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Mount&Blade Expansion => The Last Days => TLD.808 => Topic started by: Ancientwanker on January 17, 2007, 07:52:16 AM

Title: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on January 17, 2007, 07:52:16 AM
You are certainly welcome to post any and all suggestions here, and they will at least be read by the team. But don't count on your ideas getting in; we already have a very large agenda for the mod.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Gil-Galad on January 17, 2007, 11:55:40 AM
Sorry to bother you again with this but im wondernig will you be able to play as an elf in the next ver.?
if not i would suggest it!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Danneskjold on January 20, 2007, 06:42:26 PM
Simple suggestion:  I'd like to see elvish war horses be about twice as common as they are now.  In the two games I've played, I've only seen 2 (both in the first).  Rare is good, but not to the point where they are never there.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on January 20, 2007, 08:52:00 PM
@ Gil-Galad:

Yes, I think AW is working on it.

@ Danneskjold:

I think it's possible to do, but AW can give you a better answer.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: BrightOwl on January 23, 2007, 06:54:04 PM
This is a small nitpick, but I'd like to see Glorfindel in Rivendell attire rather than Lorien.

IIRC, he'd lived in Rivendell throughout the Third Age.

Congrats on an excellent mod, btw.  That was really my only gripe about it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 30, 2007, 04:47:15 AM
This is an excellent mod.  Even not having read Tolkien's work in years, I find it very addictive.

I would like to know if anyone on the TLD project would be interested in reworking damage models.  I have been working with the Onin-No-Ran mod, where the prototype of my reworked damage scale should now be available (although I have not seen it, due to technical difficulties involving a huge earthquake and the Internet being screwed up all over Asia).  Triglav has seen my work (I know he has done textures for this project), and will confirm that it adds both playability and atmosphere.  Of course, it's not finished either - but I'm sure I could do both, because right now I have plenty of time on my hands.

In a word, the game (M&B in general) suffers from weapon inflation - not as bad as many games, but still there.  For those who missed that, it is the pattern where games over-estimate the damage a human can take.  The result is that everybody ends up carrying an axe as big as a stop sign.  Then, to make it playable, the axe has to move fast enough to keep the action going - so speed gets screwed up too.  Now, Tolkien's characters did not generally carry huge axes.  (Well, the dwarves did - but they were funny that way.)  His characters seemed to realize that something as small as a single arrow wound could kill you.  When the game misses that, it somewhat reduces the feel as a result - the value of armor is off-balanced, and the smaller weapons come off looking painfully inadequate.

Anyway, if the TLD project would be interested in such a rework, I'm offering to help.

Ron Losey

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Triglav on January 30, 2007, 05:32:36 AM
I can agree that the stat rebalancing Ron did for Onin no ran made it much more enjoyable for me personally.

In a nutshell: any contact with the business side of a weapon is quite deadly.
Even lowest tier units can kick your ass with three good hits (doesn't take a super-sword to kill you, three good whacks to the forhead with a broom-handle will doo the trick just the same). One, max two arrows will get you too...no more human porcupines.
On the other hand, the value and price of armour is increased (hit a guy in a shirt with a broom-handle and he'll hurt, hit a guy in footbal-gear and he'll laugh at you).
Tactically this makes you avoid getting hit more, while helping you take out enemies with single blows if good contact is made.

Battles are shorter and fiercer this way, and in game you struggle more to get better armour, overall, it increased the gameplay fun for me. I recommend.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on January 30, 2007, 10:12:27 AM
Im still taking a break but I think balance issues are one of the thorniest things to work on.  I wouldnt mind trying an alternate version with different weapons stats and balances but I dont think I would do it with the main download.  Having two versions would be a bit of a pain in the ass to maintain though, shame the editor is KIA.

I guess my answer is: I dont know but it sounds like a pain. What kind of changes are you talking about? 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 30, 2007, 04:29:53 PM
A basic rescale, really.  Changes to make weapon damage more in line with common sense.  (I don't know too many guys who can keep fighting with an arrow in the chest, do you?)

To give an estimate, say base cut damage on longswords was about 60.  Moderately heavy armor would return values of 60 to 80.  Arrow damage range of 30 to 50, but cut accuracy on bows.  (That is the problem with bows, after all - arrows are very deadly, but they're a pain to hit anything.)  It re-balances the overly powerful archer problem, among other things - by bringing other weapons up to spec.  (Archers aren't so powerful if you can ride by and cut off their heads.  Archers that take a greatsword hit and still perforate you before you can turn around - they're a little off.)  It also fixes the absurd scenes where a guy without even a shirt takes six arrows to the chest and keeps coming.  Even moderate levels of armor become extremely valuable - a bit of realism, as it really is hard to hack through 30 pounds of iron.  That makes "better" units actually better.  (Where now the difference between really good armor and fair armor is just a couple of points - neither realistic nor a lot of motivation to wear heavy armor.)

You WOULD be able to see it, but for technical reasons, they haven't got the changes in the latest version of Onin-No-Ran yet.  (Dammit.)  Back to the UE being kaput.  You'll have to trust Triglav and myself, at least until you see it.  Everybody on the ONR team agreed that these were an improvement, from the standpoint of both real/historical physics and game balance.

The good news is that the changes can be made using only the item_kinds1.txt file.  Reprogramming requires some work, but testing just requires one file be backed up and substituted.

Anyway, with permission, I'll try.  I think Triglav will help me, if he has the time.  (I'm really not a programmer, nor do I claim to be.  I'm actually a Western Civ. teacher.)  It would be a pain to convert, yes.  Once done, the results are very impressive.

Ron


Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Triglav on January 30, 2007, 05:19:54 PM
Well, I don't really have time recently to do any serious modding, and even when I did, I didn't know the first thing on editing the game stats...I am a model & texture guy really.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on January 30, 2007, 05:43:58 PM
Well, I don't really have time recently to do any serious modding, and even when I did, I didn't know the first thing on editing the game stats...I am a model & texture guy really.

OK, then I guess what I need is the help of somebody who can read Python, and has a few hours to type in new stats.  Shouldn't take too long for the first round.  (I did the hard part of calculating and testing with the older version of Onin-no-Ran.  I can put them in ballpark in a few minutes.)  Then, of course, it will require a few tweaks along the way ... after it has been play-tested.  (That goes without saying.)

This really is worth the effort.  I was rather disappointed with M&B in general, until I started doing this - and I got a damage model so realistic that you could virtually feel the fear.  It was originally an attempt at historical realism, but the playability issues more than paid for the trouble.

Ron
-----------------------------------------------------


Edit:  tell you what... e-mail me the Python source.  (Ronlosey@hotmail.com)  I'm no programmer, but I can likely change statistics without screwing up the code too badly.  I'll punch in the new numbers, test them, and mail them back.  More specific tweaks may require some help, but that's later.  Anyway, that lets everybody see for themselves, without requiring a commitment until after you've seen results.


**If I get spam for posting my e-mail address, I swear I will hunt someone down and gut them.**

Ron
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Pellidon on January 30, 2007, 07:14:36 PM
i've got a simple suggestion: would it be possible to have an uruk-hai helm that fits the head better? they look like they can't even see out of the eye holes. it just looks wrong to me, i guess there are more important things to do, but that was just a thought i had.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Damien on February 01, 2007, 05:52:35 AM

Ron: If you're talking about a change that only needs to be done in the Items_Kinds file, you don't even need to be able to read Python, I don't think. I altered the values on the weapons originally, using only the text file and the knowledge of which numbers mean what. If you know the weapons beforehand -- it's pretty self-explanatory. For instance, there will be one value on the bastard sword that reads 102, and another that reads 115. The former is the speed, the latter is the length. Then the "30" in the line is the cut damage, and the "22" (just for instance) would be the thrust damage.

'Course, if this setup has been altered at all in the latest version -- then nevermind.

But your fix sounds interesting. Although I worry for the Player when combat becomes more deadly. Dying and losing your mithril hauberk and that un-chipped, un-rusty sword you finally found is a pain in the ass.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 01, 2007, 06:38:05 AM
The text file offsets are an absolute disaster to read.  I've tried.  It would take 10 years to make substantial changes.  Even if you did, you would still need the Python source for the next version.


I sent AW a personal message asking for the Python files, but I don't have them yet.  With the files, I think I can work through the Python enough to make this work.  Or, I could just explain the scale and let someone else do the typing.  (The team over at the "Holy War" mod plans to use my model, but they're going to punch it in, and all I have to do is review and test.  Makes work for them, but a lot fewer bugs that way.)  If you like Python code, I'll send you a complete explanation of the scale, and you can impose it on any mod you like and have the source code for.

Combat is not "more deadly" as such.  For the player, who will probably have better armor than the rank-and-file troops, it would actually be less deadly at one-to-one odds.  It just requires some tactics.  Combat is quicker - you don't have to beat on an unarmored man with a huge sword to kill him.  A quick swipe with a good machete will do it.  In contrast, higher armor values mean that insignificant weapons (sticks and stones) are less likely to damage armored men.

For example, on a test fight I did in ONR, I took on a number of guys (all with huge swords, but only a couple had substantial armor).  First stroke, I cut one of them down.  A quick sidestep, and I cut another one down.  Third swing got a third one, but at the same time one got me.  Not "more deadly" - just fewer total strokes.  In another test, I knocked down a couple of unarmored guys with three or four shruiken each, but the one with armor took several hits with little or no damage.  I also got a lot of horses cut out from under me ... Japan didn't armor horses.  Gives infantry a bit more chance against light cav (but subsequently makes armored horse all the more imposing).  It balances very realistically.  Stops the "I can take three hits from an axe because I have hit points" mentality.

Chances are, if you had a mithril hauberk, it's highly unlikely that anything smaller than a cave troll could put you out of the fight ... assuming you didn't just stand there and let 12 orcs beat on you.  Well, also assuming that, with this hauberk, your head armor was not a baseball cap.  "Duh ... my chest armor could stop a ..." THOCK *gets hit in head with a rock*

Anyway, if anybody wants the details for the system, send me a PM and I'll explain them as best I can.  (Be sure to tell me what you want them for - I may need to tailor the response for certain situations.)

And if anybody has the Python source for TLD, please send them to me ... or else offer to write up the changes for me.  Once written, all we have to do is redistribute the item_kinds1.txt file to let people test it.  If it's a hit (which I'm pretty sure it will be - it's been the life of the party everywhere else that has seen or heard of it), and once tweaked, we send the Python source for the next mod version.  (If the vote is against it, nothing is lost.)

Ron
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 01, 2007, 11:01:54 PM
I still haven't heard back on the weapons model tests, but on an unrelated note:

The "Holy War" mod has something everybody needs.  Imitation motion blur on arrows.

The trick was simple - the graphic for an arrow in flight was replaced by one twice as long as normal.

The first time one of these comes by you, you'll dodge and fall out of your chair.  Especially if you've ever seen a real arrow come past you.  The trick helps even more if your frame-rate is a little low.

Check it out.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on February 02, 2007, 03:36:35 AM
Ron: the version of HW I am playing has normal sized arrows flying. Those blured arrows have only been suggested imho. The ones that are in are great imo.

AW: those arrows are a good thing, not hard to do I think and it looks great. Also the soundpack from Eisenhouwer Holy War uses has some great sounds in it...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 02, 2007, 03:46:44 AM
Maybe it's just the frame rate on certain mods, but I was pretty sure the arrows had been modified the first time I saw them.  I looked around and found the trick later.

Of course, the background and lighting could have something to do with it.  Arrows screaming across open dessert are easy to see.  Arrows in the forest just come out of the trees from somewhere.

The wild sound effects in "Holy War" are interesting too, but they strike me as being overdone.  Maybe the volume is just unbalanced, or maybe the stereo sound wasn't quite right - but I like the smooth sound transitions in TLD a lot better.


-----------------------------------------

Still waiting on either Python code or offers of help for the weapons model.
Ron

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on February 02, 2007, 04:09:16 AM
I like that you aren't really able to see the arrows until very last moment...it's very similar to my experience from RL when I've been shot at. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 02, 2007, 04:34:40 AM
I like that you aren't really able to see the arrows until very last moment...it's very similar to my experience from RL when I've been shot at. ;)

With arrows?  Because I've stood down-range for some archery practice (mostly under cover, than God - I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid), just to watch and listen.  We were deer hunting, and we were trying to get a perspective on what the deer could see and hear, trying to reverse-engineer how they were so effective at evading arrow fire.  The arrows I saw fired at or past me were not at all like a passing bullet.  They gave more the impression of impending doom like when you look up and see headlights of an oncoming car headed straight for you.  They seemed to approach for two days - and mathematically, I know the flight time was way under 0.1 second.  You can hear them coming, complete with massive Doppler shift as they pass - it's wild.  It also explained how the deer were jumping arrows - if I was on my toes, I could have made myself a pretty hard target too.

Had a few bullets pass me too - under less controlled conditions, I must say.  Rifle fire really does pass you before you hear it.  Those were some of my many experiences that I don't care to repeat.

But enough of everybody's old war stories.

Fake motion blur is still a good trick for computer games.

Back to my earlier question ... who wants to help me implement/test a combat realism model?  The model is done.  It just has to be ported to TLD and tested for playability/public opinion.

Ron
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: InvertedPantsMan on February 02, 2007, 05:47:15 PM
Dude however much I like wargames, firsthand stories of the real thing chill me to the bone.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 02, 2007, 06:55:26 PM
Dude however much I like wargames, firsthand stories of the real thing chill me to the bone.

That's because you're smart.  Sane people don't get into knife or gun fights if they can avoid it, for a good reason.  The ones that can't avoid it usually try not to let it happen again.


One of the reasons I try to get more realism into these games is related to this.  If more people realized how fast a real conflict happens, they would be more cautious in real dangerous situations too.  Games where your character can take 6 hits in the chest with a hatchet cause people to forget, and then when some fool pulls a knife on them and demands their wallet, they're like "It's only a little knife" ... and they get killed.  Truth hurts.


But again ... this is a game suggestions thread.  Let's try to keep it that way.  Especially since many of us who have seen this sort of thing for real would rather not talk about it for longer than a passing reference.

------------------------------

On the game issue, I have at least one volunteer willing to help me code those changes and test them ... but I still need the Python source.

Ron
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Damien on February 02, 2007, 11:50:43 PM

Well, I still have M&B version .7xx saved on my computer with TLD on it -- so I can help you test it out, if you like.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 03, 2007, 12:03:51 AM

Well, I still have M&B version .7xx saved on my computer with TLD on it -- so I can help you test it out, if you like.



Send me an e-mail address where I can mail you the files when we get them.

Whenever I get the Python files, that is...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 06, 2007, 12:33:30 AM
Hey, has anybody seen or heard from AW in a few days?  I sent him a couple of personal messages, but I haven't heard anything back.

We're about ready to wrap that damage model I described for ONR ... and I have a couple of volunteers standing by to help me with converting TLD.  I can start running tests to see if it's playable (and/or popular) just as soon as I have the Python files.  As far as I know, AW is the only one with them... and I can't seem to get hold of him.  ("Holy War" is also planning a conversion to this system, but I'm only testing for it, and they're not ready yet.)

(This model is looking pretty good on ONR.  Can't wait to get it into the next release over there.)

Ron
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Grocat on February 06, 2007, 02:18:40 AM
Honestly, it sounds to me like he'd rather not deal with the whole power rebalancing system.  It gets a lot more complicated then just the numbers and damage when specific factions are built around certain combinations of gear and skills, as they are in this mod, meaning that currently balanced factions will become lopsided.  Gear will have to be completely redistributed and re-evaluated with extensive testing.  It's really hard to judge how that could affect the overall war.  Also, he might be more open to the idea once there is a current release of it that is approved of by the community in a mainstream production like Onin No Ran.

Or he could just be too tired to bother with the forums right now.  Just throwing this out there as a possibility.  I mean, if it works, why fix it?

By the way, your idea does sound really neat.  I'll be excited to see it implemented in ONR.

-Grocat
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 06, 2007, 02:51:01 AM

Well, certain factions are built around gear and skill - but a total rescale doesn't throw that off.  It just ups the risk factor from getting hit.  By lowering speed on the really heavy anti-armor weapons, it still balances out.

There are gameplay issues already.  Archers are too effective because neither armor nor blades get the desired results.  That's why there's a huge dialog at the beginning so everybody can try to tweak these bugs out of it ... but it's still not right, just adjusted.  The real issue with archers is that armor is not effective, at least not to realistic levels.  When you add that plus the idea that hit points will absorb blows from some pretty heavy blades even without armor, it skews the numbers pretty badly.  There's been a lot of discussion on this ... somebody said that a single player could wipe out the entire Great Host of Mordor.  That can't be right.

Anyway, I've got a couple of people willing to help me test it... and I'm volunteering to make the changes, so it's a zero-cost proposition.  If the vote is that nobody likes the new model, then the only time lost is mine.

This model should be up on ONR pretty soon... the next release, whenever that is.  I think Fujiwara has a couple of unrelated bugs he wants to squash before the next version.  He, Triglav, and myself have been on this for the last three days, plus a little help from Raz over at the Holy War mod (who is trying to implement a version of this model there) - and we're just about to get it debugged.  (Good thing, so I can get some sleep.)  It's pretty cool ... I can't wait to see the reaction when it's released.

That's why I figure it's time to line up the next project, i.e. try to get the Python files for TLD, so I can start playing with it as soon as we wrap the ONR release.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Pope on February 06, 2007, 08:21:14 PM
High damage games are usually more exciting than low damage ones, so the gameplay over realism argument is misplaced. The only time you'd want a bit more health is to make single combat last longer, and there's not much of that in TLD.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 06, 2007, 08:31:28 PM
High damage games are usually more exciting than low damage ones, so the gameplay over realism argument is misplaced. The only time you'd want a bit more health is to make single combat last longer, and there's not much of that in TLD.

Yeah, and single combat is normally done with your best equipment - which means heavy armor.  Heavy armor means either that the combat lasts longer again, or the fight has to be done with very heavy, and therefore slow, weapons.

Single combat can also last a long time if it involves a lot of running around and not much swinging.  Since running is usually your first reaction when out-classed, this can happen too.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merentha on February 07, 2007, 11:57:37 AM
If I may ask, what are you planning to do with the obviously unearthly items, like dragonscale, mithril, the blade of westernesse, or other armory items?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 07, 2007, 06:21:00 PM
If I may ask, what are you planning to do with the obviously unearthly items, like dragonscale, mithril, the blade of westernesse, or other armory items?

This is just a rescale.  If a "magic" item is about 20% better than its conventional counterpart, then just factor that in ...

Actually, my Tolkien is a little weak, but I think Mithril was supposed to be REALLY tough.  May have to tweak that a bit to get the feel.

That's the easy part.  The hard part is getting my hands on the files, because apparently AW has been out of town or something.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 10, 2007, 06:57:04 PM
Everyone - If you want to see what I just proposed with a combat realism model ...

Onin-no-Ran has now been released with a working version of this model.  It may still need a few tweaks, but you can see it in action. 

Of course, this still depends on me actually seeing the source code - and AW is apparently still away from the computer, so the question is moot until then.

Ron
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on February 11, 2007, 04:20:54 AM
I'll play the new HW which has that model too and then report my feelings about it :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 11, 2007, 04:26:12 AM
I'll play the new HW which has that model too and then report my feelings about it :)

Yeah, I'm supposed to be beta testing that, but I can't get the beta to download.  Raz did a copy of my model from general guidelines I sent him - I haven't actually got my hands on it yet.

There's still a couple of bugs in the ONR model too - things that, ironically, got added between the time I last saw it and the time it was released.  Can't win around here.

You'll like the new damage model.  Everybody does.
Ron
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merentha on February 11, 2007, 04:37:43 AM
I don't know, I'm fairly attached to the Last Days' gameplay as it is...We'll see.   ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 11, 2007, 04:48:29 AM
I don't know, I'm fairly attached to the Last Days' gameplay as it is...We'll see.   ;)

The test doesn't cost anything.  Most people think it's an improvement.

Most of the great achievements in gameplay for TLD have been on the big map - the overall war and faction standings.  This won't change that a bit.  It will, however, balance out many of those little bugs with archers and troop strengths that now have to be tweaked on the opening menu, and still don't feel quite right.

However, it's not going to happen until I get my hands on the Python source code.  Has anybody heard from AW in a week?  Does anybody else have a copy of the source code for this thing?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Grocat on February 11, 2007, 02:59:51 PM
I don't think there are problems that have to be tweaked on the menu.  I think the menu is for people who would prefer greater or lesser difficulty.

-Grocat
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: ME3 on February 19, 2007, 07:08:05 PM
I think a really awesome change would be something along the lines of more control over your troops. some basic formations would be nice, and maybe some basic stances. Aggressive, defensive, that sort of thing. However, I was thinking that maybe this would only be available to Isengard and the Free Peoples, and the other races would have larger forces.

If you think about it, it would a. provide some contrast between the races and b. change the factions to stick with their sterotpyes javascript:void(0);

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Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on February 20, 2007, 01:50:41 AM
sadly none of those are possible.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: xXempXx on February 20, 2007, 07:28:40 PM
sadly none of those are possible.

definitely the absolute worst part of this game...

i hope they are eventually included in the final product
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Jairion on February 22, 2007, 09:10:29 AM
At least I would be happy to see some fortresses added to the game, and by controlling one would contribute somehow to the war (ex. morale). If one was to be captured by an enemy, there would be a sign "---- captured by the enemy!" and some other effects. I mean something like Weathertop, it was a watchtower, right? Though I don't want something to the game that is not in the book, that is your policy, right?
 Whatever, that came into my mind.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: octoburn on February 22, 2007, 07:28:55 PM
At least I would be happy to see some fortresses added to the game, and by controlling one would contribute somehow to the war (ex. morale). If one was to be captured by an enemy, there would be a sign "---- captured by the enemy!" and some other effects. I mean something like Weathertop, it was a watchtower, right? Though I don't want something to the game that is not in the book, that is your policy, right?
 Whatever, that came into my mind.
Weathertop wouldn't really calssify as a "fortress" at the point of the War of the Ring, as it's basically ruins...

but, there is a certain new "town" in the latest Dev version that I think could end up being "capturable." think: Anduin.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on February 23, 2007, 05:43:15 PM
I don't know, I'm fairly attached to the Last Days' gameplay as it is...We'll see.   ;)

Me too.  Every mod I have played where they make dramatic changes to the items ruins the gameplay.  The mod is difficult enough as it stands....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Albino on February 23, 2007, 09:24:43 PM
At least I would be happy to see some fortresses added to the game, and by controlling one would contribute somehow to the war (ex. morale). If one was to be captured by an enemy, there would be a sign "---- captured by the enemy!" and some other effects. I mean something like Weathertop, it was a watchtower, right? Though I don't want something to the game that is not in the book, that is your policy, right?
 Whatever, that came into my mind.
Weathertop wouldn't really calssify as a "fortress" at the point of the War of the Ring, as it's basically ruins...

but, there is a certain new "town" in the latest Dev version that I think could end up being "capturable." think: Anduin.


Cair Andros? Osgiliath?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 23, 2007, 09:35:55 PM
I don't know, I'm fairly attached to the Last Days' gameplay as it is...We'll see.   ;)

Me too.  Every mod I have played where they make dramatic changes to the items ruins the gameplay.  The mod is difficult enough as it stands....

Have you seen the RCM in play?  It's out on Onin-no-Ran, and there's a retrofit to native (for testing/demo purposes - not balanced for long-term play).  (It's in beta for Holy War and Mesoamerica, but not public yet.  Couple of others are considering it - looks like this is about to be the new standard.)  Check it out - the vote so far is pretty unanimous that game play is improved.

I wouldn't suggest it for TLD if I didn't think it would improve the overall experience.  When I first developed the thing for ONR, I never figured it would go anywhere - but the results have just been phenomenal.

Of course, this being moot ... we would just do a test version and take a vote, if AW would check his mail more than once a week - but I'm rather waiting on him to get back to me at the moment.    He already said a test version was a good idea, but there were some questions about the source code getting out, and then he hasn't responded to his mail for a week ... but I figure he'll be back eventually.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Jon Snow on February 24, 2007, 12:19:02 AM
Ron, I have to say that the only experience I have of RCM so far is that everyone dies the first time I hit them, and I survive for some time while being beaten by fairly low level enemies if I'm dehorsed. It seems to have made the whole game far too easy for higher-level or better-equipped characters. I'm going to start a new character and try it right from the beginning for a while now, though. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 24, 2007, 12:58:08 AM
Ron, I have to say that the only experience I have of RCM so far is that everyone dies the first time I hit them, and I survive for some time while being beaten by fairly low level enemies if I'm dehorsed. It seems to have made the whole game far too easy for higher-level or better-equipped characters. I'm going to start a new character and try it right from the beginning for a while now, though. :)

On the RCM, heavy armor is actually worth something.  Also, weapons intended to penetrate armor, and/or very high damage weapons are usually slower than their smaller counterparts.  This puts some tactics back into the game - most weapons are good for something (faster, more damage, better against armor, something), while no weapon is perfect for everything.  This is really why such a variety of weapons were historically developed. 

It should be easy to take out fools dressed in rags and armed with sticks - that's why few ancient armies used rag armor or sticks... they wore metal armor, and carried spears, swords, and axes, and for a good reason.  For game purposes, this means beating up beggars can get a little boring ... nor is it too profitable.  It's not easy for high-end characters, if they fight other high-end troops - and likewise, if you jump on somebody who is out of your league, you will feel it too.

I actually found that the higher-end characters had less advantage than in vanilla ... it is no longer necessary to have several levels of power strike just to make an attack marginally effective, unless you're just attacking against armor with a weapon that is too light for the job.  Likewise, the value of a few hit points (like the ironskin perk) are greatly reduced.

There is the game balance issue where very poorly equipped characters are at a severe disadvantage against heavy armor.  This is an issue that has to be worked out in the troops file, or the larger party organization ... which I did not do in the retrofit to native (as it was a demonstration, not intended as a complete form of entertainment).  ONR has some of that, but it  was to deliberately create a dichotomy between samurai and peasants, as a historical element of the culture.  The beta of Mesoamerica also deliberately created a one-sided equipment situation - the Spanish have a huge advantage in technology, and the Aztecs end up trying to beat this with larger numbers.  The beta of Holy War, on the other hand, was relatively well balanced in that respect.  TLD would not really have that issue, as the sides are not particularly unbalanced in equipment or armor.  Those orc axes would be dangerous to even the highest-level Riders of Rohan... more so, really, because a few hit points would not protect them like it does in the vanilla-based model.

Still, we'll test it on TLD if and when AW gets back to me.  Then we'll find out if it balances.  (With all the complaints of archers being too powerful, and high end characters whipping huge axes around like they're toys and being able to take 10 or 12 sword hits even without armor, it's not like the current one balances really great either.)

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Jon Snow on February 24, 2007, 02:04:57 AM
I've played a little more, and I'm definitely seeing the difference. You definitely can't just wade into battle with a low-level character and expect to win, even if it's just by picking off stragglers. Definitely eases the frustration of dealing with angry beggar-style enemies by spending ages raining blows down upon them seemingly to no effect. I'm glad also that it's possible for level 1 characters to inflict a fatal injury first time when you're on horseback and up to a decent speed. The other benefit is that Borcha and Marnid actually level up at a decent rate, because they kill more enemies. I'll try some more on a higher-level character aswell, but I'm all out of dark hunters at the moment, so I've not fought many higher-level enemies at all. I'm sure some more'll turn up shortly. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 24, 2007, 02:20:40 AM
I've played a little more, and I'm definitely seeing the difference. You definitely can't just wade into battle with a low-level character and expect to win, even if it's just by picking off stragglers. Definitely eases the frustration of dealing with angry beggar-style enemies by spending ages raining blows down upon them seemingly to no effect. I'm glad also that it's possible for level 1 characters to inflict a fatal injury first time when you're on horseback and up to a decent speed. The other benefit is that Borcha and Marnid actually level up at a decent rate, because they kill more enemies. I'll try some more on a higher-level character aswell, but I'm all out of dark hunters at the moment, so I've not fought many higher-level enemies at all. I'm sure some more'll turn up shortly. ;)

So you see why I want to run a test of it on TLD... and why most of the rest of the major mods are converting to it as well.  It does make a difference.

For a better test, check out Onin-no-Ran ... it's balanced a little better for the model, despite the deliberate gap between peasants and samurai.  Again, the retrofit to native was just a demo, and I was planning to be a little more careful with TLD.

If AW would check his mail, that is...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Jon Snow on February 24, 2007, 02:35:04 AM
Quote
If AW would check his mail, that is...
I think AW's on a break at the moment. God knows he deserves one after creating the M&B institute that is TLD.
 But lo and behold, as soon as I sent you that last post, 32 dark hunters crossed the horizon on my high-level character's save. Good God! Best battle I've had in ages, I'll have to write Dark Hunters instead of dark hunters, they're actually intimidating again. They only killed four of my troops during the battle, but every other bugger was unconscious within a minute or two. I could actually kill them only by dehorsing them first (that's the last time I'm going to have an inventory of sword, greatsword and dagger ::)). Dark Hunters dropped like flies, though, as you mentioned, due to the fact that they wear leather armour, where Dark Knights lived up to their fearsome reputation. The Dark Hunters ought to be wearing mail hauberks, really. First time in ages that:
 a) I've felt like reach actually mattered
 b) I've almost had a heart-attack when someone hit my horse; horses actually die now.
 c) I've seen cavalry absolutely decimate a group of infantry.
 So yeah, I'd say you're onto something. :lol:
I don't think you've achieved your original goal, though, but that's not your fault.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on February 24, 2007, 03:16:17 AM

Well, AW can stay taking a break ... I was offering to help.  I even said I would help convert the items file to be .808 compatible while I was at it.  At very least, that's one less thing for him to do... speeds the process without adding work for the existing development team.  I didn't ask him to do a lot of work - just to check his mail and then e-mail me some files, and I would do the work.

Again, my original goal was a realistic balance between weapons, armor, and human body ... at least as close as I could get it, given the limitations of the game engine and computer games in general.  I think I came very close to that ... much closer than I really expected to get when I started, actually.  Playability, as I guessed, would be a coincidental result - realistic physics result in more realistic challenges and more suspension of disbelief (i.e. people "get into" the game more).  The physics engine used in M&B is very workable, but the vanilla numbers greatly over-estimated the durability of living things - so I re-scaled the weapons and armor to better reflect how much damage a human can take before they are disabled, and it was an immediate hit with the strictly historical mods ... so I figured, giving Tolkien credit for his vivid descriptions and superb suspension of disbelief, that TLD could benefit as well.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on March 02, 2007, 06:17:06 AM
a guy from another forums sent me this. He's one of the dev team of the Age of Chivalry mod for HLII

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNinLiDZ8Qs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNinLiDZ8Qs)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on March 02, 2007, 02:29:56 PM
That's interesting, I would never imagine the HL2 engine being used for something like that. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 02, 2007, 10:12:19 PM
Yeah, that helms deep model had me drooling.  Big rooms too.  M&B has smaller interiors which I think is related to lighting issues.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: xXempXx on March 09, 2007, 12:00:45 AM
the thing i enjoyed most about your modifications to the combat model, ron losey, was that i could actually shoot an arrow or chuck a spear through someone's face and they would actually die. 

as humorous as it was in vanilla(or any other system ive encountered) to watch some dude with arrows in his chest and his eye charging a full 20 feet with a heavy axe at me...it looses its fun when the guy manages to kill me in the early levels.  or even better when i would be the recipient of said spear/arrow to the face, only to emerge victorious.  i mean, cmon...

im liking the changes.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 09, 2007, 04:27:55 AM
General announcement:
For everybody following the RCM project - I have talked to AW by PM ...

As soon as he gets around to starting on the port to .808,  this project will happen, eventually, provided there are no major interruptions (deaths, nuclear wars, things like that). 

I will be doing the conversion myself - it will not require any immediate help.  Beta tests will be handled by AW's test team whenever the next version is ready for testing, so I will not need separate beta testers.  If anyone wants to help ... help is not needed on this one - make yourself useful somewhere else, by all means. 

****AW said in a couple of posts now that he was NOT ready to start on that project yet, but he was starting to think about it.  I think "starting to get the itch" was his phrase.  There are no time estimates on this.****

So, for all RCM fans ... stand by.  The RCM will come to TLD.  That is the word from myself and AW.  But you will have to wait for the next version, after AW returns from his extended break.  Please wait patiently, and/or find other ways to occupy your time - because it may be a while.

----------------------------------
Meanwhile, posts commenting on the RCM in general should be moved to the Combat Realism threads on one of the other mod boards for now, so as not to clutter up the TLD suggestions thread.  It is no longer necessary to post this as a "suggestion".

Thanks to everyone who has supported the RCM conversion projects.  The public support has been overwhelming - and some version of the RCM is now slated for use on most of the major mods.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on March 09, 2007, 05:11:40 AM
good to know. Maybe I'll be finally able to kill those damn ragged orcs with one hack ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on March 09, 2007, 08:47:53 AM
Could someone enlighten me a bit, here? RCM? Realistic Combat Mod?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 09, 2007, 09:03:49 AM
Could someone enlighten me a bit, here? RCM? Realistic Combat Mod?

RCM - "Realistic Combat Model"

Statistical weapon and armor rebalance model originally developed for Onin-no-Ran, based on medical and combat study to determine likely chances of a wound proving debilitating.  Now in use on Onin-no-Ran, and available as a retrofit to Native (likely to be updated soon).  Also currently being developed for the beta versions of Mesoamerica and Holy War - both still in Beta testing.  Arrangements are being made to convert at least five more major mods to the RCM before their next release - including TLD.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on March 09, 2007, 10:00:07 AM
PLEASE don't use the RCM.  This is my favorite mod and the changes that he describes would completely ruin the game for me.

If you want to make the lower tier orcs, peasants and bandits die in one blow, just reduce their hitpoints.  Here is the code to do it:

(try_for_agents, ":current_agent"),
(agent_is_human, ":current_agent"),
(neg|main_party_has_troop, ":current_agent"),
(neg|agent_is_ally, ":current_agent"),
(agent_get_troop_id, ":troop_id", ":agent_id"),
(troop_set_health, ":troop_id", 25), #sets health to 25%
(end_try),

In fact, I do just that for lom so that I can fine tune the balance.

The whole premise falls flat on its face because the only thing armor can affect is soaking of damage and because of the power strike and power draw skills that make the variation on damage dealt so high.

The biggest amateurish mistake a lot of mods make is to just make the 'cool' items they make have higher stats than the native ones, but these mods tend to have shitty gameplay because it makes it so that enemy blows are always either completely bouncing off you or else they are killing you in one blow, with little in between.  Arrows are an even worse problem, much worse. Due to the power draw and headshot damage doubling this virtually guarantees any headhsot will be a kill, and since the headshot hitbox becomes the size of a horse at later levels at arrows to the chest count as 'headshots' then you can be guaranteed to just randomly shoot arrows into the enemy and insteantly kill them.


Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: xXempXx on March 09, 2007, 11:47:44 AM
any headshot should be a kill, imo.  and, though i cant speak from personal experience, i imagine that taking an arrow to the upper chest/neck, while quite possibly not immediately "fatal", would be sufficient to quickly render one ineffective in combat.

but i think there should be some tweaking in the melee weapons.  just kinda silly when i end up alone on foot against a bunch of horsemen, just waiting to be knocked unconcious because i cant retreat, while waddling around and being battered repeatedly, yet taking no damage.  in such a case i just try to make my way back to the inventory and remove my armor to end the misery...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on March 09, 2007, 11:51:50 AM
Dont worry, this combat model will be an optional mini-mod download. I have a little too much experience fielding balance complaints to force this on anyone.  Ive never even played it before but I dont see a problem with it being an option.

Whenever I get around to finishing the next version anyway... :lol:

Oh, and neat script for health changes bryce. Maybe I could add that to the old man at some point
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on March 09, 2007, 12:09:53 PM
optional sounds great.
I admit I was sceptical towards the RCM too, but I've tested HW for some time now and plays quite fine, it's a challenge after a long time..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on March 09, 2007, 12:48:22 PM
Dont worry, this combat model will be an optional mini-mod download. I have a little too much experience fielding balance complaints to force this on anyone.  Ive never even played it before but I dont see a problem with it being an option.

Whenever I get around to finishing the next version anyway... :lol:

Oh, and neat script for health changes bryce. Maybe I could add that to the old man at some point

Ah, whew.  I did not think you would probably make such a dramatic change anyhow.  After a bit of thinking I realized I could probably make a minimod to change it to another balancing scheme, though.

If there is any specific scripting you want done, just let me know.  Same goes with debugging. I ahve been playing with it quite a bit.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 09, 2007, 07:51:34 PM
Yeah, I forgot to point that out.  RCM will begin as an optional.  If public opinion is slanted strongly one way or the other, that status could change.  (i.e. RCM could become standard and the Native scheme be made an optional.)  At any rate, both will exist for some time at least.  Everyone will be encouraged to test both, and compare.

------------------------------------
And on the armor, note that the lack of plate armors in TLD will somewhat slant the combat in favor of the weapons.  (Also true in ONR.)  The RCM native retrofit has heavy plate armor, but very few troops are designed to handle it - a balance issue that was not corrected, since the Native version was intended as a programmers' resource, not a playable mod.  TLD will be properly balanced in that regard.

The lower hit points script would produce an outcome very similar to the RCM changes in weapon data, assuming you consider the Native weapons modeling accurate.  If everyone were lowered to about 20 hit points or less, it would just about balance for damage.  There would still be issues of weapon speed and the like, plus damage type ... so I still say the weapons should be changed to fit the hit-points, not the other way around.  More versatility that way.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dulahan on March 10, 2007, 12:28:44 AM
I just have to say... I was highly sceptical about this model on Onin No Ran when I first heard about it.  Since I loved that mod...

But I gave it a chance, and there's no turning back.  I honestly don't even want to play a mod that uses any other damage model.  This one is no exception, I love this mod too - and to see the RCM in action here?  This is the one I'm waiting for more than any other.  It was getting ridiculous how easy it was for me to eliminate a Great Host all on my own.  Heck, the only reason I used any of the NPCs was just to get experience for them so they'd be better.  And then only when I thought it was unlikely they'd be killed in the process.

So Bryce, seriously, give Onin no Ran a chance - even if you don't like the theme.  Just give it a chance for the gameplay.  It really does change things, and for the better.  Combat is deadlier, quicker, and much more fun.  Not to mention it is a lot scarier for you.  Yes, some of the lower tier enemies get a bit easy at times (AFTER you get good armor).  But the higher tier foes are bloody terrifying!  I've yet to see any complaints on the ONR forum about the model - unless it is minor arguements over the representation over a certain armor or weapon.  And that's pretty telling, there was a lot of scepticism before hand.

Likewise, I can't wait for the other mods that will be implementing this to have a public release.  ONR I've played to death, and I want to see it in another setting now!  :)

(But again, this one is the one I'm really waiting for.  I can't wait to lead Rohann to victory under this model!)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on March 10, 2007, 12:41:16 AM
I just have to say... I was highly sceptical about this model on Onin No Ran when I first heard about it.  Since I loved that mod...


You weren't the only one who was skeptical.  When I first put this to pencil and paper, I didn't give it a snowball's chance in heck of working.

I have been as astounded by the results as anyone.

Anyway, it WILL come to TLD, unless a nuclear war or something disrupts the project.
Meanwhile, fans can help by testing the model in ONR, the Native retrofit or the various betas currently using it, and get me as much feedback as possible (preferably in the threads for those mods).  The more de-bugged it is, by the time TLD is ready, the more smooth the transition will be.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on March 11, 2007, 10:15:43 AM
Ah, now I see. Well, anything making things realistic, is fine by me. I'll probably use the RCM when it's ready.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Heimir on April 01, 2007, 01:44:15 PM
This is just a suggestion to add some feeling to your gaming. While playing the Last Days be sure to be listening to the band called "Battlelore", they make song's about Lord of the Ring and they add alot of erm..feeling to the game. I Especially like listening to the song "Sons of Riddermark" as im playing Rohan.

Be sure to check their music-samples out at their webbpage (http://www.battlelore.net/site/?page_id=21).

Hope this adds alot to the game for you as it has for me. (Some songs are a bit heavy so if thats not your type theres many songs that are "nicer")
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dstarsboy on April 01, 2007, 04:59:51 PM
How does that combat model work, does anyone have a link to a forum posting or something that has the mechanics? I'm pretty interested.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 01, 2007, 05:41:55 PM
How does that combat model work, does anyone have a link to a forum posting or something that has the mechanics? I'm pretty interested.

The RCM is now operational on the released versions of Onin-no-Ran and Mesoamerica.  (If you are studying game balance, do not use the dojo training in ONR - it is highly unbalancing... that is scheduled to be corrected in future versions.)  There is also a RCM retrofit to Native, which has not been balanced for long-term play, but the download includes the module_items.py file so the details of the model could be studied.  (There may be bugs ... it's still a project in development.)

Extensive discussions on the game mechanics and accommodations for the M&B engine can be found on the ONR and Mesoamerica forums, under appropriate headings ("Combat realism model" or something like that).

All of the aforementioned files are on the file repository.

(Holy War has also been converted to this system, but it is currently in closed beta, and unrelated delays in development mean you should probably not wait for that one.  Several other mods are scheduled for conversion, but not yet ready to begin work.)

If you need specific details for some project, contact me by PM.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Nahkis on April 02, 2007, 01:25:42 AM
In Mesoamerica it's pretty damn easy to kill everyone, because you can kill them with a single blow. And they didn't seem to cause me much damage. However, the fact I had damage reduced to 1/4 might have something to do with it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 02, 2007, 01:40:32 AM
In Mesoamerica it's pretty damn easy to kill everyone, because you can kill them with a single blow. And they didn't seem to cause me much damage. However, the fact I had damage reduced to 1/4 might have something to do with it.

Well, duh ... if you turn down the difficulty until you are being attacked by a herd of ducks, then no combat model is going to be accurate.  You're going to be superman and they're going to be a herd of ducks.  If you want it easier, turn down the AI ... then the model will still balance blow-for-blow, but you will still have certain advantages.

Also note that Mesoamerica is historically unbalanced ... only one side has steel weapons and armor, and the other side is neolithic.  The neolithic side has a lot more guys, eventually, to make up for that ... but it takes a while to realize this.  (You can win every one of your battles, and your side can still lose the war.)  The eventual RCM version for TLD will NOT have that dynamic in play ... the two sides, although using very different weapons and tactics, should come out more or less equal man for man (or orc or whatever).  That will throw off the comparison by a little bit.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Finos on April 04, 2007, 04:30:57 AM
  I would really like to see dwarfes in the new version, playable if its not to hard...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 04, 2007, 05:09:44 AM
  I would really like to see dwarfes in the new version, playable if its not to hard...

not gonna happen. Not possible. There won't be dwarves. They're in the preparations though. Check the concept art thread.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Finos on April 04, 2007, 03:23:44 PM
Anyone had the idea of adding Dale as a faction or just as a town?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 05, 2007, 12:55:52 AM
Anyone had the idea of adding Dale as a faction or just as a town?

yes
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 05, 2007, 01:33:07 AM
Anyone had the idea of adding Dale as a faction or just as a town?

yes

That was insightful.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 05, 2007, 04:27:23 AM
it was a correct answer to that particular question.

If I wanted to repeat what has been posted before, I might add that Dale has indeed been suggested along with enlarging of the whole map to the north and east. Which would allow the dwarves as a faction, maybe dale as a co minor faction and a post war of the ring campaign to the east for the good factions.
If only people read a few pages back or used search before they make a suggestion...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 05, 2007, 05:16:08 AM
Oh, of course.  My "Middle Earth" geography was just too weak to see the connection between Dale and the previous discussions of extending the map.

Still, however, that response was like:

"Do you know the time?"
"Yes"
"Oh, thank you ... wait ... tell me the time, then."
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 05, 2007, 05:36:24 AM
I think someone even mentioned Dale in that discussion about the map extension (don't know, but I think I did).
And yes, it was as you say. And it was like that on purpose. I'm a mean person. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 05, 2007, 05:57:44 AM
I've got to start taking lessons on that.  I've been covering for Raz on HW every time some fool asks when it will be done ... and I need a better format to make them go away.  In person, I can make those types go away just by the way I look at them.  Can't really do that in print.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ursca on April 05, 2007, 06:45:34 AM
I always find that Highlander's on good form with those types of responses.
Like this (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,380.msg4107.html#msg4107) or this (http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,21838.0.html). This (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,400.msg4736.html#msg4736) one he managed without saying any words at all!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Damien on April 06, 2007, 04:21:49 AM
Quote
Still, however, that response was like:

"Do you know the time?"
"Yes"
"Oh, thank you ... wait ... tell me the time, then."

Not really. He asked if it was suggested. It was. Merl said as much. Isn't anything more he really could have said. The new version isn't out, and we know very little of what will be in it - so he can't confirm that the idea is being used. All he can say is that yes, it was suggested already.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Juice on April 06, 2007, 07:41:51 AM
Hello, I have played the mod for about 2 weeks now with the sides of gondor and isengard and I have to say it rocks.

I find it very annoying that all the wolf/warg/white hand riders are so weak (especially against rohan cavalry) and I don't want to rely on pure infantry (well haradrims and easterlings are an option, but they are so far and won't be available soon for me anymore...).
So I would like that if they would be strengthened a bit in the next patch. ;)

Also adding few reward items would be nice(especially boots and/or helmet for the isengard/mordor).

Thanks, Juice
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 06, 2007, 07:53:07 AM
Juice: warg riders are much stronger in the dev build I have. :) Also the number of reward items seems higher..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Nahkis on April 07, 2007, 05:35:40 AM
Would it be possible to put one of the starting classes for mordor as a marksman of umbar? If you start out as a man of mordor, it would be nice to start out as a crossbowman.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Finos on April 07, 2007, 12:57:14 PM
I dont remember that the men of Umbar used crossbows, but there is'nt much writen about them...

Anyone know in wich book and chapter i can find info about em?

( Im totally sure they dont use crossbows! )

( I must perform seppuku to preserv my honor if im wrong!   :lol: )
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 07, 2007, 01:02:00 PM
They're not said to use crossbows. But for the sake of gameplay and to spice up the variety of weapons, AW gave them crossbows. Numenorians were said to use "steel bows." Who knows if the corsair haven't picked that custom from them.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 08, 2007, 03:48:22 AM
Random thought of the day:

Has anyone considered adding wizards and/or magic staff?  Possibly using firearms attributes to create a staff that would project force?

I created the Asian pellet crossbows for ONR using firearms attributes.  I know it is feasible to mess with those traits.  I don't know what it would entail to make it look right for a magic staff, but it must be possible.  I'm also not sure how to create something like that without making it such that anybody could use it.

The question is if it would add to the game, or be unbalancing, and/or how to incorporate such.
That's the reason this is a random thought, and not a specific idea.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: octoburn on April 08, 2007, 08:18:43 AM
I say no. first of all, there were only 5 wizards in Middle Earth, two of whom are unaccounted for. second, "magic" in Tolkien's works wasn't really what we'd call magic. Tolkien doesn't use the word wizard as the stereotype wizard of children's tales (except Gandalf in the Hobbit, which was a child's tale) and their staffs don't exactly do magical things within the context of either the Hobbit or LOTR. Tolkien, as a linguist, used the word "wizard" not as in the modern use, as a reference to a magician or sorcerer, but from it's linguistic root "wise man" with their main power being their knowledge and wisdom, not "conjurers of cheap tricks." their wisdom, and "magic", come from existing since the Music of the Ainur, and being in Middle Earth for over a thousand years. I don't think the player should have the option of being able to pick up a staff and learning all of this instantly.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 08, 2007, 08:32:48 AM
I'm against any magic too. I mean, it may be nice for the gameplay, but as Octo says, magic wasn't that common and even if the player is a powerful being, he's not a wizard..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Nahkis on April 08, 2007, 09:17:46 AM
Yes, it would be rather stupid.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 08, 2007, 09:24:07 AM
Just not fit to the theme. Even the commercial MMORPG has a magic class in a form of a scholar who throws explosive powder or something..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on April 08, 2007, 09:29:49 AM
At one point I thought about doing it, as an option. You would select at the old man an option for a "high magic" middle earth where there was a more dungeons and dragons magical style.   I wouldnt have it as the default though.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Finos on April 08, 2007, 12:40:42 PM
They're not said to use crossbows. But for the sake of gameplay and to spice up the variety of weapons, AW gave them crossbows. Numenorians were said to use "steel bows." Who knows if the corsair haven't picked that custom from them.

where not the corsairs of Umbar heirs to the black numenorians?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 08, 2007, 01:52:06 PM
that's exactly our point ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on April 08, 2007, 04:49:30 PM
I don't think the player should have the option of being able to pick up a staff and learning all of this instantly.

That's why I said I don't know if it could be implemented or not.  However, the elves and others could apparently conjure a few tricks as well, although they did not qualify as "wizard".  If this were attempted, one would have to be extremely careful of how it was implemented and/or balanced.  I would certainly not dispute that.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Finos on April 09, 2007, 01:29:03 PM
Clear the way! Suggestion comin trough!

I kno that AW wants to avoid big battles and therefor no seigable citys, but what about raiding villages??
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 09, 2007, 02:00:35 PM
Clear the way! Suggestion comin trough!

I kno that AW wants to avoid big battles and therefor no seigable citys, but what about raiding villages??

that's one of the thing I can imagine that could be in the mod in the future. But as everything else, it falls under the "war system rewamp" that will not be done in this version and which will wait for the new MaB.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Righteous Man on April 09, 2007, 08:21:49 PM
I think everything is fine with the game, except the fact you cant really go into areas like Minas Tirith, Helms Deep, Edoras, I know there big but there could be sectional areas possibly,  instead of always going to the Market, tavern, smithy, castle hall, ect.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Caer_Baer on April 10, 2007, 01:32:25 AM
Excuse me, huge suggestion incoming..   :)

Hm. What about something like, uh, 'advanced tactics'? Instead of raiding a village, you could raid great hosts?

Here, an example, summat like:

Playing as Gondor, you decide to take on a great host of Mordor. However, since you are grossly outnumbered, you
opt to use 'advanced tactics' against them:

"You are facing a Great Host, et cetera. After a bit of consideration, you choose to.."

1.Use the main bulk of your army to hold off their main forces while you lead your Rangers in an ambush against their
  slower- moving units/archers (requires 20+ Infantry, 10+ Rangers, just an example)
2.Have your Heavy Infantry form a wall, with your Archers supporting them from behind, while you lead your cav to flank
  their ranged units (requires X numbers of infantry, archers, cav)
3.Command your cav to lure their faster units away while you lead your infantry against their remaining troops
3.Attack them head-on(default)
4.Run away.

This could up the risk/reward ratio. Say you choose 1:Ranger ambush. If you lose, you get something like "Your ambush failed.
Only a few rangers survive, and the rest of your troops take heavy casualties(x troops killed, x wounded)".
If you win, "Your ambush was successful, in the confusion, your troops inflict extra damage, taking only light casualties
(x enemy killed, x friendlies wounded/dead)"

Maybe even have some sort of continuity to it: "Ambush success. They are in disarray. Do what now?"
1.Continue leading the rangers to inflict additional damage against any targets of opportunity.
2.Lead a cav rush to attack them while they regroup.
3.Have your infantry form up while your archers shoot down any stragglers trying to regroup.

Of course, the enemy will try do the same to you - "Uruk Slayers trying to flank. They seem to be targeting your archers."
1.Intercept them with rangers(or cav), w/c you personally lead
2.Order rangers/cav to intercept them while you're attacking the main host(some ranger/cav temporarily 'disabled', since they're busy)
3.Assign some infantry to guard your archers while they fire on the Slayers (you still fight the main, but minus some inf/arch temp.)
4.Order your archers to fall back(temp. disable, but chance of light/no casualty for archers)
5.Reckon that it's a ruse and continue attacking the main host with all of your troops (though if it ain't, archers be screwed)

Or mebbe you could customize the troops you'll field on the battlefield:
"According to tactics scores and your current battlesize limits, you can field 40 against their 60. You have 20 slots left.
Your current troops are 10 infantry, 5 cav, 5 archers"
1.Add 5 infantry (18 remaining)
2.Add 5 rangers (6 remain)
3.et cetera

Of course, 'advanced tactics' could have minimum requirements: tactics score/level/rank/whatever

What do you think? I don't know about the programming bit, but I remain confident in the modders' abilities, should the M&B engine allow it..
Could be interesting, think about it.
(oh, yeah. sorry. I liek loong posts :-[)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on April 10, 2007, 06:42:07 AM
@ Righteous Man:

The next version may have some surprises for you. ;)


Caer_Baer:

I do like your suggestion, Caer. I don't know if it's possible to implement any of them, though, That's AW department.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Juice on April 10, 2007, 07:41:37 AM
Quote
Or mebbe you could customize the troops you'll field on the battlefield:
"According to tactics scores and your current battlesize limits, you can field 40 against their 60. You have 20 slots left.
Your current troops are 10 infantry, 5 cav, 5 archers"
1.Add 5 infantry (18 remaining)
2.Add 5 rangers (6 remain)
3.et cetera

this would be really nice improvement if this could be made, its annoying when troops which you don't want to enter, enter anyways >.<

Btw, Suggestion: What if you would add sergeants to the factions? They could lead minor parties (such as foragers, caravans, etc) and such. Then an upgrade tree (If that would be added) for them could be like sergeant---->liutanent--->captain--->high captain(--->general?) or something like that.

Just an idea which I today got when I gained an elven liutanent and a rohan captain to my party.

Juice


Edit: a city or two would be nice for isengard and mordor, It's not fun  when you get only about 4 quests at a time.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boy_suicide on April 10, 2007, 10:16:30 AM
If it's just a leader class you want, you can rescue captured captains and lieutenants, though you can't train em.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on April 10, 2007, 02:09:42 PM
Quote
Or mebbe you could customize the troops you'll field on the battlefield:
"According to tactics scores and your current battlesize limits, you can field 40 against their 60. You have 20 slots left.
Your current troops are 10 infantry, 5 cav, 5 archers"
1.Add 5 infantry (18 remaining)
2.Add 5 rangers (6 remain)
3.et cetera


That's modable, but a lot of work.

The troops enter based on their order in your party, so it is pretty easy to control it for the most part....

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Grocat on April 11, 2007, 01:18:51 AM
If it's just a leader class you want, you can rescue captured captains and lieutenants, though you can't train em.

And part of the reason you can't train them, if I recall correctly, is that the game already has so many upgrade trees, that it literally won't be able to fit much more.  There is a limit to the number of upgrades, so AW figured it would be better to use them up on a unit that isn't so rarely going to be involved.

-Grocat
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Juice on April 13, 2007, 09:25:13 AM


And part of the reason you can't train them, if I recall correctly, is that the game already has so many upgrade trees, that it literally won't be able to fit much more.  There is a limit to the number of upgrades, so AW figured it would be better to use them up on a unit that isn't so rarely going to be involved.

-Grocat

okay, didnt have idea about that
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Albino on April 14, 2007, 11:39:48 PM
Is it possible to code, where parties travel to? I know that you can control where parties spawn at, so I am hoping that you could do that too.

What I'm getting to is that rarely any isengard units go to the east-emmet, or the area east of Fangorn Forest. Most of the action is between Edoras or Helms Deep.

Same with many parts of Gondor, most of the action is near Minas Tirith or Pelargir.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Nahkis on April 15, 2007, 09:56:09 AM
The great hosts do travel between their enemies' cities. And I've noticed that there's quite a bit of action around Linhir. (Corsairs fooling around.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Colan on April 16, 2007, 10:27:59 AM
Thought of it when I was playing.
Couldnt you add our heroes to the arena, to the team youre playing? So they could level also!
That would be great!
And also, some battle music?

And no, I dont know shit of games how they work. But just some suggestions.
Thanks for a great mod.

Colan
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on April 16, 2007, 11:19:12 AM
Thought of it when I was playing.
Couldnt you add our heroes to the arena, to the team youre playing? So they could level also!
That would be great!
And also, some battle music?

And no, I dont know shit of games how they work. But just some suggestions.
Thanks for a great mod.

Colan


Yeah, I'd like that too. But I believe the arena needs to be reworked, so it makes more sense in TLD.

We can't use copyrighted music in the mod, but you can change the music in your game; there used to be a tutorial at Taleworlds on how to do that (it's easy). I know there are some music mods for download too, look around.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: vuk on April 17, 2007, 02:22:58 PM
When is the version for .808 going to be released?
Kinda off topic, but since I'm here: can I use the old version with the new version of M&B?
Thanks,
      Vuk
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on April 17, 2007, 02:37:54 PM
When is the version for .808 going to be released?
Kinda off topic, but since I'm here: can I use the old version with the new version of M&B?
Thanks,
      Vuk

The next version for .808 is being worked on, hang on. ;)

No, you can't. But you can have both .751 and .808 working, if you want to play some mods for the older version. Look here:

http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,20055.msg422704.html#msg422704
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: vuk on April 17, 2007, 02:39:21 PM
Thanks! Where can I get the older version?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on April 17, 2007, 02:40:39 PM
Thanks! Where can I get the older version?

http://www.taleworlds.com/download/mountandblade_0751_setup.exe
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: vuk on April 17, 2007, 02:46:40 PM
Thank you!

