large/9516R.jpg)(http://www.the-mathom-house.com/sitebuilder/images/WETA_Attack_Troll-185x250.jpg)(http://www.the-mathom-house.com/sitebuilder/images/WETA_catapult_Troll-182x250.jpg)
(http://www.the-mathom-house.com/sitebuilder/images/WETA_Seige_Tower_Troll-169x247.jpg)(http://www.the-mathom-house.com/sitebuilder/images/WETA_Grond_Troll-202x250.jpg)(http://www.the-mathom-house.com/sitebuilder/images/WETA_Frodo_Orc_Helm-125x250.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 09, 2007, 08:20:53 AM
While you seem to be on the subject, try this...

Take some of the existing orc helmets, and add horns or metal decorations that cover exposed areas.   For example, as mentioned, a collar with spikes or horns to prevent blows to the face, paired with some of the existing helmets.  Or forward-turned horns for eyeguards from the forehead of existing helmets.  Or that row of spikes added to a decent-looking helmet (instead of a band suspended in thin air).  (I actually like the spikes over the top of the head look for orcs.)

Spikes and horns are good ideas, if added to other good ideas.  Spikes and horns in the absence of other good ideas just become far-out and weird.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 09, 2007, 08:51:12 AM
Like this?;
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet1.jpg)

I thought a bit of protection on top might be needed, and the mail fits TLD a bit better than plate.

What I meant was spikes or plates that start from a big wide collar and go all the way up past the top of the head. That is pretty interesting too, though, though probably not protective enough.

If plates extend/extended up high enough I don't necessarily think a skullcap is really needed as most blows are not coming from directly on top of someone - or maybe it is when I think of it - because of the hair problem in M&B.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 09, 2007, 11:49:37 AM
What does everyone think of these?
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/mordororcconcepts.jpg)

The last one may be a little too 'late' for TLD's 'period', although a nasal guard like on Merlkir's Uruk might help.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 09, 2007, 12:00:16 PM
I like the first three, especially the third one.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 09, 2007, 12:21:09 PM
the first three are sort of modified Isengard uruk. the last one is very pretty (love it! :)), kinda looks mordorish to me. Uruk or orc..

edit: the first three I like very much too :) You're a good painter, Ursca, why don't you post your art more?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on July 09, 2007, 01:04:12 PM
I happen to like them all.  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 09, 2007, 01:14:00 PM
Yeah, I think those are all good ones.  As much variety in orc helms as possible seems right to me as they should be he least uniform group. The movie-ish concepts have good points too, especially the first one.

Helmets that project forward seem very orcish to me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 09, 2007, 04:32:56 PM
Here's a quick attempt at the snouted helmet;
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet2-1.jpg)

You're a good painter, Ursca, why don't you post your art more?
Thanks, I should do really. I'll put some stuff up in the art thread on Taleworlds.  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 09, 2007, 04:33:55 PM
Here's a quick attempt at the snouted helmet;
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet2-1.jpg)

You're a good painter, Ursca, why don't you post your art more?
Thanks, I should do really. I'll put some stuff up in the art thread on Taleworlds.  :)

Ooh! That looks even better as a model!  Great stuff!

If you do the first two, they might need airholes or something.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Cocky on July 09, 2007, 04:47:35 PM
Very very nice.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 09, 2007, 05:07:10 PM
Yeah, that worked out great.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 09, 2007, 05:25:53 PM
Great stuff Ursca, keep it up! :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Satan on July 09, 2007, 10:19:27 PM
Heres an orc helmet i did. Its supposed to look like the eye of Sauron. I think maybe the scale mail is a but to advanced for the orc but he could possibly be an orc guarding the Morannon or Dul Guldor. What yall think.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 10, 2007, 07:19:18 AM
that's bloody excellent! (seems like I don't have to worry about concept art for TLD anymore :D)

The clothes are maybe a bit too red (too bright dye and not very dirty..)

And could you maybe use imageshack or something to host pictures? those attachements don't work for me for some reason. :( :(
edit: one small. If I'm correct, our orcs are more of muddy black/browny greyish dark. Than greeny grey :) other than that it looks really good to me from the thumbnail.

Ursca: you're REALLY good. Respect.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 10, 2007, 07:37:40 AM
Nice concept Satan, I like the eye hole.  I think the problem with the helm is the top. As is it looks a bit like the tinman from wizard of oz. But if it was modelled with a rounded guard helmet top it might look like a divers helmet.  Thats the tricky part imo, getting a helmet top that complements the eye hole.  Maybe something exotic.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 10, 2007, 09:34:52 AM
Horns, man.  The single-eye helmet needs horns.  Deer horns would be best, but they're hard on the poly count - so cow horns or stylized metal horns (like a Japanese helmet, for example) or big spikes would also be OK.  But some kind of horns or spikes to stop it from looking like a rocket ship.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 10, 2007, 10:00:50 AM
I wouldn't suggest horns for archer helm (I also don't like horns much in general.). Also, deer "horns" are called antlers, aren't they? it's a different thing. I think antlers are bone derivate and horns are skin derivate..

edit: I was somehow able to click the full picture. I like the helmet a lot. It is very similar to a barbutte. They one eye hole is a cool idea :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: rileslek on July 10, 2007, 10:34:40 AM
Since I'm unable to catch ya @ ICQ... Merlkir, did ya start on that canyon drawing?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 10, 2007, 10:38:42 AM
Since I'm unable to catch ya @ ICQ... Merlkir, did ya start on that canyon drawing?

not yet, really. Tried some sketches, but had to erase them for being too horrible :) I'll have some time during the weekend..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 10, 2007, 10:42:06 AM
I wouldn't suggest horns for archer helm (I also don't like horns much in general.). Also, deer "horns" are called antlers, aren't they? it's a different thing. I think antlers are bone derivate and horns are skin derivate..

edit: I was somehow able to click the full picture. I like the helmet a lot. It is very similar to a barbutte. They one eye hole is a cool idea :)

Deer horns are called "antlers", yes, and their construction differs from bovine horns in that bovine horns contain living tissue inside the horn (self-replacing, like a fingernail), while members of the deer and moose families have solid-core antlers (they grow as velvet-fur covered tissue in the summer, and then harden, and then are shed mid-winter).  Why that matters to helmet design is absolutely beyond me, but since the subject was brought up....

Still I have to agree with AW - the tin-man look needs help.  Rounding it would not make it better ... then it would just need help in a different way.  It needs horns, ridges, spikes, or something to make it look like a combat helmet of the ancient world, and not a robot from a 1960's sci-fi.

And as for archer helmets, there's really nothing on a bow that would get in the way of a horned helmet, unless the horns turned straight forward - and then only if they were long enough to get into the bowstring.  The Japanese samurai were traditionally and often primarily horse archers, and they put stuff on their helmets until they just defy description ... and I never saw a story from ancient Japan where a helmet part got into a bow string.  Archers have to watch what kind of gloves or forearm guards they wear, but the helmet shouldn't have much effect on archery unless it for some reason obscures vision or distorts depth perception (like an oversize nose guard that makes the wearer see the world cross-eyed, or tiny eye-holes that cause tunnel vision).

And normally, no, deer antlers would be overstated on a helmet (unless a commander was trying to make himself more visible).  However, that particular helmet would look good with deer antlers.  But since antlers are hard on the poly count, a row of short but noticeable spikes over the top would do the job too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 10, 2007, 10:53:09 AM
Some of the helmets from excalibur has like steel stylized antlers - basically a flat, fluted plate on each side - kinda like the swan wings on the dol amroth helmets now.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 10, 2007, 10:59:25 AM
I don't have anything against antlers in particular. I just have the feeling that orc archers would look best with simple helmets..

I don't know, I have never seen Wizard of Oz, so I guess I don't have that Tin man stigma ;) Looks pretty ok and medieval or ancient to me. I'll try to look up some similar ones.

edit: again, the top looks perfectly fine to me. Maybe the rivets produce the robot feel for you guys. It just reminds me tops of byzantine helmets like this guy has.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5214/dnicolled1ms.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5214/dnicolled1ms.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 10, 2007, 11:12:54 AM
that right guy's helm is just so weird :D I could see it maybe with the Corsairs?

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/3928/e0gy.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/3928/e0gy.jpg)

also, this is a nice gallery, lots of pictures I have never seen.
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/211695958FFbuWX?start=0 (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/211695958FFbuWX?start=0)

like this one :)

http://image22.webshots.com/22/1/84/56/212218456fFIngr_fs.jpg?track_pagetag=/page/photo/homegarden/hobbiesinterests&track_action=/ViewActions/FullSize (http://image22.webshots.com/22/1/84/56/212218456fFIngr_fs.jpg?track_pagetag=/page/photo/homegarden/hobbiesinterests&track_action=/ViewActions/FullSize)

also, these armors are nice. I like the masked helmets and the shields.

http://www.livesteelarmor.com/gal/turks.html (http://www.livesteelarmor.com/gal/turks.html)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 10, 2007, 11:48:56 AM
Nice dwarven stuff in that last link ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 10, 2007, 12:24:36 PM
I was thinking variags, but yeah, if we just leave the shapes without the obviously eastern ornaments, it could as well be dwarven..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on July 10, 2007, 01:09:08 PM
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet3.jpg)

Not as Orcy as I would have liked, but maybe they can be used somewhere. I might have a go at Satan's one tomorrow. I'll see how it goes.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on July 10, 2007, 02:37:53 PM
Hey guys, here's the reworked Rohan helmet, the one with full aventail is still in works  ;) it would be great if Ursca or Merl could take a crack at it, if it's any good...

(http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/8552/rohanrewardfx0.th.jpg) (http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rohanrewardfx0.jpg)

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 10, 2007, 04:37:52 PM
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet3.jpg)

Not as Orcy as I would have liked, but maybe they can be used somewhere. I might have a go at Satan's one tomorrow. I'll see how it goes.



Yeah, its unusual but still very usable. Maybe as a mordor uruk helm. Good stuff again!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 10, 2007, 05:16:04 PM
Hey guys, here's the reworked Rohan helmet, the one with full aventail is still in works  ;) it would be great if Ursca or Merl could take a crack at it, if it's any good...

(http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/8552/rohanrewardfx0.th.jpg) (http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rohanrewardfx0.jpg)



I think the concept is a bit too Hellenic (ancient Greece) looking, but I like the horse on top. Maybe you could work on it and give it a more Viking/Saxon look.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on July 10, 2007, 07:11:18 PM
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet3.jpg)

Not as Orcy as I would have liked, but maybe they can be used somewhere. I might have a go at Satan's one tomorrow. I'll see how it goes.


The Crests make the last three remind me of rohan.

I perfer slits as eye holes, which look less human-like to triangle-holes.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 10, 2007, 07:31:09 PM
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet3.jpg)

Not as Orcy as I would have liked, but maybe they can be used somewhere. I might have a go at Satan's one tomorrow. I'll see how it goes.



Here's your spot for that row of spikes over the top, like the fantasy-ish one.  They don't look "orc" enough because they're too clean.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 10, 2007, 08:36:36 PM
Senta: the concept is not bad, but as Blade says, too much Greek looking. If you check out Last Alliance's noldorin helmets, that's almost exactly what they look like.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 10, 2007, 08:59:21 PM
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet3.jpg)

Not as Orcy as I would have liked, but maybe they can be used somewhere. I might have a go at Satan's one tomorrow. I'll see how it goes.



I had this idea: how about cutting out about half of the face mask (like a "V" upside-down) so we could see the mouth? I think it could look good together with the triangle shaped eye holes. And maybe put that row of spikes over the top, like Ron mentioned.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on July 11, 2007, 10:41:10 AM
Senta: the concept is not bad, but as Blade says, too much Greek looking. If you check out Last Alliance's noldorin helmets, that's almost exactly what they look like.

yeah, it might be. It was inspired by a Conan's Pallantides figure, and i kind of liked the idea of it being ancient looking, but it's true it doesn't mesh well with the existing Rohan armor. i will redo it at some point.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 11, 2007, 11:08:52 AM
Senta: the concept is not bad, but as Blade says, too much Greek looking. If you check out Last Alliance's noldorin helmets, that's almost exactly what they look like.

yeah, it might be. It was inspired by a Conan's Pallantides figure, and i kind of liked the idea of it being ancient looking, but it's true it doesn't mesh well with the existing Rohan armor. i will redo it at some point.

seen that one, that figure kicks ass :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Duuvian on July 11, 2007, 08:56:32 PM
For those latest helmets, it would be cool i think if you cut a small rectangle out of the bottom, so the sides enlogate to small fang-looking things. That would let you see enough face to tell its an orc and be a good variation too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 12, 2007, 10:54:39 AM
So tomorrow if I have more time after work, I'll scan every single crappy doodle I've drawn AT work this week. All orc stuff and one sketch for Glorfindel portrait..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 12, 2007, 11:26:19 AM
strange, I haven't found this article before. I find it interesting. I like how he emphasizes the lighter equipment of the non-Minas Tirith Gondorian troops. I still think our good guys are overarmored and that we should somehow balance it out in a minimod or something. Make the current standard troops more expensive so people are actually forced to use the auxillia (cheaper and lighter armored.)

I like his Lossarnachians :)

http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=disparticle&catid=1&subid=1&artilceid=2833 (http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=disparticle&catid=1&subid=1&artilceid=2833)

I like all of it actually :) no plate, nice designs even using parts of standard miniatures. We don't have any guys from Ringlo Vale, do we?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 12, 2007, 11:52:02 AM
cute orcsies :)
nice (yet simple) rohirrim shield designs. This guy's not stupid. No no :)
awesome warg riders. (I like the wicker shields..and the banner and all ;))
Maaaarch you maggots!

edit: ok, here's the gallery :D

http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=viewgallery&catid=1&subid=6&galleryid=0&galleryuser=3829&action=ViewGallery (http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=viewgallery&catid=1&subid=6&galleryid=0&galleryuser=3829&action=ViewGallery)
http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=viewgallery&catid=1&subid=6&galleryid=3&galleryuser=3829&action=ViewGallery (http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=viewgallery&catid=1&subid=6&galleryid=3&galleryuser=3829&action=ViewGallery)
http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=viewgallery&catid=1&subid=6&galleryid=2&galleryuser=3829&action=ViewGallery (http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=viewgallery&catid=1&subid=6&galleryid=2&galleryuser=3829&action=ViewGallery)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 12, 2007, 12:17:12 PM
I can't see the pictures in your last post.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 12, 2007, 12:24:27 PM
damn. Showing pictures is probably banned from that site. I'll link them.


edit: ok, linking banned too. Damn :) I'll just link the gallery.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 13, 2007, 10:43:19 AM
Doodle time! :) as I said, most of them are pretty silly. I just can't get the hang of designing something evil looking, being made by low creatures, that should yet be protective and have a macho show off value. :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Orc%20Helmets.jpg)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Orc%20Helmets2.jpg)

and the Glorfindel doodle. Just trying to find the armor and a "cool" look that I should achieve in the portrait :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/GlorfindelSKETCH.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 13, 2007, 11:25:47 AM
Actually the one you hate has potential, I think.

That is sort of what I was talking about bfore, but with spikes all around that go up further and protect the face a little bit. 

If nothing else it is very difference...could even be used for a lethal headbutt, I guess.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 13, 2007, 11:47:04 AM
I like the beaked helmets up top, the second one more than the first.. and the mask one on the same page with the downward spikes, open mouth area, and the big round eyes.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 13, 2007, 12:08:09 PM
I like that Glorfindel sketch :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 13, 2007, 12:24:38 PM
well, they're just doodles :)

Anyway, tried sketching Moria and I failed miserably :) it's looking the opposite of what I want. Small and rough. So I painted Witchking on his way to WC at night. Magic light comes in handy, Minas Morgul can be a maze if you just wanna pee ;)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WitchkingWC.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 13, 2007, 12:36:58 PM
Wow, that looks awesome!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 13, 2007, 12:38:51 PM
nah, I was really pissed about the picture ;) I threw in a guy in a robe who's holding a ball of light. Then I played with the colors and added the highlights when I got the Witchking idea.
Still disappointed about the Moria thing..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 13, 2007, 01:00:27 PM
I think it looks pretty good for moria.

It should not be rough cut, as you say, but I don't think that is - it should look like grandeur fallen into disrepair, though. I mean, how long was it since Moria fell, after all?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 13, 2007, 02:02:56 PM
Merlkir, I think you caught the right atmosphere, and that is something one doesn't always achieve ;)

It must be really cold in Moria; I think I can see his pee getting frozen in front of him, heh :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 14, 2007, 08:54:32 AM
Since the deal with painted backgrounds is out anyway, I can post the new ones here too :)

Dol Amroth:

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Dol%20AmrothM.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 14, 2007, 09:21:19 AM
Sweet one.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 14, 2007, 09:41:45 AM
Very nice.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Daergar on July 14, 2007, 12:57:11 PM
Merlkir, incredible art.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on July 14, 2007, 09:09:03 PM
Merlkir, that's really good! Go to cgtalk (http://www.cgtalk.com), submit it and show it to people!

Speaking of painted background, can the smile of the Haradrim face be wiped off? It seems inappropriate.
Should look like evil and serious, like this: >:( , not evil and jolly, like  this :)
Same for Morannon
Here the proposed before VS after:

(http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/~tarini/tmp/tmpHarad.png) (http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/~tarini/tmp/tmpHarad2.png)
(http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/~tarini/tmp/tmpMora.png) (http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/~tarini/tmp/tmpMora2.png)






Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 15, 2007, 01:05:35 AM
mhhmmm, yeah. I tend to paint good characters kinda gloomy or angry and the baddies sort of smiling. Don't know why. You've repainted it quite well, you can surely do it full scale and send it to AW :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Klink on July 15, 2007, 01:39:58 AM
The Morannon one, ok, but I really like the Haradrim fella smiling. One of those nice little touches that lift the pictures up from being generic.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 15, 2007, 06:28:32 AM
I've got my hands on a book Angus McBride's Characters of MiddleEarth. McBride is no longer with us, but his paintings have that classic quality to them. They're a bit fairy taleish sometimes, but he has some good ideas and they always have great mood. Also the pics are very high res :)

I personally love this one. Arnorian noble with his guard are ambushed by wosses.

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/McBrideDunadani.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 15, 2007, 06:36:49 AM
Speaking of books, I have the full RPG set. Someone asked for more rewards from armories. Well, there's a book called Treasures of ME, maybe we can use stuff from there. I know Aryndil spits sulfur on those RPGs, but we're already making stuff up ;)

edit: I'm going through them briefly and I gotta say the Rohirrim are well presented (visually) in their own module. Very nice. Also some picture of rohan villages, possible inspiration..

edit: oh, there are also several great concepts of umbarian and harad ships. And I again stumbled upon the gondorian marines picture. Lovely :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 15, 2007, 07:44:19 AM
nice ogre by J.Sweet. Kinda trollish ;)

(http://www.justinsweet.com/GALLERY/DETAIL/136_ogre.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 15, 2007, 07:45:47 AM
Again, Sweet is fucking brilliant! An easterling? or a Harad knight?

(http://www.justinsweet.com/GALLERY/DETAIL/170_NERMESA.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on July 15, 2007, 05:24:40 PM
mhhmmm, yeah. I tend to paint good characters kinda gloomy or angry and the baddies sort of smiling. Don't know why. You've repainted it quite well, you can surely do it full scale and send it to AW :)

Good idea, I just did, in case we decide to use them.

Edit: that Sweet's stuff is just marvelous. I assume there is no way it can be used directly, if not just for reference?


Klink: I liked the smiling Haradrim as well at first, found it refreshing and cool, but then again, you know, he should be there thinking "I begin to suspect that these deceitful agents from Mordor has cheated or bribed our leaders into this war, and now I am here so far from home in a war where I sure don't belong, I wonder if I'll ever come back, well now it is either my blood or theirs that is spilled, let's hope these bastards in Gondor are evil and weak as they assure us they are <gloom mood ensues>"
Also, consider that it is the same face they still make when they are heving their butt kicked.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 15, 2007, 05:40:10 PM
Well, if it were a churlish sort of smile then it would make more sense to me. Like a gloating orc...but they have teeth like b movie stars and seem too benign.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Klink on July 16, 2007, 09:51:23 AM
No, if it were an eeeevil smile that would put it right back in cliché territory. Which is bad. I consider Tolkien a cut above the rest of the fantasy-bereft fantasy genre, so I'll take that Colgate-smile over a frown any day.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 16, 2007, 05:29:17 PM
No, if it were an eeeevil smile that would put it right back in cliché territory. Which is bad. I consider Tolkien a cut above the rest of the fantasy-bereft fantasy genre, so I'll take that Colgate-smile over a frown any day.

For the haradrim I don't see an evil smile, but the orcs are the very epitome of evil, next to Sauron. Though a kind of weedy and pathetic evil in most cases, perhaps.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Klink on July 16, 2007, 10:45:32 PM
ok, I was referring to the Harad bloke. Agree with the Orc. Orcs don't smile, they leer.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 19, 2007, 07:29:42 AM
OK, my Children of Húrin just arrived. It's beautiful. I don't know if I'll read it anytime soon, but the picture by Alan Lee is genious. If I didn't know he was a god before, that would surely convince me.

I have this one (though I believe the figure is not such centered and not so big..maybe this is a weird cutout?)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/85/The_Children_of_Hurin_cover.jpg) I was right, ours look like this: (http://sweb.cz/slevy/2007-05-31/Hurin.jpg)

this dutch one isn't half bad either :)

(http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/7/7c/The_Children_of_Hurin_%28Dutch%29.jpg)

and here's the nice dragon helm:

(http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/images/Children_of_Hurin_Dragon_Helm.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 19, 2007, 09:30:41 AM
My copy has the centered figure. There is great artwork inside, too. I got halfway through, but somehow it seems kind of flat compared to the older version and there is less new content than I had hoped for. The language is plainer and I don't really like it as much as the kind of 'high' style of the silmarillion.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 19, 2007, 10:13:08 AM
I know it's LARP and shit, but I see some nice harad elements in these costumes I think I could use...(they're actually meant to be Haradrim..)

(http://vzcvzc.rajce.idnes.cz/MPP_2007/images/2007_0624Image0056.JPG)
(http://abi.rajce.idnes.cz/MISC/images/100_4069.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 20, 2007, 10:59:49 PM
Fourth Age TW have released a new version called New Shadow. Here's trailer. It looks a bit the same as FATW, but the trolls in the end totally rock! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo-kLi-KWQ8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo-kLi-KWQ8)

also, this dwarf I really like :) I think I'll steal it.

(http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatwfe19patch007kc7.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Apoc on July 21, 2007, 05:57:29 AM
Fourth Age TW have released a new version called New Shadow. Here's trailer. It looks a bit the same as FATW, but the trolls in the end totally rock! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo-kLi-KWQ8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo-kLi-KWQ8)

also, this dwarf I really like :) I think I'll steal it.

(http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatwfe19patch007kc7.jpg)

Feel free to 'steal' it :)

Anything you guys can use, you're free to have - just give us some nice credit  ;)

(Btw, full release thread (http://www.thefourthage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1775))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 21, 2007, 07:26:08 AM
:D nice of you. I actually forgot you're on the team..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 21, 2007, 09:14:15 AM
Obviously this is a smaller mod than FATW but we already share some design elements thanks to the professor working for a bit on this one.  Ive always been looking forward to FATW but Im not going to play it until they get closer to the final. Just to enjoy it in full. That should be some fun.

EDIT: Those trolls look nice. Hopefully with a new m&b we can get something like that soon too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 21, 2007, 02:08:20 PM
That's a great trailer, very well done.

I can't see that dwarf image, Merlkir.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 21, 2007, 02:24:39 PM
Actually, maybe that is the full FATW release now.  Im not sure.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 21, 2007, 03:42:52 PM
I can't see that dwarf image, Merlkir.

neither can I now. Strange. :(
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Apoc on July 21, 2007, 05:06:36 PM
I can't see that dwarf image, Merlkir.

neither can I now. Strange. :(

Is this the one you mean, Merlkir?

(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4694/fatwfe19patch007kc7.th.jpg) (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatwfe19patch007kc7.jpg)(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3033/fatwfe19patch006os5.th.jpg) (http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatwfe19patch006os5.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 22, 2007, 11:34:24 AM
yup, that's the one.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Pope on July 23, 2007, 11:55:26 PM
Here's what came to my mind when I saw bryces description of an orc collar thing:

(http://members.iinet.net.au/~theclearys/Orc_collar_helm.jpg)

Spikes might be a bit too high, and it would look a bit more practical when combined with a skullcap. Apart from that, the collar is a nice idea.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on July 23, 2007, 11:58:22 PM
I like it...actually, I love it! It's like you read my mind.

If it extended further up towards the sifes it might be more practical, though, or maybe it just needs a small skullcap as well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Pope on July 24, 2007, 12:05:21 AM
I think it would work quite well as an orc leaders helm. It's distinctive, imposing and it doesn't impede vision or shouting ability.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on July 24, 2007, 12:53:03 AM
Certainly needs a helmet to go with it.  I would say to drop the webbing between the spikes, and instead, turn them out more and up a lot less.  Say, about the size of average cow horns, and turned straight out about even with the eyes. 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 24, 2007, 07:07:32 AM
I like it ;)

edit: also, I'm still drawing and painting stuff, but it's sort of..one themed. So I'll wait until there's enough to make a nice preview and then post it all at once.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on July 24, 2007, 11:20:09 AM
Yeah, that looks cool (in an evil way :P).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 08:48:29 AM
uhm, Ursca, you still bored? :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/dc-386.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on July 28, 2007, 06:32:45 PM
Merlkir, that's really good! Go to cgtalk (http://www.cgtalk.com), submit it and show it to people!

Speaking of painted background, can the smile of the Haradrim face be wiped off? It seems inappropriate.
Should look like evil and serious, like this: >:( , not evil and jolly, like  this :)
Same for Morannon
Here the proposed before VS after:

(http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/~tarini/tmp/tmpHarad.png) (http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/~tarini/tmp/tmpHarad2.png)
(http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/~tarini/tmp/tmpMora.png) (http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/~tarini/tmp/tmpMora2.png)

I'm agreeing on the Orc, although that self-confident smile on the Haradrin faces is frickin' awesome, I love it. Don't make it go away, pretty please!

Anyway, here's my first attempt on orcs! yay for work-doodles :) I know he's clean and clear, but I just couldn't make him any dirtier, he was just so cute :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Uruk%20of%20Mordor.jpg)

I'm loving it. With a really long hauberk, because he snatched it off some dead Gondorian. Awesome work.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 29, 2007, 08:00:59 AM
thanks Aryndil ;)

found a nice picture by timothy ide ;)

(http://tolkienilu.chez-alice.fr/epopee/illustrations/seigneur_des_anneaux/ttt/charge_de_theoden_ide.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Lorodim on July 29, 2007, 10:49:44 AM
I like the eyes of the orcs :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Sunhawken on July 29, 2007, 12:49:38 PM
thanks Aryndil ;)

found a nice picture by timothy ide ;)

(http://tolkienilu.chez-alice.fr/epopee/illustrations/seigneur_des_anneaux/ttt/charge_de_theoden_ide.jpg)


Looks like human half orc mutants to me. Lawl Big Eyes.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 29, 2007, 12:53:04 PM
I like some of that stuff. The studded leather parts in particular. Reminds me of that dwarven studded leather cap you did.  I'd like more studded leather bits in the mod.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 29, 2007, 01:02:43 PM
whatever you say, boss ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Pope on July 30, 2007, 01:54:35 AM
The harad smile should stay. I know I'd be smiling if I had an elephant.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on July 30, 2007, 11:57:11 AM
This is a brilliant picture of elves. The artist got +watched by me some time ago, he's amazing with oils.

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/60908404/ (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/60908404/)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on July 31, 2007, 12:49:08 PM
(http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs16/i/2007/210/8/e/The_Elves_by_Stormcrow135.jpg)

Holy shit, that's awesome. We need more angry elves.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Sunhawken on July 31, 2007, 03:03:09 PM
(http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs16/i/2007/210/8/e/The_Elves_by_Stormcrow135.jpg)

Holy shit, that's awesome. We need more angry elves.

 thats the elf i'm talking about
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 02, 2007, 11:28:10 AM
please, could we maybe ask Stoned Dude for these?!! they look SO MUCH BETTER than the native ones!

yay!

edit:
waraxe's done  :D
(and yes, I know, It looks like a dana axe, but it's hard to deny my viking ancestry) :P
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8152/waraxepa2.th.png) (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=waraxepa2.png)(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2931/waraxeclosetg2.th.png) (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=waraxeclosetg2.png)
..and the battleaxe
(http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4838/battleaxezb5.th.png) (http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=battleaxezb5.png)

they're from the Standard Weapon Upgrade Project
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 02, 2007, 11:31:21 AM
plus they look really viking/rohirrim/dunnish :)

stoned dude said yes, after the package is released. So we wait. I have to remember those, they're really beautiful.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 04, 2007, 11:26:29 AM
I WANT THIS! :DD guys, can you imagine it in MaB?

(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6571/dwarves2nk9.png)
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9568/crashsp1.png)
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3964/squashthemir6.png)
http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwarves2nk9.png (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwarves2nk9.png)
http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crashsp1.png (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crashsp1.png)
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3964/squashthemir6.png (http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3964/squashthemir6.png)

PS: I love the very byzantine feel of the dwarven armor.



EDIT: this is also nice and it gave me some ideas. I'm storing it here:

(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1562/hero11vh3.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Lorodim on August 04, 2007, 01:01:54 PM
that battle would make my pc explode...again!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 04, 2007, 02:32:45 PM
this would make a nice corsair blade:

(http://www.odinblades.com/Swords5/SwordOfPeru.JPG)
(http://www.odinblades.com/Swords5/SwordOfPeru2.JPG[img])http://www.odinblades.com/Swords5/SwordOfPeru3.JPG[/img]

some more fantasy ones:

(http://www.odinblades.com/Swords4/Dorado.JPG)
(http://www.odinblades.com/Swords4/DoradoClsp.JPG)
(http://www.odinblades.com/Acanthus/Ennorath1.jpg)
(http://www.odinblades.com/Acanthus/Ennorath2.jpg)
(http://www.odinblades.com/Acanthus/Ennorath3.jpg)
(http://www.odinblades.com/Acanthus/Glawar1.jpg)
(http://www.odinblades.com/Acanthus/Glawar2.jpg)
(http://www.odinblades.com/Acanthus/Glawar3.jpg)

this one might be good for dunnish berserkers as a reward. The wolf head and all ;)

http://www.odinblades.com/Pages/CelticWolf.html (http://www.odinblades.com/Pages/CelticWolf.html)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: WImPyTjeH on August 04, 2007, 02:35:35 PM
Yeah, those are from Middle-earth mods for Rome: Total War.

It's actually doesn't lag for a medium (even bad) PC.

The first three ones are from the Fourth Age: Total War who only focus on the books.

And the render pic is from Lord of the Rings: Total War who focus on the movies and use the books to fill in gaps.

Both excellent mods

*This was shameless advertising*  :P

W
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 05, 2007, 12:22:56 PM
Interesting Boromir :) He's wearing the norman type helmet we've assigned to the variags :DD

(http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/lecouilliard/Boromir.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 05, 2007, 12:36:52 PM
And he has some kind of eastern looking lamellar armor and green cloth underneath. That's the worse Boromir I've ever seen :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 05, 2007, 01:04:55 PM
I love the picture, but it sure does not match my vision of that scene :D

Another one from rolozo - Mad Dwarfz and Orczz!!!

http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/janin/Azanulbizar.jpg (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/janin/Azanulbizar.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Theodred son of Theoden on August 05, 2007, 05:09:47 PM
Melrkir...:) Browsed through your picture gallery and can say you without flattery that you are a talented artist with original perception of Tolkien's work...

Really interesting...


So, somewhere on your DeivantARt page you state that you want to draw all the pcitures of TLD NPCs...That's just a tremendous idea(in the light of our little "lore re-vision")...I mean, can those pictures be included in TLD? Maybe even not featured in actual gameplay, but presented as a seperate help menu in the beginning...Idea is borrowed from old Riders of Rohan game...

Oh we can feature the pictures in-game...
They will add a spicy, original feature....

Of course, if you have time and desire to do it...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 05, 2007, 08:42:25 PM
that's the idea. :) In theory. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 06, 2007, 04:55:45 PM
The battle of Azanulbizar is one of my most favourite battles from the Third Age. God's death, it sounded epic. And that picture is hereby my new background. Awesome.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Lorodim on August 06, 2007, 05:19:12 PM
in what books was it?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 07, 2007, 09:35:31 AM
This is a first of the Harad concepts I've drawn so far at work. I'm slowly coloring them so I'll be posting them one a day. (I hope)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/HaradCavHelms.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 07, 2007, 10:03:19 AM
Nice stuf :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Theodred son of Theoden on August 07, 2007, 12:37:33 PM
Very original and cool.:)
Two thumbs up!!!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Scrat on August 08, 2007, 02:38:40 AM
Very nice! Facial tattoos are a nice addon.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 08, 2007, 03:45:41 AM
in what books was it?

Appendices of The Lord of the Rings, I believe.

Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Azanulbizar)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Yoshiboy on August 08, 2007, 04:14:09 AM
Pretty pretty :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 08, 2007, 11:14:42 AM
thanks guys :) People like the middle helmet, I think it's a bit too rich.

No concepts today. I colored one, but it's a whole character and it's gonna take more time.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on August 08, 2007, 12:54:30 PM
I like the first one and the last one. The middle one's a bit too Elven in my mind.

Covering the lower face is a good way to make them look mysterious and evil. The helmet on the last one would make a good corsair helmet actually; It looks kind of fishy.

I tried a gorget and Kettle hat like the picture you posted, Merlkir:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/orchelmet4.jpg)

It might cover too much of the face though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 08, 2007, 01:04:31 PM
the shape is a bit different, but I like it :)

BTW: I've got my hands on a Hobbit graphic novel and surprisingly it has some good artwork! especially nice Esgaroth and dwarven designs..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Lorodim on August 08, 2007, 02:27:23 PM
Show us please
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 09, 2007, 11:21:38 AM
(http://www.ironagearmoury.com/100_1829.jpg)
(http://www.ironagearmoury.com/100_1834.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Lorodim on August 09, 2007, 01:43:12 PM
looks like a lithuanian pagan damascus...cool! :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 09, 2007, 05:20:41 PM
Oh, as for the Nanduhirion background - anyone else notice how explicitly eastern the Orcs are? The helmets and the torso armour - and there's an Orc to the left with a katana. And countering we have Dwarves with so blatant Nordic influences it's awkward and awesome at the same time :P

(http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/janin/Boromir.jpg)

Damn, this is a much better Boromir than Sean Bean. Maybe a Sean Bean with black hair would've worked, but this guy is a little bit more, ahh, Kevin Spacey, which kinda fits Boromir. With the slick hair, he also looks a bit more like Denethor.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 11, 2007, 03:24:35 AM
So. I had some real life problems, but here's another Haradrim concept.

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/HaradMediumCavalry.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 11, 2007, 09:30:41 AM
Very romanesque. I like it! Also, sorry to hear you're having problems  ???
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 11, 2007, 09:52:37 AM
not very romanesque :D more like parthian/skythian/macedonian.
My mum got into a car accident, quite bad, she's lucky to be alive. But we're all happy and I'm visiting her in the hospital every day..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 11, 2007, 10:40:14 AM
My mum got into a car accident, quite bad, she's lucky to be alive. But we're all happy and I'm visiting her in the hospital every day.

Shit, that's serious. Can't believe you actually cared to finish the cavalryman.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on August 11, 2007, 11:14:37 AM
Father Chains: probably you did not mean it but that can sound like a totally out of place comment. Naturally we are in no position to judge how appropriate Merlkir's personal actions are within his personal life, and I assume they are very appropriate, and beside there is nothing that makes that hard to believe at all, in this thread.

Merlkir: sorry to hear that. I wish her a full, if not fast, recover.
Nice art, by the way, once again.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 11, 2007, 11:23:14 AM
Thanks guys :)
What should I do? cry in the corner? ;)
TLD is my love, it's a good way for me to relax..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on August 11, 2007, 02:54:58 PM
Sorry to hear about that man.

Keep up the great work, Ill have some time real soon.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 11, 2007, 04:03:56 PM
Sorry to hear about your mum, Merlkir.

That's a nice drawing you have there, but I don't like the concept; it's too bronze age looking.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 11, 2007, 04:29:41 PM
Father Chains: probably you did not mean it but that can sound like a totally out of place comment. Naturally we are in no position to judge how appropriate Merlkir's personal actions are within his personal life, and I assume they are very appropriate, and beside there is nothing that makes that hard to believe at all, in this thread.

Maa Tarini: I sincerely hope you did not attempt to come across as some sort of uncouth lawyer type. My very own intentions were to express disbelief based on personal experience and notions of how to process accidents within the closest circles of family. Suffice to say, the good artiste and I are not on first name basis, but after a year and a half in close entwinement of interests within the forum sphere of the modification "The Last Days", from the time it was but one topic at the original TaleWorlds forums, and neither a sub-forum here nor there, we are close enough to carry a casual tone and vocabulary when speaking.

Hence, "Shit, that's serious. Can't believe you actually cared to finish the cavalryman", is a reply to be entirely expected.

Share your sentiments, though, DaBlade, doesn't seem quite up to speed. Swan Knights had arm bracers of steel, loafing about in ancient armour just doesn't seem quite... periodic, when Haradrim were said to even have lamellar. But I'm loving the style of his face. The eagle's beak like nose, the razor-sharp chin and the sunray paint about his eyes gives him an alienated, gaunt look. I'm loving the man, just seems like he got pulled out of the First Age.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 11, 2007, 10:07:31 PM
too bad :D the others are quite similar...But I have some looking maybe more arabir or something, those might fit.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stemmers? on August 11, 2007, 10:59:49 PM
I like the Haradrim concept a lot, anachronisms be damned. You certainly won't be hearing me complaining if I saw that armor in-game.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 12, 2007, 01:17:07 AM
What I was thinking: not about eras. More like climate and terrain they'd be taught to fight in. These types of cuirasses were used in a very wide variety of cavalry forces. From Alexander's companions or mercenary thessalians to persian knights. the scale ones were typical for parthians, scythians (Sarmatians) and all sorts of nomadic tribes around today's Afganistan. Even Romans used similar cuirasses for their officers and cavalry. It's not that hard to make, it offers quite good protection and it's quite light. It leaves the arms free to manipulate the spear or fire the bow. Also it's good for fighting in a hot clima (like desert or jungle). It's nowhere near matching the protection of the mailled knights, but it doesn't intend to. It's for light and more maneuvreable cavalry with completely different tactics than rushing forward with spears lowered (even though Alexander based his attacks on exactly this kind of strategy.)
The light cavalry would mostly serve as skirmishers either with a bow of a few javelins. Then they would harass the enemy with series of repeated false attacks. When the infantry meets the enemy, the cavalry usually tries to flank him and strike the finishing blow.