Vuk
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: SamsonT on April 25, 2007, 03:31:35 AM
Hey All,

Been playing the mod for about a day now, congratulations on making such a playable game.  Seeing as a large part of the mod plays like a strategy game i thought it would make sense if the player's view on the world map expanded to include all his friendly parties and their own field of vision.  I think this would add to the 'overall war' aspect of the game, because the player would then be able to follow where the large parties went, or know when to go help one great host when it's fighting another.  It would just save wandering about looking for the major parties which is especially frustrating on such a large map.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Tuckles on April 25, 2007, 04:49:52 AM
i don't think that's possible using MnB's engine.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on April 25, 2007, 09:48:05 AM
couple of suggestions here

DISCLAIMER: (some of these things have been mentioned and discussed before on Taleworlds, some are probably already in new version, but please bear with me, suggestion thread on TW forums is 100 pages long so kinda hard to sift through :D)

1. Horses: special reward horse for Rohirrim - méaras (been discussed in Sep on TW) and Asfaloth for Glorfindel.

2. a little more special Mithril reward hauberk would be nice, the one that's in feels very generic. not a big deal but would be nice for them to be unique.

3. Oliphants... nah i am just joking, i know game's limitations :P

4. conquerable outposts, also been mentioned back in April.

5. Rohan helm with a full aventail - i've mentioned it before and can provide all the concept art needed, having said that, it's probably not too much hassle to add it. i will pay... in flesh, if needed ;)

6. elven bows as reward or rare type of merchandise. would have to be best bows in game. at least as rare as elven warhorse, which i actually got yesterday, heavy elven warhorse from Rivendell!!!


more to come. thanks in advance for any feedback.

PS will Yogi mods (conversation mod especially) be in new version? i find them incredibly useful
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 25, 2007, 10:23:50 AM
1) shouldn't be hard to do and I see no reason for it not to be implemented.
2) done already.
3) meh.
4) wouldn't expect that. Will probably be in the war system revamp after the new MaB comes out.
5) not sure. Wouldn't be hard to make though. Just persuade Octoburn long enough ;)
6) I think that's done.

don't know about Yogi's minimods.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on April 25, 2007, 10:45:09 AM
1) shouldn't be hard to do and I see no reason for it not to be implemented.
2) done already.
3) meh.
4) wouldn't expect that. Will probably be in the war system revamp after the new MaB comes out.
5) not sure. Wouldn't be hard to make though. Just persuade Octoburn long enough ;)
6) I think that's done.

don't know about Yogi's minimods.

thanks Merlkir, you're a star. and i will try and persuade Octoburn, and hard!

ok, for the next suggestion, plate armor!  :green: i counted at least 19* instances of people annoyingly asking that question over and over in TW forums. i guess it's understandable if you never read the book and you know your Tolkien from Jackson's vision of it. it's almost as bad as thinking you know Hyboria from Conan the Barbarian  :P

* in 1 hour of reading while at work
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 25, 2007, 10:48:51 AM
only 19 times? can't believe it was that few.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: pelias117 on April 26, 2007, 02:00:51 AM
I registered just to add my 50 cents to this forum.  PLEASE add a little bit to the Iron Skin skill for The Last Days Mod.  Its not just that I think its bad in the main game (I Do) but for the Lord of the Rings where people like Boromir took 20 arrows to take down, it seems like +3 or even +4 hit points per dot in ironskin would be more appropriate.

For one dot I can get 5(!) more mounted knights (leadership), Do 6% more damange (Power Strike), or 2 hp.  I don't know why anybody would ever focus on this skill, but in the context of lord of the rings, it seems even more appropriate to have the skill matter more.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on April 26, 2007, 02:39:22 AM
PS will Yogi mods (conversation mod especially) be in new version? i find them incredibly useful

I'm happy you like my minimods, Senta. I don't know but I don't believe they'll be included in the next update, some of them (the conversation mod especially) are unbalancing to the game since you can grab experienced troops from other armies with them. They're only good for playing with self-imposed house rules.

I would update them, but unfortunately I can only use the unofficial editor, and it doesn't work with v0.8x of M&B, so they probably won't be. For the same reason, I gave up on my equipment mod (grouping especially similar-looking swords after cultures), because I would be unable to bring it into a v. 0.8x TLD.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on April 26, 2007, 06:36:41 AM
PS will Yogi mods (conversation mod especially) be in new version? i find them incredibly useful

I'm happy you like my minimods, Senta. I don't know but I don't believe they'll be included in the next update, some of them (the conversation mod especially) are unbalancing to the game since you can grab experienced troops from other armies with them. They're only good for playing with self-imposed house rules.

I would update them, but unfortunately I can only use the unofficial editor, and it doesn't work with v0.8x of M&B, so they probably won't be. For the same reason, I gave up on my equipment mod (grouping especially similar-looking swords after cultures), because I would be unable to bring it into a v. 0.8x TLD.

well, that's a shame. conversation mod made the game more complete. I could actually stock hosts up with developed soldiers while taking their lower tier troops to level them up. i hope there will be some similar utility, it makes sense and it would be hard to go back to no troops storing/transfering.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 26, 2007, 06:39:56 AM
I think the exchange ability should be included. I must bugger AW about it ;) Maybe from a certain rank, but supporting hosts with my trained troops was really good and helpful.

I believe there are places where you can store troops in the next version.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on April 26, 2007, 08:10:55 AM
I think the exchange ability should be included. I must bugger AW about it ;) Maybe from a certain rank, but supporting hosts with my trained troops was really good and helpful.

exactly. i never actually took any good troops from anyone, but gave them plenty.
another good thing about Yogi's mods was getting rid of PoW in every city, better than dragging them all across the map to fort. plus rewards for officers were nice. i hope that will be included in some form, as it is very helpful.

btw will Elves be playable? i gather that AW wasn't really keen on that idea from reading TW forums, but was planning on adding them at some point ("Then you have 4 current factions with elves to be added at some point which would require at least 4-5 variations on a story of some kind. There is no story I can imagine that would fit elves and orcs without some conversation differences. Thats a lot of conversation, sure to greatly increase the conversation-bug crash rate if not make the mod totally unplayable." - from TW). what is the final word on it? no biggie either way, just curious.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on April 26, 2007, 08:22:12 AM
in the dev beta I have (which is for 751 so it's pretty outdated) the elves are playable. But buggy I think.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Xstarcraft5x on April 30, 2007, 10:37:59 PM
i know this has already been mentioned tons of times and replies are that you guys are working on it, but if The Last Days comes out in .808 sooner, i bet it would be hella more fun cause first, i dont know if its my comp, but .751 seems hella laggy and has several bugs in it that .808 and older versions didnt have. Also, the background is too dark. When i teleported to barad-dur for fun, i get kicked out and i kinda have to really squint at the text to see what its saying.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 01, 2007, 01:08:42 AM
there will be a new BG screen in the new version.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Xstarcraft5x on May 01, 2007, 03:18:45 PM
BG screen? what is that?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 01, 2007, 03:21:48 PM
BG == background
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on May 09, 2007, 01:06:34 PM
This has probably been mentioned before but there really should be a better mix of ranged units in a lot of patrols and hosts. Formations consisting wholly of melee units get chewed up by 1 solo horse archer.  The only reason I bring an army along for these is to level them. Seeing as how deadly ranged units are in general  (and recognised by the old man options at the brigand fort), there should be at least more melee units with a chance at throwing missiles with mordor/isen/moria/dol guldur troop formations. 

Even the 20 or so archers in the lesser/great hosts are not enough to prevent them being laid waste by a good archer. The small shields don't help this at all.  I suggest at least 20% of every formation be dedicated range units, with another 25% that have a chance of throwing missles. That will make it much much harder to solo these groups unscathed
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on May 11, 2007, 05:48:47 PM
I think playable elves are a bad idea.

Elves are supposed to be uber from the cradle to the grave, but PC are ridiculous when they start, wouldn't down a lame goblin if they tied it to the ground (a-la monty pyton).

Elves also think somewhat different, see much crisper (idea: you can only be an elf if you have a monitor with hyper resolution ;) ), feel the call from the sea, and are mysterious in general, and other things that collide with them being mundane PCs.

But of course: go ahead, I will just not play them.
(I still would be happier if implementation effort was spent elsewhere).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 12, 2007, 01:24:48 AM
it's just as you said. You don't have to play them. I know I won't
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: averyware on May 16, 2007, 09:31:16 PM
im sure this has touch base at some point but what about a opening movie?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 17, 2007, 12:46:53 AM
im sure this has touch base at some point but what about a opening movie?

we would love to. I know I would spend the time making it. But sadly, MaB doesn't support movie sequences in any way. So I think we could still make a trailer or an intro and include it in the package with the mod. Would be nice. I've even made some storyboards for it. It was quite an insane plan, I wouldn't be able to make so much material in 3D and neither in 2D animation..I've even considered some live action, that would be easy, because I have lots of friends who do reenacment and have armor and weapons..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on May 17, 2007, 08:35:43 AM
I think it would be cool to use game footage for that.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 17, 2007, 01:11:04 PM
I think it would be cool to use game footage for that.

of course, I forgot to mention that :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: averyware on May 17, 2007, 01:42:54 PM
warcraft games are a good example of few chars but great opening movies, warcraft 3 theres like 6 chars. and 4 of them were the same model (soldier/guard) or something havent seen it for some time.

i have been learning zbrush and could as some of my college budies to help out just for a project like this.?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 17, 2007, 02:57:11 PM
If this was ever to happen, it needs to be planned properly. It would be a wasted work if we've just modeled some characters and hoped to create a good video with them.
I don't say no, it's a good idea. Just needs to be well thought out. I don't really have the time now because of my exams, but in three or four weeks I could work on this a lot.

We'd need a script, set roles for people who'd be making it, like concepts for environments, we could use some of my concept art for characters, or make completely new ones...A storyboard probably. Lots of preparation :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: averyware on May 18, 2007, 09:51:26 AM
Merlkir i think when you have time we should brain storm some ideas, ive done some pre-production in college. not saying im good or bad just that i remember a lot of the detailed stuff we'll need like you said yourself.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 18, 2007, 12:31:29 PM
OK, I'll let you know when I'm ready :) I don't really have experience in this...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ursca on May 18, 2007, 02:44:43 PM
I wouldn't mind lending a hand too.
I've got a bit of experience 3dsmax and zbrush now, and I'd love to put it into practice.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on May 18, 2007, 02:59:19 PM
I wouldn't mind lending a hand too.
I've got a bit of experience 3dsmax and zbrush now, and I'd love to put it into practice.

nice! :) I haven't even tried ZBrush. But I admire it's powers.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Jaquestrap on May 28, 2007, 02:57:31 PM
This suggestion is much more of a really long term one, but I think it would be cool if you could play as the fellowship, and just play stages of what they did. I thought of this after seeing the Hero Quest thread, just in this version, you can pick when you make a character on whether or not you want to participate in the war aspect, or in the fellowship. It would be something like that you could pick either Merry, Pippin, Sam, Aragorn, Legolas (will probably be the most popular choice), Gimli, and Gandalf. Borimir would be unplayable as he died at one point, but he would help you until the end of the stage that he dies in, and Frodo would be unplayable because he hardly fights at all, though he would be in your party and helping you in any levels you might share with him. Basically it would be multiple prearranged battles that you have to win with the units that you are given, and you must win them all in order. Since the fellowship split apart, each character would later have different stages with only certain units assisting them. In the beginning few battles all of them would be together, but later, say if you picked Sam, you would have to fight against certain people with only Frodo on your team, or not even him. This would add a lot of replayability to the game, and would be nice because it would make the mod even better.


Also it would be cool if in the beginning of the game if you chose the war style, you could also choose whether or not you wanted to have a Party representing the fellowship, and later just Sam and Frodo making their way across the map (very, very, slowly, and stopping at many points for long periods of time) and you would have to make sure that they would not be defeated, while also making sure that no factions are defeated as well.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on May 28, 2007, 03:42:00 PM
That would be an entirely new mod on it's own :P
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on May 29, 2007, 03:01:53 AM
A really good programmer could do it as a mini-mod of this one.  However, it would take somebody who really knew what they were doing ... script-driven games/mods suffer terribly from balance issues, and frequently lack playability (you feel like you're jumping through hoops for the designer, instead of laying a game).

Actually, the lack of the "major" players in Tolkien's work is probably what makes TLD different from the 10,000 LOTR-based games out there already.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stemmers? on June 12, 2007, 11:35:48 AM
Just a simple suggestion -- big "rigid" bows, like longbows and warbows, should not be usable on horseback. It also looks like the bows are one of the few things left over from native - is there any plan to replace them in the next build?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Triglav on June 12, 2007, 01:22:25 PM
Just a simple suggestion -- big "rigid" bows, like longbows and warbows, should not be usable on horseback. It also looks like the bows are one of the few things left over from native - is there any plan to replace them in the next build?

Very true.

I am also somewhat against orcs using longbows. They should stick to short and curved stuff imho...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 12, 2007, 03:52:18 PM
Just a simple suggestion -- big "rigid" bows, like longbows and warbows, should not be usable on horseback. It also looks like the bows are one of the few things left over from native - is there any plan to replace them in the next build?

Very true.

I am also somewhat against orcs using longbows. They should stick to short and curved stuff imho...

The only orcs using longbows are the Uruk (as in the books), I believe.

I think this was brought up before, and I agree. I don't think there are any troops using longbows on horseback though, just warbows.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Triglav on June 13, 2007, 02:51:41 AM
The only orcs using longbows are the Uruk (as in the books), I believe.

Ach, well, must have not been paying attention to which bad guy was shooting at me with it ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stemmers? on June 13, 2007, 12:52:20 PM
Yeah, it's pretty specifically stated in the books that the Uruk-Hai use "great bows", which I assume means longbow or warbow.

Some faction-specific bows would be nice, like a composite bow for Rohan, maybe a horn bow for the Haradrim, I don't know. Since the Corsairs already have crossbows, maybe they could have a Chu-ko-nu or something. That might be stretching it a bit, but more variety is always a good thing in my eyes.

I also think there should be more viable 2hand blunt weapons, but I can't think of any specific kinds off the top of my head that I'd like to see.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Bloid on June 13, 2007, 07:20:00 PM
Hi, just registered. Just some things, sorry if they've been brought up before:

- Théoden should have white hair since this is book-based (great execution)

- Uruks are the same as Uruk-hai (and -hai should not be capitalized). Maybe "Uruks of Mordor" should be slightly weaker than "Uruks of Isengard".

- I'd prefer it if there were no crossbows, but then I'll just refrain from using them. I wholeheartedly commend the lack of plate, though!

- I'm not too sure about Rohirric surcoats (heraldric armor); the current "vanilla" version has hauberks, shirts, and haubergeons...

- Rangers of the North? They don't fit in any faction, however.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 14, 2007, 12:11:52 AM
read...read! :) Nobody reads these days...

- he doesn't? hm.
- I'm a bit lost in the whole orc terminology, I guess the scholars will sort that one out.
- Yeah, only corsairs have them, a little pleasure for AW :)
- Rohirrim wear a whole variety of armor. Good looking imho.
- yeahm...we sure do have Dunedain. They're with Rivendell elves.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 14, 2007, 02:43:26 AM
About the Rohan gear; I guess when the mod started Ancientwanker was doing the whole thing by himself (including textures), and the heraldic armor model was used for all the factions (just changing colors and logos accordingly), because it was easy and quick to work on. These versions which are still in were improved since then, after more people started helping with the graphics (like myself, Merlkir and others). But I agree that old surcoat doesn't fit in that good for Rohan (although Merlkir made a nice job on it); I do preffer to see them wearing studded leather and scale.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 14, 2007, 03:12:29 AM
Also the old troop tree included at least some of the Uruk being upgraded to Uruk-hai ... don't remember exactly how that worked out, but you can probably find the troop trees somewhere.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Nahkis on June 14, 2007, 08:35:32 AM
Maybe "Uruks of Mordor" should be slightly weaker than "Uruks of Isengard".

I don't remember any part in the books telling that the black Uruks of Mordor were any weaker than the Uruks of Isengard.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Kääp on June 14, 2007, 02:48:43 PM
- Uruks are the same as Uruk-hai (and -hai should not be capitalized). Maybe "Uruks of Mordor" should be slightly weaker than "Uruks of Isengard".

I don't know, how reliable this is, but still:
http://www.answers.com/topic/uruk-hai

Quote
In The Two Towers, Aragorn observes that the fallen Uruk-hai at Amon Hen were not like any breed of Orc he has seen before. Since he had previously served in the Army of Gondor as "Thorongil" and probably encountered the Uruks of Mordor, this strongly implies that those of Isengard are a different breed of Uruk, modified by Saruman. Treebeard speculates that Saruman has crossed Orcs with Men, a "black evil".

And aren't some of the orcs in Moria described as "Uruks of mordor" if I remember correctly. Was Shagrat an uruk? Because he is mentioned to be just an big orc whit long arms and crook-legs.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 14, 2007, 02:56:32 PM
hai just means 'folk', but it's obvious from the books the uruks of mordor and the uruks of isengard were somewhat different....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on June 14, 2007, 09:38:15 PM
The way I took it was that Uruk was possibly an orcish title, and Sarumon  (the former-white wizard, not the ring's owner) took these orcs, did something vague and magical to add some human traits and voila, there's your Isengard Uruks. This is all coming from someone who hasnt re-read the books since about 9th grade though. I do have a copy of the Silmarillian somewhere, I'd guess if it says anywhere it would be there.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 14, 2007, 09:48:09 PM
Wasn't the line something about Sarumon crossing orcs with goblin men to breed an army that could move in daylight?  I know they used that line in the most recent movies, but I vaguely recall something of that being in the books as well ... although granted, I haven't really done any reading on them since about 9th grade either.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on June 14, 2007, 10:04:53 PM
That brings up another stupid question: were the goblins a seperate race from the orcs, or was it just a second name? I always thought they were the same race because Tolkien used the word goblin in The Hobbit and orc in Lotr (or at least my copies have that difference) Or perhaps northern orcs are known as goblins and are slightly different such as how there were various kinds of elves and such. If I remember correctly there is a passage in the last book that describes two types of orcs guarding the tower Frodo was being held in before Sam's rescue, just after the huge spider.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 15, 2007, 02:43:22 PM
I think the goblins are sort of the 'wild' orcs. There is some reason to think they are a little different but I forget what.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 15, 2007, 06:54:59 PM
let me suggest a full aventail Rohan helmet, since i haven't suggested it in like, 4 pages  ;) <- winking at Merlkir

btw, great looking eye candy (new Rohan heraldry, armor, Minas Tirith, Hornburg etc) in this version, i mean stuff that a lot of pros would be jealous of! great work guys.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Bloid on June 16, 2007, 03:06:07 AM
From http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#OrcGoblin

The words "Orc" and "Goblin" are essentially identical in meaning, but Tolkien's inconsistent usage in The Hobbit has led to considerable confusion. Still, a clear answer comes from Tolkien's introductory note to later editions of that book, which explains that:

"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures."

I've just downloaded version 2.3 and Saruman wears a black robe. Not really a bug though.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 16, 2007, 03:49:20 AM
I've just downloaded version 2.3 and Saruman wears a black robe. Not really a bug though.

probably from the lack of white robes in mab in general :D quick retexture will probably fix that. (maybe we could write some interesting shader to make it change color...woot :) I really have to finish up that reading on HLSL)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: emperor77 on June 16, 2007, 04:44:37 AM
Shouldn't Infantry of Gondor wear plate armor instead of chain mail?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Highlander on June 16, 2007, 04:47:28 AM
No.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 16, 2007, 04:47:47 AM
Shouldn't Infantry of Gondor wear plate armor instead of chain mail?

 >:( ::) yeah, I wonder when this one comes again. NO! this mod is book based. NOT MOVIES! :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: emperor77 on June 16, 2007, 05:53:53 AM
Ok sorry I haven't read the book. But i think plate is a lot cooler.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 16, 2007, 06:09:56 AM
lot of people apparently do. That's why there's a movie minimod being made (I think..there was.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 16, 2007, 06:18:19 AM
lot of people apparently do. That's why there's a movie minimod being made (I think..there was.)

General note, however, to anyone interested:  The "Optional RCM" version will NOT be compatible with the movie mod (assuming it is still being worked on).  I have not discussed the possibility, because plate armor, if actually treated like plate armor, will be VERY hard to balance in the game.

I say "if treated like plate armor" ... did anyone notice that, in the movies, their plate armor was apparently as thin as auto body steel?  I mean, everything went right through it - arrows, crude swords, anything... didn't even have to be a solid blow.  What was that stuff made of?  Roofing tin? 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 16, 2007, 06:41:34 AM
Ok sorry I haven't read the book. But i think plate is a lot cooler.

If you like the movies, you should read the books if you get a chance; you'd be surprised how many things were left out and how many things were changed/made up for the movies. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: emperor77 on June 16, 2007, 06:54:15 AM
Still, the gondor helmets look a bit big and silly when worn with chainmail, i guess thats why they but plate in the movie.
But I don't mind that. Nice Rohan equipment BTW. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 16, 2007, 07:06:49 AM
Still, the gondor helmets look a bit big and silly when worn with chainmail, i guess thats why they but plate in the movie.
But I don't mind that. Nice Rohan equipment BTW. :)

Not historically ... consider what the Romans wore for helmets with maille coats for centuries.

Then again ... most people only know the Roman "lorica segmenta" (which was used for a rather limited period, actually) ... most would probably consider Roman helmets odd if worn with either the pre-Marius or late-period pattern Roman maille.

Europe always wore much heavier helmets than body armor.  This was somewhat reversed in eastern Asia.  Since Tolkien was mostly using a model based off of European equipment, it seems appropriate.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: emperor77 on June 16, 2007, 07:47:10 AM
Right, but i still think the helmets look better with plate, but its nice how it is right now.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Triglav on June 16, 2007, 08:36:54 AM
Right, but i still think the helmets look better with plate, but its nice how it is right now.

I think I thought the same as you when I first started working on this mod.

Though I had read the books, the image of the soldiers from the movies kinda stuck in my head and when I first played TLD mod (back when the orcs still had the skeleton model and were green  :lol: ) they did look a bit weird. I also missed the heavy plated uruk-hai.

But...after I was explained that the books don't mention any plate, which I didn't remember from reading them first, being the obsessive little cunt that I am, I went and read the books again. And what people here say, turned out true.

So then I went and thought about the strength of movie costumography's effect on the one's perception and came to a conclusion that as perceptions can be made, so they can be unmade. And for me, the TLD costumography, which does reflect the books rather truly, became the factor by which I now judge any LOTR imagery I stumble across.

Thus...nowadays Gondor helmets over Gondor chain don't look weird to me in any way...

Quote from: Ron Losey
I say "if treated like plate armor" ... did anyone notice that, in the movies, their plate armor was apparently as thin as auto body steel?  I mean, everything went right through it - arrows, crude swords, anything... didn't even have to be a solid blow.  What was that stuff made of?  Roofing tin?

Not only that, but strategy & tactics-wise, did anyone else notice the idiocy of Gondor's defence against the amphibious landing of orcs in Osgiliath? No approaches barricaded, no waterways blocked with sunk timber, just clear lanes with a bunch of guys who first hide behind pillars, let half of the disembarking orcs pass, then attack them, while forgetting about getting attacked in the back by other disembarking orcs. Two minutes later, everyone gets slaughtered, game over. And later there's a charge towards the walls of Osgiliath by a single line of cavalry. Even if we never mind the archers...what were they hoping to do once they reached the walls? Chisel at them with their spears?
How did Gondor last for centuries with such tactics in this movie is beyond me...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: emperor77 on June 16, 2007, 08:49:09 AM
Not only that, but strategy & tactics-wise, did anyone else notice the idiocy of Gondor's defence against the amphibious landing of orcs in Osgiliath? No approaches barricaded, no waterways blocked with sunk timber, just clear lanes with a bunch of guys who first hide behind pillars, let half of the disembarking orcs pass, then attack them, while forgetting about getting attacked in the back by other disembarking orcs. Two minutes later, everyone gets slaughtered, game over. And later there's a charge towards the walls of Osgiliath by a single line of cavalry. Even if we never mind the archers...what were they hoping to do once they reached the walls? Chisel at them with their spears?
How did Gondor last for centuries with such tactics in this movie is beyond me...

[/quote]Faramir thought that the orcs will attack from north, not across the river. They were not prepared for an attack from there.
And later, when mordor had overrun Osgiliath, Faramir only counter attacked because his stupid dumbass father ordered him to attack. Faramir himself thought that he would not survive that attack.

And BTW this is suggestions topic and everyone (including me  :)) should get back on topic.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 16, 2007, 09:16:00 AM
about the Gondorians letting some through, I think there were other soldiers behind them. If you watch Seven Samurai, they're using a similar tactics. They let some of the bandits in the village and then shut the entrance with pikemen. They do no damage, but keep the horsemen out and the men inside are easily cornered and slaughtered. Holding off the enemy while you divide his force and kill the smaller bunch is quite effective I think. (if you're outnumbered or with lower quality soldiers and equipment.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Triglav on June 16, 2007, 09:25:16 AM
about the Gondorians letting some through, I think there were other soldiers behind them. If you watch Seven Samurai, they're using a similar tactics. They let some of the bandits in the village and then shut the entrance with pikemen. They do no damage, but keep the horsemen out and the men inside are easily cornered and slaughtered. Holding off the enemy while you divide his force and kill the smaller bunch is quite effective I think. (if you're outnumbered or with lower quality soldiers and equipment.)

Sure, they must have wanted to do what the Seven samurai did. They just forgot the pikemen...

Either way, the approaches should be barricaded, sharpened stakes pointing outwards, the river clogged with fallen timber to prevent a smooth boat ride, elevated & flanking archery positions, mobile reserves to fill a possible breach, etc...

About emperor77's comment about where they expected an attack...well...they should have read Sun Tzu or any other strategy theoretician. You don't just sit and wait and hope the enemy attacks where you will surely win. You try to lure them to attack where your defence is strongest or most efficient. Think Thermopilae pass in the movie 300. You can defend well with a small but mobile force, by closing most approaches and channelling the enemy into the ones you leave open, as the Chinese did with the Great wall, which Ron can probably tell us more about.

The strategy in the books is not described in detail that much, so it leaves more to imagination. But the movie makers would definitely need a military advisor or two to avoid some of the silliness they showed.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DarthLlama226 on June 16, 2007, 11:20:04 AM
I was under the impression the Great Wall was built with the purpose of keeping barbarians out rather than channeling them into a specific spot.

About the "Seven Samurai" tactic: Faramir more than likely had more men further in the city. Rather than having a handful of men take on the entire ambush, I think it would make sense to keep your position secret, let a few enemies in for your back force to handle and ambush the rest. It's also a huge morale hit to the enemies. They run into this ruined city, knowing that the might of the whole army is but a few steps away, they turn around and see noone following them. As they are going "Wtf?" in their heads, they are ambushed by the rear force.

Still, I do believe that Faramir was stupid to not set up true defenses by filling the river with rubble, or having wooden palisades set up. Even if you don't think your enemy will go a certain way, still defend it. Otherwise it becomes a opening for your foe to exploit.

He did make the best of his mistake though.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 16, 2007, 06:24:33 PM
While we're on the topic of tactics and defensive positions (which could be good material for setting up certain scenes later), I'll add what I can.

First, the Great Wall in China was built to tax the trade routes.  It's not a military structure.  Anybody with a real strike force could take it, just by diversion (attack at one point, and when the defenders move down there to defend it, send your main force over the wall with ladders two miles down).  For a thousand years, China made money off of that wall, all the time telling everybody it was a military structure.  I don't believe it.  I've seen it, and if it was supposed to be a military structure, it surely wasn't much of one.

City walls are effective because they are circular.  The defenders can reach any point on the wall faster than the attackers can circle around.  (Also true of Soviet tank tactics - they always used circular deployment for the same reason.)  A linear wall is just asking to get clobbered.  Warriors and historians have known this for 4000 years, although politicians and draftees don't seem to catch on so fast.

Second, Triglav is right about the tactics.  (Triglav has seen war.)  When outnumbered, your best defense is to choke the narrow points ... force your enemy to fight you one-on-one.  The tactic in Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" was a different situation - the villagers had a huge advantage in numbers, but a weakness in training and equipment, so they had to divide the enemy force as a way to concentrate their numbers without letting the enemy support each other.  That's a lousy strategy if the enemy outnumbers you from the beginning.

Honestly, although he was a master storyteller, Tolkien was no strategist.  And the guys who made that movie were even less of strategists.  (Heck, they looked like the worst fight they ever saw was when the school bully took their lunch money back in 6th grade.)  The only good thing I can say about the movies was that at least the weapons worked ... swords and axes seemed to do some damage.  As stated earlier, their armor was apparently roofing tin, but you can't win them all, I guess.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on June 16, 2007, 06:29:22 PM
Ive seen the great wall. Lots of stairs, up and down. I think the idea is to tire everyone out. Beyond that I couldnt say.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 16, 2007, 11:44:04 PM
Ive seen the great wall. Lots of stairs, up and down. I think the idea is to tire everyone out. Beyond that I couldnt say.

Actually, the hills around Beijing will do that with or without the wall.  The stairs are probably better than climbing over loose rock.  A lot of China is pretty rugged terrain, and the Great Wall does a pretty good job of taking advantage of that.

But seriously, compared to a real fortification - say, the old city walls of Xi'an - the Great Wall looks almost like a mock-up or stage prop of some sort.

That was another problem with the LOTR movies - their forts appeared to have been designed by people who had never seen war before.  Walls were too thin, approaches were too easy, bridges and gates were too accessible, and the gates wouldn't keep a cow out ... I've seen better security around retirement communities.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stemmers? on June 17, 2007, 11:32:06 AM
That was another problem with the LOTR movies - their forts appeared to have been designed by people who had never seen war before.  Walls were too thin, approaches were too easy, bridges and gates were too accessible, and the gates wouldn't keep a cow out ... I've seen better security around retirement communities.

Yeah, I think I've got a retirement community that looks like Angband down the street.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Triglav on June 17, 2007, 11:52:00 AM
Yeah, I think I've got a retirement community that looks like Angband down the street.

And who knows what unimaginable evil lurks within...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dryvus on June 17, 2007, 01:22:25 PM
On topic: I would like to see the Rohirrim helms cover the neck more. Personally I think they would look a lot better. I've only played for Rohan so far so I'm not sure if Gondor's helms are the same.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stemmers? on June 17, 2007, 01:53:19 PM
Suggestion for balance: the raider units should be a lot less aggressive. Since armies can now "pile on" in a fight, those raiders stuck behind enemy lines charge into the nearest fight and get eaten alive when they attract every army in the area.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 17, 2007, 01:58:01 PM
On topic: I would like to see the Rohirrim helms cover the neck more. Personally I think they would look a lot better. I've only played for Rohan so far so I'm not sure if Gondor's helms are the same.

they look about right in proportions, but they could really use hair underneath. That would really improve the look. Modelling hair to helmets is tricky and wouldn't probably work very well though.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Snork on June 17, 2007, 03:07:36 PM
Suggestion: differentiate the special elven arrows (elven, woodelf, galadhrim) somehow. As far as I can tell, Woodelf arrows are more expensive than bodkin arrows, do the same damage, and weigh 3.5 pounds instead of 3.  Oh, and you get 1 more arrow per quiver. It'd be nice if they were worth using; even just a pound lighter and I'd use them.

Unless, of course, they are awesome in some other way that I'm overlooking?

Edit: they're great now in 2.3.1!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on June 17, 2007, 07:30:26 PM
They look BETTER b/c they are on your hip and not your shoulder.  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on June 17, 2007, 07:42:07 PM
When elven arrows miss, they continue on into the next battle scene and kill enemies there. Up to around 5 km.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on June 17, 2007, 08:18:47 PM
o rly? hax mb.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stemmers? on June 17, 2007, 08:53:42 PM
Elven arrows do +10 damage versus Spiders, Dragons, Nazgul, Werewolves, Oliphants, Ents, and the Balrog.  Dwarven/Hobbit characters can't use them unless they have a lock of Galadriel's hair.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Aethelred on June 17, 2007, 11:20:30 PM
The whole representation of Gondor was complete rubbish in the films. You really get the feeling the directors and writers didn't like Gondorians for some reason, they seemed determined to portray them in the worst light possible. They made Denethor a completely useless soft buffoon who hadn't even organised any defences. They didn't even give him a dignified death... making Gandalf basically kill him was bizarre. They even made the average Gondorian soldiers useless orc fodder despite their armour (which I thought was the most fake looking armour in the films, although apparently more of it was made of metal than a lot of the other armours).

And yes the military strategies weren't great... although it's possible that Faramir wanted to let some orcs through so the orcs wouldn't just shoot at the defenders from their rafts. Although being orcs they probably wouldn't care about killing their own side... But yes, he should have defended the openings better with archers firing on the orcs as they disembarked. I don't think the scene much thought though, it's only important to the film inasmuch as it shows how outmatched those useless Gondorians are. ;)

I like how far this thread has gone off-topic.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 17, 2007, 11:27:01 PM
The strategy thing was not off-topic.  Eventually, a lot of combat in urban areas is planned.  How the defenses are constructed and the defenders deployed is a very real consideration.  (A consideration that a certain set of movies screwed up pretty badly.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on June 18, 2007, 10:57:03 AM
Give us slightly more money when we start out. Right now, it's exceedingly hard to take the tiny amount of money and get a force up large enough to take down, say, 9 mountain goblins. Might be possible for the hippies, but for us orcs it's hard.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Elmar Bijlsma on June 18, 2007, 06:46:04 PM
Stupid question/suggestion.
Shields can degrade when completely destroyed during a battle, right? What effect has this on the special reward shields? Would kinda suck if they break and I can't replace it. Wouldn't mind shields being an unlimited supply item. Besides always having the best item condition possible, I wouldn't mind handing them out to my little band. Maybe I can get a look at the über pretty Elven shield other then from behind it.  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Aethelred on June 18, 2007, 08:12:12 PM
Couple of suggestions regarding Elves. As I said in the balancing thread I think Elf characters should start with MUCH higher attributes and abilities. On top of that I don't like the Lothlorien gear colour scheme. Blue seems inappropriate to me, I've always thought of Lorien colours being green and grey. You can hardly be camouflaged in the forest wearing bright blue and gold armour. ???
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on June 19, 2007, 12:22:58 AM
Give us slightly more money when we start out. Right now, it's exceedingly hard to take the tiny amount of money and get a force up large enough to take down, say, 9 mountain goblins. Might be possible for the hippies, but for us orcs it's hard.

I agree, or maybe the player could start with a 5 or 10 man recruit army.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 19, 2007, 01:44:35 AM
On top of that I don't like the Lothlorien gear colour scheme. Blue seems inappropriate to me, I've always thought of Lorien colours being green and grey. You can hardly be camouflaged in the forest wearing bright blue and gold armour. ???

Too bad. We like it. Play Mirkwood, they're grey and green.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 19, 2007, 02:45:07 AM
Couple of suggestions regarding Elves. As I said in the balancing thread I think Elf characters should start with MUCH higher attributes and abilities. On top of that I don't like the Lothlorien gear colour scheme. Blue seems inappropriate to me, I've always thought of Lorien colours being green and grey. You can hardly be camouflaged in the forest wearing bright blue and gold armour. ???

The gold armor is for open war, not for scouting. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Aethelred on June 19, 2007, 03:31:37 AM
Yes, well, even the Scouts wear a not-very-grey-or-dark blue. In any case the armour colour should reflect the culture which they come from. In any case the Lothlorien Elves do more forest fighting than open warfare against their first major enemies. Predominantly greyish with green would have been more suitable for both, blue and gold just looks too random fantasy-generated and ceremonial. Would be acceptable for Rivendell Elves, but not for their forest-dwelling cousins.

And I do wear largely Mirkwood gear, but it's not my gear that I see most of the time - it's that of my army and allies.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Pope on June 19, 2007, 04:16:08 AM
Can the 'hunt down bandints' and 'capture bandit leader' quests be removed from the evil sides? Most bandits seem to live in Gondor, making finding them quite a nuisance, and even when you do they're often in combat fighting alongside some of your factions troops. Waiting for them to finish killing some peasants so you can attack them is infuriating. Especially since sending the armies of Isengard and Mordor to protect Gondors peasants from bandits seems a bit nonsensical.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 19, 2007, 04:41:27 AM
Yes, well, even the Scouts wear a not-very-grey-or-dark blue. In any case the armour colour should reflect the culture which they come from. In any case the Lothlorien Elves do more forest fighting than open warfare against their first major enemies. Predominantly greyish with green would have been more suitable for both, blue and gold just looks too random fantasy-generated and ceremonial. Would be acceptable for Rivendell Elves, but not for their forest-dwelling cousins.

And I do wear largely Mirkwood gear, but it's not my gear that I see most of the time - it's that of my army and allies.

I had a grey version of their gear sometime ago (together with the gold parts), but we came to the conclusion it was too dull and boring. If we make them all green, well, that's not too interesting either, is it? I may try a more greyish color scheme sometime, but I think we'll keep the gold. Most people seem to like how they look.

Yeah, the grey didnt work iirc. I suppose we could use the warden browns on the scouts. If you work on it again, Id think in terms of a new bit of scouting armor and I can put the blue jerkin somewhere else.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Nahkis on June 19, 2007, 04:55:36 AM
Pope, you have an excellent point there. Why kill the brigands when they just rob the gondorian caravans?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 19, 2007, 05:02:07 AM
Well, the truth is the Brigands will rob anybody including Mordor caravans and whatnot.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Scrat on June 19, 2007, 07:35:35 AM
Well, the truth is the Brigands will rob anybody including Mordor caravans and whatnot.

This is a nice opportunity to bring up my question, will Brigands be a faction you can start out as? I'm not sure but this already could have been mentioned on taleworlds forums long ago. Like you say rob caravans, slow down "Good" and "Bad" parties and everything else. The lads who would do everything for the right price. As you all can see this would be a small party compared to others but it would give a little more variation to the already wonderfull mod!
Please give your thoughts about this one.

Eisenhouwer

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on June 19, 2007, 08:54:49 AM
I suggest getting a sheath for the sword of westerness  :D since it IS my fav sword and I want to do all i can to make it look better on me  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 19, 2007, 11:02:55 AM
The capturing thing is super annoying. It happens even when I win battles, and it happens way too often even when I have it set to seldom happen....

It's also virtually impossible for me to get them out.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ahadhran on June 19, 2007, 11:52:56 AM
One thing I would like to see is "surprise encounters" where you are perhaps suddenly attacked by a scouting party or a special group of enemies sent to get rid of  you. This would really break up the repetition of marching into enemy lands and slaughtering everything you see (not that that isn't fun too).

You can quite easily make the party be roughly the same size as yours to avoid frustration for starting characters. Or the chance of it happening could be tied to your rank in your faction. You could even do both.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on June 19, 2007, 05:21:10 PM
I think maybe ranged players should start with a little higher skill in their ranged weapon. Every ranged guy I've tried cant hit jack until I decide to cheat  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Pellidon on June 19, 2007, 05:47:55 PM
maybe they're not supposed to hit jack. the idea is to build up your soldiers until they get well-trained. the low level troops ar obviously going to fight like crap.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on June 19, 2007, 05:53:48 PM
I think maybe ranged players should start with a little higher skill in their ranged weapon. Every ranged guy I've tried cant hit jack until I decide to cheat  ;)

As long as the starting skill is >70 or 80 or so, it's fine (or if you can get it to >70 or 80 by weapon points). Guess what? When I start I can't kill much with my sword, and I can't take many hits with my armor. The idea is that you get better.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Pope on June 19, 2007, 07:27:53 PM
Well, the truth is the Brigands will rob anybody including Mordor caravans and whatnot.

If there were brigands anywhere near Isengard it would make sense, but there aren't. I guess Saruman must want them all dead so he can set up a trade route to the corsair camp. Then all he has to worry about is sending his caravans right through the middle of Gondor.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 19, 2007, 07:33:53 PM
Well, the truth is the Brigands will rob anybody including Mordor caravans and whatnot.

If there were brigands anywhere near Isengard it would make sense, but there aren't. I guess Saruman must want them all dead so he can set up a trade route to the corsair camp. Then all he has to worry about is sending his caravans right through the middle of Gondor.

Agreed.  As with any war, it might be better to assume that brigands and rogues would informally ally themselves with one side or the other.  That is, the brigands who raid Mordor caravans would seek asylum in Gondor, and vice versa.  Generally speaking, rogue groups usually side one way or the other, just for their own survival.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 19, 2007, 07:35:40 PM
Well, the truth is the Brigands will rob anybody including Mordor caravans and whatnot.

If there were brigands anywhere near Isengard it would make sense, but there aren't. I guess Saruman must want them all dead so he can set up a trade route to the corsair camp. Then all he has to worry about is sending his caravans right through the middle of Gondor.

that remark actually cracked me up :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on June 19, 2007, 11:55:42 PM
just somthing i noticed, im not ingame atm but i found my map of middle earth in the back of my copy of unfinished tales and noticed some map inconsistencies (emyn muil i think, i havent been in that area in awhile,) Actually lol thats all i could find, since i just realized you were only using the bottom half or so of mirkwood  :P
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: eyeballstew on June 20, 2007, 01:04:18 AM
Couple of suggestions regarding Elves. As I said in the balancing thread I think Elf characters should start with MUCH higher attributes and abilities. On top of that I don't like the Lothlorien gear colour scheme. Blue seems inappropriate to me, I've always thought of Lorien colours being green and grey. You can hardly be camouflaged in the forest wearing bright blue and gold armour. ???

The blue, sure...

...but Mallorn leaves are gold. See? Perfect camouflage! At least in the Autumn and Winter. I guess they could have seasonal armor...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 20, 2007, 01:19:26 AM
Well, if the elf was up on a tree with the blue sky behind him, the blue parts would work as camouflage too, heh. :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Nahkis on June 20, 2007, 02:13:22 AM
Well, if the elf was up on a tree with the blue sky behind him, the blue parts would work as camouflage too, heh. :lol:

What if the sky is grey? ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 20, 2007, 02:57:45 AM
Shock troops don't need camo.... not in ancient wars.  Only scouts and point-men really need to worry about it.  By the time you get close enough to engage shock infantry, camo isn't really much help.  If your scouts haven't picked up the enemy presence by then, the minimal gain you might get from camo clothing will not really help much.

Only since WWI has land war happened at enough range to make camo worthwhile for everyone.  Before then, loud flashy colors that scared the enemy and prevented friendly fire were more useful.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Aethelred on June 20, 2007, 04:02:45 AM
The fact that they aren't camouflaged isn't really the main issue, it's just too bright looking an armour for Lorien which doesn't fit with their culture, environment or known style of warfare, which seems defensive and involves stealth and ambushing of orcs lured into the forest. Of course in TLD Lothlorien's Elves act aggressively and so certainly some kind of brighter armour could be appropriate, but it should be reserved for top tier troops to reflect the time it takes from fighting enemies largely forests at the start (Dol Guldur and Moria) to going into offensive war in the South. Even for that the armour colours don't feel Lorien enough for me.

The scouts wear blue too so camouflage is definately an issue for them. Scouts should be wearing something greyish and the cloaks Galadriel presents the Fellowship with; they're described as the garb of their people so it's safe to assume that scout troops would be using them. Although cloaks always cause clipping problems through character's backsides and legs when moving, since there's no way to animate them.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 20, 2007, 04:38:03 AM
well, we had some golden scale with cloaks we're not using now (we could, it wasn't bad. Blade's retexture I think..)..
I agree the scouts could use something more stealthy :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 20, 2007, 05:00:22 AM
If the scouts had the grey cloaks over the leather jerkin, what they'd ware underneath the cloak wouldn't matter that much, would it? Like it didn't matter for the brotherhood, right? But we don't have cloaks in M&B.

I'll try to think of something new for them one of these days.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 20, 2007, 05:45:46 AM
well, not exactly cloaks in the "cloaking- hiding" sense, but the merchant's and noble's outfits sort of have cloaks..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 20, 2007, 07:21:34 AM
If the scouts had the grey cloaks over the leather jerkin, what they'd ware underneath the cloak wouldn't matter that much, would it? Like it didn't matter for the brotherhood, right? But we don't have cloaks in M&B.

I'll try to think of something new for them one of these days.

i for one love elven armor. scouts are mostly using wood colors anyways, and like someone mentioned infantry doesn't have a need for any camouflage.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on June 20, 2007, 07:23:34 AM
I really like the color scheme for lothlorien, I think it worked out really well for proper war gear.  The warden armor is nice sneaking armor.  Maybe eventually we could use another bit of stealthy armor for them but leaving Dablade to his own devices is usually best.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Aethelred on June 20, 2007, 10:28:38 PM
Well, enough about Elvish fashion...

I've a suggestion to make regarding the strategic war system. I said this before but I think it got swamped by other things me and people said. TLD should use the example of the Battle for Sicily strategic system. In Battle for Sicily, enemy parties going near their enemies' towns would get reported by that town, and armies of the town's faction would come over to find the enemy it reported. That sort of thing would be good for TLD, and would stop having your Great Host of Gondor farting about near Erech while orcs wreak havoc at Minas Tirith. The TLD version of this would have to be more complex though. A fault of the system in Battle for Sicily was that every single hero led party would respond to the call unless they were already responding to another alarm or on a siege mission. For TLD it would have to be only the parties close to the town, particularly for spread-out factions like Gondor. And if possible, great hosts should prioritise responding to other great hosts being spotted.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on June 20, 2007, 10:58:25 PM
AW said he was going to revamp the war system after his modding hiatus (sp.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on June 21, 2007, 01:44:32 AM
Nice simple suggestion.  When those messages pop up while you're in the map mode about some leader guy being killed in battle.  Just have in brackets what faction they're from so you don't have to worry that it's your leader who's been killed.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Oldtimer on June 21, 2007, 02:54:15 AM
Well, enough about Elvish fashion...

I've a suggestion to make regarding the strategic war system. I said this before but I think it got swamped by other things me and people said. TLD should use the example of the Battle for Sicily strategic system. In Battle for Sicily, enemy parties going near their enemies' towns would get reported by that town, and armies of the town's faction would come over to find the enemy it reported. That sort of thing would be good for TLD, and would stop having your Great Host of Gondor farting about near Erech while orcs wreak havoc at Minas Tirith. The TLD version of this would have to be more complex though. A fault of the system in Battle for Sicily was that every single hero led party would respond to the call unless they were already responding to another alarm or on a siege mission. For TLD it would have to be only the parties close to the town, particularly for spread-out factions like Gondor. And if possible, great hosts should prioritise responding to other great hosts being spotted.

Hi,

here I`d like to again bring up an idea of mine submitted long ago.

It`s abt. supply/reinforcement routes. Hosts and maybe patrols should be assigned to "bases" i e cities. The bases would be supplied to some extent from the capital and  would themselves supply "their" units  by way of supply and reinforcement trains.

Operations against these trains would, if successful, impair the fighting capacity of the field units relying on them. Increasing desertion, lowering morale, inducing attrition due starvation/illness upto dissolution of the whole unit if the route is totally cut for a period of time.

Regards, Oldtimer
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on June 21, 2007, 03:27:38 AM
Hi,

here I`d like to again bring up an idea of mine submitted long ago.

It`s abt. supply/reinforcement routes. Hosts and maybe patrols should be assigned to "bases" i e cities. The bases would be supplied to some extent from the capital and  would themselves supply "their" units  by way of supply and reinforcement trains.

Operations against these trains would, if successful, impair the fighting capacity of the field units relying on them. Increasing desertion, lowering morale, inducing attrition due starvation/illness upto dissolution of the whole unit if the route is totally cut for a period of time.

Regards, Oldtimer

Nah, at least in our world, the whole "supply lines" thingie didn't happen until very modern times. Armies lived off the land, or starved. However, It would be neat if hosts sent out foraging parties, and if these were prevented from rejoining the host, it would begin to starve. That's more close to the way starving out enemy armies was done IRL.

I do however like the idea of reinforcement parties regularly sent out to beef up hosts.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: andhar on June 21, 2007, 04:12:03 AM
Two suggestions:
1)  :idea: about option of "historical" ending:
after a given number of days, Isengard main host - eventuallyfaction itself - is vanquished from Ents rampage;
after some more given days, frodo throws the One ring in Orodruin, and Mordor goes down to its the lowest strenght. But these two countdowns would NOT start unless you get some decent victories/high rank killing/faction weakening and similar (that is, allowing ents to attack and frodo to enter mordor). Still you'd have to cope with the minor factions allied with the previous ones, so even so things wouldn't go on exactly authomatically... and you still have to reach it! The baddies, on the contrary, should fight for winning AND to prevent all this to happen - so if they go down, they risk such a sudden end, or you could have chances for this as long as they keep staying weakened. Important: countdown is Zeroed if they regain strenght..
2)  :idea: I find strange in M&B that battles last eons, allowing others to join (and that's right) but you coming freezes time not allowing others to join - so it prevented a easterling army to join the attack, although it was clearly it intention... couldn't it be that, within a given distance, troops who were moving towards the battlefield to join can actually join as reinforcement? Time keeps freezing, but it makes things looking more real. Would it be possible?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 21, 2007, 02:34:36 PM
i've mentioned it before, is there any chance of that happening? i would love a unique named horse for my Rider!

"1. Horses: special reward horse for Rohirrim - méaras (been discussed in Sep on TW) and Asfaloth for Glorfindel."

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: julii on June 21, 2007, 03:01:42 PM
-Why there are no Dwarfs?
 
-And elves could have effective horse archers but there is even no mounted elf fighters it is really so hard to play with elves.

-And we could search for the ring of sauron during the game there is no words about that ring
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 21, 2007, 03:17:27 PM
-Why there are no Dwarfs?
 
-And elves could have effective horse archers but there is even no mounted elf fighters it is really so hard to play with elves.

-And we could search for the ring of sauron during the game there is no words about that ring

- because they can't be made right now.
- we decided to not have horse archers. Wouldn't fit the elven style.
- the ring just as the fellowship aren't in the mod. So you can't kill them or take the ring for yourself. You're a soldier in the war, not one of the storie's main characters. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 21, 2007, 03:32:39 PM
Oh yes, there are great elven horse archers in Rivendel ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 21, 2007, 03:34:26 PM
Oh yes, there are great elven horse archers in Rivendel ;)

there are? umh..:) I really haven't played the elves much..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 21, 2007, 03:37:22 PM
If I remember it right, Rivendel sentinels get horses when they get to the last tier.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 21, 2007, 04:02:53 PM
It would be nice if spears and shiels were hung in ways that they don't obstruct archery. I have a hell of a time seeing.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on June 21, 2007, 05:05:44 PM
From what I read the noldor used horse archers but I figured the tradition would be pretty rare by now. There are some elven horse archer troops better than the rivendell knights but I wont give it away.

As for the war system suggestions, I do read them. Im just not focused on that atm.  .808 was really the version that allowed for complex and effiicient war routines. Hopefully the next one will be even more interesting.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 21, 2007, 05:07:11 PM
Oh yes, there are great elven horse archers in Rivendel ;)

Or at least they will be when the next bugfix comes out.  (2.3.1 still has no horses for sale in anywhere except Gondor and Rohan.)

------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:

Unrelated question:

Would some Tolkien experts try to conclude what the difference between horses and wargs should be, in terms of speed and maneuver?  For the RCM version, I modeled them similar to horses, except with high charge value to offset their lack of armor.  (I based the charge value on the North American coyote, who has an attack pattern of slashing at a target's legs with his fangs in passing.  Increased damage from a charge, as it were.)  Still, I would like to know if Tolkien ever mentioned if the great wolves should be faster, slower, more maneuverable, or whatever.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 22, 2007, 04:08:06 AM
ast they've been balanced before, we decided on huge charge, very high maneuverability and acceleration. They would be fast, but not as fast as the fastest horses. Also armor shouldn't be low 'cause of their thick hide..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 22, 2007, 04:46:15 AM
ast they've been balanced before, we decided on huge charge, very high maneuverability and acceleration. They would be fast, but not as fast as the fastest horses. Also armor shouldn't be low 'cause of their thick hide..

Well, that sounds about fair.  I know what they were rated. (I'm looking at the code.)  I cut into the maneuverability (relatively speaking - the RCM model uses numbers roughly double the native ones anyway) ... got it back down near the horses.  I rated them more armor than any unarmored horse, but still lower than horses who were wearing actual man-made armor... similar to the ratings given to leather jerkins compared to maille.  (I tried to extrapolate that from the actual canines I've killed over the years, multiplied by what would happen if they were the size of a grizzly bear.  Again, Tolkien's wargs may have supposed to be tougher than just big dogs ... it's been too long since I read the books.)  I may have overdone it on the charge, however - it's higher than any horse (although only a little over heavy armored warhorse, really).  Compared to what they were (relative to the native horses), I think I nerfed them a bit.

I ask because a group of Moria riders just blew through my Elven scouts plus misc. others like they weren't there.  That was on poor combat AI.  I don't think my troops managed to bring down a single one of them before being torn to bits.  I was afraid, even after cutting them back a bit, I still overdid them. 

It was lousy terrain to repel cav with archers anyway.  Maybe I just bit off more than I could chew ... easy to do with the RCM mods.  Easier than usual with this one, I'm afraid.

When the RCM version releases, anybody who has a strong background in Tolkien is highly encouraged to test them extensively and get back to me on balance.  This is one of those elements that I can't really get from any known point of reference.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Aethelred on June 22, 2007, 05:23:15 AM
From what I've read, wolves can run at 40mph for quite a few miles. Given that a warg is bigger and magical, but factoring in that it's carrying an orc which it's really not suited to do, I reckon the speeds talked about for the RCM mod are fine - I'd guess it about as fast a slower horse. Not actually tested the wargs yet though, I'll have a go at them with my elven archer character.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 22, 2007, 06:43:43 AM
From what I've read, wolves can run at 40mph for quite a few miles. Given that a warg is bigger and magical, but factoring in that it's carrying an orc which it's really not suited to do, I reckon the speeds talked about for the RCM mod are fine - I'd guess it about as fast a slower horse. Not actually tested the wargs yet though, I'll have a go at them with my elven archer character.

He's going after them with elf archers...   :-\

He's Purina Orc Chow (TM).   

I'll wait for the half-time show, to find out what happened....  ::)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 22, 2007, 07:25:14 AM
for wargs I found out the deadliest enemies are gongorian spearmen in the ranks. The wargs got butchered and I lost like...one man..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 22, 2007, 08:05:01 AM
for wargs I found out the deadliest enemies are gongorian spearmen in the ranks. The wargs got butchered and I lost like...one man..

yeah Gondor is well equipped to deal with Wargs and riders of Harad and Easterlings. their infantry just mows them down like it's nobody business, especially with some archers to finish them off. plus Gondor's cavalry is actually pretty good too. I always play with Rohan and never have any footmen, other than occasional rescued Gondorian/dunedain units.
are fealaf riders worth upgrading to? i never branch my Rohirrim towards infantry.

and Merl or Blade, how hard would it be for me to insert my own méara, with an existing mesh? i would price it at something silly, but it would be the best horse in the game, with high charge, armor and speed, i feel spirited heavy Rohirrim mount is not quite enough for my hero.  :P


Ron: as for Wargs, since there is no way in-game to reflect their intelligence (they were capable of speech after all) maybe their manouverability needs to stay high compared to horses.




Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 22, 2007, 08:12:42 AM
the high maneuvreability is must have, it's what makes them so hard to hit..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 22, 2007, 08:27:00 AM
For balance issues on the Wargs, check out the RCM version (as soon as AW releases it, likely along with the 2.3.2 patch).

RCM already uses numbers on the horses about twice what native has ... so an increase in maneuver that high will cause programming problems.  (They would turn a 360 every time you touched a key.)

But play with what I did come up with, and see how it flows.  The combination of truly high charge damage, slight armor, and stats in the range of decent horses makes them pretty deadly.  Likely stronger than anything except high-end armored horse, and then it's close as to which one is actually the most combat-effective.  I'm afraid to make them any tougher ... afraid it will make them the ultimate weapon if I do.

But check them out first ... then get back to me on it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Deored Eirik on June 22, 2007, 08:55:54 AM
I have read Tolkien's works many times, and re-read the battle between the fellowship and wargs in The Fellowship of the Ring.
   Wargs are intelligent, but were not capable of human speech, they could only talk to eachother. In dealing with them, Orcs were forced to speak their language (the Hobbit). Also, their skin was little tougher than an average horse's might be. Refer to the Silmarillion, in which Mablung uses a simple hunting knife to slit open the belly of Carcharoth, a warg that was three times bigger than any latter-day warg, and which was bred and sorcerized by Morgoth (for those who don't know, if Sauron was bad, Morgoth was his Master. Yikes.). No thick skin there.
   As far as they go as tough fighters, one well-aimed arrow kills any warg in the books, and that does not mean only in the throat or brain. From all the evidence, wargs have low pain tolerance, and would be rendered either incapacitated or uncontrollable by any deep wound. And those would not be hard to accomplish; Boromir cut the head of one completely off with one blow. This while it was charging him. It is also thoroughly stated that HOBBITS had a great effectiveness against wargs, in that Fellowship battle inferredly, but stated clearly when it is mentioned that Great (i.e. larger) White wargs invaded the Shire in the Fell Winter, only to be soundly defeated by the hobbits, who had no official army, nor a vast store of weaponry.
   My point is this; wargs were essentially large wolves with a little more brains (read the episode in the hobbit where Gandalf burns some, and they all run lighting eachother on fire), not an especially thick hide, nor a great toughness. As far as agility goes, they were that, but remember that they bear riders in TLD, and no matter how maneuverable they are, they have to make sure that the rider stays on. Executing a 90-degree turn at full run is ridiculous. Perhaps if you made them VERY agile ONLY when they slow down first.
   This is my research.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 22, 2007, 09:18:16 AM
A 'simple hunting knife' that could cut iron without being dulled! You can also cut an elephant's hide with a knife if it's kind even to stand still as you saw away.

You can also cut the head off a normal human with one blow, but not in this game.  A normal wolf has quite a thick hide, nothing at all like a horse.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on June 22, 2007, 11:43:19 AM
I'd suggest to give even the youth type troops a small shield. It doesn't make sense that Gondor can afford to equip their recruits with swords but not shields, and it's also a senseless waste of manpower for a nation so badly outnumbered by it's foes. Actually, I'd take away swords from recruits and let them have axes, spears or falchions instead (cheap weapons). If you really wanted to, noble youth could be represented by a separate troop type, which is low level but relatively well equipped and upgrades to a standard troop type (ie Gondorian Young Noble -> Gondorian Squire).

Being from rich families, theyd' have a horse, a sword, a shield and maybe a mail shirt.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 22, 2007, 01:16:23 PM
I'd suggest to give even the youth type troops a small shield. It doesn't make sense that Gondor can afford to equip their recruits with swords but not shields, and it's also a senseless waste of manpower for a nation so badly outnumbered by it's foes. Actually, I'd take away swords from recruits and let them have axes, spears or falchions instead (cheap weapons). If you really wanted to, noble youth could be represented by a separate troop type, which is low level but relatively well equipped and upgrades to a standard troop type (ie Gondorian Young Noble -> Gondorian Squire).

Being from rich families, theyd' have a horse, a sword, a shield and maybe a mail shirt.

good and reasonable suggestion.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Deored Eirik on June 22, 2007, 01:42:14 PM
The knife used to cut open Carcharoth's belly was not Angrist. It says that Mablung took "a knife". No indication that it was Angrist. As to a knife cutting through the hide of an elephant, you may be right, and I would then consider myself corrected.
   
One thing I might suggest apart from RCM; their seems to be a slight overbalancing between orcs and elves in TLD. Namely, orcs tend to overpower the elves, as most orcs are supplied with shields, and elves are mainly archers. Of course, this makes perfect sense, as no one in their right mind (orc or no) would charge archers without protection if shields were available. So perhaps this might be altered; orc shields might be made much weaker, so that four or five arrows might shatter them. Alternatively, have basic shields made more standard for elves, so that when they are attacked, they have reasonable defense. Again, no one in their right mind (elf or no) would NOT use a shield when one was available, and is anyone going to argue that orcs had more shields than elves?   


Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on June 22, 2007, 02:34:10 PM
Two things to solve this problem

1) Have the archer AI shoot for the legs or head when the enemy has a shield

2) Give the higher level orc troops bigger shields. I don't want my Fell Orcs getting wasted in droves before they even get close to the target.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Pellidon on June 22, 2007, 08:19:07 PM
more a suggestion for people who play the mod than the developers.
i don't know about all of you guys, but i've always had trouble thinking of cool gondorian names for my character, so i searched on google and found a great website about gondorian names (and probably other languages are on here as well)
i figured, other people might find this useful. here's the link:
http://www.realelvish.net/gondorian_names.php
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: julii on June 23, 2007, 05:33:58 AM
Hey I really wonder why mounted wolfs and wargs doesn't attack when their riders are down; they could attack anyone else nearer (friend or foe) like a real wolves right? Cos it is in their nature they are wild and huge and free without rider they must attack it would be cool if there is some unmounted wolves disturbing their own flanks or nime as well 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 23, 2007, 05:48:24 AM
Hey I really wonder why mounted wolfs and wargs doesn't attack when their riders are down; they could attack anyone else nearer (friend or foe) like a real wolves right? Cos it is in their nature they are wild and huge and free without rider they must attack it would be cool if there is some unmounted wolves disturbing their own flanks or nime as well 

they would attack. Sadly, we can't make them to.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Saber on June 23, 2007, 02:25:19 PM
Since the very development of TLD, I've always been stunned by the work you guys provided. What I love about TLD is not the complicated economy system or formations or whatever, it's just that climate. I mean dang. If you don't feel that climate, just check some concept art by Merlkir and go play TLD :).

Suggestions? I dare not give any. Apart from adding the dwarves in, the game is almsot perfect. But if anything is to be changed.

I think there still need to be some balancing issues on Gondor/Mordor struggle. I'm leaving the jugdement to Tolkienist loyalists, because realistic fighting does not apply to the fantasy world.

Personally I feel that apart from adding the Oliphants and improving on Trolls, adding dwarves etc, it would be cool if a sort of sea related theme would be added. So fighting those bloody pirates of Umbar would be more exciting.

Also about some units. I love the pikeman of Umbar(Reminds me of Hoplites and the comparison of Umbar to Greek states), but the haradrim infantry is a little bit plain. Same applies to the corsair raiders.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 23, 2007, 02:39:57 PM
- thanks. :)
- dwarves, trolls, oliphants - that's the future of TLD I hope (maybe even with the next MaB version)
- sea theme? well, I suggested including Yoshi's naval battles, but that's not likely to happen. But I agree having some sort of marine/pirate stuff going on would be cool (I actually suggested marines a while ago..)
- yeah, umbar pikemen are cool ;)
- Haradrim got a huge facelift in this version. Hopefully, I will force myself to finish my infantry ideas and force others to make them in the game ;)
- I haven't really given corsairs much thought, but I'm sure we can figure something out to spice them a bit more..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 23, 2007, 02:45:00 PM
Yeah, some of the older designs need a facelift. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on June 23, 2007, 03:20:53 PM
A thought... the random men's villages in the North are brilliant for elven players (provide a really effective meat shield as they're purchased normally until one can build up a large enough force of elven troops) but is having the woodmen as being Neutral correct in terms of Tolkien? As far as I remember the woodmen fought against the enemy alongside Mirkwood elves in the battle beneath the trees.. not sure about the others (Northmen being neutral seems a little odd as well.. but I don't know about them)

Also.. would Beornings (yes I know they can't skinchange and I'm not asking for it) be present in that village? Could be an interesting new unit type.

On the subject of Elven towns... I infinitley prefer them to other towns (look great and everything is easily accessible) but would it be possible to show the function of all the different merchants as ATM they all look identical? Somthing like sticking props related to their service behind them.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stratusfear on June 23, 2007, 03:52:47 PM
Ive seen that its already been mentioned but i think osgiliath if possible should be a 'siegable town' I would like to see it start out as gondorian and when reaching level 10 (and the great war beginning) it could be taken over by mordor. Im not sure if non-player armies would be able to capture a town but if so it would be nice to see gondor and mordor continually laying siege to it. Also im guessing its possible to have a gondorian garrison, traders, lord (faramir maybe) when it belongs to gondor and those traders garrison and lord to change to orcs when it is taken.
Apart from that my only suggestions are mainly asthetic ones:
-More piratey looking equipment for corsairs, maybe the hats from yoshiboys pirate mod could work?
-A slight facelift for the old harrad heads with the tribal designs, i really like the new ones. (also id like to see the 'tribal' designs on the black skin for the far harad tribesmen)
-Trolls and olog-hai slight facelift: already mentioned
-pointy ears for elves and orcs! as seen in fantasy mod: although thiers is a bit OTT  :lol:
-wargs purchasable from isengard and mordor if only the primary town - i know its been planned/mentioned anyway but it bugs me having to travel to moria each time
-Not sure if this is possible - wolf sounds for warg mounts, howls, panting, growling, barking as opposed to galloping and neighing. Also can it be changed so it was mount takes X damage rather then horse takes X damage?
-perhaps a slight facelift for wargs but thats just being picky  :P its just that my wargs dont look nearly as impressive as the rohirrim horses
-new orc helms with same stats as uruk-hai helm and uruk hai captains helm but ones that fit normal orcs better (also mentioned)
-I wouldnt mind a new head with an eyepatch. I love corsairs AYE AYE!

Thanks
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on June 23, 2007, 04:10:19 PM
I think I'd kill someone if they gave the corsairs 17th century gear...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Albino on June 23, 2007, 04:16:18 PM
- sea theme? well, I suggested including Yoshi's naval battles, but that's not likely to happen. But I agree having some sort of marine/pirate stuff going on would be cool (I actually suggested marines a while ago..)

Didn't you suggest something Pelargir marines?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 23, 2007, 04:17:25 PM
I think I'd kill someone if they gave the corsairs 17th century gear...

seconded. That's gonna happen over my dead body.

The Osgilliath one is probably planned anyway. Wargs can't have new sounds yet.

- sea theme? well, I suggested including Yoshi's naval battles, but that's not likely to happen. But I agree having some sort of marine/pirate stuff going on would be cool (I actually suggested marines a while ago..)

Didn't you suggest something Pelargir marines?

yeah, I think so..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on June 23, 2007, 04:22:12 PM
Personally I think that aside from a few more troop types and prehaps random corsair raids from the sea somehow.. there's no real point in sea battles ATM.. there's other things which'd be far more exciting.. I mean sea battles are just going to be 2 ships firing arrows at each other and then boarding... and since there's still the horse issue as far as I know... I think I'd be right in saying horses are far more important to TLD than Ships.. I mean the only navies about would be Umbar and Gondor.

Thinking some more about little niggling oddities.. Halbarad... being lord of a Gondor city? Shouldn't he be up in the north (Would be nice to have a Dunedain hero to add to the Lorien, Rivendell and Mirkwood heroes)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stratusfear on June 23, 2007, 04:24:07 PM
Yeah i agree that tricorne hats from yoshi's mod is a bad idea but i wasnt meaning that. I was just meaning a larger corsair wardrobe, im pretty sure tolkien was never specific about corsair clothing so that leaves it pretty open. i sure as hell dont wanna see corsairs dressed like jack sparrow either, i would just like to see more corsair specific headgear (and other gear) other then the shell plate helmet (which is really nice btw).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on June 23, 2007, 04:28:31 PM
Thing is I can't see any of the stuff in Pirates fitting corsairs.. their current look is rather nice I think.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 23, 2007, 04:37:02 PM
Thing is I can't see any of the stuff in Pirates fitting corsairs.. their current look is rather nice I think.

I think he means more variety in general. I'm fully for that..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 23, 2007, 04:45:26 PM
Thing is I can't see any of the stuff in Pirates fitting corsairs.. their current look is rather nice I think.

I think he means more variety in general. I'm fully for that..

i'd love more variety, although TLD already has far more of different look to troops and factions than many mods bunched together...

i'd like some more Haradrim/Easterling variety.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 23, 2007, 04:54:28 PM
I'd like to have 10 times more people making models and textures! :P
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 23, 2007, 05:04:18 PM
I'd like to have 10 times more people making models and textures! :P

i hear ya blade :D you've done awesome work, and some of your stuff is downright incredible - we're talking pro level, therefore us nornal people not as artistically gifted want more of it  ;)

i am actually learning how do texture, so far all i ever did is sketch/draw.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 23, 2007, 05:37:23 PM
There's lots of great new stuff by Triglav, octoburn, Merlkir and Stefano. ;)

I just started making textures a few years ago, and I'm still learning. Photoshop is not that hard once you start getting the hang of it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 23, 2007, 05:47:21 PM
There's lots of great new stuff by Triglav, octoburn, Merlkir and Stefano. ;)

I just started making textures a few years ago, and I'm still learning. Photoshop is not that hard once you start getting the hang of it.

oh yeah, Merl knows that i'm his biggest fan  ;), Triglav's stuff (new Rohan helmets and such) is great as well.

i used Photoshop a lot before for things like photo editing (duh) and wallpapers so i have some basics. plus a guy that works for me is an expert and can teach me tricks. i could never get into 3d stuff but since i am half decent at drawing i figured texturing should not be too hard and far removed from my neck of the woods.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 23, 2007, 10:24:10 PM
Here's a thought.  Since NPC characters can lead armies and get killed, with or without the player's involvement....  Is there a system to respawn NPC's? 

If a town loses its lord, how long should it take to replace him?

Also, if the game drags on with no clear winner, we don't want all the named characters to completely vanish.  That would really take the edge off of the experience.  The new ones can be a downgrade from the originals, but there still should be somebody.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stratusfear on June 24, 2007, 04:54:12 AM
On a different note I think mordor and isengard should have small armories same as rohan and gondor, I'm aware that they already get trolls, olog-hai and worgs thats why i suggest small armories with only slightly better then average equipment, mainly to add a little more excitement for us people who love to be bad  >:D
Ideas
-Cruel Whip: increases riding by x, leadership by x and prisoner management by x
-Slightly buffed black numoreon equipment for mordor
-Slightly buffed 'artifact' weapons for isengard (Dunnish Warlords Battle-Axe of Old etc)
-Perhaps some 'Cursed' equipment which buffs one stat but takes from another such as +2 shield, +1 Power Strike, -6 HP etc

cheers, Strat
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 24, 2007, 04:55:39 AM
On a different note I think mordor and isengard should have small armories same as rohan and gondor, I'm aware that they already get trolls, olog-hai and worgs thats why i suggest small armories with only slightly better then average equipment, mainly to add a little more excitement for us people who love to be bad  >:D
Ideas
-Cruel Whip: increases riding by x, leadership by x and prisoner management by x
-Slightly buffed black numoreon equipment for mordor
-Slightly buffed 'artifact' weapons for isengard (Dunnish Warlords Battle-Axe of Old etc)
-Perhaps some 'Cursed' equipment which buffs one stat but takes from another such as +2 shield, +1 Power Strike, -6 HP etc

cheers, Strat

Mordor and Isengard have armory items ... if they're working.  If not, it's a bug report.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stratusfear on June 24, 2007, 05:17:53 AM
nevermind im just blind, not sure how i managed to think they didnt have armouries lol
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 24, 2007, 07:35:48 AM
 :D actually, the items you described are there!  :green:

thanks for the kind words btw.
We can always use more graphic workers (eh..bad term :D). The problem is to achieve a consistent style. More people have more ideas, and if they agree on one, they have different styles of doing things. We do have too. Blade has extremely clean work, great with ornamental stuff. Triglav can quickly put tons of good stuff together and it looks just ok and believable ;) I...I know Photoshop quite well, but sometimes I get too serious with a single texture. So it's messy, dirty and very very custom. So it doesn't feel like an ordinary item ;) That's why I rather stick to the concept art. If there's something I want to do myself, I at least give it a try. (ehm ehm..Octo still probably hates me for not finishing that helmet ;) Also my lorien shields were a bit of a failure :D) Luckily, there are few items or graphic features in TLD I feel like they don't belong there. I can't even mention one right now. ;)

edit: I forgot Stefano! damn! :D he's just incredible, I want to have his babies ;) He's a pro modeller and texturer. It's a pity he's not here more often, TLD would be much much prettier if he'd make more stuff for us :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on June 24, 2007, 05:43:55 PM
An option to turn "hero capture" off, as opposed to simply changing the probability.

I for one find it a less than amusing addition to the mod. I can see how it would be a fine feature with futher development, but at the moment it simply adds frustration. IMO, of course.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ardryn on June 24, 2007, 06:12:09 PM
Apologies if this has already been suggested/implemented but, it would be neat if lords weren't always killed, but instead had a chance of being captured, at which point you could get a mission to rescue them.

?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 24, 2007, 06:23:41 PM
Apologies if this has already been suggested/implemented but, it would be neat if lords weren't always killed, but instead had a chance of being captured, at which point you could get a mission to rescue them.

?

umm... this is already in... which version are you playing?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Albino on June 24, 2007, 06:28:11 PM
An option to turn "hero capture" off, as opposed to simply changing the probability.

I for one find it a less than amusing addition to the mod. I can see how it would be a fine feature with futher development, but at the moment it simply adds frustration. IMO, of course.

Isn't that already in? The old man at the brigand fort can change that, I believe. Or can he only make it less likely?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ardryn on June 24, 2007, 06:40:11 PM
I meant the lords that lead hosts, but I guess I've just been lucky. As every lord that led one died when the host expired.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 24, 2007, 06:43:45 PM
I meant the lords that lead hosts, but I guess I've just been lucky. As every lord that led one died when the host expired.

they also get captured...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Aethelred on June 24, 2007, 08:45:41 PM
Here's a thought.  Since NPC characters can lead armies and get killed, with or without the player's involvement....  Is there a system to respawn NPC's? 

If a town loses its lord, how long should it take to replace him?

Also, if the game drags on with no clear winner, we don't want all the named characters to completely vanish.  That would really take the edge off of the experience.  The new ones can be a downgrade from the originals, but there still should be somebody.


It's possible, Battle for Sicily had such a system that was a little more complex. All NPCs that were killed would be replaced by another randomly named NPC, the more complex part being that the replacement NPC didn't just inherit the dead lord's fiefs - those were available for reassignment to other lords as well, including the player, depending on their influence. It wasn't an immediate decision either, not sure all the considerations the script took into consideration to decide when the vacant lordship would be re-awarded. If I remember rightly sometimes it would be instant, other times the lands would lie vacant until someone was deemed worthy of them.

Of course the problem for TLD would be that people know the characters more, so lords would have to be succeeded by their proper successors - and if they die too then they also need replaced by a proper successor. It'd also be faction specific. I can imagine it would be difficult to script, but certainly possible. I'm sure something like that will have to be added at some point.

By the way if a lord goes into battle, does he ever go back home again? Celeborn's gone into the field very early on for me, I don't fancy his chances of surviving the war. :-\
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on June 24, 2007, 09:00:50 PM
Less Tree's in the wood battles
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on June 25, 2007, 12:19:43 AM
Less Tree's in the wood battles

I love the battles in the woods.

Personally, I wish there were more woods and less open plains.

4/5 of the game takes place in open ground, so it is great that the other 1/5 take place in the woods.  These battles are hectic and it a great change of pace from the endless rolling hills and open plains.

- Livonya
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Albino on June 25, 2007, 12:45:24 AM
Less Tree's in the wood battles

They can't change how many trees there are. Nevermind I believe fisheye even made a mod so there is no more trees and shrubs. Eh, I bet its moddable.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Scrat on June 25, 2007, 02:39:15 AM
Less nature filled maps around Isengard and the volcano areas. Some volcano mountains or burned down forests would be a lot better. (my opinion) Because I don't have the feeling I'm fighting great evil with all that nice green around their base. You could implant bonuses or penalties (depending what side) when figthing on these kind of battle maps.

(or is this something they only had in the movies and not in the books?)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on June 25, 2007, 06:43:25 AM
An option to turn "hero capture" off, as opposed to simply changing the probability.

I for one find it a less than amusing addition to the mod. I can see how it would be a fine feature with futher development, but at the moment it simply adds frustration. IMO, of course.

Isn't that already in? The old man at the brigand fort can change that, I believe. Or can he only make it less likely?

I only saw options to make capture more or less likely.

IMO all such features should have a option to disable them.

If I missed such an option through stupidity then please ignore me!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 25, 2007, 07:34:51 AM
No, he's right ... the capture option is only a "more likely" or "less likely".  Even with "less likely", it's annoyingly common.  It will be a much bigger deal for those using the RCM version, because the odds of you going down suddenly are greatly increased - and therefore the odds of your team being wounded or captured also increases exponentially.  (Also true of the "wounded" settings.)


Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on June 25, 2007, 09:07:12 AM
I wouldn't mind if the rescue missions were fun, but as it stands they are an exercise in frustration, especially considering that any allies you take will get killed or (the joy) captured, and the fact that slow healing rates make your guy useless for a day or two afterwards.

Anyway, enough grumbling on that aspect.

Although AW has said that he isn't going to touch the war mechanism for the moment I must say that the changes introduced by .808 (namely slow healing rates and multi-battles) fundamentally alter the gameplay in TLD, and that an effort to balance the mod should be the true priority IMO.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 25, 2007, 09:36:38 AM
Here's a thought.  Since NPC characters can lead armies and get killed, with or without the player's involvement....  Is there a system to respawn NPC's? 

If a town loses its lord, how long should it take to replace him?

Also, if the game drags on with no clear winner, we don't want all the named characters to completely vanish.  That would really take the edge off of the experience.  The new ones can be a downgrade from the originals, but there still should be somebody.


It's possible, Battle for Sicily had such a system that was a little more complex. All NPCs that were killed would be replaced by another randomly named NPC, the more complex part being that the replacement NPC didn't just inherit the dead lord's fiefs - those were available for reassignment to other lords as well, including the player, depending on their influence. It wasn't an immediate decision either, not sure all the considerations the script took into consideration to decide when the vacant lordship would be re-awarded. If I remember rightly sometimes it would be instant, other times the lands would lie vacant until someone was deemed worthy of them.

Of course the problem for TLD would be that people know the characters more, so lords would have to be succeeded by their proper successors - and if they die too then they also need replaced by a proper successor. It'd also be faction specific. I can imagine it would be difficult to script, but certainly possible. I'm sure something like that will have to be added at some point.

By the way if a lord goes into battle, does he ever go back home again? Celeborn's gone into the field very early on for me, I don't fancy his chances of surviving the war. :-\

Yes, it would be nice if they would return home after a week or so. 

In fact, I think that makes sense for all the lsser and greater hosts...head back in for resupply if they are not embroiled in combat.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on June 25, 2007, 09:43:10 AM
I wouldn't mind if the rescue missions were fun, but as it stands they are an exercise in frustration, especially considering that any allies you take will get killed or (the joy) captured, and the fact that slow healing rates make your guy useless for a day or two afterwards.

Anyway, enough grumbling on that aspect.

Although AW has said that he isn't going to touch the war mechanism for the moment I must say that the changes introduced by .808 (namely slow healing rates and multi-battles) fundamentally alter the gameplay in TLD, and that an effort to balance the mod should be the true priority IMO.

You might consider investing in the 3 healing skills early on.

I find that combat skills aren't as important early on in TLD.  I really think it pays to invest in INT skills.  

I usually put all my starting points into INT and then for the first 5 levels I invest in more INT and spend all my skill points on healing skills, leadership, and weapon master.  For the first 8 levels of the game I let my troops do most of the fighting and I worry about supporting them.  Then once the war starts I worry about my combat skills.  

And whatever you do don't waste NPC skill points on support skills.  The NPCs really need combat skills more than you do.  

Don't be in a rush to get to the war started.  Take your time.  Build up a small army, and get your NPCs better trained.

In any event, if you plan for the war it will be a lot easier.  I really think TLD is a lot different than Vanilla in the fact that party skills really matter.

- Livonya
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 25, 2007, 09:48:27 AM
I wouldn't mind if the rescue missions were fun, but as it stands they are an exercise in frustration, especially considering that any allies you take will get killed or (the joy) captured, and the fact that slow healing rates make your guy useless for a day or two afterwards.

Anyway, enough grumbling on that aspect.

Although AW has said that he isn't going to touch the war mechanism for the moment I must say that the changes introduced by .808 (namely slow healing rates and multi-battles) fundamentally alter the gameplay in TLD, and that an effort to balance the mod should be the true priority IMO.

You might consider investing in the 3 healing skills early on.

I find that combat skills aren't as important early on in TLD.  I really think it pays to invest in INT skills. 

I usually put all my starting points into INT and then for the first 5 levels I invest in more INT and spend all my skill points on healing skills, leadership, and weapon master.  For the first 8 levels of the game I let my troops do most of the fighting and I worry about supporting them.  Then once the war starts I worry about my combat skills. 

And whatever you do don't waste NPC skill points on support skills.  The NPCs really need combat skills more than you do. 

Don't be in a rush to get to the war started.  Take your time.  Build up a small army, and get your NPCs better trained.

In any event, if you plan for the war it will be a lot easier.  I really think TLD is a lot different than Vanilla in the fact that party skills really matter.

- Livonya

The problem is that if you have a character like that (I always do) then the recapture missions become impossible....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: jefz on June 25, 2007, 10:30:14 AM
I've enjoyed the rescue missions, but I'm not particularly pleased that the Pathfinding skill has become a necessity for every character I make now.  Rather, I think the stealth aspect might be more accurately represented by a simple formula taking into account a character's 1-[Agility] and 2-[the Total Weight of the Gear being worn/carried].  Those are really the two qualities that would make Rangers more stealthy, not their skill at navigating through forests and streams.

I generally prefer to play commander-type characters.  Perhaps if my character (as a commander) could task Mablung (my outrider and tracker) to lead the rescue (where I would play *as* Mablung for the rescue)?  That might work, but it's probably not possible with the M&B engine.

Honestly, it's doesn't really make much sense for Denethor to task me with a stealthy rescue if I don't (seemingly) possess any aptitude for infiltration (which is the Pathfinding skill, apparently).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on June 25, 2007, 10:45:27 AM
I think the existential questions such as why anyone asks anyone else to do anyting in a game are beyond the scope of the mod.  :lol: I dont remember the war of the ring resting on one soldier's shoulders, let alone an infiltration of minas morgul.

But the players pathfinding isnt everything. You bring high pathfinding troops with you and it all averages so those you bring can cover for your lack of experience to a degree.  Glorfindel does that pretty nicely. Just making one high patfhinding npc and going with him alone will get you a decent bonus as there are penalties for larger groups and bonuses for smaller groups. Assuming you are a decent fighter.

If you arent very stealthy or good at fighting, you just have to bring a full complement of men and try and hack through.  Waiting for a lax garrison is also a good idea in that case.  Commander-types would naturally have the additional slots to keep a few stealth capable troops around for this purpose.

Ive lowered the chances quite a bit for the patch and added a "very low" option. I think it was set higher for testing.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on June 25, 2007, 12:47:56 PM
Please just give us an option to turn hero capture off. At the moment there isn't much point taking heroes when you are low level because you get downed so often that someone always ends up in prison eventually.

Sorry AW, but the recues just are not fun IMO. The random factor of "garrison alertness" means that most of the time it isn't worth trying, while the huge casualty rate of a failed attempt can be crippling.

Besides which while you are away trying to rescue people (and recovering your health and party strength after the inevitable failure) your Great Hosts are being gang-raped and your faction subdued.

Character development is central to my enjoyment of the game, and no doubt to many others, and this just arbitrarily takes that pleasure away. Now I just don't bother with recruiting heroes. When Ulfas eventually gets captured he'll be my last hero character other than my PC.

I don't know whether a mod can play with healing rates, but they could do with a tweak IMO or , if at all possible, and Old Man option. For those suggesting that I take the healing skills well I have (and do every time) and they are all currently at level 6. But I still spend far too much time waiting to be healed.

The customisation offered through the Old Man is a highlight of the mod for me - the more options there are available the more you can tailor the game to your own needs. My suggestion is to expand on those options so that players can play the game they want to. You already have the Legions of Mordor option running which, according to the player's wants and abilities, can be set to off, full or anything in between. This is, IMO, the ideal situation. The only downer is that these options must be set in stone right at the beginning, but I guess this is a restrcition with M&B.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: jefz on June 25, 2007, 01:49:11 PM
Does the Pathfinding skill actually control detection during the scout/hiding phases?  Or does Pathfinding just increase the likelihood of bypassing certain phases entirely?  For example, would a 10 in Pathfinding jump me directly into the final dungeon phase?  Would a Pathfinding skill of 10 allow me to stay in the hiding-spots and not be detected?

Even with the alert-status on "Level 0" the orcs often walk up to me in the hiding spots and take swings at me, but the alert-status doesn't escalate.  I've found the trick is to fight/kill them while remaining within the hiding-spot.  If another guard does get close, he'll see the body even in a hiding spot.

I probably just need to understand the stealth system more thoroughly, but I did have a lot of fun making it through the mission.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 25, 2007, 01:56:43 PM
Hiding spots?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on June 25, 2007, 02:10:41 PM
I think your stealth rating (determined with pathfinding and other stuff) does act as a savings throw against the overall alarm going up when you are spotted. Beyond that it doesnt do much in the stealth level itself. Its more a meta thing to see how far you get before the scenes start and how many guards and what type you might face.  It wouldnt be hard to rig it into your detection radius I wont do that for the patch though.

In general you dont want the fights to go on very long. You want to move through asap and preferably with little notice on the stealth levels.  If you get dinged enough, youll have a tougher time ahead.

But nothing is a guarantee, there is obviously randomization built in.  Anyone can have a bad day.

EDIT--dont want to say too much. heh.

 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 25, 2007, 02:33:28 PM

I don't know whether a mod can play with healing rates, but they could do with a tweak IMO or , if at all possible, and Old Man option. For those suggesting that I take the healing skills well I have (and do every time) and they are all currently at level 6. But I still spend far too much time waiting to be healed.


mine are at 4 and i find downtime very minor, i hardly rest in the tavern. must be that you lack patience.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stemmers? on June 25, 2007, 02:52:23 PM

EDIT--dont want to say too much. heh.


Okay, okay, but at least tell us this: does the armor you're wearing make a difference?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 25, 2007, 04:41:38 PM
On an unrelated note, the loot seems a bit light.  It's almost impossible to build up a character early-on, and tough to get replacements for your army, when you hit five or six enemy scouts (who had armored horses, full armor, and decent weapons) and get back one cracked helmet and two sticks.  You can't even replace your casualties for that.

Granted, I'm testing the RCM version, and casualties tend to be a good deal higher ... but still...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on June 25, 2007, 06:15:43 PM

I don't know whether a mod can play with healing rates, but they could do with a tweak IMO or , if at all possible, and Old Man option. For those suggesting that I take the healing skills well I have (and do every time) and they are all currently at level 6. But I still spend far too much time waiting to be healed.


mine are at 4 and i find downtime very minor, i hardly rest in the tavern. must be that you lack patience.

Possibly, but with wound treatment 6 I currently regain approximately 25% hitpoints over-night in a tavern.

Edit:

I too would like some clear information about how to undertake the stealth missions, if only to find out what I'm doing wrong.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on June 25, 2007, 08:10:40 PM
Well first of all, if a hero gets captured nothing says you have to drop everything you are doing to run after him( leaving your hosts to get gang raped). If you have something more pressing then you should do it. Your party should be able to function without a hero here and there and you can rescue them when you have some free time. That being said, the missions are hard for a reason. You are after all breaking into capital cities in a time of war in an attempt to free prisoners of war from a deep dungeon. What do you want? It isn't going to be easy. People have given many different approaches to the missions but there are two main ones: Go light or go Heavy. If you want to try to have little attention brought to you, then simply go alone or with a very small party at a time when the enemy is lax. Or, go with as many people as you can and hope to chop through the gaurds as fast as possible. There you have it. Of course, the real anwser to your problems (since you hate the missions so much) is to not let them get caught in the first place.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on June 25, 2007, 08:33:47 PM
Ah, "not let them get caught". Sound advice. If it wasn't random then I could do just that. Besides which I'm fully aware that you don't have to rescue them, my dudes have been in there for weeks since my last attempt! Finding and protecting your Hosts is a full time occupation - even doing one of the standard missions is a risk.

Anyway, this is derailing the suggestions thread, so I'm done.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on June 25, 2007, 08:54:48 PM
Rescuing prisoners is hard the first time, but once you learn the ropes it isn't too bad.

Much easier if your character is a foot soldier, much harder if your character is a horse rider.

I took along 9 rangers and I managed to rescue my 2 heroes with no deaths.

I had to play through the rescue about 5 times just to understand what was going on and what was possible and what wasn't possible.

But now that I understand the mechanics I think I can do it again and again without too much trouble.

The learning curve was certainly steep.  No doubt about that.

My suggestions:

1) carry a shield (be a distraction so your men can flank the enemy)
2) be very defensive, and try to flank as much as possible
3) use your men as distraction
4) don't even bother attempting the rescue if the guards are paying attention (read opening statement when starting the rescue)
5) running away is a valid strategy

Most of these suggestions are obvious if you have played at any length as a foot soldier.  I really think M&B plays very, very differently on foot than on horse.  I have finished TLD 3 times as a pure foot soldier, and defensive play comes naturally now.

Cowering behind a shield is sometimes the most effective way to help your men.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I love the rescue missions.  Briliant.  Loads of fun.

Thanks once again for such a fantastic mod!

- Livonya

PS:  And, though I do enjoy these missions, I can see why some people might want the option to turn them off.  I would rather see an option to turn them off rather than having them watered down due to complaints.  Leave them hard, but allow people to avoid them if they so choose.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on June 26, 2007, 12:54:17 PM
Certainly. If hero death can be turned off then the capture should also be able to get turned off for those not fond of the missions.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on June 26, 2007, 01:50:54 PM
you can turn capture off... hero death off... alot of stuff you can turn off..... old man is your friend. Brigands fort, only there for one day. use it if you please.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on June 26, 2007, 02:03:48 PM
No, currently you can't turn off the hero capture. You can only set it to low.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 26, 2007, 04:59:02 PM
No, currently you can't turn off the hero capture. You can only set it to low.

Which is, in essence, not particularly low.  When the RCM version (which some of us have been testing) comes out, and the odds of going down suddenly become much greater, "low" does not particularly translate to low.

"Off" should be an option.  "Extremely low" should also be an option ... say 1% chance or less - it could happen, but it would be a rare and major event.

Although I have not tried them yet (got tied up fixing some items for ONR), I fear the rescue missions with the RCM version will be very nearly if not impossible.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on June 26, 2007, 05:26:03 PM
Ron -

I have played to level 20+ in Onin No Ran, and personally I don't think the RCM version will make these rescue missions that much harder. 

I actually think it will make it easier provided you are using a shield, and not trying to solo.

RCM for Onin No Ran is quite hard, but this is mostly due to the lack of shields.  No defence against projectiles other than a quicker offense is extremely hard and can seem random at times.

The rescue missions are largely one enemy at a time (when doing the solo part), and on the other scenes where there are multiple enemy units if you have proper back up then the enemy units should fall faster.

Granted, I am just speculating, as I have not played RCM with TLD but my experience with RCM is that the game is actually easier provided you play smart and don't try to go solo.

The problem I have with the resuce missions currently is that it takes too long to kill the enemy units.  With the RCM I should be able to kill them much faster, which should solve some of the problems of getting swarmed.  Faster killing means more time in a defensive position which minimizes the chance of a random arrow or random swing taking me down.

Time will tell.

RCM for TLD will be very, very different than in ONR. 

It seems to me that a lot of people play M&B as a great hero that dominates the battlefield.  RCM forces you to play differently, which sutes me just fine.  I tend to play as a foot soldier so dominating the battlefield is never a reality until level 20+ and even then death can come quite suddenly.

Anyway, looking forward to trying it.

- Livonya
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 26, 2007, 05:40:46 PM
Yes, well, the detail you missed is that, especially playing as men, those orc mail coats can get REAL tough.  Less of a problem from horse, as a fast pass from horse will cut about anything that's stationary.  The orcs use axes to counter the heavier armor, but axes are slow.  It's very tough to play from the ground, and not easy to win unless your side has a pretty noticeable advantage in numbers and/or equipment.

What's different from ONR is the large number of relatively heavily armored infantry.  That sort of throws a wrench in the dynamic of combat being faster (unless you're talking about the time until you die).

I'm rather afraid I created a monster with this one.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on June 27, 2007, 12:35:43 AM
Well, to test the rcm, I cheated a foot guy to level 20, and during the course of testing I had a guy captured. It took me two reloads before I got him. The hardest scenes were the ones where you encounter a patrol and the last one, as you get swarmed. I  did it alone, however, and used a 2h axe. I'll try it without cheats on the orc side once I get done looking for stuff on the good side. I would like to see another even more reduced option for capture chances though, but it is a very sweet little mission

PS: Ron, that Galadrim royal bow is pretty strong, but its oh so much fun (Headshot! 345 damage!)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Aethelred on June 27, 2007, 09:56:57 AM
It's best to be a good archer for doing stealth type missions - on the ground nothing kills faster than a headshot. With RCM you can shoot them in the feet as they come for you and kill them in one hit, regardless of if they're using a shield.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on June 27, 2007, 11:35:24 AM
Suggestion for the stealth missions; given that the orcs have excellent night vision and poor day vision and humans the opposite, wouldn't it make sense for the stealth missions to be performed by day, at least by the Man factions?


I actually thought about this when putting the last touches on it but decided against a time reversal.  I decided the orc vision wasnt perfect at night either, its just that the sun is disorienting to them in a variety of ways. Its also hard for me to imagine that it isnt better to approach a place in the dark than at night when dealing with longer ranges at least. The lack of vibrant color alone helps. Finally I decided that there were usually evil men around these places too, as well as other odd critters. Night just seemed best. Time reversal wouldnt be hard but I think Ill leave it as is for now.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on June 27, 2007, 11:53:31 AM
I am not sure if I would consider this a suggestion, or just a comment.

I like playing as beasts, but it is really difficult to play at night.  While the orcs might have a slight advantage at night, I personally have a hard time at night as I can't see all that well, even as an orc.  So I end up avoiding night time combat just like I would when playing as one of the good races.

I sometimes find myself wishing that night wasn't actually all that dark.

This is especially true in the bloodmatch fights that only take place at night.   It would be nice if there were some torches in the arena at night to add some light.

I guess I should just change my settings on my monitor when I play as an orc.

- Livonya
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on June 27, 2007, 12:29:01 PM
If it was possible to change vision and colors in some way to account for orcish/elven night vision that would be great (so that the player too can see well in the night when playing those races).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Aethelred on June 27, 2007, 01:34:12 PM
Regards the stealth missions, while it makes some sense that they're done at night, I don't think the orcs should carry torches.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Wagrim Nelethain on June 27, 2007, 03:44:50 PM
I want Ringwraith armors and swords which we can take with influence.
I want Ringwraith horses .


(http://www.a2armory.com/images/lotr/ringwraith.jpg)


(http://comhair.planetthesims.gamespy.com/images/tkLOTRNazgulHorse.jpg)
(http://www.clantemplates.com/renders/gallery/data/thumbnails/44/Nazgul_Horse_Color_300dpi.jpg)


(http://www.thak.ca/images/lotr/ringwraith_1.jpg)

(http://www.mwart.com/images/p/Helmets_War_Helm_of_the_WitchKing__UC1457_2877.jpg)


RINGWRAITHS PWNZ
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on June 27, 2007, 03:59:41 PM
Ah, the one thing this great mod lacks: plate armour! I wonder why no one has ever suggested that before?  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on June 27, 2007, 04:41:03 PM
Wagrim Nelethain, ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Elara on June 27, 2007, 05:53:12 PM
I want a feature to ignore posts asking for plate armor.

More seriously, I'd love to see more development of the "small ally" factions -- it seems to me that the bad guys have a bunch (Moria, Dol Guldor, Easterlings, Harad, Corsair, Dunlending) but the good guys really only have a few (two elf and one dunedain) and they're ALL stuck far away from everything.

It's really depressing when you have lesser hosts of the corsairs, haradrim, and easterlings along with great hosts of isengard and mordor and a couple of legions attacking your poor Great Host of Gondor.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on June 27, 2007, 08:14:26 PM
Well, thats prett much how it is supposed to be in the books is it not? It has been discussed before that playing the free peoples can be the most challenging. Besides, there are all of those little neutral factions lying about the place.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 27, 2007, 09:42:19 PM
Yeah, and anyway the auxila running around now are a great feature.

But xxx the fat really needs a fat armor suit :lol:

Bolgar the fat? I forget, now....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 27, 2007, 09:51:48 PM
Yeah, and anyway the auxila running around now are a great feature.

But xxx the fat really needs a fat armor suit :lol:

Bolgar the fat? I forget, now....

Forlong, and i agree with you Bryce  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boosh on June 27, 2007, 11:28:33 PM
I recently grabbed the rohan "sword of old/famous sword" thing. It's a beautiful texture but the sword itself looks way out of proportion to me. I'm wondering if it might be better, based on the fact that there already is a sword of westernesse that the player can get, if that ancient Rohirrim sword was scaled down and turned into a super-fast one-hander or short sword. Of course, it's just a suggestion. I don't remember reading about this particular sword in the books, is it in the lore?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Bloid on June 28, 2007, 08:14:37 AM
The only named Rohan swords in the book are Herugrim (Théoden's) and Guthwine (Éomer's).

Since Gondorians are Dúnedain too:

"They spoke together in soft voices, at first using the Common Speech, but after the manner of older days, and then changing to another language of their own. To his amazement, as he listened Frodo became aware that it was the Elven-tongue that they spoke, or one but little different; and he looked at them with wonder, for he knew then that they must be Dúnedain of the South, men of the line of the Lords of Westernesse." - The Two Towers

The current Dúnedain units should be renamed "Arnor ____" or " ____ of the North".

If this was going for 100% fidelity to the books, the Dunlendings shouldn't even have armor except gear salvaged from Rohan and supplied by Isengard (from Unfinished Tales, I think).  But they're fine. :green:

An option to to go back to the Man-Beast-Elf selection screen, preferably at all screens before one goes into the skill allocation screen, would also help.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 28, 2007, 09:15:27 AM
yeah! Forlong craves his suit of fat chainmail! :D and a black kickass (which I forgot to design :() helmet, no less!
Lossarnach dudes are my favourite. (and not only because I textured them ;) :D)


The dunnish are truly a bit too much armored...but I love them now :) And wait until you've seen my new berserker doodle I've drawn at work today..He's totally naked except a wolf skin and a helmet ;) :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on June 28, 2007, 09:21:43 AM
I WANT RINGWRAITH STUFF WHICH CAN BUYABLE WITH INFLUENCE POINTS FROM MORANNON.

-Please.


you already posted this... and you must realize, by now, that this is NOT a movie mod. plus even though this time you actually said please, you need to work on your manners methinks...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 28, 2007, 09:56:06 AM
I WANT RINGWRAITH STUFF WHICH CAN BUYABLE WITH INFLUENCE POINTS FROM MORANNON.

-Please.


uhm. yeah, we know you want that. Some other people do. But it's probably not going to happen. And posting it again won't make it happen either.
Maybe in the movie mod if Chilly ever continues to work on it again.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 28, 2007, 09:59:58 AM
Eh, just ban him already. 90% of the people banned here have had 1/10 the reason for getting the ehave ho.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Bloid on June 28, 2007, 10:07:50 AM
 Orc and troll bloodspray should be black as in the 300 mod. However, doesn't that mod make everyone have black bloodspray?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Awesome Possum on June 28, 2007, 10:08:35 AM
So, I read through the suggestions and bugs and I'm pretty sure I didn't see anything about the hairstyles that seem to be a staple part of .808. I'm surprised that I didn't and I can't imagine that I'm the first person to comment on this. Did they fail to manifest when this mod was carried over to .808? Will they be added in or is there a simple method that someone can link me to as to how to do it? I don't doubt that I'm in for a rude awakening in regards to this question, but at least I didn't say "p---- armor". Great mod in any case. This and Calradia at war are keeping me up past midnight...all the time.

Ive never really played .808 vanilla. I didnt even know there were new hairstyles. Ill look at hooking them up.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 28, 2007, 10:11:06 AM
Orc and troll bloodspray should be black as in the 300 mod. However, doesn't that mod make everyone have black bloodspray?

not possible to have two different types of blood yet. Nor in the next MaB version. (I should know, I made the blood in 300 ;))

So, I read through the suggestions and bugs and I'm pretty sure I didn't see anything about the hairstyles that seem to be a staple part of .808. I'm surprised that I didn't and I can't imagine that I'm the first person to comment on this. Did they fail to manifest when this mod was carried over to .808? Will they be added in or is there a simple method that someone can link me to as to how to do it? I don't doubt that I'm in for a rude awakening in regards to this question, but at least I didn't say "p---- armor". Great mod in any case. This and Calradia at war are keeping me up past midnight...all the time.

true, I forgot to mention this. I would love to use the new hairstyles for myself. Or to differ the races in TLD too.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Chilly5 on June 28, 2007, 10:25:34 AM
Maybe in the movie mod if Chilly ever continues to work on it again.
And I will get to continuing it eventually.
Actually school ended for me, and I have a pretty open summer. I have nothing planned today, I might resume work today, I only need to collect the models and get them in for a first release (that is, after native TLD stabilizes in patches). The only model I could really use is the uruk-hai plate armour, and I havent heard from Dain about the rigged gondorian plate armour.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on June 28, 2007, 01:14:33 PM
ach.. I'm more inclined to work on stuff for TLD proper if anything.

Another thoughts.. when making requests to Gondorian lords, the option to recruit vet versions of their own troops.. Vet fiefdom troops, vet ithilien rangers etc..

I think Dol Amroth does this. Ill probably get around to the others at some point.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 28, 2007, 02:19:46 PM
The movie mod is a stupid idea anyhow. What is the point???

Any moron on the planet can change out a couple of the models to plate armor instead of chain in about 5 minutes.

I just wish someone would do so and post the damn text fiels as a mini mod for download.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Silver on June 28, 2007, 10:13:09 PM
As someone mentioned a while back, the ability to go back in the selection menu for race and faction would be really nice... Adding a first choice of sides would also be nice, as not everyone knows which side all things are on.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: RacerX on June 29, 2007, 01:46:20 AM
I recently grabbed the rohan "sword of old/famous sword" thing. It's a beautiful texture but the sword itself looks way out of proportion to me. I'm wondering if it might be better, based on the fact that there already is a sword of westernesse that the player can get, if that ancient Rohirrim sword was scaled down and turned into a super-fast one-hander or short sword.

I second that. (needn't be super-fast though I think ;)) In the same vein I think the bow of Folca shouldn't be a longbow. Since the Rohirrim used their bows from horseback imho it would be more fitting for it to be a kind of riding bow or recurved bow.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on June 29, 2007, 06:35:47 AM
I preferred the .751 model Sword of Westernesse myself - it was big, meaty and distinctive. The new one is a superior model but lacks "weight" and individuality.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on June 29, 2007, 08:38:47 AM
I've been thinking a bit more about TLD starting... I think that the following might be a cunning plan

Start off. Create your character etc. After you've done that, you're spawned into a scene where there is the old man and a trainer. No idea what sort of form this scene would take.. could just be a random landscape of middle earth. Or somthing. Choose your options from the old man, choose either training (for New M&B players, I'm sure some go straight into this mod) or just the option to go straight to level 2. After you're done, you return to the "choose your starting location" menu and voila, no need to cheat or walk all the way to the brigand fort.

Just a thought anyway.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 29, 2007, 10:02:35 AM
I've been thinking a bit more about TLD starting... I think that the following might be a cunning plan

Start off. Create your character etc. After you've done that, you're spawned into a scene where there is the old man and a trainer. No idea what sort of form this scene would take.. could just be a random landscape of middle earth. Or somthing. Choose your options from the old man, choose either training (for New M&B players, I'm sure some go straight into this mod) or just the option to go straight to level 2. After you're done, you return to the "choose your starting location" menu and voila, no need to cheat or walk all the way to the brigand fort.

Just a thought anyway.

Better yet, just have the old man fins you as you wander around, on a trigger. It is very easy to do - just call (start_map_conversation, "trp_old_man"), in a trigger.

This mod is basically unbearable to me if the war doesn't start on day one, so I always have to find him...which totally negates the purpose of starting in the various locations.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Chilly5 on June 29, 2007, 10:05:30 AM
ach.. I'm more inclined to work on stuff for TLD proper if anything.
Okay, I understand I guess.

The movie mod is a stupid idea anyhow. What is the point???

Any moron on the planet can change out a couple of the models to plate armor instead of chain in about 5 minutes.

I just wish someone would do so and post the damn text fiels as a mini mod for download.
Bryce, what's with the sudden flaming?
I'm pretty sure that you know that the movie mod is more than just replacing some chainmail with some native plate armour.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 29, 2007, 10:22:27 AM
I preferred the .751 model Sword of Westernesse myself - it was big, meaty and distinctive. The new one is a superior model but lacks "weight" and individuality.

I agree the Aragorn's sword looks a bit too thin :( But the old one was just...too fantasy for my taste. I'll probably design one myself, I've had some thought about it recently .)

Bryce: hm, I don't agree. It's worth making. And if Chilly is the man to do it, kudos to him. Majority of the people who are asking for the changes are in fact total noobs. They really can't make it themselves.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on June 29, 2007, 11:06:52 AM
I preferred the .751 model Sword of Westernesse myself - it was big, meaty and distinctive. The new one is a superior model but lacks "weight" and individuality.

Hi, first of all, great mod, debt of gratitude, blah blah blah.

It's struck me that there are no special pole arms.  It seems that there should be a special Lance available from Edoras, and/or a halberd or something the Bad Guys.  Just so folks can reasonably specialize in that skill and have something nice to look forward to.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on June 29, 2007, 11:11:38 AM
ach.. I'm more inclined to work on stuff for TLD proper if anything.
Okay, I understand I guess.

The movie mod is a stupid idea anyhow. What is the point???

Any moron on the planet can change out a couple of the models to plate armor instead of chain in about 5 minutes.

I just wish someone would do so and post the damn text fiels as a mini mod for download.
Bryce, what's with the sudden flaming?
I'm pretty sure that you know that the movie mod is more than just replacing some chainmail with some native plate armour.

I feel it's a waste of time because all you can do is reskin the game, basically.  Otherwise you would need your own source. If you want to make the movie stuff because it's fun then that's cool for you, but it would be nice if someone just threw the dark plate out somewhere for the whiners. You have been talking about the movie mod for like a year now, and still no release....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 29, 2007, 11:12:43 AM
It's struck me that there are no special pole arms.  It seems that there should be a special Lance available from Edoras, and/or a halberd or something the Bad Guys.  Just so folks can reasonably specialize in that skill and have something nice to look forward to.



ehm..yeah! :D I think so too. Damn. I'm pretty sure it crossed my mind before, but I probably forgot about it. Good one.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Chilly5 on June 29, 2007, 11:39:59 AM
ach.. I'm more inclined to work on stuff for TLD proper if anything.
Okay, I understand I guess.

The movie mod is a stupid idea anyhow. What is the point???

Any moron on the planet can change out a couple of the models to plate armor instead of chain in about 5 minutes.

I just wish someone would do so and post the damn text fiels as a mini mod for download.
Bryce, what's with the sudden flaming?
I'm pretty sure that you know that the movie mod is more than just replacing some chainmail with some native plate armour.

I feel it's a waste of time because all you can do is reskin the game, basically.  Otherwise you would need your own source. If you want to make the movie stuff because it's fun then that's cool for you, but it would be nice if someone just threw the dark plate out somewhere for the whiners. You have been talking about the movie mod for like a year now, and still no release....
Well, I apologize for the inconvenience but I'll admit I am an avid procrastinator.
I also have greater priorites in my life than M&B modding.
And as I have said, there's not much point in doing some quick text-file editing at this time as TLD is still pretty buggy.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on June 29, 2007, 12:34:51 PM
I've been thinking a bit more about TLD starting... I think that the following might be a cunning plan

Start off. Create your character etc. After you've done that, you're spawned into a scene where there is the old man and a trainer. No idea what sort of form this scene would take.. could just be a random landscape of middle earth. Or somthing. Choose your options from the old man, choose either training (for New M&B players, I'm sure some go straight into this mod) or just the option to go straight to level 2. After you're done, you return to the "choose your starting location" menu and voila, no need to cheat or walk all the way to the brigand fort.

Just a thought anyway.

Better yet, just have the old man fins you as you wander around, on a trigger. It is very easy to do - just call (start_map_conversation, "trp_old_man"), in a trigger.

This mod is basically unbearable to me if the war doesn't start on day one, so I always have to find him...which totally negates the purpose of starting in the various locations.

Aha! This is a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel. Yes.. that sounds a very elegant solution... then possibly have a trainer in the capital of every race.. with their own unique slant on it...  though I find training very tedious it is useful for new players to learn the core gameplay... I tend to either scrape to level 2 via a few easy quests or ... cheat. But it'd eliminate the need trek from the north to reach the brigand fort or teleport.

I'll revoice some suggestions earlier which got lost in the general discussion about Corsairs and artwork..

A thought... the random men's villages in the North are brilliant for elven players (provide a really effective meat shield as they're purchased normally until one can build up a large enough force of elven troops) but is having the woodmen as being Neutral correct in terms of Tolkien? As far as I remember the woodmen fought against the enemy alongside Mirkwood elves in the battle beneath the trees.. not sure about the others (Northmen being neutral seems a little odd as well.. but I don't know about them)

Also.. would Beornings (yes I know they can't skinchange and I'm not asking for it) be present in that village? Could be an interesting new unit type.

On the subject of Elven towns... I infinitley prefer them to other towns (look great and everything is easily accessible) but would it be possible to show the function of all the different merchants as ATM they all look identical? Somthing like sticking props related to their service behind them.

Thinking some more about little niggling oddities.. Halbarad... being lord of a Gondor city? Shouldn't he be up in the north (Would be nice to have a Dunedain hero to add to the Lorien, Rivendell and Mirkwood heroes... not to mention the option to be a man who has his allegiance in the north..)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boosh on June 29, 2007, 02:01:38 PM
The special pole-arm reward sounds like a good idea. What about a reincarnation of Aiglos? It's thrust attack would do pierce damage, but side swipes would do blunt damage.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on June 29, 2007, 10:12:24 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by reincarnation, if you mean the same spear.... probably not, since it would be strange to have such a powerful weapon given to you. (thats like giving A random Gondorian Anduril)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boosh on June 29, 2007, 11:41:45 PM
By reincarnation I meant a spear that was as feared as Aiglos. Something crafted by the elves made of durable, but light wood, with a long razor sharp tip.

I also wondered if it might be possible to retexture some of the long "norman" type shields into Gondorian shields. Something about those Norman shields makes me think "Shield wall."
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 30, 2007, 02:19:26 AM
I also wondered if it might be possible to retexture some of the long "norman" type shields into Gondorian shields. Something about those Norman shields makes me think "Shield wall."

If I remember it right, Triglav has made a Gondorian teardrop shield for the lower tier squires and shit. Don't know if it got in the game. I like how the norman shields are a bit of exclusive to the elves right now..


Repost from other thread:

The only thing I would love to see (and is doable in MaB) in TLD is the shiny reflective water shader Yoshi has in Pirates. Really helps the map a LOT! HW has attempted to do it, but somehow it seems oddly different, maybe Raz forgot about something.

AW: just ask Yoshi how to do it ;) It would be really nice to have.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on June 30, 2007, 06:19:24 AM
I tried it before the release and didnt like it. Well, I was 50/50, the water would come up with odd effects now and again though (might have been my gfx card). It would also require a redo of the ford icon, with which it currently clashes.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 30, 2007, 06:39:01 AM
AW: regarding the formations, did you put in the script which allows the AI to form up on its own? (I mean your enemies...)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on June 30, 2007, 06:43:52 AM
No, theres nothing like that in there. It wouldnt be hard, I can imagine several ways of doing it but I think its best to wait for better agent support.  Having the AI form a non-moving formation in certain situations would run the risk of them becoming static pincushions for archer types. You would need a variety of checks and balances and such.   And moving formations are more of a mob atm.

The formations were quick and easy, just had to add the front end to Highlander's script and tweak the backend a bit. I dont think its time efficient to try significant AI scripting with the current mod tools though.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 30, 2007, 07:39:31 AM
When that next version of M&B comes out, with support for the custom skeletons ...

When the trolls finally look like Tolkien's trolls, i.e. as big as a house ...

We should have at least one NPC who is, in fact, a cave troll.  Have no real trade inventory option for him.  Just, have a named hero character who is a troll.  Confuse everyone's tactics ... mess with people's heads.  Also give everyone playing evil side a good reason to go down to Moria, and maybe have to complete a couple of errands before you get the troll.

That one can go right alongside player-usable pachyderms.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 30, 2007, 07:41:31 AM
mmmmmm, yeah, I can see myself playing bad guys once again if we get trolls like that..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on June 30, 2007, 10:27:05 AM
I don't know if I haven't suggested it already. Since we're using the closed bascinet for orcs (which looks awesome bad imho. good pick), we could give the rivendell archers the opened bascinet without the nasal, nay? I think it would suit them very well.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boosh on June 30, 2007, 03:36:44 PM
Rivendell soldiers look great in the Lothlorien helm, maybe a rivendell version of that?

I also wanted to ask, once modding skeletons is allowed, will orcs and uruks be made smaller than humans, as well as elves being made a little taller?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on June 30, 2007, 04:14:15 PM
We'll see about that when the time comes, but I believe we'll use that to improve the mod as much as possible.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on June 30, 2007, 07:36:56 PM
This is minor, but logical.  Could we get military rank points as well as influence for battlefield actions?  It seems odd that you can be the greatest warrior they have ever known, and still not get a promotion because you didn't run enough errands for them.

Also, could prisoners be traded in to the various lords in exchange for rank and faction points?  It seems more logical than selling them for cash, although cash bounties don't seem out-of-place either.  Still, an outlet to get rid of the fools is needed ... running back to the bloody brigand fort to sell them is not really a workable solution.  (Note to anyone who missed it: AW already said he was working on having the non-player groups cull prisoners occasionally.  That just leaves the player's prisoners to deal with.)

And, as mentioned beside one of my bug reports, likely both loot and faction point rewards will need to be made somewhat adjustable, especially in light of the upcoming RCM version release.  In testing, the RCM version results in much greater losses to the player, and the absolute inability to "solo" anything larger than a handful of mountain goblins.  This makes the occasional one point of influence (that you might or might not get) extremely inconsequential, and when combined with low return on loot, dooms the player to eventual failure.

Edit:

Unrelated ... we really should find a use for the "adjusted_broadsword" model from the MWP weapons pack.  It's just too good to pass up.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's very obviously the movie sword from "Conan the Barbarian".  It's the blade an entire generation of boys grew up wanting... for those of us old enough to remember it. 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on July 01, 2007, 09:04:02 AM
This is minor, but logical.  Could we get military rank points as well as influence for battlefield actions?  It seems odd that you can be the greatest warrior they have ever known, and still not get a promotion because you didn't run enough errands for them.

Also, could prisoners be traded in to the various lords in exchange for rank and faction points?  It seems more logical than selling them for cash, although cash bounties don't seem out-of-place either.  Still, an outlet to get rid of the fools is needed ... running back to the bloody brigand fort to sell them is not really a workable solution.  (Note to anyone who missed it: AW already said he was working on having the non-player groups cull prisoners occasionally.  That just leaves the player's prisoners to deal with.)