Which kind of suited my vision of the Haradrim. Also...I thought about the haradrim actually be composed of several southron tribes. There would be arabian looking horse masters with proud black mares with scimitars and covered faces. Then I thought of the guys I described earlier. I even have an infantry/skirmisher or slinger/cavalry tier line with professional mercenaries wearing animal hides (lion, tiger..) who I think look quite cool :) And lastly there would be the black guys from far Harad, huge fellows with clubs and obsidian spears wearing feathers and leopard skin.. :)

maybe too much variety I guess.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 12, 2007, 01:20:12 AM
also I forgot about the personal guard to harad lords called Black Snakes. Who's name I snatched from FATW and I think they look intensly cool and evil. I think the evil human players would kill for those guys to be in their armies :) lots of heavy armors, red painted faces or completely closed vicious looking helmets and deadly looking scimitars and sabres. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 12, 2007, 02:08:08 AM
I'm lovin' it! :D

(http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/000_Persian_Heavy_Cavalry.jpg)
(http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/0008cimbri.jpg)
(http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/0009cimbri.jpg)
(http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/0012cimbri.jpg)
(http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/0007cimbri.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 12, 2007, 11:01:37 AM
Reminds me of all the textures I made for RTW mods :P

I'm not a specialist, but as far as I know the Linothorax armor was only used during the bronze age. I don't think it would be effective against iron weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linothorax
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 12, 2007, 11:09:43 AM
Reminds me of all the textures I made for RTW mods :P

I'm not a specialist, but as far as I know the Linothorax armor was only used during the bronze age. I don't think it would be effective against iron weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linothorax

I'm not entirely sure about that, I think the byzantines used it in the early medieval era.

. It's not that bronze couldn't pierce it and steel could. The bronze just bent from time to time and got dull easier.
But meh, I won't force it if you guys don't like it ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 12, 2007, 11:38:25 AM
I do like it. But I think it doesn't look like it belongs in Tolkien's ME (for a 3rd age scenario at least).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 12, 2007, 11:46:00 AM
Yeah, I guess it depends on every person's imagination...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on August 12, 2007, 06:04:52 PM
Scale armors of that type were used across Eastern Europe well into the period of plate armors.  Similar designs also appeared across the Mongol Empire (although laced lamellars tended to be more popular).  They're certainly not a bronze-age thing ... with good steel scales, they can be quite effective even against modern handguns (albeit you add some weight to make them thick enough to be bullet-proof).

I like them.  A cheap and easily produced armor for a proud but somewhat nomadic group.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 13, 2007, 11:21:01 AM
I don't like the shiny bracers, but other than that it's a nice corsair ;)

(http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs8/f/2006/350/8/0/The_Spanish_Lord_by_atistatplay.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 13, 2007, 03:48:36 PM
Yeah, that looks like a Corsair to me :)

About the use of Linothorax for the Haradrim; even if they were used by eastern people into medieval age, I still don't like the idea of the Haradrim using it. And Tolkien never mentioned Linothorax armor being used by any of the ME cultures. Of course we can use our imagination to fill the gaps, but making the Haradrim look like the Alexander's Companion Cavalry is pushing it way too far IMHO. As much as I like Merlkir's art and the majority of his concepts, I must say I don't agree with the use of Linothorax in TLD from a concept point of view.

Here are some quotations on the Haradrim from Tolkien's works (thanks to Apoc):

http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7979&postcount=6
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 13, 2007, 08:46:44 PM
well, I thought I added enough haradrim attributes. I guess not. I hate the fact they're described wearing only red and scarlet. I respect Tolkien, but it's dull. If you have and army composed of tribesmen, they wouldn't by any chance wear the same thing. Not ALL of them.
But I guess it's the canon :(
And linothorax itself isn't bad...it's nothing inferior, if it has the scales sewn upon, it's a scale armor, nothing less :) it's just the shape that may look odd to some people. But everyone wears mail in TLD. And I said before, it's kinda hard to diferentiate it..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on August 13, 2007, 09:28:51 PM
Scale armors of that type were used across Eastern Europe well into the period of plate armors.  Similar designs also appeared across the Mongol Empire (although laced lamellars tended to be more popular).  They're certainly not a bronze-age thing ... with good steel scales, they can be quite effective even against modern handguns (albeit you add some weight to make them thick enough to be bullet-proof).

I like them.  A cheap and easily produced armor for a proud but somewhat nomadic group.


Ron Losey is right by many miles. Now, I may be a bit biased because I love Polish and Russian scale-mail armors, but I think some of the Rohirrim would look excellent in scale! And to prove Ron's point, here are some pictures of Dragon Skin armor. Dragon Skin armor is a type of bullet proof vest that uses steel scales, like a reptiles, to absorb the blow and stop a bullet. It has been tested against heavy steel core 7.62mm Kalashnikov rounds and taken no damage.

Dragon-Skin after being fired at with multiple rounds - all bullets absorbed
(http://therunagatesclub.com/blogimages/DRAGONSKINTEST.jpg)

"One only has to see the witnessed video shoots that were conducted showing Dragon Skin armor taking over 40 rounds of indigenous military ball ammunition from an AK-47 at 20 feet and then another 150 rounds of 9mm from 10 feet from a sub-machine gun - on top of the first impacted points - WITHOUT ANY FAILURE, to see that Dragon Skin is far superior to the current system in use by the Army."
-Pinnacle Armor CEO, Murray Neal

Scale mail is definitely some pretty powerful stuff.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 13, 2007, 09:35:37 PM
@Merlkir:
Yeah, Tolkien is too vague when it comes to Haradrim descriptions. We took some liberties with Rohan already; they're not all wearing green gear, so I don't see why the Haradrim shouldn't have more colors besides red and gold. I think the trick is to make them look coherent as a culture, even if we add diffrent details for diffrent tribes.

What bothers me in the Linothorax is the obvious Hellenic look about it. As cool as it may look, it has obvious references to ancient Greece attached to it, which I think look completely out of place here. I'd rather see them wearing lion and leopard skins over a simple tunic or leather armor. I really liked your first concepts for the Haradrim, and I guess I was expecting more along those lines :P

@Boosh:
We already have Rohirrim wearing scale ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 14, 2007, 07:34:00 AM
DaBlade: it's my bad then. I've always thought of the corsairs a bit of greek looking. The pikemen and all. Haradrim are said to have close relations with Umbar so...I think I thought about those thoraxes as sort of southron military standard for naval and land combat. In many variations.
And yes, it was used by the greeks. But to me it always reminds the byzantians, parthians and scythians too ;)

edit: I might've been also confused by J.Howe's paintings who also paints Southrons and black numenorians very greek looking.

I've been sketching up some ideas for the black snakes and they are definitely more..I don't know...turkish? like ghulam cavalry maybe. Lamellar, some padded armor over it, mail ventails and those funny pointy helmets ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 14, 2007, 12:02:30 PM
Yeah, I've discussed the Corsairs look with Ancientwanker before. If you give them a Hoplon looking shield and a pike, they start looking a bit like Hoplites :P But I think we managed to get away from the ancient Greek look they might had at first.

I'm eager to see those black snakes :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 15, 2007, 12:48:18 PM
OK. I finally got my hands on the extended movie DVDs. And I'm watching the bonus DVDs and docummentaries for the first time. It's awesome! :D I really want to work at WETA. Or own WETA. That would be grand :D

Lots of good ideas you don't really catch in the movies, but it's shown in the bonuses..
Inspired me a lot.

I also drew another harad guy today at work. I have about 6 I haven't shown yet..I want to color them all, but it takes time, so bear with me ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: buminabox on August 16, 2007, 05:25:55 PM
something like this:
http://mojette.deviantart.com/art/muslim-soldier-B-59597427 (http://mojette.deviantart.com/art/muslim-soldier-B-59597427)
and this:
http://mojette.deviantart.com/art/muslim-soldier-A-59597641 (http://mojette.deviantart.com/art/muslim-soldier-A-59597641)

could be used for those Muslim/middle eastern-looking factions...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 16, 2007, 08:43:03 PM
thanks, that guy is insanely good. Assassin's Creed. Hm.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ebu Deyyus on August 17, 2007, 09:55:51 AM
why are harads being portrayed ALL black skinned? even if they resemble arabs/persians/indians note that there were also white people in those nations..i must also say that royal saber(AKA yataghan) should be given to easterlings not haradrim.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on August 17, 2007, 09:59:12 AM
I always thought of the haradrim as more like indians than arabs.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 17, 2007, 10:25:22 AM
I actually thought both - you know, all the different nations down south..
And partly I think that's what people think when you say "swarth with long black hair". which is the best description we have, right?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 17, 2007, 11:00:06 PM
Could maybe someone make a list of all NPCs ? Evil will do for the moment. With their allegiances (what faction do they belong). I don't know if it can be ripped of a file or something..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 18, 2007, 09:42:28 AM
I'm just watching the apendices DVDs and there are some freakin' cool Haradrim designs they didn't use, because somebody in Newline didn't want them to look african. They'd be perfect for the far harad guys. I wonder if there's a way to extract them of the DVD  :-\
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ebu Deyyus on August 18, 2007, 11:27:27 AM
screenshot is one way :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 18, 2007, 11:41:47 AM
screenshot is one way :green:

yem, but there's really SO many! you wouldn't believe..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 18, 2007, 11:54:09 AM
Thanks for that guy, Buminabox, he's a superb artist!

If we don't make a version of this guy as a Harad leader, I'm gonna commit a very painful suicide and it will be you guys to blame :D

http://mojette.deviantart.com/art/Commander-62630262 (http://mojette.deviantart.com/art/Commander-62630262)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 18, 2007, 12:32:19 PM
That's just awesome :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 18, 2007, 02:00:03 PM
Absolutely awesome! Outstanding detail! Who is this mojette guy? Is this being used in any game?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 18, 2007, 02:12:47 PM
Absolutely awesome! Outstanding detail! Who is this mojette guy? Is this being used in any game?

it's for Assassin's Creed game :) don't know the guy, but his work is awesome.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on August 20, 2007, 03:19:57 PM
Merlkir? I have a very heavy-to-put-in-practice suggestion for you. Feel free to ignore it of course.

I really like the painted panels you made for the many cities, and for a few events as well. They're really nice.

I was wondering...
what if the style of all those panels was that of a "pencil" drawn, black and white (or rather, "brown and sepia") sketches?

That would give them a uniform style, and one that would keep itself at a safe disance from the rest of the (3D) graphics of the game, if you know what I mean.

It is a style which, personally, I adore. I find it elegant and sober, yet descriptive, and very evocative.

I understand that I am suggesting a total rework of some... how many, 20 images? which are good already.
But, if you had a few sketches ready already, and it the idea tickles your creativity...
Or maybe you can just keep that option in mind for the future, keeping proper sketches you might put down, when you have an occasion to.

Otherwise just ignore this.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 20, 2007, 04:04:12 PM
Hell no, I love the coloured art panels, and revamping them all just because you like one style better than the other, is a lot to ask for.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on August 21, 2007, 05:31:39 AM
mtarini has a valid point.  In computer graphics, which tend to lack depth, a painting can look just like a window.  Something that looks more "drawn" - more stylized in some way - and less like the supposedly realistic-looking graphics would not be a bad idea.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 21, 2007, 09:07:18 AM
I considered that option. And decided no to go that way. My pencil skills are more centered to characters. Landscapes are new to me. I prefer the digital way, which is 1) faster 2) looks better than my pencil landscapes. And since I painted quite a few, I don't feel like redoing it all.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 21, 2007, 10:05:51 AM
Huzzah!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on August 21, 2007, 10:37:03 AM
I had you worried for a moment, eh, Father Chains? ;)

I considered that option. And decided no to go that way.

Fair enough. I understand.
(clarification: I was assuming that the "pencil" drawings would have been done with a graphics tablet)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 21, 2007, 10:50:27 AM
even sketching with a tablet ain't pretty ;) trust me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 21, 2007, 01:16:59 PM
Pissin' my breeches, I was.

And now I'm going to get a few hours of sleep before returning to the academical institution tomorrow. Only have to classes of altogether 90 minutes, so I'll need all the rest I can get  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 21, 2007, 08:42:49 PM
hm. Sleeping OT?

It's bloody 4:42 AM here. Work. Sucks. For two months, 6-7 hours of sleep when I'm used to 10 :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 26, 2007, 01:13:51 AM
for all the texturers here, this page has a bloody insane amount of fabric photos..

http://www.housefabric.com/defaultproduct.asp (http://www.housefabric.com/defaultproduct.asp)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 26, 2007, 09:23:24 AM
Random doodle update! :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Captains.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/DwarvenScout.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/VariagHelmets.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/KnightImpaled.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/SwanKnight.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 26, 2007, 10:19:50 AM
I am in awe. The Kataphrakt helmets are beautiful. My favourites must be the bottom left, bottom middle and the top third from the left.

The bearded fellow in the rain with the Monty Python French helmet, he a Dwarf or Man?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 26, 2007, 10:28:29 AM
uhm, I forgot to put the description in the picture. It's a dwarven scout.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Sunhawken on August 26, 2007, 11:03:42 AM
Holy hell you are a awesome paintist  Wish i could take lessons from you.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 26, 2007, 12:04:45 PM
yeah, I'll make big bucks teaching people how to draw orcs and dwarves :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 26, 2007, 12:08:21 PM
Did he just call you an awesome pianist?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 26, 2007, 12:11:21 PM
I thought he meant paintist. Whatever that is :) Painting artist?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Alaknar on August 26, 2007, 02:00:35 PM
Excellent!

I mostly liked the Swan Knight and the Fountain Guard's helmet. Really beautiful.

How about some more elvish drawings?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 26, 2007, 02:12:34 PM
Elves have been killed in his paintings, I'm craving for Dwarves!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on August 26, 2007, 03:37:49 PM
That Dwarf is awesome, Merlkir. You really managed to pull off the rain effect.

The other's stuff's good too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 26, 2007, 06:43:02 PM
Yeah, that dwarf looks great :) I like the fountain guard helm and the DA knight too, good job ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 27, 2007, 06:54:35 AM
I have some elves, but they're waiting in the line for coloring I think...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 27, 2007, 10:28:51 AM
Am I the only one loving the Kataphrakt stabbing that Gondorian fellow? Just checking :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 27, 2007, 10:46:00 AM
oh, I DO love it, that's why I posted it ;) it's so little I didn't even notice I scanned it with one of the other pics..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Juice on August 28, 2007, 03:45:54 AM
yeah, I'll make big bucks teaching people how to draw orcs and dwarves :D


I would pay for that ;)

Btw, nice work! I especially like the dwarf and the one where kataphrakt pierces the gondor dude.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Bloid on August 28, 2007, 12:55:58 PM
The art is great, but there are no such things as "fountain guards" in the book iirc.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Alaknar on August 29, 2007, 01:23:29 AM
Bah! There's no such thing as a lone hero rambling around Middle-earth, gathering his troop and eventually destroying the Sauron's/Free People's forces almost all by himself in the book, right? Or did I miss something? ;)

Besides, the existence of a unit like Fountain Guard - an elite unit made of veterans only - is very likely, don't you think?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 29, 2007, 02:50:27 AM
Well, we do have the Guards of the Citadel, there being an elite unit within the Citadel Guards is very likely. Maybe the First Company would be the elite? Or a separate company altogether.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on August 29, 2007, 06:53:27 AM
hm, it's true I took the idea from the movies. But from what A.Lee and J.Howe said in the docummentaries I understood there was a mention of them. Hm.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on August 29, 2007, 02:57:20 PM
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9534/aeiornhjaeilurhjcu9.png)


Al'ighty, I fixed it a little bit...and moved it here  :green:
(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/620/helmthingjq9.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 29, 2007, 03:06:16 PM
That helmet sure was pretty. It reminds me of the Elven Avengers from Middle-earth Online, though. Dark and... avenging, yet retaining a gracious leaf-like style.

I love the model, although the cheek guards are a bit off. They should be curved a bit more downwards, but apart from that it looks pretty good :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on August 29, 2007, 03:08:45 PM
That helmet sure was pretty. It reminds me of the Elven Avengers from Middle-earth Online, though. Dark and... avenging, yet retaining a gracious leaf-like style.

I love the model, although the cheek guards are a bit off. They should be curved a bit more downwards, but apart from that it looks pretty good :)

Thanks for the feedback ^^
I have a little trouble with curving, notice how the back isn't curved either?  :-\
The face plates should be a little easier though, I'll get to work ><!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okie Doke ^^  anymore and it would start clipping, though...
(http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1782/helmthinget7.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on August 29, 2007, 03:25:32 PM
It does look a lot better :)

If you're just starting out, maybe you should focus on simple stuff (while you get the hang of it), and then move on to more complex models as you improve your skills.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 29, 2007, 03:26:32 PM
Hang in there, you're as good as done with the piece anyhow. It'll turn out a real beaut after a little sweat.

Three other helmets I'd love to see on those evil faces, are the lower middle, lower extreme left and lower second from the right. Simple, elegant and terrifying.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on August 29, 2007, 03:30:14 PM
It does look a lot better :)

If you're just starting out, maybe you should focus on simple stuff (while you get the hang of it), and then move on to more complex models as you improve your skills.

Thanks, but I'm not too familiar with the book stuff, since I read the books a long time ago ><!
I'll just stick with whatever catches my eye ;)

Three other helmets I'd love to see on those evil faces, are the lower middle, lower extreme left and lower second from the right. Simple, elegant and terrifying.

Maybe you could circle them for me? xD
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on August 29, 2007, 03:50:56 PM
1, 3 and 4 from left to right.

Dang, that sounded so much simpler than my saying "the far extreme middle left of that pile of dried fish!".
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on August 29, 2007, 06:07:42 PM
And far simpler for me to comprehend ><!
I'll try when I have the time  :D

--------------------------------------------------------------------

okay  ???
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5664/helmthing2hk4.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 01, 2007, 10:56:55 AM
GW have released new gondorian figures ;)
I think they're not bad...different, but not bad.

(http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=259549)
(http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=259551)
(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/gondor/extras/preview/images/models2.jpg)
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=259551 (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=259551)
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=259549 (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=259549)


And..I know I encourage the "no plate armor" policy, but this still makes me drool terribly :D

(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/gondor/extras/preview/images/page1.jpg)

and this design of Dunedain rangers is just brilliant (me thinks.) I mean...I still like mine, but this is something I have also thought of..I wish I could get my hands on all these sourcebooks to view the paintings inside :(

(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/arnor/painting/rangers/gallery/images/ranger_art.jpg)
(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/arnor/preview/images/arnor_page_1.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 02, 2007, 09:58:54 AM
great dwarves!

(http://www.brookhursthobbies.com/images/other/Dwarvesv1.jpg)

and those are perfect Mirkwood elves! Even the feather plumed spearman..fabulous.

(http://www.brookhursthobbies.com/VendelElves.jpg)
(http://www.vendelminiatures.co.uk/Gallery/elves2.jpg)
(http://www.vendelminiatures.co.uk/Gallery/P1010018Copy.jpg)

http://www.vendelminiatures.co.uk/art/1759.jpg (http://www.vendelminiatures.co.uk/art/1759.jpg)
http://www.vendelminiatures.co.uk/Gallery/dwarfgthall.jpg (http://www.vendelminiatures.co.uk/Gallery/dwarfgthall.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 02, 2007, 10:14:46 AM
variag kataphrakt helmets!

(http://www.jollyrogerxxx.it/ferra10.jpg)
(http://www.jollyrogerxxx.it/ferra11.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 02, 2007, 10:25:06 AM
I want to store this one here as an inspiration for my black snakes..

http://www.artist-studio.co.uk/assets/images/gallery_images/tolkien/The%20Slayer.jpg (http://www.artist-studio.co.uk/assets/images/gallery_images/tolkien/The%20Slayer.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 02, 2007, 11:38:21 AM
I've also thought about this..since we're in a different world, it's tiring and boring to see those peasant vanilla tunics all the time..
Let's give the peasants more..ME and faction specific feeling:

rohan tunics :

(http://www.warofthering.net/quintessential/movieshots_ttt/toronto_rohanwomancostume.jpg)
(http://www.warofthering.net/quintessential/movieshots_ttt/toronto_rohanchildcostume.jpg)
(http://www.warofthering.net/quintessential/movieshots_ttt/toronto_rohanmancostume.jpg)

merchants and smiths can wear them, guards at cities would be likely wearing a tunic and a helmet inside the city, peasants and refugees have them...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on September 02, 2007, 12:43:18 PM
Ranger concepts are brilliant! I still prefer your furry ones, but the other concept would add for some variation. And the Ranger helmet is awesome. I've never been able to imagine the Grey Company wearing helmets of any kind. I just couldn't imagine the scarred, black-haired, grey-eyed bastards with helmets. But that helmet just... makes sense, you know?

The Mirkwood feather-plumed spearman is also a great concept. So is the Haradric slayer, with the crested helmet with the snake teeth.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 02, 2007, 01:48:08 PM
thanks :) it's nice to know someone actually comes here once in a while..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on September 02, 2007, 04:10:44 PM
You kidding me? If I've got 2 minutes in between classes, I come here before I go to TW ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 02, 2007, 06:08:36 PM
I like the Grey Company guy, but I think it wouldn't look the same without that grey cape. We need models with capes :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on September 02, 2007, 08:24:38 PM
Really love your artwork, and your ideas Merlkir.
Just should get better at giving feedback :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 03, 2007, 05:35:19 PM
OK, I had a go at trying to make the elf heads look more... elven. I changed one of the textures a bit.

(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6530/elfface01ut0.jpg)

How about that?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 03, 2007, 05:52:38 PM
Yay! Warhammer!  :green:
Yay! More stuff!  :green:
Yay! Improved Elves!  :green:
*update yet?* =3


Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 03, 2007, 10:41:47 PM
We'll have to wait for Ancientwanker for the update.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Oubliette on September 03, 2007, 11:06:04 PM
thanks :) it's nice to know someone actually comes here once in a while..

This is actually a thread I read with eager anticipation, only aside from saying 'Fantastic!' I don't really have enough knowledge of the works of Tolkien to make many significant comments.

Interesting concepts on the Mirkwood Elves, I think the current garb in-game could do with a more desaturated sober look to be honest (the bright green hoods spring to mind). I like the plumed spearmen. Those helmets with the same armour that Miriel wears wouldn't look bad at all. Not sure whether the cavalry versions are have the right feel for the Mirkwood Elves in TLD, but it might add a little flavour to their military to have a small skirmishing cavalry unit who can throw spears.

I support the different looks and versions for peasants, so they actually look like they belong to either Rohan or Gondor. I'm assuming this would make them actually belong to either faction as well. It would make sense after all for Rohan to start to dislike you rather quickly if you kept attacking their peasants.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 04, 2007, 12:13:44 AM
OK, I had a go at trying to make the elf heads look more... elven. I changed one of the textures a bit.
cool pic
How about that?

that's what I had in mind with the texture! just..the model needs to be fixed too :)
This is a head from Leaguer of Maedhros by Bryce. I hate the ears and the texture is just...pale and I don't like it much. But the profile is good! And the MOUTH IS SHUT!!!! That's my biggest issue with all MaB heads and we should do it too! :D

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5684/49322319od7.jpg)

edit: also, some of the 0.808 hairstyles would be good for elves.

edit II: Oubliette: thanks :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on September 04, 2007, 12:22:06 AM
Wouldn't make much sense to let the Silvan Elves have javelin-throwing cavalry, when they had the finest archers in Middle-earth. Letting them have light cavalry archers, though, would be quite awesome.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 04, 2007, 12:30:41 AM
As I hate horse archers for being too uncontrollable, I think the wood elves might use them ;) (ahhemm...along with better armored spearmen...ehemm. :))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on September 04, 2007, 01:32:52 AM
MOAR SPEARMEN!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 04, 2007, 02:12:49 AM
that's what I had in mind with the texture! just..the model needs to be fixed too :)
This is a head from Leaguer of Maedhros by Bryce. I hate the ears and the texture is just...pale and I don't like it much. But the profile is good! And the MOUTH IS SHUT!!!! That's my biggest issue with all MaB heads and we should do it too! :D

Yeah, the mouth shut is good :P

If we could use that model as a base for an elf head, I could work on the texture...

EDIT: I don't like that nose much...

************

Mirkwood spearmen should be using a new scale armor I made for them... I'll have to check them out.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 04, 2007, 02:24:30 AM

Yeah, the mouth shut is good :P

If we could use that model as a base for an elf head, I could work on the texture...

EDIT: I don't like that nose much...

************

Mirkwood spearmen should be using a new scale armor I made for them... I'll have to check them out.

- I like how the nose is sort of a hawk beak...but the nostrils are sort of weird..
- scale armor for mirkwood spearmen? show us, papa Blade! :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 04, 2007, 03:36:27 AM
It's nothing fancy :P

I used one of the new models for it.

(http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/1860/mirkwoodscale02jz6.jpg)

I guess just the upper tier spearmen are wearing it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 04, 2007, 04:15:52 AM
I would shorten the sleeves and the length of the scales overall and make a padding or a leather something visible under it. Would fit the model better. (it's quite short, so show just a little bit of lining down at the edge. The sleeves can be short, like a T-shirt..)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on September 04, 2007, 04:45:39 AM
Awesome scales :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 04, 2007, 07:04:22 AM
We don't have this skull like berserker helmet, do we? I like it ;)

(http://www.heldenshop.de/images/tobias/urukbueste.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 04, 2007, 07:10:43 AM
I would shorten the sleeves and the length of the scales overall and make a padding or a leather something visible under it. Would fit the model better. (it's quite short, so show just a little bit of lining down at the edge. The sleeves can be short, like a T-shirt..)

Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll see if I can make it look good.


We don't have this skull like berserker helmet, do we? I like it ;)
We have something similar, not quite the same.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on September 04, 2007, 07:30:29 AM
We have almost that exact helm and coloration thanks to Ursca iirc. There's a new uruk-hai helm like that and a matching hand shield.  Beyond the old rusty looking Paradox helms that is.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 04, 2007, 07:58:11 AM
ahha, I didn't know..


BTW: I've counted, and I have 15+ concepts for people, armor, weapons and such drawn waiting for coloring. I wonder if I should show you guy the lineart so I don't color a piece you despise for nothing. ;) it will also take quite long..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 05, 2007, 06:41:18 AM
Today's coloring of a "at work" piece :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/GuardAndSquite.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on September 05, 2007, 06:54:24 AM
Both look really nice. I like the warm colors on the Lebennin guy.

Yeah, that orc berserker thing was a surprise in the file ursca sent.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 05, 2007, 07:20:40 AM
yeah, the color scheme is inspired by Anke Eissman's pictures and the Lebennin emblem is taken from a site with heraldry :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on September 05, 2007, 07:43:29 AM
Yeah, the Lebennin guy is great. The Helmet's really nice. I like the ring greaves as well.

Here's a picture of the Berserker helm if you were interested;
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/urukhaihelmets.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 05, 2007, 07:55:13 AM
nice! Can't wait to play the baddies once the patch is out ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 05, 2007, 01:55:46 PM
Another quickie from today :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Swords%20of%20Westernesse.jpg)


those look great --aw
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 05, 2007, 03:07:37 PM
Very nice stuff from both of you :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Yoshiboy on September 05, 2007, 03:30:22 PM
Great stuff indeed!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 05, 2007, 04:35:56 PM
MIST!

Taken from the screenshots thread (doesn't seem like photoshopping to me..)
I know I could think of a couple of locations where we might use something like this..

http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=76810608qb1.jpg (http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=76810608qb1.jpg)
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8797/33858656kn2.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8797/33858656kn2.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on September 05, 2007, 10:08:09 PM
Ooh! Chilly! Looks like the mists on the shoreline of Anfalas in the morning! Either that or London Fog.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 06, 2007, 09:29:24 AM
nasty ;)

(http://maddwarfworkshop.com/Info%20Links/Gallery/the%20Images/Orc%20Weaponry.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on September 06, 2007, 12:30:43 PM
Oh, I'm LOVING that one!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 06, 2007, 02:53:05 PM
two interesting designs. I like the gondorians shield and the elf has a similar scale armor I have in a concept I haven't posted yet..

http://higherdepths.deviantart.com/art/Gondorian-Infantryman-36469858 (http://higherdepths.deviantart.com/art/Gondorian-Infantryman-36469858)
http://higherdepths.deviantart.com/art/Nandorin-Elf-31973396 (http://higherdepths.deviantart.com/art/Nandorin-Elf-31973396)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on September 08, 2007, 05:36:11 AM
I'm loving that shield, kite shields seem very Gondorian to me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MasacruTheArcher on September 08, 2007, 05:43:18 AM
Wow that archer looks so great :) !IT would be cool to wear that on desktop (800x600) :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mr.rivers on September 09, 2007, 06:38:06 PM
Merlkir, I just registered so I could tell you how impressive your art is. I come here once a day just to see if you've posted any new stuff. I honestly think you could do make a living off this if you talked to the right people.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 10, 2007, 07:09:36 AM
Merlkir, I just registered so I could tell you how impressive your art is. I come here once a day just to see if you've posted any new stuff. I honestly think you could do make a living off this if you talked to the right people.

thanks :) I won't post as much as before, school has started. But yeah, I have some more coming.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: buminabox on September 11, 2007, 05:00:21 PM
Just a random question:
How many concepts posted here are actually worked into the game?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 11, 2007, 06:56:20 PM
Just a random question:
How many concepts posted here are actually worked into the game?

I have no idea. :P Most concepts require new models, so it's a slow process to put them in, since we lack people working in that departement.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 11, 2007, 07:02:27 PM
I tried, but it's not really working out, since I play M&B in the lowest quality possible, so I have no idea what good quality stuff actually looks like ><!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 12, 2007, 05:47:22 AM
I'm TOTALLY LOVING the new orc heads! :DD my char is means as hell! I would still keep the old faces for snagas though. Suited them screwny bastards better..

edit: I also love the new dunedain horses and the shields!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 13, 2007, 01:40:17 PM
These are all from Walls of Konstantinia, I think the haradrim could use some nicely textured sabres and scimitars :) the kipchaq helmet would rule for the easterlings..

(http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1070/klcuz1.jpg)(http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/2250/sultannklcke6.jpg)
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7035/kpcak1wr9.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mr.rivers on September 13, 2007, 01:57:21 PM
Wow, those are great...the helmet in paticular, and the easterlings need some new models anyway.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 13, 2007, 06:54:34 PM
Yeah, nice stuff.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on September 14, 2007, 09:08:13 AM
Talking about Woses in the old man thread reminded me of some great pictures of Ghan-buri-ghan from Battle games in Middle earth.
My scanner's broken, so I had to take a photo.  ???

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/ghan-buri-ghan.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/fullghan.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/ghanrunning.jpg)

Edit: Also, Wose miniatures. (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=305979&orignav=305979&ParentID=259535&GameNav=9) Not nearly as cool, but worth a look.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on September 15, 2007, 06:05:02 AM
Yeah, those are cool looking woses. Normally I dont think about woses much but...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 15, 2007, 12:05:11 PM
Normally I dont think about woses much...

who the hell does ? :D :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on September 15, 2007, 08:34:40 PM
Normally I dont think about woses much...

who the hell does ? :D :D

It would be a sign of severe mental illness if you did.

I mean, even more severe than modding computer games as a hobby.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Meloncat on September 17, 2007, 12:20:28 PM
I know I came a bit late for the Linothorax Discussion, but I thought I'd supply a few more contemporary to this setting's examples. It's possible a different style to them (Instead of the white linen look) may be more acceptable. What's somewhat ironic is that they are more often found on Medieval Rus and Byzantines, which at least to me, come across as more Rohirrim or Gondorian.

But the truth is, since Varangians is like Variag, it's possible the Varags would be more of that "European Slav Meets Steppe" look. I am afraid I was a bit lazy and just copied the links from another post I had elsewhere, so not all of these feature the 'leather strips' that fall down the shoulder or waist. But it was a fashion of this era, just not in the Greek style as depicted in the past. Which is too bad, because I loved that haradrim with it. :D

(http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6087/khersonnesjc8.th.jpg) (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khersonnesjc8.jpg)


If it doesn't change your minds, that's quite alright. Maybe there's some other styles there. But if it does, maybe having them be leather strips, with a different style to them than the linothorax (They seem a bit shorter in medieval times) will help out. http://www.soldiers-russia.com/new_soldiers/old_russia/pb602_wt.jpg something like this, possibly.

I should also mention a -great- site of really amazing Russian artists, it may offer some great ideas. There's not a lot of early Medieval European, but a lot of Medieval Rus, and Islam.

http://tin-soldiers.pl.ru/

Besides the main page, visit the Russian Vityaz page, which has what I think are the best models there.


I'm afraid I haven't really recalled what the direction is with the Easterlings and Variags, but maybe one can be more Steppe like, the other more Rus-like?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 17, 2007, 12:55:00 PM
I've tried to suggest somewhat varangian/rus look for the easterlings and...I don't really know what the response was. I think it would need to be "eviled down". Made rough, black, dirty and evil. Cause I've already used some of the designs and shit for the dwarves.
Also, the heap of links doesn't work for me, there are pics of some girls O_O

edit: the miniatures are cool ! :)

this is perfect

(http://www.soldiers-russia.com/kolobob/images/ar05-9.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Meloncat on September 17, 2007, 01:06:21 PM
Ugh, I thought that'd happen. That site lets me upload a lot, but if I try and direct link, it's girls.

Well save em while you can, I'll take it down and upload the choice ones.

(http://img141.imagevenue.com/loc147/th_56071_khersonnes_122_147lo.jpg) (http://img141.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56071_khersonnes_122_147lo.jpg)(http://img121.imagevenue.com/loc1048/th_56077_Kiev_-_kievandismounteddruzhinim0_122_1048lo.jpg) (http://img121.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56077_Kiev_-_kievandismounteddruzhinim0_122_1048lo.jpg)

Test to see if this works.

(http://img163.imagevenue.com/loc1076/th_56189_Kiev_-_kievanpalaceguardsmenhp3_122_1076lo.jpg) (http://img163.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56189_Kiev_-_kievanpalaceguardsmenhp3_122_1076lo.jpg)(http://img167.imagevenue.com/loc1171/th_56194_Kievrus_X_XI_Left_122_1171lo.jpg) (http://img167.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56194_Kievrus_X_XI_Left_122_1171lo.jpg)(http://img185.imagevenue.com/loc471/th_56200_Kievrus_X_XI_Right_122_471lo.jpg) (http://img185.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56200_Kievrus_X_XI_Right_122_471lo.jpg)(http://img158.imagevenue.com/loc690/th_56209_nevskii2_122_690lo.jpg) (http://img158.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56209_nevskii2_122_690lo.jpg)
(http://img41.imagevenue.com/loc1189/th_56215_Novgorod_-_histnovgorodratnikid1_122_1189lo.jpg) (http://img41.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56215_Novgorod_-_histnovgorodratnikid1_122_1189lo.jpg)(http://img159.imagevenue.com/loc1133/th_56220_Novgorod_-_histnovgoroddismounteduep1_122_1133lo.jpg) (http://img159.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56220_Novgorod_-_histnovgoroddismounteduep1_122_1133lo.jpg)(http://img25.imagevenue.com/loc891/th_56225_Novgorod_-_histnovgorodsotniksr6_122_891lo.jpg) (http://img25.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56225_Novgorod_-_histnovgorodsotniksr6_122_891lo.jpg)
(http://img21.imagevenue.com/loc723/th_56230_Novgorod_-_histnovgorodurbanspearmqs0_122_723lo.jpg) (http://img21.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56230_Novgorod_-_histnovgorodurbanspearmqs0_122_723lo.jpg)(http://img182.imagevenue.com/loc25/th_56236_Novgorod_-_histnovgorodurbanspearmqs0_122_25lo.jpg) (http://img182.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56236_Novgorod_-_histnovgorodurbanspearmqs0_122_25lo.jpg)(http://img158.imagevenue.com/loc664/th_56243_Novgorod_-_russianwarrioroz3_122_664lo.jpg) (http://img158.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56243_Novgorod_-_russianwarrioroz3_122_664lo.jpg)
(http://img155.imagevenue.com/loc922/th_56425_Rushelmetearly12thc_122_922lo.jpg) (http://img155.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56425_Rushelmetearly12thc_122_922lo.jpg)(http://img149.imagevenue.com/loc722/th_56430_RUSSIA_-_AN1_122_722lo.jpg) (http://img149.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56430_RUSSIA_-_AN1_122_722lo.jpg)(http://img106.imagevenue.com/loc1198/th_56435_RUSSIA_-_AN-2_122_1198lo.jpg) (http://img106.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56435_RUSSIA_-_AN-2_122_1198lo.jpg)(http://img12.imagevenue.com/loc861/th_56442_RUSSIA_-_AN-3_122_861lo.jpg) (http://img12.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56442_RUSSIA_-_AN-3_122_861lo.jpg)
(http://img5.imagevenue.com/loc1004/th_56453_RUSSIA_-_AN-4_122_1004lo.jpg) (http://img5.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56453_RUSSIA_-_AN-4_122_1004lo.jpg)(http://img125.imagevenue.com/loc1069/th_56461_RUSSIA_-_Before_the_Rus_122_1069lo.jpg) (http://img125.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56461_RUSSIA_-_Before_the_Rus_122_1069lo.jpg)(http://img156.imagevenue.com/loc1078/th_56466_RUSSIA_-_Cavalry_122_1078lo.jpg) (http://img156.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56466_RUSSIA_-_Cavalry_122_1078lo.jpg)
(http://img44.imagevenue.com/loc1164/th_56472_RUSSIA_-_Cavalry_CHarge_122_1164lo.jpg) (http://img44.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56472_RUSSIA_-_Cavalry_CHarge_122_1164lo.jpg)(http://img167.imagevenue.com/loc784/th_56479_RUSSIA_-_Cavalry_two_122_784lo.jpg) (http://img167.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56479_RUSSIA_-_Cavalry_two_122_784lo.jpg)(http://img134.imagevenue.com/loc258/th_56482_RUSSIA_-_Chernye_Russians_122_258lo.jpg) (http://img134.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=56482_RUSSIA_-_Chernye_Russians_122_258lo.jpg)



Ignore the ugly Hat. It is a sneaky hat.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 17, 2007, 01:52:33 PM
out of randomness....