And, as mentioned beside one of my bug reports, likely both loot and faction point rewards will need to be made somewhat adjustable, especially in light of the upcoming RCM version release.  In testing, the RCM version results in much greater losses to the player, and the absolute inability to "solo" anything larger than a handful of mountain goblins.  This makes the occasional one point of influence (that you might or might not get) extremely inconsequential, and when combined with low return on loot, dooms the player to eventual failure.

Edit:

Unrelated ... we really should find a use for the "adjusted_broadsword" model from the MWP weapons pack.  It's just too good to pass up.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's very obviously the movie sword from "Conan the Barbarian".  It's the blade an entire generation of boys grew up wanting... for those of us old enough to remember it. 


i agree on both counts, especially on the sword   ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 01, 2007, 09:27:16 AM
oh god, not the ugly Conan sword!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 01, 2007, 10:01:40 AM
Here is a suggestion that might be useful, and it would solve some problems of people complaining about balance issues.

Could you add a feature to the Old Man's options that allows the player to select an option to prevent any friendly faction from going any lower than "Spent and Wavering"?

This way if the player chooses this then s/he can prevent his or her faction, or any other faction from being completely defeated.

It could be done on a faction by faction basis, sort of like how you set the starting faction strength.

Thus if a player wants this fail safe then they don't have to worry about factions being completely defeated.  They can go and play anywhere they want on the map for as long as they want without worry.

It would be a great stop gap for balance issues and it allows the player to make the game easier if they so desire without making it easier for those players that don't want an easier game.

- Livonya
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on July 01, 2007, 10:16:08 AM
oh god, not the ugly Conan sword!

call it nostalgy  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 01, 2007, 12:51:33 PM
I wonder whether asking for changes (even optional) to suit the RCM mod is useful (or even likely at this point) when there are so many aspects of TLD to adjust merely to get it to play well under this version of M&B? Not an attempt to flame, merely a comment on priorities.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Heimir2 on July 01, 2007, 02:26:10 PM
While talking about prisoners.. An idea would be to, as you have done similiar "events" earlier would be that if you should become fewer then your prisoners.. lets say a battle didnt go that well, then they would rebel and then attack you?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 01, 2007, 02:28:57 PM
This is minor, but logical.  Could we get military rank points as well as influence for battlefield actions?  It seems odd that you can be the greatest warrior they have ever known, and still not get a promotion because you didn't run enough errands for them.

Also, could prisoners be traded in to the various lords in exchange for rank and faction points?  It seems more logical than selling them for cash, although cash bounties don't seem out-of-place either.  Still, an outlet to get rid of the fools is needed ... running back to the bloody brigand fort to sell them is not really a workable solution.  (Note to anyone who missed it: AW already said he was working on having the non-player groups cull prisoners occasionally.  That just leaves the player's prisoners to deal with.)

And, as mentioned beside one of my bug reports, likely both loot and faction point rewards will need to be made somewhat adjustable, especially in light of the upcoming RCM version release.  In testing, the RCM version results in much greater losses to the player, and the absolute inability to "solo" anything larger than a handful of mountain goblins.  This makes the occasional one point of influence (that you might or might not get) extremely inconsequential, and when combined with low return on loot, dooms the player to eventual failure.

Edit:

Unrelated ... we really should find a use for the "adjusted_broadsword" model from the MWP weapons pack.  It's just too good to pass up.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's very obviously the movie sword from "Conan the Barbarian".  It's the blade an entire generation of boys grew up wanting... for those of us old enough to remember it. 


The biggest problem is too many capture missions.  If I am a footman of isengard and only have three places to get missions it becomes ludicrous because two are bound to be capture lieutenant/captain and one capture brigan leader.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on July 01, 2007, 04:35:55 PM
Given the character of this MOD, I believe there should be a development away from "missions" except for the grand quests - destroying Greate (and why not lesser) hosts, killing, capturing or freeing heroes, capturing agents, destroying factions, supporting your allies etc.

The daily "grind" of war would be better handled through constantly active "missions".

Example:

-You have returned, Captain! Report!

-My Lord, since my last report I have destroyed the following enemy units: 2 patrols, 3 scout parties, 1 caravan and 1 lesser host.

Instead of "raising troops" missions (which in fact do not seem to contribute to the war effort) we could have a system where you get some xp reward for reinforcing allied units.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on July 01, 2007, 04:41:07 PM
Given the character of this MOD, I believe there should be a development away from "missions" except for the grand quests - destroying Greate (and why not lesser) hosts, killing, capturing or freeing heroes, capturing agents, destroying factions, supporting your allies etc.

The daily "grind" of war would be better handled through constantly active "missions".

Example:

-You have returned, Captain! Report!

-My Lord, since my last report I have destroyed the following enemy units: 2 patrols, 3 scout parties, 1 caravan and 1 lesser host.

Instead of "raising troops" missions (which in fact do not seem to contribute to the war effort) we could have a system where you get some xp reward for reinforcing allied units.


yeah, i still have raise 6 Eorl Guards quest active... why would i give away 6 elite soldiers who contribute to nothing in the war effort... i'd rather keep them or give them to Great Host for an extra punch.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on July 01, 2007, 05:09:13 PM
I wonder whether asking for changes (even optional) to suit the RCM mod is useful (or even likely at this point) when there are so many aspects of TLD to adjust merely to get it to play well under this version of M&B? Not an attempt to flame, merely a comment on priorities.

Some of us haven't even tried the latest TLD release because we're waiting for RCM to be implemented, knowing full well the bag of goodies it will be and don't want it spoiled by the native damage model (does anyone actually enjoy that these days?).  Anything that speeds along/balances RCM's entrance into TLD should have the highest priority possible next to bug hunting.  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 01, 2007, 05:13:55 PM
I wonder whether asking for changes (even optional) to suit the RCM mod is useful (or even likely at this point) when there are so many aspects of TLD to adjust merely to get it to play well under this version of M&B? Not an attempt to flame, merely a comment on priorities.

The RCM version releases with the next patch (it's ready), and there are a LOT of people waiting for it ... so adjustments to make it work are not optional.  That priority is upon us.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 01, 2007, 05:52:49 PM
In that case I wish you well with the project.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 01, 2007, 06:16:31 PM
I wonder whether asking for changes (even optional) to suit the RCM mod is useful (or even likely at this point) when there are so many aspects of TLD to adjust merely to get it to play well under this version of M&B? Not an attempt to flame, merely a comment on priorities.

The RCM version releases with the next patch (it's ready), and there are a LOT of people waiting for it ... so adjustments to make it work are not optional.  That priority is upon us.

The entire thing is option, I hope, or else I won't be playing tld any more....

You should tune your mod to this one's balance, not vice versa....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 01, 2007, 08:22:34 PM
Yes, RCM is to be released as optional ... however, since the current version very much has no balance at all (how many great hosts can you kill solo?), I seriously do not think there is a way to adjust to that balance.  Not without hallucinogenic drugs, anyway.

We're expecting at least 90% of players to go to the RCM version (assuming higher numbers among the development teams and beta testers than casual players ... beta test teams were pretty much 100% in favor of the change, assuming minor tweaking).  That is based on reactions during testing from conversions of ONR, Mesoamerica, and the beta for Holy War.  The native damage model will be left for those wishing to stay with it, but accommodations will need to be made for the new model.

Still, attempts have been made to keep all suggested balance changes so that they can be easily implemented in opening dialog, to accommodate various styles of play.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 01, 2007, 08:48:59 PM
I understand your enthusiasm for your mod but weve had about 15k downloads of 2.3  in the past two weeks and only maybe 3k have even bothered to get the first patch, which is in line with what ive seen before. You really have to patch the full download to introduce it into the bloodstream of casual users.  :lol:  The 2.2 version had maybe 30k d/ls versus 12k (both on the repository as well) who got the 2.2.1 patch.  When I update this time, Ill patch the full version as well as provide a patch and put them both on the repository.... Anyway, the point being, most users are very casual.

Id be surprised if 90% even play TLD after downloading it. :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 01, 2007, 09:05:21 PM
I think even amongst people who play the mods (which is usually a small percentage of gamers for a game) only a small percentage read the forums, let alone register.

As for 90% moving to rcm even of forumgoers, I find myself highly skeptical. In the next version armagan agreed to provide the ability to switch damage to a percentage blocked instead of a flat soak which will give a chance of a much more sophisticated balancing.

As for soloing a great host goes - I can do that without taking even one hit if I do it as a horseman. The question is if your balancing is better than native, and I do not think that's possible without overhauls to the engine - which are forthcoming.



AW, I'm glad you are switching the main download - I was actually going to suggest that here but kept forgetting. That way more people will get the patched game...you might even consider widespread betas closed but easy to get into betas for the next major version just so that newbies to the mod or people who only stop by once in a long while will only get a pristine version.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 01, 2007, 09:26:57 PM
Yeah, some people are really into the closed beta but Im not. I think they are inefficient with a small community like this. We ran a small 10 person one for 3 weeks before release (while I was still finishing stuff) and found some stuff but even with a much longer beta you couldnt find what 2k people can find in 24 hours.  Then within 2 weeks or so of release you have a pretty solid version. Assuming you dont even work very hard at the patching.  So rather than months of beta, its all over pretty quickly.

Armagan seems to do the same, thus .808 and not .800. Bughunting is second nature for the m&b community.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 01, 2007, 09:31:12 PM
I understand your enthusiasm for your mod but weve had about 15k downloads of 2.3  in the past two weeks and only maybe 3k have even bothered to get the first patch, which is in line with what ive seen before. You really have to patch the full download to introduce it into the bloodstream of casual users.  :lol:  The 2.2 version had maybe 30k d/ls versus 12k (both on the repository as well) who got the 2.2.1 patch.  When I update this time, Ill patch the full version as well as provide a patch and put them both on the repository.... Anyway, the point being, most users are very casual.

Id be surprised if 90% even play TLD after downloading it. :D

I said 90% of "players" - i.e. those who spend more than a few minutes with the game.  Not "downloaders" - those who pull something off the net because it was there, and then do nothing with it.

Heck, I've downloaded several mods, took one look at them, and decided that they did not appeal to me and/or had no new ideas to offer.  I would certainly not consider myself a "player" of any of those.

----------

But I certainly don't see a percentage block as being an improvement.  Sticks and soft padding might work on percentage, but most weapons and armor can't really be explained that way anyhow.  That change is minimal.

And you won't "solo" anything in the RCM mods, unless you're like level 60 with all of the best armor in the game.  Even then, it's tough.  That's why there are balance issues.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 01, 2007, 09:36:22 PM
I understand your enthusiasm for your mod but weve had about 15k downloads of 2.3  in the past two weeks and only maybe 3k have even bothered to get the first patch, which is in line with what ive seen before. You really have to patch the full download to introduce it into the bloodstream of casual users.  :lol:  The 2.2 version had maybe 30k d/ls versus 12k (both on the repository as well) who got the 2.2.1 patch.  When I update this time, Ill patch the full version as well as provide a patch and put them both on the repository.... Anyway, the point being, most users are very casual.

Id be surprised if 90% even play TLD after downloading it. :D

I said 90% of "players" - i.e. those who spend more than a few minutes with the game.  Not "downloaders" - those who pull something off the net because it was there, and then do nothing with it.

Heck, I've downloaded several mods, took one look at them, and decided that they did not appeal to me and/or had no new ideas to offer.  I would certainly not consider myself a "player" of any of those.

----------

But I certainly don't see a percentage block as being an improvement.  Sticks and soft padding might work on percentage, but most weapons and armor can't really be explained that way anyhow.  That change is minimal.

And you won't "solo" anything in the RCM mods, unless you're like level 60 with all of the best armor in the game.  Even then, it's tough.  That's why there are balance issues.


I know you don't, which is a lot of the reason I would never trust your 'balancing' :lol:

However, I will trust the designer of GURPS over you if you don't mind, which incidentally is generally recognized as the most realistic model for combat out there.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 01, 2007, 09:58:40 PM
But GURPS is not on M&B.  If it were, the whole fool RCM project would likely have not been necessary.  (Can't say for sure ... I've never really looked at the GURPS model closely, nor have I ever heard of it being used on a computer game.)  Reality is, we're working with what we have.  Considering what we have, I thought it came out better than expected ... and again, a lot of people apparently agree.  Sure, things can and are being continually edited, tweaked, and sometimes outright redone ... I never said it was perfect or finished.

But as for the solo attack, many of us on many of these projects feel like the whole "I'm going to go out and wipe out two or three regiments of enemy elite infantry by myself ... I'll be back for lunch" just really detracts from immersion, challenge, and/or general desire to stay in the game.  That's why I quit playing TLD for .751 after about a week ... it was cool to watch, but there was no game any more.  I wasn't the only one.

So if you just like that balance, well, the native-based model will be kept in the game.  However, the requests for the RCM model in TLD have been numerous (even dating back to the beginning of the project for ONR)... and that is why it is being done.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 02, 2007, 05:41:54 AM
I didn't really get on with ONR. The setting was fine, but there was hardly any character development, no sense of your character becoming stronger. The weapons did the killing rather than your character.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 02, 2007, 05:47:19 AM
Are those dead guys going to be in the game? Those guys who ran a way and became unrested.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on July 02, 2007, 06:59:59 AM
I didn't really get on with ONR. The setting was fine, but there was hardly any character development, no sense of your character becoming stronger. The weapons did the killing rather than your character.

That makes two of us.

I don't know how much RCM is going to change the mod, I don't really know much about how it works at all however the only thing I can think of that needs to be changed in TLD at the moment is to make archery better.  The elves get spanked usually.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 02, 2007, 07:11:23 AM
I didn't really get on with ONR. The setting was fine, but there was hardly any character development, no sense of your character becoming stronger. The weapons did the killing rather than your character.

Actually, that was a game balance issue that is still being worked out.  Try the latest release (today or tomorrow, likely - 0.5.2b)   ... the bandits that you spend most of your time fighting have been seriously enhanced (through a clever reworking of how low-end types were armed), therefore greatly increasing the challenge and therefore requiring more character development.  The issue was the setting - the need to create peasant classes that were noticeably inferior to the warrior class.  It allowed players. if they were careful, to avoid ticking off any formidable opponents.

TLD does not have that problem ... the enemies are, for the most part, armored professional troops (be they human knights or orcs).  Therefore, the challenge level remains strong from the beginning.

That, and TLD has a lot of story-related stuff going on ... yet to be added for ONR.  Don't judge it before it's ready.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boosh on July 02, 2007, 07:22:43 AM
In the game Gondor seems to have a lot of cavalry power, maybe we could scale back on its cavalry power and use more infantry in its scouts.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Bloid on July 02, 2007, 08:27:54 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are no capturable locations like Native's Culmarr Castle on the map, which should prove handy as a troop storage area and resting place.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on July 02, 2007, 09:14:09 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are no capturable locations like Native's Culmarr Castle on the map, which should prove handy as a troop storage area and resting place.

no capturable locations but you can strore your troops in the Eastfold Inn.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 02, 2007, 09:42:05 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are no capturable locations like Native's Culmarr Castle on the map, which should prove handy as a troop storage area and resting place.

no capturable locations but you can strore your troops in the Eastfold Inn.

You mean just companions, or grunts as well?

All this time I have been ignoring the eastfold in completely....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 02, 2007, 10:06:46 AM
I posted this yesterday, but it got instantly buried by 2 pages of RCM debate (shouldn't RCM debate be in the RCM thread?)

So forgive me for posting this a second time, but I really think it would be a great feature...

Here is a suggestion that might be useful, and it would solve some problems of people complaining about balance issues.

Could you add a feature to the Old Man's options that allows the player to select an option to prevent any friendly faction from going any lower than "Spent and Wavering"?

This way if the player chooses this then s/he can prevent his or her faction, or any other faction from being completely defeated.

It could be done on a faction by faction basis, sort of like how you set the starting faction strength.

Thus if a player wants this fail safe then they don't have to worry about factions being completely defeated.  They can go and play anywhere they want on the map for as long as they want without worry.

It would be a great stop gap for balance issues and it allows the player to make the game easier if they so desire without making it easier for those players that don't want an easier game.

- Livonya
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on July 02, 2007, 10:41:23 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are no capturable locations like Native's Culmarr Castle on the map, which should prove handy as a troop storage area and resting place.

no capturable locations but you can strore your troops in the Eastfold Inn.

You mean just companions, or grunts as well?

All this time I have been ignoring the eastfold in completely....

soldiers only, yeah
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on July 02, 2007, 03:13:25 PM
I have a small request... would it be possible to have an "Archer Form Line" formation command? I'd even trade in the infantry command for the chance to make those bastards stop dancing and start shooting.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on July 02, 2007, 04:28:19 PM
Not yet. That is an Issue with M&B and can't be fixed with moding yet. Only infantry will respond to commands as of yet. Maybe in the next M&B version.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 02, 2007, 04:35:50 PM
That's right, just like Lanky says. As it is now, the archers AI is nuts, even worse if they're on horseback. :P
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 02, 2007, 07:11:12 PM
I posted this yesterday, but it got instantly buried by 2 pages of RCM debate (shouldn't RCM debate be in the RCM thread?)

So forgive me for posting this a second time, but I really think it would be a great feature...

Here is a suggestion that might be useful, and it would solve some problems of people complaining about balance issues.

Could you add a feature to the Old Man's options that allows the player to select an option to prevent any friendly faction from going any lower than "Spent and Wavering"?

This way if the player chooses this then s/he can prevent his or her faction, or any other faction from being completely defeated.

It could be done on a faction by faction basis, sort of like how you set the starting faction strength.

Thus if a player wants this fail safe then they don't have to worry about factions being completely defeated.  They can go and play anywhere they want on the map for as long as they want without worry.

It would be a great stop gap for balance issues and it allows the player to make the game easier if they so desire without making it easier for those players that don't want an easier game.

- Livonya

Now this guy has a plan.  I like it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 02, 2007, 11:01:16 PM
When you talk to saruman, you should use the |other(trp_wormtongue0 and have him say "Do not disturb the master! Do you place no value on your filthy hide?"
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 03, 2007, 04:15:27 AM
I couldn't help but notice that neither Moria nor Dol Guldur give out missions for Mordor characters.  (I suggested earlier that Moria have an NPC who is a cave troll.)  Moria's wolf riders are an excellent place for a new character to start building up an army, but not if you can't run enough errands to get your promotions.  Missions from the minor factions would help, as well ... give players a reason to visit those camps.

Also, I noticed that there are no missions to send messages to minor or allied factions.  That would seem a critical part of the strategy ... Sauron wants a representative to deliver a message to the Easterlings, or the Corsairs.  Or go to Isengard, pick up a sealed package, return to Mordor.  That would make for a lot tougher twist on the "deliver message" routine, since it would generally involve going through enemy territory.  Or, heaven help us if the Elves needed something delivered to Gondor ... a route that either takes you past Isengard or through the Easterlings.  That would make for a delivery mission for upper-level characters.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Oriel on July 03, 2007, 08:00:47 AM
Font color or background for Gondor when showing result of battle should be changed. When I ordered my soldiers to fight without me, the result was undreadable - dark font color and background that same as when game is starting.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Senta on July 03, 2007, 08:42:24 AM
Font color or background for Gondor when showing result of battle should be changed. When I ordered my soldiers to fight without me, the result was undreadable - dark font color and background that same as when game is starting.

i agree with that, i love the background image but it is quite dark and black font on it is nearly unreadable (when ordering your units to attack)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 03, 2007, 10:03:23 AM
Yeah, that one should be easy to fix, too.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 03, 2007, 02:00:13 PM
However, I will trust the designer of GURPS over you if you don't mind, which incidentally is generally recognized as the most realistic model for combat out there.

<snort>  Yeah, maybe by the GURPS designers and a small, hardcore faction of GURPS players.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 03, 2007, 02:04:39 PM
Not yet. That is an Issue with M&B and can't be fixed with moding yet. Only infantry will respond to commands as of yet. Maybe in the next M&B version.

Forgive me for being stupid, but how do you do that anyway?  I hit 'i' and a little note comes up with the formation, and then a few seconds later I get an 'order timed out' (or something) message.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 03, 2007, 02:05:46 PM
However, I will trust the designer of GURPS over you if you don't mind, which incidentally is generally recognized as the most realistic model for combat out there.

<snort>  Yeah, maybe by the GURPS designers and a small, hardcore faction of GURPS players.


So you think raw soak is better? Sorry, but the ridiculousness of the RCM proves otherwise.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 03, 2007, 02:24:38 PM
IIRC gurps uses a combination of damage resistance and passive resistance. Armor helps you avoid a hit and then reduces a hit by x amount if you are hit anyway.  Someday, maybe with the advent of physics chips, they will model real deflection attributes of armor based on the shape and material.

I remember steve jackson used the supposed melee accuracy of gurps as one of the selling points when it first came out. First releasing it as a battle-rules system called Man to Man.  They claimed it was based on testing real armors and weapons etc. Other than the passive/active armor defense and the "ready" state of weapons it was just a retool of the old melee and wizard (and the Fantasy Trip) games from the 70s. 

And just to add to the useless information, it was sort of used for a computer game. Fallout was supposed to use the GURPS system but something went sour and in the end they invented their own gurps-like system called SPECIAL.  Variations of it have since been used by many turn based computer games (unofficially). I even downloaded an indie game from australia recently that uses something very similar (http://www.ausgamedev.com/testimonials.html).   Gurps isnt bad by any means but despite being the "universal roleplaying game" you can see that its roots are medieval battles and not gun fights. There were probably many systems that simulated ballistics better.   

Quote
Forgive me for being stupid, but how do you do that anyway?  I hit 'i' and a little note comes up with the formation, and then a few seconds later I get an 'order timed out' (or something) message.

I cycles, tab selects.
 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 03, 2007, 03:02:43 PM
Yeah, that's how it works.

It is not perfect, but it seems to me to be a good compromise between complexity and oversimplifying.

In the next version the armor will have both soak and a % resistance, according to armagan.

Unfortunately, we can't set them both and they are linked to the armor's value - but it is better than nothing.

I was thinking that 2-3% damage resistance and .2 soak per armor unit would probably be a pretty good ratio where I would not have to change the armor ratings too much from where they are.

I might also raise up the weapon damage and make the lowest armor soak 60% of damage and the higher ones like 90%. That way if we want to make unarmored ooponents really easy to kill it is simple to do so.

If it were possible a percentage chance of deflection would be nice, but I was not able to sell armagan on it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 03, 2007, 08:02:03 PM
It would be a good touch to make hennuth annum invisible if you are not palying gondor....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 03, 2007, 09:18:58 PM
However, I will trust the designer of GURPS over you if you don't mind, which incidentally is generally recognized as the most realistic model for combat out there.

<snort>  Yeah, maybe by the GURPS designers and a small, hardcore faction of GURPS players.


So you think raw soak is better? Sorry, but the ridiculousness of the RCM proves otherwise.

Did I say that?  I'm just saying GURPS isn't realistic.  Phoenix Command, now that's realism.  Unplayable, but realistic.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 03, 2007, 10:09:32 PM
Yeah, Phoenix Command. An entire game system based around shooting people in the kidney for 1,000,000 points of damage.  :lol:  Aftermath! being another example of dorks gone wrong.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 03, 2007, 10:38:05 PM
Since damage modeling seems to be the topic of discussion, let's put a little common sense in here.

Reality is like this:  let's say, you put a heavy short sword up against a light coat of maille, 14 gauge steel wire, 1/4 inch rings.  In a number of test cuts, ranging from very solid blows to glancing blows and draw cuts, you will find that the armor protects from about half of them.  The others do damage on the other side, somewhere between minimally and substantially but less than what would have been done without the armor.

Now, almost any statistical model can be used to roughly simulate this.  Call it point soak, percentage deflection, whatever.  If you put workable numbers into the model, you will get roughly believable statistics back out.  Some might do a little better than others, but that difference will likely not seriously affect the outcome of a game.

The issue is when the numbers don't fit.  For example, in Native M&B it was possible for an unarmored man to take as many as 20 arrows and keep fighting, and impossible for a single arrow to kill anybody, even point blank range in the eye.  That was not an issue of how M&B calculates damage ... that was an issue of what numbers were being put into the model.  The ratio of arrow damage to human durability was so far off that you had these balls of feathers running around fighting, where you couldn't even see the guy for all the arrows stuck in him.  Even if you had a computer and a model that could perfectly compute the physics of every impact, it would still not work if you assume all the arrows to have little suction cups on them so they will stick to the refrigerator.

Now, is the M&B statistical model perfect?  No.  Not even close.  Is any other system perfect?  No, no good there either.  They are simple statistical models for predicting a complex reality, and so there is always the chance that the predictions will be significantly off ... and at very least, they can never predict the little quirks in reality that just don't seem logical, but happen anyway.

However, we work with the tools we have.  Sure, my intention with the "Realistic Combat Model" was to get as close to realism as possible, using the given engine and the statistics we had.  Did it work?  Well, the statistics came out a lot closer to common experience than I really expected them to.  Could changes be made to improve it?  I'm sure of it.  It gets tweaked all the time, when something doesn't seem to add.

(I have not studied the mentioned GURPS system, but if "Fallout" was based on it, someone is confusing complexity for accuracy.  The complexity of the system was impressive, but the statistical output was about the same as the old D&D "longsword does 1D6 damage" model.)

But changes to the way something is calculated are minor, unless there are just glaring flaws with obvious solutions.  The question is what numbers go in, and what numbers come out.

---------------------------

Now, I'm getting pretty good at creating certain statistical outputs using the M&B engine.  And, I have worked hard to get the RCM as close to real numbers as I can get it, given the limitations of the engine.  If somebody thinks the stats are off, post the events you think are inaccurate and what you think should have happened - in one of the various RCM threads, preferably on the mod in question.  If there's a bug, I want to know about it.

But, if you are just whining because you don't think the M&B engine can do realistic statistics, there is a page on the Taleworlds thread for suggestions for future M&B versions.  Post it there.  Not here.

And if you just like the native model because that's the style of computer game you're used to ... well, that's why TLD is releasing both versions.  But there are hundreds of people waiting for the other (or anything else more reasonable than native), all of whom don't want to hear it.

BUT PLEASE QUIT CLUTTERING UP THE TLD SUGGESTIONS BOARD ABOUT WHICH COMPUTATIONAL MODELS YOU PREFER!  SOME OF US ARE TRYING TO BUILD AN M&B MOD HERE!

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 04, 2007, 12:54:34 AM
Since the raise troops missions are ten times harder for orcs maybe they should be nixed.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 04, 2007, 02:02:52 AM
Since damage modeling seems to be the topic of discussion, let's put a little common sense in here.

Reality is like this:  let's say, you put a heavy short sword up against a light coat of maille, 14 gauge steel wire, 1/4 inch rings.  In a number of test cuts, ranging from very solid blows to glancing blows and draw cuts, you will find that the armor protects from about half of them.  The others do damage on the other side, somewhere between minimally and substantially but less than what would have been done without the armor.

Now, almost any statistical model can be used to roughly simulate this.  Call it point soak, percentage deflection, whatever.  If you put workable numbers into the model, you will get roughly believable statistics back out.  Some might do a little better than others, but that difference will likely not seriously affect the outcome of a game.

The issue is when the numbers don't fit.  For example, in Native M&B it was possible for an unarmored man to take as many as 20 arrows and keep fighting, and impossible for a single arrow to kill anybody, even point blank range in the eye.  That was not an issue of how M&B calculates damage ... that was an issue of what numbers were being put into the model.  The ratio of arrow damage to human durability was so far off that you had these balls of feathers running around fighting, where you couldn't even see the guy for all the arrows stuck in him.  Even if you had a computer and a model that could perfectly compute the physics of every impact, it would still not work if you assume all the arrows to have little suction cups on them so they will stick to the refrigerator.

Now, is the M&B statistical model perfect?  No.  Not even close.  Is any other system perfect?  No, no good there either.  They are simple statistical models for predicting a complex reality, and so there is always the chance that the predictions will be significantly off ... and at very least, they can never predict the little quirks in reality that just don't seem logical, but happen anyway.

However, we work with the tools we have.  Sure, my intention with the "Realistic Combat Model" was to get as close to realism as possible, using the given engine and the statistics we had.  Did it work?  Well, the statistics came out a lot closer to common experience than I really expected them to.  Could changes be made to improve it?  I'm sure of it.  It gets tweaked all the time, when something doesn't seem to add.

(I have not studied the mentioned GURPS system, but if "Fallout" was based on it, someone is confusing complexity for accuracy.  The complexity of the system was impressive, but the statistical output was about the same as the old D&D "longsword does 1D6 damage" model.)

But changes to the way something is calculated are minor, unless there are just glaring flaws with obvious solutions.  The question is what numbers go in, and what numbers come out.

---------------------------

Now, I'm getting pretty good at creating certain statistical outputs using the M&B engine.  And, I have worked hard to get the RCM as close to real numbers as I can get it, given the limitations of the engine.  If somebody thinks the stats are off, post the events you think are inaccurate and what you think should have happened - in one of the various RCM threads, preferably on the mod in question.  If there's a bug, I want to know about it.

But, if you are just whining because you don't think the M&B engine can do realistic statistics, there is a page on the Taleworlds thread for suggestions for future M&B versions.  Post it there.  Not here.

And if you just like the native model because that's the style of computer game you're used to ... well, that's why TLD is releasing both versions.  But there are hundreds of people waiting for the other (or anything else more reasonable than native), all of whom don't want to hear it.

BUT PLEASE QUIT CLUTTERING UP THE TLD SUGGESTIONS BOARD ABOUT WHICH COMPUTATIONAL MODELS YOU PREFER!  SOME OF US ARE TRYING TO BUILD AN M&B MOD HERE!



Uh, yeah. You are building it? That's kind of funny. If you were serious about not discussing it you would also not have made this longwinded post.

Nothing you have said has any meaning as far as I can tell. I have explained to you the flaws in your thinking countless time so I guess it's impossible for me to make it get through to you. Test cuts, though? First off, what is your point? You have none that I can see. Beyond that, strinking at mail with a solid backing is a ludicrous test. It's also ludicrous to think that the person being attacked will be able to do nothing to lessen the blow. Just because it penetrates does not mean it does serious damage afterwards, as well.

Furthermore, we know that the number of battlefield deaths was also very low. More men collapsed from exhaustion than anthing else, and often men would take dozens of blows from swords without dying or being seriously injured.  So, that being the case, I have to think that all your ridiculous conclusions are utter nonsense.

As for single kills, the problem is the damage done is alwatys constant whereas the armor values fluctuate, which is completely backwards and makes it impossible to model a chance of single swing kills while retaining  a a real chance for survival, keeping the same numbers.

Sorry, you just have no idea what you are talking about, all around. How anyone ever listened to you after you argued for halberds from horseback alone is completely beyond me....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on July 04, 2007, 02:59:12 AM
Furthermore, we know that the number of battlefield deaths was also very low. More men collapsed from exhaustion than anthing else, and often men would take dozens of blows from swords without dying or being seriously injured.  So, that being the case, I have to think that all your ridiculous conclusions are utter nonsense.

Who is we and what battlefields are we talking about? Can you give any sources?

Often taking dozens (like 24+ ?) of blows from swords (several attackers?) and still not being seriously injured? Please elaborate on how that would come to pass.

Edit: Just realized what thread this is in. Should probably be moved to another/new one.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 04, 2007, 06:10:18 AM
Wow  :shock:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 04, 2007, 07:03:19 AM
Ok, ok, no fighting.  ;)

Off topic, but being a 10th level dork I find systems interesting.

Quote
(I have not studied the mentioned GURPS system, but if "Fallout" was based on it, someone is confusing complexity for accuracy.  The complexity of the system was impressive, but the statistical output was about the same as the old D&D "longsword does 1D6 damage" model.)

The damage was standard but health was much lower. The innovative aspect of the system was the passive/active armor model which did make some sense. Your passive armor rating would essentially add to your active parries and blocks, etc.   Then you get a damage resistance from the armor after being hit.  Weapon "balance" was the other new mechanic.    Afaik, none of this part of gurps/man-to-man made it into Fallout's SPECIAL system.  They just ripped the skills, perks, stats, etc.

Edit --well, they did have %DR and AC iirc. But without active defenses its somehow not as interesting.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 04, 2007, 07:55:16 AM
I like systems too ... it's how I figured out that M&B had a very workable (if simple) model, if you just plugged good numbers into it.  I thought that M&B using a random number between half and full of the rated damage was rather clever ... it accounted for all kinds of unknowns (human motion, minor mistakes, soft spots in armor, whatever) with a simple random number.  Any bonus for or against this could be added in, but it would still be at the mercy of a certain degree of chance. 

Yet, it wasn't completely random, like systems that roll a number between zero/miss ("to hit") and the rated value ... which make some sense in turn-based strategy, maybe, but would detract from a game where player actions determine that you made some kind of hit.  Action games that do this are very annoying ... "I swung right through him!"

Too bad the Native damage numbers didn't take advantage of it like it could have.  Would have saved a lot of us a lot of trouble building a new set of numbers.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 04, 2007, 08:20:57 AM
Well, yeah, these are older systems that arent made for real-time 3d worlds.  The old pen and paper designers have largely missed their window for cashing in on computer games.  Their IP never had much value but its pretty low now.

Reducing the randomization or "diceyness" of damage was even tried in older systems though. Just using multiple dice generates averages and some systems, like aftermath!,  used a weapon damage multiplier with which you amplified the main damage roll. Then there were the chart based games like the above mentioned phoenix command.  You have maybe 30 hp and a quarter of the entries on the chart inflict 500,000+ damage.  :lol:  RPGs like that I categorize as "trauma porn".  They wouldnt translate to computer games as survival was less the objective than it was having an interesting death and laughing about it. Thats what FPS games are for.

I really cant comment on RCM as I havent tried it yet but Ill get around to it.  I made an alternate strategic resolution script but cant quite bring myself to finish it up.



Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 04, 2007, 08:48:14 AM
"Trauma porn"?   ::)

No, I was really looking for real statistics ... like the NATO study that said only about 30% of first bullet wounds are debilitating, going up to about 85-90% for the second wound and 99% on the third.  (That was the study in the 1960's that caused everybody to put 3-round burst on their weapons.)  Those stats don't make for an interesting 50,000 point death, but they do predict reality based on observation of reality.  Sometimes reality sucks.  Sometimes reality doesn't do any of the things you expect.  Other times it's very predictable.  At least it gets rid of the "porcupine effect", where guys had so many arrows sticking through them that their backs looked like a porcupine.

Anyway, except for bryce and maybe half a dozen others, everyone else who has played with M&B mods says that the RCM is an improvement.  It makes the startup on TLD kind of rough ... why I advised a "more loot" option for the old man, and to be honest, a "war starts even later than default" option wouldn't be too bad either.  However, with a few levels and some good equipment, you can at least hold your own.

I ran a test with an elf, export character and give him about 20 levels worth of attribute and skill points ... you can still become a great hero, if you live until level 25 or 30 and get great equipment, and then use your troops carefully.  You just can't go out there at level 1 with a T-shirt and solo a great host.  There is challenge even at the highest levels.

It will, no doubt, require some tweaks ... and people will find bugs and things I missed ... and somebody will gripe about something, I'm sure.  But this is the nature of development.

Do try it before the release ... see what I'm talking about.

-------------------------

And speaking of alternate resolutions, I liked the .751 deal where, if you went down, the fight would continue for a bit on auto-resolve ... it seemed like, if you go down, your troops had to pull you out.  It made a lot more sense than having some of your companions beamed up and held prisoner by Scotty every time you went down.

Maybe characters could only be listed as wounded or captured if THEY go down, not you.... and only captured if you leave the fight.  That would make more sense, but would still get the point across (the point being that your people can be crippled or captured).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 04, 2007, 09:06:36 AM
Yeah, that all needs tweaking. Heroes cant be capped unless they are KO as well though. Unlike the wounds.



--EDIT: Trauma porn rpgs, yeah. I mean, if you have x hitpoints, whats the point of a system giving you x+ 500,000 points of damage from a bullet?  Its a bit like something from Spinal Tap: "It goes all the way up to 11".  Its designed to be humorous. At least I hope it was.

There are miniatures  battle rules and rpgs and some that try to do both but its inevitable that many rpgers resist the most realistic system. Realistic usually means death and thats not conductive to developing a character over the long term.  If World of Warcraft  implemented a hammer that did 1,000,000 damage, destroyed your sternum and wiped your character, there goes the user base.  They dont want realism, they want development of their character.  MMORPGS being the extreme example for crpgs.

Of course, Im not talking about mount and blade, which as a single player crpg can be pushed in any number of directions without much problem.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 04, 2007, 02:47:09 PM

Like I said, I will make a rebalancing mod for the next M&B version and then people can decide for themselves....


I can't wait ...  ::)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 04, 2007, 02:59:35 PM
RCM for TLD is optional (which is good.).

So as I agree with some things you said, Bryce, please, make a Ron Hating thread or something, but cut the "debate" here.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on July 04, 2007, 03:06:39 PM
RCM for TLD is optional (which is good.).

So as I agree with some things you said, Bryce, please, make a Ron Hating thread or something, but cut the "debate" here.

Seconded. There's an RCM threat. Take this there please, other suggestions are being buired by this. And if possible, AW, perhaps moving the RCM related posts there would be a good idea?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 04, 2007, 03:33:56 PM
Sorry, guys. I try to ignore him but it's hard.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 04, 2007, 05:02:02 PM

lets end the back and forth --aw
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 04, 2007, 05:52:36 PM


Ok, lets end the back and forth here. Somewhere an elven baby is crying.. --aw
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: jeansberg on July 05, 2007, 01:03:57 AM
Are you using the same skin as me, AW? Because that yellow text is really hard to see.  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 05, 2007, 02:49:17 AM
mnyeah, he's probably using the brown fantasy one. I have the grey blue old basic one and it really isn't nice to read ;) (ie the red was better). But I guess I'm a minority at MBX..

Yeah, im using the ugly brown default. I assumed most would be lazy like myself and not change the forum colors. Yellow stands out pretty well. Ill try....


BEIGE!!

Na, thats basically white.

Blue is hard to read.--- ok orange looks good.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 05, 2007, 03:25:09 AM
You should up the power draw requirement for the iron bow. What good does a power draw boost do when the max damage bonus for it is 7?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 05, 2007, 04:33:17 AM
mnyeah, he's probably using the brown fantasy one. I have the grey blue old basic one and it really isn't nice to read ;) (ie the red was better). But I guess I'm a minority at MBX..

I have the same as you, I hate the brown one :P and I can't read the yellow stuff unless I select it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 05, 2007, 06:17:43 AM
[offtopic]
Trauma porn rpg... eh, I remember "Paranoia" (futuristic humorous RPG in Orwellian style), where your damage level was one of "Unscratched", "Brusied", "Wounded", "Critical", "Death", and then it would go on for another dozen levels of progressively more death status, culminating in "Smoking boots" (everything that remained of you). A system to model the overkill! (and, you played six clones of your character in succession, to let you die up to six time in a session).
[/offtopic]



Yeah, Paranoia was classic trauma porn (of the good kind). Didnt take itself seriously.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 06, 2007, 09:30:43 AM
With the changes in archery...I hate to say this, but maybe an option to *increase* the archery skill for units is now in order.

In general in this version of M&B it also seems I can just stand still on my horse in medium armor and 90% of the time when I get hit I take 0 damage, as well.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 06, 2007, 09:59:32 AM
With the changes in archery...I hate to say this, but maybe an option to *increase* the archery skill for units is now in order.

In general in this version of M&B it also seems I can just stand still on my horse in medium armor and 90% of the time when I get hit I take 0 damage, as well.



I completely agree.  Archery is pointless right now. 

The archery units need an extra 150+ points in archery skill and maybe 2 or 3 more points in power draw to be useful. 

I have a hero that has an archery skill of 250 and power draw of 6, and I gave him the rewards bow from Rohan and the +4 arrows, and even with all of that my hero is just okay.

- Livonya

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 07, 2007, 06:46:34 AM
Suggestion for the capture of heroes feature. :) it struck me like this...Mablung got captured..and has been in prison for several weeks.
I couldn't rescue him so I stopped trying until I can raise some rangers to go with..
But would he still survive in orc prison in the hands of the enemy unharmed?
Lets add some crippling! :D I mean...heavy torture decreasing his stats, maybe even cut of his hand or something...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on July 07, 2007, 08:15:45 AM
Suggestion for the capture of heroes feature. :) it struck me like this...Mablung got captured..and has been in prison for several weeks.
I couldn't rescue him so I stopped trying until I can raise some rangers to go with..
But would he still survive in orc prison in the hands of the enemy unharmed?
Lets add some crippling! :D I mean...heavy torture decreasing his stats, maybe even cut of his hand or something...

Thanks, that conjured up images of orcstickers used in nefarious and plain icky ways.  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 07, 2007, 08:19:31 AM
"Sir, thank you for rescuing me from that hell! But I've experienced the orc chief's "fluffy bunny" and I can't live with that memory. Please, give me peace with your sword !!"     :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 07, 2007, 08:23:48 AM
Yeah, let's not go there.  The game is graphic enough as it is, without conjuring up images like that.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 07, 2007, 09:00:29 AM
I did think about the torture and eventual death of captured heroes but didnt get around to it. Maybe in future.   For roh/gon it would be exectution rather than death by torture.

THe first thing that needs to be done is critical wound healing needs to be stopped while captured.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 07, 2007, 09:04:36 AM
Why would they want to kill the prisoners, when it's such a brilliant way to lure more enemy hero parties to their deaths attempting suicidal rescue missions?

I mean, it's the perfect bait for a trap.  Don't kill the goose that lays gold eggs.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boosh on July 07, 2007, 02:10:40 PM
I was playing my elf character and wondered - Would it be possible to do an Elven Short Bow? Use the short bow model like you did for the Elven War Bow, make it a little faster and a bit more powerful?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 07, 2007, 05:52:01 PM
On the captre or kill missions for the enemy heroes, shouldn't we get more experience and/or gold for capturing them?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 07, 2007, 05:54:31 PM
I did think about the torture and eventual death of captured heroes but didnt get around to it. Maybe in future.   For roh/gon it would be exectution rather than death by torture.

THe first thing that needs to be done is critical wound healing needs to be stopped while captured.

Wouldn't that idea make rescues rather pointless and capture more annoying? Yay, I've levelled Mablung to the point at which he becomes useful. Boo, A stray arrow/swing of an axe knocked me out, and now Mablung is a cripple. Shall I bother to rescue him, or shall I merely recruit another hero?

There is a point at which realism (or in this case internal logic and consistency) can actually damage the playing experience.

As I've said before, including an option to turn capture off should be the priority IMO. Especiially since most people rely on the early heroes at the start, which is also when the PC is most likely to be KOed.

Then you can further develope the idea, safe in the knowledge that you serving a larger audience.

Edit:

@ bryce. I've only ever managed to kill them rather than capture them (the battle is too chaotic, last time I never even realised the guy had been deployed let alone that he was already dead). Are the awards for capturing an enemy character higher than for killing them is you have the necessary mission? If not, then they should be. Also, if you capture or kill a hero without the mission you should still be able to hand him in (or report his death) for a similar reward IMO.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 07, 2007, 06:03:54 PM
I did think about the torture and eventual death of captured heroes but didnt get around to it. Maybe in future.   For roh/gon it would be exectution rather than death by torture.

THe first thing that needs to be done is critical wound healing needs to be stopped while captured.


@ bryce. I've only ever managed to kill them rather than capture them (the battle is too chaotic, last time I never even realised the guy had been deployed let alone that he was already dead). Are the awards for capturing an enemy character higher than for killing them is you have the necessary mission? If not, then they should be. Also, if you capture or kill a hero without the mission you should still be able to hand him in (or report his death) for a similar reward IMO.

I have captured like 4 of them, all on accident. You get the same gold (5k) and exp(3k) regardless of whether you capture or kill them.

As for the torture, depends on the implementation. If it happens every x weeks or something, might be interesting, but the missions are just too hard for characters that don't have foot fighting skills and happen way too often.

I would even say make it something that happens once every 30-40 days on a trigger as a special event, not something that happens all the time....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 07, 2007, 06:06:05 PM
On another issue, I suggest making everyone hostile to bandits. I'm fed up with seeing 20-man bandit groups towing 125 Gondor prisoners while a Gondor Host ignores them (or, worse, joins them in their fight against a Mordor caravan).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 07, 2007, 06:07:48 PM
My idea of torture is just inflicting critical wounds.

As for the reward for cap/kill. It was like that in 2.3 but I think in my zeal to lower rewards I may have leveled it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 07, 2007, 06:14:48 PM
Nevertheless for many characters (eg the cavalryman) it will be easier to recruit a new hero than to rescue the cripple.

Edit:

Although roleplayers may choose to attempt the rescue anyway if Good, or let them rot out of principle if Evil.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 07, 2007, 06:24:44 PM
On another issue, I suggest making everyone hostile to bandits. I'm fed up with seeing 20-man bandit groups towing 125 Gondor prisoners while a Gondor Host ignores them (or, worse, joins them in their fight against a Mordor caravan).

Bandit groups should really take sides.  Odds are that any roving bandit groups would probably only attack one side, so as to use the other for cover.  ("We're not bandits ... we're on your side!")

That was pretty much procedure in the American Civil War - roving groups of looters, bandits and such always claimed to be helping one side.  That always gave them a place to hide.
 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 07, 2007, 06:55:43 PM
It would be nice if getting your wages didn't muster your troops.

It would be nicer if you released the patch ;)

Even if it doesn't fix all the issues, I have started 4 games so far and never completed any due to bugs....

bugs arent the cause of the delay.  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lady_Chris on July 07, 2007, 11:02:28 PM
Dont know if this is possible, but can you make an extra options to select before engaging a battle ?

I would love to see

-"Be Heroic. Leave your men behind, an engage the enemy alone."

reason: well, sometimes I dont want any blood spilled on my side. I am quite skilled on the horse and can sometimes take out 30-40 enemies :P  other options could include that maybe make a chance that your men will engage anyways if you die.. in order to seek avenge me! can make them have boosted stats for that duration too and maybe you can have a spectator mode watching the battle... or make them just laugh (evil) and return back to the inn without you.  :P

-"You are vastly outnumbered. Attempt to use, some kind of tactics to lure out fewer enemies."

reason: sometimes the other army is so huge you dont have a fighting chance, like a recent 32 vs 194 I had. you can make the option also able to fail and you get the might of the full army anyways... to balance this you can make the chance of success based on the tactics skill, and when it works your maybe only limited to a handful of men yourself.





Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Adamido on July 08, 2007, 09:02:52 AM
I would like to see sieges in TLD.Sieging a Minas Morgul to rescue ALL captured heroes would be funny ^_^
There's a sieges mod,You could it leader about using his code.But DONT make moving castles :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 08, 2007, 09:23:09 AM
I should really sticky my definitive answer to this one somewhere, its a bit like the plate armor.

Sieges are coming to mount and blade, which has been clear for 18 months.  Almost every mod will have siege in future as Armagan is going to hand it to them.  I dont see a reason to even bother with something that Armagan will provide more support for at the .exe level.   It will then be easy to make riffs on armagan's system. 

I went to the 1066 site a few weeks ago and saw that they suspended development as they suddenly realized that Armagan was doing everything with sieges that they had planned and that he would do it in a more efficient way with C++ and newer scripting commands than they could with the .808 scripting stuff.  Same for .751.  I guess I should have mentioned that to them way back when but I thought it was obvious. I figured they just wanted to do it their own way for fun.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 08, 2007, 01:45:13 PM
AW, you've done wonders with what you have. But your public always want more!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 08, 2007, 01:54:22 PM
AW, you've done wonders with what you have. But your public always want more!

the public can screw itself then. It's AW's mod. People want plate armor and they're not getting it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 08, 2007, 02:29:56 PM
When I was working on lom, I put the shield resistances high - starting at about 15 I think. Then for bucklers I made the hitpoints low - like 20. That way a really good wack could break a weak shield but they were still useful for blocking arrows.  For the best shiels I put it at like 25 resistance and 100 hitpoints and they could be used to block tons and tons of arrows but would still eventually break in melee. It worked really well....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 09, 2007, 12:38:25 AM
AW, you've done wonders with what you have. But your public always want more!

the public can screw itself then. It's AW's mod. People want plate armor and they're not getting it.


lol thats true guess well just have to play the waiting game.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Oldtimer on July 09, 2007, 02:10:35 AM
Hi all,

re the decreased efficiency of PC:s archery pointed out by some posters, IMHO archery as of now is more realistic for PC char. Its useful but not overpowering either. Just now I have a char with HA4, PD3 and riding 4 and I find archery quite useful in some circumstances. More for damaging enemies before melee than for killing them outright. And the more your men kill, the faster they level.

IMHO archery is kinda OK now except maybe for elven archers, they should be a bit stronger than they are.

Regards, Oldtimer
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on July 09, 2007, 02:45:05 AM
Hi all,

re the decreased efficiency of PC:s archery pointed out by some posters, IMHO archery as of now is more realistic for PC char. Its useful but not overpowering either. Just now I have a char with HA4, PD3 and riding 4 and I find archery quite useful in some circumstances. More for damaging enemies before melee than for killing them outright. And the more your men kill, the faster they level.

IMHO archery is kinda OK now except maybe for elven archers, they should be a bit stronger than they are.

Regards, Oldtimer


I agree 100%  Elven units lowest tier should have the archery stats equal to a human 3rd tier archer though.  Elven NPC's should have it really high.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boosh on July 09, 2007, 09:12:35 AM
The best elven units, I'd say, should have abilities like Glorfy. I just got hit in the head by Glorfindel (friendly kill, of course) and he dealt me over 300 damage from one arrow. Did I mention he was shooting clear across the battle map?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 09, 2007, 09:16:37 AM
The best elven units, I'd say, should have abilities like Glorfy. I just got hit in the head by Glorfindel (friendly kill, of course) and he dealt me over 300 damage from one arrow. Did I mention he was shooting clear across the battle map?

You would think the higher the skill, the *less* damage a hit to a friendly unit would do, not vice versa.

He saved me from a troll last night, right as some fell uruks got into melee range!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stryder on July 09, 2007, 02:21:14 PM
Maybe it's a bit "LOTR movie" question, but... Can you add some more hoods in the game? I've only found the Ithilien ranger one and the old Vanilla "farmer/low-class brigand" one.  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 09, 2007, 02:35:49 PM
Maybe it's a bit "LOTR movie" question, but... Can you add some more hoods in the game? I've only found the Ithilien ranger one and the old Vanilla "farmer/low-class brigand" one.  :green:

Well, who else would have them?

I guess that some executioner hoods for orcs or variags would be good....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Apex on July 09, 2007, 02:56:21 PM
Maybe it's a bit "LOTR movie" question, but... Can you add some more hoods in the game? I've only found the Ithilien ranger one and the old Vanilla "farmer/low-class brigand" one.  :green:

Elves have plenty if you like green, and if you're a lucky fellow you may be able to pluck a hood from Haradrim or Corsair enemies' loot.  There's also the generic Black Hood you can find almost anywhere...though getting one that isn't worn in a bit may prove tougher.  In general though I wouldn't mind more hoods either, since I like to keep the lightest armor possible and stay mobile.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 09, 2007, 03:02:17 PM
Maybe it's a bit "LOTR movie" question, but... Can you add some more hoods in the game? I've only found the Ithilien ranger one and the old Vanilla "farmer/low-class brigand" one.  :green:

Elves have plenty if you like green, and if you're a lucky fellow you may be able to pluck a hood from Haradrim or Corsair enemies' loot.  There's also the generic Black Hood you can find almost anywhere...though getting one that isn't worn in a bit may prove tougher.  In general though I wouldn't mind more hoods either, since I like to keep the lightest armor possible and stay mobile.

A good helmet is always wortht he weight, especially on foot.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: pf7612 on July 09, 2007, 05:46:10 PM
Probably been said already, but playing as the dwarves. This might need some map extensions to be accurate.
Also, being able to recruit elves more than once from that guy in Cerin Dolen.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 09, 2007, 06:20:19 PM
I don't think you'll be able to recruit elves from him at all after the next patch; I believe elves will only be recruitable from elven lords spending influence points.

We don't have to worry about dwarves for now. :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Apoc on July 09, 2007, 06:25:54 PM
Duilin and Derufin could join their father Duinhir as NPC's, perhaps?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 09, 2007, 07:52:47 PM
Hi Apoc, good to see you here :)

Maybe after M&B gets support for new skeletons, we'll see ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Apoc on July 09, 2007, 08:18:30 PM
Hey DaBlade! Good to be here! Been playing this awesome mod whenever I can find the time.

Why would you need support for new skeletons to add a couple of Gondorian NPC's?  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Pausanius on July 09, 2007, 11:29:08 PM
I think it would be better if elves are able to be taken prisoners, along with orcs. I dunno just seems more realistic to me.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 09, 2007, 11:38:27 PM
Well, there is logic for not taking the orcs prisoner ... what could you do with a captured orc anyway?

But the elves - it would seem that they would be useful to interrogate, or at least as orc food ... no reason not to take them with you.

Speaking of interrogations - lords should offer cash bounties and/or faction points and/or promotion credit for prisoners (how much depending on the prisoner).  Maybe pay in faction points from the lords, as opposed to cash value from the slave trader.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Pausanius on July 09, 2007, 11:44:42 PM
Well, there is logic for not taking the orcs prisoner ... what could you do with a captured orc anyway?

But the elves - it would seem that they would be useful to interrogate, or at least as orc food ... no reason not to take them with you.

Speaking of interrogations - lords should offer cash bounties and/or faction points and/or promotion credit for prisoners (how much depending on the prisoner).  Maybe pay in faction points from the lords, as opposed to cash value from the slave trader.


Lol, I agree with the what would you do with some dirty orcs part. But I don't think orcs would enjoy eating elves because in the book they despise lembas so it's hard to imagine them eating the people who made it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 10, 2007, 12:38:20 AM

Lol, I agree with the what would you do with some dirty orcs part. But I don't think orcs would enjoy eating elves because in the book they despise lembas so it's hard to imagine them eating the people who made it.

The orcs weren't big fans of bread of any kind, because they wanted some meat.  Eating the elves, themselves, on the other hand ... well, grilled with a little cumin and some red pepper, you can eat just about anything.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on July 10, 2007, 12:44:33 AM
the ranger hood is awsome, makes me look like a ninja  :green:

I require more of these. (my suggestion is adding the little mouth cover for elven hoods too.  :P )
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 10, 2007, 07:20:51 AM
NO NO NO to ninja elves of any kind! :D :D

But I have a very cunning idea of stealing the movie's concept for masked Fountain guards..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 10, 2007, 09:04:35 AM
Hey DaBlade! Good to be here! Been playing this awesome mod whenever I can find the time.

Why would you need support for new skeletons to add a couple of Gondorian NPC's?  ;)

I got the (apparently wrong) impression you were talking about dwarfs :P I didn't recognise those names.

I'm glad to see you're enjoying the mod :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 10, 2007, 04:59:48 PM
Will some mods be integrated into this mod? LIke Bandof warriors and craft mod?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Apoc on July 10, 2007, 09:35:38 PM
Couple of minor suggestions:

- Change 'East-emnet' & 'West-emnet' to 'Eastemnet' & 'Westemnet'.

- Change currency to 'Mirian' (the currency used in Gondor).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Adamido on July 11, 2007, 01:56:29 AM
Will some mods be integrated into this mod? LIke Bandof warriors and craft mod?

Propably Siege Mod will be integrated ,yay ^_^
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Highlander on July 11, 2007, 05:45:14 AM
Will some mods be integrated into this mod? LIke Bandof warriors and craft mod?

Propably Siege Mod will be integrated ,yay ^_^
Erm... No. AW said clearly that he will not add sieges untill native does have them, too.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 11, 2007, 05:58:22 AM
- Change currency to 'Mirian' (the currency used in Gondor).

I suggest not.

As discussed in a previous thread (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,547.0.html), I think that all the attention to money in TLD is out of place in Middle Earth, and that every occasion in TLD where you currently spend or gain money is a serious blunder in the scenario
(acts like: selling ork loot; sell slaves; being paid for accomplishing missions or to escort caravans; hire soldiers; weekly pays for soldiers; winning games and/or bets in the arena; pay for night lodging; even buying food or equipment...).

The war of the ring does not rotate or resolve around mundane money, and honor/valor/duty/rank are, by far, more important factors determining what you are allowed or not allowed to do, and what resource (be it men or goods) you can use under your control while doing your share of the war. This is why I suggest not using money, by just calling the currency  'Duty' (or 'Valor' or 'Honor' or ...) points instead of 'Dinars' or 'Mirian'. The system should integrate this 'Duty points' (read: money) and 'Faction Influence' points in a well designed way.

But sure, if currency has to be just mundane money, then let's call it in the most appropriate way.


Q: Is it possible to call money differently according to which side you picked in the current game?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 11, 2007, 08:56:40 AM
- Change currency to 'Mirian' (the currency used in Gondor).

I suggest not.

As discussed in a previous thread (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,547.0.html), I think that all the attention to money in TLD is out of place in Middle Earth, and that every occasion in TLD where you currently spend or gain money is a serious blunder in the scenario
(acts like: selling ork loot; sell slaves; being paid for accomplishing missions or to escort caravans; hire soldiers; weekly pays for soldiers; winning games and/or bets in the arena; pay for night lodging; even buying food or equipment...).