(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1825/untitled12ov7.png)

 :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 17, 2007, 01:53:55 PM
out of randomness....

(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1825/untitled12ov7.png)

 :green:

sort of moria wargriderish...hate the spikes though ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 17, 2007, 02:10:09 PM
I knew there was something wrong with those ><!
it just seemed to fit at the time this morning  :-\
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 17, 2007, 02:26:29 PM
just make them bigger..and sort of crooked...maybe like flat goat horns? make them go at the sides or something ;)

BTW: who's your daddy, now?! :D I love the new version's models. The surcoated mail will be perfect :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/screen1.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on September 17, 2007, 03:51:02 PM
OOOH! that looks pretty. I is happy and can't wait for new concept art ideas.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 17, 2007, 07:00:17 PM
Is that gonna be for the Fountain Court dudes?  :D
I seriously can't tell between them and my Tower Guards in the heat of battle...what's the difference between them anyway?  ???
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 17, 2007, 07:30:29 PM
Thats in the new version? I wouldn't think Big A would put something that fantasy in.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Lanky on September 18, 2007, 01:34:37 AM
You don't see them that often. Generals and special characters sometimes wear them and they don't feel that out of place.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 18, 2007, 02:10:08 AM
Thats in the new version? I wouldn't think Big A would put something that fantasy in.

fantasy? :D that's teutonic winged/horned great helm. Quite accurate :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Yogi on September 18, 2007, 02:47:14 AM
Is that gonna be for the Fountain Court dudes?  :D
I seriously can't tell between them and my Tower Guards in the heat of battle...what's the difference between them anyway?  ???

I'd like the Fountain Court Guards to carry a spear looking like the orc sticker. The Citadel Guards have that in FATW and it makes them really distinctive.

Also, I've notices the Tower Guards Knight have Fountain Guard Armour, when they should have Citadel Guard Armour.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 18, 2007, 02:55:33 AM
Is that gonna be for the Fountain Court dudes?  :D
I seriously can't tell between them and my Tower Guards in the heat of battle...what's the difference between them anyway?  ???

I'd like the Fountain Court Guards to carry a spear looking like the orc sticker. The Citadel Guards have that in FATW and it makes them really distinctive.

Also, I've notices the Tower Guards Knight have Fountain Guard Armour, when they should have Citadel Guard Armour.

we really have to make those two right equipwise. (black/white winged helmets and all.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 18, 2007, 06:29:05 AM
al'ighty....

(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/6546/untitled13hz6.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 18, 2007, 06:54:08 AM
I've had something like this in mind. Mind you, this was drawn with a mouse! that's why it's so crappy :D about 5 minutes..

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WargriderHelm.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 18, 2007, 02:18:19 PM
 :shock:
If I drew a fotress with a mouse, you'd all think it was a rat cage  ???

btw, is it mandatory to make all shapes into triangles?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 18, 2007, 04:45:59 PM
Yes it has to be in tris.

Edit: Speaking of which heres a helmet, that looks variag or orcish.
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5985/untitledkb0.png)
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/849/untitled2jn6.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 18, 2007, 05:24:20 PM
Definately orcish =3
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 18, 2007, 05:30:55 PM
It doesn't feel exactly orcish, but it definately does not look like something good guys would wear.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 19, 2007, 12:53:39 AM
It's really tempting for me to put a flower-pot texture on it :D :D
An orc steals a flower pot. He cuts the holes for the mouth and eyes. He wears it into battle, proud of his new gorgeous helmet. Then he finds out that clay is not very protective.

;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 19, 2007, 02:52:16 AM
this is nice :)

(http://perso.orange.fr/tuatha/Protections/Gondor.shield.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 19, 2007, 10:37:37 AM
It's really tempting for me to put a flower-pot texture on it :D :D
An orc steals a flower pot. He cuts the holes for the mouth and eyes. He wears it into battle, proud of his new gorgeous helmet. Then he finds out that clay is not very protective.

;)

Arrhh! Me does not see how yonder helmet looks like a flower pot. I'll texture it later if ye want it, landlubber!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 19, 2007, 12:03:22 PM
Yarrrrrr. It be textured.
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1536/untitledtj2.png)
(The white stuff is the M&B head.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on September 19, 2007, 01:22:15 PM
Nice!

But, let me repeat a suggestion that I made somewhere else already:
cover the eye holes with two polygons, and color them (in the texture, or per vertex) black
with a alpha of around 128 (on 255), so that the part of the face that will be seen through
the eyelids will be realistically darkened, as if by shadows. Then remember to activate "blending" in the material.

I never actually tried this, so this must be tested, but keeping the fingers crossed it should work and look nice.


Side note: the same applies to most closed helms. For example, similarly, even in this helm, one could imagine to darken the bottom
part of the wearer's head as well (the mouth and chin). The idea is to "extend" the bottom
part of the helm with black semitranparent polygons, that fade to fully transparent at their bottom, so that the part of the head immediately
below the helm is realistically darkened by it. Unfortunately, this here can't be applied because the bottom part is too open and you
would see the extra polygons unduly darkening also whatever is in the background of the head. But, in other, more closed helms, something
similar to this should work.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 19, 2007, 02:59:39 PM
I feel like making a bucket helm now....
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 19, 2007, 03:04:11 PM
Mtarini, most of it is over my head. But if you want I could send you the model.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 19, 2007, 03:32:15 PM
I made a bucket  :green:
(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/8594/untitled15gn3.png)

It's not clipping, it's just for some reason, I can see the head template from the outside. Is my version of  "Wings 3D" outdated (like if this happens to older versions) or does my computer just suck?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 19, 2007, 03:40:01 PM
Are you sure the bucket is just not big enough?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Duuvian on September 19, 2007, 05:34:37 PM
Hehehe orc snagas would look good with a bucket as a helmet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 19, 2007, 06:33:23 PM
No, it was fine when I made it, but it started showing when I opened it again. I tried reopening several times, but still some triangles show.
I was going to check again, but now it's fine, so here's another screen shot

(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8817/untitled16co7.png)

needs a little more work on the front, but it's just for fun xD
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 20, 2007, 04:12:43 PM
Sorry for the double post but....need a little help ><!

 :green:
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/419/untitled19tu7.png)

(http://www.fl-tw.com/Minas-Tirith/minas_tirith_ao.jpg)

How do you hollow out the middle and also make those little fence-like designs?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 20, 2007, 04:59:29 PM
I think you just went at it the wrong way. If you had blender you could delete those faces to hollow it out, but sadly wings won't let you.

You might need to start over.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 20, 2007, 05:36:23 PM
Is it better  :shock:
I mean, it took me a while to familiarize myself with "Wings", but if this other thing is easier to use and make better quality items, I might switch  :-\
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stemmers? on September 20, 2007, 08:33:10 PM
Um, if you're looking for a 3d modeling program that's EASIER...Blender might not be your best choice.

Blender is like the polar opposite of Wings. From what I remember of Wings, it had like 3 buttons and most of its interface is hidden. When you open up Blender, on the other hand, you basically get what looks like an airplane panel. It's overwhelming at first -- you have to learn what parts you can safely ignore when you're learning how to use it.

That said, I found Blender to be really a powerful modeling tool after I got the hang of it (I was taking a 3d animation class at the time). I would NEVER touch it again for doing animation, though. For me, the modeling aspect was great, but the animation suite was a real uphill battle.

Never used it for texturing. UV unwrapping scares the hell out of me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 20, 2007, 08:50:54 PM
lol, maybe I should hold a vote ><!
But still....any help on hollowing out the insides or should I abandon this project altogether?
Or at least a way to hide it =/
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 20, 2007, 08:54:30 PM
I originally learned with wings but moved to blender because I detest how in wings you have to always right click. In my opinion blender is better, but some people say other wise.

Download blender, read a tutorial or two. Decide what you like better.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 21, 2007, 01:32:06 AM
Depending on what these buildings are for, that level of detail might not be necessary. Does the player enter the building? will there be archers firing from the balconies? You can do A LOT with alpha channels and if you don't really need to go in there, with texture itself too..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 21, 2007, 04:13:05 PM
Well, I was thinking of helping out with improving the inside of Minas Tirith sine sieges are in consideration. So basically, yes, archers would be able to shoot from the towers, there can be staircases in the inside. I've fought in several siege battles in the new version and some A.I troops actually use the stairs other than just running into a wall hoping an elevator would appear in front of them.
Although, I don't really want to make an exact replica of the pic I got there, I'll probably replace the fences with a plain gaurdrail or something, I just wanted to see if I can hollow out the inside without making it look wierd and clippy.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Albino on September 21, 2007, 08:55:11 PM
Hey, need anything made? I'll have some spare time this weekend, to make some models.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 21, 2007, 09:53:43 PM
work on my tower plz xD

-------------------------------------

Second attempt on towers....
(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9857/untitled22bk5.png)

those two thingy-ma-bobbers sticking out on either side indicated where i picture the wall would be

comments and concerns please?  :(
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 24, 2007, 08:54:27 AM
Some photos from czech Minas Tirith battle:

I imagine the elves might use tents like these ;)

(http://4x4.ath.cx/lenka/fotky/drevo/070923mt/img00008.jpg)

Orc camp ;)

(http://4x4.ath.cx/lenka/fotky/drevo/070923mt/img00094.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 24, 2007, 02:52:46 PM
Some nice orcs and men-orcs :)

(http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/wyatt/gather.jpg)

I've never seen this mattock wielding dwarf by A.Lee before!

(http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/lee/G_Lee57.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on September 25, 2007, 01:03:09 AM
Some nice orcs and men-orcs :)

Kinda look more Haradic to me...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on September 25, 2007, 08:55:06 AM
I've never seen this mattock wielding dwarf by A.Lee before!

(http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/lee/G_Lee57.jpg)

You really haven't? It's in every copy of The Hobbit I've ever seen :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 25, 2007, 09:04:40 AM
well, my copy of Hobbit has czech illustrations and I haven't bought any other copies..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on September 25, 2007, 12:03:24 PM
Well, if you're an example of "czech illustrations", then they can't be bad...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 25, 2007, 02:04:28 PM
Well, if you're an example of "czech illustrations", then they can't be bad...

hehe, not really, they were rather fairy-taleish, but still nice in their own way :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stemmers? on September 25, 2007, 10:01:59 PM
That mattock looks looks seriously ineffective as a weapon of war, unless he's using it to dig a ditch or something. One with a more "pick-like" end would be a great inclusion to the mod, though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 25, 2007, 10:04:32 PM
They're dwarves, they'll be well enough on their own with fists and no armor in war  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 26, 2007, 01:49:02 AM
That mattock looks looks seriously ineffective as a weapon of war, unless he's using it to dig a ditch or something. One with a more "pick-like" end would be a great inclusion to the mod, though.

If you sharpen it, it's like an axe, only 90 degrees turned ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on September 26, 2007, 02:13:41 AM
Although peasants have been known to use them in combat (also true of golf clubs), the mattock is a poor weapon at best.  An axe blade is at least in line with the angle of attack.  A mattock will hang, glance off, and every other possible design flaw that a weapon can demonstrate.

Unless somebody was really communicating that the dwarves were out there fighting with their digging tools (next guy over had a shovel), it's probably out of place.  Even the shovel makes a better weapon.  (Sharpened trenching shovels were quite popular as battle axes in the trenches of the First World War.)

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 26, 2007, 02:38:42 AM
the dwarves of Iron Mountains were said to use their mattocks in the battle of Five Armies, probably because they've been called in a hurry and had little time to equip better..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on September 26, 2007, 03:10:09 AM
the dwarves of Iron Mountains were said to use their mattocks in the battle of Five Armies, probably because they've been called in a hurry and had little time to equip better..

Peasants have been known to use them ... that probably applies to dwarven miners as well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stemmers? on September 26, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
A lot of the pictures of mattocks I see have a pick on one end for breaking up rock or especially hard patches of ground. That would be a lot more effective than that broad head. Some even seem to have prongs like a lucerne hammer.

Speaking of lucerne hammers...are they out of our time period? I really like the way they look, and an orc armed with one would be pretty terrifying.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Papist on September 26, 2007, 09:50:00 AM
A mattock, by definition, is supposed to have one side flat, like in the picture, and the other side like a pick.  Otherwise it is simply a hoe.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: rider on September 27, 2007, 08:50:56 AM
Are you sure? I remember the Iron Dwarves in Five Armies like heavily armed, with good mails and stuff. Not likely they'd have mattocks then..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on September 27, 2007, 09:00:48 AM
A mattock, by definition, is supposed to have one side flat, like in the picture, and the other side like a pick.  Otherwise it is simply a hoe.

The difference between a mattock and a hoe is a question of weight.  One is a tool for striking with substantial force, the other just for turning over relatively loose soil.

Often as not, mattock heads are paired with either a pick or axe head ... modern industrial picks are usually classified "mattock-pick".  A person using one as a weapon would probably use the pick or axe side of the head rather than the hoe.

And the pole-axe/pole-hammer in general (i.e. the "Lucerne hammers" ... a bunch of poleaxes found near Lucerne, Switzerland, mostly shorter stuff obviously designed for mounted use) could exist in the tech level of Tolkien's Middle Earth.  Although they really only became common in Europe after the large-scale appearance of brigandine and partial plate armors, examples of such do date back much earlier.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on September 27, 2007, 09:15:09 AM
Yeah but here is where fantasy weapons meet real world weapons.  It's like debating the properties of mithril or the "steel longbows" of numenor.   The dwarves did bring mattocks and shortswords to the battle of the five armies. In fantasy games (especially tolkienish ones) you can often find the "war mattock", which is a two handed militarized version of the mattock.  I would assume that the mattocks were some war customized variant of the tool. 

Axes, shortswords, shortbows and mattocks. Those are classic tolkien dwarf weapons.

Non tolkien dwarves also like crossbows and hammers. I dont know of any reference to tolkien dwarves and hammers though.. maybe...Certainly not crossbows (only the corsairs know the secret techniques.  ;))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: rider on September 27, 2007, 10:23:48 AM
Lol. Remove the skill from players then. For I don't want to be an Elvish Corsair or something similar... :P

But indeed, you could include the steel longbows and these special numenorean shortswords and take out all this pointless native content.:D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Papist on September 27, 2007, 11:37:20 AM
I concede Ron, the mattock definition is indeed the broad side of the tool.  I'd always just called the whole thing a mattock, pick side and all.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 27, 2007, 12:05:42 PM
Yeah but here is where fantasy weapons meet real world weapons.  It's like debating the properties of mithril or the "steel longbows" of numenor.   The dwarves did bring mattocks and shortswords to the battle of the five armies. In fantasy games (especially tolkienish ones) you can often find the "war mattock", which is a two handed militarized version of the mattock.  I would assume that the mattocks were some war customized variant of the tool. 

Axes, shortswords, shortbows and mattocks. Those are classic tolkien dwarf weapons.

Non tolkien dwarves also like crossbows and hammers. I dont know of any reference to tolkien dwarves and hammers though.. maybe...Certainly not crossbows (only the corsairs know the secret techniques.  ;))

exactly. As a quick search on wiki proves (and don't pick on wiki, it's right this time ;))

Quote
Dwarves were famous for using axes and mattocks in battle. However, as seen in The Hobbit, they also used swords, shields and bows. The Dwarves of the Iron Hills, in addition to mattocks, carried shields slung on their backs, with short swords as secondary weapons. Unlike in other fantasy settings, there is no mention of Tolkien's Dwarves using war hammers; these weapons are used by the Olog-hai trolls instead.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 27, 2007, 01:18:56 PM
I don't think hammers would be out of place in their hands though, seeing the'd use them for their works. A military version would make some sense, me thinks...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Yogi on September 27, 2007, 01:54:10 PM
Yeah but here is where fantasy weapons meet real world weapons.  It's like debating the properties of mithril or the "steel longbows" of numenor.   The dwarves did bring mattocks and shortswords to the battle of the five armies. In fantasy games (especially tolkienish ones) you can often find the "war mattock", which is a two handed militarized version of the mattock.  I would assume that the mattocks were some war customized variant of the tool. 

Axes, shortswords, shortbows and mattocks. Those are classic tolkien dwarf weapons.

Non tolkien dwarves also like crossbows and hammers. I dont know of any reference to tolkien dwarves and hammers though.. maybe...Certainly not crossbows (only the corsairs know the secret techniques.  ;))

Regarding those steel bows... In India they used steel bows, not crossbows but ordinary bows made out of steel. AFAIK they were not deadlier than ordianary bows, but somewhat easier to keep stored for a long time. Knowing how Tolkien associated machinery with Evil, I'd say the Numenorean steel bow was an ordinary bow made of high quality steel, just like the Indian steel bows. If so, we can safely leave crossbows entirely out of Middle Earth (since they're never mentioned) or if we really want them in, give them to Isengard or Dwarves.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on September 27, 2007, 01:56:49 PM
Hear, hear!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ollieh on September 27, 2007, 03:31:26 PM
Who needs crossbows...
Anyway, anyone confirm are dwarves possible to make in .892 module system?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 27, 2007, 04:54:42 PM
I think it was mentioned somewhere. Yes, they can
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Highlander on September 27, 2007, 10:44:21 PM
No, they cannot. We either need the brf exporter from the dev team or a new version of BRFEdit that supports custom skeletons.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on September 27, 2007, 10:53:31 PM
I think it was mentioned somewhere. Yes, they can

No, they cannot. We either need the brf exporter from the dev team or a new version of BRFEdit that supports custom skeletons.

I think he means the game engine supports them.  The new version of BRFEdit will just be a matter of time.  So, yes, dwarves and trolls and wolves and wild pigs will all be possible just as soon as we get together the software and techniques to edit them.  That could take a while, but it's a safe bet that it will get done.


Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ahadhran on September 27, 2007, 10:56:56 PM
Hey, just on a whim I felt like doing a sword so I started working on the following:

http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-hilt-v.jpg (http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-hilt-v.jpg)
http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-corpus-v.jpg (http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-corpus-v.jpg)

Just out of curiosity, what kind of poly limit should I go for, 300, 400, 500?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on September 27, 2007, 11:11:39 PM
Hey, just on a whim I felt like doing a sword so I started working on the following:

http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-hilt-v.jpg (http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-hilt-v.jpg)
http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-corpus-v.jpg (http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-corpus-v.jpg)

Just out of curiosity, what kind of poly limit should I go for, 300, 400, 500?

I think you're high, there.  Shoot for 200 - don't go over 300.  The blades I did for ONR came out about 250, and there was some concern that I got them too high-poly.  (They're nice, if you haven't seen them ... just pull them up in BRFEdit and admire them.)  The stuff in Native tends to be under 150.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on September 28, 2007, 12:00:21 AM
There is quite a range to the native stuff. Scimitar at 350, dagger just short of 400, some polearms hovering near 500. 


Hey, just on a whim I felt like doing a sword so I started working on the following:

http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-hilt-v.jpg (http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-hilt-v.jpg)
http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-corpus-v.jpg (http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/128-sword/128-corpus-v.jpg)

Just out of curiosity, what kind of poly limit should I go for, 300, 400, 500?

Cool! Depends where you want me to stick it. A general purpose sword...probably what? 250-400.  Up to twice that if its a reward only weapon but with a straight blade I doubt youd need that many.

I dont have much info about dwarf/troll possibilities yet. Im curious about that comment on the skins page about the scale feature...

Quote
# 14) Skeleton name
# 15) Scale (doesn't fully work yet)

So even when Thorgrim updates brfedit it may be that the hitboxes still dont scale properfy. IIRC scale is hitboxes but Im not sure.  It may also be that the comment is outdated.   The experts should have a clue eventually.



Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ahadhran on September 28, 2007, 12:09:12 AM
I asked on the highish side because I thought from the look of the sword that it might not be a mundane weapon, also with lod versions of the weapon, having only the closest be in the 300-400 range isn't a big deal. Most of the native weapons range from ~200-~400 with quite a few going over.

I have a version with as much detail as you could ever want on a sword at just under 400, I'll post  it tomorrow as I need to get to bed to get up for class tomorrow.

Sounds good. Thanks!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Highlander on September 28, 2007, 05:36:08 AM
Quote
# 14) Skeleton name
# 15) Scale (doesn't fully work yet)

So even when Thorgrim updates brfedit it may be that the hitboxes still dont scale properfy. IIRC scale is hitboxes but Im not sure.  It may also be that the comment is outdated.   The experts should have a clue eventually.
Armagan said hitboxes are editable. I highly doubt he ment the scale function. I could imagine he might have implent them in the skeleton brf file or something like that, Thorgrim will know.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 28, 2007, 08:10:06 AM
I trust Thorgrim to do a great job with BRFedit so we can have our dwarves ;) We'll just have to wait and see.

I'm eagerly waiting for the sword, that one is extremely nice :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: rider on September 28, 2007, 08:31:13 AM
By having the dwarves, I believe you mean to alter the height and width of the model? Would you use this to improve the trolls also?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ahadhran on September 28, 2007, 08:51:02 AM
Okay here is my first version, I'm not sure if its quite right to the picture proportionally but I have been looking at it for too long to tell.  :lol:

Anyway, feel free to comment on whats not right, I won't be offended.

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1421/dwarfstartet8.th.jpg) (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwarfstartet8.jpg)

I'm working on the texture right now before I go to my first class.

Edit: I got the reference pic in wings to put the model up against and I think I got it true to the sword at least, Here is the latest untextured:

(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2729/dwarffinalxs0.th.jpg) (http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwarffinalxs0.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 28, 2007, 09:36:20 AM
I'd say it looks pretty friggin good ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ahadhran on September 28, 2007, 10:24:23 AM
Here is the final textured model, looks pretty good I think  :D

(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5121/finaldwarftexqr8.th.jpg) (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=finaldwarftexqr8.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on September 28, 2007, 10:36:33 AM
Yeah, thats a great job. Seriously good one.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: rider on September 28, 2007, 11:20:11 AM
God. Seeing that makes me search for one to draw and then run around the streets slashing away...:P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 28, 2007, 12:04:21 PM
really good, more please! :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 28, 2007, 08:57:34 PM
Someone should get started in the armor ><!
or do you need a dwarven body as a template first?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 29, 2007, 12:31:00 AM
Someone should get started in the armor ><!
or do you need a dwarven body as a template first?

well, that's a good question. Probably yes.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on September 29, 2007, 01:00:04 AM
Well, for a template ... there's a proverb in auto-body work, that goes like "bend to fit, paint to match."

A few minutes of "Scale x", "Scale y", and "scale z" should make just about any human-based armor fit a dwarf, just as soon as the dwarf is ready.  My impression, if I was going to do dwarf armor, would be to throw something together on a roughly human scale, do the textures in something that looks like it might fit a dwarf, and then wait for the dwarf body.  Once I had the dwarf, make the armor fit, and then texture it.  (Texture last, so the textures won't be distorted in the rescale.)

Bend to fit, paint to match.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on September 29, 2007, 01:25:06 AM
the scaling might (!) work. Might. You can't texture before the scaling though, it's impossible or very hard to change a shape of a UV mapped and textured object while keeping the UVs and the texture on it...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on September 29, 2007, 01:40:43 AM
the scaling might (!) work. Might. You can't texture before the scaling though, it's impossible or very hard to change a shape of a UV mapped and textured object while keeping the UVs and the texture on it...

You notice it's "bend to fit" first, "paint to match" second.  Not the other way around.  It's hard to bend things in the real world without damaging the paint as well.

UV maps normally stay on rescaled objects just fine ... it's just that the new shape distorts them so badly that they look all freaky.  Possible, but certainly not a good idea.  Much, much better if it is bend to fit first, paint to match second.


Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on September 30, 2007, 08:44:07 AM
Here is the final textured model, looks pretty good I think  :D

(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5121/finaldwarftexqr8.th.jpg) (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=finaldwarftexqr8.jpg)

Looks great, good job!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on September 30, 2007, 10:36:18 PM
No tips or comments on my building?  :'(
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Fisheye on October 01, 2007, 06:56:41 AM
Zenos: Your model looks quite lacking in detail. It's a big box. Good effort making the hollow insides though.

It seems you're not sure what you're trying to make. Try getting some source material. Make some sketches and get people's feedback on the general architectural plan before you start.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 01, 2007, 07:13:40 AM
Zenos: Your model looks quite lacking in detail. It's a big box. Good effort making the hollow insides though.

It seems you're not sure what you're trying to make. Try getting some source material. Make some sketches and get people's feedback on the general architectural plan before you start.

yup. Think big. Like, get reference pictures of Osgiliath, Minas Tirith, all the architecture. Or Venice (it's hugely based on venetian architecture).
Then make sets. Think scenes, where you could put stuff and how to combine it. We'll post our thoughts, but without a texture it's a big box ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 01, 2007, 07:55:48 AM
a small batch of pics I've drawn in my new sketchbook during a walk (the internet was out so there was nothing else to do and it was nice and warm outside..) :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WargriderSketch1.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WargriderSketch2.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WargriderSketch3.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on October 01, 2007, 03:39:09 PM
Very very nice!

And I think Orcs in scavenged gear (retextured?) is a nice idea too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on October 01, 2007, 04:14:58 PM
Great stuff, Merl. The helmet's good and I like the wargs too.
If the Warg skeleton ever gets a makeover, it would be nice to make them look like this (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SS_May_2006_15.jpg) or this. (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/first_17.jpg)

I've started work on some Dwarf helmets based on Merlkir's sketches:

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/dwarfhelmets1.jpg)

The rings on the first one were impossible to get the same as the sketch, but I think it looks alright. The mask needs doing again, but the look I was going for is mainly there.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 01, 2007, 04:21:04 PM
Wow, great work from both of you.

If the Warg skeleton ever gets a makeover, it would be nice to make them look like this (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/SS_May_2006_15.jpg) or this. (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/screenshots/first_17.jpg)

I like the second warg, although it looks a bit skinny :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Duuvian on October 01, 2007, 04:22:44 PM
I like how the reins go to their ears, good thinking  :)

For the scavenged-gear guy, it would be cool if he had a dwarf beard hanging from his chest strap or something, as a trophy.

Nice stuff Ursca, especially the mask, but are there eyeholes? The mask would be a good thing change slightly and make varying versions maybe?

Good job to the both of you.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Fisheye on October 01, 2007, 08:41:32 PM
Omigod awesome Ursca.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 02, 2007, 02:24:16 AM
Dwarf stuff looks great! Might need eyeholes or we could try leaving that abstracted. Orc stuff looks great too Merlkir.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 02, 2007, 03:28:00 AM
mad skillz, Ursca! I love it!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 02, 2007, 05:05:40 AM
Idea for potential modelers and texturers (Ursca seems to be doing great ;)):

I have lots of reference pictures. But putting them all on IS or other image sites would take too long. I'll separate them by race, pack them up in a rar or something. send them to AW for overview and then we can post a rapidshare link or something..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on October 02, 2007, 04:28:48 PM
That would be great. You can never get enough reference pics.

I'll redo the mask with eye holes. The shape's not quite right anyway.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 04, 2007, 03:43:48 PM
Sort of quicker coloring of one of my "at work" drawings. I'm getting used to my new LCD :)  (also the reference are being sorted...they're a bit messy)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/LorienArcher.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 04, 2007, 04:58:06 PM
Very nice, I like it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 04, 2007, 05:32:30 PM
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/LorienArcher.jpg)

Yeah, thats a nice one!

I learned some UV basics last weekend and have been optimizing the dds sheets. Ill get back to it when I get back in week or so. Hopefully Ill be in the mood for further patching as well.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on October 04, 2007, 06:50:36 PM
holy bejesus that elf drawing is fucking FANTASTIC!

what wonderful art work, wow, lol I hope I can draw like that when I get in art class next year.  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 04, 2007, 11:57:06 PM
holy bejesus that elf drawing is fucking FANTASTIC!

what wonderful art work, wow, lol I hope I can draw like that when I get in art class next year.  :lol:
well, I can't promise you that ;) I didn't get where I am by going to art classes. Lots of practice and lots of drawing "useless stuff" (elves, dragons, swords..:D)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 05, 2007, 11:18:05 AM
OK, I've searched all my pictures and the references and inspiration pics are about 111 MB :) it's uploading to Rapidshare now, once it's done, I'll update this post. Everyone is free to download and take a look. I hope AW sorts it by his liking probably discarding most of it.

http://rapidshare.com/files/60488046/reference.part2.rar.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/60488046/reference.part2.rar.html)
http://rapidshare.com/files/60503043/reference.part1.rar.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/60503043/reference.part1.rar.html)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 06, 2007, 03:06:58 AM
BTW: Scion's fooling around in Mod of Mods :D I love the new meshes...should be wonderful to reskin..

(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2204/sc01wc0.jpg)

also Ursca works on MoM (busy bee, that Ursca :) I hope he sticks with us in TLD for a while too..)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/Momoutfits.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Highlander on October 06, 2007, 03:19:33 AM
I love the new meshes...should be wonderful to reskin..
Heh, if I understood Scion correctly, those are just reskins of native meshes.  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 06, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
I love the new meshes...should be wonderful to reskin..
Heh, if I understood Scion correctly, those are just reskins of native meshes.  :)

exactly, I probably didn't say it clearly :) I meant these new native meshes should be fun to reskin, "look what Scion made out of them " :)

anyway, this feature you've made is totally cool and I missed it in native a lot. The fact the map is sort of blank makes the positioning a bit hard..

(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5549/newscreen1hn1.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 06, 2007, 03:36:11 AM
I love the new meshes...should be wonderful to reskin..
Heh, if I understood Scion correctly, those are just reskins of native meshes.  :)

Yeah, Ursca's three (in that mod now) are just paint on the armors from costumes 9.  Scion was doing the same with some Native meshes.

Still, they look good.

I'm doing some freaky looking quasi-fantasy weapons for the "mod of mods" project ("Cult of the Big Lizard"), but I doubt any of them would set too well in TLD.  They're all big axes and maces, or semi-Asiatic looking polearms ... can't imagine any group in TLD using any of them.  I mean, Conan the Barbarian, maybe ... Tolkien's elves?  No.

Highlander's topography on the command screen map is certainly something destined to become a standard of the mod community.  Having played with it now, I can say it does work extremely well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on October 06, 2007, 01:05:29 PM
Wow, some of those reference pictures you posted for download are awesome, I really LOVE the noldor pictures, they are Amazing.

also the Winged helmets that are drawn for Dol Amroth are pretty cool, you should make some of those for TLD  :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 06, 2007, 01:15:07 PM
you're free to post pictures you like, but add a comment, why you think it (and what exactly from the picture) should be made. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on October 06, 2007, 01:30:19 PM
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/MastaSpoofa/NoldoLordBookTex.jpg)

His sword looks like it would be a pretty cool armory reward, maybe "High Noldorian LongSword" or what ever you want to name it  :)

I also like his helmet, maybe it should also be a Armory reward and maybe some of the elven lords should wear it.


his bracers are pretty cool too, but I suppose you make those on the armor (whoever skins it that is)

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/MastaSpoofa/g-tla-lord.jpg)

(just another example of a possible helmet)

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/MastaSpoofa/noldor_scout.jpg)

the bow seems like It could be either a type that would be sold in stores or as an armory reward as a version of a short yet powerful bow used for horse archery, since the current elf bow ( at least I think there's one.) is a warbow I think, more suited for foot combat, while this one would be used for horse archery  :)

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/MastaSpoofa/g-gilgaladcolor.jpg)

I think we need a type of armory spear too, and I just like gilgalad's spear in general, so just somthing to use as a sort of base for a armory reward spear.

I've only looked at the elven one's closely so far, so I might post more later but these are just some of the things I really like and think might fit in TLD.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on October 06, 2007, 01:37:15 PM
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/MastaSpoofa/art-knight-dol-amroth.jpg)

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/MastaSpoofa/gondor_48p.jpg)

just some examples of the winged helmet that are pretty cool and would be good to have enless they are already in there.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on October 06, 2007, 01:41:50 PM
whoops
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 06, 2007, 02:02:12 PM
ouch, why'd you quote all the pics? :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 06, 2007, 02:39:48 PM
I'd say no to that helmet. The wings are far too great for it to be to any use in combat. Imagine a longsword caught in the wedge between the wing and the helmet, either the wing would snap right off, or the helmet would crack like a biscuit.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on October 06, 2007, 03:49:42 PM
The wings arent meant to be useful, they are meant to make your Cavalry look godly, like they will completely own you if you go against them, plus gondor was rich, so they could afford to make their armor and weapons lavish and decorative.

plus this is LOTR not real life.  :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on October 06, 2007, 06:20:04 PM
Our history is full of examples of people not always choosing to do the most practical thing, logic and careful consideration wasn´t always the thing valued the most.

Large wings on the Knights of Dol Amroth would look awesome and perhaps strike fear into the orcs of Mordor, even though it would be impractical, should they be dismounted.
Long hair is a disadvantage in combat aswell, but you don´t see (or would want to see) elves with shaven heads, do you?

Its difficult too decide when to be a realistic medieval combat simulator, and when to opt for some (light) fantasy...
...but I would very much like to see a little longer wings on those Knights of Dol Amroth... just a little? :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on October 06, 2007, 10:38:34 PM
All day today Ive been playing 2.4 and I started as an Elf on normal damage and good AI with 4 hosts of Mordor and hero death on sept I changed mordor from to  verystrong to start because I didnt want gondor crushed before I finished in the north.

Well, I had decided to take down moria first, so of course I did the usual start of a campaign stuff, simple missions etc.

anyway, I never really got a big party all throughout the northern war, maybe 10 people max, but before day 40 I had destroyed moria and Dol Guldur, and gained the trait of Foe Hammer and OathKeeper.

I didnt have any armory items sept the shield of Noldor (which, btw looks AWESOME but its just too big for a First person view player like me)

My characters name is Feanor after the great Noldorian lord who of course created the Silmarils ::)

and all during this I was thinking, Wow, wouldnt it be awesome if I had that Noldorian lord's helmet and sword? oh and that bow, jeeze that would be AWESOME! especially since I am a horse archer / medium calvalry (shield and sword)

well, now im down in Rohan fighting the Dunlenders and Isengard, afterwhich I shall march with the mustering of the Rohhirrim to Gondor and save middle earth.

FEANOR LIVES AGAIN!

hm. I just came up with a great idea, AAR's of campaigns!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 07, 2007, 02:09:28 AM
well, we'll probably have wings on tower guard helmets. (or fountain guards. Don't know :))
For DA...we already do have a helm which sort of has wings, there's that swan boat on it. I would like to see that one retextured, but I guess you'll just have to wait and see ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 07, 2007, 07:26:10 AM
Ah, yes, our history is full of dumb people with armour they didn't think through. The Swan Knights, unfortunately, weren't dumb. I like the wings, but not the huge wings. Huge wings should be ruled out in the same spirit as plate armour and double-headed axes(that one has got to go, you know).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 07, 2007, 08:11:02 AM
This is from the Broken realm. I like the high helmets and the texture especially.

(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4410/ferendimhelmsxi2.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 07, 2007, 08:52:22 AM
Wow, very nice!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 07, 2007, 01:56:59 PM
Yeah, those look great!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on October 09, 2007, 03:10:19 AM
Just found this Drakan concept art http://www.planetdrakan.com/showimage.asp?imageurl=/pics/ps2/burn-desert-lords.jpg
What do you think about those guys' headgear? Would it fit for the Haradrim or whoever?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 09, 2007, 07:37:38 AM
Looks way too fantasyish. Ceremonial helmets for civilians, sure, but I can't imagine any single one of them actually wearing those into combat.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 09, 2007, 08:16:11 AM
I don't like the skulls. Wearing one skull..well, ok. But more? they're heavy and not very protective..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 09, 2007, 08:27:00 AM
I don't like the skulls. Wearing one skull..well, ok. But more? they're heavy and not very protective..

Concur.  What the Japanese samurai wore was absurd headgear.  What the Aztec Eagles and Jaguars wore was absurd headgear.  The things in that picture are just dumb.... Saturday-morning-cartoons kind of dumb.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on October 09, 2007, 08:28:49 AM
Oh well, just a thought ;)

It WAS morning after all  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 09, 2007, 12:15:35 PM
This is Ursca's work. Not for TLD dwarves if you're thinking that way...it's for the Cult of the Big Lizard.

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/Saxingrhelmetpreview.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on October 09, 2007, 12:27:22 PM
I was going to fix up some face masks based on your concepts for TLD. Just to make them a little more unique.

You can have those as well if you want though. :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on October 10, 2007, 01:26:55 AM
This is Ursca's work. Not for TLD dwarves if you're thinking that way...it's for the Cult of the Big Lizard.

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/Saxingrhelmetpreview.jpg)

They're for dwarves now.

I love em.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 10, 2007, 02:22:25 AM

They're for dwarves now.

I love em.

Give Ursca a minute to work.  It's a modular design, so he can add some things to make them look less Norse and more Tolkien before turning them over to the dwarves.

Those particular ones are intended to look like a bunch of quasi-Vikings, and may not be exactly the image needed for Dwarves.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 10, 2007, 02:45:45 AM
well, in fact they really do look alot like my dwarven concepts :) But yeah, Ursca already made some great dwarven masks, I think they can be modified a bit to be TLD specific..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on October 11, 2007, 03:08:42 PM
You guys were talking a lot about wings a while back. I thought I'd pull out the Winged Hussars. Were these somewhat like what you were envisioning?

(http://www.keithrocco.com/store/images/lg_wingedhussars.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 11, 2007, 03:19:34 PM
You guys were talking a lot about wings a while back. I thought I'd pull out the Winged Hussars. Were these somewhat like what you were envisioning?


not really, we talked about winged helmets..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on October 11, 2007, 09:11:49 PM
heheheh, actual WINGS on our Gondorian elite Cavalry ehh...?  :o
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on October 12, 2007, 06:55:38 AM
I think the Polish cavalry during the Napolian times had massive wings like the picture above.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 12, 2007, 07:45:58 AM
You guys were talking a lot about wings a while back. I thought I'd pull out the Winged Hussars. Were these somewhat like what you were envisioning?

They really, really aren't :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on October 12, 2007, 06:38:54 PM
I think the Polish cavalry during the Napolian times had massive wings like the picture above.

Not during Napoleonic times, try 200 years prior in the 1600's, and yes, that's a picture of Polish cavalry. As for the wings in the wrong place... my bad :-[
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 13, 2007, 06:32:50 AM
A new version of BRFEdit will hopefully be out in a couple of weeks, which will support creating and editing animations.

If your interested, here is a preview video of the next version:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~dstent/mnb/BRFEdit_Animation.mov

As you can see, it now supports binding meshes to the skeleton, and viewing them as they would appear in game.  You might also notice the specular on the chargers armour (which has been ramped up a little bit more than in native) - this is using exactly the same shaders as are used in game.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 14, 2007, 05:04:22 AM
Lovely kataphraktoi :)

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8219/10announcementkw5editgs0.gif)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MastaSpoofa on October 14, 2007, 09:09:27 PM
Lovely kataphraktoi :)

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8219/10announcementkw5editgs0.gif)

What are you doing merlkir?! Subliminal advertisement for EB?!



nah I love EB.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 14, 2007, 11:44:44 PM
it's hardly subliminal ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on October 15, 2007, 01:03:56 AM
What are you doing merlkir?! Subliminal advertisement for EB?!
nah I love EB.

Me loves EB too, though it is still overly based on archaic historiography (that is certain fundamental misenterpretations of Herodotus, such as placing "Celtic" tribes all over Europe, and Slavic ones practically nowhere, which is kinda odd, considering that apart from Gaul the "Celtic" tribes were never told to be really terribly conquered, yet by the fall of the Roman empire, suddenly maps appear that have no more Celts, but Slavs from north Germany to east Italy and everywhere east of that. Being hardly impressed by the idea of massive migrations of nations, there must have been less Celts and more Slavs then first described, as the Celts couldn't have just vanished, and the Slavs couldn't just have multiplied like rabbits in a mere couple of hundred years...), which often mixes up individual tribes or region-specific names of population to be individual nations or cultures, which leads to broad generalizations and possible stereotypisations of understanding of history, which in turn in many ways shapes the way we perceive things today.

But...that's not why I write this.  8)

I've been playing LOTR-TW v.2.0 BETA last night, and though it's movie-based, it's one hell of a job. Incredibly well made, difficult and immersive. Playing the campaign as Gondor and really being stretched thin by numerous enemies.
If you haven't yet, then check out the many incredible screenshots here (click click) (http://lotr-tw.net/viewtopic.php?t=5&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

(http://lotrtw.com/gallery/prev09.jpg)


Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 15, 2007, 05:57:42 AM
(http://www.kevcrossley.com/lotr/dwarf.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 15, 2007, 06:33:46 AM
I keep meaning to play those middle earth TW mods...

But EB 1.0 is out? Have to go check that out at some point.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 15, 2007, 10:11:59 AM
Extremely quickly whipped armor ideas for the wargs:

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WargsBase.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WargsSaddle.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WargsLeather.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WargsSpikes.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/WargsArmor.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on October 15, 2007, 10:21:43 AM
LOVE THEM!!!! Especially the elm. But, I'll personally never be able to reproduce any of this in 3D. :(

Also, I would keep gold and silver for good knights in shiny armour, and give wargs leather, dark iron and darker iron instead.
Just a metter of color, the concept is great.

What about having some armour nailed into the flesh, as a crude surgery patch? (maybe to patch a wound, or to add reliable armour?)

-------------

Edit: I'll give it a try in a few days (maybe before). Real life is calling. Meanwhile, anybody feel free to give it a try.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 15, 2007, 10:36:07 AM
I don't know..sounds a bit too SM to me...wargs weren't beasts to be toyed with I think, nailing anything on them, I think they would refuse to carry the rider (as it seems it worked through spoken agreement.)

It's not supposed to be gold and silver ;) more like crude bronze and steel. But yeah, go with rusty iron..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 15, 2007, 11:49:35 AM
I know I'm late to the party but... nice job! :)

I like these concepts, and I'd love to have wargs like these in TLD.

About the wargs sounds, we'll have to wait for a M&B sound upgrade to make them.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 15, 2007, 01:06:09 PM
Yeah, nice stuff. I wouldnt mind that leather hood on a warg. Looks gobliny and evil. 

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on October 17, 2007, 04:37:37 AM
Wouldn't it be terrifying to see something like this in TLD?
The shot is from LOTR-Total War:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/ygor/come2.jpg)

...oh and minor EDIT: Isn't Sauron's sense of decency cute? Though he's the ultimate immoral bastard, he makes sure his troops wear at least a loincloth over their warty butts and genitals, not to offend a proper elf's morals. Imagine the above elf charging into a schlong half his size there  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on October 17, 2007, 04:52:20 AM
I was just thinking that it would be hard to make the trolls impressive enough. I mean, they'll go down quickly when outnumbered, and they can only hit one person at at time.

Now I think about it though, there are ways to fix it. The stunlock threshold would have to go up to fix the first one. I don't know what everyone would think of that, But I'm not adverse to it.
Also, we can attach scripts to weapons, in 0.89x we can find out the character's direction (might only work on the player character) and we can force falling down. We may also be able to force animations.

So, it might be possible to make the troll knock back everyone in front of him when he attacks. Or deal some minor damage.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on October 17, 2007, 06:57:51 AM

...oh and minor EDIT: Isn't Sauron's sense of decency cute? Though he's the ultimate immoral bastard, he makes sure his troops wear at least a loincloth over their warty butts and genitals, not to offend a proper elf's morals. Imagine the above elf charging into a schlong half his size there  :green:
Well, that would be pretty much disguisting to deal with.

Ursca - Well, personally i think that would make trolls too much of a challenge.
I mean, they are really tough alredy, that addition could make them unstopable.

Sure, they ARE trolls, but come on, we need a chance too  :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 17, 2007, 07:42:48 AM
Let's remember that trolls would be only a little taller than half that one's size. Olog-hai were thought of as enormous Orcs, and wouldn't be that much larger than a man's height. Maybe about 2.20-30 m tall. Just about the size they are in TLD now.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 17, 2007, 09:51:06 AM
Heres my first contribution to the models/art in a long time. (this is 32% less crappy than my old stuff). All need some detail work (edge alignment, etc).  The models are just modified octoburn dunnish shields mostly.

(http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/216/dunpicmh5.th.jpg) (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dunpicmh5.jpg)(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/592/dunshield2ri9.th.jpg) (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dunshield2ri9.jpg)(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9137/dunshield3gn1.th.jpg) (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dunshield3gn1.jpg)

(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7391/redwolfshieldop0.th.jpg) (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redwolfshieldop0.jpg)

Im not sure if I like the wolf shield with a spike or not.

Anyway, those might be dunnish shields if they work out and Im working on a dwarf shield sheet at the moment. Maybe a few will work out. Ive pasted a few of Merlkirs concepts to the page and I'm attempting to build around them.   I'll never be an artist but now that I understand layers and filters a little better I can use pre-existing textures to better effect.

If anyone wants to learn texturing I would suggest you check out the highelf video tutorials at the repository. It's pretty easy to do really. Well, the UV mapping is easy. Making a texture less so.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 17, 2007, 10:19:39 AM
I've recently discovered the power of Photoshop's functions such as inner and outer glow, drop shadow and some other. It's really great for making engravings or bevels in textures..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 17, 2007, 10:48:01 AM
Yep, Im playing with those now too. The dwarf shields need that kind of thing but I havent got it quite right yet.  Ill probably finish up this sheet and then go back to scripting/patch next week.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on October 17, 2007, 04:05:57 PM
I've recently discovered the power of Photoshop's functions such as inner and outer glow, drop shadow and some other. It's really great for making engravings or bevels in textures..

Yep.

Also, (forgive me if the following is obvious) the ultimate engravings technique for texture is the "embossing" filter (in photoshop it is under "stylize" filters). It is amazing. Draw an extra B&W layer with an height field (say dark=high and bright=low) - best to use smooth gradient rather than pure blacks and whites. Then, apply the embossing effect to that layer (play with the parameters). Then, make that layer blend with the layer below as "soft light" or "hard light" (rather than "normal"). Et voile! You have a really nice embossing. This is how I did, for example, the lower parts of the pawns, or the bones visible through the skin in the Saruman handsign.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 17, 2007, 05:26:06 PM
It's always good to have each part as a separate layer. Under layer style/blending options you have several options to toy with (including bevel and emboss). I use that a lot on shields, you just have to be careful with the shadow/highlight thingy; the light source in game can easily conflict with your settings in Photoshop, making it look unnatural. When I use bevel/emboss on shields, I usually reduce shadow/highlight from the default 75% to 25%.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Apoc on October 17, 2007, 08:51:52 PM
Let's remember that trolls would be only a little taller than half that one's size. Olog-hai were thought of as enormous Orcs, and wouldn't be that much larger than a man's height. Maybe about 2.20-30 m tall. Just about the size they are in TLD now.

Actually, they (Trolls) are mentioned to be 12 feet (3.7 meters) or more:

As tall as Trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height; their strong bodies, stout as young trees, seemed to be clad with raiment or with hide of close-fitting grey and brown. Their limbs were long, and their hands had many fingers; their hair was stiff, and their beards grey-green as moss.’*

*’The Two Towers: The Road to Isengard‘, p. 184.

(From 'The Scroll of Quotations' (http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/showthread.php?t=872))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 17, 2007, 09:42:23 PM
So, according to that, ents and trolls would be about the same size... interesting. I don't really know why, but I'd picture the ents bigger than trolls.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 18, 2007, 12:44:54 AM
Corsairs?

(http://www.iemed.org/fotografies/mediterraneum/peces/h12g.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 18, 2007, 01:24:53 AM
Let's remember that trolls would be only a little taller than half that one's size. Olog-hai were thought of as enormous Orcs, and wouldn't be that much larger than a man's height. Maybe about 2.20-30 m tall. Just about the size they are in TLD now.

Actually, they (Trolls) are mentioned to be 12 feet (3.7 meters) or more:

As tall as Trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height; their strong bodies, stout as young trees, seemed to be clad with raiment or with hide of close-fitting grey and brown. Their limbs were long, and their hands had many fingers; their hair was stiff, and their beards grey-green as moss.’*

*’The Two Towers: The Road to Isengard‘, p. 184.

(From 'The Scroll of Quotations' (http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/showthread.php?t=872))

Very interesting at that.

Corsairs?

I dunno. The colour scheme fits the Corsairs, but they don't strike me as the leafy kind.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on October 18, 2007, 03:08:22 AM
I dunno. The colour scheme fits the Corsairs, but they don't strike me as the leafy kind.

Leaves, seaweed, same thing.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on October 18, 2007, 03:41:29 AM
I dunno. The colour scheme fits the Corsairs, but they don't strike me as the leafy kind.

Leaves, seaweed, same thing.

Change the twisty leaves to twisty sea serpants and you have a helm for the corsairs.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on October 18, 2007, 04:00:21 AM
I dunno. The colour scheme fits the Corsairs, but they don't strike me as the leafy kind.

Leaves, seaweed, same thing.

Change the twisty leaves to twisty sea serpants and you have a helm for the corsairs.
OR change the twisted thing on top of it to a black serpent and it could do for the Haradrim (i guess)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 18, 2007, 09:57:19 AM
Not really TLD related, but it's Tolkien ;)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/TurinRain.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 18, 2007, 09:58:53 AM
Nice one. Who/what is it?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 18, 2007, 10:04:44 AM
it kind of might be Túrin ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 18, 2007, 11:09:13 AM
Very nice :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 18, 2007, 11:29:31 AM
He's got that bare-armed barbarian with greatsword look. Awesome :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 18, 2007, 11:51:36 AM
He's got that bare-armed barbarian with greatsword look. Awesome :D

that's actually borrowed from J.Howe's pic :

http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/lotr/gfx/john_howe/howe%20-%20Turambar%20a%20glaurung.jpg (http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/lotr/gfx/john_howe/howe%20-%20Turambar%20a%20glaurung.jpg)

and this one:

http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/details.php?image_id=387&mode=search (http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/details.php?image_id=387&mode=search)

John just got that right :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on October 18, 2007, 11:59:22 AM
Nice work, Merl. Very atmospheric.

Here's my attempt at some Dwarf Helmets.

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/TLDDwarfhelmets.jpg)

For some reason, all my attempts went a bit peculiar. The eyes are hollowed out now, but they look a little strange.

Still, there they are.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 18, 2007, 12:04:32 PM
those are great. my only problems:

- dunno if the blackness is right. Maybe brighten up the iron a bit.
- The nose on the mask..is it just a texture? maybe I'd sacrifice a couple of polygons for it to stand out a bit.
- the beard on the third one could be longer..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 18, 2007, 12:17:48 PM
I agree with Merlkir about the textures, but they look great. Good job!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on October 18, 2007, 12:22:18 PM
Thanks. Brightening up the iron should be easy. I was mainly overcompensating for the ironshader.

The mask is '3d'. I've pulled the vertices out a bit more to give it extra depth.
The beard on the third one is supposed to be more of a moustache. I could do a more beardy one though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 18, 2007, 01:08:28 PM
Looking good! I'm not sure if the black iron is best but we can play around with that later.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 18, 2007, 02:53:18 PM
another not really TLD related tolkien pic :D The dragon helm of Dor Lómin :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/DragonHelmOfDorLomin2m.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 18, 2007, 02:57:17 PM
Now that is awesome! I really love the helmet, the mask has that fantastic, gaunt expression. Awesome, awesome, awesome :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 18, 2007, 03:09:58 PM
I tried to make the mask quite expressionless, it took a lot from corinthian helmets..I don't know :) I take gaunt as good.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 18, 2007, 03:12:18 PM
Looks like more League of Madhros stuff.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 19, 2007, 04:26:48 AM
I tried to make the mask quite expressionless, it took a lot from corinthian helmets..I don't know :) I take gaunt as good.

Gaunt is excellent. It's long, thin and has no facial features. I just love it, I do :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 19, 2007, 07:15:59 AM
interesting:

(http://www.ljplus.ru/img3/k/o/konephuk/BowMaster.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 19, 2007, 07:35:16 AM
Awesome picture, Merl, I love it that you explore different styles! :D


Or not. Did the artist make any more Tolkien-based pictures?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on October 19, 2007, 07:49:15 AM
Love the Owl sitting on the target xD
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 19, 2007, 08:38:54 AM
I don't know if it's even tolkien related. I've just found it on some russian fantasy site..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on October 19, 2007, 09:15:29 AM
That is one brave owl to be sure..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 19, 2007, 10:09:18 AM
Yes, because Elves are prone to miss the target by half a meter :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on October 19, 2007, 12:52:50 PM
If this was a M&B elf.... then yes :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 19, 2007, 05:00:13 PM
If this was a M&B elf.... then yes :P

Touché, my friend.

If it was Glorfindel, though, he'd miss the target, the next 50 trees and hit Thranduil's destrier in the arse and cripple it for life.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 21, 2007, 04:48:02 AM
Some dwarves for you guys :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/DwarvenUnits1.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on October 21, 2007, 05:30:20 AM
Some dwarves for you guys :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/DwarvenUnits1.jpg)

Obviously the dwarves don't pay much attention to obesity and the health problems that it brings.  In other words, I don't think even dwarves should be that "jolly"
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 21, 2007, 05:45:58 AM
Some dwarves for you guys :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/DwarvenUnits1.jpg)

Obviously the dwarves don't pay much attention to obesity and the health problems that it brings.  In other words, I don't think even dwarves should be that "jolly"

Well, to judge from the art, apparently ancient Japan's view of the perfect warrior was a fat, middle-aged guy.  That's how the samurai were always drawn and painted.... and pretty much everybody then and now agrees that they were not good people to have as enemies.

The whole Greek/Roman young athlete look is really a pretty limited cultural view of proper body shape.  It has become a common opinion in the modern world, since the other major alternative in most places seems to be true high-body-fat obesity.  (The number of heavy but solid people still around are mostly limited to ranchers and iron workers.)

However there's no reason to think that the dwarves would see it that way.

Not saying the dwarves particularly should be heavy-set, just pointing out that there are alternative ways of seeing the issue.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on October 21, 2007, 06:11:05 AM
Ignoring the cultular view, i think the dwarves could be slightly wider in the arms. Or their feet could be smaller. No matter.

And the hobbit looks so cute and helpless :)
You know Merlkir, i don't think those guys shouldn wear ANY armor (apart from clothing).

Keep in mind that when Pippin and Merry returned to the Shire in their armors, people were somewhat surprised and distasted (Maybe it's too strong of a word, but you get the idea) to see one of them dressed in metal (Chain).
After all, them 'obbits like it country style.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: War_B*stard on October 21, 2007, 06:46:32 AM
Nice work Merlkir! (Are you an art/illustration student?)

As far as the anatomical proportions are concerned, I think they look fine. Dwarves should be stocky, and those guys look solid.
I really like the look of the "Iron Head", he looks like a real head breaker! (Awesome helmet too)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 21, 2007, 07:24:00 AM
Very nice work indeed. Dwarves were described as stocky and fat in most of their descriptions. If you find the time, I'd love to see an Iron Hills dwarf, with a war mattock :)

Proportions are fine, except that the feet are a little bit too bulky on the Dwarves and small on the Hobbit, but they look like it'd be a dumb idea to say it to their faces, so I'll let it go ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on October 21, 2007, 08:25:09 AM
Some dwarves for you guys :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/DwarvenUnits1.jpg)

Obviously the dwarves don't pay much attention to obesity and the health problems that it brings.  In other words, I don't think even dwarves should be that "jolly"

Well, to judge from the art, apparently ancient Japan's view of the perfect warrior was a fat, middle-aged guy.  That's how the samurai were always drawn and painted.... and pretty much everybody then and now agrees that they were not good people to have as enemies.

The whole Greek/Roman young athlete look is really a pretty limited cultural view of proper body shape.  It has become a common opinion in the modern world, since the other major alternative in most places seems to be true high-body-fat obesity.  (The number of heavy but solid people still around are mostly limited to ranchers and iron workers.)

However there's no reason to think that the dwarves would see it that way.

Not saying the dwarves particularly should be heavy-set, just pointing out that there are alternative ways of seeing the issue.


The Japanese also drew their horses with tiny thing legs and a massive fat body, totally out of proportion of what real horses look like.  From this I conclude that they also drew their fit, toned warriors a bit chubbier.  It was just the style of drawing, not a realistic portrait.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Fisheye on October 21, 2007, 08:36:16 AM
I think it's perfect, really great work Merlkir as usual. The aesthetic is perfect.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 21, 2007, 08:51:48 AM
they're not fat at all. I wouldn't mention it, but since you brought the issue up, the gladiators in Rome were probably pretty different from the movie ones, more like chubby bar brawlers than oiled athletes. The fat would make you hard to grab and would prevent some wounds from being fatal.
Anyway, they're more of wide and broad than fat ;) keep in mind that chainmail makes anyone look fat (that's a fact) and the iron head has probably some padding under the brigandine-thing..
And yeah, the boots are a bit too bulky. But I was told the ones I painted were too historical and that dwarves need heavy duty iron shoes :D

Nice work Merlkir! (Are you an art/illustration student?)

thanks. :) no, I'm not. I study informatics at college.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on October 21, 2007, 12:30:36 PM
Awesome.

Merlkir, would you mind doing a quick sketch of the front of the iron head's helmet?
It's kind of hard to tell how it all goes together.

The Hobbit's good.
Hobbits are a little weird. They have all the trappings of C18th England, what with pipes, potatoes, waistcoats and elevenses. Is it worth portraying this kind of stuff, or would it be best to fit them in with the other cultures.

Just food for thought.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 21, 2007, 02:01:25 PM
Awesome.

Merlkir, would you mind doing a quick sketch of the front of the iron head's helmet?
It's kind of hard to tell how it all goes together.

The Hobbit's good.
Hobbits are a little weird. They have all the trappings of C18th England, what with pipes, potatoes, waistcoats and elevenses. Is it worth portraying this kind of stuff, or would it be best to fit them in with the other cultures.

Just food for thought.

helm - sure, but tomorrow :) I'm tired today. Went fencing. Ouch, haven't done it in while..

The hobbits - well...yeah. The look is mostly set in the books. If they are ever in as a battling faction, I'll probably choose some weapons and armor, but it'll be easier to find reference and all. Also you're right about the fitting in, I'll try to think about something for the to blend in better ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 21, 2007, 04:34:33 PM
The Hobbits even had grandfather clocks.

Their military - if it could be called that - wouldn't be much further ahead than anyone else's, probably even more primitive.

As for the potatoes... didn't Tolkien remove tomatoes and potatoes and shite from the Hobbit? Would be awkward if he kept them in the LotR.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 21, 2007, 06:31:22 PM
Dwarves look good, especially the helm on the right.

If hobbits ever made it in its more likely they would be in the form of npcs or heroes rather than armies and troops. But who knows what people will add after I finish what I consider to be the core mod.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on October 21, 2007, 09:19:57 PM
The Hobbits even had grandfather clocks.

Their military - if it could be called that - wouldn't be much further ahead than anyone else's, probably even more primitive.

As for the potatoes... didn't Tolkien remove tomatoes and potatoes and shite from the Hobbit? Would be awkward if he kept them in the LotR.

Remove potatoes?!?!?!

Quote
Gollum withdrew grumbling, and crawled into the fern. Sam busied himself with his pans. 'What a hobbit needs with coney,' he said to himself, 'is some herbs and roots, especially taters...
-From "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit," The Lord of the Rings
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 22, 2007, 01:23:53 AM
Merlkir:  The gladiators of Rome were slaves, and as such, I doubt they got enough to eat to make them too chubby.  Their status as slaves would make them an exception to the rule, since they didn't really have a choice.

However, the early Greek and Roman athletic events and the art associated with them all very much prized the young athlete with zero body fat.  They oiled their bodies for the Greek wrestling   to make it hard for the other guy to get a grip on them.  It was a cultural norm, that athletes and fighters should be sleek and trim (and sometimes oiled).  Athletic events were tailored to this. 


Boiled Ice:
Japan did draw their horses as rather short, light-legged creatures ... but Japanese mountain ponies are kind of short critters with thin legs.  The point might be slightly exaggerated, but it's not totally stylized - those little animals are tough for their size, but their size isn't much.  (It was a big research project over with ONR to confirm this.)  As for them being rather fat, I don't know what they were feeding them.  However, neither all the horses nor all the people in Japanese art are slightly obese, so I doubt it was purely stylistic.  (Maybe the fact they didn't hide that their warriors were chubby might be considered a stylistic element.)

Still, I doubt it was purely stylized ... I was born in redneck country, and out there a slightly overweight ironworker is considered much more of a threat than a finely trained athlete.  I suspect the Japanese came to the same conclusion - not just in art, but in the way they trained and exercised.

Which is why I said that the TLD dwarves can be a little heavy without hurting anything.  Especially if they stay in shape by mining and blacksmithing.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on October 22, 2007, 01:32:12 AM
Good points there Ron.  Dwarves are meant to be stocky but those drawings, although they look GREAT, I don't think dwarves should be that round.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 22, 2007, 04:13:32 AM
Merlkir:  The gladiators of Rome were slaves, and as such, I doubt they got enough to eat to make them too chubby.  Their status as slaves would make them an exception to the rule, since they didn't really have a choice.


that is by my knowledge a wrong assumption. Yes, many of them were slaves. Mostly they were people who commited crimes worth sentencing them to die in the arena. Those wouldn't have much training/skill/lastability. Then there was the arena crew which were guys who trained a lot and had numerous arena battle experiences. They were not only slaves, but there were also people who chose to be gladiators because of the thrill and benefits they gained as gladiators. Even those who've had the "slave" status were treated rather well. They had lots of food, they had to some degree the comforts and personal freedom in the borders of the arena. It makes sense, would you like to watch a couple of skinny diseased slaves kill themselves with one lucky blow, or would you rather train the guys, make them healthy so they last longer? The desired chubbiness was even the intention of the trainers I think. (there are couple articles about it online. I don't have the links, but it can be googled I think.)
It of course varied with the time period, a particular arena and the wealth of the town and many other factors. But the main point is that general population's view of gladiators for the past two centuries is probably pretty wrong and shifted.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Tostig on October 22, 2007, 04:15:26 AM
Quote
I'm tired today. Went fencing. Ouch, haven't done it in while..

The hobbits - well...yeah. The look is mostly set in the books. If they are ever in as a battling faction, I'll probably choose some weapons and armor, but it'll be easier to find reference and all. Also you're right about the fitting in, I'll try to think about something for the to blend in better

Fencing? Foil or Epee?

Anyway, as for the hobbits I've always thought of them as living in the mythical Merrie England, complete with "the thatched cottage, the country inn, the cup of tea, and Sunday roast". Where's China Mieville when I need him? In anycase, in so far as they have a military I've always thought it would be the sheriff and a couple of his mates to deal with anyone who gets rowdy in the pub after a few too many pints of Mummerset cider. I suppose you could stretch that into some kind of trained-band (http://trained band) type of thing, but that'd be pushing it.

As for Dwarves being stocky or fat - I like it. I imagine them as having muscle, but no muscle definition - they could win an arm wrestle, but not do a fencing lunge.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Yogi on October 22, 2007, 04:24:46 AM
Merlkir:  The gladiators of Rome were slaves, and as such, I doubt they got enough to eat to make them too chubby.  Their status as slaves would make them an exception to the rule, since they didn't really have a choice.

Noop. The gladiators were famously chubby, because of the special diet they got (reminded me a bit about Sumo wrestler fare). We know this because one ancient Roman (will check up the name when I get home) even complained that they got fat and slow from their food, but grudgingly agreed that all that fat gave them some protection against shallow cuts.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 22, 2007, 04:28:19 AM
Quote
I'm tired today. Went fencing. Ouch, haven't done it in while..

The hobbits - well...yeah. The look is mostly set in the books. If they are ever in as a battling faction, I'll probably choose some weapons and armor, but it'll be easier to find reference and all. Also you're right about the fitting in, I'll try to think about something for the to blend in better

Fencing? Foil or Epee?

Anyway, as for the hobbits I've always thought of them as living in the mythical Merrie England, complete with "the thatched cottage, the country inn, the cup of tea, and Sunday roast". Where's China Mieville when I need him? In anycase, in so far as they have a military I've always thought it would be the sheriff and a couple of his mates to deal with anyone who gets rowdy in the pub after a few too many pints of Mummerset cider. I suppose you could stretch that into some kind of trained-band (http://trained band) type of thing, but that'd be pushing it.

As for Dwarves being stocky or fat - I like it. I imagine them as having muscle, but no muscle definition - they could win an arm wrestle, but not do a fencing lunge.

exactly. Even in the times of Saruman's rule over Shire the militia were mostly young guys with sticks frightened to death ;)
And it's medieval fencing. Fencing probably being the wrong word used. Swordplay. Eh. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Yogi on October 22, 2007, 04:29:33 AM
Well, to judge from the art, apparently ancient Japan's view of the perfect warrior was a fat, middle-aged guy.  That's how the samurai were always drawn and painted.... and pretty much everybody then and now agrees that they were not good people to have as enemies.

The whole Greek/Roman young athlete look is really a pretty limited cultural view of proper body shape.  It has become a common opinion in the modern world, since the other major alternative in most places seems to be true high-body-fat obesity.  (The number of heavy but solid people still around are mostly limited to ranchers and iron workers.)

However there's no reason to think that the dwarves would see it that way.

Not saying the dwarves particularly should be heavy-set, just pointing out that there are alternative ways of seeing the issue.

Spot on, Ron. If you ever see a "Strongest man in the world" contest (in which for some reason only the Lord Almighty can figure out Iceland always wins), notice how all the participants are built like barrels with arms and legs attached. The impression you get is "chubby", very far from the greek ideal, but not that far from those dwarves...

and they're so strong it's just frightening.

(http://www.starkeanders.se/image/bilskottkarra.jpg) (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200408/r28120_70009.jpg)
(http://www.btinternet.com/~philip.j.wright/glenrosspage_files/image004.jpg)
(http://www.ifsastrongman.com/images/2006Finals_520px.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Tostig on October 22, 2007, 04:57:44 AM
I hate to bring this up but aside from the sheer awesomeness of having hobbitses in the game, why should they be there? There seem to be about five hobbits around where the war is taking place. Dwarves are understandable, but Hobbits? Ents are more important!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 22, 2007, 05:11:47 AM
I hate to bring this up but aside from the sheer awesomeness of having hobbitses in the game, why should they be there? There seem to be about five hobbits around where the war is taking place. Dwarves are understandable, but Hobbits? Ents are more important!

well, nobody says they will be in. :) I just painted one for fun.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 22, 2007, 05:19:04 AM
We don't yet have all of the custom critter stuff working yet anyway.  By the time that the custom skeletons and such are ready to deploy, I'm sure that the concept art for dwarves, hobbits, ents and trolls will be lined up well enough to start work on them.  I mean, no need in getting the cart ahead of the horse.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Yogi on October 22, 2007, 05:51:55 AM
Going back to the debate on dwarwen weaponry... although they are described as using mainly swords, axes must have played an important role for them, considering the words of their war-cry:

"Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd aimênu!" which means (Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 22, 2007, 06:01:08 AM
That's definitely true. :) I had both axes and swords in mind for the dwarves..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 22, 2007, 10:01:43 AM
Maybe it was symbolic, or a reverse Norse? Many among Norse valued swords over axes because they were more expensive and prestigious, but the essence of the axe, an unstoppable mass of heavy iron, was still revered, and even the top dogs in Norse society valued axes more than blades, if not as much.

In Dwarven society, built on some Norse ideals and much of its mythology, smithcraft would be so commonplace and so cheap that it was a form of currency with which it traded for food and ponies and information and whatnot. In such a society, where the monetary value that distinguished the sword from the axe would be greatly diminished, the Dwarven Norse-derived ideal of heavy, inexorable and crippling blows(fundamental pillar in my own ideology, by the way :p) would shine through.

My point is, when the prestige of the expense of a blade was diminished in a Dwarven culture, the axe would still be as prestigious as what it symbolises.

So even if they didn't use axes for gruntwork as much as we'd think, we see Gimli, a Dwarven nobleman, carrying an axe, and therefore an ideal of his people, which we recognise in their most famous warcry.

Did I make any sense?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 22, 2007, 10:51:17 AM
hmm...that sort of makes sense to me :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 22, 2007, 11:46:11 AM
Yeah, that makes sense to me.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 22, 2007, 11:52:36 AM
Ah, good. I was afraid I'd packed it in too much bullshit, and then I was too lazy to edit the text :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Apoc on October 22, 2007, 12:06:22 PM
Going back to the debate on dwarwen weaponry... although they are described as using mainly swords, axes must have played an important role for them, considering the words of their war-cry:

"Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd aimênu!" which means (Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!)

Dwarves are described as using mostly swords? I started a thread over at COR last year entitled 'Dwarves and their axes: a fantasy stereotype?' (http://www.chamber-of-records.com/forum/showthread.php?t=826) - here's a little from it:

First, what are the indications that axes were the preferred weapon? Zakath came up with the most obvious one - the great battle-cry of the Dwarves: ‘Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu! The Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!’ Gimli uttered this cry as he lopped off two Orcs’ heads at the Battle of the Hornburg, and in the Appendices we learn that this cry had 'been heard on many a field since the world was young’.

The other major indication is all the references to axe-wielding Dwarves: Thorin wielded a silver-hafted axe at the Battle of the Five Armies; Dáin, son of Náin, hewed off the head of his sire’s killer, Azog, at the Battle of Azanulbizar, and later, during the War of the Ring he defended the body of King Brand, still wielding his great axe, before he too was slain; there are numerous mentions of Gimli’s broad-bladed axe (and it is called a ‘dwarf-axe’, but that probably just means that it was of dwarf-make), and it seems certain that he kept it in high regard, as he was loath to surrender it at the doors of Meduseld, and only did so after Aragorn had agreed to leave Andúril; Durin’s Axe only has one mention, in the much-ruined Book of Mazarbul, but it is indicative that the only weapon attributed to the oldest of the Fathers of the Dwarves is an axe.

Then there are the references to entire Dwarven armies with axes. Naugrim (Sindarin: ‘stunted-people’) with axes finished off the Orcs that were left after the first battle of the Wars of Beleriand, and it was their great axes that kept Glaurung and his brood at bay during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. When Thorin thought of revenge upon Smaug it is said that ‘the axes of his people were few,’ clearly indicating that their military strength was counted in ‘axes’ (Rohan's, for instance, was counted in 'spears').'
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 22, 2007, 12:25:34 PM
I think Ari was referring to the description of the Iron Hills dwarves from the battle of five armies, if I remember it right, they carried short swords, bows and mattocks..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 22, 2007, 03:38:56 PM
Aye, mattocks and short swords and bucklers.

The Dwarves of the Iron Hills would be the first settlers of Erebor, and the soldiers of those two realms would be the only ones we encounter within The Last Days, and what we've heard of them, they wield mattocks and swords, and didn't even bring with them axes that we know of. The aristocracy, however, often wielded axes, as I've said.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Apoc on October 22, 2007, 04:11:57 PM
Quote
I think Ari was referring to the description of the Iron Hills dwarves from the battle of five armies, if I remember it right, they carried short swords, bows and mattocks..

Not bows, though Thorin used one of horn. Still, I don't think it's fair to say that Dwarves used mainly swords.

Quote
Aye, mattocks and short swords and bucklers.

I'm not sure I would call the roundshields they are described as using bucklers - they would presumably be larger than your average buckler.

‘In battle they wielded heavy two-handed mattocks; but each of them also had a short broad sword at his side and a roundshield slung at his back. Their beards were forked and plaited and thrust into their belts. Their caps were of iron and they were shod with iron…’
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 22, 2007, 11:24:37 PM
if you strap a shield to your back, it's probably bigger than a buckler. Like the swordsman on my las concept art..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 22, 2007, 11:55:45 PM
if you strap a shield to your back, it's probably bigger than a buckler. Like the swordsman on my las concept art..

The English term "buckler" has been used to refer to so many shield designs, and/or to translate terms from so many other languages, that there is no way to define the term.

For purposes of design, describe shields by shape, size, and type of grip ... it will make life easier.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 23, 2007, 12:30:35 AM
Ah, sorry, a buckler is smaller, of course. But a round shield to a dwarf would be bucklerish to us, no?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Tostig on October 23, 2007, 02:10:03 AM
if you strap a shield to your back, it's probably bigger than a buckler. Like the swordsman on my las concept art..
The English term "buckler" has been used to refer to so many shield designs, and/or to translate terms from so many other languages, that there is no way to define the term.

I was under the impression that a buckler was a small shield gripped in the fist. The fist grip point pretty much determines the nature of the buckler - small, light, metal and used in combat. The Scottish targe is similar, but has enarmes. Admittedly pre-Kite shields show up the flaws in this definition, but I'm sure I could think of a way to wrangle my way out of it - that the grip is part of the iron strip perhaps?. Given that they're easily small and light enough to be carried on a belt, rather than a guige across the back, I don't think they'd be bucklers in the piece quoted. Take into account the Anglo-Saxon/Viking thing that Tolkein has going on with the dwarves and I'd think that A-S/Viking shields and perhaps even Kite Shields for high tier troops might be appropriate - pretty much as in the dwarven swordsman picture. That said there isn't any surviving evidence to indicate that carry-straps were ever used on shields of the Anglo-Saxon and Nordic cultures (or at least so myArmoury tells me).
That said the small iron shield the ironbreaker has makes me cunfuzzled. Given that that looks to me like a two handed hammer (or possibly axe), I'd ask how he intends to use such a small shield - especially when he looks too heavily armoured to effectively use a buckler if he were to use his main weapon. I'd be much happier if they had a larger shield slung over the back, in the manner of Huscarls.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 02:34:20 AM
The English "buckler" of the rapier-fencing era was a small, center-grip shield, usually with a lot of metal in the construction.  It was mostly used to protect the hand, i.e. the sword would be blocked with a sword, and then the hand and buckler would be brought in to try to hold the blade and/or push it away.  This was also done with larger shields, cloaks, maille gloves and daggers (see CapoFerro, George Silver, Talhoeffer and others for reference).

At least one document, I can't remember which one at the moment, also used "buckler" to refer to larger round shields.  It may have been an early English translation of Talhoeffer.... I can't find the reference when I'm looking for it.   (It wasn't "La Jeu de la Hache" - I checked that one, no references to shields there.)

However, the term "buckler" was also used to translate the old Greek term (which I forgot how to spell in Greek) for a shield-armguard that straps to the forearm and leaves the hand free.  (I.e. a shield attached by buckles, rather than a hand grip.)  George Silver quoted this from the most popular translation of "The Iliad" at the time with his line about "Was Ajax a coward because he fought with a seven folded buckler, or are we mad to go naked into the field to try our fortunes, not our virtues."  ("Paradoxes of Defence" 1599)

It would probably be better to describe shields by size, shape, and grip and avoid the use of the term "buckler" at all (unless you describe it) when discussing concept art.  It avoids confusion.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Tostig on October 23, 2007, 02:51:24 AM
Oh well, I'd only heard of the fencing/duelling type before. I guess that it's yet another example of modern historians trying to categorise things more strictly then they were at the time. It wasn't like there was a Platonic "perfect" shield all others were imperfect copies of. Still, the shorthand is useful - if I say "Kiteshield" everyone knows what I'm on about, rather than having to spend a paragraph describing it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 03:06:18 AM
Uh ... kite-shield refers to a specific shape.  (Like a kite, as opposed to round, square, teardrop, or curved heater.)  Even then, it could be any of several sizes or grip configurations and still be a kite shield.

Verbal shorthand is a good idea when writing up names for things, or in general purpose prose.  However, when trying to describe something and expecting another person to draw or paint it ... that's a bit of a different problem. 

And it's not modern historians grouping things more specifically than was historical.  It's fantasy literature, games (paper and computer), sport fencing and other popular-culture items that have a problem with this.  Actual historians have seen these things (at least under glass in museums, even if they can't talk the museum curator into letting them hold it), and are quite aware of the variations that were common among them.