The war of the ring does not rotate or resolve around mundane money, and honor/valor/duty/rank are, by far, more important factors determining what you are allowed or not allowed to do, and what resource (be it men or goods) you can use under your control while doing your share of the war. This is why I suggest not using money, by just calling the currency  'Duty' (or 'Valor' or 'Honor' or ...) points instead of 'Dinars' or 'Mirian'. The system should integrate this 'Duty points' (read: money) and 'Faction Influence' points in a well designed way.

But sure, if currency has to be just mundane money, then let's call it in the most appropriate way.


Q: Is it possible to call money differently according to which side you picked in the current game?


To answer your question, no, and miiam only makes sense for gondor, I believe.

I made a mini mini mod that changes all occurrernces of dinar to gold that people can download, though.

I agree that money is not what it revolves around, but there is no way to eliminate monetary upkeep for troops that I know of.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 11, 2007, 09:41:42 AM
I agree that money is not what it revolves around, but there is no way to eliminate monetary upkeep for troops that I know of.

I do know a way that, as far as I know, would work passably: call money 'duty-points' or something like that, and snap! soldiers cost you 'duty points'.
Now you are leading them because you are a respected and trusted officer of their respective faction, no 'they are following you because you pay them' anymore.

Many tuning and side changes (in the text - dialogs, and mechanism) required. I am not saying it is fast to mod.


Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 11, 2007, 09:54:24 AM
I agree that money is not what it revolves around, but there is no way to eliminate monetary upkeep for troops that I know of.

I do know a way that, as far as I know, would work passably: call money 'duty-points' or something like that, and snap! soldiers cost you 'duty points'.
Now you are leading them because you are a respected and trusted officer of their respective faction, no 'they are following you because you pay them' anymore.

Many tuning and side changes (in the text - dialogs, and mechanism) required. I am not saying it is fast to mod.




Yeah, but you still need money for shops. Buying a sword for 'duty points' is pretty retarded.

Money for troop upkeep is not a big issue in the mod, though.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Chilly5 on July 11, 2007, 10:41:07 AM
- Change currency to 'Mirian' (the currency used in Gondor).

I suggest not.

As discussed in a previous thread (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,547.0.html), I think that all the attention to money in TLD is out of place in Middle Earth, and that every occasion in TLD where you currently spend or gain money is a serious blunder in the scenario
(acts like: selling ork loot; sell slaves; being paid for accomplishing missions or to escort caravans; hire soldiers; weekly pays for soldiers; winning games and/or bets in the arena; pay for night lodging; even buying food or equipment...).

The war of the ring does not rotate or resolve around mundane money, and honor/valor/duty/rank are, by far, more important factors determining what you are allowed or not allowed to do, and what resource (be it men or goods) you can use under your control while doing your share of the war. This is why I suggest not using money, by just calling the currency  'Duty' (or 'Valor' or 'Honor' or ...) points instead of 'Dinars' or 'Mirian'. The system should integrate this 'Duty points' (read: money) and 'Faction Influence' points in a well designed way.

But sure, if currency has to be just mundane money, then let's call it in the most appropriate way.


Q: Is it possible to call money differently according to which side you picked in the current game?

There should be a way to award fiefs and integrate a system of feudualism (so you can have a personal source of money and men), much like the battle for sicily mod. But did middle-earth have feudualism at this time?

And there must be something done about gondorians getting orc loot, and orcs getting gondorian loot (etc). I think every good armour should have an evil varient, and somehow they would interchange depending on whos holding it. So some gondorian heavy chain would turn into orc heavy chain in the hands of an orc and vice versa (though itd be rusty or battered etc)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: rileslek on July 11, 2007, 10:48:22 AM
Alrighty....

1. Add another Inn at North. Like Eastfold Inn, make some similar at the North. And if you (developers) think that having two Inns is out of hand, then divide the capacity (of how many troops an Inn can take) to these two, aka to Eastfold Inn and to the (in example) Northwoods Inn.


I'll add more suggestions later, Ima gonna go play now.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 11, 2007, 12:11:33 PM

Yeah, but you still need money for shops. Buying a sword for 'duty points' is pretty retarded.


During the war of the ring, as I see it, buying your equipment for money is retarded.

It's the typical RPG weapon-shop syndrome, as well depicted in this comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/01/14)

"MORDOR is attacking! It is possible that we arel doomed, but I will do my duty to the end. Quick, a fitting armor and a quick horse!"
"Sure. How much are you planning to spend?"

I don't think Eomer bought his own armor or horse with his own dinars any more than a WWII German tank-squad commander bought his own tank using his own marks.

Still, sure, we need the system to limit the amount of resources (equipment, men...) of your motherland that you dare to (or, are allowed to) take under your own control. Obviously high-ranking officers and famed, successfully warriors would ask more and better stuff, compared than a fresh recruit or any Mr. NoOne. The exact system of equipment distribution need not be modeled, but, luckily, just spending 'duty points' is simple quite fitting.

I imagine a possible "you cannot afford it" dialog as follows:

You: "...and, I need that large bag of bodkin arrows"
Gondorian warehouse warden: "Sorry, but those are in short supply. We strive to equip every soldiers but times are dark and our ironsmiths are working full time already. Your old set of arrow must do for a little longer, I am afraid".
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 11, 2007, 12:17:32 PM

Yeah, but you still need money for shops. Buying a sword for 'duty points' is pretty retarded.


During the war of the ring, as I see it, buying your equipment for money is retarded.

It's the typical RPG weapon-shop syndrome, as well depicted in this comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/01/14)

"MORDOR is attacking! It is possible that we arel doomed, but I will do my duty to the end. Quick, a fitting armor and a quick horse!"
"Sure. How much are you planning to spend?"

I don't think Eomer bought his own armor or horse with his own dinars any more than a WWII German tank-squad commander bought his own tank using his own marks.

Still, sure, we need the system to limit the amount of resources (equipment, men...) of your motherland you [dare to]/[are allowed to] take under your own control. Obviously high-ranking officers and famed, successfully warriors would ask more and better stuff than a fresh recruit or any Mr. NoOne. The exact system of equipment distribution need not be modeled, but, luckily, just spending 'duty points' is simple quite fitting.

I imagine a possible "you cannot afford it" dialog as follows:

You: "...and, I need that large bag of bodkin arrow"
Gondorian warehouse warden: "Sorry, but those are in short supply. We strive to equip every soldiers but times are dark. Your old set of arrow must do for a little longer, I am afraid".


If you were part of the army then you would be int he army and that's it. Obviously you are not, so you have to pay for your own stuff.

Modern times are not analogous to medieval times. Gondor is not feudal Europe, either, but it is more likely to operate on a similar setting and that is the only way your band of men really makes sense in the first place, though you should really never be able to promote tavern recruits to military units.

Unless you nix the shops (which is a lot of work for no other benefit) then it makes no sense.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 11, 2007, 12:40:51 PM
Quote
If you were part of the army then you would be in the army and that's it.

While in TLD you are a commander trusted with quite some responsibility and freedom of initiative (as opposed to any of the rank-and-file soldiers you command), you are a lot closer to being a part of the army than any other role.

Why else lords give you missions (and expect you to accomplish them), and are you allowed to command soldiers (who are quite obviously part of an army). For sure you are not a brigand.

The way I see it, to the eye of enemy groups, you are just another "patrol" of your faction (there is some beauty in that symmetry, IMHO).
You have your own agenda (dictated in part by your highest ranking officers, in parts by your understanding of the war).
You are given freedom on how to accomplish that agenda.

No need to "nix" the shops. Just a "repaint" is sufficient. Call them royal "warehouses", "armeries", "stables" or whatever, instead.
Call taverns "barracks". Instead of hiring unemployed people looking for a job (how sad is that in TLD), say that you are taking recruits as volunteers for special missions, to be accomplished under your command. "I will not force anyone! Who is coming with me?!"

Instead of money, call it "authority points" or something like that. I think most things can be remapped this way.


(((Looting cannot. Money you currently do by selling looted (smelly) orc stuff must be done in some other way (gaining "money" -- authority points -- at the end of fights, and stuff). But this is good because reselling looted (smelly) orc stuff was a blunder anyway.)))





Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 11, 2007, 12:52:40 PM
Spend Duty points?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 11, 2007, 12:53:31 PM
I think this is a bit over the top. People like the RPG shop syndrome and I don't have a slightest problem having it in TLD. I'm not the one to decide it though..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 11, 2007, 01:05:55 PM
Quote
If you were part of the army then you would be in the army and that's it.

While in TLD you are a commander trusted with quite some responsibility and freedom of initiative (as opposed to any of the rank-and-file soldiers you command), you are a lot closer to being a part of the army than any other role.

Why else lords give you missions (and expect you to accomplish them), and are you allowed to command soldiers (who are quite obviously part of an army). For sure you are not a brigand.

The way I see it, to the eye of enemy groups, you are just another "patrol" of your faction (there is some beauty in that symmetry, IMHO).
You have your own agenda (dictated in part by your highest ranking officers, in parts by your understanding of the war).
You are given freedom on how to accomplish that agenda.

No need to "nix" the shops. Just a "repaint" is sufficient. Call them royal "warehouses", "armeries", "stables" or whatever, instead.
Call taverns "barracks". Instead of hiring unemployed people looking for a job (how sad is that in TLD), say that you are taking recruits as volunteers for special missions, to be accomplished under your command. "I will not force anyone! Who is coming with me?!"

Instead of money, call it "authority points" or something like that. I think most things can be remapped this way.


(((Looting cannot. Money you currently do by selling looted (smelly) orc stuff must be done in some other way (gaining "money" -- authority points -- at the end of fights, and stuff). But this is good because reselling looted (smelly) orc stuff was a blunder anyway.)))







As I said, the shops would have to be redone or it would be stupid. Redoing the shops is a ton of work, and aside from you I don't think most people will see any gain.

If you are in the army...you get standard issue equipment and that's it. You want anything else, you actually do buy it yourself. That includes sidearms and kevlar vests even today. In less modern times, you provided all your equipment for yourself and men. Snce Gondor is a kingdom, this is more likely the case. So, like I said before not only is it an impractical change, but it makes no sense.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 11, 2007, 01:10:17 PM
Here's a suggestion for traits.

Change the "quests" button to read Journal. Change the first quests pane to read "traits" and the second to read "quests". Add all quests to the second pane as 0% complete. Then use the first pane just for traits.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 11, 2007, 06:38:35 PM
Frankly it should be the Orcs who shouldn't have to pay for their gear. The forges of Isengard and all that, the industrial, militarised wasteland.

The forces of Gondor and Rohan should operate on a more feudal basis IMO, which means providing your own equpment and probably that of your soldiers as well. Which means paying for it. Unless you work on the basis that they had standing armies. Maybe for Gondor, but not I suspect for Rohan.

Anyway I like the RPG shop aspect.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Xeno on July 11, 2007, 07:53:44 PM
Quote
Frankly it should be the Orcs who shouldn't have to pay for their gear. The forges of Isengard and all that, the industrial, militarised wasteland.
I would disagree. I'm no Tolkien expert, but at least for the orcs of mordor, I always received the impression that the regular troops spent a great deal of time squabbling and gambling over gear - the orcs would be the least professional, most likely not to have 'standard' kit. (Uruks might be a different matter idk)

Come to think on it though, that lack of professionalism should mean I don't have to pay for gear - just let me beat up the supply snaga until I tear that shiny new axe from his cold, dead hands. :green: (j/k of course... still would be funny "Opps, my knife slipped - sorry about that, here lemme just take that nice suit of hardened mail off your back")

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: rileslek on July 12, 2007, 04:22:53 AM
Alrighty, I just got an idea... When you travel in the world map... And you see a Great Host of an enemy's faction.. However, near you is a Great/Lesser Host of your faction.. You go into battle with the Great Host.... Now...


Would it be possible, that, after a few "rounds" (when you win the battle, then you go again in it to defeat the rest), that that Great/Lesser Host of your faction joins you, no matter what the chances?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 12, 2007, 07:27:11 AM
I all ways hated when i could not join battles between 2 enemys .

 The menu for that should be like this.

   "Don't get involved"
   "Help [Side 1]"     
   "Help [Side 2]"
   "Attack Both parties"   
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 12, 2007, 08:03:36 AM
I all ways hated when i could not join battles between 2 enemys .

 The menu for that should be like this.

   "Don't get involved"
   "Help [Side 1]"     
   "Help [Side 2]"
   "Attack Both parties"   


The choices would look more like:

"Charge into a three-way fight and hope for the best"
"Check your medication and wisely decide to go play somewhere else"
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Highlander on July 12, 2007, 08:04:59 AM
erm... Are you posting that in every suggestion thread? Btw, it does not make sense at all.
Why would enemies accept your help or why should they stop fighting and attack just you. Three-way fight is not possable.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 12, 2007, 08:10:27 AM
Three-way fights exist in the arena, so they are "possible" - M&B can generate such a conflict and the AI can play it.  They may not be extremely feasible to implement on the field (may screw up the loot and all sorts of things), but that's a different issue.

Still, the question is ... "Why would you want to?"
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Highlander on July 12, 2007, 08:28:19 AM
Three-way fights exist in the arena, so they are "possible" - M&B can generate such a conflict and the AI can play it.  They may not be extremely feasible to implement on the field (may screw up the loot and all sorts of things), but that's a different issue.

Still, the question is ... "Why would you want to?"

Nope, there is only mtef_ally_party and mtef_enemy_party. Since both parties are enemy parties, they would fight together. You might be able to use another mission template and a lot of set_visitor stuff, but that would be a lot work and probably very buggy.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 12, 2007, 08:45:00 AM
"Why would i want to?"


  Let's say a quest party can only get killed by me or Why can't somebody just jump into a fight and kill every one because they were filled with blood lust.  :'( ??? It can't be done? Well how is the arena fights done? Like the 6vs6vs6 or You know what i mean. Just asking.   :?:Yes i posted it in most of the suggestions i was thinking "Why not I'm trying to make the mod more fun!"  :lol:

 Wait faction relations don't matter if a player fights two enemy that are enemy's of each other?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 12, 2007, 09:33:26 AM
Three-way fights exist in the arena, so they are "possible" - M&B can generate such a conflict and the AI can play it.  They may not be extremely feasible to implement on the field (may screw up the loot and all sorts of things), but that's a different issue.

Still, the question is ... "Why would you want to?"

Nope, there is only mtef_ally_party and mtef_enemy_party. Since both parties are enemy parties, they would fight together. You might be able to use another mission template and a lot of set_visitor stuff, but that would be a lot work and probably very buggy.

There are threeway fights in native during the nobleman quests. They are awesome.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 12, 2007, 09:33:53 AM
Alrighty, I just got an idea... When you travel in the world map... And you see a Great Host of an enemy's faction.. However, near you is a Great/Lesser Host of your faction.. You go into battle with the Great Host.... Now...


Would it be possible, that, after a few "rounds" (when you win the battle, then you go again in it to defeat the rest), that that Great/Lesser Host of your faction joins you, no matter what the chances?

Not a bad idea, and very doable.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 12, 2007, 09:45:33 AM
Three-way fights exist in the arena, so they are "possible" - M&B can generate such a conflict and the AI can play it.  They may not be extremely feasible to implement on the field (may screw up the loot and all sorts of things), but that's a different issue.

Still, the question is ... "Why would you want to?"

Nope, there is only mtef_ally_party and mtef_enemy_party. Since both parties are enemy parties, they would fight together. You might be able to use another mission template and a lot of set_visitor stuff, but that would be a lot work and probably very buggy.

There are threeway fights in native during the nobleman quests. They are awesome.


Nobleman Quests?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 12, 2007, 11:33:51 AM
Redoing the shops is a ton of work, and aside from you I don't think most people will see any gain.

What? A ton of work? "Unpractical" changes?
Ok, my fault, my posts are too long and they did not get the message through. Let me try one last time.

The proposed changes can be divided in two phases.

Phase 1: repainting. (changing just strings - i.e. text. Not models, scenes, etc.)

- Shops are just called differently (as taverns are called "drinking pits" for orks)
    taverns -> barracks
    merchant -> royal warehouse & stables
    etc.
- Money name changes (like in the "gold coins" mini-mini-mini-mod) to "duty-points" - or "authority", or "rank-point" or... suggestions? 
- Dialogs concerning money change
    sorry-you-can't-afford-it types -> sorry-you-are-not-entitled-to-it-yet  or we-can-t-afford-equipping-you-with-that-yet types
    thank-you-for-escorting-us-and-here-is-your-damn-money -> thank-you-for-escorting-us
    thank-you-for-the-prisoner-to-interrogate-here-is-your-damn-money  -> well-done-the-kingdom-is-grateful
    (selling loot to shops) let-me-see-what-you-have-that-you-can-sell-me -> what-you-can-contribute-in-this-time-of-great-need
    there-are-a-few-jobless-guys-who-would-fight-with-you-for-money -> there-are-a-few-recruits-who-would-volunteer-for-your-dangerous-missions
    etc...

While we are at it, it wouldn't be bad if also other dialogs changed:
"what are people talking about?"
"The usual stuff... the war, the weather" -> "The usual stuff... the fact that there will be no dawn for men and we will all die".

Phase one is not "unpractical", right? Just lots of cosmetic changes.

I say that, sooner or later, a repaint is in order, in any case (whether money is called "dinars" or "authority points").

I like "rpg-shops" as well, and I am not proposing to remove them, just to re-coat them in a way so that they are not funny in a Tolkien-based world.


Phase one is good on its own, even if the more difficult and rewarding phase 2 is postponed or not done.


Phase 2: re-balancing (changing values, scripting...)

This is a much greater amount of work, but the current system is not acceptable as it is in any case.
If you did not notice, the current system ends up with players going around with unlikely amount of money in their pockets
which they can't spend on anything at all. Most best equipment is obtained with "faction points" anyway, and nothing  costs enough.

Rebalancing and rescripting, in my opinion should include:

- removal of possibility to sell prisoners as slaves. Maybe hand prisoners to city prisons, or allow for real-time conversions followed by setting them free,
  in any case in exchange of increased prise, admiration and gratefulness of your people ("duty points").
  Or maybe even try to make them fight for you, as seen in other mods.
- removal of arena (or at least making so that if you don't want to use it your progress is not too slow at the beginning)
- removal from the loot screen of all the stuff that any decent guy from Gondor/Rohan would burn, bury and try to forget having seen it,
  and never ever wear, wield, ride or sell -- and that no decent Gondor civilian would buy. This includes most of the evil equipment (weapons and armours).
  Do you really want Rohan heroes to fight using evil poisonous blades, while covered with smelly ork stuff? They have a pride.
  Basically the loot should amount to horses (never wargs!), and stuff that was supposedly stolen and looted by orks first, including "good food", ore, maybe
  crates of smoking-herbs...
- strong increase of the "money" (duty points) your directly get after a battle, to compensate for the diminished loot.
- [edit:] rising "hiring" costs and "weekly fees" of soldiers  so that the amount of "money" ("duty-points") spent
  is a little more similar to the amount of money earned, on average.
- [edit2:] make it so that ordering troops on the map costs you "duty points" not faction points.
- [edit2:] just maybe: make it so that hiring experienced troops at the castle costs you (an awful lot of) "duty points", not faction points.
 

Again: this require a lot of balancing, but balancing is needed in any case, even if "money" is to stay a vile pile of coins.



I also think the changes would make the MOD more fitting the Tolkien world, and less to the pre-industrial individualistic low-moral society so well depicted in the native M&B.

The "economics" aspects in this game are in any case in the background (combat is what we play for!), but a more fitting economic system would get less in the way of the illusion of being in the middle of the war of the ring.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 12, 2007, 11:58:58 AM
Three-way fights exist in the arena, so they are "possible" - M&B can generate such a conflict and the AI can play it.  They may not be extremely feasible to implement on the field (may screw up the loot and all sorts of things), but that's a different issue.

Still, the question is ... "Why would you want to?"

Nope, there is only mtef_ally_party and mtef_enemy_party. Since both parties are enemy parties, they would fight together. You might be able to use another mission template and a lot of set_visitor stuff, but that would be a lot work and probably very buggy.

There are threeway fights in native during the nobleman quests. They are awesome.


Nobleman Quests?

"capture the nobleman" or "capture the agent" in TLD.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 12, 2007, 12:02:03 PM
Redoing the shops is a ton of work, and aside from you I don't think most people will see any gain.

What? A ton of work? "Unpractical" changes?
Ok, my fault, my posts are too long and they did not get the message through. Let me try one last time.

The proposed changes can be divided in two phases.

Phase 1: repainting. (changing just strings - i.e. text. Not models, scenes, etc.)

- Shops are just called differently (as taverns are called "drinking pits" for orks)
    taverns -> barracks
    merchant -> royal warehouse & stables
    etc.
- Money name changes (like in the "gold coins" mini-mini-mini-mod) to "duty-points" - or "authority", or "rank-point" or... suggestions? 
- Dialogs concerning money change
    sorry-you-can't-afford-it types -> sorry-you-are-not-entitled-to-it-yet  or we-can-t-afford-equipping-you-with-that-yet types
    thank-you-for-escorting-us-and-here-is-your-damn-money -> thank-you-for-escorting-us
    thank-you-for-the-prisoner-to-interrogate-here-is-your-damn-money  -> well-done-the-kingdom-is-grateful
    (selling loot to shops) let-me-see-what-you-have-that-you-can-sell-me -> what-you-can-contribute-in-this-time-of-great-need
    there-are-a-few-jobless-guys-who-would-fight-with-you-for-money -> there-are-a-few-recruits-who-would-volunteer-for-your-dangerous-missions
    etc...

While we are at it, it wouldn't be bad if also other dialogs changed:
"what are people talking about?"
"The usual stuff... the war, the weather" -> "The usual stuff... the fact that there will be no dawn for men and we will all die".

Phase one is not "unpractical", right? Just lots of cosmetic changes.

I say that, sooner or later, a repaint is in order, in any case (whether money is called "dinars" or "authority points").

I like "rpg-shops" as well, and I am not proposing to remove them, just to re-coat them in a way so that they are not funny in a Tolkien-based world.


Phase one is good on its own, even if the more difficult and rewarding phase 2 is postponed or not done.


Phase 2: re-balancing (changing values, scripting...)

This is a much greater amount of work, but the current system is not acceptable as it is in any case.
If you did not notice, the current system ends up with players going around with unlikely amount of money in their pockets
which they can't spend on anything at all. Most best equipment is obtained with "faction points" anyway, and nothing  costs enough.

Rebalancing and rescripting, in my opinion should include:

- removal of possibility to sell prisoners as slaves. Maybe hand prisoners to city prisons, or allow for real-time conversions followed by setting them free,
  in any case in exchange of increased prise, admiration and gratefulness of your people ("duty points").
  Or maybe even try to make them fight for you, as seen in other mods.
- removal of arena (or at least making so that if you don't want to use it your progress is not too slow at the beginning)
- removal from the loot screen of all the stuff that any decent guy from Gondor/Rohan would burn, bury and try to forget having seen it,
  and never ever wear, wield, ride or sell -- and that no decent Gondor civilian would buy. This includes most of the evil equipment (weapons and armours).
  Do you really want Rohan heroes to fight using evil poisonous blades, while covered with smelly ork stuff? They have a pride.
  Basically the loot should amount to horses (never wargs!), and stuff that was supposedly stolen and looted by orks first, including "good food", ore, maybe
  crates of smoking-herbs...
- strong increase of the "money" (duty points) your directly get after a battle, to compensate for the diminished loot.
- [edit:] rising "hiring" costs and "weekly fees" of soldiers  so that the amount of "money" ("duty-points") spent
  is a little more similar to the amount of money earned, on average.
 

Again: this require a lot of balancing, but balancing is needed in any case, even if "money" is to stay a vile pile of coins.



I also think the changes would make the MOD more fitting the Tolkien world, and less to the pre-industrial individualistic low-moral society so well depicted in the native M&B.

The "economics" aspects in this game are in any case in the background (combat is what we play for!), but a more fitting economic system would get less in the way of the illusion of being in the middle of the war of the ring.


It's all really impactical. I won't bother to go into details, but it is a ton of work, and there are lots of glaring things still left from native like orcs saying "Ah yes sir, let me show you my wares...."



for that matter

SUGGESTION:
Switch the orc supplymasters to weedy looking human arms dealers and such.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 12, 2007, 12:23:07 PM
It's all really impactical.
I think it a lot more practical that most other mods changes, and that is well worth it, as the MOD would have more falvour and it would be, well, more modded (less like the original and for a very good reason).
But you are right: even the first (easier) phase, with all that changing texts is quite some work and it is not like I am the one doing it. :(

there are lots of glaring things still left from native like orcs saying "Ah yes sir, let me show you my wares...."

Ah, yes, I agree completely. Good side may be a bit out of scenario, but currently the bad side is BLATANTLY more so.
Fixing the latter requires quite some "repainting" (text changes), similarly to what I am suggesting here.
But admittedly that work (bad-side dialogs) is smaller and would represent a much larger improvement (with respect to current status), and so it should be done first.

BTW: I also agree with The Xeno argumentations that the "individualistic" based native system is quite well fitting for orks.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 12, 2007, 12:54:09 PM
I like several (if not all) of your suggestions, mtarini. Probably several of them are in AW's "to do" list, but I believe bugs corrections are given priority. We know the mod still needs to be worked on, and hopefully we'll get the job done at some point ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 12, 2007, 12:54:20 PM
mtarini  -

Why don't you just do this "re-paint" yourself.

You have access to the entire text file.  You don't need the source files to change the text.

I don't think you can add new text lines, but clearly you can re-write all text yourself.

You can then simply post it and people will use it or they won't.  And I assume if you do a good job it might even get incorporated into the mod.

I have changed plenty of things in my game, and I have no experience with modding M&B.  

You can't do everything you want yourself, but a lot of it you can do.

- Livonya

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on July 12, 2007, 01:27:25 PM
I suggest some sort of message announcing the arrival of one of the four legions of Mordor's spawning.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 12, 2007, 05:09:35 PM
DaBlade: thank you! and, you are right about priorities, of course.

Livonya: That's great! Did not know that. [time passes] I tried and it is a little tough. There are two text files, "coversations.txt" and "strings.txt", that are inviting, but both seem to be automatically generated from source files as well; so I can edit them, but it seems the wrong way to do it, and changes will be lost in future versions in any case. Also, it is hard to understand the different roles of repeated or almost repeated sentences exactly. That's great news nevertheless. Looks fun! I just had a go changing a few things. Time to run it! *disappears from the forum for a long time* --- Edit: works nice! By trial and error, I found where some of the duplicated sentences are used.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 13, 2007, 01:31:59 PM
DaBlade: thank you! and, you are right about priorities, of course.

Livonya: That's great! Did not know that. [time passes] I tried and it is a little tough. There are two text files, "coversations.txt" and "strings.txt", that are inviting, but both seem to be automatically generated from source files as well; so I can edit them, but it seems the wrong way to do it, and changes will be lost in future versions in any case. Also, it is hard to understand the different roles of repeated or almost repeated sentences exactly. That's great news nevertheless. Looks fun! I just had a go changing a few things. Time to run it! *disappears from the forum for a long time* --- Edit: works nice! By trial and error, I found where some of the duplicated sentences are used.

Yeah, it definitely takes trial and error.   I suspect the duplicate sentences are for male or female PC character.  This is pretty common with dialog structure, though I am not sure if this is the reason in M&B.

I have been tinkering with TLD for a long time.  I always change the NPCs to level 1 and change Julute to level 1 and make him join for 60 gold rather than 6,000.... plus there are some dialogs that I change.  I just make a save file for all changes and when a new version of TLD comes out I just cut and paste.

I haven't dont anything as major as a complete dialog re-write, but it seems it could be done.

In any event, it is fun to tinker with.

- Livonya
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 13, 2007, 01:58:08 PM
Hey Livonya, if you ever do that, send a copy to AW; he'd probably be happy to put it in ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 13, 2007, 02:02:03 PM
Hey Livonya, if you ever do that, send a copy to AW; he'd probably be happy to put it in ;)

I sent him a script that cleans up a ton of stuff but he never used it....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 13, 2007, 02:13:49 PM
I think I still have that in my hotmail and in the tld to_do folder. I just havent gotten around to it yet.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 13, 2007, 02:19:04 PM
I am not sure if I still have it, but it only worked on the txt files anyhow which sort of sucks...but it would be easy to change it to work on source instead by using the native source files as a guinea pig - since that is where most of the cleanup occurs.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: pf7612 on July 13, 2007, 07:12:24 PM
Hello all,
Been playing this mod for a while now and want to send my regards to the mod team on such a spectacular mod. I also have some suggestions that, in my opinion, would make this mod even better:

1. More rewards from armories of the factions

2. Dwarves playable race (obviously you need to extend the map to do this)

3. Capturable towns/outposts (should probably wait for the next version of M&B to do this)

4. Battles taking place in the city/bridge section of Osgiliath should have maps with buildings and bridges etc.

5. Ability of stealth on the world map

6. Using #5, ability to set up ambushes for incoming armies, caravans, and what have you

7. Troop trading/reinforcing/taking ability Ex: I can take troops from allied hosts and add them to my army and vice-versa

Now, these are just my opinions, and don't know if these are even possible.
Thanks in advance for listening.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. Just a quick question, Can you recruit Elladan/Elrohir once there in their great host if you have the required influence? If not, how can you once there with the Great Host?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 14, 2007, 03:30:42 AM
1) I don't see that as much of a flaw. If we could think of more..why not.
2) Dwarves might happen just as elves, but I see them starting as a non playable faction...
3) exactly. Wait.
4) Of course, if it's possible, special battle locations are a must have.
5) I personally don't need this, but if it's doable, I'm sure AW will consider it.
6) That's actually a good suggestion, I haven't thought of this before. But something tells me it could be possible now..
7) You can give your troops to allied armies. The other way...well, I would like to have it, but from a certain (high one) rank I would say. Don't know how AW feels about it ;)





Another suggestion from me. Someone mentioned that he doesn't understand why we're having walkable cities instead of menus. I've seen some new screenshots from Lombard Leagues. That's why. The atmosphere. We started nicely, Caras Galadhon, the Corsair camp, Haradrim camp, Minas Tirith, Hornburg....those are really nice. But we really need to make some race/age appropriate buildings and create stunning unique towns :) it will boost the visuals and the atmosphere a huge deal in my opinion.

edit: also, could we have "Go to the Citadel" instead of "Go to the castle" option in Minas Tirith. The same with Meduseld.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 14, 2007, 06:20:36 AM
I don't really like the walkable cities. Sure, they look good, but I spend too much time walking to the shops! The towns aren't too bad, but with the camps etc I end up wishing there was a quicker, menu based option.

It isn't too bad in TLD, but in the Sciliy mod entering the towns and villages was a chore.

They have to be planned out correctly - the Fort is a case in point. Why the blazes are the merchant, trainer and slaver so far away from the point of entry? The training is especially annoying - fight, stroll to trainer, fight, stroll to trainer... Or cheat.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 14, 2007, 06:35:45 AM
why are you bitching about it here, I don't get. You still have the accesibility to everything except shops via menu. And if you go to the square, you usually spawn very much near the shops.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: pf7612 on July 14, 2007, 07:57:03 AM
With the elven armory, we all know that the model is of the shield of Gil-Galad at the last alliance, so I think that there should be some armor to go with it, especially since the elves have the least amount of prizes (compared to the free peoples, I haven't played as an orc yet) . I'll rearely ever refer to the movies as they had many flaws, but one thing that I think they got pretty well was elven second age armor- this would be a great addition to the armory at Caras Galadhon in my opinion.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 14, 2007, 07:58:33 AM
no.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 14, 2007, 08:04:39 AM
Does he mean that movie armor that looked like it was constructed from spare props from the last "Terminator" movie? 

Surely nobody would ask for THAT.   :shock:


Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 14, 2007, 08:52:56 AM
As much as liked the design, it really doesn't belong in TLD. I'm sure Chilly will include it in the Movie minimod.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: pf7612 on July 14, 2007, 11:35:08 AM
Does he mean that movie armor that looked like it was constructed from spare props from the last "Terminator" movie? 

Surely nobody would ask for THAT.   :shock:




No, I just thought that the design of the armor was nice, but your right, it was made of crap in the movies. If you could make the design it would be cool.

@ Merlkir:
Why doesn't it belong? If this is going by the books great I liked the books a hell of a lot more than the movies, but since tolkien didn't give much description of the armor, they did an o.k. job of taking from what they did have. I don't remember much of a description anyway... my tolkien is a bit rusty so forgive me if he did. Some second age armor or at least some to match the shield is all... since the elves don't have as much stuff as the other good factions.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 14, 2007, 12:24:26 PM
I don't really like the walkable cities. Sure, they look good, but I spend too much time walking to the shops! The towns aren't too bad, but with the camps etc I end up wishing there was a quicker, menu based option.

It isn't too bad in TLD, but in the Sciliy mod entering the towns and villages was a chore.

They have to be planned out correctly - the Fort is a case in point. Why the blazes are the merchant, trainer and slaver so far away from the point of entry? The training is especially annoying - fight, stroll to trainer, fight, stroll to trainer... Or cheat.

Let me add my voice to those who don't care for the walkable cities.  In addition to the annoyance of the Fort, Minas Tirith is annoying because you can't see anything because all those pillars are in the way; you have to walk all around the edge to find anything.  And there's some city with a lot of very steep hills; a pain to get around the first time to put the merchant and tavern on your menu.  Atmosphere is nice, but trudge, trudge, trudge is dull.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 14, 2007, 12:35:42 PM
the design just doesn't fit what we've thought of for the elves (which is based on Tolkien's description.)
edit: of course the elves will get more variations. This version is their premiere as a playable faction after all.

Cities should be designed with attention to the distances between the shops and taverns. Yes. But I think we still need them. I want them ;) complaining about walking just once is....ridiculous.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 14, 2007, 12:55:49 PM
the design just doesn't fit what we've thought of for the elves (which is based on Tolkien's description.)
edit: of course the elves will get more variations. This version is their premiere as a playable faction after all.

Cities should be designed with attention to the distances between the shops and taverns. Yes. But I think we still need them. I want them ;) complaining about walking just once is....ridiculous.

There's a difference between needing and wanting.  We don't need them; they add nothing whatsoever to gameplay.  So it's your claim to need them that's ridiculous.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 14, 2007, 01:14:47 PM
if all you're looking for is gameplay, play chess. Or squash. Or fucking mahhjong. I want atmosphere. I believe others do too. That's mostly the point of making a LOTR mod you know, experiencing a different atmosphere. Killing orcs and swadians isn't that much different in gameplay. I at least admitted that I just want it. I also justified it by the need of improving the atmosphere. Gameplay is pretty good right now and you DO have menus for towns. Just because you're fucking lazy to walk a town just ONCE doesn't mean we'll discard them.

Hell, I'm not the creator, AW is. But seriously, I've put too much work and effort into this mod to have it spoiled by a stupid lazy poohead in any way.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 14, 2007, 02:32:56 PM
if all you're looking for is gameplay, play chess. Or squash. Or fucking mahhjong. I want atmosphere. I believe others do too. That's mostly the point of making a LOTR mod you know, experiencing a different atmosphere. Killing orcs and swadians isn't that much different in gameplay. I at least admitted that I just want it. I also justified it by the need of improving the atmosphere. Gameplay is pretty good right now and you DO have menus for towns. Just because you're fucking lazy to walk a town just ONCE doesn't mean we'll discard them.

Hell, I'm not the creator, AW is. But seriously, I've put too much work and effort into this mod to have it spoiled by a stupid lazy poohead in any way.

Look, if you want to keep the level of discourse up, try to avoid calling other people's opinions ridiculous.  If you think the game is perfect in every way, don't read the Suggestions thread, but if you do, don't expect to agree with everything you read.  Be respectful.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 14, 2007, 02:49:44 PM
I will call people's opinions ridiculous if I think they are. Which I did. I also explained why. I don't expect to agree with everything, that's why we have the movie minimod for instance. I'll keep on read the suggestion thread and keep replying. Sometimes a suggestion appears that is worth considering. In the heaps of plate armor, uruk cleavers and pointy eared elves suggestions.

Also, I am respectful. When I feel the person should have my respect. Or the suggestion sounds reasonable (even if I don't like it.). The town thing is just lame. I know it's a game and I don't by any means suggest it's perfect now. But stripping a MiddleEarth mod of it's locations is crazy. We could paint the good guys blue and the bad guys red so the player doesn't get confused by all the various armors. Oh, and why have so many troop types? we can go with a swordsman, a spearman, an axeman and an archer. And get rid of the horses, they make the game all messy...
I'm exagerrating, but you surely know what I mean.
Your point was that it takes too much effort and precious game time to walk around the stupid towns. I don't disagree, it takes time. But it SHOULD take time. Do you play Gothic or Oblivion? the main thing you do in those games is walk around the country. And towns. In MaB which is a combat simulator, you have the luxury of city menus. You can jump to places if you just visit them once. If we make the locations brand new, it might even be an interesting experience.

Time is money they say. I'm sort of a visual guy so I say this: Suggesting a trade of sterile menus (which speeds it up a bit) for custom locations (which increase the atmosphere and improve the overall look of the game..) is CRAZY.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 14, 2007, 03:18:45 PM
I will call people's opinions ridiculous if I think they are.

Fine.  Then take it in stride when people call your opinions ridiculous; don't escalate to calling them poo-heads, or you'll end up being called the scabrous son of a syphilitic whore, and the whole forum goes to hell.  If you disagree, disagree, but don't insult.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on July 14, 2007, 04:27:53 PM
Insults come with the internet, the second you open your browser you should expect to get insulted at least once that day.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 14, 2007, 06:38:34 PM
On a different topic: battles are growing too large on the map IMO, since TLD uses M&B 0.8x.
I mean, it rocks that other groups, not only the player's, can join an ongoing battle, but this goes out of control pretty fast in TLD.

Really enormous composite groups are seen on the map battling together on the same side, whenever a few groups add, making the large hosts or legions look small in comparison.
They (host, legions) should be the largest thing you see. I think this harms gameplay and makes the game impossible to balance, plus it feels wrong and random.

A way to handle this, if at all possible to mod in, could be: suggestion: let "patrols" be the only group that can join ongoing battles.

Why so, you ask. I offer three four reasons, in order of importance.

1- The gameplay reason: so that all that battle-joining, which is currently excessive thus bad for the aforesaid reasons, is reduced, but not eliminated.

2- The scenario "excuse": currently also hosts and scouts happily join the slaughter. But scouts are supposed to do just that, scout, they are not shook troops supposed to tilt the military balance directly. And hosts will not rush to help other hosts in battle because... of the same reason why in WWII the German army group going to siege Moscow did not rush to help the one sieging Leningrad or the one sieging Stalingrad. In other words, because hosts supposedly have their own hi-level objectives to pursue (even if this is not fully modeled in the game and mostly left to the player imagination), and if the eye in Mordor decided that one legion goes to do this and the other legion goes to do that, that is what is gonna happen. I see that in gameplay terms it would always be more effective to join forces, but that is because the game gives you only a simplified view of the war with many unmodeled factors. If it was not for these, the best option would be that every faction had just a single big united army rather than several separated hosts, patrols etc. That is not happening, and for the same unmodeled reasons hosts will not join other hosts in battle (and much less be delayed for side skirmishes not related to their supposed hi-level objective).
Patrols, in contrast, can be imagined as flexible multipurpose battle groups with high level of freedom of initiative, who are supposed to catch every opportunity, as for example joining a battle in favorable conditions.

3- The elegant detail on top: so that the player can be said to lead a patrol (you do join ongoing battle). Isn't it cool when the game gives you the impression that you are an just an "agent" in a world populated by similar "agents" acting on their own but following the same rules that you are (as opposed to when you are the only exception)

Edit: 4- It is also nice that battle-group types (scouts, patrols, prisoner trains...) are more differentiated in their specific functions, as discussed in a previous thread, now lost.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 14, 2007, 07:03:55 PM
Oh, and about the walkable city, I am all with Merlkir. Atmosphere and immersion is really important in a game, as much as gameplay is.
I love walkable cities being there.
Even if I am glad that I can skip that though the menu, and I do, just knowing that they are there for me to see if I wish is great.

Plus, when a LOTR fan comes by and glances at my monitor while I play, I can tell him "Here, let me show you a ride to the walls of Hornburg".

Merlkir: you are worrying too much, it is not up to me but I am totally sure that there is no way they will be removed.

However, I wish there was a way to tell who sells what in Elven and Orkish camps, without having to remember for each city or trying them all.
Also, I would really love that the game had an excuse, any one, to let me see the Haradrim camp when I play a good guy too (just an example).


[SPOILER] I was just delighted when I had to fight outside the walls of Isengard, with the tower in sight. [/SPOILER]
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 14, 2007, 07:11:59 PM
Well, if the cities are walkable there should be some point to walking besides just finding a shop. Otherwise it's just a waste of time - and is kinda ridiculous. The people who want atmosphere *that* badly will just walk up to the gate in the first place.

Even a few 'color' npcs and a couple extra quests (throughout the whole game), would make people want to explore.

Atmosphere is good, but it isn't something you can tack on like a trailer on a semi. Even something like the chests from native would give it a little purpose.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 14, 2007, 07:16:00 PM
Add the good/bad suggestions to the old man so anybody can be happy.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: pf7612 on July 14, 2007, 07:33:52 PM
the design just doesn't fit what we've thought of for the elves (which is based on Tolkien's description.)
edit: of course the elves will get more variations. This version is their premiere as a playable faction after all.

Cities should be designed with attention to the distances between the shops and taverns. Yes. But I think we still need them. I want them ;) complaining about walking just once is....ridiculous.

Yeah. I only mentioned it because the shield was there and I thought it fitting that there should be some armor to match.
Anyway... its AW's mod so he should do what he thinks is good- leaving it out or putting it in should be his decision to make.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 14, 2007, 07:41:36 PM
Bryce: even if there was no shop or anything to do at all in the walkable cities, I would still want them to be there very hard
(just sitting there for me to sightsee them if I wanted, giving depth to that virtual Middle Earth we came to love).
I would really miss them if they are gone (they won't).

But sure, if there is any good idea to make them more useful to the game-play (e.g. missions, NPCs to visit, etc, as you suggest, or anything else), even better!
The best thing would be stuff that included a good fight, just to shed a little blood for a change ;).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 14, 2007, 07:57:17 PM
Bryce: even if there was no shop or anything to do at all in the walkable cities, I would still want them to be there very hard
(just sitting there for me to sightsee them if I wanted, giving depth to that virtual Middle Earth we came to love).
I would really miss them if they are gone (they won't).

But sure, if there is any good idea to make them more useful to the game-play (e.g. missions, NPCs to visit, etc, as you suggest, or anything else), even better!
The best thing would be stuff that included a good fight, just to shed a little blood for a change ;).

Who said you would have to take them away? There's just no need to force them on people. It's fine a couple of times, but can be annoying after the nth city and nth restart....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 14, 2007, 08:23:51 PM
Quote
Who said you would have to take them away? There's just no need to force them on people.
Agreed. How to do that? Just unlocking the menu option even the first time you visit the city  (as the castle is now) seems very doable, and would work for indoor shops.
The only thing: I find it the current system somewhat useful as it tells me whether I've been in that city before or not, but that a very minor thing.

Not sure about the open-air shops and the camps. Maybe add a menu entry with a spawning point for each of such shops, just in front of the respective person, or even menu entries that take you directly into the dialog with the guy (not sure if possible).  Seems quite tedious to code in, and not so useful for me, but I personally would not find the result objectionable.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 14, 2007, 09:13:38 PM
Oh, and about the walkable city, I am all with Merlkir. Atmosphere and immersion is really important in a game, as much as gameplay is.
I love walkable cities being there.
Even if I am glad that I can skip that though the menu, and I do, just knowing that they are there for me to see if I wish is great.

Plus, when a LOTR fan comes by and glances at my monitor while I play, I can tell him "Here, let me show you a ride to the walls of Hornburg".


Of course, most of the cities are just cut and pasted from native, so the atmosphere isn't really Tolkien, just generic pseudo-medieval fantasy...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 14, 2007, 10:21:56 PM
Quote
Who said you would have to take them away? There's just no need to force them on people.
Agreed. How to do that? Just unlocking the menu option even the first time you visit the city  (as the castle is now) seems very doable, and would work for indoor shops.
The only thing: I find it the current system somewhat useful as it tells me whether I've been in that city before or not, but that a very minor thing.

Not sure about the open-air shops and the camps. Maybe add a menu entry with a spawning point for each of such shops, just in front of the respective person, or even menu entries that take you directly into the dialog with the guy (not sure if possible).  Seems quite tedious to code in, and not so useful for me, but I personally would not find the result objectionable.

I am decorating the scenes as I play and will upload them at some point. Basically just adding visual cues as to what each guy does.

The hire guy is always by the fire and the weapons guy has some boxes and weapons by him, etc.

I don't think the camps really need separate menu items. It's not difficult to do, but it is kinda laborious to add them in to every camp.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 15, 2007, 01:10:11 AM
well, I hope we can finally get some guys model and texture some appropriate houses and other stuff for all town scenes..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Jairion on July 15, 2007, 12:03:39 PM
Well, yeah, the good peoples should have no chance against the evil ones without the fellowship, heroes like Gandalf, or destroying the ring... But the Black Stone is still in Erech(?), and the Path of the Dead should be there, just like any other geographical place on the map. So, if the player's character figured in-game that the Dead could help, to fulfill their oath, why couldn't this be made possible? Of course, only the heir, Aragorn,  can influence the Dead to fulfill their oath, I guess, but any brave man would go in for the sake of the free peoples... Maybe.

I guess if something sweet like this would be implemented, it wouldn't be possible for an everyday Rider of Rohan to just find the way and know about the Black Stone... He should first learn from the wise and the parched, and read dusty old documents in some dusty old library that has a typical dusty old caretaker from some dusty old ages of dusty old... er... oldness.

And... I guess the dead could be used as a instant-killer of one party the player selects.

Hey hey, I got another idea. When the player crushes isengard, shouldn't the free peoples gain some dusty old items from the dusty old Orthanc, like the dusty old palantir? ^^' (Nah)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 15, 2007, 09:48:20 PM
Quite a few basic things need to be made functional before I add more quests (which are actually pretty easy). As for the walkable towns, I'm not really a big fan but I'm certainly too lazy to switch it back so they stay. Maintaining the status quo there will get me the fewest complaints Ill wager.   :D

More complicated RPG style stories might be done at some point depending on my motivation but its not really my cup of tea. I'm pretty burned out with crpgs.  Its always rehashed shit, whether you know it or not. Kill foozle, get the gem, Overcome a hangup, get revenge, assume your birthright, waken the sleeper.  Its all crap. You need to be 14 to find any of it new or interesting. The developers themselves are steeped in this cycle of crap and like pedophiles, revisit their traumas upon us. Dorks steeped in dork lore + computers does not equal good interactive fiction. Its the same with any genre or storyline really but the action oriented plots of computer games tend to accent the negative.

Probably the most well done crpg in recent years was knights of the old republic and its story and characters had me yawning. Fun to play in spite of that? Yes. Baldurs Gate II as well. It was well executed and fun to play  but original? Great characterizations? I don't think so. Its just not at the level of non-fantasy adult fiction and there are no breakout guys at the level of Fritz Lieber or Gene Wolf or Frank Herbert doing games, let alone mods. ::)

Computer game characters are simply not interactive or interesting enough yet. They feel like scripts. They don't even feel as real as a chatbot. It will take technology and not imitative writing, in my opinion, to breath life back into the genre. I have a very low tolerance for rpgs. Well, forget that, I have no tolerance for them.

A voice recognition chat with a well programmed character in an rpg? Might be interesting. Selecting one of four options to "say" from a menu? Shoot me now. Player generated "content" on an mmorpg as a substitute for an rpg revolution? Shoot me and then burn my remains. Well, it turns out that is my answer. I play games that current developers make well.... fps shooter games.  :green: That's where the money is spent and these are some of the best game products of this decade (imo). Realistic, interesting, adult conversations in an rpg? Wake me in 20 years.

So the odds that Ill want to visit that kind of thing in TLD?  Not so good.

Some of the early text adventures had a chatbot like feel that worked better than menu conversations, imo. Youd often have to type 10 sentences to get something productive but they would at least attempt to stall you with filler.  Crafting your own sentences just feels more natural.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on July 15, 2007, 10:02:25 PM
AW you mind adding quests for the dunlenders i'm a dunlender and i want to do quests for my fellow dunlenders :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Silver on July 15, 2007, 11:34:45 PM
AW you mind adding quests for the dunlenders i'm a dunlender and i want to do quests for my fellow dunlenders :)

Yeah, getting quests from your own faction would be nice. It feels wrong as a dunlander to walk into uruk-hai hunting camps to get missions, or as a easterling or  haradrim to walk into minas morgul... Sure, just getting missions from ones own camps wouldn't be enough, there wouldn't be many enough, but right now it doesn't feel as if you are of that faction, but rather just another misplaced human in the orc camps.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stryder on July 16, 2007, 01:24:46 AM
Is it possible to create a Minas Tirith marketplace custom skybox that shows the highest levels of the city?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Nightrider on July 16, 2007, 08:01:33 AM
Perhaps when the Elves have triumphed in the war up North, they should have something similair to the Eohere of Rohan, wherby the Great Host, The Lesser Host and the Two Patrols converge on Caras Galadhon to create a specific Elven force that can march south to the aid of men.

Obviously nothing so huge and powerful as the Eohere, but a competent collection of Elves, perhaps with a seperate force of Rivendell & Dunedain Troops that could form the Grey Company, i'm indulging here I know ... but Elladan and Elrohir fought in most of the engagements in the War of the Ring, I'd love to see them dominating down south.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 16, 2007, 08:51:13 AM
Quite a few basic things need to be made functional before I add more quests (which are actually pretty easy). As for the walkable towns, I'm not really a big fan but I'm certainly too lazy to switch it back so they stay. Maintaining the status quo there will get me the fewest complaints Ill wager.   :D

More complicated RPG style stories might be done at some point depending on my motivation but its not really my cup of tea. I'm pretty burned out with crpgs.  Its always rehashed shit, whether you know it or not. Kill foozle, get the gem, Overcome a hangup, get revenge, assume your birthright, waken the sleeper.  Its all crap. You need to be 14 to find any of it new or interesting. The developers themselves are steeped in this cycle of crap and like pedophiles, revisit their traumas upon us. Dorks steeped in dork lore + computers does not equal good interactive fiction. Its the same with any genre or storyline really but the action oriented plots of computer games tend to accent the negative.

Probably the most well done crpg in recent years was knights of the old republic and its story and characters had me yawning. Fun to play in spite of that? Yes. Baldurs Gate II as well. It was well executed and fun to play  but original? Great characterizations? I don't think so. Its just not at the level of non-fantasy adult fiction and there are no breakout guys at the level of Fritz Lieber or Gene Wolf or Frank Herbert doing games, let alone mods. ::)

Computer game characters are simply not interactive or interesting enough yet. They feel like scripts. They don't even feel as real as a chatbot. It will take technology and not imitative writing, in my opinion, to breath life back into the genre. I have a very low tolerance for rpgs. Well, forget that, I have no tolerance for them.

A voice recognition chat with a well programmed character in an rpg? Might be interesting. Selecting one of four options to "say" from a menu? Shoot me now. Player generated "content" on an mmorpg as a substitute for an rpg revolution? Shoot me and then burn my remains. Well, it turns out that is my answer. I play games that current developers make well.... fps shooter games.  :green: That's where the money is spent and these are some of the best game products of this decade (imo). Realistic, interesting, adult conversations in an rpg? Wake me in 20 years.

So the odds that Ill want to visit that kind of thing in TLD?  Not so good.

Some of the early text adventures had a chatbot like feel that worked better than menu conversations, imo. Youd often have to type 10 sentences to get something productive but they would at least attempt to stall you with filler.  Crafting your own sentences just feels more natural.

Ouch.

Well, I think the mistake you are making is to say that story equals RPG. Instead of calling them quests, think of things to do. The reason today's so-called RPGs fail so miserably is that at the core there is no real gameplay.

I agree that there is not much thrill to the 'choose your own adventure' type RPGs if there is no real gameplay to the game. BG II was fun to me as well, but only because you can develop a party and though the combat sucks compared to how D&D *should* be done (like in temple of elemental evil) it was still interesting and challenging enough in places to not make me completely throw up my hands in disgust.

In the old games gameplay was key. In the Wizardry series it could be insanely frustrating at times to figure out how to progress to the next level, but it was also very fun and when you *did* make it, you felt like you had achieved something.

I think the 'feth me some x' quests  and the other 'quests' in native M&B should hardly even be called quests.

However, if you had a series of quests that brought some strategic elements into the game for example it might be fun. Like if you do x y and z then the enemies of some faction will spawn fewer patrols. These quests don't have to be 'fetch me some x or kill me some y' or be very heavy on writing. If they add to gameplay in even some small way it's good.

The new capture quests are a good example. Unfortunately, they happen way too often and are way too hard for it to be any fun (at least for me). I find myself saving and reloading all the time and sometimes consider dumping my heroes completely.

In the M&B system it's possible to add in battle advantages. If you did some stuff like give an intelligence level for each faction that increased the effectiveness of automatically executed battles and had the scouting missions affect this, then that would be a great example of tying gameplay into the quests - scouting missions would actually do something. You could have each scouting party have a certain party they are looking for or location to patrol to and once it is reached they go back to a base and get a new one. Then the scouts would actually seem to do something useful, as well, instead of milling around aimlessly....

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 16, 2007, 09:02:07 AM
I don't ask for the removal of walk-through towns, I simply don't believe they add anything to the game. I just want the menu option everytime, whether it is your first visit or not, whether it is a Gondor town or and Isengard camp.

The missions do need work. Since their completion gains you ranks and rank gains you most of your Influence they are rather central to the game. I hear AW about RPGs in general, and agree. However I think work needs to be done or the feature removed. For example I just got a mission to capture 6 eorl guard of Rohan. The game will be over before I manage that, mainly because Rohan had just fallen and none of their remaining units contain eorl guards. As a foot soldier it is nearly impossible to do the capture the agent/leader missions. Other missions ask me to hand over my elite troops for no real gain. Others ask me to deliver a note and it is barely worth me doing the job.

But since I still love hitting virtual knights and orcs with a really big virtual axe so I'm still having fun!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: LordTsunami on July 16, 2007, 09:24:30 AM
I just had an idea, and that is that would it be possible to give an epic horse as an armory reward for Rohan?
You could make him one of the Mears, and call him Fire-eyes or something like that. And then you could maybe make it that the horse doesnt die\become cripled? I just think that would be kinda cool, and it would go in with the book anyway. Shadowfax was a "prince of the Mearas" implying there was more than one.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 16, 2007, 09:38:24 AM
he capture quests are a good example. Unfortunately, they happen way too often and are way too hard

Too often. That is true. I think the next version will have hero captures occurring less often, by default and, even more, if you ask for this to the old men (currently even the "rarer" setting means "quite often", I read).

Another problem of the (amazingly cool) free-your-captured-friends quests is that they also happen very early in the game, when you have no way to be successful at them. To me, this meant that I turned out to play without side-heroes for most of the initial parts of all my games.

I can offer a suggestion that might help that, and maybe not suck.

Suggestion: let hero treatment in captivity depend on his level.
(not deterministically, add a random factor)

- high-level captive heroes: maximal security dungeons and stuff. You have to free him the hard way, if you want to see him again (as it is now).

- mid-level captive heroes: the above option is always there, but he may be transported around with prisoners trains, from time to time.
When it happens, you are informed about that by a windows that pops up ("Scouts infiltrated beyond enemy lines report that <Guy Name> might be transported in chain form <city X> to <city Y> within the next few days!"  -- maybe it should say "Spies", not "Scouts", for the evil side at least).
Dispatching a pris-train is obviously easier than storming a fortress.
Maybe, instead of the window popping up, you might have an option to ask friendly scouts, when you meet them, about the fate of your captured friends.

- low-level captive heroes: just common prisoners. Both the above possibilities apply. Plus, after some random time, he might well escape captivity by himself. You are informed about this, when it happens, by our friend the popup window. Go recollect him at the 4 ways inn, he is waiting for you there. In game-play terms, this means that when a hero is captured early in the game, you get to "pay" by not having him around for a certain amount of days, but not forever or until you are big enough to storm the fortress.


Minor details: In option two, after a victorious battle against the specific pris-train, you have a dialog where the freed hero rejoins you (or is sent to 4-ways-inn if no room in party or rejected).
If you don't want to wait for the pris-train event to happen - and nothing guarantees it will eventually happen, you can always storm the dungeon as you do now.
However, if the heroes is never going to being transported (for he is too hi-level), the scouts, when asked about his fate, may well let you know that.
Also, an hero can be transported multiple times if you miss the first opportunity, and I don't think it has to be coherent (i.e. the transportation does not have to start from the city that was his last destination): it is not like your scouts can eavesdrop about all of his movements. Similarly, if you storm the main dungeon he will always just happen be there waiting to be rescued.
You have to beat the pris-train personally. If it is beaten by an AI controlled group without you, the hero wasn't there after all. Also, I suggest you have no way to tell if that is the right pris-train. It won't tell (technically, the hero is not in the list of prisoners of that train), you find out if you beat it.


Edit: I think it is very fitting to run after orks (pris-trains) in order to free your frineds, thier captives. As we know, the book has a very similar episode!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 16, 2007, 09:40:43 AM
I just had an idea, and that is that would it be possible to give an epic horse as an armory reward for Rohan?
You could make him one of the Mears, and call him Fire-eyes or something like that. And then you could maybe make it that the horse doesnt die\become cripled? I just think that would be kinda cool, and it would go in with the book anyway. Shadowfax was a "prince of the Mearas" implying there was more than one.

has been suggested before and it's really a tragedy it hasn't yet been implemented :(


AW: I've told you my opinions about that. I like RPG, BG II+ToBa are the best games I've ever played. Of course that was also influenced by the age I played them in (I tried NWN II and found it incredibly dull. It will get better they say, but the starting stupid low level quests with only a glimpse of a storyline made me trash it.), but I still consider them very well crafted. It is cliche, it is not that original, but there was a world that felt living and breathing to me back then and I could do fun stuff. The story was ok and some of the quests were awesome (detective one with a human skin - taker guy? that was great :)) ). What I liked the most about BG were the companions. The relationships between them were scripts triggered by some stats and events. But I didn't know that back then. And it added greatly to the atmosphere and my joy from playing the game when my chars suddenly started talking, fell in love with each other and shit(I even had a baby with Aerie :D)....Yummy :)
I also suggested this for TLD. Along with more expanded background stories for the heroes and maybe personal quests. I thought it would take the player's attention from the world scale stuff to something that would feel more personal and would break the stereotype of armies killing.

But I get it ;) you're just not the fan.
I'm a big kid, shiny stuff takes my attention quickly (thus the graphic whore and "artist" feats) and as you said, you have to be 14 to enjoy games like that. I guess I am still 14 somewhere inside..;)

mtarini: I like the capture stuff ideas! good job.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 16, 2007, 09:58:02 AM
Yeah, quests that influence the war have always been on the agenda but its become a chicken and egg thing with making a new war system first.

I agree that a good system can save an rpg (like kotor or BGII) even when the storyline consists of a series of barely disguised cliches and cheap emotions.  My criticism focuses on those storyline aspects of crpgs.  Yeah, I played the original wizardry and the original ultima. Ultima I.  :lol: And those were pretty hot shit games at the time but its hard to bring them to bear on today's games as things are so different now. Those games were great because there was no competition and the standards were so low. They didnt have the same issues with silly stories as they had almost no story. The later variants then introduced the menu-conversations which we still have today.... 25 years later.

The ascendancy of the consoles arent doing rpgs any favors either.  Im rooting for the Wii, buying one in fact,  as it puts console games back in their niche rather than trying to steal the crown and dumb down the kingdom.  But tbh it doesnt really matter to me, I cant really play rpgs any more.  My system would run Oblivion great but I cant help but think that I already know whats in that box. From a to z, playing it would be like checking off a list.

I see a few BG2 references here but havent seen so much love for Knights of the Old Republic. If you liked the rpg elements in BG2, you should really try KOTR.  From my perspective it still suffers from everything ive mentioned but it is one of the finest examples of single player rpg made yet.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Klink on July 16, 2007, 10:00:48 AM
Agree with AW on CRPGs. Anyhoo: I'm slightly frustrated at not finding a whole lot of challenge in Last Days, with regard to losing the war. Even with the 2.3.1 Elves, playing as elf, I managed to keep Gondor and all other allies afloat, to the ruin of Sauron. And elf is difficult only because of poorly balanced influence mechanics.

So, I suggest an Old Man option that would give the player a permanent penalty for getting knocked unconscious. I have no idea what, really. Or: Knocking up the recruitment costs to an unseemly level. And reducing loot considerably, right now I can haul back a 600 denar load from each party, that's no fun.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 16, 2007, 10:01:49 AM
Yeah, it definitely needs to be tweaked, especially for low levels. If you lose a guy most likely you won't be able to get him back at all til you are level 15 or so.

I was actually thinking instead of capturing why not have them pop up and say "I have been wounded. I must recover. I will meet you back at (faction capital) in 8 days"I am not trying to pimp my own mod but this is what I did for BE - every time an NPC falls in battle there is a small chance they get a serious wound. If they do, they are at permanent 0 health until they recover. They can also get worse over time. The better your party's medical skills are, the better the chance of recovery and the smaller the chance of getting worse. If you can get them to a doctor and pay for treatment they will recover for sure. It's like in the old game wasteland - seriously wounded, critically wounded, mortally wounded, and comatose - then death. It's a little more complicated, but I firmly believe that monkeying with the stats of the heroes is just a bad idea and that it has little effect on gameplay aside from the bugs it produces. 

The wounds that they receive now are just basically pointless and error prone. Is it really a big loss to lose 1 to power attacking? Since they cause bugs I have them turned to negiligible in all my games now - and really wish I could turn them off completely. They are even exploitable, or at least were - you could train up proficiencies higher, and also train their power attacks etc. up an extra level - which is actually hard *not* to do because it's impossible for me to remember who's had what wounds.

In LOM I actually had a wound level where the more wounds a hero had the lower his maximum percentage of health would be - triggers would ensure it never exceeded the maximum. I think that each wound meant 7% would be subtracted from the total max. It worked pretty nicely because after they get enogh wounds they don't even show up in battle any more - so it forced you to slow down and heal them if you wated to get any work out of them - which was important because you always had a small party and you only had heroes as possible recruits.

The lom style code is pretty simple and the 'some of your companions are suffering from old wounds' thing is probably in the same vein, but if you want the BE code then I can send that to you to save some time if it sounds interesting. I still have to balance it before any kind of beta gets released, but the idea itself and basic execution I am very happy with....


Another issue with the capture thing is that I will get my guys captured when fighting a scouting party if I fall when the enemy has 3 guys left! I would think only hosts and maybe patrols would ever be able to just magically whisk someone away like that. Definitely not scouts or caravans....

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 16, 2007, 10:22:25 AM
I think thats basically in now. The current system reduces their max health in battle by 10% per wound I think. The commands werent there to do it when I first made the wound system. I had to lobby Armagan for the set health commands.  If you ask them their status they will tell you their health cap penalty now as well.

The capture stuff was waaay too common in the released versions. I think it was set higher for testing and then I forgot about it.Probably other aspects of it need tweaking too.

ATM I just want to finish setting up these orc heads and then take a shot a bug I couldnt find. Stefano sent like 10 color variants and i cant use that many without a texture armaggedon. Im trying to pick the color ranges that will keep the tolkien knives from my throat.  No, I wont say what ive picked.  :lol:

Despite the new stuff though, its still down 15mb from 2.3.1. 



Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 16, 2007, 10:53:51 AM
Yeah, it definitely needs to be tweaked, especially for low levels. If you lose a guy most likely you won't be able to get him back at all til you are level 15 or so.

That is crazy. 

I did my first rescue mission at level 9.  Now that I have done dozens of rescue missions and understand how they work I could easily do them at lower levels as long as I bring the right troops with me. 

At level 15+ I can solo these rescue missions.  At level 20+ I don't even try to sneak.  I just kill everything, though it takes too long so there is no point to it.

I even did a rescue mission where I killed no enemy units myself.  If you take the full # of scouts with you then you can actually finish these rescue missions without personally ever killing a single unit.

I agree that these missions are hard BEFORE you learn how they work.  But once you learn the mechanics then the difficulty goes way, way down.

I really think people get hung up on the mechanics and over state the actual difficulty of these missions.  I remember when I thought it would be impossible to finish the training mission at the fort (when I startted playing M&B).  Now I can do it without ever getting knocked out.

- Livonya

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 16, 2007, 11:09:01 AM
I think thats basically in now. The current system reduces their max health in battle by 10% per wound I think. The commands werent there to do it when I first made the wound system. I had to lobby Armagan for the set health commands.  If you ask them their status they will tell you their health cap penalty now as well.

The capture stuff was waaay too common in the released versions. I think it was set higher for testing and then I forgot about it.Probably other aspects of it need tweaking too.

ATM I just want to finish setting up these orc heads and then take a shot a bug I couldnt find. Stefano sent like 10 color variants and i cant use that many without a texture armaggedon. Im trying to pick the color ranges that will keep the tolkien knives from my throat.  No, I wont say what ive picked.  :lol:

Despite the new stuff though, its still down 15mb from 2.3.1. 





Well, I am looking forward to the new release. Those orc heads look awesome. I promise not to complain about the colors :lol:

Whenever the post .808 TLD release comes out, it will be awesome to have some truly giant trolls, as well.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 16, 2007, 12:14:07 PM
Quote
I was actually thinking instead of capturing why not have them pop up and say "I have been wounded. I must recover. I will meet you back at (faction capital) in 8 days"I am not trying to pimp my own mod but this is what I did for BE - every time an NPC falls in battle there is a small chance they get a serious wound. If they do, they are at permanent 0 health until they recover. They can also get worse over time. The better your party's medical skills are, the better the chance of recovery and the smaller the chance of getting worse. If you can get them to a doctor and pay for treatment they will recover for sure. It's like in the old game wasteland - seriously wounded, critically wounded, mortally wounded, and comatose - then death. It's a little more complicated, but I firmly believe that monkeying with the stats of the heroes is just a bad idea and that it has little effect on gameplay aside from the bugs it produces.

I didnt see this before. Yeah, thats a good mechanic. But the stat alterations were the only way to do wounds way back when. I had to lobby armagan for the set_skills and stats just to do that much. The health modification stuff came later.

The stat/skill thing might be prone to exploitation but its not really bug-prone anymore. I rewrote it using new m&b methods and once this conversion issue is cleared up, its pretty slick, efficient and idiot proof. The old version, with variables, was maybe 1000 lines. It was a black hole.

 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 16, 2007, 03:28:35 PM
Yeah, it definitely needs to be tweaked, especially for low levels. If you lose a guy most likely you won't be able to get him back at all til you are level 15 or so.

That is crazy. 

I did my first rescue mission at level 9.  Now that I have done dozens of rescue missions and understand how they work I could easily do them at lower levels as long as I bring the right troops with me. 

At level 15+ I can solo these rescue missions.  At level 20+ I don't even try to sneak.  I just kill everything, though it takes too long so there is no point to it.

I even did a rescue mission where I killed no enemy units myself.  If you take the full # of scouts with you then you can actually finish these rescue missions without personally ever killing a single unit.

I agree that these missions are hard BEFORE you learn how they work.  But once you learn the mechanics then the difficulty goes way, way down.

I really think people get hung up on the mechanics and over state the actual difficulty of these missions.  I remember when I thought it would be impossible to finish the training mission at the fort (when I startted playing M&B).  Now I can do it without ever getting knocked out.

- Livonya



Then start a thread explaining how to complete them so easily. My captured heroes tend to stay in gaol until either I'm tough enough (usually 15+) or until the faction holding them falls and they disappear.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 16, 2007, 03:43:14 PM
Yeah, it definitely needs to be tweaked, especially for low levels. If you lose a guy most likely you won't be able to get him back at all til you are level 15 or so.

That is crazy. 

I did my first rescue mission at level 9.  Now that I have done dozens of rescue missions and understand how they work I could easily do them at lower levels as long as I bring the right troops with me. 

At level 15+ I can solo these rescue missions.  At level 20+ I don't even try to sneak.  I just kill everything, though it takes too long so there is no point to it.

I even did a rescue mission where I killed no enemy units myself.  If you take the full # of scouts with you then you can actually finish these rescue missions without personally ever killing a single unit.

I agree that these missions are hard BEFORE you learn how they work.  But once you learn the mechanics then the difficulty goes way, way down.

I really think people get hung up on the mechanics and over state the actual difficulty of these missions.  I remember when I thought it would be impossible to finish the training mission at the fort (when I startted playing M&B).  Now I can do it without ever getting knocked out.

- Livonya




How are you going to magically get those sneak troops before then??? You are not going to. You can't give your companions pathfinding or it causes huge bigs, so you can't take them.

Unless you have a character able to solo on foot (I don't ever play that way) or a big group of stealthy characters you are screwed. Both of them require you to be fairly well along in the game. And level 20? I am DONE with the game by then, invariably.  I get my guys captured at level 3 when I have a crappy shortbow as my only weapon.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Forral on July 17, 2007, 06:44:26 AM
You're done with your game at level 20? Yikes, I thought I was doing quite fine, with Mordor about to fall when I'm level 30. Damn speedy playing. You even bother with the missions?

-Forral-
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 17, 2007, 06:49:19 AM
Yeah, I take my time with my games to. Don't really care about winning the war, I just like the fighting. In fact I don't think I've ever played through to victory.

But Bryce is quite correct about the capture missions. Your original two heroes are almost inevitably going to be captured early, be imprisoned while you gain ten levels and then maybe rescued. At which point they are useless because of being such a low level.

If the rescue missions could be scaled to player level then it would be fine, but I don't even know whether this is possible.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 17, 2007, 10:29:33 AM

How are you going to magically get those sneak troops before then??? You are not going to. You can't give your companions pathfinding or it causes huge bigs, so you can't take them.

Unless you have a character able to solo on foot (I don't ever play that way) or a big group of stealthy characters you are screwed. Both of them require you to be fairly well along in the game. And level 20? I am DONE with the game by then, invariably.  I get my guys captured at level 3 when I have a crappy shortbow as my only weapon.

Umm, you just go and hire rangers.  You do realize that you can hire them if you are on the side of Free People, right?

700 denari will get you enough to do the missions. 

I am not sure what you do when you play on the side of evil.  I just started a new game last night and I haven't been knocked out yet, so I am not sure yet, but I am sure there is a way to hire a unit that will be good for these missions.

I can't finish the game before level 25 (though I have never tried), but I can handle these rescue missions.

You are saying that you can beat the entire game by level 20, but you can't handle the rescue missions until level 15?

It just doesn't make sense to me.  The rescue missions just don't seem all that hard to me.  Certainly, they are not the hardest battles in the game. 

Granted, the first time I did one of these missions it took me 5 or 6 attempts just to learn how they worked.  I saved the game and just did re-loaded in order to learn the mechanics.... i.e. how hiding worked, where I was going, how the pre-attempt messages worked, etc, etc...

I have finished a rescue mission without killing a single unit.  So with the proper troops I could do the rescue mission at level 1 (I might need to take 2 shields with me to do it).

Also, I don't know what you are talking about with some bug with pathfiniding involving NPC units.  I have not seen this problem.  None of my NPC have ever lost pathfinding skill.  The only bug I have seen with NPCs is the leg wound.

I only play my games, so I only have my experience to go by.  I don't mind the rescue missions.  I think they are fun.  I am glad they are in the game.  I don't think they are unbalanced.

Once the new version comes out I guess you can turn down the chance of them happening so you won't have to deal with them.

Personally, I look at them as a fun part of the game, and when NPCs that aren't in my party get captured they even come with a fun reward (a new NPC!).

Luckily for both of us, Ancientwanker is really good about giving the player choices.  So I am sure he will make it so that both of us will be satisfied.

- Livonya

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 17, 2007, 12:39:06 PM
Livonya: nobody is suggesting to remove rescue missions, and we all agree that they are great fun. In facts, they are cool beyond words.

What Bryce is suggesting is that they happen too often (and this is widely considered an obvious statement), and that there is a problem with balancing when they happen too early, as they tend to do. I would agree with that too, as others. (Possible reason for the differences on this point: many of us play with realistic settings - no quitting w/o saving - and enjoy it that way).
So, we are looking for ways to, yes, avoid it happening too early and too often, but, still, have it happening, because we all enjoy rescue missions at a certain point. Several ways have been suggested to achieve this result already.

In my suggestion for example you can always go the hard way if you want (have a rescue mission), but easier alternatives are available to redeem companions captured early in a game (they just may stay in captivity a little longer that way).

Naturally you could well argue that you wouldn't personally need such mechanisms, which is fine (and not that hard to believe especially since you learned a few tricks with reload-after-failure); but it seems that, instead, you are arguing that it is "crazy" that the average player would need them. It is crazy to maintain that it is crazy.

Thank you for sharing the tricks, by the way!

Of course, the probability of heroes being captured will be more customizable in next versions in any case, as we all know.

Meta-suggestion: if we all agree on these points, maybe we could stop on this particular topic ("are rescue mission easy or hard"), or keep debating it in another thread if needed.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Forral on July 17, 2007, 12:47:51 PM
All right then, I have an actual suggestion! :lol:

How about a slim chance of recovering one of the enemy faction's legendary items when you defeat their heroes, or even alternatively a special item in tune with the particular hero slain (Perhaps not quite up the quality of the truly legendary items, but enough to be a fancy trophy and pleasant tidbit)?

-Forral-
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 17, 2007, 01:12:28 PM
How about a slim chance of recovering one of the enemy faction's legendary items when you defeat their heroes

I have a problem already with common (non-legendary) items of a faction being used by enemy factions, or polluting their shops. Especially with evil items being used/sold by good guys, but the vice-versa as well. They are bad and evil things and should be disposed, not used or sold - IMO the system should never let you hold them, just by not showing them in the loot. So the idea of good guys finding evil legendary items... in general, I wouldn't recommend that.

For legendary items "evil-stuff-is-evil-do-not-use" / "good-stuff-is-poisonous-for-evil" is even more true. Think of the palantir (or even the ring) as an example of the first thing, and of elven rope for the second. The same would apply to good/evil legendary swords, amour, horses (if there was a legendary one in the game) etc.

Still, handling special cases of this perhaps would be cool (like recovery by good forces of a legendary "good" item that was held in evil hands locked in a chained chest, OR of a special "evil" item *coughpalantircough* that triggered quests to fix ill effects generated by either good-side king that, unwisely, did not resist using it - ultimately gaining, in all this story, some benefit for having used it anyway). If we had cool ideas about this, that is. Which personally I don't.

Edit: added "legendary", which was the intended meaning, after reading bryce comment below. I personally would argue that it holds for common items too (even if less so), but I was talking about the other sort here.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 17, 2007, 01:16:23 PM
I don't think most of those items would qualify. Armor is armor, and swords are swords, for the most part. The whip of angmar and black blade are a different story, though.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: RickiusMaximus on July 17, 2007, 05:08:55 PM
I have a problem already with common (non-legendary) items of a faction being used by enemy factions, or polluting their shops. Especially with evil items being used/sold by good guys, but the vice-versa as well. They are bad and evil things and should be disposed, not used or sold - IMO the system should never let you hold them, just by not showing them in the loot. So the idea of good guys finding evil legendary items... in general, I wouldn't recommend that.

For legendary items "evil-stuff-is-evil-do-not-use" / "good-stuff-is-poisonous-for-evil" is even more true. Think of the palantir (or even the ring) as an example of the first thing, and of elven rope for the second. The same would apply to good/evil legendary swords, amour, horses (if there was a legendary one in the game) etc.

Still, handling special cases of this perhaps would be cool (like recovery by good forces of a legendary "good" item that was held in evil hands locked in a chained chest, OR of a special "evil" item *coughpalantircough* that triggered quests to fix ill effects generated by either good-side king that, unwisely, did not resist using it - ultimately gaining, in all this story, some benefit for having used it anyway). If we had cool ideas about this, that is. Which personally I don't.

Edit: added "legendary", which was the intended meaning, after reading bryce comment below. I personally would argue that it holds for common items too (even if less so), but I was talking about the other sort here.

At the end of the day all weapons are metal and all metal can be melted down and reforged, so it does make some sense that you return piles of weapons to sell as scrap metal...

As for the legendary items it would be awesome if you could capture one but when it was in your possession a small but very powerful group of enemy units was sent to attack you and didn't stop following you until you brought it to a certain location possibly deep within enemy territory where it could be destroyed... (I read it in a book somewhere  :green:)

Hell you could even give the leader of the enemy group massive levels of the medical skills so the party was almost impossible to kill outright and you had to knock as many of them out and then just run every time.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 18, 2007, 08:39:43 AM
Since it's the only troop type you get as an elf, make it so scouts and veteran scouts don't ALWAYS use ranged weapons.

When attacked by a mere eaterling scouting party with all lothlorien scouts, my guys get severely owned.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 18, 2007, 06:09:05 PM
Yeah, archers dither too much, neither shooting or attacking hand-to-hand.  I tried changing their tactics (eg the Rangers, whos hand-to-hand skills are better than their archery skills) but it didn't seem to change anything. This makes them lless useful in the stealth missions as well. I avoid taking ranged fighters in any numbers because it just lets the enemy outnumber my troops and take them out piecemeal. I don't even give my heroes ranged weapons anymore.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: q2q on July 18, 2007, 09:26:19 PM

On the subject of Elven towns... I infinitley prefer them to other towns (look great and everything is easily accessible) but would it be possible to show the function of all the different merchants as ATM they all look identical? Somthing like sticking props related to their service behind them.


I'm just seconding this suggestion. When trying to play an Elven race, it's really confusing trying to figure out who sells what.

P.S. I LOVE THIS MOD!!!!  :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 18, 2007, 10:05:43 PM
Those are just basic functional scenes which can (and possibly will) be worked on at some point.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on July 19, 2007, 03:31:24 AM
Well as I said, I prefer the elven towns. Far superior to having to walk around big boring Vanilla towns, and far more Middle Earthy.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 19, 2007, 06:40:52 AM
Since the nazghul don't actually land on the field, why not ascene prop nazghul rider on a dragon who sweeps down onto the field?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 19, 2007, 07:26:45 AM
Nuno wrote:

Quote
At the end of each round our prowess is noted and we get one or two influence points. My suggestion is to increase this influence gain on battles in which we fight alongside one of the town leaders (if they are not in our own party).
Also, an added influence bonus when we participate in a battle where an enemy town leader dies. (because it becomes a famous successful battle that everyone will talk about for years)
On the same reasoning, an influence penalty when we fight in a battle where an allied town leader dies.


I agree. Good detail suggestion.

Since the nazghul don't actually land on the field, why not ascene prop nazghul rider on a dragon who sweeps down onto the field?

I think that should be possible. But the fell beast wouldn't probably wave his wings. Which would look a bit dull...
Dunno, if AW knows a way how to do it..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 20, 2007, 08:10:28 AM
Ancientwanker -

I have a suggestion involving archery.  I was playing around with the troops file and I discovered that a lot of the archers don't have enough power draw to handle their bows.

For instance the Master Ranger has PD 4 and has a Long Bow that requires PD 4.  This severely limits the Master Ranger from being accurate.

Also, the Ranger Captain doesn't have any power draw at all, so he can't use his bow at all.

Here is my suggestion... actually in options, as I don't know what is possible.

option 1)  Make special generic troop only bows that don't have any PD requirements.  Not sure if this is possible.  But this way the Master Ranger will be more accurate but won't do more damage.

option 2)  Give all Archer units a power draw skill 4 larger than whatever bow you give them.  This of course means they will do more damage, which is maybe not a good thing.

option 3)  Give Archer units less powerful bows.  They will do less damge but their accuracy will be a lot better.

optiion 4)  This is a combination of Option #1 and option #3.  Make special bows that look like the more powerful bows, but have the ratings of the basic bows.  This way the accuracy will be higher but the damage will be less.

thanks....

- Livonya

PS:  For my own game I am making the following modification.  I am just giving the archer units a basic bow.  I don't have the mod experience or the source files to do much else, but I think this change will drastically help the archer units in game as their accuracy should dramatically increase.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on July 20, 2007, 01:25:56 PM
I think that should be possible. But the fell beast wouldn't probably wave his wings. Which would look a bit dull...
Dunno, if AW knows a way how to do it...

Nah, just imagine it gliding past, Pterodactyl style. It would be anything but dull!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 20, 2007, 01:32:01 PM
I think that should be possible. But the fell beast wouldn't probably wave his wings. Which would look a bit dull...
Dunno, if AW knows a way how to do it...

Nah, just imagine it gliding past, Pterodactyl style. It would be anything but dull!

well if it's fast enough..or if it circles and changes height...would look ok I guess..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 20, 2007, 01:38:01 PM
Well, this thing should be big, and it should like as The Yogi points out. Slowly. And high.

This will make it look kind of majestic and the slowness will imply a hugeness.

After all, they are on (it is assumed) dragonback. Those suckers should be huge.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 20, 2007, 01:53:40 PM
aren't the fell beasts described length wise? they're supposed to be dragons? I always thought of them as giant featherless vultures..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 20, 2007, 01:55:51 PM
aren't the fell beasts described length wise? they're supposed to be dragons? I always thought of them as giant featherless vultures..

They never see them completely in full view, but they would seem to be dragons from the description. A sinuous neck is the only thing I remember for sure.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 20, 2007, 01:56:04 PM
I thought about it, but we didnt have one. The nazgul stuff is largely based on a suggestion made by mtarini many months ago but I didnt have any model for it so I just stuck to script while dablade did the sounds.

It wouldnt be hard to get a crappy one up and running but I dont usually like crappy things. I wouldnt mind a nice one though. Obviously the crappier it is the faster you fling it.  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 20, 2007, 02:01:45 PM
I actually didn't make those sounds (although sometimes I do), I just *borrowed* them, because I thought they were perfect :green:

I'll give a candy to the fist one who figures out where I got them from ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: knowbuddyuno on July 20, 2007, 02:40:31 PM
Sounds almost like a zerg creature from starcraft to me. Then again, since I haven't played SC in years, I'm probably just imagining it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MrGrendel on July 20, 2007, 09:15:59 PM
I'd like it if there were alternative ways of getting a captured hero back. For instance, spending a bit of influence to have allied forces attempt a rescue, or the use of bribe money to arrange an "escape," etc.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 20, 2007, 10:35:59 PM
Well, the model doesn't have to be super detailed, the texturing shouldn't be hard either. Octo hasn't been around much lately, but I'm sure he could whip a good model in a day ;)
How 'bout Triglav? he's a good modeler? Gah, I think there are tons of potential modelers running here. If we want a flying Nazgul, I'll texture it gladly if nobody else steps up..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 21, 2007, 01:03:42 AM
Sounds almost like a zerg creature from starcraft to me. Then again, since I haven't played SC in years, I'm probably just imagining it.

No candy for you, sorry :P
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on July 21, 2007, 03:22:42 AM
Could it possibly be the Ringwraith scream from the movies?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 21, 2007, 05:03:32 AM
Okay, on the map there's a little area for each town (which is defined relative to the position of the name of the town on the map, rather than fixed on the map; took me the longest time to figure that out.  But I digress) which, if you click in, will send your party on a beeline for the town.

I *really* wish that little area weren't so little.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 21, 2007, 01:52:09 PM
Could it possibly be the Ringwraith scream from the movies?

No, it isn't.

Better to end it here; we don't want to spam this topic and I ate the candy already :P
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Bloid on July 22, 2007, 02:06:53 AM
aren't the fell beasts described length wise? they're supposed to be dragons? I always thought of them as giant featherless vultures..

They never see them completely in full view, but they would seem to be dragons from the description. A sinuous neck is the only thing I remember for sure.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell_beast#Description_and_origin
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MrGrendel on July 22, 2007, 01:32:04 PM
Many games I end up with tons and tons of money... what do you guys do with all of it?

Anyway, I think it would be nice if there were more ways to spend money later on - for instance...



1. This I'd already suggested: bribes to arrange "escapes" for a captured hero... perhaps the amount depending on your current character's level.

2. Donating to different faction's coffers - this is done at the faction's leaders (Saruman, Theoden, etc) and has two effects: First, it spawns an army unit (from scouts to hosts, depending on how much money was spent) and also gives you some influence points.

3. Raising short-term mercenaries. This creates a small war-band that follows your party around for X days and you can command it without using influence points. Lets you temporarily get around your party size limit but they dissappear again once the number of days are up.

4. Services in capital cities: trainers, others. For instance, like the medic, you can go to the sergeant and have him train all your troops with experience while you are there... not sure what else you could have.

5. Insurgents... you could spend money at an enemy city to fund these elements. After 3 or so days, a rebel army pops up (the size depending on your charisma score and/or how much you spend) and is hostile to the city's regular armies. (Not necessarily allied with you, however.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 22, 2007, 01:40:34 PM
- bribes, mercenaries and rebels are things totally NOT fitting ME in general. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MrGrendel on July 22, 2007, 01:51:37 PM
- bribes, mercenaries and rebels are things totally NOT fitting ME in general. Just my opinion.

Well, they seemed fitting for Tolkien's work. Incidentally, your army consists of mercenaries, bribes are as old as prostitutes, and rebels, well... the rebellion of the Noldor, the Kin-Strife in Gondor, MELKOR, or maybe a quote for you: "First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together." Tolkien's work had plenty of all of these. (Ok, granted, I don't think he talked about prostitutes much, but bribes are synonymous with corruption, and he definitely had a good bunch of that going on.)  :P

Edit: But to be sure, I don't think you should be able to, say, run up and bribe Eomer, or such. I'm thinking more along the lines of some crummy little prison guard. And lots and lots of money. Etc.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ebu Deyyus on July 22, 2007, 02:24:52 PM
i'd prefer, after isengard falls that saruman pops in Shire and messes up there(firstly put  a Shire and hobbits)  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on July 22, 2007, 10:45:37 PM
have golum walk around the world map and you can fight him for his fish ><!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on July 23, 2007, 02:38:32 AM
have golum walk around the world map and you can fight him for his fish ><!

I'd rather have golum as a kind of pet thing that follows you in battle and carries your inventory with him so you don't have to go back to the start to change any weapons/amour that you want to.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Nightrider on July 23, 2007, 09:52:01 AM
IIRC there was a add-on you could use that would get the inventory chest to follow you round the battlefield.  It was for Native though, I've no idea what has happened to it over on Taleworlds.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MrGrendel on July 23, 2007, 12:44:03 PM
1. This I'd already suggested: bribes to arrange "escapes" for a captured hero... perhaps the amount depending on your current character's level.

[snip]

5. Insurgents... you could spend money at an enemy city to fund these elements. After 3 or so days, a rebel army pops up (the size depending on your charisma score and/or how much you spend) and is hostile to the city's regular armies. (Not necessarily allied with you, however.)

Hmm, regarding this... could tie that into some new traits: People who find it "unheroic" to bribe and raise insurgents can choose not to use these options and get a trait, whereas people who use all the "tricks" available also get a trait... Cunning and Stalwart for the tricky/honest people, respectively? (Maybe then we should add in some more options... since there is a stealth mission to rescue allies, how about a mission where one option is to assassinate someone?)  >:D

there is one somewhere in there. I may do more with the stealth mechanic later.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 23, 2007, 12:47:19 PM
I have a suggestion:remove shops and looting,you should get items by rising in rank and no need for looting,companions would use your previuos eqiupment or the player could get items as rewards for completing missions
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MrGrendel on July 23, 2007, 01:15:02 PM
How hard would it be to set the game so you could polish up/orc-filthify your looted orc gear or rohan gear, respectively? I don't see why any orc wouldn't grab a nice rohan chain shirt if it was good steel... but would it be nice and polished and have the white on green rohan horse on it after a few days? I rather doubt it...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 23, 2007, 01:27:57 PM
How hard would it be to set the game so you could polish up/orc-filthify your looted orc gear or rohan gear, respectively? I don't see why any orc wouldn't grab a nice rohan chain shirt if it was good steel... but would it be nice and polished and have the white on green rohan horse on it after a few days? I rather doubt it...

You would have to retexture them all, but (and it has been suggested before) it would be a great touch. I always have orcs running around dressed in fancy tabards.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Casimir109 on July 23, 2007, 02:43:55 PM
I have a suggestion:remove shops and looting,you should get items by rising in rank and no need for looting,companions would use your previuos eqiupment or the player could get items as rewards for completing missions

I don't agree entirely (no need to remove shops/looting), but I like the idea of additionally being rewarded with items as rank is increased. Playing 2.3.1 as an elf, mounts are scarce (which wasn't such a bad thing after I adjusted from 2.3) -- receiving a mount. It is plausible that elven horses were rarer than common mounts in a Tolkien world. In fact, I think mounts for elves should be just above the availability of those in 2.3.1 -> very rare.

While I am mentioning rank, I thought it would be a decent feature to allow high ranking officers to temporarily recruit their own army's parties. So let's say I'm an elf who has received the rank of 'amon brennan foo bar' and I am highly respected etc. Then I find I'm being tailed by a greater host, so I grab the nearest party of Rivendell scouts and sort of commandeer them so they don't run away from the greater host, but instead fight with me. It's sort of a battlefield influence, where your own kith/kin would follow you into a battle where you are vastly outnumbered. I wouldn't mind if it used influence points, or cost me additional influence points if I lost the battle (and the scouts got slaughtered). It just seems a little silly when 4-5 small parties are all running from a greater host, despite making some pretty good odds when their numbers are an aggregate. And the glue to hold those parties together could be the higher ranking officer.

I should add that when I say commandeer, maybe it could be implemented by having only one world map icon (yours), but the party information shows 2 columns? I'm less aware of the delineation between mod and game engine, so I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MrGrendel on July 23, 2007, 04:09:50 PM
Yeah, the problem with groups is that the algorhythm to determine "fight or flight" only compares "my number of combat troops" to "their number of combat troops." What it should do is compare "our number of combat troops in the vicinity" to "their number of combat troops in the vicinity." I don't know if this is something hard-coded and out of a modder's reach, though... really, too, if you order a unit to follow you, you'd except them to also follow you into battle if you attack something. Would it be possible to check for following units (nearby) before battle closes, and force them to enter battle first, if that makes sense? That way you could join battle with them together.

I also think that influence costs should be more relative to the class of the unit you're ordering, compared to your rank and army size. Let's say I have a few dozen warg riders and white hand riders, am a lauded commander, decked out in dragonscale and weapons from the Isengard armory... and am trying to order a tiny group of grunts around... I don't think it should really cost any influence points at all. A great host of a couple hundred men? Sure, that should stay the way it is.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Forral on July 23, 2007, 04:48:43 PM
I've just got a minor suggestion for the Arena.

I've heard suggestions before of removing the archers because of the shield bug - but I think that might just make it a tad boring. Instead I suggest replacing the archers with some type of skirmishers. Say Shortsword and a somekind of throwing weapon, with a low amount. Like a few javelins, or a bunch of throwing stones.

Those would not prove impossible obstacles for characters using two-handed weapons, whereas shields (When they are fixed) would be highly useful for them. It would also go miles towards making the gauntlet matches in the arena actually possible to win without reducing the damage settings.

-Forral-
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 23, 2007, 05:34:27 PM
Well, the model doesn't have to be super detailed, the texturing shouldn't be hard either. Octo hasn't been around much lately, but I'm sure he could whip a good model in a day ;)
How 'bout Triglav? he's a good modeler? Gah, I think there are tons of potential modelers running here. If we want a flying Nazgul, I'll texture it gladly if nobody else steps up..

Ill try to get one organized after I get this one out. Im going to try and line up some graphics work and then take a break for a bit.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on July 23, 2007, 10:43:55 PM
This might be a 'tad' bit difficult to do...but wouldn't it be nice to have little parties spawn from the map that go directly to allied great hosts to reinforce them? =3
I really don't feel like training guys and looking for great hosts for an opportunity to ditch 'em just to help my faction out ><
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 23, 2007, 11:30:21 PM
This might be a 'tad' bit difficult to do...but wouldn't it be nice to have little parties spawn from the map that go directly to allied great hosts to reinforce them? =3
I really don't feel like training guys and looking for great hosts for an opportunity to ditch 'em just to help my faction out ><

Just have larger parties occasionally go to a nearby faction city, drop off prisoners and get reinforcements.

Have to be careful, however, that they can't reinforce indefinitely ... have to make them draw from some troop pool.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: knowbuddyuno on July 23, 2007, 11:35:39 PM
I did a search for this idea and couldn't find it, forgive me if it's been suggested already:

  Why can't we set factions to the full range of strengths? Why can't I have an Unmatched Moria/Imladris war raging in the North while a spent and wavering Mordor/Easterlings/Corsairs/Haradrim alliance battles against a weakened Gondor? We can already set faction strengths lower than normal, so I don't see accuracy to the books or the potential for breaking game balance being a problem. I don't know how hard it'd be, but if it's feasible and easy enough, I think it'd be a nice option.

I don't think this next one would work, but I'd like to suggest it anyway:

  Could the player have the option of setting which faction is a member of which team? I imagine this may be a bit too far into the "Sandbox" realm of gameplay, but I think it'd be interesting to have Rohan and Gondor start as mortal enemies, in addition to the wars they fight against Isengard and Mordor. I imagine this one would be a much bigger pain to implement than the above suggestion, and setting up the possibility for each faction to be its own team in a global free-for-all would probably be a nightmare, but again, I think it'd be enjoyable, and would boost the already high replayability of the mod.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on July 24, 2007, 01:00:51 PM
The 1st suggestion above would be quite nice as it'd mean we'd be able to have a little bit more.. well fun.... less babysitting and scrambling to find and save my great hosts being ganged up on 5 enemy hosts.. more just wondering around fighting random battles.

Also... could heroes captured by Dol Guldur... please go to Dol Guldur? Even if you just shove the same minas morgul scenes in for now pending further art... dragging my elven heroes all they way to Minas Morgul is a tad annoying when they were captured in a battle with a dol guldur host, right next to Dol Guldur...

Are there plans for a few more Mirkwood settlements? Don't seem to be many of these guys, and Thranduil etc aren't present at all...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 24, 2007, 03:25:57 PM
im with the new settlements for the mirkwood elves and extra heroes,i would like to see thranduil and maybe AW could add legolas and boromir?since the fellowship is non-existant anyway,no harm in having them.Boromir and Legolas could work like Celeborn,instead of the Lady Galadriel/Steward Denethor/King Thranduil jioning the great hosts Boromir/Legolas would
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on July 24, 2007, 03:52:59 PM
Why would Boromir be in an elven encampment.....? Legolas is off with Aragorn and Gimli, and by this time Boromir is either dead, or close to his exit in the story.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 24, 2007, 04:26:08 PM
I had in mind that Boromir would be in Minas Tirith with Denethor.As i said there is no fellowship of the rings in the mod,so the exception could be made?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 24, 2007, 04:29:31 PM
Nah, what's the point? It seems kinda lame to me...they are somewhere, just not visible on the map.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 24, 2007, 05:49:44 PM
well Glorfindel is in Lothorien...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on July 24, 2007, 06:26:10 PM
well Glorfindel is in Lothorien...

well Faramir is in Henneth annun...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on July 25, 2007, 02:46:31 AM
Just had an idea to slightly incorporate oliphants into the mix.  You wouldn't be able to kill them or anything but at least they'll be in battles.  I was thinking you could "siege" them.  A Haradrim patrol is "garrisoned" in a "city" which is really an oliphant and when you attack it all the Haradrim are up on the oliphant throwing stuff at you and you have to get up there or shoot them down somehow.   I was thinking, if it's possible, to have the haradrim, oliphant patrol still moving and attacking people on the map, kind of like a moving city.  I don't think I explained it very well but it's all I can think of.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 25, 2007, 08:07:36 AM
Have the oliphant as a fort,but there is no way up and if you don't have archers your screwd
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 25, 2007, 08:53:04 AM
When you play on the side of evil it would be cool if the Mountain Goblin quest could be changed somewhat.

Here is my suggestion.

1)  When playing as evil you should be able to knock out the Mountain Goblin and Tribal Goblins and then force them into service.

So basically you could recruit them from your prisoners list.

2)  After defeating a certain number of Mountain Goblins there should be an elite party of Mountain Goblins that would include a Goblin leader. 

Once you defeat this leader then the Goblins would come under the sway of evil.

Basically, the starting quest would be to force the Mountain Goblins to submit to the will of Mordor.

It would add flavor and it would make the quest more unique to the side of evil.  It also fits well into the pre-war period of the game.

The final battle with the Goblin leader could either just be in the regular battle scene, or you could do it as a solo mission (I.E. like it was done in the Neandertal mod when you fight the king of your tribe).


This would also work for the Bandits.  Right now there is a problem with the Bandits sometimes causing two friendly units to fight with each other.  It would be kind of cool if there was a quest to turn the bandits one way or the other. 

- Livonya


Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 25, 2007, 09:01:38 AM
hey, Livonya, stop stealing my suggestions!! :DD That's exactly one of my suggestions from the loong list I'm writing right now.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 25, 2007, 10:32:47 AM
I like both Livonya suggestions!

In general, "neutral" battle groups and villages look strange and puzzling to me, and I think they need a mixture of reworking and/or direct removal (clearly, only if good ideas like these are available, either to make them more fitting in the scenario, and/or to substitute the gameplay function which they currently have).

Merkir: looking forward to your "long list of suggestions", but, did you consider posting it in a more accessible and visible place?
To me (I am using default settings) the "reserved place" appears at the bottom of the page, plus it is page, what, 48 already?
Maybe just post it in a separated fresh thread, and put a link to that thread in the "reserved place"?
I understand this thread is pinned, of course (hence the link).

Myself I am considering myself to do this: write a separated personal web-page about a specific suggestion I have in mind, and put just a link here. The separated page would have more formatting freedom, and can go in details, etc, even have sublinks if needed, and can reflect the further suggestions and comments made by people here.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 25, 2007, 10:44:56 AM
I guess my only complaint about the complicated mountain goblins suggestion is that there are huge, glaring holes in the game still especially on the evil side. It would be nice to get some of the crappier missions taken out for the evil side since isengard especially ends up with no decent missions any time you play, for example.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 25, 2007, 11:22:17 AM
I'll post it here and we might put some more things on the same subject on a separate webpage later. I don't have the time really (now.)

Here goes :) (it'll be a sort of unorganized in the order I thought about it.)

1) Some polishing to the Auxillia system and the lords leading hosts.
2) One suggestion to make the start of the game more interesting and fun (and epic.)
3) Naval battles. Allow the player join sea battles between Gondorians and the Corsairs and Haradrim. Some procentual chances of meeting a ship and a ship battle scene. Should be simple to create. There could be traits for this..Naval commander and such. Of course I would love to see gondorian marines. Lightly armored and armed dudes with high athletics and bonuses while figting at sea. Sinking enemy ships could lower the rate of corsair reinforcements..
4) Minor quest suggestions:
- before the war starts, Gríma Wormtongue should be the one giving quests in Edoras. Not Theoden.
5) Trait suggestions:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 25, 2007, 11:41:37 AM
Wow, good ideas :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 25, 2007, 11:55:46 AM
thanks, I had this enlightened moment at work. And because from the 8 hours I should be working I worked for like 2 minutes today, I had a lot of time to write it all down ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: knowbuddyuno on July 25, 2007, 12:35:28 PM
This suggestion is born from the fact that most of my games are played with the highest recovery chances (I like the more epic feel of longer games), and as a result I often end up riding by burial mound after burial mound as I go from city to city.

 I'd like to see heroes escape from lost battles on occasion. Perhaps if Haldir's great host was getting thrashed, for example, a small party would spawn with Haldir and his five best men, who are trying to get him to safety while the others die to save him. This party spawn could occur during or after the battle (I'd prefer after, so that the group that killed his host would have a chance of catching him and killing him anyway. It'd also make the presence of scouting parties more significant to the battle, as they'd have a better chance to catch the fleeing hero. If the hero gets knocked unconscious in battle, it could make the event more likely, since a noble's retainers would place his safety above their own. If the hero gets back to his city of origin, he can be recruited/give missions/lead a host later. Perhaps the opposing army would dispatch ten or fifteen men to catch the fleeing hero. I'm not sure how much of this is possible (my knowledge of Python is nonexistant), but I'd like to see heroes play a more dynamic role in the war than "ride out with host, be captured or killed." I like that they ride out with armies, I'd just like them to return in safety once in a while.

 Do heroes make a difference in troop performance in battle? In the calculations of battle losses, do their troops take fewer losses or inflict greater losses upon the enemy? If not, that'd be a nice change too.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 25, 2007, 12:37:13 PM
That's a good idea. I think a lot of the hero mystique is that they manage to survive longer than normal.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 25, 2007, 12:39:43 PM
I would like seeing unconscious badly wounded heroes dragged from the battle..that's cool. But escaping a battle even if you're losing..not very heroic :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: knowbuddyuno on July 25, 2007, 12:51:35 PM
I'd be fine if it were only unconscious heroes who were taken home to heal (Perhaps heroes could have a chance of escaping instead of dying if they're "killed" in battle? I imagine this happens with capture already.) The idea behind living heroes escaping with their most loyal soldiers was that the soldiers take their leader out of the fight by any means necessary, including force. It could be reflected by having the fleeing hero unconsious even if he was battle-ready before the escape party left (his men knocked him out, threw him on a horse, and rode away as fast as possible to keep him from stupidly yielding to his desire to die alongside his soldiers).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 25, 2007, 01:05:40 PM
Those are good ideas merlkir, some I'd already put in, like the various scarred states (in some form) and I was actually working on a major battles thing early last year before I lost interest. Up until 2.3 there were still some remnants in the script.

All of the stuff dealing with the interaction of parties is quite easy to do now but Im still not quite in the war revamp mood. After this next version is out, I'll see if its war revamp time.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on July 25, 2007, 03:05:43 PM
Merl, those are some brilliant suggestions.

The starting battle for training is just fantastic. Like in the EA games, where you could begin as Isildur all leveled up.

And the language thing would be perfect. Add a little adventure into the game. Ways to learn languages could be:


You could take some of the rarer and most powerful relics in the armouries and make them the finding from the quest. For example, if a Dwarven camp is implemented, you could go there at any time, but when you've unlocked all the triggers, you suddenly "uncover" a Dwarven tomb in a dungeon mini-game where you pass through an old mine killing goblins and "wicked spirits". You'd have to be really, really good to get through it alive, of course.

It'd be an excellent super quest to do after the war of the ring is one for either side.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 25, 2007, 03:41:59 PM
I think it would be better to go on quest for weapons in Moria,Isengard and Minas Morgul(ruined city of gondor,maybe the lords blade is still there?) and for the badies Minas Tirith,Hornburg and IDK probably a dwarf settlement
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 25, 2007, 03:49:15 PM
It all sounds too complicated and troublesome. 


Just getting the powerful items from certain combats alone would be much better than just buying them - and maybe having the rewards come after certain factions are defeated, etc.

Say you defeat isengard and then nex time you talk to a lord you get a choice of 3 different items you can take.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on July 25, 2007, 06:15:47 PM
I would be happy if the major factions regarded Brigands as enemies. At the moment they join the brigands in fighting an enemy unit, but not a friendly unit fighting the Brigands. I've seen Brigand units with tens of prisoners from Gondor caravans because Gondorian military units will not attack them, which is daft. Plus when my Isengarders kill those Brigands I get my pick of the Gondorian prisoners! This does not happen if my Isengarders whack a Mordor unit, though they do get "neutral" units like brigands, farmers and caravan masters.

Not sure whether this should come under "Suggestions", "Bugs" or "Balance Issues".
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Oubliette on July 25, 2007, 10:09:15 PM
Fantastic suggestions Merl. The early pre-scripted battles would add a lot to the early game, which needs a bit of work. Though, I'd suggest that the player shouldn't be involved in anything too epic, especially if there are no pre-scripted battles later on in the game - it has to be something small, with enough excitement to draw the player in. It could be something connected to an epic battle, but the player would have to be auxiliary to it, rather than in the centre. They can still have an important job or part to play to ensure that the more epic battle goes as planned, and it can still be exciting if scripted well. The excitement should peak a little at the beginning, but it ought to raise gradually in a sort of crescendo. You don't want to ejaculate prematurely, so to speak.

Futhermore, one thing I've noticed is that while the beginning doesn't draw you into the game with the right amount of ease and alacrity, the excitement in the later stages of the game begins to ebb away once you've got your enemies on the run, which causes me to lose interest. If you add pre-scripted battles in the beginning, you might as well go all the way and add a scripted battle when crushing an enemy faction. Like I said before, the game should build to a crescendo, and the factions should go out with a bang, not a whimper.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Forral on July 26, 2007, 04:30:04 AM
I noticed that too. I'm having most of my fun while my home faction fights desperatly for survival, on the brink of being wiped out(Gondor with all 4 mordor hosts). But, as soon as I take a few factions down and grind mordor down a bit I find that it's not very involving anymore.

Maybe when a faction is spent and wavering they could throw somekind of all out effort, and amass a more powerful host than normal - Last March, sorta thing. And when you take this massive host out, the faction is crushed.

Probably something for the war revamp, but I'm totally with Oubliette.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 06:51:43 AM
yes, I was thinking something along the lines as Oubliette wrote.
As for the crushing, I've posted an idea about it like...twice. Big scripted sieges or something.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 07:46:20 AM
And again we come back to the siege thing, that sieges can't be added until sieges can be added.  Be that one big siege or several smaller ones, it's still a code problem.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 26, 2007, 07:58:02 AM
Nice ones, Merlkir.

I am a little afraid that scripted stuff at the beginning would make every game too similar to each other; in general I would go for random stuff instead. Still, better and more pre-war events/missions are really needed.

But...

Naval battles? As in, ship VS ship? Wow! Am I missing something here? Is that really doable?
How do you even reach the battle location? How do you model the battlefield?
In a game system where water is unpassable on the global map, and always walkable (and at most 0.5 m deep) in the battlefield...
where there is no space for complex battlefields, no moving platforms, no complex AI pathfinding algorithms (AI is just really Move-in-range, Attack...), (edit:) no swimming, no drowning... wouldn't that be overly difficult do mod in, or suck? It really must be that I miss something here.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 08:05:23 AM
The Pirates mod has an as-of-yet not fully developed system of ship-to-ship warfare.  It's a huge project to code, as that is the bulk of the unique points of the Pirates mod... and it is, as of yet, full of strange quirks.  However, it has been proven that such a system is possible (however inconvenient).

I suppose that is what the suggestion was about.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 08:24:53 AM
And again we come back to the siege thing, that sieges can't be added until sieges can be added.  Be that one big siege or several smaller ones, it's still a code problem.

I know, that's why I put this into suggestions for the next versions (hopefully with the war revamp and for the new MaB).

Nice ones, Merlkir.

I am a little afraid that scripted stuff at the beginning would make every game too similar to each other; in general I would go for random stuff instead. Still, better and more pre-war events/missions are really needed.

But...

Naval battles? As in, ship VS ship? Wow! Am I missing something here? Is that really doable?
How do you even reach the battle location? How do you model the battlefield?
In a game system where water is unpassable on the global map, and always walkable (and at most 0.5 m deep) in the battlefield...
where there is no space for complex battlefields, no moving platforms, no complex AI pathfinding algorithms (AI is just really Move-in-range, Attack...), (edit:) no swimming, no drowning... wouldn't that be overly difficult do mod in, or suck? It really must be that I miss something here.

try Pirates. I wouldn't go for the top view ship battles, just for the ship crew vs. crew combat scene. I thought of it like a smaller feature just to add the flavour. You pick an option to go on sea in one of the ports and by chance you might meet a corsair ship. Then there's the battle scene. Which kinda works, Yoshi even managed to have those ropes you can swing and land on the other deck :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 08:26:55 AM
Nice ones, Merlkir.

I am a little afraid that scripted stuff at the beginning would make every game too similar to each other; in general I would go for random stuff instead. Still, better and more pre-war events/missions are really needed.


well, the beginning IS always the same. For most of the people. They do arena and they do the goblin quest. Prescripted events will eventually end up the same. That's what they are..
I've thought of some variation to the starting battles to avoid repetitive boredom though. I'll post it when it's relevant = AW feels like making some ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 26, 2007, 09:43:24 AM
well, the beginning IS always the same. For most of the people. They do arena and they do the goblin quest.

I don't agree with that.

I don't do the arena, at least not in the beginning.  And I don't do the Goblins right away either.

I normally travel to all the cities to get quests and I look for battles to join.  Once I have built up a bit of coin then I will get some troops and start working on the Goblins.  I don't like to do them too early as I think they are pretty hard.  I prefer joining on going battles until I get at least 12 men in my army, and enough coin to re-inforce them.

So I would prefer random events rather than pre-set events as I think there should be different strokes for different folks.

- Livonya
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 09:46:26 AM
I don't have any problems with random events. But these battles happened. I still think it would be good to have them. At least as an option.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 26, 2007, 09:54:42 AM
I am not saying that I wouldn't want some pre-set battles.

I am just saying I wouldn't want them at the very start. of every game.

When I say I prefer "random" events I mean I prefer they happen at different times in each game.

I like scripted battles, I think that idea is cool, i just wouldn't want them to be forced on me at the beginning of each game.

For instance a scriptted battle that takes place when the war starts is fine with me as I can control when the war starts.  But a scriptted battle that takes place at the very beginning of every game wouldn't be that much fun as it might start to seem like a mindless speed bump getting in the way of playing the game.

Of course this is all conjecture.  If there was a pre-set battle and it was fun every time then of course I would change my mind.

- Livonya

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 10:01:37 AM
well, If I didn't stress that enough, I meant for the starter battle to happen around lvl 5-8, basically just before the war starts. And the player would be summoned. Not forced. He could probably refuse. Optional I also said ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 10:15:17 AM
A more playable solution than scripted battles is more variable locations.  The rescue missions, for example, are unique because of their setting.  If more battles near particular locations had unique settings (buildings, caves, whatever), it would still get the effect of a "special" combat situation, but without the arbitrary time limit (i.e. you could hit their camp whenever you thought you were ready to handle it).  Even if you couldn't yet actually "take over" a target, it might be a sure way to get into a fight.  Mission: "hit the x camp at y and cause as much confusion and damage as possible."  or "raid the x camp for supplies" (the supplies being some pre-arranged objects which you then have to haul back)

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 10:17:30 AM
If there was a way to put a battle to a custom built scene like Osgilliath or before city gates, I would certainly suggest it. (I believe someone already did.) I don't know if that can be done though.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 10:23:14 AM
If there was a way to put a battle to a custom built scene like Osgilliath or before city gates, I would certainly suggest it. (I believe someone already did.) I don't know if that can be done though.

Sure it "can" be done ... the trick is making it flow into the game reasonably.  Without a proper siege system, certain battles could just come out looking odd. 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 10:31:39 AM
what's so hard about it? you find near Osgilliath, you ge an Osgilliath battle scene. Lots of ruins in gondorian style with river in the middle...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 10:38:42 AM
what's so hard about it? you find near Osgilliath, you ge an Osgilliath battle scene. Lots of ruins in gondorian style with river in the middle...

Ruined cities are an easy one.  However, things like outside of some city gates ... the question comes to mind, why would you be fighting there?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 10:50:02 AM
hm..just...because? :) you meet an army near MT, you should probably be able to see MT. But...it's not that important really.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 26, 2007, 10:57:17 AM
Actually, now that I think more about it.  There is something that would be really cool.

What if there were 2 or 3 pre-set battles that were always taking place at the beginning of the game.

These could be at special locations.

Neither side could flee.

No other roaming groups could join.

They would fight to the death (though if possible it would be cool if the speed of these battles was slower than normal so the player would have time to get to them before they ended).

Then the player could get quests or notifications about these battles and they could choose to go and join them.

This is how I always start by going around looking for battles to join.  I would love to have the option to choose to join some epic battles in key locations.

- Livonya

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 11:10:33 AM
what's the difference from what I've suggested?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Livonya on July 26, 2007, 11:39:10 AM
what's the difference from what I've suggested?

I don't know.  I can't read your mind.  From what you wrote I thought you were implying something else.  I could be wrong.   And apparently I must be wrong since you are saying there isn't a difference.

I was under the impression that these missions would be forced on the player at the beginning of the game.  And that I don't like.

If that wasn't what you were suggesting then it seems we are in agreement.

I like things that are different each time in some small ways.

- Livonya
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 06:37:40 PM
"The beginning" is a poor time for a scripted battle, and especially a poor time for many scripted battles.  They will feel forced on the player, no matter if they are or not.

A scripted battle (or several) to actually bring down a weakened faction might make sense ... the whole "storm their capital city and finish them off before they recover" routine.  Players could participate in these attacks or not.  Again, however, that really needs the mechanics of a siege to make it look right.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Forral on July 26, 2007, 07:20:22 PM
Nah. I don't quite think "sieges" would fit Last Days.

Unless of course you assume that the actual seige has already been laid. And, you've either broken through the gates and are swarming up through their streets, or swarming unto their walls from seige towers. Hell, even having the defenders sallying out to attack their attackers could work well.

Sitting around, waiting for them to starve to death sounds not-so-fun though. All the other fun parts of seiging seems to be a tad too clunky to reliably intergrate. Like catapuls and trebuchets, or actually smashing the gates with a ram and so on.

I think, if sieges should ever be implemented - Have them skip to the fun parts - personally I think that would be swarming through a broken gate and charging through the streets of the city, as you plough your way ahead into the castle to kill the king - or whatever other ruler.

The sorta quest that would be more about you joining your faction's army for the final push, after they've laid a siege to the city - than doing it yourself.

-Forral-
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: BlackSamurai on July 26, 2007, 08:03:46 PM
add the dwarfs and expand the map past the gap of rohan, there aint alot of cities i think, but u can invent your own. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 26, 2007, 08:42:33 PM
Forral: I take it you haven't seen the videos of the moving rams smashing enemy gate or haven't read the code to make your guys carry and erect ladders at the walls. All that is possible NOW. I think sieges are very much fitting TLD. Namely one at least...I can see Helm's Deep clearly :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Forral on July 26, 2007, 09:09:22 PM
Eh? In a way that works, without guys stuck everywhere, falling through walls, archers dancing in before eachother and all that?

And nope, I hadn't seen that. I saw some screens on Holy War, and assumed that it was mainly static stuff.

-Forral-
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on July 26, 2007, 09:20:22 PM
Isn't there more of an easier way to make "sieges" such as, have a normal battle with your troops spawn on your side and your enemies on the other, obviously starting at their city gates, I mean, there's already a front gate at Minis Tirith, why not fight there? If you kill enough troops, they might decide to charge out of the city, opening the gates 'for you' so you don't need to carry a battering ram all the way from mount doom  :P
the rest could be in-city fighting, which should be easy since you already got the maps and stuff for rescuing heroes. Eventually, it would lead you to the top and you have the opportuniy to whack of Denethors head >:D

(I'm fighting for gondor, and I have no idea why I wrote that, but I only know of the existance of the Minis Tirith gates and Helms Deep, nothing about the orcish towns, but I really wanna put this idea on paper....even though someone may have suggested it already ><!)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 26, 2007, 10:36:11 PM
Raz over on the Holy War mod is working up a reliable system of siege stuff.  If he ever gets it all together, it might be possible to integrate a city wall attack.  However, it's still kind of choppy at the moment ... so that's a future suggestion, not something that can be easily or quickly integrated.  He just recently convinced troops to climb siege towers in any coordinated form ... let's not get the wagon ahead of the horse.