Merlkir is a great concept artist, but as a mind-reader he's no better than the rest of us.  You want him to draw something, you'll have to describe it pretty exactly.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Tostig on October 23, 2007, 04:00:24 AM
Sorry for the bastardisation Melkir, but it's just to show what I mean.

(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1399/dwarvenironheadiiok1.jpg)

The original (http://imageshack.us/) for comparison, and the kite-shield over back look (http://www.regia.org/images/combat/War14.jpg) I was going for.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on October 23, 2007, 04:18:50 AM
Alan Lee's drawing in the illustrated hobbit has always been my favourtie drawing of an Iron Hills dwarf. (I think he's one of the few to do an interpretation of them)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 23, 2007, 04:20:28 AM
two reasons for the buckler I painted:

-The iron head is heavily armored. The shield therefore is only for deflectiong blows and parries. I chose buckler, because it's quick and enables to fight more fancy style.
Or, if he wants to (I imagine he would), he can strap the buckler to the arm/shoulder and use the axe two handed.
-it's round and kite/teardrop shields don't really fall into the image of dwarves that I have. Dunno.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 04:48:50 AM
Considering the tech level in question, I would think that shields would be primarily for surviving arrows.  As such, being as large as possible (and still usable) would be the key concept.

The little round bucklers of late-period Europe were for rapier fencing in a world where firearms had made the shield wall nearly obsolete (unless you planned to go to REALLY heavy shields) and armor was falling out of use in civilian life (where rapier duels appeared).  They seem pretty questionable on a battlefield where your major threats would be a hail of arrows followed by an orc with an axe the size of a boat oar.

This could go beyond concept art and start getting into issues of game balance.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 23, 2007, 05:00:51 AM
or you would have a shield strapped to your arm if you used your weapon two handed. (aka Macedonian Phalangite,....
That's exactly what I wrote before. Concerning arrows he's quite cool too, his armor protection is quite high. (aka  Scythian and Parthian Kataphrakt - totally different type of troop,but the they used two handed spears and bows and they were heavily armored.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 05:13:45 AM
I don't think M&B supports shields that use zero hands, does it?  I mean, if it does, I would love to know how to set that up.  (Holy War wants that for the Turcomen horse archers.)
 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 23, 2007, 05:21:31 AM
I don't think M&B supports shields that use zero hands, does it?  I mean, if it does, I would love to know how to set that up.  (Holy War wants that for the Turcomen horse archers.)
 

1066 HAD (in 0751) a shield that could be equipped with a bow. It's probably no longer possible.
The only way is probably to model it with armor and add it's value to the upper body protection...

edit: Raz has a way of putting shields on back in different positions. It could be positioned on the shoulder and it would give the "Hit shield on back" protection.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 05:33:27 AM
I don't think M&B supports shields that use zero hands, does it?  I mean, if it does, I would love to know how to set that up.  (Holy War wants that for the Turcomen horse archers.)
 

1066 HAD (in 0751) a shield that could be equipped with a bow. It's probably no longer possible.
The only way is probably to model it with armor and add it's value to the upper body protection...

edit: Raz has a way of putting shields on back in different positions. It could be positioned on the shoulder and it would give the "Hit shield on back" protection.

You know where to find the Python item file for that 1066 shield?  Or anybody who worked on that project and knows how they did it?  Because the shield format hasn't changed ... if it worked then, it should work now.

(They may have set the bows to one-handed.  Raz tried that earlier but couldn't make it work.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 23, 2007, 05:36:20 AM
try contacting Colt. Either on Taleworlds or through their website (but they're not working on it, hope they still use their emails.)

http://www.livinghistorygames.com/ (http://www.livinghistorygames.com/)

edit: be warned though. They 1066 wife+husband team is known for their extreme protectiveness of 1066 content and their own persons. Ehm. To be polite.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Tostig on October 23, 2007, 05:45:55 AM
Quote
1066 HAD (in 0751) a shield that could be equipped with a bow. It's probably no longer possible.
The only way is probably to model it with armor and add it's value to the upper body protection...

It used to be quite easy to set back in 0.751, I did it a couple of times with the unofficial editor. Looking at the module documentation the best thing I can think of would be setting the mattock to be a one handed weapon with two-hander animation and have the shield as normal - would that work?

I'm still unconvinced about a heavily armoured warrior wielding a large and slow hammer then changing to the buckler. I know that they were used by and against armoured combatants but personally it doesn't fit the stubborn, begrudging idea I have of the dwarves. The teardrop kite shield might have Norman connotations, but it made me think of the shieldwall at Hastings, which I thought rather suited to the dwarves, especially given the sheer amount of viking/late A-S dripping from the swordsman.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 23, 2007, 06:10:51 AM
I already explained my reasons. Mostly it's the more armor you have, the less shield you need.
(I'm trying to add some eastern influence into dwarves too. Russian for instance.)

(http://www.dbaol.com/images/faces/1023_face.jpg)
(http://www.hellenica.de/Griechenland/Byzanz/Milit%E4r/Byz1.jpg)


just found this :D

(http://www.1186-583.org/IMG/jpg/piotr.jpg)
(http://www.1186-583.org/IMG/jpg/piotr2_int-2.jpg)
(http://strategicsimulations.net/catalog/images/SSSTR082.JPG)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 23, 2007, 09:14:34 AM
Yaaaay, I finally got my Witcher RPG game in an advance-sale. Had to wait in a queue for 30 minutes, but I have it :D got a lousy t-shirt too...crap, It's too small.

Don't expect any concepts soon :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 23, 2007, 09:25:00 AM
Good for you, too bad about the t-shirt :P

Yeah, I think those would make nice dwarves ;)

Edit: and that lamellar over leather would also make a nice horse armor for the Easterlings (maybe?).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Damien on October 23, 2007, 11:35:04 AM
The English "buckler" of the rapier-fencing era was a small, center-grip shield, usually with a lot of metal in the construction.

The shield you're describing pre-dates the 'rapier-fencing era' by a few hundred years.


And for the record, when one says 'buckler' - most people "in the know" will take it to mean exactly this type of shield. Same way everyone knows what you mean when you say 'gladius' despite the fact that the word meant only 'sword.'



Hi everybody!

Haven't had almost any time to post of late, have I? Oh well. I've kept up as best I can, despite not being able to post. Merl, I've been loving your concept art. "Iron Head" there's helmet looks awesome. Nice shape to the faceplate. I like the obvious Russian influences you put into them.

And I'd step on my own grandma to have that Dragon-helm in the game.

Lorien Archer: I'm not big on the scales running down the torso like that. Might look a bit more functional and 'realistic' (I daresay) to have the scale detailing more across the upper torso/chest, leaving the stomach protected only by mail? Just a thought. Still a kickass design with an even more kickass sword.

The Squire of Dol Amroth and Guardsman of Lebennin are spot-on. Perfect.

The Swords of Westernesse are just damn gorgeous. Love the pattern on the blades. Would be awesome to see that on some reward items in TLD.

Your Swan Knight of Dol Armoth is one of my favourites so far. We really need a better model in the game for that (what with the vambraces and greaves over mail). Too bad we also can't get 'flowing' surcoats and capes, because that makes it look even cooler. Nice movement in your work for "simple" sketches.



AW: Just.. keep doing what you do. Don't ever stop. Seriously. I'd find you.

;)

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 23, 2007, 12:22:30 PM
Damieeeeeeen! yay! :)

welcome back.

I'm playing the Witcher...It's good, but it's czech dubbed and the dubbing is HORRIBLE! the worst I've ever heard. I wonder if I could maybe switch to english...even the original polish..
Back to the game! see you ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 23, 2007, 12:32:50 PM
Hah! We've missed you lots, my friend, when were you last here? Before TLD moved to MBX? :lol: Ages anyway. Welcome back!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Yoshiboy on October 23, 2007, 12:36:46 PM
Are you trying to say all Russians are short? ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 23, 2007, 12:39:08 PM
Are you trying to say all Russians are short? ;)

Well, they're shorter than Americans, and that's bad ;P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 23, 2007, 12:52:23 PM
Are you trying to say all Russians are short? ;)

I was talking about the armor concepts, not about the Russians :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on October 23, 2007, 01:05:59 PM
Are you trying to say all Russians are short? ;)

Well, they're shorter than Americans, and that's bad ;P

No.
Russian troll bigger than Haradmerican.

(http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00274/valuev_barrett_460__274869a.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 23, 2007, 02:15:55 PM
The Beast is an exception :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Yoshiboy on October 23, 2007, 03:40:20 PM
Thats no man.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on October 23, 2007, 03:48:07 PM
It's a Space Station...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 23, 2007, 03:50:13 PM
The one on the left or the one on the right? The one on the right looks like Doofus the Dwarf from Snow White.

He was the eigth one, but was attacked by a Russian were-bear in the woods.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 23, 2007, 05:16:14 PM
Well, we needed concept art for a troll anyway...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 24, 2007, 02:27:55 AM
Just give him green scales, and we're good to go.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 24, 2007, 11:31:34 PM
Here is some views of the upgraded Ironhead helm.  Does M&B even support Dwarves? :P  The helm has fattened up to 42 polys and 512x512 texture.  Is that breaking any expectations?  I can make more fixes or tweaks to the model or texture.

If you want it tell me where to send it.  If I am a hopeless texture artist but you want some piece of the texture, I can send the layered photoshop file too.  I just cant bring myself to do foo-foo armor embellishments, the engraving stinks and a brass beard was too much. :P  Maybe I should stick to orcs...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/NewIronheadViews.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 24, 2007, 11:39:05 PM
Looks great, more detail can always be added later if needed. I sent you a PM.

Yeah, dwarves are in the works and should be possible but we arent at the testing point yet. Sooner or later. Until then we are trying to get as much stuff for them as possible.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 25, 2007, 12:54:08 AM
 :green: looking great. Thank you :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 25, 2007, 04:59:13 AM
we can maybe draw some motives and shapes for the dwarven masks from gladiator helmets.

http://www.romavictor.cz/fotogalerie/rim-gal-bitva/rim-gal-bitva024.jpg (http://www.romavictor.cz/fotogalerie/rim-gal-bitva/rim-gal-bitva024.jpg)

edit: even if they look maybe a bit similar to our variag ones :D

(http://www.getty.edu/bookstore/images-lg/gladiators-lg.JPG)
(http://www.wdr.de/tv/q21/uploads/pics/Militaerhistoriker-05.jpg)
(http://www.legionxxiv.org/gladiatorarena/helmthracian.jpg)
(http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/gladiatr/murhelm.jpg)
http://www.hephestus.net/DSCN0567.JPG (http://www.hephestus.net/DSCN0567.JPG)
http://www.hephestus.net/Dscn0507.jpg (http://www.hephestus.net/Dscn0507.jpg)
http://www.ludus.org.uk/pics/hawkedoncf.jpg (http://www.ludus.org.uk/pics/hawkedoncf.jpg)
http://www.hephestus.net/provocato2%20.jpg (http://www.hephestus.net/provocato2%20.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 25, 2007, 11:04:10 AM
Wow I can see a lot of potential for some unique stuff combining the gladiator helms with later period stuff.  I am going to try pulling the nasal from the ironhead helm and add rings like those.  Great idea!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 25, 2007, 11:12:41 AM
totally different note :

found this awesome scale armor:

(http://curiavitkov.cz/images/zivot/bozha-velky.jpg)
(http://curiavitkov.cz/images/zivot/supina.jpg)(http://curiavitkov.cz/images/zivot/supdetail.jpg)

this armor would be great for dwarves too, pity I don't have a bigger picture:

(http://curiavitkov.cz/images/zivot/dlouhan2.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 25, 2007, 11:20:54 AM
Also found this ring armor. (called "falérová" in czech)

(http://curiavitkov.cz/images/zivot/falera2.jpg)

Ron commented it some time ago in the Holy War thread. I've found that they're not washers as he though, but they're cut from a metal plate and beaten one by one.
It's a cheaper variant of chainmail. It was also used for leg protections additional to maille till about  12th century. We can give it to the dwarves, or maybe replace the "not really fitting" maille the Dunnish have with it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 25, 2007, 11:32:31 AM
even though the dwarves seem to be obsessed with decorating everything, I'd like to have helmets like this one too. Maybe for ranged troops, maybe for the light levy type infantry.
It might not seem like much, but it's beaten out of a single plate of steel, which requires high level of skill. Most of the conic/norman type helmets you'd find would be at least from two pieces welded and riveted together. So it's worthy the mastery of the dwarves.

(http://curiavitkov.cz/images/zivot/prilba-olomouc.jpg)

BTW: if you're wondering about the iron head helmet, it is inspired by the kalota type helmets. Like these:

(http://curiavitkov.cz/images/zivot/calota.jpg)
(http://www.roy-king.com/Images/latenorman.jpg)
(http://www.globaleffects.com/C_pages/Rental/Wardrobe/Headgear/HelmetsPeriod/Medieval/saltshakerhelm493_hi.jpg)
(the last one is called "saltshaker" apparently.)

some more gladiator helmets:

(http://www.globaleffects.com/C_pages/Rental/Wardrobe/Headgear/HelmetsPeriod/Ancient/gladiatorgold347_hi.jpg)
(http://www.globaleffects.com/C_pages/Rental/Wardrobe/Headgear/HelmetsPeriod/Ancient/GladiatorPlstc_hi.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 25, 2007, 12:02:39 PM
I have seen the helmets like the ironhead helm you had.  Thats why I so liked the idea of twisting it to something I havent seen with the eye rings. :D

I love that last gladiator helm's rear neck guard thingy too but I am worried about clipping.  I'll take note of how much head rotation occurs next time Im slaying baddies.  Damn i hate testing. ;)  If the rotation is minimal, Ill try to add that to future dwarf helms too.  The rear neck guard style would be easily recognized and definitely change a model's profile - even at a glance.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 25, 2007, 12:08:05 PM
well, it's a bit similar to the iron hats the orcs are using, but with a proper texture it should look distinctively dwarven :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: aquiefrog on October 25, 2007, 06:41:05 PM
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3011/variagmaskhelmsyo5.th.jpg) (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=variagmaskhelmsyo5.jpg)

My work on variag mask helms. the other two still need contour textures.

Edit:  The middle one is a quick job, made by editing the bascinet model.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 25, 2007, 10:21:39 PM
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3011/variagmaskhelmsyo5.th.jpg) (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=variagmaskhelmsyo5.jpg)

My work on variag mask helms. the other two still need contour textures.

Edit:  The middle one is a quick job, made by editing the bascinet model.

Those look nice, good job. ;) These helms can add some variety to the Variags.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Jon Snow on October 25, 2007, 11:35:21 PM
Eurgh, I'm really not a fan of the original mask helm in hindsight. Haha, my second helmet model. I'd love to go back to it, but I shouldn't really get too into modelling again. :( It's too much of a distraction from my work, I'm terrible for getting distracted. Love the new ones, they look great. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 25, 2007, 11:42:21 PM
I like the long hex-eyed and hex mouth Variag helmet with the integrated neck protection.  Very different.  I like the top sweeping back on the bottom middle too, but I think the rim should go straight across like the others.  Nice selection! :D

Here is my update on the Ironhead Dwarf helm.  Its only 3 variants - and the difference are very minor. :P 

3 variants: nasal, no nasal, and no nasal with eye rings 

The models are 395-403 polys.

I will probably expand the eye slot for the variant with the ring eyes, maybe two rows of rings.  The rings are faked out using a transparent texture so I am not sure how well the approach will hold up if the rings get more prominent. 

Let me know what you think so I can finalize and figure out formatting.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/ironheadHelmVariants3.jpg) 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 26, 2007, 06:30:48 AM
It'S almost insect-like :) me likes..

(http://www.feudum.cz/w_05_006.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 26, 2007, 10:45:47 AM
"Hahaha! You look like a bee, you loser, what're you gonna do?"

"Sting you! Ha!"

"Gaurgh! God damn, I saw it coming!"
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Taal on October 26, 2007, 11:22:10 PM
Aquiefrog: Your stuff is looking really awesome.

Reminded me of a variag helm i made ages ago when i promised to contribute. Quick texture job was all it needed.

(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5278/31281882zl4.th.png) (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31281882zl4.png)

Criticism appreciated.

I've got a bunch of other half finish stuff, i might finish off if i find the time.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 27, 2007, 12:42:36 AM
Taal that kicks ass, truly.  I wish i could offer something constructive...  My only question is poly count.  is 600 or 900 too high?  I see most of the native stuff hovering between 300 and 400.  I assume M&B doesnt bring in model 'normal' info so I wouldn't mind adding a few more polys to mine to smooth the faceplate.     

I have been shamed into retexturing my first helm attempt and losing the ring-eyed version for this helms. :D 

What do folks think of the new stipple texture?  I will probably make a few dwarf helms and likely stick with this metal for a base if no objections or recommendations for alternates.  I think I will try some of the wide-brim open face helmets like Merlkir posted next (assuming there isnt too much head movement/clipping for those brims).

Critique for me too please.  I have already learned a bunch.  Ill post less once Im a little more confident in the expectations. :D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/ironheadStippleTex.jpg)

 



Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 27, 2007, 02:00:55 AM
definitely looks like a thick sturdy piece of metal. Better.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 27, 2007, 07:46:02 AM
Some units from Roma Surrectum:

me lieks ;)

(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8228/thorakitaiargyraspidesuw7.jpg)
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3693/hellenickataphractoixb6.jpg)
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/277/action5xq5.jpg)
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5489/celticchiefcde0.jpg)
(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1746/parthiannobleslg6.jpg)
(http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/2537/persiannoblesnb0.jpg)
(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3857/dahaenoblesta3.jpg)
(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3098/cataphractsen7.jpg)
(http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5747/general1xa5.jpg)
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7348/gen2qv3.jpg)
(http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8071/dracobl1.jpg)
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s148/Drtad/Armlegions.jpg)
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s148/Drtad/Armnakhinf.jpg)
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s148/Drtad/Armmountnakh.jpg)

these are OMG HAXXOR good :)

(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/545/macemb4.jpg)
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s148/Drtad/Armbodycav.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on October 27, 2007, 08:44:15 AM
Brutus, this texture is major good :)


(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8228/thorakitaiargyraspidesuw7.jpg)
Look! Bunnies!  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 27, 2007, 09:01:11 AM
@Merlkir
Never heard of that one, is that a MEII mod? Looks better than Rome graphics. Some nice stuff there.

@Brutus,
Looking good. Good texture. For polys a good rule on helms is to top out at 500-600, or maybe  ~700 (for nice stuff).  They are simply used less often,  making it a top tier only helm.  ~900 is really too high for troop use though there is an exception to that rule made in one case. We have two player reward helms that break 1000 but obviously there is never more than one on screen.

The previous record for troop helms was the old variag mask helm at ~750 or so. Thats pushing it but its only used on one unit type at tier-5.

@Taal
Hey, that looks nice. Send it over.

@A quiet frog,
Nice stuff. Between that and Taal's, Id say the variag mask helms are pretty well covered.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 27, 2007, 09:38:00 AM
@AW: nah, it's ROME, but they've got some very pretty highpoly models and also bigger textures..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on October 28, 2007, 07:48:39 AM
*plays Rome Total War while awaiting for new update*

*frustrated from failure to download the LOTR mod*
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on October 28, 2007, 09:46:34 AM
*frustrated from failure to download the LOTR mod*

Try again.
Very worth the trouble!

Try through the forum: http://lotr-tw.net/index.php
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on October 28, 2007, 05:21:43 PM
AWW MAN
I need Alexander:Total War? I just got plain old Rome ><!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 28, 2007, 10:39:21 PM
Horned helm. 

I would like to do without scale mail in back.  I tried all the hairs models (assuming hair option for helms in future) but they are all too poofy.  None would fit in the helm as-is. :(  I should have taken pic with guy + beard - it looked better.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfHornHelm.jpg)

Fixes?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 28, 2007, 10:53:52 PM
It turned out great.

590 with horns, top bit and a neckguard is pretty damn good! 

EDIT: I dont really have much feedback.   I think Id go with more of a natural horn look over the pure black base. Something with a little more texture complexity to it.  It almosts looks like black vertex coloring over a white base.  Just my two cents. Some of the graphics people might have better ideas than I do.   It sounds like the "display hair" feature will have limited usefulness... maybe for things like headdresses or headbands it might work out better.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 28, 2007, 11:58:18 PM
The black on the horns is how i kept the poly count down. :)  I will change the model if the black looks too silly - I thought it might.  Opinions?  Other fixes?

Speaking of silly, here are 3 more concepts for dwarven helms.  Lemme know if any seem promising.  Dont laugh at my 10 minute PS sketching!   :-[    It was quicker than scanning...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfConcepts.jpg) 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 29, 2007, 12:51:09 AM
the horned helmet is nice. But the metal looks a bit like concrete to me. Dunno.

From the concepts, I definitely like the upper right one, I have thought of using the phrygian helms myself. The lower one...that might turn out good. Can't really tell. The left bascinetish one is...hmm...don't liike it much.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on October 29, 2007, 06:21:36 AM
I like the bottom one  :green:
The upper right one doesn't seem to fit 'dwarven architechture' in my opinion, but yea...it's just me
not very sure about the upper left
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 29, 2007, 06:44:25 AM
Hmm, it was a metal texture but I always have to sharpen them ot they look flat and puffy.  But that does look like concrete huh? :D   I will remodel the horns then change the texture for the horns and the base metal.

Other fixes?

AW, how many dwarf helms do you need?  It sounds like you had a few others already.  I will probably do the bottom one first (as it has a yes and a maybe so far).  Please let me know if its similar to something youve got already.  ALso let me know if you would prefer a different concept or have another concept waiting already.

I was thinking about adding ram horns or something to the Ironhead helm.  It looks just like a kettle helm from te back. :( Anyone have opinions here or ideas for other modifications to make it unique and dwarfy?

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 29, 2007, 07:13:45 AM
There are some dwarven helm concepts on the 1st page of this thread. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 29, 2007, 09:00:39 AM
My two cents:

Yeah, the bottom one might be good to try. The snow giant style crest youve drawn there might help to tie the two helms together. You could do it with the pinhole eyes like shown or try one with the big fish gladiator eyes like this: Either should look good.

EDIT: It also might be good to try stripping the horns from the horned helm (if they are seperate objects) and including that as a bare bones version of the same helmet for lower tier troops.  Modular helmet groups like that add variety.  Though I can do that myself.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 29, 2007, 09:23:11 AM
Wow I dont remember seeing those Merlkir! Those are sweet.  I did see most of the rest, Elves and Haradrim, etc...  You must have added some after I had looked at it.  Or Im a dope... :/  I know someone else is working Dwarf helms and was using at least one of those pics as a reference.  

I had planned on using the larger gladiator style eye holes, not pinholes for the bottom concept.  I should have put more time into the concept before sharing. :P  It was going to be a different profile than the horned helm for that concept (more rounded top, larger knob, and a sweep in the back also larger than shown).  Maybe I'll make the horned helm's knob larger to keep the same feel instead of sticking so strictly to the Frazetta concept pic. 

I will make a second version of the horned helm without adornment or horns.  Should I add a nasal to the non-horned variant?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on October 29, 2007, 09:25:15 AM
A nasal sounds good.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 29, 2007, 09:44:37 AM
yep, the first page is updated by AW from time to time. I think there's not everything I've drawn/painted, but the most important stuff is there.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 29, 2007, 11:28:16 AM
Nice job, Brutus. I'm sure that horned helm will look great when it's finished. ;)

I think we could use (at least) one cool helm for Rivendel (hint, hint). :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 29, 2007, 11:36:52 AM
I think we could use (at least) one cool helm for Rivendel (hint, hint). :)

I've been secretly trying to model and texture some elven helmets. They're mostly mirkwood though.

So yeah, if you like any concept for rivendell, give it a shot. Otherwise I'll draw something new..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on October 29, 2007, 08:04:59 PM
very nice find there on page 71 Merl, especially first 3 screens from Roma Surrectum.

is there any particular designs that need working on anf you don't feel like doing? let me know, i've got my scanner now  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 29, 2007, 10:21:29 PM
Take 2  (more) realistic horn texture, no asphalt.   :lol:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfHornHelmR2.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 30, 2007, 12:24:03 AM
nice :) It still feels like easterling...ish though :) I guess it's just me. Nice job anyway.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 30, 2007, 12:41:18 AM
Take 2  (more) realistic horn texture, no asphalt.   :lol:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfHornHelmR2.jpg)

I like this.  The top-knot is a little funny, but not all bad... the horns are very cool.  You mind dropping a version of this by "Cult of the Big Lizard" as well?  (It would look good on some warlord of the steppe peoples over there, although we might need to add some kind of plume to the top-knot to make it match the others.)

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 30, 2007, 12:42:53 AM
nice :) It still feels like easterling...ish though :) I guess it's just me. Nice job anyway.

Its not just you, its the damn neck flap + spired top!  I didnt want a neck flap but without hair it looks funny. :D  Should I try a coif maybe instead?  Ill try something, I dont like it as-is either.

What about this rev to the ironhead helm - the old one looked too much like a regular kettle helm.  I chunked up the face plate dramatically and tapered the top. 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/ironhead2.jpg)

I need some dwarfification style magic for my next modeling session here...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 30, 2007, 04:50:22 AM
it looks a bit too flower-potish....I like this style better:

(http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/books/crusader-b.JPG)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 30, 2007, 08:27:23 AM
it looks a bit too flower-potish....I like this style better:

Ha, Devo dwarf.  Whip it!  Hopefully that isnt too old a music video reference... 

http://www.sohoblues.com/DEVO/previewpages/previewpage6.htm

It isnt actually round like a pot but it does totally look like a flower pot in that pic. :D  I should have posted at least a front or back pic too.  oi, trying to be quick. 

I love ther candid critique Merlkir!  I think most people are afraid to critique, even after multiple requests.  I'll show it to my mom if I just want approval. :D  Constructive fedback is essential to making "art" that others can appreciate too.  Thanks for the time to review and post.  The feedback has been most helpful. :D     

Unfortunately, that helm will also look like a swadian kettle helm from the back. :(  Thats the reason I was trying to do such a radical reshape.  I was hoping to change the top profile to something with dwarfy style - maybe leaving the realm of helms from human history.  :P  I am trying to find a profile that is easily recognized in game as "dwarf" (in-game from any angle).  I will peruse the concept art again - now that I know its there. :D   

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 30, 2007, 09:04:15 AM
don't worry about the shape too much. The dwarves should also use variety of shapes. The main thing is the overall look of it. There the texture plays the prim. The dwarven stuff we have so far varies in materials too, we'll see what needs ajdusting when we have it all together in one place (like a .brf ;))
The dwarf inspiration is norse/viking/vendel + I tried the transitional greathelms, but then went a bit back to the pot helmets and callotas. It's a bit anachronistic to have vendel helmets and the crusader pot helmets together, but I think both represent the dwarve nature nicely. The vendel helms have very beautiful decoration with carvings and cast bronze motives and they just feel dwarvish. The pot helmets are cool looking heavy helmets that don't come with plate yet, but they look solid and hard. And of course the famous Sutton Hoo saxon masked helm, it just has something angry and dangerous in it's look :)

(http://www.drachenhort.com/catalog/images/P635_th.jpg)(http://web.uni-bamberg.de/~ba5am1/grafik/helm.gif)(http://members.aol.com/lonelymtn/vend1.jpg)
(http://www.regia.org/images/ImageI3.jpg)(http://members.aol.com/lonelymtn/vend2.jpg)(http://www.regia.org/images/ImageI77.jpg)
(http://www.geoffreyofblesedale.com/mediac/400_0/media/my$20sutto$20hoo3.jpg)
(http://www.bladeturner.com/pattern/coppergate/coppergate_original_side_view.jpg)
(http://www.bladeturner.com/pattern/coppergate/coppergate_side_view.jpg)
(http://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/english/allen/images/HELM-SH.JPG)(http://www.wholesaleknives.co.uk/sutton%20hoo.1.jpg)
(http://198.144.2.125/Armour/Full/VendelFrt.jpg)
(http://www.southernswords.co.uk/hgh-s5559-all.JPG)
(http://www.onemanandhisblog.com/pics/nov06suttonhoomask.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 30, 2007, 09:07:40 AM
this quite funny cap is an astronaut one :D I think it might work as a cap for the lowest levies or maybe ranged infantry :)
(http://webs.lanset.com/aeolusaero/Images/WW%20I%20Spalding%20helmet%20(USA).jpg)
and these are sort of fantasy interpretations, but they look pretty:
(http://www.medievalfantasiesco.com/Photos/beowulfhelm.jpg)
(http://www.medievalfantasiesco.com/Photos/barbarianhelm.jpg)

and some pot/transitional helmets:

(http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/300394.jpg)
(http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/GH0154.jpg)(http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/GH0154a.jpg)
(http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/GH0140.jpg)(http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/GH0140a.jpg)
(http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/GH0139.jpg)(http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/GH0134.jpg)
(http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/GH0004.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 30, 2007, 09:10:39 AM
About the critique...it's our beloved TLD, our only child. We want it as pretty as we can get ;) we can't really people to sod off 'cause they suck (if we think so), because there's not that many modelers/texturers/riggers that can do stuff we need. But still we need to maintain a certain level of quality other people have set before. You seem quite skilled, working quickly and the results are promising. We're glad :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 30, 2007, 10:06:03 AM
Cool pics!  ...must experiment...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 30, 2007, 04:05:46 PM
Cool pics!  ...must experiment...

good. Can't wait for the result :)

Finding pictures is what I'm good at ;)

I for instance wasn't even looking for this one :D it has just been posted in my favourite thread.

(http://www.armstreet.com/ebay/art/kermongolsteelscale03.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 30, 2007, 06:06:00 PM
That is awesome!  Very different.  Looks relatively comfy too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 30, 2007, 08:32:11 PM
I've never seen a lamellar like that! What's it supposed to be?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 31, 2007, 12:31:14 AM
Ok, some easterling helmets down and some dwarf helmets down.  Here is a break i took to play before getting back to priority stuff.  There are a lot of shape subtleties you just cant get in 2D. :/  Its a beaten copper texture.  I have been playing with a new UV mapping approach.  i wanted to do something "challenging".

What about hair and beards for TLD?  Are we redoing any of those???

Anyhoo, comments?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfbell.jpg) 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on October 31, 2007, 01:06:59 AM
Ok, some easterling helmets down and some dwarf helmets down.  Here is a break i took to play before getting back to priority stuff.  There are a lot of shape subtleties you just cant get in 2D. :/  Its a beaten copper texture.  I have been playing with a new UV mapping approach.  i wanted to do something "challenging".

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfbell.jpg) 
I don't know... it look too much like leather than copper. Maybe try to give it a deeper color?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 31, 2007, 01:10:42 AM
I've never seen a lamellar like that! What's it supposed to be?

The lace pattern is called "international pattern lamellar".  It was used everywhere ... all across Asia for more centuries than anybody can remember.  That suit, while not specifically matching any historical example I've ever seen, could probably pass for Mongol, Korean, Chinese, Persian, Sarmatian, parts of Northern India, possibly even Saracen, or Mamluk Egypt.  That's about as generic as an Asiatic armor can get.

Struck me as being a little light, though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on October 31, 2007, 01:10:52 AM
Ok, some easterling helmets down and some dwarf helmets down.  Here is a break i took to play before getting back to priority stuff.  There are a lot of shape subtleties you just cant get in 2D. :/  Its a beaten copper texture.  I have been playing with a new UV mapping approach.  i wanted to do something "challenging".

What about hair and beards for TLD?  Are we redoing any of those???

Anyhoo, comments?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfbell.jpg) 

Is that bump mappeed? I assume so it it would be crazy polygons. I think the model is very good but if it's beaten copper it needs a better texture and a better UV map.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on October 31, 2007, 03:03:17 AM
Ok, some easterling helmets down and some dwarf helmets down.  Here is a break i took to play before getting back to priority stuff.  There are a lot of shape subtleties you just cant get in 2D. :/  Its a beaten copper texture.  I have been playing with a new UV mapping approach.  i wanted to do something "challenging".

What about hair and beards for TLD?  Are we redoing any of those???

Anyhoo, comments?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfbell.jpg) 


ok. I assume it's dwarven. The idea is not bad, but :)

- all copper/bronze armor/helmets wouldn't be right. The dwarves would use steel/iron for sure. So bronze decoration yes, but not the whole helmet.
- I would leave out the knot. It looks either celtic - dunnish reference or a bit too eastern - easterling reference. Make it a ridge, a decorated bronze crest..something.
- I'm mixed about the eye holed visor. While I like the idea of adopting the gladiator style visor, I would really make it the way it's on many of the provocator/thracian helmets. So two large eye hole composed of smaller patterned circles.
(aka this:  (http://proto5.thinkquest.nl/~lle0096/images/thracian.jpg))

about beards...we will probably have to. But I can't realyl imagine what we have to do for hte long beards to work with helmets of sorts...hmm..I'll think about it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: fujiwara on October 31, 2007, 07:14:46 AM
I've never seen a lamellar like that! What's it supposed to be?

I've seen this picture before. As Ron mentioned, that's a generic Asian lamellar, though the creator meant for it to be more Mongol in character. As for its weight, it was designed with SCA-style combat in mind.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Eugenioso on October 31, 2007, 07:36:48 AM
i have a little question regarding all of these kickass graphics.-ç

will this destroy the fps in my 2 gig 2.0ghz laptop with 128 mb video card?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on October 31, 2007, 07:53:56 AM
128 mb video card?

What kind of card?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 31, 2007, 10:05:41 AM
This place is great for feedback! :D  Copper is indeed pretty worthless as a helm, I just liked the texture.  I'll sell this one to an antique shop, or as discout costume jewelry. :lol:

Bryce it isnt bump mapped, and its only 330 polygons.  I used the alpha channel for the holes if thats what you are referring too.  OR, if you are referring to the stippled metal, its just a stippled copper texture not a bump map.  The UV map is spot on, not a single stretched stipple.  Nobody likes a stretched stipple! ;)  There's a seem but that can't be helped on a helm shape like this.

I do think I'll try the gladiator thing again at some point - in steel, with the insect eye insert thing, and in no way confusable (I think I just made that word up) with Easternlings! :P  I think these eye holes would have looked pixelated in game anyway - due to it being an alpha channel cutout on a normal sized texture instead of actual model geometry.

Thanks folks.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 31, 2007, 10:54:09 AM
I've never seen a lamellar like that! What's it supposed to be?

The lace pattern is called "international pattern lamellar".  It was used everywhere ... all across Asia for more centuries than anybody can remember.  That suit, while not specifically matching any historical example I've ever seen, could probably pass for Mongol, Korean, Chinese, Persian, Sarmatian, parts of Northern India, possibly even Saracen, or Mamluk Egypt.  That's about as generic as an Asiatic armor can get.

Struck me as being a little light, though.


I've never seen a lamellar like that! What's it supposed to be?

I've seen this picture before. As Ron mentioned, that's a generic Asian lamellar, though the creator meant for it to be more Mongol in character. As for its weight, it was designed with SCA-style combat in mind.

Thanks guys. Yeah, I suspected it wasn't an historical reproduction.

SCA-style combat?

Those are the medieval combat reenactors in the US. The Society for Creative Anachronism.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Fisheye on October 31, 2007, 05:02:34 PM
Brutus: awesome work. Would you also make one that IS leather? I love the organic look of it currently.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 31, 2007, 05:50:48 PM

SCA-style combat?

The SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) does combat re-enactment with sticks and rubber hammers.  Although the force is real, padding is more important than cut resistance.  Therefore, SCA reproductions tend to be very heavy on the quilted arming garments and notoriously light on the metal.  They also tend to use relatively evenly paired weapons, since it is sport competition, which rather forces a medium-range sparring match ... so armors that are useful from horse, or that make it easy to wrestle or grapple, or other unmatched applications, are seldom necessary.  Safety rules, however, require certain things to be covered.  It creates an identifiable pattern in their armor construction.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on October 31, 2007, 08:11:30 PM
For Thorgrim...


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/LeatherBellHelmet.jpg)



Ron, I used to be in the SCA, back ~1988.  Even fought in a crown tournament.  I quit it when I joined the service...  Fighting, drinking and making armor (real, not digital) all rocked.  In the SCA that is!  ...both trips to Iraq kinda sucked. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on October 31, 2007, 09:56:49 PM
Brutus: I like that better than the previous version ;)


AW and Ron: thanks for the explanation :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on October 31, 2007, 11:00:10 PM

Ron, I used to be in the SCA, back ~1988.  Even fought in a crown tournament.  I quit it when I joined the service...  Fighting, drinking and making armor (real, not digital) all rocked.  In the SCA that is!  ...both trips to Iraq kinda sucked. ;)

My brother got back from Iraq about three years ago (2nd AAV Battalion, 2nd Marine Division), but he loved it.  Said the big firefight at Nassyria was "a lot of fun".  I think he's nuts.

I do make maille knife-resistant vests (real, not digital), for those special times when you wish you were wearing a good coat of armor.  (Being in those spots also kind of sucks... even if you are wearing armor.)  That's why I tend to notice that the SCA armors are heavy on padding and light on cut resistance, since I tend to work the other way and build blade resistance with no real sport/safety padding at all.

---------------------------------

What is that material on the helmet supposed to be?  Hardened leather?  If so, you might want to make the hat-band brass or something.  Eye holes could be a little too large, especially on the bottom side.  Also, that block of metal or something on top ... a plume or tuft of horse hair or something along those lines would probably be better.  It looks kind of freaky on a leather helmet.

(I'm a lot better at touching things up than I am at designing them myself.)

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 01, 2007, 12:30:43 AM
Yeah, SCA strikes are all concussive so even heavy helms offer only partial protection without padding (i,e, static weight reduces head recoil).  Hoever, I wouldnt say the armor is less cut resistant.  I think my helm was 14 gauge steel!!!  They would be almost worthless against is thrusting weapons going for the face, arm pits, etc...  I made a chain-mail mask for my helm back when.  Tedious.  Have fun with that... 

As for the leather helmet, the material looks like an American football.  Dunno really...  I just wanted to refamiliarize myself with NURBS tools and try out some new UV stuff.  :lol:
 
The eye holes are indeed too big and the knob on top is busted for sure.  Horsehair might be good for the top but Im not really sure how it fits in anywhere.  Ill wait to see if/where the helmet belongs, and so what should top it.  I'll fix the eyes regardless.  Reminds to much of that guy from Fat Albert - Dumb Donald. :D

http://www.mtv.com/news/moviehouse/photos/fat_albert_040421/images/dumb.jpg

 

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on November 01, 2007, 04:35:46 AM
And whenever possible, try to re-use the existing TLD textures for new stuff to reduce use of resources.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on November 01, 2007, 07:51:54 PM
Ok, some easterling helmets down and some dwarf helmets down.  Here is a break i took to play before getting back to priority stuff.  There are a lot of shape subtleties you just cant get in 2D. :/  Its a beaten copper texture.  I have been playing with a new UV mapping approach.  i wanted to do something "challenging".

What about hair and beards for TLD?  Are we redoing any of those???

Anyhoo, comments?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfbell.jpg) 
I like that helmet  :)
But...I first interpreted it as an easterling helmet, I think it would make a great vairag (sp?) gladiator helmet, or some other kind of easter infantry.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Forral on November 02, 2007, 08:11:26 AM
I like that helmet  :)
But...I first interpreted it as an easterling helmet, I think it would make a great vairag (sp?) gladiator helmet, or some other kind of easter infantry.

Easter Infantry?

(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2488559/2/istockphoto_2488559_hen_knight.jpg)

Edit: Yeah, sorry. The things that amuse me... ::)

-Forral-
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 02, 2007, 08:16:48 AM
I like that helmet  :)
But...I first interpreted it as an easterling helmet, I think it would make a great vairag (sp?) gladiator helmet, or some other kind of easter infantry.

Easter Infantry?

(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2488559/2/istockphoto_2488559_hen_knight.jpg)

Edit: Yeah, sorry. The things that amuse me... ::)

-Forral-

You are easily amused by a simple typo. 

This might explain the generally low quality of commercial films and games these days ... people are too easily amused.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 02, 2007, 09:01:01 AM
Hihihi... typo wasn't too amusing, but the picture certainly was :lol:

I was amused by the effort, so to speak.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Forral on November 02, 2007, 05:38:12 PM
-Snip- people are too easily amused.

And that's a good thing, because people are also lazy, and if it was harder to amuse ourselves, chances are people would just generally be bored instead - and that'd be bad.

-Forral-
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 02, 2007, 07:11:07 PM
So... who's gonna make this model? :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 02, 2007, 08:39:38 PM
Ill stick to non-turkish elements. :P

Here is how I used Merlkirs concept art for a dwarf masked helmet:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfMaskRotoscope.jpg)

Here are the possibilities.  (Critiques and preferences appreciated)   

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfMasks2.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 02, 2007, 10:54:36 PM
I like the mask, but some of those helmets you have it paired with are ridiculous.  They look like NAZI's and Englishmen on safari, and guys with ash trays on their heads.

Proper textures might improve some of them, but in a word, start with some better combat-worthy helmet designs.  Conical tops, maille sides, basic stuff.

But I really like the mask.  If you get some spare time and want to send some of those masks over to Onin-no-Ran, I'm sure Fujiwara can give you some pointers on how to make them look Japanese ... ONR could use some new samurai masks for the helmets over there.  The level of detail you got there for relatively few polys is pretty impressive.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 02, 2007, 11:22:56 PM
The mask is what its about (and where the polys went). The helms are just quick ideas to get a lower poly solution up top.

We are really trying to get some TLD stuff done for the next update, do you have to recruit for other mods in this forum?  :lol: 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 02, 2007, 11:43:24 PM
I like the mask, but some of those helmets you have it paired with are ridiculous.  They look like NAZI's and Englishmen on safari, and guys with ash trays on their heads.

Proper textures might improve some of them, but in a word, start with some better combat-worthy helmet designs.  Conical tops, maille sides, basic stuff.

But I really like the mask.  If you get some spare time and want to send some of those masks over to Onin-no-Ran, I'm sure Fujiwara can give you some pointers on how to make them look Japanese ... ONR could use some new samurai masks for the helmets over there.  The level of detail you got there for relatively few polys is pretty impressive.



LMAO

But I like ridiculous!   :lol:   

There are already 100 of the same things out there and in other mods.  This is a different race in a fantasy world so I do let loose a little.   6 and 7 are actually both English designs, WWI and the pith of course.  No nazis! :P  Though 1 and 9 seem kind of Assyrian or Babylonian or something. :P

They all have a mail coif.  The leather strap goes over a coif.  The beard clips cleanly through the coif - if you have a beard.  Otherwise you see only helm and coif.

Even the largest are like a kettle helm (except 1 which does have like 2 inches above the crown of the head.  Its just the angle and the weird proportion on the mask that make them seem so much different.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/helmcheck.jpg)

Like you said, once textured they wont look AS ridiculous. :D  I just didnt want to UV map and texture 10 of the same helm.   
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 02, 2007, 11:52:22 PM
Heh. Yeah, I agree that too often the same stuff is done over and over.

2 really has something going for it I agree.

Number 1 reminds me of a bishop or cardinal thng. Its like the dwarf pope. Im not sure about it

6 has a miner thing going for it.

3, 4 and 8 are the conventional ones, which are easy to like, if not too interesting.

5 has something too.

9 I dont like.  :P

7 reminds me of an older merlkir concept for dwarf helms. His first one iirc. I dont think its posted in this thread.

Thats great that they all have coifs, I wasnt sure. The strap should probably stay in that case.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 03, 2007, 12:01:29 AM
The Dwarf Pope?!?

 LOL!!!

I was thinking something like that but couldnt put a name on it.  Perfect. 

You guys are killing me.  Im in tears over here... :lol:   
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 03, 2007, 12:14:07 AM
The mask is what its about (and where the polys went). The helms are just quick ideas to get a lower poly solution up top.

We are really trying to get some TLD stuff done for the next update, do you have to recruit for every other mod in this forum?  :lol:  I'm not sure that its very polite.

Think of it as "encouraging cooperation."  If I see something on another mod that would look good in TLD, I would send them this direction too.

If you want some big axes and freaky-looking spear designs I did for Cult of the Big Lizard, I can send those over... I couldn't really think of a good place for them in TLD, or I would have suggested it earlier.  The pole-axes I did for Yogi's Native Weapons Resize will make it into TLD eventually anyway.  When TLD ports to .89x, be sure to get Highlander's topography code for the tactical map (the one where you hit "backspace" and it gives you a map of the field).

I'm not just "recruiting" for other mods ... just encouraging good ideas and sound designs be spread around as much as possible.  Cuts down on repetition of the same work.  I mean, I only do one thing well (combat stats), and I've done this for how many mods?  Every new mod I do, I learn more tricks, which in turn come back to help with the next version of the previous ones.

In the case of the masks, Japan had the longest history of freaky-looking masks on helmets.  A little practice with them should also help with ideas for TLD dwarves or whatever.  If the dwarves are going to go with humanoid-face masks on their helmets, messing with historical Japanese masks would be the way to get ideas.


---------------------

But the dwarf-pope helmet probably isn't going to cut it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 03, 2007, 12:36:45 AM
ok ok no Papal dwarves...  LOL  I must have drank too much tonight or something cuz this is too fun.   

That #1 design was purely trial and error (scientific approach, not even artistic inspiration).  I did a similar helm that looked like a kettle helm from the back (boring).  I tried a taper up and Merlkir said it looked like a flower pot. :lol:  I tried the taper down... and bishopy or Pope-ish. :P   Taper left or right would look too stupid even for me to try so dont worry, no more kettle-ish helms. 

Option 1 has been excommunicated, never to be heard from again...  And all rejoiced. :D   
 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 03, 2007, 01:05:50 AM
If 1 is the pope, than 2 is the king! :P

I like 2, 3, 4, 7 and 8. Good job! ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 03, 2007, 01:53:09 AM
Leather Helms take 2.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/EastLeatherHelms.jpg)

Improvements?  New ideas?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 03, 2007, 02:11:41 AM
Ok, masked helms:

I like them all except 6,7 and 9. they're still really high poly, I would try losing the braids ;) (it might be worth 15-20 polies each..;))

leather helm:

that's variag pitfighter if you ask me. How many polies? me likes :)

edit: even though some warriors wore helmets similar to the WW ones, it would take a good texture to differentiate it enough ;)

(http://antika.avonet.cz/upload.cs/d/de56cc44_b_0_cataphract.jpg)
(the left one for instance. )
or these dudes:
(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3098/cataphractsen7.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 03, 2007, 03:33:40 AM
BTW: I've found some more pics of vendel helms:

(http://www.thorkil.ovh.org/platnerstwo/helmy/wczesne/31a.jpg)
http://www.thorkil.ovh.org/vendel1_eng.htm (http://www.thorkil.ovh.org/vendel1_eng.htm)

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Medieval%20European%20Armour/Vikings/weststow012.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Medieval%20European%20Armour/Vikings/weststow014.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Medieval%20European%20Armour/Vikings/weststow014_Valsgrade_VII.jpg)

I really suggest them as dwarven helmets ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 03, 2007, 08:10:07 AM
@Brutus. I think those leather helms are great. Nice variations too. They could make up an entire troop line culminating in the high peaked one.

@Merlkir. That vendel helm looks nice.

@Ron. I understand, no problem. Thanks for the offer for graphics stuff but I prefer my toys still in the shrink wrap, its just more fun for me. Insipiration and so forth are important factors after this long on a mod project.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 03, 2007, 08:53:09 AM
On the leather helms with the spikes, the hat-band needs to be brass (or some other metal).  It would be necessary for the leather to retain its shape if hit, and/or to help deflect long dragging cuts that would otherwise saw through the leather.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 03, 2007, 12:57:46 PM
Rob, I agree it should be brass headband on the highest one (though i like the stitched look).  Unfortunately to use the same texture they might all have to be brass.  not that Im opposed to that either. :P  I'll play with it.

Merlkir, Ill tweek he helms so they arent as plain looking and put out another round of concepts with more resolution.  Only the mask is 'done', the rest is just blocked shapes.  Im not to keen on the half-mask nasal thoThe helms ugh.  If you look through BRF files youll see a gazillion similar helms already. :/  Whats worse, they have no "pop" in game and never seem to fit right. :P  I think Middle Earth should be a different place to visit than the Native or more realistic mods.  My 4 cents on the half-mask nasal look. :D  I do love the texture though!

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 03, 2007, 01:21:30 PM
I do love the texture though!



beside the totally lovely shape combined with the full mail aventail the decoration and texture is the reason why I'm posting these vendel helmets :) dammit :D,
The point is:
- they're totally nordic. We want the dwarves to look nordic. It's sometimes boring to copy the historical models, but inventing new stuff when there's a pretty good accepted picture and feel to something is a waste of effort.
- the texture is rich and feels like a craft masterpiece * --  exactly what we want the dwarves be about.

The fact that the rohirrim do have similar helms with visors doesn't bother me. We aim for variety, but even in the real world the equipment wasn't so different. For example:

Sassanian knights used this type of helmets :

(http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Military/Sasanian_Helmet.gif)

I've posted some of their pictures before. They mastered heavy lancer cavalry long time before the normans. They didn't use stirrups and the saddles weren't so good, but their tactic was very succesful. Their equipment is not really different from that of a norman knight. And they fought hundreds of years before them and far far in the east.

found this wonderfully painted kataphrakt (parthian one.)

(http://varvar.ru/arhiv/slovo/clibinarii1.jpg)


To sum it up: We DO want something special for dwarves. But there are certain expectations about them from the players and I believe even AW has a vision (everyone does have while reading the books..) of his own. Looking nordic is part of it I think. We've tried adding the heavier helmets and it seems to be working.

My latest obsession with kataphraktoi has nothing to do with dwarves, sorry for all those pictures ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 03, 2007, 03:18:42 PM
See THAT horseman helm is different. :D  Just a simple cone, but very distinct.  I like it!

As for expectations, I say ROCK THEM!!!  I dont expect dwarves to be nordic - though I agree that I expect others to expect that. ;)  As a knee jerk, I expect them look of Smurfy/Frygian  like the movie "The Hobbit" or squatty like Gimli in the LOTR movies. 

When I try to think of a "dwarf" culture, outside of other people's established art concepts, I think of a proud -but short- people.  I think they would prefer large helms (like due to a Napoleon complex kinda thing). :D  Not exclusively of course, but at least as possible as humans taller helms (like that cone).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 03, 2007, 05:13:02 PM

As for expectations, I say ROCK THEM!!!  I dont expect dwarves to be nordic - though I agree that I expect others to expect that. ;)  As a knee jerk, I expect them look of Smurfy/Frygian  like the movie "The Hobbit" or squatty like Gimli in the LOTR movies. 
Aw man, don't even remind me of that crap  :-\
The dwarven armor there looked like EXACT replicas from Morrowind, so i suggest you DON'T make TLD dwarves look like that.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 04, 2007, 01:41:35 AM
Here is the second round of dwarf mask helms.  The crown one (13) is back as-is because folks seemed to like it.  The rest are all new, because the other old ones... well... sucked I guess. :-[ 

Feedback again please.  These, again, are just roughs to be finalized once a general shape is determined.  Thanks.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfMasks2-1.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 04, 2007, 02:19:47 AM
Well, 11 and 18 have my vote.  They look conventional enough to be realistic, and archaic enough to make people think of a somewhat Nordic culture instead of a bunch of Englishmen in safari hats.  Plus they balance with the mask.

Japan put heavy side-skirts on their helmets with masks, as did the Sutton-Hoo masked helm, and most partial-mask designs in history ... you might want to try helmets with heavier material covering well past the ears or possibly down to the shoulders.  Usually shorter helmets, covering only the top of the head, are either modern or designed for peasants/extreme low-end troops.  That looks a little funny with an elaborate metal mask.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 04, 2007, 03:02:15 AM
Usually shorter helmets, covering only the top of the head, are either modern or designed for peasants/extreme low-end troops.  That looks a little funny with an elaborate metal mask.


there's always a mail coif under the helm. I can find a dozen historical short masked helmets with a coif. But yeah, my first page concept too has something similar to japanese kabuto with that side protection..

As for my favourite numbers:

12,13,14 (but make the hat like a kettle hat with a ridge in the middle, it looks too heavy if it's metal now because the actual hat bowl is too cubical and big.), 15, 16 (I like this one a lot), 17 and 18 are good, but I'd like the bowl to be a normal bowl, the widening towards the edge makes me think of those safari hats / WWII helmets. 19 I'm mixed about. Bascinet is ok, but it looks too closed to be comfortable..uh...wrong expression. Hm. How would he put it on?

it's a nice variety, but it'd be nice to have 2 or 3 more masks to go with it so not every single helmet has the same mask. And not every dwarven helm has to be masked, these are for the highest tier warrior class. We seem to have the Iron heads covered too, I guess I'll think about the levies now :)

PS: as for smurfs...I hope that is a joke. I hate smurfs. Probably a child trauma, but I don't ever want to see a smurf ;)  I wouldn't mind having phrygian caps on some of the levies or ranged troops. Vikings (mainly eastern ones) wore caps similar to the phrygian ones...I'll try to find a picture...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 04, 2007, 03:10:55 AM
Smurfs have their uses.  If somebody does a parody fantasy mod, they would make good archery targets for the tutorial.

There's an ongoing joke about the extreme northeast of China, that it's like being surrounded by smurfs ... everybody is short, blue, and communist.


------------------

As for how a person could put on that bascinet helm, assuming the mask goes on first and the helmet over it (i.e. Japanese kabuto), it wouldn't be too bad to put on.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 04, 2007, 03:23:17 AM
For the levies, I'd go with some reinforced leather caps, then some simple conic helms like this one:
(http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_start/reenactment_startseite/bilder___pictures/bilder_aktionen/gross_raden_2007/gr2007_03.jpg)
(http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_start/reenactment_startseite/hezilo/hezilo_militaerisch/kopf_05.jpg)
basically this is what I see as a dwarf in the spear/shield wall :
(http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_start/reenactment_startseite/hezilo/hezilo_militaerisch/mantel_19.jpg)
(http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_start/reenactment_startseite/hezilo/hezilo_militaerisch/drei_03.jpg)
(http://www.skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/Foto/Portrety/bobr_ve_zbroji.jpg)
love the shields :)
(http://www.skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/Foto/Akce/Althing_jaro_2007/DSC09258.jpg)

the ranged troops could wear either bascinets for good vision, or caps like these:
(http://www.reenactment.de/wargame_04_Ivar_Eva.jpg)
(http://www.skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/Foto/Akce/Zimni_taboreni_2007/14.jpg)

going through these old pictures is fun :) this guy was my first inspiration for the elves BTW :)

(http://www.skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/Foto/Akce/Wothanburg_2006/rada_2.jpg)
(http://www.skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/Foto/Akce/Cas_vlku_V/DSC04151c.jpg)

edit: found this helmet and I love it! :D

(http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_start/reenactment_startseite/bilder___pictures/bilder_aktionen/gross_raden_2007/gr2007_02.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 04, 2007, 04:24:01 AM
11&19 are great! :)

And that guy from the picture really looks elven ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 04, 2007, 04:38:27 AM
Yeah, I like that last helmet picture, with the gold-colored trim around the nose and forehead.  Although, in all fairness, I should point out that the maille on that one is as thin as paper.  Looks like about 14 ga. wire on at least 3/8" diameter rings.  You could tear that to pieces with a letter opener.  (I know ... I've tried to make exactly the same pattern.  It was pretty demoralizing when we hit it with a machete.)  If the rings were riveted or spot-welded, it would help (they don't appear to be), but hatchets will still go through that like tissue paper.  Try not to copy that too closely in the concept art - go for one of the heavier-looking patterns.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 04, 2007, 09:21:27 AM
Let's not forget that the Dwarves had a fetish for hoods in bright colours.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 04, 2007, 09:25:15 AM
Let's not forget that the Dwarves had a fetish for hoods in bright colours.

weren't the hoods just for travelling? but yeah, we should not forget that..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on November 04, 2007, 09:39:10 AM
Let's not forget that the Dwarves had a fetish for hoods in bright colours.

Indeed!

(http://www.fpx.de/fp/Disney/Pictures/SevenDwarfs.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 04, 2007, 09:49:30 AM
Here is the second round of dwarf mask helms.  The crown one (13) is back as-is because folks seemed to like it.  The rest are all new, because the other old ones... well... sucked I guess. :-[ 

Feedback again please.  These, again, are just roughs to be finalized once a general shape is determined.  Thanks.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/ibebrutus/dwarfMasks2-1.jpg)



16 is my favorite as well I think.

Like: 12,13,14,18,19

Ill try to whittle that down. heh.


EDIT: I believe the "smurf" reference is more about the tall hat/helm style of the hobbit: http://www.timefold.com/rbhimages/rbh44.img.jpg (link from brutus)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 04, 2007, 10:39:54 AM
Wow!  Im going to have to take notes in order to digest all this.  I apologize if I didnt get to your comment yet.  (or answer in appropriate detail or context)

Some quick replies:
+More full helms (e.g., w side flaps)  can be added but the coif would have to be pulled and they couldnt be very detailed helms.  Most of the helms I showed here are very low poly.
+adding reinforced ridges might be doable for some, Ill have to take notes and check (later on my gaming PC).  reinforcements on curved helmets triples their polys, or more.
+If we go with a less intricate texture per top we can have more styles share the same texture
+there is another mask (made by Prof-420) we are experimenting with also (its cool and blocky - like a statue face) so there will be more than one mask
+ a couple of those conical nasal helms look good for rank and file guys
 
Ha!  For smurfs I meant stuff like this - though not necessarily THAT f'n "smurfy"... ;)   
http://manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=366&g_id=3&c_id=56

 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 04, 2007, 02:46:22 PM
I didn't mean reinforcing ridges, they're not always necessary. They can be in the texture, I meant the helmet itself could have a ridged top. Like the conic helmets do..

edit: the phrygian helms is cool. I was mixed about them whether we should give it to the corsairs, or to the dwarves...I'll think about it, but the mask really speaks for dwarven use..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: aquiefrog on November 04, 2007, 06:06:49 PM
I got inspired by Brutus's masks' defined noses.  So I took my hastily made mask and added a few more details to get some sort of contour without help from textures.

(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/466/maskhelmdii8.th.jpg) (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maskhelmdii8.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 04, 2007, 06:23:16 PM
I got inspired by Brutus's masks' defined noses.  So I took my hastily made mask and added a few more details to get some sort of contour without help from textures.

(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/466/maskhelmdii8.th.jpg) (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maskhelmdii8.jpg)

That's cool.  They hex eyes are unique, and i like the stoic/un-shakeable mouth set.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 04, 2007, 06:48:30 PM
Yeah, I like it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: aquiefrog on November 04, 2007, 07:11:40 PM
The hex eyes are there to save polygons.  I could try making them more almond shaped to see if it would look any better without adding too many polygons.

EDIT:

Brutus:  the mouth used to be a high clown-like smile until I thought it would be a bit odd to go to war with a smiling mask... :)

Just a question, when TLD gets ported to .89x+, would it be OK to make relatively high poly stuff (around 1000) and just make sure it gets  low poly versions (especially for items to be used by regular troops) for use with LOD so that the computer doesn't lag?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Fisheye on November 04, 2007, 07:34:47 PM
Brutus:  the mouth used to be a high clown-like smile until I thought it would be a bit odd to go to war with a smiling mask... :)

Exactly. Smiling masks are awesomely disturbing, cool factor +100.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: aquiefrog on November 04, 2007, 10:02:32 PM
Brutus:  the mouth used to be a high clown-like smile until I thought it would be a bit odd to go to war with a smiling mask... :)

Exactly. Smiling masks are awesomely disturbing, cool factor +100.

Like this?

(http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5740/maskhelmd2hq7.th.jpg) (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maskhelmd2hq7.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 04, 2007, 10:34:26 PM
Brutus:  the mouth used to be a high clown-like smile until I thought it would be a bit odd to go to war with a smiling mask... :)

Exactly. Smiling masks are awesomely disturbing, cool factor +100.

Like this?

(http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5740/maskhelmd2hq7.th.jpg) (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maskhelmd2hq7.jpg)

More smile.  Or draw more attention to it.  Maniacal laughter is good.  Or a Bozo-the-clown kind of oversize smile.

If you're going to do something, do it up all the way.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 04, 2007, 10:44:35 PM
I don't like the smiley.

 >:D -> good for a war mask
 :) -> bad for a war mask

That's what I think :P


/\
|
|
what he said
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 04, 2007, 11:05:23 PM
That's kind of what I was saying.  Maniacal laughter smile  >:D   :lol: or absurd smile   :green:  :D

Not sort of pleasant grin kind of smile  :)

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: aquiefrog on November 05, 2007, 12:13:26 AM
More like this then?

(http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/8200/maskhelmd3zp0.th.jpg) (http://img481.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maskhelmd3zp0.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 05, 2007, 12:23:38 AM
That's starting to deliver the message ... could maybe be even more dramatic.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Duuvian on November 05, 2007, 12:36:09 AM
Its cool. You could also put a candle in it at Halloween and save a pumpkin.

I think this would be a cool pattern for a mask, but I feel I might be alone.

http://www.insaneclownposse.com/images/history_1.jpg

or his buddy:

http://www.insaneclownposse.com/images/history_0.jpg

Here's a better view
http://www.insaneclownposse.com/thumbs/weekly_freekly.jpg

http://www.insaneclownposse.com/thumbs/shaggyshow.jpg

Maybe the black parts with a metallic texture on the previous helm and mask? If you want the extra decoration, that is.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 05, 2007, 01:30:56 AM
I personally hate it. It's true smiling masks are creepy, but it doesn't fit the profile. It's a variag kataphrakt, not a mentally ill chainsaw killing clown. Even creepier are expressionless masks. The triangle eyes even move it to the cartoon realm. I say leave the mask as it was, leave the halloween smile to pumpkins..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 05, 2007, 01:44:21 AM
I personally hate it. It's true smiling masks are creepy, but it doesn't fit the profile. It's a variag kataphrakt, not a mentally ill chainsaw killing clown. Even creepier are expressionless masks. The triangle eyes even move it to the cartoon realm. I say leave the mask as it was, leave the halloween smile to pumpkins..

variag kataphrakt ... deranged chainsaw clown ... what's the difference?

Does a bloodthirsty madman become something else just because he joins a group of them?  (If that were true, the U.S. Marines would have to change their recruiting policy.  Their current policy is that it is easier to teach sociopaths to march in line than to teach sane people to kill.)

Look through some of the stuff Japan used.  Theirs was just as crazy or worse - in fact, that's probably where the psycho clown thing came from.  They did monkeys and puppy dogs and guys laughing hysterically and all kinds of deranged stuff on masks... horse armors that decorated the horse up to look like a really big deer, and all kinds of corny-looking stunts.  And ... it generally had the desired effect of totally freaking out anybody who saw it.


Although the eyes on that one may be a little large, not for aesthetic reasons but just because large eye holes give up protection.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 05, 2007, 01:54:34 AM
whatever. I said what I think. If AW wants it, I'll learn a way to remove it from my game.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on November 05, 2007, 01:58:01 AM
I'm with Melkir on this one.  The big crazy hysterical smiles are freaky but the expressionless, almost arrogant smirk, I would say, fits Variags better.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 05, 2007, 02:06:18 AM
Well, I'm not going to say it is either a good or bad idea for TLD, specifically.  I was just saying that the practice is historically "not unreasonable".  A whole army of those would look a little odd, but one thrown into the group ...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Yogi on November 05, 2007, 02:09:47 AM
I'm with Merlkir on this, I don't like that mask one bit. I'm not saying a grinning devils mask couldn't ever look allright, but it would have to be much more elaborate, like the Japanese ones Ron mentioned. That one looks like something fit for a haloween party.

Some Japanese masks, not saying we need to go for that look, they're variags after all and not Japanese, but it should be closer to this than that Jack O'Lantern design.

(http://www.abbeymuseum.asn.au/highlight_files/japanesehelmet.jpg)

(http://therionarms.com/reenact/com351.jpg)

(http://www.imperialweapons.com/armour/AH2193.jpg)

(http://www.mempo.com/somen_2.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 05, 2007, 02:21:32 AM
well yeah, these look good (they knew why they used it for the immortals in 300), but it would most likely require a custom texture, cause with the helm mapped to the ultimate VK one it just doesn't have the impact...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Taal on November 05, 2007, 02:23:06 AM
I agree with Merlkir. Honestly i didn't like any of the helmets, but thats to out of place. In my opinion, as much as this mod is Ancient wanker's baby, the art and concepts behind many of the models inside the mod are Merlkir's babys, having defined many of the looks and styles for the races, placing him as the top authority, after AW ofcourse, in concerns to content. Which is why i tend to stay true to his concept art.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 05, 2007, 02:38:16 AM
Well, all of this is a two-stage question.  One, is it a reasonable, feasible concept?  Two, is there a good place for it in TLD?

In this case, the laughing chainsaw-clown mask design is feasible ... it was used historically, and not a solitary remote example, but extensively.  However, does it fit with any one group in TLD?  Very hard to say.  Even harder to call, even if it is useful, should it be widespread or merely an occasional example?  What a particular hero character might wear could be very different from what you would want to give to the troops.  (Are there any recruitable hero characters among the Variag who could use a specially modified helmet?  Armory item, maybe?)

I can only say the design was feasible.  However, that certainly does not answer the second half of the question. 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: The Yogi on November 05, 2007, 02:55:04 AM
Here's another mask, this one IS grinning:

(http://www.sacredspiral.com/reference/masks/images/144.jpg)

And another Japanese one;

(http://www.japanese-somen.com/bestmempomenpo/DSCN3487.JPG)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 05, 2007, 06:13:22 AM
I'll drop my 2 cents...

I say NO to a grinning variag masks, they have an emotionless look now, and let's keep it.
HOWEVER, a freakish (but not too much) mask with a grin COULD be good for a dunnish madman of some sort, though it shouldn't be a Kiss-style paint but a regular mask.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 05, 2007, 06:52:31 AM
nah, masks are on a different craft level than the dunnish have..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 05, 2007, 06:56:33 AM
Only variags and dwarves are in the mask group to date. I think we'll keep it like this.

I prefer the original one aquietfrog.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 05, 2007, 10:09:44 AM
nah, masks are on a different craft level than the dunnish have..

Agreed. The Dunlendings couldn't even make mail for themselves, much less helmets.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: aquiefrog on November 05, 2007, 10:54:43 AM
Only variags and dwarves are in the mask group to date. I think we'll keep it like this.

I prefer the original one aquietfrog.

oh crap.  I saved over the original mask.  I'll try to reshape it back to the original.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 06, 2007, 02:09:24 PM
(http://www.termicamica.com/shoutbox/graphics/smiley_heart.gif)(http://www.termicamica.com/shoutbox/graphics/smiley_heart.gif)(http://www.termicamica.com/shoutbox/graphics/smiley_heart.gif)

(http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/berserkri_2007/P1040212.JPG)
(http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rogar_2007/P1090697.JPG)
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rogar_2007/P1090711.JPG (http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rogar_2007/P1090711.JPG)
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rogar_2007/P1100027.JPG (http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rogar_2007/P1100027.JPG)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 06, 2007, 02:20:45 PM
love the armor..

(http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/cas_vlku_2007/P1060297.JPG)

the black helm rocks :) totally easterlingish..

(http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/cas_vlku_2007/P1060322.JPG)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Tostig on November 06, 2007, 02:54:15 PM
To rummage around Melkir's findings:
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rosice_2007/P1110476.JPG (http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rosice_2007/P1110476.JPG)
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/gutstejn_2007/P1070354.JPG (http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/gutstejn_2007/P1070354.JPG)
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/cas_vlku_2007/P1060332.JPG (http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/cas_vlku_2007/P1060332.JPG)
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/cas_vlku_2007/P1060419.JPG (http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/cas_vlku_2007/P1060419.JPG)
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/cas_vlku_2007/P1060385.JPG (http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/cas_vlku_2007/P1060385.JPG)
Anyone else like the helmet in the background and to the right in the last one? A bit too bestial perhaps.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 06, 2007, 02:56:03 PM
hmm, sort of older maske-visor viking one...I think I've seen some similar ones before, I'll see if I can find some..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 06, 2007, 03:02:26 PM
That's a very nice helm design, Merlkir. Awesome!

He must be a very young dwarf... such a tiny little beard :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 06, 2007, 03:37:53 PM
hmm, sort of older maske-visor viking one...I think I've seen some similar ones before, I'll see if I can find some..

I love that one, how the face guard joins beneath a separate nose guard, with more realistic angry eye slits. Awesome mask.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 06, 2007, 03:42:35 PM
This is an interesting inspiration site! especially for all modelers and texturers. The dolls (uh..manequins?) are sometimes a lot fantasy more than historical (aka victorian misinterpretations etc..), but some are really nice!

http://www.valka.cz/galerie/thumbnails.php?album=598&page=1 (http://www.valka.cz/galerie/thumbnails.php?album=598&page=1)

(http://www.valka.cz/galerie/albums/ftp2/admin/Invalidovna2007/normal_IMG_6514.jpg)



BTW: I'll post some concepts tomorrow, I don't feel like scanning them today ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ursca on November 06, 2007, 04:53:16 PM
Oh, precioussss. I spy a picture of some kind of early ducks-foot pistol, a wheel-lock no less! And the swords...

Thanks for the link Merlkir.  :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 06, 2007, 05:07:59 PM
That long hauberk must've been a bitch to wear :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Taal on November 06, 2007, 06:18:48 PM
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/berserkri_2007/P1040212.JPG

Looks more rohanish to me, they could do with a few more helmets. Hm..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 06, 2007, 10:41:43 PM
That long hauberk must've been a bitch to wear :lol:

Probably split in the back so the wearer could walk.

Armor frequently looks worse than it feels.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on November 06, 2007, 10:46:39 PM
"images"
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rogar_2007/P1090711.JPG (http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rogar_2007/P1090711.JPG)
http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rogar_2007/P1100027.JPG (http://www.gleipni.net/fotogalerie/rogar_2007/P1100027.JPG)
Merlkir, what exactly are were those images really supposed to depict? They look like a cross from norse-men to...lamllar wearing nomads? Did vikings wear lamllar? (sp?)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 06, 2007, 11:09:46 PM
Merlkir, what exactly are were those images really supposed to depict? They look like a cross from norse-men to...lamllar wearing nomads? Did vikings wear lamllar? (sp?)

I can't get those pictures to display for me at the moment, but many Germanic and Slavic tribes existed between the Vikings and the Mongols ... Huns, Goths, Vandals, Tartars, Sarmatians, Scythians ... and most of those used at least some lamellar, but also some weapons, armor, and equipment with stylistic effects similar to the Vikings and Danes.

If in doubt, guess Huns or Tartars.

If I could get the pictures from that site to display, it would help.  Probably temporary, but annoying.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 07, 2007, 01:17:31 AM
it should be some kind of viking. The wore lamellar from time to time, especially in the east...

Nari: the hauberk isn't that long, most of the manequins is smaller scale, it would reach slightly under knees I think.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 07, 2007, 04:10:23 AM
OK, I know I promised concepts, but I didn't realize they were secret surprise ones, so I'll show these older elven ones instead :) :D

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/MirkwoodHelmSword.jpg)

these are drawn on the back of my sketchbook, I ran out of blank pages :D
(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/ElvenScraps.jpg)

And my shot at the helmet:

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/elfHelm2.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on November 07, 2007, 04:47:50 AM

And my shot at the helmet:

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/elfHelm2.jpg)

WOW NICE.  The shape seems a bit warped but it still looks VERY good.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on November 07, 2007, 06:55:16 AM
Lovely! (both the concept art and the screen)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 07, 2007, 09:29:41 AM
Crappy doodles from my notebook :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/GlorfyDoodle.jpg)(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/TurinDoodle.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 07, 2007, 09:42:05 AM
Crappy doodles from my notebook :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/GlorfyDoodle.jpg)(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/TurinDoodle.jpg)
Nice :) Especially the soldier.
Personally, i always imagine Turin with a beard - after all, he didn't care about his looks.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 07, 2007, 10:06:53 AM
Merl, that helmet is the most awesome helm I've seen so far in the game :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 07, 2007, 10:18:21 AM
Merl, that helmet is the most awesome helm I've seen so far in the game :D

it's not in the game yet ;) I don't know if it works :D we haven't tried it yet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on November 07, 2007, 03:05:26 PM
The maille on the back of the helmet looks a little odd, but it's still one of the best I've ever seen for M&B. Tweak the maille a little bit to make it look like it's got hair piled up beneath it, maybe tuck it into the neck a little more?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 07, 2007, 03:15:04 PM
I think the chainmail looks good enough, what doesn't, are those scales or plates under the chin (maybe that could be maille too). But you know I love that helm.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 07, 2007, 04:04:32 PM
I need the scales! :D I know, they don't look really right..


Anyway. For fun. Snaga archer :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/SnagaArcher.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 07, 2007, 05:03:10 PM
it's not in the game yet ;) I don't know if it works :D we haven't tried it yet.

Pointless semantics, you cur, you know what I meant :p
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 07, 2007, 06:35:06 PM
I need the scales! :D I know, they don't look really right..

Do you want me to send you the scales texture I used for the Lothlorien scale armor?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 07, 2007, 08:05:45 PM
Nice orc.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 08, 2007, 01:34:58 AM
I need the scales! :D I know, they don't look really right..

Do you want me to send you the scales texture I used for the Lothlorien scale armor?

I think I have them somewhere. I made these lamels myself btw :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 08, 2007, 04:16:52 PM
Just a fun thing - http://www.noaddedsugar.org/images/toni/chainmail.jpg Do only i get that C3-PO feeling?  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on November 08, 2007, 04:33:14 PM
Nice orc there merlkir. Who did he steal the golden helmet from?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on November 08, 2007, 04:50:37 PM
I'm with Merlkir on this, I don't like that mask one bit. I'm not saying a grinning devils mask couldn't ever look allright, but it would have to be much more elaborate, like the Japanese ones Ron mentioned. That one looks like something fit for a haloween party.

Some Japanese masks, not saying we need to go for that look, they're variags after all and not Japanese, but it should be closer to this than that Jack O'Lantern design.

(http://www.abbeymuseum.asn.au/highlight_files/japanesehelmet.jpg)

(http://therionarms.com/reenact/com351.jpg)

(http://www.imperialweapons.com/armour/AH2193.jpg)

(http://www.mempo.com/somen_2.jpg)

The horsemasters of rhune always struck me as rather oriental.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Duuvian on November 08, 2007, 11:50:14 PM
The snaga's hat looks like a looted goblet or maybe a small one of those things fanct resteraunts use to cover the main course. I like it. He looks like he just got done carving something nasty on the other side of that tree.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 09, 2007, 01:34:22 AM
Nice orc there merlkir. Who did he steal the golden helmet from?

The snaga's hat looks like a looted goblet or maybe a small one of those things fanct resteraunts use to cover the main course. I like it. He looks like he just got done carving something nasty on the other side of that tree.

yup, many people think it's a goblet, so I leave it at that :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 09, 2007, 04:46:17 PM
An old sketch from summer job quickly shopped. :) (yeah, the concept is pretty much A.McBride's)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Marines.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 09, 2007, 05:04:03 PM
Are those corsair x-bow bolts?  :lol:

Nice one though. Nice to have those guys out on ships.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 09, 2007, 05:23:43 PM
Very nice, I love the feeling of desperate urgency and movement about the two guys being shot at. Great piece!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 10, 2007, 11:25:30 AM
interesting helmet :)

(http://www.travisconn.com/armor/armrpix/KUBAN.gif)
(http://www.larp.com/hoplite/Tiryns4.jpg)

pretty neckguards:

(http://www.travisconn.com/armor/armrpix/pectoral2.jpg)
(http://www.travisconn.com/armor/armrpix/pectoral1detail2.jpg)
(http://www.travisconn.com/armor/armrpix/pectoral1detail1.jpg)

scythian stuff:

(http://www.travisconn.com/armor/armrpix/armorb.jpg)
(http://www.travisconn.com/armor/armrpix/scythian1.jpg)
(http://www.travisconn.com/holloware/holwrpix/currentme.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Aenarion on November 11, 2007, 08:13:20 AM
This helm was inspired by the stuff I have seen in TLD mod.

Modeled and textured my me:

(http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2207/darkhelmgz7.th.png) (http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=darkhelmgz7.png) (http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1769/darkhelm2mz7.th.png) (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=darkhelm2mz7.png)

Only 600-650 tris.