Maybe "siege" was not the correct word, as that implies the entire process of setting up and blockading an area as well as storming the walls.  (Fine for heavily strategic/historical mods, but not really the target audience for TLD.)  I think "assault on a fortification" and the ensuing "urban environment combat" is the operational concept here.  HW is integrating both a siege model and the actual wall assault ... TLD probably would want to skip straight to the assault.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on July 27, 2007, 12:41:40 AM
I read somewhere Armagan and team are working on the sieges... better wait for that, no?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 27, 2007, 01:17:45 AM
I read somewhere Armagan and team are working on the sieges... better wait for that, no?

And better scripted action commands, which are a must for keeping archers on a wall.  And many other improvements to the AI which should make such things easier to set up.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on July 27, 2007, 02:45:11 AM
heh, cair andros would be perfect to act as a "castle" of sorts, didnt it switch hands between gondor and Mordor several times?

or maybe its just a ford.......  ::) I dont remember  :P
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 27, 2007, 07:27:00 AM
no, I believe it has been fought for.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 27, 2007, 08:13:39 AM
when the orcs started attacking,but primaraly it was gondor's city
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 27, 2007, 08:27:38 AM
There was a discussion started on the HW thread about enemy morale, that came to an interesting and applicable proposition.  In the gap between battle sequences, when the player is given the option of (attack, order troops to attack, and leave/surrender) ... the enemy force does not have a chance to disengage.

It needs to run a check to see if they attack or retreat (presumably the same one that determines if they attack or run on the map), and another for party speed (again, presumably the same one that determines if the player gets the "leave" option.  If they want to leave and can, it would go straight to the loot screen (maybe a message screen, "The enemy breaks and runs" "continue").  Then, their force (what's left of it) would still be on the map after the battle, like with the "leave" option.

That should be a priority ... every battle should not drag on to the last man standing.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Kohlrabi on July 27, 2007, 08:42:51 AM
Long time forum stalker, first time poster.

Just wanted to start by saying "Thank You", for this awesome mod, and all the work you put into it.
Most of my suggestions has already been covered by other posters, but I have one on my own:

Would it be possible to make the bandit camp salesman sell some crossbows?

While crossbows not being a big part of the game, it would be nice to be able to buy them as gondor/rohan too.
Just for variation, thinking of playing a merchant-type character.

Edit:
One more thing:
As it is now, it seems like capture/wounding of your NPC's are triggered by you being knocked out.
Would it be possible to trigger wounds, as an example, from them being knocked out instead?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 27, 2007, 08:46:11 AM
Map Revamp!

Everything that I am suggesting here is purely cosmetics. No effects on gameplay.

Destroyed cityes? That death-moulds thing showed me that it is possible to make dynamic changes of map contents during the game. Cool! I wonder if this can be used to change the Map icons to reflect factions that fell down. Like, abandoned Haradrim camps without Mumaks - (edit) or with Mumak skeletons or remains; ruined cities; black & burned Minas Tirith; ruined Isengard, maybe bogged with water  (... yes, we all know the tower still stands); breached, partially blown up, scorched walls of Hornburg (Elm's deep); etc. Modellers?
Edit: just to be clear: I am talking about changing the map icons only, not to do full (walkable) scenes.

Names on the map? I would just love to read Rohan, Gondor, Mordor, etc, where it belonged on the map, with a similar font and size and letter dispositions as the original map of the book (the one we all have in mind). Technically, each letter should be a separated object (is it possible to have customized objects on the map that do not even trigger a pop-up box on-mouse-over, like trees?): a quad laying flat with the proper angle with a one-letter semi transparent texture. Font color should be such that it does not pop up too much, i.e. just a darker shade of green (on green background). Clearly, if alpha blending textures are possible, then they are just black letter with low alpha values.

Thinner rivers? I wonder if rivers should be made thinner, around 60% of what they are now, or even less. They would look better proportioned that way.


or, even...

Total revamp? I am not sure about this one myself (about whether it is doable, and whether it would look good).
But a major revamp of the look of the map could be attempted, making it look a lot more like the "original" brownish yellow map. That would include using all "old paper" colors, and redoing all the icons (trees, even cityes). Hill regions, and impassable mountains, should be depicted similarly to what a forest is now, that is, with a multitude of single small objects (each representing a curved hill, or a pointed mountain, respectively). All icons (trees, hills, mountains) should be flat "impostors" (aka "billboards") standing up and always oriented toward the viewer (a very old trick - I wonder if it is possible for a mod to implement that). Each impostor should be a black-bordered single texture (with irregular boundaries, naturally). For cityes, there are several possibilities, including making them a "billboard clouds" (e.g. one billboard per tower, oriented toward the viewer as well), or leaving them as flat drawings on the map, or leave the current 3D version - maybe just change the colour. Edit: Or, just a single flat billboard per city, a little like a pop-up book. Rivers: a lot thinner than they are now, and dark brown. Edit: I am a little worried for cityes like the White one, Hornsburg, Osgiliath, etc that currently merge very beautifully with the current map. A lot of work in any case, I reckon.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 27, 2007, 08:46:26 AM
There was a discussion started on the HW thread about enemy morale, that came to an interesting and applicable proposition.  In the gap between battle sequences, when the player is given the option of (attack, order troops to attack, and leave/surrender) ... the enemy force does not have a chance to disengage.

It needs to run a check to see if they attack or retreat (presumably the same one that determines if they attack or run on the map), and another for party speed (again, presumably the same one that determines if the player gets the "leave" option.  If they want to leave and can, it would go straight to the loot screen (maybe a message screen, "The enemy breaks and runs" "continue").  Then, their force (what's left of it) would still be on the map after the battle, like with the "leave" option.

That should be a priority ... every battle should not drag on to the last man standing.


The problem is that the player would never get any good loot if that were the case. You only get loot for the guys you kill in the immediate battle before the loot screen. You could change that too, but overal it's way too much work compared to the other features in the mod so don't hold your breath.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 27, 2007, 09:12:33 AM
There was a discussion started on the HW thread about enemy morale, that came to an interesting and applicable proposition.  In the gap between battle sequences, when the player is given the option of (attack, order troops to attack, and leave/surrender) ... the enemy force does not have a chance to disengage.

It needs to run a check to see if they attack or retreat (presumably the same one that determines if they attack or run on the map), and another for party speed (again, presumably the same one that determines if the player gets the "leave" option.  If they want to leave and can, it would go straight to the loot screen (maybe a message screen, "The enemy breaks and runs" "continue").  Then, their force (what's left of it) would still be on the map after the battle, like with the "leave" option.

That should be a priority ... every battle should not drag on to the last man standing.


The problem is that the player would never get any good loot if that were the case. You only get loot for the guys you kill in the immediate battle before the loot screen. You could change that too, but overal it's way too much work compared to the other features in the mod so don't hold your breath.

Loot odds should be the same, except that you might have to run an enemy down, and so loot would be from three different battles instead of one big one.

Not to mention, we're talking about a code change ... the loot code can be tweaked with a dozen keystrokes, if that's the only problem.  (I would know ... I spent a week trying to decipher the loot code for ONR, and finally ended up pretty much disabling most of it and putting in something much more arbitrary but infinitely more controllable.... changing the code was easy, but balancing the game around it was a nightmare.)  Variable loot was one of the proposed options to put in the "old man" startup menu anyway.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on July 27, 2007, 09:45:25 AM

Total revamp? I am not sure about this one myself (about whether it is doable, and whether it would look good).
But a major revamp of the look of the map could be attempted, making it look a lot more like the "original" brownish yellow map. That would include using all "old paper" colors, and redoing all the icons (trees, even cityes). Hill regions, and impassable mountains, should be depicted similarly to what a forest is now, that is, with a multitude of single small objects (each representing a curved hill, or a pointed mountain, respectively). All icons (trees, hills, mountains) should be flat "impostors" (aka "billboards") standing up and always oriented toward the viewer (a very old trick - I wonder if it is possible for a mod to implement that). Each impostor should be a black-bordered single texture (with irregular boundaries, naturally). For cityes, there are several possibilities, including making them a "billboard clouds" (e.g. one billboard per tower, oriented toward the viewer as well), or leaving them as flat drawings on the map, or leave the current 3D version - maybe just change the colour. Rivers: a lot thinner than they are now, and dark brown. Edit: I am a little worried for cityes like the White one, Hornsburg, Osgiliath, etc that currently merge very beautifully with the current map. A lot of work in any case, I reckon.

I'm still not sure if I'd like it, but it sounds interesting..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 27, 2007, 10:41:27 AM
Map Revamp!

Everything that I am suggesting here is purely cosmetics. No effects on gameplay.

Destroyed cityes? That death-moulds thing showed me that it is possible to make dynamic changes of map contents during the game. Cool! I wonder if this can be used to change the Map icons to reflect factions that fell down. Like, abandoned Haradrim camps without Mumaks - (edit) or with Mumak skeletons or remains; ruined cities; black & burned Minas Tirith; ruined Isengard, maybe bogged with water  (... yes, we all know the tower still stands); breached, partially blown up, scorched walls of Hornburg (Elm's deep); etc. Modellers?
Edit: just to be clear: I am talking about changing the map icons only, not to do full (walkable) scenes.

Names on the map? I would just love to read Rohan, Gondor, Mordor, etc, where it belonged on the map, with a similar font and size and letter dispositions as the original map of the book (the one we all have in mind). Technically, each letter should be a separated object (is it possible to have customized objects on the map that do not even trigger a pop-up box on-mouse-over, like trees?): a quad laying flat with the proper angle with a one-letter semi transparent texture. Font color should be such that it does not pop up too much, i.e. just a darker shade of green (on green background). Clearly, if alpha blending textures are possible, then they are just black letter with low alpha values.

Thinner rivers? I wonder if rivers should be made thinner, around 60% of what they are now, or even less. They would look better proportioned that way.


or, even...

Total revamp? I am not sure about this one myself (about whether it is doable, and whether it would look good).
But a major revamp of the look of the map could be attempted, making it look a lot more like the "original" brownish yellow map. That would include using all "old paper" colors, and redoing all the icons (trees, even cityes). Hill regions, and impassable mountains, should be depicted similarly to what a forest is now, that is, with a multitude of single small objects (each representing a curved hill, or a pointed mountain, respectively). All icons (trees, hills, mountains) should be flat "impostors" (aka "billboards") standing up and always oriented toward the viewer (a very old trick - I wonder if it is possible for a mod to implement that). Each impostor should be a black-bordered single texture (with irregular boundaries, naturally). For cityes, there are several possibilities, including making them a "billboard clouds" (e.g. one billboard per tower, oriented toward the viewer as well), or leaving them as flat drawings on the map, or leave the current 3D version - maybe just change the colour. Edit: Or, just a single flat billboard per city, a little like a pop-up book. Rivers: a lot thinner than they are now, and dark brown. Edit: I am a little worried for cityes like the White one, Hornsburg, Osgiliath, etc that currently merge very beautifully with the current map. A lot of work in any case, I reckon.

You can't make the rivers thinner.

For LOM I was thinking of trying to make a flat map with one big iceon over it - a hand drawn map. Not sure if it would work, though, due to the way icons are clipped.

You can't change the river's width, but you can change other stuff you mentioned.

For some reason the trees all float in midair at the moment, as well....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 27, 2007, 11:08:26 AM
There was a discussion started on the HW thread about enemy morale, that came to an interesting and applicable proposition.  In the gap between battle sequences, when the player is given the option of (attack, order troops to attack, and leave/surrender) ... the enemy force does not have a chance to disengage.

It needs to run a check to see if they attack or retreat (presumably the same one that determines if they attack or run on the map), and another for party speed (again, presumably the same one that determines if the player gets the "leave" option.  If they want to leave and can, it would go straight to the loot screen (maybe a message screen, "The enemy breaks and runs" "continue").  Then, their force (what's left of it) would still be on the map after the battle, like with the "leave" option.

That should be a priority ... every battle should not drag on to the last man standing.






Loot odds should be the same, except that you might have to run an enemy down, and so loot would be from three different battles instead of one big one.

Not to mention, we're talking about a code change ... the loot code can be tweaked with a dozen keystrokes, if that's the only problem.  (I would know ... I spent a week trying to decipher the loot code for ONR, and finally ended up pretty much disabling most of it and putting in something much more arbitrary but infinitely more controllable.... changing the code was easy, but balancing the game around it was a nightmare.)  Variable loot was one of the proposed options to put in the "old man" startup menu anyway.



If you did the loot with each one it should not be too hard, but chasing down running parties is already the biggest annoyance in M&B. Why accentuate this flaw?

You need to think of things in the abstract. Obviously they would not come at you in small clumps in the first place, but then they are only going to die if they run piecemeal as well.

I suggested before though that after a few rounds if you have the overwhelming advantage they should just surrender or be assumed to simply die. Then you don't get the ridiculous situation where the last 3 guys charage a full company of cavalry on foot.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 27, 2007, 11:10:26 AM


You can't change the river's width, but you can change other stuff you mentioned.

I've read somewhere that you can, but it takes to manually displace a lot of vertices. Anyone?
Cool to know about the rest being possible.
Does that mean that even the "paper-like impostors always facing the viewer" is also possible?


On earliers subjects...

As it is now, it seems like capture/wounding of your NPC's are triggered by you being knocked out.
Would it be possible to trigger wounds, as an example, from them being knocked out instead?

In theory that would make a lot of sense, but from the gameplay point of view the current way is FAR better.
You wouln't getting punished enough as a consequence of being killed on the battlefield. I wouldn't change that bit.

3) Naval battles. Allow the player join sea battles between Gondorians and the Corsairs

That would be amazing. If possible, it should be so that Corsairs can never be crushed until they suffer a major loss at sea (maybe you are given a mission about that). It makes sense that they keep reinforcing themself until you cut their "reinforcements from afar".
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 27, 2007, 11:31:18 AM
@mtarini

Yeah, these are all good ideas. The ruined icons were suggested by Thorgrim long ago. Ive wanted signage for some time and even asked armagan about a more flexible font on the parties but that probably wont happen.  Using large map icons as text (or anything else) does have some problems. If you check out the compass youll see that the camera angle and proximity to it can make it wink in or out depending on where the screen is centered. In fact I had the compass larger but scaled it down because the winking in and out was distracting. Larger map icons make this more noticeable.   I could experiment with the text but its likely going to have this problem.

Changing river width is easy, its just time consuming. There is also a slight problem with some kind of quantum uncertainty principle around rivers. The AI can pass through them if they arent thick enough, or at least this has been a problem in earlier m&b versions. This is really more of a problem with the map edge rivers.

You can try it yourself if you feel enterprising. Just d/l the map editor and pop in the tld map.

For the last idea, the sepia toned map, yeah I think its perfectly doable. I dont have the appetite to try atm but changing colors and 2-d billboard towns are doable.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 27, 2007, 01:07:41 PM
Using large map icons as text (or anything else) does have some problems.

I assume the problems you mention would be rather small if we use a separated "map icon" for each letter composing, say, "Gondor".
Letters should be not too large (smaller than a city) and quite spaced apart. Each should have a proper position and orientation, to form pleasingly cureved writings on the map. They should also float a little over the map to avoid "z-fightings" artifacts, if that is needed.

Would that still cause problems?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on July 27, 2007, 01:15:53 PM
Good idea, that would make it a bit better I think. The letters would wink out one by one as they clipped rather than the entire word all in one go.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Highlander on July 27, 2007, 01:39:59 PM
For LOM I was thinking of trying to make a flat map with one big iceon over it - a hand drawn map. Not sure if it would work, though, due to the way icons are clipped.

I tried that too. It does not work. M&B seems not to support that large icons. The texture of the icon is completely blurred.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 27, 2007, 01:50:11 PM
For LOM I was thinking of trying to make a flat map with one big iceon over it - a hand drawn map. Not sure if it would work, though, due to the way icons are clipped.

I tried that too. It does not work. M&B seems not to support that large icons. The texture of the icon is completely blurred.

That sucks. I figured as much, but was hoping it would improve with .8
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 28, 2007, 06:49:04 AM
Here's one ... could we rig the cheat mode "see all" to an item?  The palantia (or however it is spelled) - the seeing stones - might make a good reward item from an armory... at least for the evil side (even if the good guys couldn't really use them without Sauron tracking them).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Kohlrabi on July 28, 2007, 06:55:16 AM
You could be "allowed" to turn that cheat on when you bought it perhaps?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Jairion on July 28, 2007, 08:59:44 AM
Or raise "spotting" skill insanely high, if it is possible to see the whole map with 10000 spotting skill... Or something like that, you get the idea. Though, I doubt Steward Denethor, Saruman or Sauron would want to give it up to anyone, since they use and need them themselves.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 28, 2007, 10:16:52 AM
Yeah, well, I didn't say it should be cheap ...

And the cheat code just removes/bypasses the limitation on vision range.  It is the same function, except that the coded limit on spotting skill (10, in this case) would create issues if you made an item that was "spot skill +1000" ... easier to bypass the spot range check entirely.

I just thought of something that was in the book, would help with people complaining that they can't find the last of whatever, and would add an armory or quest reward item.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 28, 2007, 10:31:31 AM
I think not...maybe a map of middle earth?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 28, 2007, 10:35:45 AM
I think not...maybe a map of middle earth?

You've got a map already - just scroll about the screen and find whatever you want.  It just doesn't show units outside of your spotting range.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Keinonen on July 28, 2007, 10:45:14 AM
There should be more variable units in computerparties. For example, I have'nt seen any Orc Despoilers or Uruk-Hai Pikemen in any scout, patrol or what-so-ever-party. The Uruk-Hai Pikemen would especially be a fine addition to Isengardian parties since Rohanian forces are predominately cavalry.

Perhaps there could be Uruk-Hai Pikecompanies? And Orc Raiding parties with the despoilers?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 28, 2007, 01:53:33 PM
@Ron Losey i ment that in your inventory you would have a map...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 28, 2007, 02:44:15 PM
There should be more variable units in computerparties. For example, I have'nt seen any Orc Despoilers or Uruk-Hai Pikemen in any scout, patrol or what-so-ever-party. The Uruk-Hai Pikemen would especially be a fine addition to Isengardian parties since Rohanian forces are predominately cavalry.

Perhaps there could be Uruk-Hai Pikecompanies? And Orc Raiding parties with the despoilers?

Not a bad idea. A couple of templates chosen at random should be no big deal.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stemmers? on July 28, 2007, 05:03:14 PM
Suggestion: make all Dunnish spearmen (not just pikemen) able to fall into formation. It would give all of those veteran spearmen you get from raiding prisoner trains a lot more utility, and give Isengard a bit more of a fighting chance with the RCM mod.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on July 28, 2007, 10:07:33 PM
Just a small suggestion... I noticed there aren't any (that I can find) special axes in the good armories (havent played evil yet). If I was greedy I would ask for both 1h and 2h axes, but I can still enjoy TLD with neither.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on July 28, 2007, 10:40:08 PM
Just a small suggestion... I noticed there aren't any (that I can find) special axes in the good armories (havent played evil yet). If I was greedy I would ask for both 1h and 2h axes, but I can still enjoy TLD with neither.

I'm pretty sure Isengard has a kick-ass axe.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Kohlrabi on July 29, 2007, 05:53:15 AM
How about splitting up Gondor into "East" and "West" Gondor? (or something similar)

It would mean that Minas Tirith could fall, and Dol Amroth still fought on.

The western parts of Gondor don´t see much action as it is now, since most of the fighting is around Osgiliath, dividing Gondor
would introduce a "half-fallen" state.

Perhaps you already thought of, and discarded this, and perhaps it takes too much of an effort balancing this out.

The pro's of this is that it would give Gondor a bit more longevity against mordor, and it would put some more focus on fights in Western Gondor, a pretty abandoned area in comparison to other areas.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Keinonen on July 29, 2007, 06:23:10 AM
How about splitting up Gondor into "East" and "West" Gondor? (or something similar)

It would mean that Minas Tirith could fall, and Dol Amroth still fought on.

The western parts of Gondor don´t see much action as it is now, since most of the fighting is around Osgiliath, dividing Gondor
would introduce a "half-fallen" state.

Perhaps you already thought of, and discarded this, and perhaps it takes too much of an effort balancing this out.

The pro's of this is that it would give Gondor a bit more longevity against mordor, and it would put some more focus on fights in Western Gondor, a pretty abandoned area in comparison to other areas.



Agreed. Pinnath Gelin, Erech, Ethring and Dol Amroth are mainly plagued by bandits and tribal orcs but still they're pretty silent and irrelevant site on the adventure map.

Corsairs are busy with Linhir and Tarnost, Haradrim are taking care of Pelargir and Mordor is fighting Minas Tirith. Why not add another minor "evil" faction there? The hordes of Tribal Orc King or/and Brigand King? I know you're trying to base all the things in the game on Tolkien's writings but western Gondor is now worth traveling to only 'cause of aquiring quests.

Besides when the war starts I haven't gotten any "Bring Retribution to Brigands" or "Capture a Brigand Leader" quests. Then even brigands aren't worth to fight.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 29, 2007, 06:36:47 AM
Well, the corsairs are over there to fight.  Problem is that there is just no way to get over there without going the absolute long way around ... and that translates to "not worth it."

One mountain pass between Rohan and the back side of Gondor would do it ... give people a reason to pass through the other parts of Gondor when going somewhere.  It could be inconvenient as heck, and still be better than nothing.  That or something else back there to do ... but even then, you have to get there first.


Of course, if there is ever a total reworking of the war system, factions that fall one city or encampment at a time might be in the works.


Edit:
http://www.geocities.com/ringobsession/middleearth.html

Here's a page with some good maps.  Might give somebody an idea on how to arrange more traffic passing through Gondor.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on July 29, 2007, 09:28:48 AM
Almost NONE of those maps work, though.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on July 29, 2007, 10:47:43 AM
really?the middle earth in colour map worked for me and fourth age map...don't know about others since i didn't check
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 29, 2007, 02:01:09 PM
Dividing Gondor in two is maybe a good idea, but if implemented should happen only when Gondor falls  (a-la "Vichy France" VS "Free France" in WW2).

The west part of Gondor can stand a little longer. Many interesting things could be added in this "what if" scenario, determining how this half-Gondor faction would work (A: probably not as well as the "full-Gondor" one)

(one of the best parts of this MOD already is a "what if": "What if Gondor and Rohan fell? A: war between saruman and mordor!".)


Why not add another minor "evil" faction there? The hordes of Tribal Orc King or/and Brigand King? I know you're trying to base all the things in the game on Tolkien's writings but western Gondor is now worth traveling to only 'cause of aquiring quests.


If good candidates are found for additional allies of Mordor, then fine. 
But I would argue against any large scale change that drifts TLD farther away from the original War of The Ring,
and especially against the introduction of any additional "hole-filler" factions that are enemies to all real factions in play.

Only two sides please. Saruman ambiguity is the only exception, and even that difference is really triggered only when all the good factions are down (how cool is that).

Even now, all those neutral villages and "enemy to all" brigands and tribal orks and mountain goblins are quite disturbing to me.
Incidentally, not only they seem out of place in the spirit of the scenario, but also they cause problems with prisoners, like when you end up having friendly Mordor commander in Rohan groups. Also, their presence can potentially hinder, in the future, possible changes in gameplays, because  evey global change must make sense for Evil side, Good side AND these strange neutral sides.

If you want well balanced wars in generalized "dog eat dog" world there are other MODs and native. Let's keep this one Tolkien.

E.g: in the Shire they believed that they had nothing to do with the rest of the world and that they would live ignoring what was going on there, and they were wrong. That's the spirit.


If anything, we should make so that the "good sides" are not so automatically allied. There should be a little of mistrust between them, something for the player to fight. Right now, Elves, Rohan and Gondor are total buddies, since the first day of war. That result should be an achievement, and not given for granted. How to translate this in gameplay terms, I have no idea.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on July 29, 2007, 02:03:50 PM
I agree, and it's not like you can't just give marching orders to some of the mordor units to make way to erech  ::)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Snork on July 29, 2007, 11:48:19 PM

One mountain pass between Rohan and the back side of Gondor would do it ... give people a reason to pass through the other parts of Gondor when going somewhere.  It could be inconvenient as heck, and still be better than nothing.  That or something else back there to do ... but even then, you have to get there first.

What about Dunharrow/Paths of the Dead? It's perfectly situated. Maybe there could be some sort of entrance/exit teleport thing with an interior in between, like in RPG mod in the waterfall area. Ok, it'd be weird to let an entire army through, but surely at least just the player's party would be able to make the trip without breaking any Tolkien immersion rules.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on July 30, 2007, 12:13:32 AM

One mountain pass between Rohan and the back side of Gondor would do it ... give people a reason to pass through the other parts of Gondor when going somewhere.  It could be inconvenient as heck, and still be better than nothing.  That or something else back there to do ... but even then, you have to get there first.

What about Dunharrow/Paths of the Dead? It's perfectly situated. Maybe there could be some sort of entrance/exit teleport thing with an interior in between, like in RPG mod in the waterfall area. Ok, it'd be weird to let an entire army through, but surely at least just the player's party would be able to make the trip without breaking any Tolkien immersion rules.

No ... that would interrupt Tolkien rules.  "The way is shut.  It was made by the dead, and the dead keep it.  The way is shut."


I was thinking more of including the Gap of Rohan, past Isengard and around the mountains into Gondor from the other side.  Might have to stretch the map just a bit ... but that was discussed too.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on July 30, 2007, 09:49:54 AM
Another "minor & cosmetic" suggestion:

How difficult would it be to hack the native system so to get some of the lords to actually sit on his own trone (instead of standing in front of it)?

I would like that in Minas Tirith trone room or even in Edoras.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on July 30, 2007, 04:03:42 PM
Small suggestion mostly for looks but marginal functionality too; now that we have white head cloths, wouldn't it look more "eastern" to have those haradrim white shirt desert warriors to wear one? It would look good, it would make sense with them being from the desert n' all and it would give them some minimal protection for the head.

Also, I'd give them a small shield too. Almost everyone should be able to afford a small shield and it vastly increases survivability, so it would be priority buy for most, but that's just me. If you really want bottom of the bunch troops to be shieldless, then so be it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on July 30, 2007, 04:26:26 PM
Second suggestion: there seems to be a way for non-generic NPCs to always be captured by the player party rather than any allied parties involved in a battle. I would be most happy if this trait was given also to all generic officer NPCs, so that you had a chance of capturing that captain or lieutenant you need for your quest. For some reason the allied party always seems to get them.

If this is to gratuitous, why not have to possiblity of "buying" through dialouge officer prisoners from the allied parties in exchange for some influence?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on July 31, 2007, 12:51:27 AM
Suggestion for the less used half of gondor: Why not have another corsair base placed on the coast perhaps farther down the map in place of tribal orcs and brigands? That way you could have more reason to be down there and lose some of the neutral parties.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 02, 2007, 11:43:23 AM
Read the last few pages. I *REALLY* like the idea of scripted battles/missions that were tied to finally crushing a faction. Each would be differant. For instance taking out Isengard might mean taking out Saruman, taking our Mordor might mean clearing the way for Frodo and Sam to destroy the One ring. Dol Goldur, and Moria could be straight on Assaults, etc...

I also like the suggestion that uniting the different allied factions be something you have to work towards.

Other suggestions:

- More "stretched out" troop trees. It still feels like Troops advance too quickly vs Heros progression.
- NPC Heroes that improve in Weapon Skill (As mentioned elsewhere this is from Band of Warriors mod).
- High Profile NPC's. Top ones, in order of how well they would fit the current scenario IMO

1 - Boromir. Yes he is supposed to die at the beginning of the war, but this scenario is something of a "what if scenario". I like the idea of a possible rescue mission or something to try and save Boromir given to you by Faramir or Denethor. Just a thought.

2 - Elrond & Arwen. After the council of Rivendell neither are doing all that much where they shouldn't be recruitable and/or active in the North... BTW when is Rivendell proper going to show up?

3 - Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. Granted you would be playing with the story of the books, but again we are into "what if" territory again. Gimli would be interesting as it could be used as a Beta towards getting Dwarves in the game. And if there is ever a workable solution to scaling Dwarves then ALOT of things should fall into place (Trolls and Hobbits particularly).

4 - Gandalf & Radagast. Radagast would make the most sense being that he has only a tiny part in the books which could be expanded upon.

5- Tom Bombadil & Goldberry. Not recruitable, but he could be a super addition to add some of the "magic" of Tolkien.

6 - Hobbits.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 02, 2007, 12:09:22 PM
I'm against any heavier use of the book's mainer (you know what I mean) hereoes and characters. And I think TLD is NOT a What If scenario in the essence that anything is possible. I might be wrong though. But I think the concept was simple at the time it started and  because of the MaB limitations and that it didn't consider any events from the books. It should however. I would say...keep the main events in, keep the characters as they are and avoid further interaction with the main characters.
I suggested having Boromir in the scripted Osgilliath battle, yes. I think we should have a Coastal Gondor host with Angbor and Aragorn after the Corsairs are crushed. But Boromir SHOULD die. Arwen SHOULD stay in Rivendell.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 02, 2007, 02:13:31 PM
I'm against any heavier use of the book's mainer (you know what I mean) hereoes and characters. And I think TLD is NOT a What If scenario in the essence that anything is possible. I might be wrong though. But I think the concept was simple at the time it started and  because of the MaB limitations and that it didn't consider any events from the books. It should however. I would say...keep the main events in, keep the characters as they are and avoid further interaction with the main characters.
I suggested having Boromir in the scripted Osgilliath battle, yes. I think we should have a Coastal Gondor host with Angbor and Aragorn after the Corsairs are crushed. But Boromir SHOULD die. Arwen SHOULD stay in Rivendell.

And Mordor SHOULD fall. And Rohan SHOULD fend off the baddies. If the course of the books are followed like this... there is no game.

Have Boromir in the battle. If he dies, he dies. If he lives, it's a bonus. But predetermined results suck and suck HORRIBLY in a game. Have Arwen and Elrond recruitable in Rivendell. No one is putting a gun to your head to recruit them. If you want to be a purist leave them there. Having Elrond participate in the campaign in the south is no more inaccurate than having Glorfindel there. Honestly the whole charm of the scenario is the possibiity of interacting, even campaigning with these folk, and having an effect on the outcome. If anything ever feels predetermined or I feel like an extra while all the important stuff is being done elsewhere then I will have no interest in playing this game-movie. It's the reason I despise most movie-based video games to begin with.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on August 02, 2007, 02:16:14 PM
it's based on the book...
P.S.how hard would it b to get the crafmod's camps in TLD
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 02, 2007, 08:39:06 PM
I'm against any heavier use of the book's mainer (you know what I mean) hereoes and characters. And I think TLD is NOT a What If scenario in the essence that anything is possible. I might be wrong though. But I think the concept was simple at the time it started and  because of the MaB limitations and that it didn't consider any events from the books. It should however. I would say...keep the main events in, keep the characters as they are and avoid further interaction with the main characters.
I suggested having Boromir in the scripted Osgilliath battle, yes. I think we should have a Coastal Gondor host with Angbor and Aragorn after the Corsairs are crushed. But Boromir SHOULD die. Arwen SHOULD stay in Rivendell.

And Mordor SHOULD fall. And Rohan SHOULD fend off the baddies. If the course of the books are followed like this... there is no game.

Have Boromir in the battle. If he dies, he dies. If he lives, it's a bonus. But predetermined results suck and suck HORRIBLY in a game. Have Arwen and Elrond recruitable in Rivendell. No one is putting a gun to your head to recruit them. If you want to be a purist leave them there. Having Elrond participate in the campaign in the south is no more inaccurate than having Glorfindel there. Honestly the whole charm of the scenario is the possibiity of interacting, even campaigning with these folk, and having an effect on the outcome. If anything ever feels predetermined or I feel like an extra while all the important stuff is being done elsewhere then I will have no interest in playing this game-movie. It's the reason I despise most movie-based video games to begin with.

you totally don't get my point. I don't feel like arguing with you.

edit: I will summarize it like this: Of course there should be a challenge and of course there should be surprises and a game to play and not a movie to watch. But straying from the book TOO far is bad imo (like having your party full of Elron, Arwen, Boromir and Aragorn for instance.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 02, 2007, 08:53:32 PM
Yeah, I am going to have to agree with Merlkir.  If more NPC's are needed, it would be better to fabricate a few than to use ones who should be somewhere else.

Speaking of fabricating a few, the way they get killed off now, it may be necessary to add replacement leaders who show up after the last one died.  The camp lieutenant was a fine tool when only a few hero characters left, and then always with your party ... but it may be inadequate when half the NPC's are out wandering around on the field or being killed or captured.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stemmers? on August 02, 2007, 09:22:41 PM
I agree wholeheartedly. While he's off battling, Gothmog should be replaced by his cohort, Minimog, and Prince Imrahil should pass his duties onto his loyal second-in-command, Steve.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 02, 2007, 10:06:34 PM
I agree wholeheartedly. While he's off battling, Gothmog should be replaced by his cohort, Minimog, and Prince Imrahil should pass his duties onto his loyal second-in-command, Steve.


Um ... "Steve"?

Surely we could at least TRY to come up with Tolkien names for everybody.

This from someone who named his orc character "Ugly" ... but the player character can be an exception.  We can't really have "Bill, Minister of Finance" in charge of a city, now can we? 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on August 02, 2007, 10:41:54 PM

This from someone who named his orc character "Ugly" ... but the player character can be an exception.  We can't really have "Bill, Minister of Finance" in charge of a city, now can we? 


Hey, don't be dissin' ol' Bill.  He's got a real head for numbers.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Sunhawken on August 02, 2007, 10:59:12 PM

This from someone who named his orc character "Ugly" ... but the player character can be an exception.  We can't really have "Bill, Minister of Finance" in charge of a city, now can we? 


Hey, don't be dissin' ol' Bill.  He's got a real head for numbers.

LOL

You can make a script that randomly makes new NPc's that is filled with Last Days Style Names.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 02, 2007, 11:47:07 PM
So the choice is between having NPCs who are straight out of the books, or NPCs that are pulled out of one's imagination and have no connection to JRR's writings at all. That's a funny way of staying close to the book....

My point is simply that the very nature of the mod changes the story completely. With the player mucking up the works there is no need for Frodo to necessarily do his thing in exactly the same way as the book presents it. Hell THAT exact strategy should be totally up for debate. Again if this is a game where WE get to call the shots, and influence the story then we should be able to fundamentaly alter the course of that story. Everything should be up for grabs. Perhaps instead of Boromir, it is Aragorn who dies early in the campaign in one run, and in the next Gimli, or no one at all. What if in one game Frodo fails (Perhaps because Mordor was too strong when he entered there lands), and Sauron gets the Ring and the player has to deal with the consequences fighting a guerrilla style war with the remnants of the Fellowship and Alliance to bring him down. The possiblilities could be endless for a surprising mod. That's what I LOVE about the mod right now in it's early form... nothing is set in stone. In my first game Rohan fell EARLY in the game as I cleared the North with the Elves, and I had to bring my boys down South to help Minas Tirith. But... where was Aragorn, Gimli, or Gandalf? Either they fell in Rohan or they survived and since I had the most mobile, and proactive force around with Eomer and co gone... why weren't they joining up with me?

Right now not having those pivotal characters around, without there presence felt there is a real hole in the immersiveness, however if they are hardwired in to go through the events int he book in clockwork fashion it will kill a big part of the fun of the game, imo. I think that if you put them in and allowed for the player to have the CHOICE to recruit them or not, that would satisfy both the purists and the"what if" people. If you want to reenact the book you don't recruit the likes of Aragorn or Arwen and let them go on there merry way... no harm done.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stemmers? on August 03, 2007, 12:48:43 AM

Um ... "Steve"?

Surely we could at least TRY to come up with Tolkien names for everybody.

This from someone who named his orc character "Ugly" ... but the player character can be an exception.  We can't really have "Bill, Minister of Finance" in charge of a city, now can we? 


Ok, ok...um, how about...HROTHMARTIN.

That's better, right?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on August 03, 2007, 11:46:15 AM
just use the LOTRO character ctreation screen...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Theodred son of Theoden on August 03, 2007, 08:12:11 PM
Hey, guys, first of all, I would be predictable, but sincere.:)---thanks a lot for your fantastic job...Tolkien is my favorite writer since childhood and you really make me happy when I saw Aldburg on the map. I hope you get what I mean:)))

It's plainly seen that you put a lot of effort and personal time into it- thank you very much!
...And know what, Last days has something that makes it diffrent from all those predictable "Tolkien" action-arcade-strategy games of recent "after-movie" period-
 maybe just because it's made by guys who actually read and love Tolkien, and not by some Mega commercial coproration. Last Days has some inner homley Tolkien spirit...Maybe it's only my subjective perception...But actually, it has something in common with old true Dos masterpieces- War in Middle-Earth and Riders of Rohan specifically...Just great. Period.

As for suggestions, well, first-
1.Maybe Theodred could be included?))) I mean, Elfhelm is present, Grimbold is here too, but where is First Marshall of the Mark, son of King Theoden? Yeah, he is killed at the First Battle of the Fords of Isen, but Grimbold was killed in the battle of Pelennor Fields, so we have Grimbold, but don't have Theodred. A pity...

2. Actually, here is my second proposal, but again, it's very subjective, and I'm not sure if it's appealing to anyone.
Why we like Tolkien?
Well, answer is a litte bit complicated due to apparent reasons, but many people(including myself) love Middle-Earth for the atmoshpere and very coherent "lore-element". Tolkien created unique world with overwhelming amount of details that form a coherent and logical picture. 
So why not make "Last Days" a litte bit more lore-drivern? I try to explain what I mean...Old RPGs(like Ultima, Realms of Arkania, or more recent Baldur's Gate or Planescape) managed to have terrific effect on player, while having primitive to modern day standards graphics...They simply had a conception, a people who knew about the setting and skillfully written text that created the atmopshere...And that was crucial..

Tolkien left great legacy- so why not try to make Last Days more atmoshperic- try to re-write dialogues(of course, stricktly according to Tolkien theme) or maybe include some more complicated quests that will have more "lore" in it. I hope I'm making my point clear enough.

 More interaction with NPCs, more personality in them, more detailed, Tolkien-based descriptions of places, some epic, complicated quests for every faction...Dialgoues between NPCs before or after the battle etc...You name it...


Of course, within strict limits of the logic and historical realities of Tolkien world.. I'm speaking not about armies of blood-thirsty hobbits laying seige to Barad-Dur...
 
Good Old Dos Tolkien Games offered  posibilities but they remained good because they were faithful to Middle-Earth mythology and realities to the letter.

 If we analzye old Interplay Lord of the Rings games(I hope you heard about them)- so, they offered precisely what I'm speaking about- they followed Tolkien mythology but gave more freedom to the player to explore Middle-Earth and change it, but again within certain logical borders- the developers thoroughly studied Tolkien published writings including Unfinished Tales and Hsitroy of Middle-Earth and presented a wide variety of diffrent quests that "could be" in Middle-Earth at the Third Age...
So  example of one quest in that game- Theodred(Yeah, I mention Theodred too often.:)) was killed but his armour was stolen by Orcish maradoures so the party was given a task to retrive it etc...

So there is no need to break the inner logic of Middle-Earth by placing Radagast in Minas Tirith...

But placing him at his home in Southern Mirkwood and giving him some logical story for the "thematic" interaction with the player will work and will work greatly... It'll just make Middle-Earth in Last Days more thematic.)))

Simply, put all the details and wheels in the right place and let it work- it will make Last Days even more unique and intreresting.

It would just add more fun to my mind...


So I'm speaking about "What if" scenarios but only within existing canon- adding a story element, making it more "RPG-like"(more  setting-oriented, not )

It seems that Last Days has explosive potential in that aspect...So we will have even more Tolkien oriented game, filled with more depth and atmosphere...Because at the end of day, atmoshpre and depth make Last Days exeptional...Why not to try to make it even more subtle? Of course, it will require a lot of "lore" studying, analyzing of possibilities in given curcamstances of the end of the Third Age etc.




I'm not sure if all above fits to the scope of M&B mod, but I think that it does....
Sorry for a lite bit rough flow of thoughts and emotions...

And sorry for the huge post.


Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Oubliette on August 03, 2007, 09:45:10 PM
Just a quick suggestion that may already be out there (didn't find anything when I searched though). There's a bare-chested body armour piece available for the dunlendings (on wolf-warriors, berserkers) and also an equivalent that can be worn by orcs, uruks and uruk-hai. I think when playing as a man of Isengard, or an orc, uruk or uruk-hai I think these armours should be available to you if you wish to play a berserker/slayer type character. Alternative ways of aquiring the armour would be either if it were available from the beginning (so certain classes would start with the armour), if it could simply be purchased, if it were given to the player after attaining the berserker trait, or if it had to be attained through a quest. I think the armour should be easily available for those who wish to pursue such a route, possibly with a bolstered version of the bare-chested armour available after you get the berserker trait or after you complete a specific quest.

May be a bit of hassle for what seems a fairly narrow type of character, but I decided to make a Dunlending berserker today, and I must say, I think he feels pretty inadequate with such obvious lack of chest-hair in comparison to those hirsute wolf-warrior comrades of his. On top of that the orcs keeping mocking his purple pantaloons. Sure, they might be comfortable and the latest in fashion for the discerning river pirate, but menacing they aint.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on August 03, 2007, 10:13:47 PM
I agree, no aragorn/legolas/gimli characters, but I also agree with Theodred on all his suggestions.




Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Forral on August 04, 2007, 01:58:24 AM
Just a quick suggestion that may already be out there (didn't find anything when I searched though). There's a bare-chested body armour piece available for the dunlendings (on wolf-warriors, berserkers) and also an equivalent that can be worn by orcs, uruks and uruk-hai. I think when playing as a man of Isengard, or an orc, uruk or uruk-hai I think these armours should be available to you if you wish to play a berserker/slayer type character. Alternative ways of aquiring the armour would be either if it were available from the beginning (so certain classes would start with the armour), if it could simply be purchased, if it were given to the player after attaining the berserker trait, or if it had to be attained through a quest. I think the armour should be easily available for those who wish to pursue such a route, possibly with a bolstered version of the bare-chested armour available after you get the berserker trait or after you complete a specific quest.

May be a bit of hassle for what seems a fairly narrow type of character, but I decided to make a Dunlending berserker today, and I must say, I think he feels pretty inadequate with such obvious lack of chest-hair in comparison to those hirsute wolf-warrior comrades of his. On top of that the orcs keeping mocking his purple pantaloons. Sure, they might be comfortable and the latest in fashion for the discerning river pirate, but menacing they aint.

Totally with you. I've been wanting one of those armors too! :D

-Forral-
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 04, 2007, 03:21:05 AM
Theodred son of Theoden:  Read my suggestion list some pages back. Long one, but lots of stuff you've mentioned.
1) Theodred, yeah, sure. I would have him die at the fords of Isen though ;) if we make it a scripted battle..
2) Read my list. Most of the things you suggest about immersion and atmosphere and RPGs is there. AW however seems not so keen on this idea. But I'm sure we'll be able to persuade him to put some of it in ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Theodred son of Theoden on August 04, 2007, 09:52:44 AM
2Merlkir
Yeah, indeed, lots of intersting points in your list.

The thing is that there should be people who are dedicated enough to the "lore"-side of Middle-Earth, who have desire and determination to create...
The generic nature of some important stuff(such as direct speech of characters, bloodthirsty Glorfindel in Lorien who is not even explained etc.) really lessen the game's effect...

But on the other hand, such  ideas as human meat/ Orc rations, Nazgul shriek, orcs eating prisoners, orc weakness during the day, etc...are  really subtle, fitting, atmoshperic features, but still on the contrary, there are some grave things that kill the inner logic of Middle-Earth, that was so cherished by JRR.

 Dialogues sometimes compelty destroy the whole atmosphere- especially, orcs who still say "Hello sir" "As you wish, sir!."  As far as I understood many dialogues simply are copied from the Native with Tolkien names instead...Of course, many people don't care about lore and will think that I'm a freak with wierd intrests.:)

But, well... Still, the mere amount of fantastic content, appearence of the great lore features mentoned above make me think that creators of Last Days care about atmosphere and lore.

Dialogues are only one small aspect, but still they can offer much more fun if they are written skilfully and according to Middle-Earth lore.
Anyway, I won't repeat myself...There is very much that can be integrated into Last Days, turning it into one of the most unique and balanced in terms of atmoshpere/lore/gameplay LOTR games ever.



The only difficulty of course, is the right and willing people , who would like to undertake that difficult task and responsibility and make it no matter what.

Anyway, of course, it's up to Ancientwanker to decide....
 







Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 04, 2007, 10:06:56 AM
well, the dialogs could use rewriting.
You're repeating it would need people. We do have people. Even people with knowledge of tolkien lore. Actually, every now and then there are people wanting to help, but they don't have any graphics or scripting skills. That could be a job for them. Or - Why don't you try, hm?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: onepostpony on August 04, 2007, 10:14:17 AM
For regular users like me: Go into scenes.txt in your TLD mod folder and replace

0x300028000003e8fa0000034e00004b34000059be

with

0x30002800000691a40000034e00004b34000059be

Why? Because the size of the random battlefield will increase.
For those who are having problems running TLD w the BattleSizer, I'm not sure you should bother.

I got that info from http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,16207.0.html (http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,16207.0.html)

For team TLD: The same guy that found out the size increase apparently has a spawn fix at http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,19551.0.html (http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,19551.0.html)

I would much rather have the spawn fix implemented than having the random battlefield in by default.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Theodred son of Theoden on August 04, 2007, 10:23:11 AM
2Merlkir
Well, of course, it woud be a real honor for me to help even in some small ascpect.

Although, I'm just a humble Russian with relativley average skill in English, but on the other hand, I have all source material required(all History of Middle-Earth plus every book by Tolkien) and really enjoy digging the lore

If indeed some "lore-revision" may take place, I'll bring  on the forums my cousin who shares my passion for "authentetic Middle-Earth"(so-to speak) and he can throw some ideas too.

And what about you, Merlkir? Your ideas are really good ones...And you seem to love Tolkien,eh?:)

But still, Ancientwanker(as far as I understood) is the boss, so it's up to him to speak the final word if TLD need any lore tweaking and by some uknown Theodred son of Theoden with three posts.:)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 04, 2007, 10:58:53 AM
2Merlkir
Well, of course, it woud be a real honor for me to help even in some small ascpect.
cool. :) I think you can give it a shot.

And what about you, Merlkir? Your ideas are really good ones...And you seem to love Tolkien,eh?:)
well, I have some stuff put together already on the hero backgrounds, but it's sort of lame so I'll leave it to more lore-people. I'm a graphics guy after all. In fact I should be making more of these backgrounds, NPC portraits and concepts. (I have a big batch of Haradrim coming up that I drew at work, but I want to color them first)

But still, Ancientwanker(as far as I understood) is the boss, so it's up to him to speak the final word if TLD need any lore tweaking and by some uknown Theodred son of Theoden with three posts.:)

oh I'm sure he won't mind. You can try and if he finds it good, he'll put it in. ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: StoneHenge on August 04, 2007, 01:05:49 PM
You guys still haven't implimented the elven weapon from the prologue of LOTR(1st movie).  The Elven dual bladed staff. Not sure of the exact name but it was in the original battle with mordor and the Sauron in physical form.  Not sure if it was described in the books because im not big on reading.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 04, 2007, 01:13:31 PM
You guys still haven't implimented the elven weapon from the prologue of LOTR(1st movie).  The Elven dual bladed staff. Not sure of the exact name but it was in the original battle with mordor and the Sauron in physical form.  Not sure if it was described in the books because im not big on reading.

No. Movie. Bad. Book. Good.

(http://www.bloggerheads.com/images/crazy_frog.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: onepostpony on August 04, 2007, 01:47:00 PM
You guys still haven't implimented the elven weapon from the prologue of LOTR(1st movie).  The Elven dual bladed staff. Not sure of the exact name but it was in the original battle with mordor and the Sauron in physical form.  Not sure if it was described in the books because im not big on reading.

Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure staffs do not have blades.  But then again, you said it is Elven in origin. If only you could be big on reading. In any case I'm sure you could just edit the staff entry in item_kinds1.txt and give it piercing or cutting damage. ;)

Best of luck.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 04, 2007, 02:19:42 PM
nah, he means this one. It's in the movie mod I think. We STILL get these people. Plate armor, elven armor, uruk crossbows...

(http://www.collectoybles.com.au/catalog/images/lotr_uc_elven_sword.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on August 04, 2007, 03:21:13 PM
2Merlkir
Well, of course, it woud be a real honor for me to help even in some small ascpect.

Although, I'm just a humble Russian with relativley average skill in English, but on the other hand, I have all source material required(all History of Middle-Earth plus every book by Tolkien) and really enjoy digging the lore

If indeed some "lore-revision" may take place, I'll bring  on the forums my cousin who shares my passion for "authentetic Middle-Earth"(so-to speak) and he can throw some ideas too.

And what about you, Merlkir? Your ideas are really good ones...And you seem to love Tolkien,eh?:)

But still, Ancientwanker(as far as I understood) is the boss, so it's up to him to speak the final word if TLD need any lore tweaking and by some uknown Theodred son of Theoden with three posts.:)

I'd say go for it ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 04, 2007, 04:36:49 PM
nah, he means this one. It's in the movie mod I think. We STILL get these people. Plate armor, elven armor, uruk crossbows...

(http://www.collectoybles.com.au/catalog/images/lotr_uc_elven_sword.jpg)

I still don't understand how we are supposed to beleive that the same people who came up with the movie version of Glamdring (which is probably my favorite sword design from a fantasy movie EVER) came up with that *thing*. Unless they completely ignore/forgot the origin of Gandalf's sword...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: StoneHenge on August 04, 2007, 06:45:29 PM
nah, he means this one. It's in the movie mod I think. We STILL get these people. Plate armor, elven armor, uruk crossbows...

(http://www.collectoybles.com.au/catalog/images/lotr_uc_elven_sword.jpg)

No I dont think so but nice pic though
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on August 04, 2007, 07:10:41 PM
It's like the Falx, sept the blade is on backwards  :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 04, 2007, 09:11:58 PM
It's like the Falx, sept the blade is on backwards  :D

It's a fantasy play on a Japanese nagimaki.  A brutally effective weapon if you know how to use it - but really a horseman's weapon, while the fool movies tended to portray their use from foot.  (The original logic of the longer handle was to get both hands on your sword without falling off of your horse.)

The LOTR movies tried very hard to give the elves an Asiatic look, including a lot of weapons and tactics clearly borrowed from Japan (and then tweaked to look "fantasy").  Even the points of the swords were clearly a Japanese kissaki.  That was very much against Tolkien's work ... he very clearly portrayed the elves as using straight-blade swords and other "European" type equipment.

To be true to Tolkien, if any such things were added, they would need to be European-type pole-axes and glaives, not fantasy versions of Asiatic ones.

As stated.  "No.  Movie ... Bad."


-----------------------------------------
Edit:
Unrelated to that.

We need back that auto-resolve sequence that played when you went down in a fight.  In the .751 version, if you went down in a fight, there would be a round of auto-resolve combat that played before you could re-enter the fight.  It gave the feel that combat continued with or without you.  It made much better sense than randomly assigning wounds or capture to your companions, gave you a good reason not to take chances, etc....

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MastaSpoofa on August 04, 2007, 09:29:30 PM
It looks like a falx to me....  :(


The falx is a Dacian weapon so techically it would be European, sept like I said you would have to reverse the blade.


http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxcut4.jpg

and compared to.....

http://www.collectoybles.com.au/catalog/images/lotr_uc_elven_sword.jpg

they look really similar besides the backwards blade, So besides the fact that the Falx is absent in Tolkens writings, It fits the criteria, considering it caused the Romans to modify their armor just from initial contact with this deadly, deadly weapon.

But I dont care either way if its implemented or not, I'm just making an observation.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 04, 2007, 11:38:26 PM
The reverse curve on the falx made it a mechanically very different weapon.  The basic premise of a blade on a long handle is there, but the difference between a slicing blade and one designed to hook, hack and tear is pretty substantial.

The falx was used across Eastern Europe in the Roman period ... not only Dacia, although that is where the Roman Legions first encountered them in relatively large numbers.  It is an impressive design, especially considering the relatively poor metal-working skills of the regions that produced them.

The design re-appeared among the English billhooks, particularly the one called a "black bill".  Although the blade on the black bill was a little wider, the rest of the geometry on the weapon was quite similar.  In that role, it remained in use in England into the late 1600's, and George Silver ("Paradoxes of Defence", 1599) described them as having an advantage over "every weapon whatsoever".

-------------------------

There was an earlier question about adding more European heavy polearms - shorter halberds, pole-hammers, and things like the English billhooks.  At last check, it was still rather undecided... Tolkien does not really describe pole-axes, but he doesn't specifically discount them either.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: onepostpony on August 05, 2007, 07:22:48 AM
We need back that auto-resolve sequence that played when you went down in a fight.  In the .751 version, if you went down in a fight, there would be a round of auto-resolve combat that played before you could re-enter the fight.  It gave the feel that combat continued with or without you.  It made much better sense than randomly assigning wounds or capture to your companions, gave you a good reason not to take chances, etc....

And with its removal, you effectively no longer have unfavorable terrain. So the next time you and half your cavalry is at the bottom of a cliff and your archers are at the top, just TAB out and try again. If you no longer want to engage the enemy with a river between you two, just keep trying. Even over the bridges.

So, no one wants a bigger battlefield and spawn fix, huh? ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 05, 2007, 07:40:42 AM

So, no one wants a bigger battlefield and spawn fix, huh? ;)

We all saw it.  I even bookmarked the links, although I wanted them for other mods.  I really need to know how to do that in Python, but I'll figure it out.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 05, 2007, 10:57:06 AM
Is it possible to change or add tree models? I wonder if we could maybe adjust the mood of the terrains to be more middleearthy and less steppe-ish...Birches would be extremely nice..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 05, 2007, 11:10:37 AM
Yeah, it's possible to do something with the trees.  They're in xtree_meshes.brf and xtree_meshes_b.brf.  If you can't find ones you like, you could add them... assuming you can draw a decent tree.

Not sure exactly how the map decides which trees to put where in random scenes ... but a person could figure that out, I'm sure.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 05, 2007, 11:21:28 AM
the best would be the possibility of a completely new kind of terrain, but since we're using the snow one retextured, I think that's impossible.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Theodred son of Theoden on August 05, 2007, 03:36:44 PM
Thank you for support and trust, guys...)))

I can say that I don't take any responsibilities lightly, and while I have a real life too(singing and playing in a band, studying in the universety and all other big and small things, I promise that my cousin and I will spend their time on TLD and try our best in any task you may give us.

First and foremost, it seems to me, we should start with small things...
1.Re-write descirption of places, main NPCs, and maybe some basic dialouges...Make it more atmoshperic...So when player approached Osgiliath, he will aprroach something more memorable then as it stands for now.

Could any of the developers send me all existing dialogues in one text file? I would be very grateful...We will work upon and send you some example and we'll see if it's quality will appeal to you)))


2.Further development- ideas of Melrkir, more complicated and atmoshepric quests, unique developlemt of each factions, new NPCs, Radagast the Brown, Theodred and the whole bunch of new ideas that turn TLD even into something more sophisticated....

Of course, it will require coopeartion of developers, and first of all, I'm not still sure if Ancientwanker is interested in all of that crazy lore hype.:)

Lord of Ea has not yet spoken his final word.


And by the way, I once again refer to the Great Old Dos Approach- atmosphere and depth was valued above graphics(,graphic sucked pretty hard) in 1990-s the game industry was not yet THAT commercialized and big coprorate guys sold good ideas instead of boring. 

Why not to take some ideas from War in Middle Earth and Riders of Rohan titles?


I mean, that were fantastic games....

And by the way, still can't get why Glorfindel is in-game, but AW is against War of the Ring plot and characters...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on August 05, 2007, 03:58:03 PM
I can't speak for Ancientwanker (and I know he's been busy with RL lately), but if you come up with some good stuff he'll probably be happy to put it in the mod.

I believe all dialogs are in the "conversation.txt" file, although I'm not 100% sure (I pay more atention to graphics and sound). Take a look at it and see what could be changed/worked on. That would be a good place to start.

We're always open to contributions ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Theodred son of Theoden on August 05, 2007, 04:09:12 PM
I hope our work won't dissapoint you(it depends on our skill and dedication, though.:))


Well, found the file, the dialogues there are lost among huge amount of numbers...
If we re-write it from conversation.txt. there are several problems.
The main problem is that if we don't know who speaks this or that phrase, then we can't make this or that NPC speak in a "authentic"  manner, depending on the circamstances, race and faction...

And we can also try to re-write the descirption of places...