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 11, 2007, 11:10:49 AM
Looking good, Aenarion! We probably can use it somewhere.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Aenarion on November 11, 2007, 11:37:02 AM
Heh, I was actually going to use it in my mod, but it would fit nice with TLD.  :P  Sure, as long as I get credit for it.  I have made a shield as well:

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/940/darkshielduu6.th.png) (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=darkshielduu6.png)

Maybe I could join your team? I am quite good at texturing and modelling, but I know pretty much nothing about coding...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 11, 2007, 11:59:13 AM
Ah, sorry. I thought you were offering it to TLD in the first place :P

That shield looks great too!

All contributions to TLD are very well welcome and creditted. If you ask me, I don't think we actually have any "official" list of "team members". I think we start considering some people part of the team after they stay working with us for some time :P

Having said that, I think someone with your skills would be very welcome; there's plenty of things you could do for TLD :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 11, 2007, 12:15:51 PM
Having said that, I think someone with your skills would be very welcome; there's plenty of things you could do for TLD :)

*nod nod nod* :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 11, 2007, 12:33:22 PM
Oh yeah, that looks nice. Good job.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 12, 2007, 10:49:50 AM
evil looking helmet :)

(http://www.globaleffects.com/C_pages/Rental/Wardrobe/Headgear/HelmetsPeriod/Renaissance/russianhelm404_hi.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on November 12, 2007, 11:40:36 AM
Holy snaps I like that.
I think it would make a perfect...mordor reward helmet or something for dol guldor (sp?).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 12, 2007, 11:46:03 AM
evil looking helmet :)

(http://www.globaleffects.com/C_pages/Rental/Wardrobe/Headgear/HelmetsPeriod/Renaissance/russianhelm404_hi.jpg)
That's... a russian helmet?  :shock:
It's probably the most fantastic real life helmet i've ever seen! (Though it remindes me of the dwarven helmet from Oblivion, probably the color)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 12, 2007, 12:33:08 PM
yup, I think it's russian..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 12, 2007, 01:04:31 PM
Pity the picture isn't bigger, I kinda like these dwarves:

(http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1364/newimageasppw4.gif)

(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/khazaddum/painting/dwarfgallery/images/em3b.jpg)(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/khazaddum/painting/dwarfgallery/images/em5b.jpg)
(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/khazaddum/painting/dwarfgallery/images/dave1b.jpg)(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/khazaddum/painting/dwarfgallery/images/ty2b.jpg)
(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/khazaddum/painting/dwarfgallery/images/dave3b.jpg)(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/khazaddum/painting/dwarfgallery/images/jake2b.jpg)
(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/khazaddum/painting/dwarfgallery/images/marc2b.jpg)(http://us.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/khazaddum/painting/dwarfgallery/images/ty4b.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 12, 2007, 01:30:12 PM
That's a very nice helm, I love it!

Some of those dwarves are nice concepts.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: War_B*stard on November 12, 2007, 02:08:50 PM
@ Merlkir: Are those the Games Workshop Dwarves? They look nice regardless (unlike Warhammer Dwarves, who are insanely chunky), good find.

What kind of time period is that Russian Helmet?

Plus where do you find all these interesting pictures of armour etc.? You seem to have a knack for finding them.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 12, 2007, 02:22:41 PM
@ Merlkir: Are those the Games Workshop Dwarves? They look nice regardless (unlike Warhammer Dwarves, who are insanely chunky), good find.

What kind of time period is that Russian Helmet?

Plus where do you find all these interesting pictures of armour etc.? You seem to have a knack for finding them.

- yup, GW. :)
- don't really know :(
- google, mate ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 12, 2007, 03:00:13 PM

What kind of time period is that Russian Helmet?
Well the link said "Renaissance"
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: aquiefrog on November 12, 2007, 07:10:28 PM
Um... just reporting in that I haven't forgotten about the maskhelms.

(http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/1235/maskhelmd4ek9.th.jpg) (http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maskhelmd4ek9.jpg)

A new version of Dwarf Fortress came out and that sucked up most of my free time.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on November 12, 2007, 07:24:45 PM
*coughs* From my BFME mod... Models and skins by Nertea..

(http://rhovanionalliance.net/sneakpeek/taragpeek.jpg)
(http://rhovanionalliance.net/sneakpeek/ironguardpeek.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Apoc on November 12, 2007, 07:49:19 PM
Those are awesome! Which mod is it from?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on November 12, 2007, 07:52:47 PM
Rhovanion Alliance.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 13, 2007, 12:21:51 AM
:D nice job, Dain :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on November 13, 2007, 06:34:52 AM
Well those Dwarves aren't by me, hehe, they're by a fellow called Nertea who works on my mod and pretty much does all of Erebor.. and is a godly skinner. I might be able to see about getting some stuff off him if you're interested..

see more here : www.Rhovanionalliance.net

Of course it's heavily movie based so you may set me on fire...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on November 13, 2007, 07:04:25 AM
Very nice, captain. Very nice.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 13, 2007, 08:27:58 AM
Yeah, those are nice. Ive been over the games workshop dwarves before. We are going a different direction helm-wise though I like their scale/coat-of-plates armor look.

Quote from: aquietfrog
Um... just reporting in that I haven't forgotten about the maskhelms.

Looks good. Send them over whenever you finish up.

Quote from: Dain
I might be able to see about getting some stuff off him if you're interested..

Looks like a good modeller. See if he's interested.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on November 13, 2007, 09:05:27 AM

Quote from: Dain
I might be able to see about getting some stuff off him if you're interested..

Looks like a good modeller. See if he's interested.

Gondor buildings I say. Gondor buildings.
And ruins, of course.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on November 13, 2007, 09:45:40 AM
Ha, while he might donate existing stuff, I doubt he'll volunteer to help
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on November 13, 2007, 10:31:08 AM
I'm not dead. just haven't been online in about 5 months. heh.

I've actually been working on upgrading the weapons I did with better textures and models. once I get that done, I'll get it out as a mini-mod or whatever, but they're looking alot better than they did before.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 13, 2007, 11:49:51 AM
Hey, good to see you buddy. Sounds good on the swords.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 13, 2007, 01:16:53 PM
Hey octoburn, good to see you back! :)

The chaimail the bottom dwarf is wearing looks great.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 13, 2007, 01:50:02 PM
I'm not dead. just haven't been online in about 5 months. heh.

I've actually been working on upgrading the weapons I did with better textures and models. once I get that done, I'll get it out as a mini-mod or whatever, but they're looking alot better than they did before.


yaaaay! he's not dead! :) I hope you'll visit more often from now on..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on November 14, 2007, 11:43:38 AM
thanks guys. I should be on more often. still don't have the net at home though. ah well.

so what's the word with dwarfs? I'm at the library and don't have time to read through all the stuff that's piled up in 5 months, but are new skeletons working for the new version of M&B?

oh, and Merlkir: going a few pages back I saw a Mirkwood reward sword sketch. I like it. may take a shot at it once I get my other crap straightened out.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 14, 2007, 12:00:04 PM
thanks guys. I should be on more often. still don't have the net at home though. ah well.

so what's the word with dwarfs? I'm at the library and don't have time to read through all the stuff that's piled up in 5 months, but are new skeletons working for the new version of M&B?

oh, and Merlkir: going a few pages back I saw a Mirkwood reward sword sketch. I like it. may take a shot at it once I get my other crap straightened out.

- we still don't know, the new BRFedit is still not finished :( But Thorgrim released a beta which we could probably experiment with...
- give it a shot if you feel like it :) Have you seen the swords I sent you in a PM a while back?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on November 14, 2007, 12:06:51 PM
yeah, I saw them, but can't save the pics yet. only damned computer in the library without a USB port and it was the only one that was free. heh.

will have to wait til tomorrow and d/l the new version as well as the new editing tools and save a few pics for working on.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Highlander on November 14, 2007, 02:02:22 PM
I tried the animation exporting/importing with the new BRFEdit and it works very well. Haven't tried to create whole new skeletons, but I guess it will work well, too.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 14, 2007, 02:11:54 PM
I tried the animation exporting/importing with the new BRFEdit and it works very well. Haven't tried to create whole new skeletons, but I guess it will work well, too.

excellent news :) I have an important exam coming up so I don't have the time to fiddle with this, but it sounds fun :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on November 14, 2007, 04:22:04 PM
Although it might be worth waiting for some of the features to be polished up (we can't bind hands/feet at the moment which'll make animating attacks and such very tricky.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 15, 2007, 01:42:04 PM
Gods, it's been eternities since I checked up on the Rhovanion Alliance mod, not since I was a member at MeMW :D

But I gotta say, what with you haven't gotten half-way yet, this is taking you the long version of forever :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 16, 2007, 03:55:45 AM
I know we're now concentrating on the dwarves and other stuff, but we should finally get some far harad dudes like this :D

(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q121/klupy/Untitled-12.jpg)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q121/klupy/Untitled-1copy-10.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Highlander on November 16, 2007, 05:41:42 AM
Is that by you? Looks very nice.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 16, 2007, 05:53:10 AM
Is that by you? Looks very nice.

no  :-[ sorry if I implied they're mine, I snatched them at TW from Mysterious KNife mod..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 16, 2007, 11:50:35 AM
Yeah, I think we could use something like that instead of the white shirt. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 16, 2007, 11:57:11 AM
Yeah, I think we could use something like that instead of the white shirt. :)

white shirt is good! in fact it's excellent, but only for the "arabic/desert nomadic" harad line. The far haradians would probably prefer a lion skin ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on November 16, 2007, 03:21:34 PM
I wouldn't feel comfortable if Far Haradians looked too "african".
Would prefer to have fantasy-like trollmen from there rather...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 16, 2007, 04:11:10 PM
Well, I find the white shirt boring. I think they could use something else to spice them up.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Apoc on November 17, 2007, 02:12:22 AM
I wouldn't feel comfortable if Far Haradians looked too "african".
Would prefer to have fantasy-like trollmen from there rather...

I think it's quite clear that they weren't fantasy like "troll-men", but ordinary large black men, unfamiliar to the people of Gondor who encountered them:

’…Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls, with white eyes and red tongues.’*

*’The Return of the King: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields’, p. 136.

Btw, Dain, check your inbox  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 17, 2007, 04:15:21 AM
Nice horned helmets :)

Like these. Ill put them in the secret file

--snip

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 17, 2007, 04:27:04 AM
Holy f**k, where did you get that?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 17, 2007, 07:22:04 AM
Almost looks like concept art for that Karl Urban viking movie :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 17, 2007, 09:27:14 AM
Guys, DeviantArt has finally updated user galleries so we can adjust their organization to our own liking. So for instance I can create a folder/profile TLD which will contain only TLD pictures. And subfolders for all the factions/armor/weapons and shit...
So it'll be organized and easier to search in. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 17, 2007, 09:39:52 AM
Guys, DeviantArt has finally updated user galleries so we can adjust their organization to our own liking. So for instance I can create a folder/profile TLD which will contain only TLD pictures. And subfolders for all the factions/armor/weapons and shit...
So it'll be organized and easier to search in. ;)
Really? Are you aware if it's available for everyone or only the subscribed accounts?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 17, 2007, 10:34:07 AM
Guys, DeviantArt has finally updated user galleries so we can adjust their organization to our own liking. So for instance I can create a folder/profile TLD which will contain only TLD pictures. And subfolders for all the factions/armor/weapons and shit...
So it'll be organized and easier to search in. ;)
Really? Are you aware if it's available for everyone or only the subscribed accounts?

I don't have a paid account and it seems to be working..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on November 17, 2007, 02:25:21 PM

I think it's quite clear that they weren't fantasy like "troll-men", but ordinary large black men, unfamiliar to the people of Gondor who encountered them:

’…Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls, with white eyes and red tongues.’*

*’The Return of the King: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields’, p. 136.

Yeah, you probably mean like one of these two weirdos:
(http://blog.wired.com/tableofmalcontents/images/marilyn_manson_154.jpg)

However I never understood them as large african black men, but as man-like trolls with black (more like orcish) skin.
Instead of the usual fat clumsy troll, I'd imagine these tall and lean, with very dark grey skin.


Maybe if we come up with a concept derived from such ideas:

(http://www.armagik.com/imagenes/Enemigos/Troll.jpg)

(http://larlet.fr/conferences/django/img/MountainTroll.jpg)

(http://www.ffcompendium.com/art/1-troll-a.jpg)

(http://garyjustice.com/renaissance/Troll.JPG)

(http://www.tolkiendil.com/lib/exe/fetch.php?w=&h=&cache=cache&media=galerie:soulcie_romain:rso14.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 17, 2007, 02:53:59 PM
well, I always thought they were just really big african zulu looking dudes. But if we agree on something more real-half-trollish, I won't mind really. LOTR:TW has them like that, they use scythes! :D O_O


here's how they looked in the movies. O_O it's actually quite cool. imo.

http://lotrtcg.fanhq.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=7&listID=55&cardNum=14012 (http://lotrtcg.fanhq.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=7&listID=55&cardNum=14012)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 17, 2007, 03:37:38 PM
Well, I always thought it was just a figure of speech. Maybe even a little racist..heh. But a figure of speech.  I'd prefer Far Harad as simply black skinned men.  Its not really a big deal though, we can cross that road when we get to it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 17, 2007, 07:55:02 PM
No, I really, really doubt they were actual half-trolls. Tolkien explicitly states that they were black men like half-trolls. An exceptionally tall tribe, like the Tutsis (http://us-africa.tripod.com/rwandatalltutsi.jpg), but much broader built, would fit the bill here, with small pupils and very red tongues added.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 17, 2007, 09:22:32 PM
Yeah, they would probably be just big and ugly black men.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Duuvian on November 17, 2007, 09:44:58 PM
He might have meant troll-like in how they act and live, rather than looks. Half-troll might suggest this, since it would be hard for any kind of man to live like a troll, Im assuming.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 18, 2007, 03:47:18 AM
 :lol: this is just...lol. But made me think. Trolls carrying orc archers? ents carrying rock throwing hobbits? :D :D

(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3038/grab019gt0.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 18, 2007, 04:40:43 AM
:lol: this is just...lol. But made me think. Trolls carrying orc archers? ents carrying rock throwing hobbits? :D :D

(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3038/grab019gt0.jpg)
It's not a bad idea... But only if the 'obbits won't sit like that babe  :-\
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on November 18, 2007, 11:25:38 PM
Oh my warcraft III sheeet....
what mod is this? 0.o
or is this personalized? ><!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on November 18, 2007, 11:53:21 PM
Personalized I think I read.  That picture is from the main screenshots thread over at taleworlds. 

Although it looks cool wouldn't you always shoot your "horse" when you try to shot left or backwards.  Would be better if it was the left arm that the character sits on.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 19, 2007, 05:50:02 AM
Some concepts from a friend of mine. His drawing style is different, but it's quite clear what everything is and he has some good ideas I think. I think i might snatch something from it for TLD as well.

http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/1.2-beleriand-noldor.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/1.2-beleriand-noldor.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/2.1-beleriand-sindar.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/2.1-beleriand-sindar.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/1.3-eriador-noldor.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/1.3-eriador-noldor.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/2.2-mirkwood-sindar.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/2.2-mirkwood-sindar.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/4.1-nargothrond-dwarves.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/4.1-nargothrond-dwarves.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/4.2-moria-dwarves.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/4.2-moria-dwarves.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/4.3-eastern-dwarves.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/4.3-eastern-dwarves.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/6.1-esgaroth+dale.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/6.1-esgaroth+dale.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/6.2-rohan.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/6.2-rohan.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.2-early-numenor.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.2-early-numenor.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.2b-late-numenor.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.2b-late-numenor.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.3-umbar.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.3-umbar.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.4-early-gondor.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.4-early-gondor.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.4b-late-gondor.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.4b-late-gondor.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.5b-late-arnor.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/5.5b-late-arnor.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/8.0-sarumans-army.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/8.0-sarumans-army.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/7.3-mordor-orcs.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/7.3-mordor-orcs.jpg)
http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/10.0-harad.jpg (http://phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/10.0-harad.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: War_B*stard on November 19, 2007, 12:13:24 PM
Nice work by your friend.
I like his 'early' variants, particularly the early Citadel Guard.

This is brutal >:D:http://www.phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/1.3-eriador-noldor.jpg (http://www.phil.muni.cz/~janovsky/MEMC/1.3-eriador-noldor.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 19, 2007, 04:41:00 PM
Yeah, I like his style. He seems to have an eastern thing going on with his elves which we dont have. Some of it is neat though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Stemmers? on November 19, 2007, 07:36:30 PM
I like the last four the best. Are these arranged chronologically? The poses in the last four drawings seem the most natural. The other ones aren't bad either -- hey remind me of the art that you see on medieval "plates," which feature exaggerated poses to illustrate the body movements and weapon placement.

The ranger and the hobbit in 5.5b are spot-on, I love their outfits, especially the ranger's long tunic and the helmet with the headband around it. The glaive is great too although the sword's crossguard seems a little funny to me.

In 8.0, the mace is interesting and I'd like to see how it worked as a model, but the Dunlander's hood and the Uruk-Hai sallet are my favorite parts. Would there be any way to adapt the general shape of that sallet and neckguard onto something other than plate armor?

I like 7.3 mostly because the armor of the warg rider resembles that of the Lego knights I played with as a kid.   :)

And I like the Harad tribesman's spear in 10.0. I also like his pants and the loincloth/sarong thing that's covering the leather padding (that is what it is isn't it?). The medallion around the standard bearer's neck is a nice touch and his hat has something going for it too, although I wouldn't want to run in his shoes.  :lol:

Oh, and the fact that the city guardsman in 5.4 has an "alarm gong" is simply awesome.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Bloid on November 20, 2007, 09:15:13 AM
About "troll-men", Tolkien said they had "white eyes". I've read elsewhere that this means their irises and corneas were white, since every healthy human has white sclerae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclera)... If true, ewww. 

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Humaniris.jpg)

Now imagine this, all-white.  :shock:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 20, 2007, 01:45:47 PM
I think it's another issue. Actually, the human sclerae is rarely white. Almost never. It's more like pinkish beige depending on light.
I think what tolkien meant was this:

- you have these black dudes...their skin is black/dark brown. Darker than you've ever seen in your life. What catches your attention in a black area? white/red areas. If the half-troll guys would maybe open their eyes wide like madmen in battle, the sclerae/eyes would shine with intense white, the same with red tongues, they just stand out.

but if we made all white eyes, yeah, that would look really creepy.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on November 20, 2007, 02:38:21 PM
Tolkien's mention of the men of Far Harad, was it the authors description of them, or was it a character in the book describing them?
Big difference...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Rabid Bogling on November 20, 2007, 03:23:48 PM
I like your friends' designs, there, Merlkir. The eastern look to the Numenorians and Elves is quite excellent. The Romanesque Dwarves are pretty nifty, too. I always imagined them as having a vaguely Persian look about them m'self, buy anything's preferable to the recycled pseudo-Celts of generic fantasy. :-\
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on November 20, 2007, 04:32:53 PM
I used to wear white lenses like such, for the fun of it:
(http://contact-lenses-priceguide.com/productimages/5454.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Duuvian on November 21, 2007, 01:06:59 AM
I especially like the bear helm of the Moria dwarves, the far Harad guy, and the Dale guy's dwarven steel axe/glaive thing.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 21, 2007, 11:52:22 AM
anything's preferable to the recycled pseudo-Celt (dwarves) of generic fantasy. :-\

QFE.  Amen brother...

I liked:
Thingol's Royal Guard's axe - but without spike and as dwarvish not Rohan make.  It is very similar to how I pictured one style of dwarven axe myself.

Eastern Dwarves' axe (same style as for Dale guard)

Dwarven "hoe"

Uruk falchion
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 21, 2007, 07:09:04 PM
Here are the elven faces I've been working on.

(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2745/elf01lz2.jpg)
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2356/elf02cn0.jpg)
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1589/elf03qk4.jpg)
(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/3032/elf04ie5.jpg)

I don't like 3 much, I'll probably work on it a bit more. Comments?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 21, 2007, 07:41:34 PM
I like the colors.  I guess #3 eyes looks the least striking in terms of "non-human" colors.  Are you working on the colors? 

I think 2 and 3 have too strong and flattened a profile for my expectations of elf bone structure.  They are like the classic native-american nose and jaw line.  When I think of tolkien elves I think of more graceful than sturdy bone structure.  Are you working on the shape? 

Is it obvious that I was voted the official representative of clueless faction.   :lol:  What exactly should I be looking at/comparing?     

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 22, 2007, 12:56:55 AM
I like the colors.  I guess #3 eyes looks the least striking in terms of "non-human" colors.  Are you working on the colors? 

I think 2 and 3 have too strong and flattened a profile for my expectations of elf bone structure.  They are like the classic native-american nose and jaw line.  When I think of tolkien elves I think of more graceful than sturdy bone structure.  Are you working on the shape? 

Is it obvious that I was voted the official representative of clueless faction.   :lol:  What exactly should I be looking at/comparing?     



These are just retextured native faces, I don't make models myself. Actually, I just modified the textures someone (Triglav?) previously made for them.

I removed any traces of beard, changed eyes shape and color, lighten the eyebrows... and came up with these. They do look better in game than in the character screen, but I took these shots there because it was easier :P

I'll try to post some ingame screens.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 22, 2007, 01:12:32 AM
looking very good. We still have to modify the actual models :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 23, 2007, 03:19:16 AM
just a helm I found :)

Always found these celtic helms amusing...but who knows? :) The dunnish shamans might have worn them..

(http://www.romancoins.info/London%20(33).JPG)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on November 23, 2007, 01:38:16 PM
Troll eyes: Merlkir explanation makes sense, but so does the alternative one (creepy white iris) so we have freedom here, right?
Let's try to make them as monstrous and creepy as we can to see if it looks acceptable.

I can imagine white iris and almost white pupil,
but still visible iris lines,
and with unnaturally small pupil
(to make it eveil and monstrous), like this (quick photoshop):

(maybe make the eyes even
just a little glowing in the dark?)
(http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/~tarini/tmp/newmap/eyetroll.jpg)


Here are the elven faces I've been working on.

Nice!
I like the 1st and 4th most, where the shape of the eyes is more pronounced. 1st most of all.

Do I still see small hints of beard and mustache leftovers?
Maybe the skin tones can be even paler?
Also, is that the minimal amount of wrinkles that we can have?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 23, 2007, 01:56:33 PM
Glowing eyes? why not :) Let's try :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Bloid on November 23, 2007, 07:51:53 PM
There's a passage from an original Conan the Barbarian story (Queen of the Black Coast (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600961.txt)) which suggests another possibility for "white eyes":

...he saw that it was a giant black man that crouched ape-like, long arms dangling, froth dripping from the loose lips. It was not until, with a sobbing cry, the creature lifted huge hands and rushed towards him, that Conan recognized N'Gora. The black man gave no heed to Conan's shout as he charged, eyes rolled up to display the whites, teeth gleaming, face an inhuman mask.

With his skin crawling with the horror that madness always instills in the sane, Conan passed his sword through the black man's body...


So, "white eyes" in this case = insanity and/or berserker fury.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 24, 2007, 01:23:52 AM

Nice!
I like the 1st and 4th most, where the shape of the eyes is more pronounced. 1st most of all.

Do I still see small hints of beard and mustache leftovers?
Maybe the skin tones can be even paler?
Also, is that the minimal amount of wrinkles that we can have?

No beard or mustache at all. That's a good point, I'll make the skin paler. I could give some wrinkles to one or two of them...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 24, 2007, 05:18:23 AM

No beard or mustache at all. That's a good point, I'll make the skin paler. I could give some wrinkles to one or two of them...
Elves with wrinkles? That doesen't sound like a good idea to me
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 24, 2007, 05:47:25 AM
Elves stop aging looking like men in their 20s. A no to wrinkles, that is.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 25, 2007, 04:43:46 AM
I know our Dunnish have mostly stolen steel weapons...but I still find these bronze weapons really sleak and sexy :)

(http://www.larp.com/hoplite/NBsword6.jpg)
(http://www.larp.com/hoplite/NBsword7.jpg)
(http://www.larp.com/hoplite/NBsword10.jpg)
(http://www.larp.com/hoplite/halberd4.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on November 25, 2007, 04:53:09 AM
Those are good designs, no matter what they were made of.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on November 25, 2007, 12:46:59 PM
About wrinkles, a small clarification: that's exactly what I meant, that there should be none on elvish faces, and so I was asking if the textures are as much wrinkle-free as they can be (some apparent wrinkles could be the result of the way the texture is "stretched on" the face model, rather than what it is painted in it).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 25, 2007, 02:03:00 PM
About wrinkles, a small clarification: that's exactly what I meant, that there should be none on elvish faces, and so I was asking if the textures are as much wrinkle-free as they can be (some apparent wrinkles could be the result of the way the texture is "stretched on" the face model, rather than what it is painted in it).

Ah, OK. I thought you were asking for wrinkles :P If you see any suggestion of wrinkles there, it's just because of the light. In game their skin looks very smooth. I'll post some screens later.

Here you go, with black hair this time:

(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5580/elvenfaces01ns1.jpg)

I haven't made their skin paler yet. And again, I'll have to work on 3 a bit; I think it doesn't look good enough...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 25, 2007, 03:17:20 PM
2 and 4 look great.  Like the eyes on 1 the best.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 25, 2007, 05:33:49 PM
:) Some not clasified concept art ;)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/HaradHeavySwords.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 25, 2007, 05:40:18 PM
Wow! That looks great!!!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: mtarini on November 25, 2007, 05:41:57 PM
Wow! Isn't that quite a brust of impressive artistic activity. You should do written exams more often! ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on November 25, 2007, 09:13:26 PM
Yeah, I like all of the elements there. Very nice.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on November 26, 2007, 03:08:17 AM
About wrinkles, a small clarification: that's exactly what I meant, that there should be none on elvish faces, and so I was asking if the textures are as much wrinkle-free as they can be (some apparent wrinkles could be the result of the way the texture is "stretched on" the face model, rather than what it is painted in it).

Ah, OK. I thought you were asking for wrinkles :P If you see any suggestion of wrinkles there, it's just because of the light. In game their skin looks very smooth. I'll post some screens later.

Here you go, with black hair this time:

(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5580/elvenfaces01ns1.jpg)

I haven't made their skin paler yet. And again, I'll have to work on 3 a bit; I think it doesn't look good enough...

Do elves have black hair?  I thought they had light brown - chestnut brown at the darkest.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 26, 2007, 04:47:27 AM
Do elves have black hair?  I thought they had light brown - chestnut brown at the darkest.
Didn't Feanor have black hair? Or at least Maeglin or Eol?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 26, 2007, 05:58:50 AM
All Noldor had pitch black hair, apart from a few who had red hair.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 26, 2007, 07:14:04 AM
I forget the exact quote, but it was something like "Elrond had some damn black hair".   :lol:  1, 2, and 4 look awesome btw!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 26, 2007, 02:25:42 PM
Again, all Noldor had black hair! That's a third of all of them, damnit! :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on November 26, 2007, 10:06:44 PM
I thought that the Noldor were very few in numbers... about a handful of them, at least in the third age (when the war of the ring takes place).

Quote from the Tolkien Gateway:

"In the Third Age, the Ñoldor dwindled, and by the end of the Third Age the only Ñoldor remaining in Middle-earth were in Rivendell, with the exception of Galadriel in Lothlórien. "

Most Noldor have already left Middle-earth in the Third Age, and 3 years after the Ring is destroyed, the last few have left and none remain.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boiled Ice on November 26, 2007, 11:00:39 PM
Looks like I stand corrected :p
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 27, 2007, 03:13:03 AM
That's, of course, in Middle-earth. In Valinor they thrived like viagra'd bunnies.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Alaknar on November 27, 2007, 04:26:29 AM
All Noldor had pitch black hair, apart from a few who had red hair.

Red hair? Didn't know that. But let's not forget Glorfindel, the Lord of the House of Golden Flower -> some Noldo had golden hair.

And as for Noldor in Middle Earth - what about Cirdan and all the Gray Heavens' dudes? Or where they Sindar?

Cheers!

PS. Have some serious computer issues, but if only possible I come by and admire your work. I especially like this bronze stuff Merlkir posted, although I'd see this as Elven equipment - leaf-shaped blades rule! : )
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on November 27, 2007, 05:29:23 AM
All Noldor had pitch black hair, apart from a few who had red hair.

Red hair? Didn't know that. But let's not forget Glorfindel, the Lord of the House of Golden Flower -> some Noldo had golden hair.
Maedhros?  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on November 27, 2007, 03:21:02 PM
The folk of Lindon were many Sindar, many Noldor, and mostly Nandor, though I'm pretty sure a shitload of those Nandor and Sindar left with Oropher to Mirkwood and Lórien.

As for Glorfindel - he has Vanyarin blood, hence he's not a Noldo, but half a one.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on November 28, 2007, 11:24:52 PM
Merl, great concept of Harad heavy infantry!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on November 30, 2007, 09:27:19 PM
I just found these gorgeous Rohirrin-style (and more) helms:

http://www.hunter-craft.com/Helmets-Gallery.html

More here:

http://www.hunter-craft.com/Helmets-Catalog.html


And look at this armor here:

http://www.hunter-craft.com/Armour-Gallery.html


Awesome work, me thinks.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on November 30, 2007, 10:11:46 PM
I just found these gorgeous Rohirrin-style (and more) helms:

http://www.hunter-craft.com/Helmets-Gallery.html

More here:

http://www.hunter-craft.com/Helmets-Catalog.html


And look at this armor here:

http://www.hunter-craft.com/Armour-Gallery.html


Awesome work, me thinks.

Those ARE pretty spiffy!  Have no doubt...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on December 01, 2007, 07:44:57 AM
OH! aren't those pretty! love the horse crest plumes...these almost scream "make a texture outta me! " :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 01, 2007, 04:04:22 PM
Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to make textures out of them, with all those high resolution pictures taken from several angles :)

I wish we could have horse crest plumes looking like these in TLD.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Rathyr on December 01, 2007, 09:14:44 PM
Why can't you?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 01, 2007, 09:37:49 PM
Because if we use the alpha channel for shine, we can't use it for transparency. And it would be static, but maybe that can be changed on the future...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on December 01, 2007, 10:56:33 PM
Because if we use the alpha channel for shine, we can't use it for transparency. And it would be static, but maybe that can be changed on the future...

There are several ways around this.  mtarini is working up a set of shaders for ONR to do exactly that - put both transparency and shine on the same object.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 02, 2007, 12:21:26 AM
Well, that would be great. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on December 02, 2007, 03:03:32 AM
Because if we use the alpha channel for shine, we can't use it for transparency. And it would be static, but maybe that can be changed on the future...

as Ron said, mtarini's shader pack should allow that ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 02, 2007, 04:37:31 AM
Then, we'll just need to give them movement :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on December 02, 2007, 04:50:29 AM
Then, we'll just need to give them movement :green:

Actually, there are stunts to do that with shaders too.  Don't ask me how ... It's more complicated than I can follow.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 02, 2007, 05:04:17 AM
Yeah, I know it should be possible somehow.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on December 05, 2007, 04:47:27 PM
A very interesting helm replica, apparently made of horn and iron plating:

(http://www.idigsheffield.org.uk/images/collection/full/1995_260.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on December 06, 2007, 09:35:04 AM
The helmet is awesome, the plume is beyond ugly :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on December 06, 2007, 12:53:54 PM
The helmet is awesome.  The plume is ugly in the sense of the traditional spartan crest.  But if you look closely its a most righteous, albeit duly ugly, rendition of a wild boar or warthog.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on December 06, 2007, 01:00:22 PM
An ugly plume looking like an ugly animal doesn't help at all :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on December 06, 2007, 01:06:00 PM
An ugly plume looking like an ugly animal doesn't help at all :P

You just called a boar ugly?  >:(
My tribe of boar warriors shall never cease hunting you!!!

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on December 06, 2007, 05:21:52 PM
great model and texture. Well, could be less rusty, but still great. From TW.

(http://tyler.brenot.ca/wip/nhwip03.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on December 06, 2007, 07:20:51 PM
Nice one, the steel and rust reminds me of Ursca stuff.  Must be a big texture.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 07, 2007, 02:45:07 AM
Yeah, that looks great.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on December 07, 2007, 07:34:52 AM
That looks awesome.  The rust is a little much though.  It might come off as brown (leathery?) in game.

*texture size envy*
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Nahkis on December 08, 2007, 04:03:30 AM
It's nice, but as Brutus said, it shouldn't be as rusty as that.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Chilly5 on December 09, 2007, 11:52:44 AM
:) Some not clasified concept art ;)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/HaradHeavySwords.jpg)
Sorry, a couple pages late, but wow Merlkir, that concept art is absolutly gorgeous.  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on December 09, 2007, 12:49:20 PM
I've watched Sandokan movies as a kid :D ;)

(http://www.kel12.com/photos/uploaded_1128602770_2.jpg)
(http://www.wumingfoundation.com/images/sandokan.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on December 09, 2007, 08:47:34 PM
yeah, this is my second favourite from Merl. especially the armor and helmet. simply stunning.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 09, 2007, 10:33:19 PM
Looks much better than Sandokan, that's for sure! :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on December 10, 2007, 05:20:28 AM
Yup, Sandokan looks like a bad copy of Merlkirs artwork :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on December 10, 2007, 12:28:35 PM
Whoa, what was Sandokan? *sheltered*  Cant blame cartoons for poor detail.  Looks like an interesting story there.  Must investigate...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on December 10, 2007, 05:15:50 PM
Ive never heard of him either.  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on December 11, 2007, 12:11:27 AM
;) :D along with the western films the Germans made in Croatia (:D sounds crazy, but they were great...Vinnetou and Old Shatterhand...) Sandokan was one of the few adventure films we could watch here..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandokan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandokan)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 11, 2007, 12:05:36 PM
I watched the series here in Portugal too, when I was a kid :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on December 11, 2007, 02:50:49 PM
;) :D along with the western films the Germans made in Croatia (:D sounds crazy, but they were great...Vinnetou and Old Shatterhand...) Sandokan was once of the few adventure films we could watch here..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandokan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandokan)

Cool!  Im gonna try to get some of the books/movies.  If even one of them is good Ill probably end up with a whole set... 

<3 pirates
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on December 12, 2007, 02:01:08 AM
It's probably crap, but for me and half of the Czech Republic it has nostalgic value ;)

This clip has the most famous scene where Sandokan cuts open a tiger in mid flight!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dTOW2iBkyPA (http://youtube.com/watch?v=dTOW2iBkyPA)

 :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 12, 2007, 02:10:32 AM
Sandokaan, Sandokaan, lalalalalalalalala... :lol:

That's horrible, tigers are a protected species!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on December 12, 2007, 10:42:03 AM
It's probably crap, but for me and half of the Czech Republic it has nostalgic value ;)

This clip has the most famous scene where Sandokan cuts open a tiger in mid flight!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dTOW2iBkyPA (http://youtube.com/watch?v=dTOW2iBkyPA)

 :green:

OMG that was hilarious!  :lol:  I love the concept. 

The falchion he is holding while jumping around on the boat is exactly what I was trying to get with the revised Rhun falchion.  Ill have to grab a still of it.

Good stuff. :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: odvjetnik on December 12, 2007, 12:49:10 PM
;) :D along with the western films the Germans made in Croatia (:D sounds crazy, but they were great...Vinnetou and Old Shatterhand...)
Ha, world is small.
The western town where those movies were shot was set up near my dad's native village, after school they would go down to watch the filming, I heard many stories about it. Had no idea those movies were so popular.
Most nature scenes were shot in national parks.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on December 13, 2007, 09:25:01 AM
a sneak peak at the reworked swords...

(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3656/swordsnp5.th.jpg) (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsnp5.jpg)

I haven't gotten completely up to speed yet... do models still have to be triangulated, or just quadrangulated?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 13, 2007, 10:41:57 AM
Looking good!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on December 13, 2007, 10:44:01 AM
Yep, those look nice.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on December 13, 2007, 10:48:06 AM
a sneak peak at the reworked swords...

(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3656/swordsnp5.th.jpg) (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsnp5.jpg)

I haven't gotten completely up to speed yet... do models still have to be triangulated, or just quadrangulated?

Nice swords.

I have to triangulate my stuff or I lose a random poly.  ???  Triangulate to be safe.  Finding one missing poly when you think you are done is a tad frustrating...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on December 13, 2007, 11:12:40 AM
oooh, very nice swords. I have a very minor feeling of dejavu though :D I must've seen them before...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on December 13, 2007, 02:08:36 PM
a sneak peak at the reworked swords...

(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3656/swordsnp5.th.jpg) (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsnp5.jpg)

I haven't gotten completely up to speed yet... do models still have to be triangulated, or just quadrangulated?
Very very shweet  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on December 13, 2007, 05:40:31 PM
I like those swords a lot! :)

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on December 13, 2007, 08:50:22 PM
Damn, those swords are sexy. Especially the Rohirric two-hander.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on December 14, 2007, 11:19:02 AM
oooh, very nice swords. I have a very minor feeling of dejavu though :D I must've seen them before...

you have, mostly... these are just graphical improvements on the swords I had in the game already. but, I have been working on some other weapons of my own, as well as a few from your sketches (already did models for the two "westernesse swords" just need to texture them.)

EDIT: and I'll be the first to admit, the textures are mostly photos, but I've consolidated them pretty well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on January 31, 2008, 04:23:13 PM
After a long time I painted something that I'm allowed (I think so) to show ;)
(the funky colors are probably due to the late hour in which I painted this :D)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/LionHeavyInfantry.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on January 31, 2008, 06:16:50 PM
I like it alot. Visually interesting.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on January 31, 2008, 10:10:27 PM
Me likes! :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 01, 2008, 05:25:58 PM
Trying Artrage. :) traditional media are SO messy! :D

edit: I'm aware of it's crappiness and I'm proud to shift the blame upon my today's injury! I've cut through my thumbnail all the way into the actual thumb. It looks pretty ugly and I can't almost hold the tablet :D but Artrage is fun.

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Osgi.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: pagan on February 01, 2008, 05:53:50 PM
crapiness indeed  ::) you have a wonderfull style mirlkir,i love looking at your concept art.

i pulled over my partner to look at your stuff, she is a an artist herself,  and she says you have a "beautifully unique life within each picture" i personally think they are perfect for LOTR, the style and tolkiens world go hand in hand.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on February 01, 2008, 07:13:11 PM
Me likes! :D

i agree, it is stunning! the concept is quite unique and goes perfectly with the theme. congrats!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 01, 2008, 09:07:45 PM
Looks cool. Gondor place?

Thumb wound sounds nasty.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 02, 2008, 02:52:52 AM
:D thanks guys. The thumb is much better today. It was supposed to be osgilliath, but I realized (too late) I screwed the perspective and it became just a doodle to find out what the program can do :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on February 02, 2008, 06:40:39 AM
Great concept art as usual, Merlkir :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on February 02, 2008, 07:55:27 AM
Well Osgiliath was the first thought which came into my head :P so you did a good job :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 02, 2008, 08:43:50 AM
Yeah, I thought the same. I like it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 04, 2008, 11:38:14 AM
Sorry for double post :P

I've been reworking the Lothlorien archers (among other things), here's the leather version (WIP):

(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3722/lotharcherleather01so8.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 04, 2008, 11:58:48 AM
I like it a lot. But why is the lower part more greener than brownish?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 04, 2008, 12:50:18 PM
I like it a lot. But why is the lower part more greener than brownish?

Because it's not leather. It could be leather, though.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 04, 2008, 03:15:45 PM
so the upper part is leather and it ends on the belt? down there it's fabric?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 04, 2008, 03:17:54 PM
Yeah. But it will probably look better if I make it leather all the way down.


EDIT: like this.

(http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/9061/lotharcherleather02vj8.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 05, 2008, 02:52:16 PM
I kinda liked that neckguard thingie in the previous version.. :(

Do you intend to add some flora/organic/leaf ornaments or something? It's a nice design and a cool texture, but doesn't look elven in particular...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 05, 2008, 02:56:59 PM
There's no way to make that neck thingy look good from all angles, so I took it out. Yeah, I thought about giving some orrnamental work to the leather, but I haven't done it yet ;) That will be easy, the hard part is already done.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 05, 2008, 03:05:14 PM
Looks good, more distinctive than the half-leather.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: pagan on February 05, 2008, 03:44:33 PM
that looks great i think. the full leather version that is, but it does look better with the neck part and full leather.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 05, 2008, 06:30:15 PM
Since the Elves of Mirkwood are so bloody leather-based, I think we should give them some boiled leather cuirasses.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on February 05, 2008, 10:26:13 PM
Or perhaps some elven plate armour?

Edit: Oops... wrong forum :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 06, 2008, 04:02:24 AM
Quote
Naridill hammers his chest, hands suddenly transforming into vicious claws. He screams, at first, in pain, then roars, then howls, as his body grows fur and his stature reaches a good eight feet in height. Banjeeboy makes a futile run for it, but as the spasms coursing through Naridill's body cease, he gives pursuit, and in a matter of seconds the prey is in claw's reach and the slaughter commences.

Banjeeboy was mutilated to death by the Werewolf.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 06, 2008, 04:11:06 AM
we need a wandering werewolf party. They will meet the player quite often and ask him questions about Tolkien lore. One of the most common questions would be : "Do we have plate armor?" and the wrong answer will lead to a battle with the totally imba werewolves. Of course, Nari can be the leader ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on February 06, 2008, 06:46:28 AM
Quote
Naridill hammers his chest, hands suddenly transforming into vicious claws. He screams, at first, in pain, then roars, then howls, as his body grows fur and his stature reaches a good eight feet in height. Banjeeboy makes a futile run for it, but as the spasms coursing through Naridill's body cease, he gives pursuit, and in a matter of seconds the prey is in claw's reach and the slaughter commences.

Banjeeboy was mutilated to death by the Werewolf.

This reminds me of my old MUDding days :)

The elven armours in the game (and the new Mirkwood one) is exactly how I would imagine elven armour if I had better imagination... so I certainly don´t want any elven plate into the game.
Promise.

A playable Balrog in plate though, thats a totally different matter... Werewolf Balrog in plate perhaps?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 06, 2008, 07:14:40 AM
Don't forget the fiery, corded, knotted, spiked, evil, whip of doom +1.  :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 06, 2008, 09:46:46 AM
we need a wandering werewolf party. They will meet the player quite often and ask him questions about Tolkien lore. One of the most common questions would be : "Do we have plate armor?" and the wrong answer will lead to a battle with the totally imba werewolves. Of course, Nari can be the leader ;)

And afterwards follows a cutscene where the Naridill does what he does best with the corps. Cannibalismophilia :lol:

I'm telling you, my nickname's kickass.

Hell, screw that, Gothmog's fiery war axe is the best :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on February 06, 2008, 12:08:07 PM
Bah! I prefer my Ring of Invisibility...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 06, 2008, 04:38:49 PM
So, now you're invisible and puny, doesn't make that much difference for the Prince of the Balrogs and his axe :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 09, 2008, 07:25:39 AM
Some buildings I've cooked up.

(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2125/newbitmapimageqp5.png)

Another ruined one of the left.

(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1691/newbitmapimage2yg6.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 09, 2008, 08:28:12 AM
these are fucking brilliant! pardon my french....

Gosh, I really love those! I hope we get more...Osgilliath can finally happen now :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 09, 2008, 09:26:14 AM
Looking good, Llew! :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 09, 2008, 12:58:38 PM
 :o
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 09, 2008, 02:30:14 PM
I couldn't resist messing around with the render ;)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/OsgiliathLlew.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 09, 2008, 02:43:58 PM
Very nice, makes it alive. Is that a Dwimmerlaik I see flying there?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 09, 2008, 02:54:08 PM
yeah, I guess so :) I suck at matte painting though. It's just a mockup to see how it could look in a scene :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 09, 2008, 03:05:38 PM
Very cool.  We could almost erase half the scene and use it as the osgiliath splash screen. heh.

This stuff should make some good scenes.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 09, 2008, 05:52:55 PM
Just rethinking some stuff about the elven helms. My friends are getting wasted (and they already are...they're pretty loud about it ;)) in the next room. So I turned the music up and started doodling :)

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/ElvenHelmsDoodles.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on February 09, 2008, 06:42:12 PM
gods, I wish I could do that when I start doodling..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 09, 2008, 07:09:27 PM
Damn it, I love that Rivendell helmet! :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on February 09, 2008, 07:19:50 PM
dear baby Jesus, these are beautiful! especially Rivendell
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on February 09, 2008, 07:35:02 PM
Just rethinking some stuff about the elven helms. My friends are getting wasted (and they already are...they're pretty loud about it ;)) in the next room. So I turned the music up and started doodling :)


Sounds like your "friends"  ARE a waste.  Maybe you should, between sketches, think about finding new friends.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 09, 2008, 10:51:41 PM
I couldn't resist messing around with the render ;)

*snip*
Holy. Freaking. Crap.   :o

Dang, but that is amazing!  :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 10, 2008, 09:14:43 AM
Nice stuff, Merlkir.

I just love the Rivendel helm, but I'd like to see some variants on the Lorien one. I like the Rivendel helm for his simplicity and fluid lines, and that's what I think is missing on the other one.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 10, 2008, 09:26:57 AM
yea, you're probably right...Elven stuff is SO hard to design ;) I even had to steal shapes from the movie helmets...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 10, 2008, 09:30:49 AM
Maybe you could integrate the chick cheek (spelling? :P) protections into the helm itself, and not as a separate piece? Just an idea...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on February 10, 2008, 05:11:45 PM
...how I would have pictured elven helmets, if I had better imagination :)
There is a concept art compilation, kind of, over at taleworlds... but I would like to see one here on this forum aswell... just the art, and no comments.

I think it looks great with an "armour-beneath-armour" look of the cheekguards actually, and I would like to see them implemented as close to the concept art as possible. (a wish, not a demand :)... it's not like I'm the one doing all the hard work )
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 10, 2008, 05:36:39 PM
well, you can see all my pictures in my DA gallery, you know...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 10, 2008, 06:37:41 PM
Those are both nice ones. We do need a good rivendell helm in particular.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on February 10, 2008, 06:49:55 PM
well, you can see all my pictures in my DA gallery, you know...

Thanks for reminding me... I had a look quite some time ago, and I forgot that it existed... good great stuff!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on February 10, 2008, 07:38:59 PM
That Rivendell sketch is super sweet.  The helm would be a cool design, but the character/color steals all the glory limelight.  Excellent paint work. :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 10, 2008, 10:00:18 PM
Alright, here is my humble rendition of the Rivendell Helmet.

(http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9822/newbitmapimagede0.png)

259 Faces, which would equal about 500 tris.


Pronounce your verdict.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on February 11, 2008, 12:08:23 AM
That is pretty slick llew.  I think you should add a coif or something though - or you will see a lot of bald head because there is no hair when you have a helmet on.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 11, 2008, 12:59:58 AM
Agreed, needs an aventail.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2008, 05:52:18 AM
Yup, add a coif if possible. Also, the down side rim doesn't really form those two sharp shapes, it's bad angle and bad rendering by me :) It goes round to the back where it forms a slight spike-ish end...something like the movie helms have. Of course we can keep your version, but please, try this as well :) The shape is like a normal helmet and near the bottow rim it rolls out to form a bell like shape..Shit, I can't describe it well at all :)

http://www.shadowdalecreations.com/elvenarmor_medium_3.jpg (http://www.shadowdalecreations.com/elvenarmor_medium_3.jpg)
http://www.shadowdalecreations.com/elvenarmor_medium_4.jpg (http://www.shadowdalecreations.com/elvenarmor_medium_4.jpg)
http://www.shadowdalecreations.com/elvenarmor_medium_5.jpg (http://www.shadowdalecreations.com/elvenarmor_medium_5.jpg)

I figured this might be a problem. I realized I painted it a bit wrong too late and I was too lazy to fix it :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 11, 2008, 07:06:14 AM
Ah, I see now. I was wondering about it, and saw slight flare but was not sure how far to take it.

As for the coif, should it start from? Just the back? In which case I might be able to do entirely without it if I just bring the bell/tail far enough down the neck.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on February 11, 2008, 07:20:03 AM
Well actually we can have hair now... it's just a lot of them cause clipping unless the hair is design is built for it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 11, 2008, 07:35:47 AM
Yeah. Maybe we should do two versions, on with mail and one without.

Here is a version with the drawn out tail.

(http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/42448/2001449441849997322_rs.jpg)

I still don't know where I want to put the mail though. It should go under the eyes, but how far around the back? It would look weird if it followed the contour of the ears.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2008, 07:44:03 AM
looks good. I would soften the line of the rim a bit. The coif..we can have version like mail for knights and infantry and leather or cloth for archers. If you don't want to model it from scratch, you one of the coives from the existing models. I wonder if the polycount won't be too hight though. 500+ tris + the coif...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 11, 2008, 08:15:01 AM
With coif. About 560 tris.

(http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/45188/2005248222646610952_rs.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2008, 09:35:23 AM
that's a huge misunderstanding! :) we didn't want full coif that covers the whole head! just a normal coif like is in the picture and that many helms in MaB have...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 11, 2008, 10:02:26 AM
Ahh, I think I gotcha now.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 11, 2008, 10:37:46 AM
No need to make it yourself, just take the vanilla coif and cut it in half or so, then attach it (or just move it next to) your helm top.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 11, 2008, 10:38:56 AM
Yeah, just did. So, is this more like it? It will need quite a bit of optimization, but I can make it work when I know i'm on the right track.  :P

(http://aycu14.webshots.com/image/44253/2000451451875675226_rs.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2008, 10:57:09 AM
Yeah, that's much better :)
For optimising, try losing the spikey deformation of the rim above the ears. After some thought, it doesn't really look good anyway. Just make the rim round.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 11, 2008, 12:55:14 PM
It actually wasn't as bad as I thought, because I was doubling the number of verts of the parts that had already been triangulated.

Here's what I've got, at 396 tries. I can add (and I think I will add, just for variation) the ears back. They add some needed...somthing, that is really missing without them. It just looks too plain as it is, like the other helmets.

(http://aycu07.webshots.com/image/44926/2000386992160113909_rs.jpg)


EDIT: Here she blows.

(http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/43659/2003179717871641476_rs.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2008, 01:29:21 PM
it looks really nice. :) thank you. Now we need a cool texture and we have a perfect Rivendell helmet. I just love this community  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 11, 2008, 03:12:52 PM
Looks great! :) I wouldn't mind having the two versions. :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 11, 2008, 03:51:41 PM
So who do I send it to to get textured?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 11, 2008, 03:56:02 PM
So who do I send it to to get textured?

I'll be very busy the whole week, so maybe Merlkir can give it a shot. I probably can't do it before the next weekend...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2008, 03:57:34 PM
yeah, if you do a nice unwrap, I can texture it :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 11, 2008, 04:04:46 PM
I'm afraid I've done all I can do. As in, I can't touch any kind of texturing.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2008, 04:24:28 PM
Maybe you could send it to Brutus, he does nice unwraps :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 11, 2008, 06:40:36 PM
I can unwrap it. Send it over.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 11, 2008, 06:56:07 PM
Right on.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2008, 07:12:09 PM
behold, the renaissance man! :) nice.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Theodore on February 11, 2008, 09:05:24 PM
Wow those last 10 post were really professional, I love seeing things fall into place.

I might be out of line here, but I could really see rows of elven infantry with that Rivendel helmet.
 
But one request, could a variant be made with fixed cheek guards, I just love the look of Corinthian Helmets.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 12, 2008, 03:56:28 AM

But one request, could a variant be made with fixed cheek guards, I just love the look of Corinthian Helmets.

no, I don't think so.
1) I don't want the elves look greek
2) Rivendell's design simply doesn't have the cheekguards and Lorien does.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 12, 2008, 09:40:33 AM
Here be the Lorien Helmet, 578 tris. I can optimize if needed. (I think it looks pretty darn smexy)  ;)


(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6091/newbitmapimage3gw4.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on February 12, 2008, 09:42:58 AM
Now that's a fine looking helmet!

The texturing get 1/10 though :(








(just kidding about the textures)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 12, 2008, 10:08:45 AM
It looks very cool indeed. I wonder if a coif would raise the polycount too much...(elves need either a coif or hair...I think.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 12, 2008, 10:21:56 AM
It looks very cool indeed. I wonder if a coif would raise the polycount too much...(elves need either a coif or hair...I think.)

Yeah, I might be able to chop some polies out of the nose guard and fit it in. If I do add it, it won't be the kind that rests on the shoulder though. (At least I think the other kind would be better. We'll see.)

Here she blows.
(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1372/newbitmapimage3wx2.png)

I could still chop some more polies out if 676 is too many.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 12, 2008, 12:49:55 PM
676 is fine.  I havent uv'd your other helm yet so send this one over whenever you finish and Ill do it as well.   I combined all of the elf helms to a single sheet some time back but 40% of the sheet is still free.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 12, 2008, 01:06:31 PM
Just tweaked the cheek peices so it's now down to 626. I'll send it off.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 12, 2008, 01:14:56 PM
looks sweet :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 12, 2008, 03:29:52 PM
Yeah, it looks promising :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on February 12, 2008, 07:15:16 PM
Nice helms Llew. :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Theodore on February 13, 2008, 03:02:34 AM
no, I don't think so.
1) I don't want the elves look greek
2) Rivendell's design simply doesn't have the cheekguards and Lorien does.

Oh I don't want them to look greek either! :D
I just think the cheek guards need to be a wee bit bigger, right now it looks like if they were gone no one would blink an eye. on Lorien of course.
(no offence) :)

don't kill me!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ori on February 13, 2008, 06:23:30 PM
You need to decide if you want them to be cheekguards and if so adjust them so they actually protect the cheeks.
Maybe pull them inside in some sort of rivendalish water pattren

As it is it looks abit too cute IMO and despite peter jackson's sexual fantasys I think elves are fierce warriors that do taste battle and I think they deserve that look
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 14, 2008, 04:11:50 PM
Welcome to the forum, Ori :)

I agree the cheekguards may look a bit more ornamental than practical/effective.

There's no way we'll have pu**y-looking elves in TLD (unless they're female :green:), our elves are fearsome warriors! ;) At least, that's what we want them to be.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on February 14, 2008, 09:14:14 PM
But the helms look great as they are... please put your sexual prejudices someplace else :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Llew on February 14, 2008, 09:16:18 PM
But the helms look great as they are... please put your sexual prejudices someplace else :)
:lol:

That said, I already sent them off to AW. If he thinks they should be tweaked, then by all means, he should tweak them. I think it will different when the texture is on though. The cheek pieces won't blend it so well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 15, 2008, 03:58:00 AM
Ursca's work for the WH mod :) A bridge might be nice to have for the Osgiliath scene.. (just a hint ;))

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Ursca/Mount%20and%20blade/bridge1.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 15, 2008, 01:37:15 PM
Looks very nice!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on February 18, 2008, 04:25:59 AM
But didn't Boromir cast down the bridges in the last battle before WOTR? :p
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 18, 2008, 05:20:23 AM
we can still break the bridge ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on February 18, 2008, 11:54:49 AM
Its a pretty small bridge for an anduin bridge anyway. But there are always places for bridges, like the interior of Gondor or even the ruined bridge in the sorceror mission. Atm that's just a scaled up native job.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 18, 2008, 02:05:37 PM
The Bridge of Osgiliath was considered the greatest achievement of architecture in Gondorian history, and huge parts of the city were situated on it, including the Dome of Stars itself. Somehow, that little thing just doesn't qualify :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on February 18, 2008, 02:39:13 PM
well, I said...like it. Like that bridge. And I obviously meant the nice style that really reminds me of one painting of John Howe's...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Balduran on February 21, 2008, 02:24:24 PM
Darn, haven't been here for a while (Stupid link isn't near the Taleworlds forum one)

I especially love that archer armor some pages back - sweet!  :D

plate armor plx? xD (Just kidding)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kohlrabi on February 21, 2008, 03:23:43 PM
Rumours regarding Ancientwanker, a swiss bank account, New Line Cinema, a huge bank deposit, and full plate armour in the next patch can be found on the internet...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 22, 2008, 02:01:26 PM
well, I said...like it. Like that bridge. And I obviously meant the nice style that really reminds me of one painting of John Howe's...

I think I know which one you're talking about, but I'm too lazy to look for it.

But you're absolutely right, the style is spot on :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on February 22, 2008, 02:07:01 PM
Rumours regarding Ancientwanker, a swiss bank account, New Line Cinema, a huge bank deposit, and full plate armour in the next patch can be found on the internet...

Lol, you forgot owr new skating elves! :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on February 22, 2008, 05:41:22 PM
Shush, DB, that's a secret feature!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 08, 2008, 07:16:16 AM
Dont step on hobbitz, they has sharp stix!

(http://sweb.cz/synnaskole/Troll%20Slayer.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: War_B*stard on April 08, 2008, 08:02:50 AM
Nice work, how long did it take? I particularly like the fabric, the way in which the loincloth and hobbit's cloak flow looks really good! (I never thought loincloths could look so good :))
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 08, 2008, 08:16:05 AM
about an hour? like that, a part of a math lesson :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Zenosknight on April 08, 2008, 08:34:35 PM
Gondor Infantry got hurted =(
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on April 09, 2008, 11:55:05 AM
That's brütal. And awesome, poor Gondorian guy. Not to mention I pity the foo' hobbit thinkin' he could mess with Groshnai the Deviant.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ollieh on April 09, 2008, 03:33:47 PM
Very nice! Happy to see some activity...  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on April 09, 2008, 11:41:17 PM
it has nothing to do with the mod, but it was tolkien related so I posted it ;) Most of the stuff I draw is classified so you'll have to wait till we do the preview. (I guess.)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Senta on April 10, 2008, 12:26:57 PM
Most of the stuff I draw is classified so you'll have to wait till we do the preview. (I guess.)

damn.  :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: bryce on April 27, 2008, 09:53:22 PM
It looks very cool indeed. I wonder if a coif would raise the polycount too much...(elves need either a coif or hair...I think.)

Yeah, I might be able to chop some polies out of the nose guard and fit it in. If I do add it, it won't be the kind that rests on the shoulder though. (At least I think the other kind would be better. We'll see.)

Here she blows.
(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1372/newbitmapimage3wx2.png)

I could still chop some more polies out if 676 is too many.


It looks good, but you should add polies to the actual dome. It doesn't look round enough and it's only like 70 polies right now.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on April 27, 2008, 10:30:52 PM
It will look rounded enough, with a proper texture.  Most helmets in M&B are no more polies than that on the dome sections - many are fewer.  (The ones in OnR are a LOT fewer on the helmet bowl itself, and they still look round enough even in close-ups... although the face-masks and such add a lot after that.)

Color will cover up a lot of sharp angles that stand out in an un-textured model.

-------------------------

676 is high ... but do some good LOD's for it, and it probably won't hurt.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on April 27, 2008, 10:36:37 PM
it has nothing to do with the mod, but it was tolkien related so I posted it ;) Most of the stuff I draw is classified so you'll have to wait till we do the preview. (I guess.)

Lots of secrets!!!  8)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kess on May 06, 2008, 02:04:55 PM
So... Why aint there any dwarfs? :<<<<<<<<
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on May 06, 2008, 07:02:56 PM
So... Why aint there any dwarfs? :<<<<<<<<

The government didn't allow it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Kess on May 07, 2008, 04:45:29 AM
And for real?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 07, 2008, 04:51:32 AM
And for real?

we have some dwarven gear, but we haven't made any dwarves yet since MaB still doesn't allow us to change skeletons or resize them...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: FleshyStarfish on May 07, 2008, 06:36:36 AM
Melkir,

I had understood that after 0.903 was released, that Aragon had made the skellies changeable...is that incorrect?

FS
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 07, 2008, 08:33:44 AM
I'm quite sure they're not changeable yet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 07, 2008, 01:59:38 PM
Let's hope Armagan makes it happen....
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 12, 2008, 06:54:56 PM
I made this awhile ago, but hated it so never posted it, let alone textured it. It's an Orc helm, with the idea of it being powder black, maybe a little rusty. About the only thing going for it is it's only 256 triangles. If you want it though, go ahead:

(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6272/orchelmvh0.png)

Anyway, sorry for disappearing after doing basically nothing. With the game approaching 1.0 though, I'll hopefully be actually doing something.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on May 12, 2008, 07:26:41 PM
I think that is pretty cool - and original (always a bonus in the overworked fantasy genre).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 12, 2008, 10:24:59 PM
I like this one more, but it is pretty generic, it reminds me too much of the LOTR movies and the Uruk helms. And something on the top/back is still missing, I just don't know what.

280 triangles. How I got only 14 more polygons from my last one I'll never know.

(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3201/orchelmnb7.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on May 13, 2008, 01:54:41 AM
I like the first one better...I'd add some protection to the face though, something over the mouth with breething holes maybe..
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on May 13, 2008, 02:04:51 AM
I think the second one looks cool too. Maybe if it had a row of spikes coming from the front (above the nose) to the back of the head... it would look badass :) and maybe remove the chin part...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 13, 2008, 03:21:46 AM
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2425/orchelm3zt4.png)

Added the air slots as suggested. Not a fan. I'll make it look decent with time, but it's 2 AM so I gave up on it for now.

(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8791/orchelm4nn3.png)

(Ignore the spikes, failed experiment. Sonic the Hedgehog spikes always sound good on paper, but they never turn out that way.)

See, I agree that it looks better without a chin. But there was a reason why I left it on in the beginning: It's been done before (http://www.thak.ca/images/lotr/urukhai_1.jpg). Alot (http://www.newline-shop.com/nlc/lotrrukhaim.jpg). I mean, srsly (http://www.cbswords.com/images/49200.jpg).

At any rate I'll have them finished tomorrow.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on May 13, 2008, 06:27:21 AM
Nice stuff. 

On the technical side, I would loosen fit (though its hard to tell from screen shots how fitted they are).  The game creates random faces and some of the larger noses or wider faces might extend past the close-fitting masks.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on May 13, 2008, 01:38:27 PM
Coon Dawg... that name sounds oddly familiar.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 13, 2008, 01:50:53 PM
Nice stuff, I'd say some is a little hi-tech looking rather than crudely smithed.  Needs smoothing as well but that's easy enough.  If you make any other variants just keep an eye toward the stuff being hammered out or molded rather than machined.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 13, 2008, 03:43:12 PM
My last two variations. After this I'm starting from scratch, most likely something Elvish. Maybe Dwarvish...

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1244/orchelm5bz5.png

I tried to make it more "crude" (as suggested) but I think it just came out Friday the 13th. Meh.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5844/orchelm6fx6.png

At first, the ridge down the center was taller, but it was sooooooo Sparta that I couldn't tolerate it. I like this one more, it seems a little bit less "high tech" (As AW said). Still not all that happy with it though.

Tell me if you want me to texture them.

Also, what else do you still need modeled? Buildings, I hear? I'm not sure what the requirements are on body armor, since it needs to flex and such. And what about trolls? Troll armor? Ents? Oooohhh ents would be fun... Let me know what else you'll need and I'll start on it.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Father Chains on May 13, 2008, 05:14:51 PM
I really, really doubt we'll be in any position to do ents or even consider them until the configurable skeletons are part of the game.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 13, 2008, 08:24:12 PM
I really, really doubt we'll be in any position to do ents or even consider them until the configurable skeletons are part of the game.

Baby ents?

Though I don't know why we can't do at least semi-miniature ones now, considering you already have trolls.

How would ents be done, anyway? They couldn't be harmed by sword or bow, so it'd have to be axes and fire arrows, and we don't have fire arrows.

A discussion for a different topic, I suppose.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 13, 2008, 08:28:08 PM
On the spikes on that previous one - don't make them so complex.  Use simple, triangular spikes, either three-sided or pyramid.  Easier to see at a distance, more menacing ... and lower poly count.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 14, 2008, 03:17:28 AM
I know, I was just experimenting. Doesn't matter though, it got overwritten on accident.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 14, 2008, 04:44:07 AM
If you want to experiment with that, go to a raised ridge with sawtooth pattern along the top.  That's probably the look you were aiming for, without the "oops".

I do like the helmets, by the way.  They look very much like something an orc should wear, in a "hockey mask meets dog muzzle" kind of way.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 14, 2008, 09:26:45 AM
Cool.

If you want to texture the orc helmets put them on the tld orc sheet that the movie-ish helms use. Its a solid sheet of dark bronze in the files.  Don't texture the first one of the last set as I think its too futuristic.

Don't do baby ents, we won't be going there. heh. Dwarf helmets we already have done, so skip those.

I'll try to think of something...
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 14, 2008, 04:18:39 PM
Merlkir posted this image back on page 89: (http://www.idigsheffield.org.uk/images/collection/full/1995_260.jpg)

And I went for it:

(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/243/boarhelmvp7.jpg).

I know the boar is way too small, but before I fixed that I thought I'd better ask this:

The helm is 826 triangles. I figrue that is way too much, but the only way I can reduce that is to get rid of the quarter-ridges (See how it has a strip of what I think is horn running up the front and sides? There's two more between the front and side ones, going at a sloping angle).

Opinions?

And if you decide to use this one, I'll need someone else too texture it. Too much detail for a poor, tabletless guy like me.

@ AW:

Sheet? I'm guessing I could find this in the TLD mod through BRF, however I don't have TLD installed (I have native 9.51installed).

How would I use this "Sheet" anyway? I haven't played around with BRFEdit very much, but I'm guessing to recycle the helm texture it has to be done in BRFedit.

Can I start moddling the Shire, or has that been done already?

How does village modding work, anyway? Poly limits? Size dimensions? Pathing?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 14, 2008, 05:03:53 PM
826 isn't THAT bad - just do a couple of LOD versions.

I just had an idea ... you could do that tuft of hair on the boar (and others like it) using a simple poly and the new mtarini katana shaders from OnR.  The custom shader allows both metal shine and alpha cutouts at the same time.  Metal shader for all the shiny stuff.  Alpha cutouts to make the hair look like hair, not like a block of cloth.  It's kind of tricky to use, but it's no longer experimental - OnR now uses it on all swords with tsuba (Japanese handguards).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on May 14, 2008, 05:08:44 PM
Needs covering in the back of some sort.  No garauntee on hair + helmets yet.  Just the helmet will make the guy look bald.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 14, 2008, 05:25:54 PM
Needs covering in the back of some sort.

? In the back of what?

I guess I'll stick a polygon down his back then, but I'll leave the shader and such to the texturer.

What's LOD stand for, exactly? I can more or less guess what it means, but I can't place the initials.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on May 14, 2008, 05:34:47 PM
Needs covering in the back of some sort.  No garauntee on hair + helmets yet.  Just the helmet will make the guy look bald.

We can do hair with helmets, but there's no way of restricting hairstyles.. so some WILL clip. I mean obviously in real life if a helmet wont fit on your wacky hairstyle, you have to change it..  but we can't do that ingame.

LOD is level of detail.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Brutus on May 15, 2008, 06:12:27 AM
Needs covering in the back of some sort.  No garauntee on hair + helmets yet.  Just the helmet will make the guy look bald.

We can do hair with helmets, but there's no way of restricting hairstyles.. so some WILL clip. I mean obviously in real life if a helmet wont fit on your wacky hairstyle, you have to change it..  but we can't do that ingame.

LOD is level of detail.

Are you sure we can do hair + helmets?  I only heard it was on the to-do list for native.  Haven't seen it though.  But, I guess they didn't change their helmet styles so that would explain that part. :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on May 15, 2008, 06:23:20 AM
Been in native for a while now :P
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 15, 2008, 08:35:21 AM
Been in native for a while now :P

Yeah, you can do it, for sure ... but it's a bit of a disaster, unless you really know how to set it up.  Bad clipping problems - the hair sticking through the helmet - on most hairstyles, unless you very specifically design the headgear around the hair.  Fine for a headband or something, but a problem for most helmets.

If somebody else can get the back of the head covered, and put a decent-looking texture on the rest - I'll take a crack at doing what I was talking about.  I'll add the poly on the critter's back ... it may take several tries to get it looking right.  If it works, it might have potential for crests on several TLD helmets.

But I'm not really a good enough artist to get the rest.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 15, 2008, 08:31:07 PM
EDIT: Nevermind, I fixed my texturing problem and I have zero idea how. It's just working now...

RL, are you saying the back of the neck has to be covered, too? On all helms? I don't understand, is hair removed from characters when they put on helmets or something?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on May 15, 2008, 09:04:08 PM
Been in native for a while now :P

Yeah, you can do it, for sure ... but it's a bit of a disaster, unless you really know how to set it up.  Bad clipping problems - the hair sticking through the helmet - on most hairstyles, unless you very specifically design the headgear around the hair.  Fine for a headband or something, but a problem for most helmets.

If somebody else can get the back of the head covered, and put a decent-looking texture on the rest - I'll take a crack at doing what I was talking about.  I'll add the poly on the critter's back ... it may take several tries to get it looking right.  If it works, it might have potential for crests on several TLD helmets.

But I'm not really a good enough artist to get the rest.


Lossey:

I know. in fact I'm sure I even mentioned the clipping problems a few posts above  ::)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ron Losey on May 15, 2008, 10:52:58 PM
Dain Ironfoot:

Yeah, I know you know it, but these other guys didn't seem to, so I was clarifying it for them.

CoonDawg:

Either the hair has to be removed when the helmet is put on (normal), or the helmet has to be made in a way that hair sticking through it will either look normal (i.e. a headband), or such that the helmet is big enough that hair won't stick through it (which would be funny-looking in most cases).
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 16, 2008, 02:20:01 PM
'Aight, useful information.

BTW, does the engine use backface culling (are the backs of polygons see-through)? I haven't actually played with the mods much and wasn't sure what to do with the underside of the helmet.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on May 16, 2008, 02:43:06 PM
No, you'll need to delete the relevant polygons yourself.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: CoonDawg on May 16, 2008, 03:30:22 PM
Delete? No, that's not what I meant. Nevermind, I'll just load it into M&B and that should answer all my questions :)

What are we going to do about Minas Tirith and Helm's Deep? Are we going to model them into castles?

I'll need some concept art for that though, I don't know where my LOTR books went so I can't read the description, which leaves me with TTT movie Helm's Deep, and I know a certain couple people who would throw a fit (Anyone here remember a guy named Aryndil? He's the one who suggested this game to me, and he'd wring my neck over such a thing) using the movie as reference.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on May 16, 2008, 07:18:22 PM
We have a movieish HD in atm so ha. And there's only so many ways you can do MT
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Ancientwanker on May 16, 2008, 09:32:00 PM
If you want to take a look at the background meshes in the latest version you might think about doing a background mesh that will fit next to the extisting MT outer wall to give a seamless, curve to the horizon look.

Just an idea. 
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Trying2ShowReason on October 31, 2008, 03:39:55 PM
Hi guys ... i want to help in anything to the mod , especially texturing , ( i'd love to model but idont know how to) , some of the items created to this awesome mod and its conversion to 1.x.  i usyally mess around with native textures and try my own luck with them.. i'll post a couple of images of a retexture i did and you guys can decide if i am of good use or just can keep the help for myself  :-[ here u go i hope i can be useful 

Royal Plate Armor  and Shield for Native
(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/5516/royalplatearmorrk3.th.jpg) (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=royalplatearmorrk3.jpg)(http://img258.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)


http://(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8968/mb5cs4.th.jpg) (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mb5cs4.jpg)(http://img510.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/7342/mb6gz8.th.jpg) (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mb6gz8.jpg)

it needs a little polishing some edges but... i kinda rushed it out

Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Taal on October 31, 2008, 11:00:43 PM
I propose a list of things, and corresponding concept art or detailed description, that people who wish to contribute can pick from. This list needant have spoiler content just the usual filler models needed for the game. Other more important models can be on a per PM basis. This list would just make it easier for those wishing to contribute to do so with as little mucking around as possible.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on November 01, 2008, 12:57:45 AM
that's not a bad idea. Actually, when we do the preview, I'll probably post all the concept art I've done and kept hidden in the dev forums :D
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Nim Feabeleg on March 09, 2009, 08:43:22 PM
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2425/orchelm3zt4.png)

Added the air slots as suggested. Not a fan. I'll make it look decent with time, but it's 2 AM so I gave up on it for now.

(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8791/orchelm4nn3.png)

(Ignore the spikes, failed experiment. Sonic the Hedgehog spikes always sound good on paper, but they never turn out that way.)

See, I agree that it looks better without a chin. But there was a reason why I left it on in the beginning: It's been done before (http://www.thak.ca/images/lotr/urukhai_1.jpg). Alot (http://www.newline-shop.com/nlc/lotrrukhaim.jpg). I mean, srsly (http://www.cbswords.com/images/49200.jpg).

At any rate I'll have them finished tomorrow.

I think it would be very original if you removed those sonic spikes and put some long solid ones that started from the nose to the back, like half circle. I would imagine an uruk headbutting with those.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: shalictar on December 29, 2009, 03:43:00 PM
Here's some art I drew up and posted on the TW forum page.
(http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv220/shalictar/gondorian_final-1.png)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Merlkir on December 29, 2009, 03:57:03 PM
That's quite nice. :) You got the towerguard's likeness very well.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: pagan on December 29, 2009, 04:03:54 PM
HAH Very Cool work! Dramatic.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: shalictar on December 29, 2009, 04:13:59 PM
Thanks, It was good practice. I think ill be doing some more TLD art.  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: DaBlade on December 30, 2009, 12:52:29 PM
That's pretty coll, shalictar ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: MooreyMoose on December 31, 2009, 08:33:31 AM
Great sketches
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Faradon on January 06, 2010, 02:30:50 PM
I´m not a great concept artist...but I made it for fun and I think the result isn´t thaaat bad
(Let´s call it Fanart..although I´m in the team :) )
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1363/rauro2s.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Tautalos on January 07, 2010, 08:37:44 AM
It's great.
Try doing the argonath the same way.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Crackman on January 07, 2010, 07:56:26 PM
Guys Im sorry but Im new here so, I just want to know when will be the English version finished and if its going on version 1.011! Im a big fan from LOTR and i want this mod, so... Thx!
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on January 07, 2010, 09:08:55 PM
IIRC the mod is being made in English, so that shouldn't be a problem. There is no current release date. The folks here are taking their time to make sure they have a quality product before they send it to the masses.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on January 08, 2010, 06:32:55 AM
Guys Im sorry but Im new here so, I just want to know when will be the English version finished and if its going on version 1.011! Im a big fan from LOTR and i want this mod, so... Thx!

Well, if you WANT it, then we'll just have to have it ready for you by Monday...mmmkay?
But as we're all from Molvania, it will only be available in Molvanian language...mmmkay?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Nameless One on January 08, 2010, 06:49:16 AM
Really? I'm from Molvania as well! It's raining here so badly that I can't work at all. How do you guys plan to have anything at all finished by Monday?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on January 08, 2010, 07:32:03 AM
Well...I didn't say which Monday, did I?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Crackman on January 08, 2010, 07:48:01 AM
IIRC the mod is being made in English, so that shouldn't be a problem. There is no current release date. The folks here are taking their time to make sure they have a quality product before they send it to the masses.

And when will be the release day?

And will it go on v.1.011?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Crackman on January 08, 2010, 07:49:59 AM
Guys Im sorry but Im new here so, I just want to know when will be the English version finished and if its going on version 1.011! Im a big fan from LOTR and i want this mod, so... Thx!

Well, if you WANT it, then we'll just have to have it ready for you by Monday...mmmkay?
But as we're all from Molvania, it will only be available in Molvanian language...mmmkay?

What you mean you will have it ready by monday?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on January 08, 2010, 08:08:32 AM
What you mean you will have it ready by monday?

What do you mean what do I mean we will have it ready by Monday?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: octoburn on January 08, 2010, 03:23:23 PM
What do YOU mean, What does he mean what do you mean we will have it ready by Monday?
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Triglav on January 08, 2010, 03:40:18 PM
What do YOU mean, What does he mean what do you mean we will have it ready by Monday?


Well HE said it, didn't he?
I mean, what do I mean, that is...
I just said we'll have it ready by Monday. Which is absolutely true. Maybe even before Monday.
So what I mean is there's no need for him to ask what do I mean when it's blatantly obvious he got a very precise answer.
To mean anything else would be just mean.
And we're anything but mean.
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Boosh on January 08, 2010, 05:29:54 PM
So we're settled. It's Thursday then.  ::)
Title: Re: TLD: Concept Art
Post by: Crackman on January 10, 2010, 06:31:37 AM