Maybe AW or someone has dialogues in a a more "ordered" state? Just wondering.:)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ranger of Ithilien on August 05, 2007, 04:29:26 PM
Well , first of all I'd like to compliment TLD's developers on great work . I can say without exegeration , that TLD is probably the best modern middle-earth - featuring game I've ever played .
  Now , about actual support and help . As my cousin here has said , both of us will be glad to futher improve this majestic game . We'll start re-writing dialogues as soon as possible , of course , and I think we also should re-write the descriptions of different locations . When a player comes to Edoras and is told that "This place is hold by friendly troops" ... Well , that isn't quite lore-oriented .
  So , up to us to fix it  ;)
Perhaps the main drawback of the game is the begining ... The enigmatic brigand fort , which allows to accumulate tremendous amounts of experience in seconds isn't quite ... lore-oriented . So , I find Merlkir's idea about great scripted battles most appealing . The young footman of one of the factions will participate , get a lot of XP and some better equipment , maybe some men will join him for free . And that will be quite logical and thematic .
Oh , one more thing , this is a trifle , but quite irritating . The Wargs actually ...eh...whinny when they hit obstacles  :lol:

Well ,finally, I'd like to thank the developers once again . Two thumbs up for fine work .  Hoping to help make it even better .
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on August 05, 2007, 05:10:06 PM
@ Theodred:

Well, then forget about that file and start writing some dialogs and descriptions (seeing you're willing to help), they can be converted to game files at a later stage.


@ Ranger of Ithilien:

We can't change the sounds wargs make at the moment due to sound engine limitations, maybe in a future M&B version.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Theodred son of Theoden on August 05, 2007, 05:14:44 PM
2DaBlade
We are REALLY willing to help...Tolkien and Middle-Earth are special for me. And I'm ready to spend my free time to help a project wich seems very intersting and promising to me.


Well, you suggested a very rational solution with dialogues.))) Will start writing them ASAP.


By the way, still can't grasp why AW is so strongly opposed to immersion of War of the Ring story elements into the game. It seems to me that it will make game more "convincing" and deep...
If we analyze current TLD carefully, one may find that it is filled with elements of the War of the Ring story...War of the Ring is the TLD itself, as there are vicotry(!) conditions for every faction and Isengard is conquered,Elladan and Elrohir are in-game(not saying about Glorfindel)etc...

So, including War of the ring "basis" into the game will make it definetly better and interesting- it will have the core, the spine on wich we can put many interesting stuff.

 And Tolkien did a hell of a job descirbing it in great  detail. So we have lots of material to play with.

 Fellowship can be omitted, while major characters can be present..

I've read cheif objections to "getting closer to the book", but well,even as it stands now TLD is close to the book then ever.:)

So, as Melrkir suggested,- the major battles, and general unfolding of the events can be included-of course-spread in time to make the game long- but with one exeption- it's up to player how to win the War and wich side is going to win...So, it will give us the freedom..
There is diffrence between anarchy and freedom- so no armies of hobbits and Elrond at Barad-Dur...But choices and possibilites within the reasonal and "thematic borders"...That seems cool.
Anyway,I'm just suggesting  and trying to give reasonable arguments of my position.


 And yeah, one questinon- Melrkir, DaBlade and AW, have you played War in Middle-Earth?

P.S. Meet my cousin-Ranger of Ithilien...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on August 05, 2007, 05:23:29 PM
Mae Govannen
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: MrGrendel on August 05, 2007, 06:17:54 PM
It would be nice if you could talk to your commanders at cities, and possibly the higher ranking hosts out in the field, to determine the task/location of your faction's lesser and greater hosts.

-"What news of our forces?"
-"We have a great host near Isengard, travelling to Edoras; a lesser host near Uruk-hai River Camp, following Rohirrim Militia, ..." etc.  :P

(If you want to make it realistic, make it cost a couple of points to request reports, and you don't get the messenger until a day or two after the request...)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: pf7612 on August 05, 2007, 06:46:11 PM
Hey guys, great ideas over here! I've got some ideas too:

1. Being able to get re-assigned during a mission. Ex. you have mission x. before you have completed mission x you decide to visit the person who gave you the mission for whatever reason. Yuo go to "about the mission you gave me..." and instead of a normal answer the person says
"There is a more urgent task at hand! Your current orders are recinded because of the importance of this mission..."

And then you get a new mission.

2. As someone said before- scripted battles with cool events and large amounts of troops.

3. Lords should have personal armor so they are recogniseable on the battlefield (Eomer has the horsetail helm, Theoden has a shield, Turin had the dragon helm of hador [for a time, anyway] etc.)

4. more rewards for factions (mearas for rohan, ancient elven armor, use your imagination ;) )

5. Specialized battlefields. Ex. if you get into/join a battle in the osgiliath city "zone" you are fighting in a city. This could also have advantages/disadvantages to infantry, cavalry, archers, etc.

6. Ability to be "invisible" if you sneak up on enemy parties, allowing ambushes.

7. Tactics like flanking and phalanxing that require skill in tactics.

Remember, these are just ideas! Please don't flame me, because I don't even know if any of these ideas will work in the game.
Cheers,
pf7612
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 05, 2007, 08:53:11 PM
most of that stuff has been suggested before. I'm already sketching custom armors for the evil NPCs portraits, so we might use those as reference to distinguish them in the game later :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: onepostpony on August 05, 2007, 08:55:19 PM
7> Flanking and setting up a phalanx, in the way I think you're talking about, would require you to preposition your forces. That's going to be very hard to code for.

6> Being "invisible" is as "easy" as setting all the courage for every party template to 15.

5> They are going to wait for next version of the siege system and mod that, if possible. I agree, that would be cool.

4> That's just being greedy :D. I would much rather have the ability to commission gear for my cohorts for coin, influence and influence rate.

3> At the very least, Faramir should have something better than leather boots.

2> That would only benefit people with top-tier systems.

1> Has any other mod done that? Cause to be honest, that sounds like something that should proven by someone else.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 06, 2007, 07:41:30 AM
Sorry to break up your fun, but I've got an idea you guys might want to think about  ???
Since there's this problem with heroes being unable to be rescued when a faction falls, having their cells cave in around them as the faction capital crumbles or something. Why not create a 'prison' near the factions capital instead, and defeating the faction would greatly weaken the moral of the guards, or causing them to flee altogether ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: pf7612 on August 06, 2007, 08:16:59 AM
Yeah, thats a good idea.

@onepostpony:

Those were only ideas, so if they could work great, if not...then I'll come up with more ideas.
I just thought that it would be cool to have that stuff...I didn't know if it would work at all.

6> What do you mean?
4> That would be cool. I didn't mean too many new things, just a couple new ones.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: onepostpony on August 06, 2007, 12:05:06 PM
6> What do you mean?

If you can figure out how to edit party_templates.txt in such a way that the courage value for ALL enemy spawned parties is at 15, you can effectively attack any one you want without them running away.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Grocat on August 06, 2007, 12:38:41 PM
I am nearly 100% certain that someone has already suggested it, but it might be nice to have a wider variety of armoury items.  More specifically, a legendary polearm (of the swinging variety) for someone who uses polearms or perhaps legendary blunt weapons.  Anyway, I thought it might be kind of awesome to have some of that tossed in the mix.

-Grocat
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 06, 2007, 12:47:25 PM
I am nearly 100% certain that someone has already suggested it, but it might be nice to have a wider variety of armoury items.  More specifically, a legendary polearm (of the swinging variety) for someone who uses polearms or perhaps legendary blunt weapons.  Anyway, I thought it might be kind of awesome to have some of that tossed in the mix.

-Grocat

yup, has been suggested several times. We have some new guys going over the dialogs, I think we could have them go through the M-E-R-P items list and choose some usable stuff to increase variety. I also suggested some other ways to obtain unique items.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on August 06, 2007, 06:51:35 PM
6> What do you mean?

If you can figure out how to edit party_templates.txt in such a way that the courage value for ALL enemy spawned parties is at 15, you can effectively attack any one you want without them running away.

No, they will still run away.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: pf7612 on August 06, 2007, 07:51:37 PM
And besides, that's not what I meant. The enemy party would be en route to x. You, knowing where they are going cut them off and hide in the forest or whatever and then you spring on them and they immediately take losses and, depending on terrain (lets say a road surrounded by forest, just as an example) you start out on both sides of the road with archers/swordsmen in ambush positions. This would require certain units like in stealth missions.
Title: Separate the Capture Leader Missions
Post by: Khergit Kabob on August 07, 2007, 02:25:21 PM
"Capture Enemy Lieutenant" and "Capture Enemy Captain" missions should be separate from the others so I can always turn in enemy leaders without having to run around various towns asking for missions.  (Actually you try to get all the other missions covered in other towns so you can turn in lieutenants close to the front, but you get the idea.)

You happen to have a bunch of dudes standing around doing nothing at the various castles ... so make one of them "chief of intelligence" and the other "military intelligence" and the one always gives you a "capture captain" mission and the other a "capture lieutenant" mission.

Furthermore, allied factions should give these capture missions to allied players, so for instance a Gondor player could turn in Isengard lieutenants to the Rohan military intelligence chief.

Capturing lieutenants is central to advancing both in rank and level, and I shouldn't have to push a bunch of other missions out of the way in order to turn in my captured lieutenants.  It's too important to the game to make it such an inconvenience to get done.

You could also do a "Sheriff" character for Gondor and Rohan who would accept Brigand lieutenants, and I'd like to get credit for capturing enemy ally leaders, too (leaders of lesser hosts of Corsairs, Easterlings, etc.) but that's not particularly important.
Title: Raiders Mission Should Use Existing Army
Post by: Khergit Kabob on August 07, 2007, 02:42:21 PM
I'm putting my suggestions in separate threads.  Please tell me not to do this if you'd prefer I bunch them all together.

The "Raiders" mission actually hurts the war effort -- it spawns an enemy army which your forces then have to deal with.
Could you instead make the mission rename an existing enemy patrol to "Raiders" (like "Mordor Patrol" becomes "Mordor Patrol / Raiders") so that taking missions doesn't help the enemy cause?

I really don't think you even need a "Raiders" mission: you already have bounty missions for patrols, scouts, supplies, and great hosts.  Lesser hosts and enemy allies (i.e. Corsairs and Easterlings) are the only combat missions you don't have.  Why do you even need a Raiders mission?

"Capture Enemy Agent" is a bit redundant as well, but I actually enjoy these missions, so I won't complain.

Does successfully completing the "Capture Enemy Agent" mission cause the target faction to lose any of its strength?  If the mission is really that important it should be worth at least the same as killing off an enemy patrol.
Title: Re: Separate the Capture Leader Missions
Post by: slyspy on August 07, 2007, 06:33:04 PM
"Capture Enemy Lieutenant" and "Capture Enemy Captain" missions should be separate from the others so I can always turn in enemy leaders without having to run around various towns asking for missions.  (Actually you try to get all the other missions covered in other towns so you can turn in lieutenants close to the front, but you get the idea.)

You happen to have a bunch of dudes standing around doing nothing at the various castles ... so make one of them "chief of intelligence" and the other "military intelligence" and the one always gives you a "capture captain" mission and the other a "capture lieutenant" mission.

Furthermore, allied factions should give these capture missions to allied players, so for instance a Gondor player could turn in Isengard lieutenants to the Rohan military intelligence chief.

Capturing lieutenants is central to advancing both in rank and level, and I shouldn't have to push a bunch of other missions out of the way in order to turn in my captured lieutenants.  It's too important to the game to make it such an inconvenience to get done.

You could also do a "Sheriff" character for Gondor and Rohan who would accept Brigand lieutenants, and I'd like to get credit for capturing enemy ally leaders, too (leaders of lesser hosts of Corsairs, Easterlings, etc.) but that's not particularly important.

There are those, and I am one, who say that the capture missions should be removed since they are so very hard to accomplish. The battlefield is so random that in 300 game days of playing I have captured maybe three individuals. Your suggestion would at least move the capture quests to one side so that other tasks may be given.

I liked the Yogi mods for the previous TLD version. With those you could strip friendly units of their prisoners (I used to keep the leaders and disband the rest) and you could turn those leaders in at any time for a reward without having the quest. You could also reinforce any unit with any troops (or, if you wanted to, strip them of their best troops). All good features that should have made it into this version IMO.
Title: Lieutenant Captures
Post by: Khergit Kabob on August 07, 2007, 08:02:27 PM
You need to realize that every supply convoy is led by a lieutenant.

Capturing lieutenants is the primary way I gain rank.  I use either a military hammer or spiked mace, balanced if possible, and sometimes a couched iron staff.

What makes capturing lieutenants such a lucrative prospect is that in a supply convoy he'll be the only one on horseback, so you can easily get him alone and whack him.  Captains, who lead lesser and greater hosts, are always accompanied by cavalry, so they're much more difficult.

Generals are hard to distinguish from orcs, which makes them even harder to knock out.  If they wore gaudy plumed helmets or rode fire-snorting horses or some such they'd be much easier targets.

Another key to maximizing rank through lieutenant capture is to ALWAYS capture them, whether or not you have a mission to do so.  If you run out of prisoner slots stash your lieuts (loots, get it?) at the Eastway Inn then get back to work.  Never let a lieutenant escape your grasp!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 08, 2007, 03:51:32 AM
I once had seven Lieutenants and two Captains at the Eastfold Inn, and two Captains, a High Captain and two Lieutenants in my prisoner slots. The funniest thing happened, though. I'd only one other type of quest activated, and when I went to Théoden he asked me for a Lieutenant. Then he didn't have any quests for me. Then he asked for a Captain or High Captain three times in a row, then he didn't find a quest for me, and then he asked for another Lieutenant. Then he ordered me to kill Caravans. I got lucky :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Khergit Kabob on August 08, 2007, 11:26:08 AM
If you set things up right luck has little to do with it.
The worst-case scenario under my system is that you lose the lucrative "Capture Captains" mission when the Lord who gave it to you rides off with a Great Host.
That's okay, you can survive that.  The lieutenants are where the real bucks are.  But it still sucks.
In your case you got the "I have no missions for you" message, but just keep asking until he realizes what he really wants is one of your captured lieutenants.  Keep turning in lieutenants, but remember to never ask a Lord for a mission without at least 1 lieutenant captive, because if he asks for a lieutenant then rides off you're up the creek.
If I get a mission from the King other than "Capture Lieutenant" I try to perform that mission then ask other Lords for missions until that mission comes up, then I know the King will never assign that mission to me, making him more likely to assign me a lieutenant capture mission.

We're veering off-topic.  To review, this:
http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,110.msg13127.html#msg13127
is my request, to separate the capture officers quests from all the others.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 08, 2007, 04:52:18 PM
If you set things up right luck has little to do with it.

As I said, there was only ONE other quest active. So no setting it up right.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Heracles on August 10, 2007, 08:45:20 AM
I would like to see Aragorn,Legolas,Gandalf,Boromir,dwarves and Hobbits in game.
It seems good to join some story in the game.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 10, 2007, 10:31:40 AM
oh god.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Highlander on August 10, 2007, 10:49:31 AM
You forgot to mention plate armor.  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on August 10, 2007, 11:36:46 AM
hm,rohirim plate armor?  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 10, 2007, 11:41:12 AM
my point is that we just discussed a similar suggestion a while ago..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on August 10, 2007, 11:43:55 AM
what about adding mithril helmets in gondor's armoury?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on August 10, 2007, 11:44:12 AM
Well, he didn't ask for a mearas, at least.

AW should put as a reward item a horse called "Some kind of super fast, super armored high level rohirrim warhose" like the one guy asked for.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 10, 2007, 12:07:10 PM
what about adding mithril helmets in gondor's armoury?

well, I would say inlaid with mithril. But yeah, tower guards should have them.

Who made the old guard helms anyway? Llew? It's not that I think they're bad, I just like a different version (which I have in my mind and kinda have seen on some of Howe's pics..)..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 10, 2007, 01:39:19 PM
Way to be welcoming to the new guy... wow.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on August 10, 2007, 02:21:35 PM
Mae Govannen  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Khergit Kabob on August 10, 2007, 03:51:51 PM
How about an "Ask Gandalf" reward where in exchange for some influence He answers questions about the meaning of life, like where the Easterlings are hiding?  He could be available in Orthanc after you take down Isengard.

(I'm only half-joking ... tracking down the Easterlings ... ugh ...)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 10, 2007, 04:33:41 PM
Welcome to Tortuga, mate!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 10, 2007, 06:23:49 PM
How about an "Ask Gandalf" reward where in exchange for some influence He answers questions about the meaning of life, like where the Easterlings are hiding?  He could be available in Orthanc after you take down Isengard.

(I'm only half-joking ... tracking down the Easterlings ... ugh ...)

Having just done the same thing I have to say the biggest thing missing is some kind of big end-game battle. Just as mordor goes spent and wavering we need a big ass Greatest Host of Mordor led by Sauron himself out there to really go out with a bang. My game just kind of ended with a wimper...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 10, 2007, 08:46:34 PM
Having just done the same thing I have to say the biggest thing missing is some kind of big end-game battle. Just as mordor goes spent and wavering we need a big ass Greatest Host of Mordor led by Sauron himself out there to really go out with a bang. My game just kind of ended with a wimper...

You, Sir, have awesome ideas.

That should be the most awesome. It's out of character for Sauron not to be cowardly behind battlements, but having the Dark Lord himself step out with thick, menacing black lamellar, a mace the size of Grond and 1000-1200 two-handed proficiency.

Or, maybe a one-on-one with the dark lord in said attire. Like Elendil and Gil-galad before you.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Heracles on August 10, 2007, 11:45:13 PM
You forgot to mention plate armor.  :lol:

oh~ya,and rohirrims fight against haradrim elephants sounds pretty good! :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 10, 2007, 11:50:37 PM
Having just done the same thing I have to say the biggest thing missing is some kind of big end-game battle. Just as mordor goes spent and wavering we need a big ass Greatest Host of Mordor led by Sauron himself out there to really go out with a bang. My game just kind of ended with a wimper...

You, Sir, have awesome ideas.

That should be the most awesome. It's out of character for Sauron not to be cowardly behind battlements, but having the Dark Lord himself step out with thick, menacing black lamellar, a mace the size of Grond and 1000-1200 two-handed proficiency.

Or, maybe a one-on-one with the dark lord in said attire. Like Elendil and Gil-galad before you.

I really don't think he would step out of his fortress. It would more likely be you'd have to assemble all the surviving lords and their armies, march to the black gate, take it by force, then fight your way through Mordor and lay siege to Barad Dur. Heavy stuff.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on August 11, 2007, 12:47:43 AM
Actually, I belive Sauron was unable to recover a physical form until he recovered the One Ring. I'm no Tolkienist though, so I expect to be brutally corrected by Aryndil and the likes... :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on August 11, 2007, 01:19:05 AM
i wish i had read 'The Fellowship of the Ring'  :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on August 11, 2007, 02:53:53 AM

I really don't think he would step out of his fortress. It would more likely be you'd have to assemble all the surviving lords and their armies, march to the black gate, take it by force, then fight your way through Mordor and lay siege to Barad Dur. Heavy stuff.

I like this idea.  Some massive army of Rohan, Gondor and the Elves against all of Mordor and it's servants in huge ass siege scenario at the Black Gate.  The garrison at the Black Gate should be hard ass with a load of archers firing at you, trolls, olog hai, fell uruks charging at you and so on.  What I would really like would be a constant, thick hail of arrows from the gate by the archers, that'd look mad but it'd be impossible to survive without a big shield. 

Then maybe you have to maneuver your way up Barad Dur where there's a stealth mission to do something like escort Frodo (weak little brat at this stage that will die if a fly lands on him) or something (even though that isn't in the book)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: George W Harris on August 11, 2007, 07:44:10 AM
i wish i had read 'The Fellowship of the Ring'  :lol:

There is a way to address that issue.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 11, 2007, 09:32:04 AM
Actually, I belive Sauron was unable to recover a physical form until he recovered the One Ring. I'm no Tolkienist though, so I expect to be brutally corrected by Aryndil and the likes... :)

Ah, don't expect brutality, but correction is in place :P He did have a physical shape. He couldn't regain his full power without the Ring, but he did have a physical shape.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 11, 2007, 09:53:52 AM
The movie says the opposite. How it's in the book that I don't know. But the movies changed more things so I guess Aryndil's right.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 11, 2007, 10:38:06 AM
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/faq/sauronshape.html

This quote is from a letter explicitly discussing the War of the Ring and the end of the Third Age.

'Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.'
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on August 11, 2007, 10:50:29 AM
I really don't think he would step out of his fortress. It would more likely be you'd have to assemble all the surviving lords and their armies, march to the black gate, take it by force, then fight your way through Mordor and lay siege to Barad Dur. Heavy stuff.

(I like this. It's like Tolkien science fiction. Extreme "what if" scenarios.)

Still, in best case scenario for the good side, in this age:
the heaviest stuff I can imagine as a direct attact against Sauron is sealing Sauron inside Mordor, at Morannon; I would not go as far as making free people armies venture inside Mordor to siege anything. That would be a tad too far.

Instead, an united free army making a robust permanent garrison outside the black gate, thus giving all Middle Earth a temporary relif and sense of safety...  that is the grandest project and the closest thing (that I can see fitting) to a total victory.

Clearly, Sauron would try to break free with a massive army in the grand (scripted) final battle that we probably want in gameplay terms.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 11, 2007, 10:51:54 AM
The movie says the opposite. How it's in the book that I don't know. But the movies changed more things so I guess Aryndil's right.

Actually Sauron very nearly ended up fighting a duel with Aragorn at the end of ROK in the movies. He was digitally replaced with a Troll however when they decided that they liked the idea of Sauron remaining a desembodied "force" rather than a physical presence. One of the changes they made (Force vs Presence) which actually works better, imo, especially since there is no such confrontation in the books. In a game like M&B though I think a direct confrontation works much better.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 11, 2007, 11:22:31 AM
the Sauron they had in mind looked very cool though :) true Annatar as I imagined him.. (from the one and only picture they released..)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on August 11, 2007, 11:23:33 AM
Needless to say, we are not (as in: "apples are not blue") going to see Sauron in a battlefield in TLD.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 11, 2007, 11:27:00 AM
well, I wouldn't really mind out of a principal..but from a gameplay point of view it would be stupid..if you can beat (and you WOULD beat him..) Sauron, who else can they throw at you, right? :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on August 11, 2007, 12:53:10 PM
Actually, I belive Sauron was unable to recover a physical form until he recovered the One Ring. I'm no Tolkienist though, so I expect to be brutally corrected by Aryndil and the likes... :)

Ah, don't expect brutality, but correction is in place :P He did have a physical shape. He couldn't regain his full power without the Ring, but he did have a physical shape.

That's actually not very clear. I think he was more like a ringwraith. He had 'a shape', but not a coporeal body quite like you and me.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 11, 2007, 02:43:22 PM
well, I wouldn't really mind out of a principal..but from a gameplay point of view it would be stupid..if you can beat (and you WOULD beat him..) Sauron, who else can they throw at you, right? :D

That's why it would have to be in a final confrontation kind of situation. Obviously you don't want Sauron out and about from day 1...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 11, 2007, 04:37:34 PM
That's actually not very clear. I think he was more like a ringwraith. He had 'a shape', but not a coporeal body quite like you and me.

Possible, but I don't think so. When his body was destroyed by Gil-galad and Elendil, his spirit was trapped in the unseen realm. The escape from the unseen realm would be his attaining corporeality, after gathering enough of his power to do so. Although being invisible would explain how the Necromancer could escape Dol Guldur. Probably like how the incorporeal Ringwraiths traversed Rohan after losing their clothing and horses in Rhudaur.

But still, I'm inclined to believe that he was tangible. After all, the quote says he took the form of a man.

'Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.'
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on August 13, 2007, 01:22:29 AM
the Sauron they had in mind looked very cool though :) true Annatar as I imagined him.. (from the one and only picture they released..)

Is there a picture of this cool Sauron around?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on August 13, 2007, 08:56:31 AM
What do you mean, the only picture? They show some annatar cut scenes on the special edition dvd....
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 13, 2007, 10:46:21 AM
http://www.elfenomeno.com/info/tipocont/4/item/3661/titulo/Morannon (http://www.elfenomeno.com/info/tipocont/4/item/3661/titulo/Morannon)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on August 13, 2007, 12:42:30 PM
I still think that having Sauron himself (no less) in any battle in TLD is an awful idea; say, 5.5 times more awful that it would be to have Nazgul infantry, and more or less for the same reasons. Actually, I am surprised that this is not considered self evident. Am I misunderstanding something here?

Everything that shows up in the battlefiled is bound to end its carrear headshotted, mobbed by infantry, cauched-lanced, or otherwise mundanely killed in a very anticlimax way. Beside, if Sauron showed up is in battle, I would immediately ask where Gandalf is to counter him, not to mention the specifically anti-Sauron weapon, Anduril, or his wielder.

I wouldn't even know how Sauron's "actions" in a melee fight could possibly be represented, but I know how they could NOT: that is as a uber-stats but common character within a M&B fight system.


Still, and regardless, maybe we should move all this into a specific "What about having Sauron in TLD" thread, with images and so on.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 13, 2007, 01:05:21 PM
I said exactly that. In less words. So maybe I was misunderstood ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on August 13, 2007, 01:24:32 PM
I said exactly that. In less words. So maybe I was misunderstood ;)

Oops. You are 100% right.

As a side note, it is also true that I often use more words than it would be necessary or good. Sorry about that. Part of it is due to my lack of proficiency in English, which is not my mother language (surprise!). It takes more sentences for me in order to be sure not be misunderstood.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 14, 2007, 12:17:14 AM
Um...sorry to ruin your fun again, but since this is the suggestions thread....
The Lord of the Rings movies had probably about 10 solid hours in it, and most of it was probably spent on it's actors whispering to each other in hushed voices, but they still didn't make room for good old TOM BOMBADIL!
I'm just suggesting that TLD doesn't neglect him either =3
(I have no idea what his role in the game would be, but he deserves more respect than what the movies gave him) :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on August 14, 2007, 12:41:25 AM
Ol' Tom Bombadil doesn't care for wars, so what would he do in TLD? :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 14, 2007, 01:18:42 AM
Ol' Tom Bombadil doesn't care for wars, so what would he do in TLD? :)

Sing?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 14, 2007, 02:26:08 AM
Ol' Tom Bombadil doesn't care for wars, so what would he do in TLD? :)

Sing?

Just what we need ... Sir Robin and his minstrels.   ::)

Next somebody will be suggesting that coconuts migrate.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 14, 2007, 07:35:56 AM
I like it ;) Tom would make a nice little easter egg ;) maybe a quest to fight back the barrow wights or something..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 14, 2007, 09:30:06 AM
Ol' Tom Bombadil doesn't care for wars, so what would he do in TLD? :)

Sing?

Just what we need ... Sir Robin and his minstrels.   ::)

Next somebody will be suggesting that coconuts migrate.


Not at all... but they could be carried.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on August 14, 2007, 11:30:36 AM
Really minor, but I think a nice idea would be to allow you to choose what city you are from, THEN choose your race or class. That way you could be a goblin of Moria, or an elf of rivendale, or an axeman of Lossarnach. Prolly too much work than its worth tho, if it's even possible.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: BlackSamurai on August 14, 2007, 12:01:52 PM
Gondor (http://www.ea.com/official/lordoftherings/thebattleformiddleearth/us/gondor.jsp)
Mordor (http://www.ea.com/official/lordoftherings/thebattleformiddleearth/us/mordor.jsp)
Rohan (http://www.ea.com/official/lordoftherings/thebattleformiddleearth/us/rohan.jsp)
Isengard (http://www.ea.com/official/lordoftherings/thebattleformiddleearth/us/isengard.jsp)

New race and map?
Fellowship (http://www.ea.com/official/lordoftherings/thebattleformiddleearth/us/fellowship.jsp)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 14, 2007, 12:21:42 PM
please. Don't. Ever. Post. Anything. From. An. EA. Game. It's. based. on. the. movies. And. It's. Even. More. Screwed. Up.

Got it?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on August 14, 2007, 07:42:31 PM
Really minor, but I think a nice idea would be to allow you to choose what city you are from, THEN choose your race or class. That way you could be a goblin of Moria, or an elf of rivendale, or an axeman of Lossarnach. Prolly too much work than its worth tho, if it's even possible.

Nice idea, I would like it.

But why not the other way round? Select your race first, then the faction (as it is now), then the city. If you are a "beast", and you side with Isengard, then you can still be a "goblin from Moria", an "ork from Isengard", etc. Your faction is still "Isengard".

BTW, I really loved the old initial screen: "What are you: Man, or Beast?". Poetry.
Something died inside me when that was watered down to include "Elf". I don't think it is possible to consider Elves humans enough to be called men, is it? Maybe ask "what side are you: Men, or Beasts?", and, if you side with men, then you are from Rohan, or from Gondor, or an Elf?

Anyway, I would remove the "select starting point" dialog. The starting point is a small part of the characterization of the class you have chosen to be. We need characterization. If you are a Gondorian from Minas Tirith, well, you start you adventure at Minas Tirith.

In any case, as noted before, something should be done about the old guy. It does not matter where you start if you need to go to him first thing in any case. Maybe just give an option to activate that dialog automatically as soon as the game starts?






Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Dain Ironfoot on August 15, 2007, 12:52:43 PM
I'd really like to be a man with my allegiance in the north... Dunedain or one of Grimbeorn's folk. But thats probably just dreaming. But I've stated lots of times some of the developments I'd like to see in the elf war...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 17, 2007, 12:30:23 PM
Good Gods above, did he just suggest we include Lurtz or something?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 17, 2007, 06:12:50 PM
Why, doesn't mordor have enough 'dead' heroes?
and what's with Edoras? I see like... 50 heroes in there! (actually, about less than 10, but still, what they for?)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on August 17, 2007, 10:11:37 PM
Why, doesn't mordor have enough 'dead' heroes?
and what's with Edoras? I see like... 50 heroes in there! (actually, about less than 10, but still, what they for?)

Destroy Isengard and the Dunedain's and you'll see.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Grocat on August 18, 2007, 05:45:15 PM
Why, doesn't mordor have enough 'dead' heroes?
and what's with Edoras? I see like... 50 heroes in there! (actually, about less than 10, but still, what they for?)

Destroy Isengard and the Dunedain's and you'll see.

Dunlendings...as opposed to the people you wouldn't want to eradicate.

-Grocat
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 18, 2007, 06:56:58 PM
Besides, Dúnedain is already in plural, Dúnadan is the singular form.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: onepostpony on August 18, 2007, 09:10:19 PM
When one's host faction falls, could stragglers have a conversation with you every few days? In exchange for not much (pieces of food, a little dinar, etc ...) they join your group. You don't know what tier they are. All you know is that their is 4-7 of them and could be any combo of your crushed faction. Basically, I asking to be the leader of "Lost Host of <faction>."
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on August 20, 2007, 06:09:33 AM
Why, doesn't mordor have enough 'dead' heroes?
and what's with Edoras? I see like... 50 heroes in there! (actually, about less than 10, but still, what they for?)

Destroy Isengard and the Dunedain's and you'll see.

Dunlendings...as opposed to the people you wouldn't want to eradicate.

-Grocat

yeah what he said.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 20, 2007, 07:57:19 AM
yeah what he said.

How very contributory.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on August 20, 2007, 11:54:53 AM

And now, yet another "AW could implement this" suggestion:

NAVIGABLE RIVERS and SEAS

Quite simply: in appropriate Lorotien Elves cities, in Gondor sea-cities, and in Minas Tirith, you have an extra, menu-reachable location where you can bargain for a lift by boat (either among the Anduin, or across sea, or both). Evil sided player can do this in Umbar ports, and maybe in Osgiliath.

The lift costs you (money, influence, whatever - maybe, money in gondor but influence among elves). Depending on the starting place, this might be eligible only for small party sizes (and/or be limited to horseless parties).

A lift lets you "teleport" to a destination of your choice, selected from a menu in a list of possible destinations which, naturally, depends on the starting port. Taking a lift could cause a little time to pass anyway, in "fast-forward" mode.

The destinations need not be limited to friendly cities. They can also be easily identified locations on the map, near rivers, like places close to enemy cities.

If you are unlucky, the lift can trigger a fight with enemy garrisons among the river, or naval battles in the open sea (if they are to be included, as Merlkir suggested).

There could even be lord-assigned missions (on either side) specifically aimed at clearing said enemy river-garrisons/sea-pirates. Fulfilling these mission would unlock the possibility to get a lift, at all or to specific destinations (maybe not forever, but only for a long time until garrisons are reformed). For example, if you clear enough garrisons among anduin, you can go from Minas Tirith to Lorothien both ways, and so on. If these missions are added, a nice touch would be to let you navigate anywhere, while war didn't start yet.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Khergit Kabob on August 20, 2007, 01:08:07 PM
Quote
... navigable rivers ...

Ditto ditto ditto!  You could do this "thin" by having rafts you can pay a fare to ride between neutral coastal villages, or you could go "thick" by having specific ports for the Free Factions or Shadow, river combat mini-games, and river-related quests.

Either way a water route between the neutral villages near the Easterling camps would make fighting the Easterlings way more convenient.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 20, 2007, 02:38:33 PM
You mean like how the 'Gladiator mod' has ports and you can leave 'via port' or what-not?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 21, 2007, 02:06:30 AM
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I think that all the elven stuff (weapons in particular) should have much more... exotic looks. I know that this is a book mod, but maybe you could make something more resembling the film elven-equipment? I know that there already exist finnished models of film-like shields, swords and spears (misc-dain-gear.brf as far as I remember). I don't expect to see 100% film-like stuff. I'm only trying to say, that the current weapons (and some armour) that the elves use don't have this "elvish" feeling at all.
So maybe some more leaf-like blades? More one-sided, bent blades? Polearms with the ability to swing doing cutting damage, etc.? What do you think?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 21, 2007, 03:22:07 AM
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I think that all the elven stuff (weapons in particular) should have much more... exotic looks. I know that this is a book mod, but maybe you could make something more resembling the film elven-equipment? I know that there already exist finnished models of film-like shields, swords and spears (misc-dain-gear.brf as far as I remember). I don't expect to see 100% film-like stuff. I'm only trying to say, that the current weapons (and some armour) that the elves use don't have this "elvish" feeling at all.
So maybe some more leaf-like blades? More one-sided, bent blades? Polearms with the ability to swing doing cutting damage, etc.? What do you think?

Tolkien was very specific about the elves using straight-blade swords and other "European" type equipment - it was the orcs that used curved blades.  The fool movie did Asiatic fantasy theme for the elves, and a bunch of stuff that looked like it might not even work.  Furthermore,  ... well, just put it in the "movie mod" thread ... before you make some of the real Tolkien fans angry.

I'm not THAT big of a Tolkien fan, but I know the landslide that is coming from that suggestion, so I figure it's better that I cut it off before somebody starts asking for somebody to be banned.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 21, 2007, 04:29:53 AM
Tolkien was very specific about the elves using straight-blade swords and other "European" type equipment - it was the orcs that used curved blades.  The fool movie did Asiatic fantasy theme for the elves, and a bunch of stuff that looked like it might not even work.  Furthermore,  ... well, just put it in the "movie mod" thread ... before you make some of the real Tolkien fans angry.

I'm not THAT big of a Tolkien fan, but I know the landslide that is coming from that suggestion, so I figure it's better that I cut it off before somebody starts asking for somebody to be banned.


Yeah, but I am THAT big of a Tolkien fan (read the book more than 20 times) and that's why I don't recommend putting film-like gadgets into the game. I recommend only slightly more exotic looks for elven weapons. As I said - leaf-like blades would be perfect (remember the blade of the Sting?). Right now Rohan is more exotic than the elves as elves have just re-textured Gondor blades (or so it looks).
I myself have a couple of ideas as to how this should look like, but I'm just starting with Wings 3d (made my first bastard sword lately). When I get some more skill I might post something here. The problem is - I don't know anything about texturing...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 21, 2007, 05:27:31 AM
In that case, the person you need is Merlkir in the "concept art" thread - just draw some sketches on a napkin or something, scan them, and post your ideas there.  He heads up any changes in aesthetics, and that is the thread to get your stuff looked at and possibly incorporated. 

But put something together that people can see, even if it's just a pencil sketch, so everybody will have some idea what kind of changes you're talking about.  Expressions like "more exotic" could mean anything, and the confusion could work against you.


Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 21, 2007, 06:05:10 AM
Yeah, I noticed ;)

But thanks for the advice. I don't think that I'll be drawing anything since drawing is one of the skills I don't possess, but I might just get into those Wings and just show you my ideas in 3d :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on August 21, 2007, 06:55:39 AM
Tolkien was very specific about the elves using straight-blade swords and other "European" type equipment - it was the orcs that used curved blades.  The fool movie did Asiatic fantasy theme for the elves, and a bunch of stuff that looked like it might not even work.  Furthermore,  ... well, just put it in the "movie mod" thread ... before you make some of the real Tolkien fans angry.

I'm not THAT big of a Tolkien fan, but I know the landslide that is coming from that suggestion, so I figure it's better that I cut it off before somebody starts asking for somebody to be banned.


Yeah, but I am THAT big of a Tolkien fan (read the book more than 20 times) and that's why I don't recommend putting film-like gadgets into the game. I recommend only slightly more exotic looks for elven weapons. As I said - leaf-like blades would be perfect (remember the blade of the Sting?). Right now Rohan is more exotic than the elves as elves have just re-textured Gondor blades (or so it looks).
I myself have a couple of ideas as to how this should look like, but I'm just starting with Wings 3d (made my first bastard sword lately). When I get some more skill I might post something here. The problem is - I don't know anything about texturing...

If we decide to use your stuff, we can take care of the textures ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on August 21, 2007, 08:22:50 AM
Could Herugrim be placed in rohan's armoury if Theoden dies?sad to see that great blade just vanished after his death
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 21, 2007, 09:11:14 AM
Yeah, I noticed ;)

But thanks for the advice. I don't think that I'll be drawing anything since drawing is one of the skills I don't possess, but I might just get into those Wings and just show you my ideas in 3d :)

feel free to do so. I myself am kind of frustrated by the small variety of elven items we have. I was thinking (just today) about suggesting some ancient 2nd age elven armor with more...unusual parts. I'll put the idea together and post it in Concept Art as usual.
I always welcome suggestions on the visual part. If they're well thought out or visualised, the better.

edit: like...I kinda dig these concepts for TLA:

http://www.luisbejarano.com/tolkien/galerias/tlanoldor.html#1 (http://www.luisbejarano.com/tolkien/galerias/tlanoldor.html#1)
http://www.wildfiregames.com/~documents/conceptart/Naurwen/Noldor/NoldoLordBookTex.jpg (http://www.wildfiregames.com/~documents/conceptart/Naurwen/Noldor/NoldoLordBookTex.jpg)

also these figures have some nice classic designs :)
https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/index.php?cPath=25 (https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/index.php?cPath=25)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 21, 2007, 08:01:28 PM
Are city battles still out of the question? The re-enactment of the battle for Helms Deep and Osguilliath would be fun =3
Or maybe we can have randomly spawned camps pop up and we can attack small campsites instead  ???
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on August 21, 2007, 11:19:31 PM
The next version of M&B is supposed to have the siege system operationable instead of questionable, TLD is waiting for that I hear. That will be when the big guy, Armagen of the Taleworlds that made MB gets it ready for consumption.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 22, 2007, 12:04:19 AM
That, plus TLD will probably wait until other mods (probably Holy War - it's the closest right now) get a siege system that is acceptable to everyone, tested and ready to use.  The basic policy is not to incorporate anything that is unstable, questionable, or just looks really cheap.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 22, 2007, 12:42:54 AM
edit: like...I kinda dig these concepts for TLA:

http://www.luisbejarano.com/tolkien/galerias/tlanoldor.html#1 (http://www.luisbejarano.com/tolkien/galerias/tlanoldor.html#1)
http://www.wildfiregames.com/~documents/conceptart/Naurwen/Noldor/NoldoLordBookTex.jpg (http://www.wildfiregames.com/~documents/conceptart/Naurwen/Noldor/NoldoLordBookTex.jpg)

also these figures have some nice classic designs :)
https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/index.php?cPath=25 (https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/index.php?cPath=25)

I really like that Noldorin Lord concept.

But honestly - all these scetches ARE inspirated by the movies or the other way around, IMO.

I just remembered - the movie Elves were inspirated by the original Alan Lee ilustrations to Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings, here are some of his paintings:
http://images.gildia.pl/_n_/literatura/tworcy/j_r_r_tolkien/dzieci_hurina/okladka-640.jpg
http://middle-earth.febdian.net/image/battle-hornburg.jpg
http://www.tuckborough.net/images/eomer-lee.jpg
http://ardapedia.panprstenov.com/images/4/49/Ardapedia-helms-deep-alan-lee.jpg

and here are some more, although I'm not sure if they're Alan's:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mithrandircq/images/Tuor_Gelmir.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mithrandircq/images/Tuor.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mithrandircq/images/Gil-galad.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mithrandircq/images/Turinbegsleave.jpg

And these are the two things I would REALLY like to see in the game:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947149905805&orignav=16
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947149905803&orignav=16

GW originally had only the licence of the New Line Cinema, but they soon got the licence for all the books material (hence Glorfindel and Erestor - both didn't appear in the movie and both are in an armour design by GW).
Just take a closer look at the helmets...

Games Workshop's LotR SBG has a lot of great ideas that could... well, maybe not "be implemented" to TLD (all the licence gibberish, etc.), but definitely could be inspiring :)

As for the weapons - I personally like the idea of bent blades as this (IMO) suits ideally the elven fighting style (that's agility, speed and dexterity, not brutal strength). I have some experience with medieval weapons and I just know that straight blades require a lot of brute strength to wound someone :) E.g. did you know that usually medieval swords weren't even sharpened? Those "cutting" edges were just left blunt...

But I understand that someone might have this oh-my-god-it's-from-the-movie-bleeaaagh syndrome:)
A couple of post up I was talking about "leaf-shaped blades", and here's what I had in mind:

http://www.yourprops.com/norm-4388bf0a3fc17-Lord+Of+The+Rings.jpeg

And yes, I know that this Sting design is also from the movie, but I'm not talking about the whole sword - just the blade. I think that a longsword or a bastard sword with such a blade would look really nice.

Edit:

Here's my first try with Wings. It has the blade shape I mentioned. I suppose it's awful (AND untextured) but it'll give the idea of what I have in mind :)

(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4545/alaknarsbastardswordpb9.th.jpg) (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=alaknarsbastardswordpb9.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 22, 2007, 07:08:53 AM
1)Of course the sketches are inspired by the movies. But they leave out most of the elements that I hated about it and add some new that I like. Like the crests on helmets.

2)Don't worry, I love A.Lee's work and know it backwards. ;)
3)They're a mix of nasmith and some fanart..
4)Sorry, but GW's Glorfindel and Erestor are incredibly ugly, especially the helmets. I already have glorfindel of my own..
5) bent blades - It's not a matter what we think would work. It's what tolkien said they used. Straight blades. Period. I like the design and it fits the movies, but as J.Howe said in one of the WETA docummentaries on the DVDs: It's an idea from a WETA guy which everyone loved and only found later they were totally wrong. But they kept it. We won't. It's a beautiful and quite functional (whatever may Ron think ;)) design, but doesn't fit in.
6) leaf shaped blades are ok, Sting is cool, Glamdring is gorgeous. I've actually drawn some leaf shaped swords that I haven't shown yet. Mostly swords of westernesse and elven shit.
7) your sword...well....it's a bit short. Who's it for? I don't like the redundant spiky things all over, they stand out too much imho. As I said, the leaf shaped blade is ok.

8) most important thing :) Post visual related stuff to Concept Art thread! even models, textures, all that shit.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: dolfanar on August 22, 2007, 08:38:10 AM
6) leaf shaped blades are ok, Sting is cool, Glamdring is gorgeous. I've actually drawn some leaf shaped swords that I haven't shown yet. Mostly swords of westernesse and elven shit.

Glamdring may be the best looking sword design I've ever seen (And I'm something of a sword nut) and EASILY the prettiest blade ever put on film. Leaf shaped blades would rock. I do like the idea they had about uniform shapes to differentiate the races. Dwarves had very "boxy" straight geometric shapes whereas elves had NO straight lines (which works for the leaf shaped blades beautifully) at all.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 22, 2007, 09:35:05 AM
Al'ight, time to break the train of thought :-[

instead of having your men change tactics outside of battle, can't you have them change tactics 'during' the battle?
Say I got my Tower Guard buddies in ranks with spear poking holes through horsemen and their mounts, maybe I could tell them to draw swords in a counter charge against the infantry once they catch up?~

I'm not sure if it's possible or acceptable, but it would be fun  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 22, 2007, 09:53:33 AM
Al'ight, time to break the train of thought :-[

instead of having your men change tactics outside of battle, can't you have them change tactics 'during' the battle?
Say I got my Tower Guard buddies in ranks with spear poking holes through horsemen and their mounts, maybe I could tell them to draw swords in a counter charge against the infantry once they catch up?~

I'm not sure if it's possible or acceptable, but it would be fun  :green:

I'm quite sure that's impossible.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on August 22, 2007, 10:05:46 AM
instead of having your men change tactics outside of battle, can't you have them change tactics 'during' the battle?
[...]
I'm not sure if it's possible or acceptable, but it would be fun  :green:

Hum.. I dunno much about this but:
I remember seeing a video on you-tube showing an unspecified M&B mod in action which seemed to do that.
In the middle of the battle, a multi-options dialog screen would pop up with what seemed to be various combat strategy options, then it went back to the battle. That, multiple times.

It was quick and blurred so I am not sure.
And, I don't know which MOD was it. I think the video was titled as something with "300" in it.

It broke the action if you ask me, and planning your strategies before the battle, and not in the middle of the chaotic struggle, seems more realistic to me. Unless orders are really quick and immediate one.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 22, 2007, 01:13:20 PM
By the way - if there's the couched lance damage bonus, would it be possible to get a... I don't know a "couched pike" bonus for infantry against cavalery charge? I've heard of a mod that allowed crouching, but it was really badly done (like only when NOT in a fight, etc.).

My idea's that - when an infantry pikeman/spearman crouches and holds his position, the pike/spear becomes "fortified/couched" (sorry, I don't know the proper term) and deals a great ammount of dammage to incomming mounted enemies (e.g. the same bonus-factor as would the rider have, only opposite directed :) )

It would be really neat, IMO :)

--> Merlkir

Yeah, you're right. Couldn't figure out the scale and here's the result - a two handed potato knife.
As for the spiky things - you're right again :) The sword was supposed to be a two hander (they had another grip, just above the hilt that was protected with such "spikes") but somewhere during the process it became (or should) a bastard sword.

I'll rework the sword... and post it in the Concept Art :)

As for Glorfindel's helmet - I love it. TLD's Gondor Archer's helmet's quite simmilar, IMO.
Anyway - the helmet shows how I would like to see the elves - it's exotic, a bit alien, but definitely not Japanese :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 22, 2007, 11:55:43 PM
Everybody wants the ability to set lances from foot - either fix them against the ground to take cav charge, or just extend them and force an approaching enemy to avoid them.  Tragically, like passive shield use, we really have to wait a few versions of M&B.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 23, 2007, 07:10:31 AM
A phalanx of Tower Guard would be nice....although it (obviously) would be tough to implement and it would probably take away the advantages of a cavalry charge, whereas the pikes of foot troops are generally longer than the cavalry pikes since cavalry need smaller spears for meneuverability. You would probably start noticing that infantry start doing 'couched pikes' more often than the cavalry using 'couched lances'. If horses die more often than they kill with lances, they would make jousting look like a pretty retarded sport  :-\
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 23, 2007, 07:20:24 AM
Historically, set pikes only really worked against a cav charge if the pikes were stationed at least six ranks deep, and then only from straight ahead.  That's why European armies worked so hard to do close-order formations (which remained dominant throughout the age of black powder guns as well).  It's hard to plant a pike into the ground and then control it well enough to hit an oncoming horse solidly, especially if the horse has some armor.  Then, even if you wound the horse, you could still be run over and trampled.  It's a risky maneuver.

Seriously, maybe future versions of the M&B engine will include some of this.  Until then, not much can be done about it.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boosh on August 23, 2007, 12:08:10 PM
Some of the game's pikes are definitively powerful enough to stop charges. I armed one of my characters, Bergil, with a Tower Pike, a large shield, and got a mithril sword as backup. Now, he's pretty strong, but even in his weaker days the pike eliminated horses with one hit to the side or front and more often than not skewered the riders. If you can outfit your NPC's with tower pikes and tell them to follow you enemy cavalry should have a rough time.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 23, 2007, 01:26:34 PM
wait...can your companions actually switch melee weapons? I usually give them a sword and a shield and leave them with their starting armor, maybe replacing the shirt with some mithril, and that's it  ???

yea, and of course a fast change option would be best for weapon switching during battles, something like the current infantry formation orders, though I would appreciate it if the button was closer to the tab key so I don't have to be inactive for a second during battle to push buttons, losing precious HP in the process  :-\
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on August 23, 2007, 01:54:50 PM
wait...can your companions actually switch melee weapons?

no
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Juice on August 24, 2007, 04:17:51 AM
I've got a minor idea:

How about giving a spear which head resembles serpent to the haradrim?

Here's some examples which I found (I thought about them without that red decoration):
http://kongming.net/7/i/i/11shemao.jpg
http://kongming.net/7/i/i/12tiejishemao.jpg
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 24, 2007, 07:09:43 AM
yup, I've head something like that in mind for the black snakes. Nice pics, but a bit small.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Juice on August 24, 2007, 07:57:11 AM
yup, I've head something like that in mind for the black snakes. Nice pics, but a bit small.

I would have drawn them but my drawing skills aren't so good. Those are the best (and closest to the which I thought) examples I found.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Bloid on August 24, 2007, 08:31:47 PM
As for the weapons - I personally like the idea of bent blades as this (IMO) suits ideally the elven fighting style (that's agility, speed and dexterity, not brutal strength).

Just a post-Tolkien fantasy trope... we could have one bent sword - "Egalmoth's Blade" - and it would have to be a special item.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 26, 2007, 09:07:14 PM
Wouldn't bent blades be mainly used for slashing? That doesn't seem very elven like, slitting throats and cutting limbs 24/7...unless you're talking about drow, which I don't believe exist in Tolkiens fantasy world.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 26, 2007, 10:06:28 PM
Wouldn't bent blades be mainly used for slashing? That doesn't seem very elven like, slitting throats and cutting limbs 24/7...unless you're talking about drow, which I don't believe exist in Tolkiens fantasy world.

Actually, there is very little usage difference.  Modern "martial arts" and re-enactment groups make a big deal of something being from a particular region, but realistically the differences were usually minor.  A few weapons (say, the rapier) have particular or limited uses, but this is not really the rule.  Usually the preference for straight or curved blades was either aesthetic or technical (i.e. Japanese blades were curved because of the tempering method they used).

A straight sword, if longer than a gladius and heavier than a rapier, is also used primarily for "slashing".
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: fujiwara on August 26, 2007, 10:26:51 PM
A straight sword, if longer than a gladius and heavier than a rapier, is also used primarily for "slashing".


...And a curved sword, if not a semi-circular khopesh, can be an effective thrusting weapon.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 27, 2007, 11:53:32 AM
Well, then again, it's how much the blade is curved that affects this....like crescent curved or uh...bent curves  ???
I seriously can't imagine thrusting with a sickle ><!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 27, 2007, 12:54:37 PM
Actually, bent blades are perfect for thrusting. It's more complicated to defend against such an attack.

As an example - here are some pics of polish sabers. Great weapons, bent blades, ideal for cutting, but thrusts were very common in polish fencing:

http://platnerstwo.pl/graf/karabela1.jpg (http://platnerstwo.pl/graf/karabela1.jpg)
http://platnerstwo.pl/graf/batorowka.jpg (http://platnerstwo.pl/graf/batorowka.jpg)
http://www.szable.pl/photos/ot13 (http://www.szable.pl/photos/ot13)

(I've taken the links from another M&B mod web-page - With Fire and Sword: http://www.withfireandswordmod.fora.pl/place-where-you-can-find-pictures-of-armies-weapons-armours-f3.html?sid=801337495b229800d2efcf5b20099b85 (http://www.withfireandswordmod.fora.pl/place-where-you-can-find-pictures-of-armies-weapons-armours-f3.html?sid=801337495b229800d2efcf5b20099b85)

And by the way - is slitting someone's throat less "elegant" than cutting off someones leg? :)

Anyway - what about the other elven nations? Will Moriquendi and Noldor be playable?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 27, 2007, 01:33:40 PM
Actually, every Elf alive in Middle-earth is a Moriquenda, save Galadhriel alone. As for Noldor - I can easily imagine having two Elven races to pick from, the Teleri with their ken for bows and woodlands, and the Noldor with knowledge of healing and swordfighting.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 28, 2007, 12:31:24 AM
Actually, every Elf alive in Middle-earth is a Moriquenda, save Galadhriel alone. As for Noldor - I can easily imagine having two Elven races to pick from, the Teleri with their ken for bows and woodlands, and the Noldor with knowledge of healing and swordfighting.

Actually every Elf alive in the Gray Heavens and Imladris was a Noldor (or a half-noldor :) ), every Elf alive in Lothlorien was a Sindar (except for Galadriel who was a Noldor also) and every Elf alive in Mirkwood was a Moriquendi...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 28, 2007, 02:27:29 AM
Oh, jolly good, then, it's on!

Imladris: The Elves of Imladris were primarily Noldorin in descent, although there would be a fair number of Falathrin descendants because Elrond withdrew to the valley with the remnant of the army of Lindon that he led during the Second Age, after being utterly defeated by Sauron's forces following the fall of Eregion. Therefore, not only Noldor.

Lindon: The only part of Beleriand that was left after the War of Wrath and the sundering of the world, was a small portion of Ossiriand, the land of the Laiquendi, woodelves who took no king after the death of Denethor in the infancy of the First Age. This later became Lindon. More than half of the Elves living there would be Woodelves, 30-40% would be Círdan's Falathrim, and a tiny minority would be Noldor, and most of these Noldor would be of Fingolfin's kind, survivors of the Third Kinslaying.

Lórien: The population of Lórien would be almost all Silvan. In the Second Age, a Sindarin Prince or Lord, presumably Amdír or someone of his family, led one of many marches eastwards. He settled in the forest of Lothlórien and on the plains surrounding the woodlands, and on the great rivers surging through. The Sindar of Lórien would not even come close to rivalling the original inhabitants in terms of numbers, but with the technology, culture and leadership they brought, they were a natural leadership caste. Later on, Galadhriel and Celeborn led a number of remnants from Ost-in-Edhil, the capital of Eregion, through Moria and into Lórien. This happened in numbers far inferior to both the Silvan people and the Sindarin caste. One would assume a 60% Silvan, 30% Sindarin and 10% Noldorin heritage in Lothlórien.

Mirkwood: The most numerous of all Elven peoples in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age. As much as 70-80% would be Silvan Elves, with Oropher's Sindarin people constituting the rest of the population, although the culture of Mirkwood would be unmistakably Silvan, in all aspects but the language - most people spoke Sindarin, although Woodelven might still be spoken by a minority.

Although with a single or very few exceptions, these are all Moriquendi. A Moriquenda, as opposed to a Calaquenda, is someone who has not seen the light of the Two Trees.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on August 28, 2007, 04:34:21 AM
I have a totally different suggestion.  This ties along with people being impatient for the new release.

I've been noticing that there are so many people that like creating art, have great suggestions (and ways to implement them), etc. that it would be more beneficial to AW to create a "board" of people who oversee the development of TLD.  It wouldn't have be 3 trillion people, maybe only 4 or 5 that head one specific area or all mix and share.  In any case, those people would be able to get the work done much quicker, take less pressure off of AW (and the few others that are helping develop the program) and allow for updates to be released much quicker.  Of course the negative aspects would be that not only one person would have the final say for the TLD mod.  While this could complicate things, a simple consensus (majority rules) would do for future updates.  This solution would help nurture TLD enormously.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 28, 2007, 04:55:34 AM
A board? Chairman AW and Chairman Merlkir? Let's not complicate things too much.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on August 28, 2007, 06:05:54 AM
While your comment did a good job of making my suggestion sound less appealing due to you making it sound complex, complexity is definitely not a part of my suggestion. 

My understanding is that there are already several people working directly with AW.  I'm just suggesting to "formalize" that and have them share their information directly with each other.  In a sense, make TLD "open-source" amongst a few people.  That would speed up the process and make less work for those involved in the actual patchwork.  That would mean that TLD gets the bugs fixed quicker and made more realistic. 

Chairman does sound so complicated...therefore this idea must also be complicated. ???
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 28, 2007, 07:02:53 AM
No, I used the word 'chairman' to illustrate how bloody serious your suggestion was. This isn't a corporation, it's a small mod.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 28, 2007, 07:14:09 AM
no, Aryndil, I think he's got a bit of a point. I've thought about us having a private dev thread or subforum. Thread would do probably. I think it would be good to know what AW wants to do, what he wants us do and to know what the others are doing. As some things are nice to be kept secret even for us, I would sometimes like to be inspired by work the other people do.

Not sure if it's what he meant, my eyes and my brain are tired from work :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 28, 2007, 09:07:25 AM
Well, normal organizational pattern on this sort of thing is just a two-layer - mod compiler and contributors.  Generally speaking, communication between the mod compiler and any one of the contributors can be done by PM, e-mail, or instant message service of choice, not specifically visible on the forum.  Small groups that go off doing their own thing (like the map rework thread, or my testing routine on the RCM) are eventually condensed to a single contribution before being sent to the compiler.

Since AW is doing most or all of the code himself (also common on this type of project), there's not really that much back-and-forth here.  AW specifically wants to do the code himself ... I had this discussion with him when working up the RCM stats.  It's the way he keeps a handle on things.

I mean, if it's not broke, don't fix it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 28, 2007, 09:38:06 AM
I think that a thread with general info on what's currently going on and what still needs someone to be looked upon is a good idea. It might speed up the works.

As for suggestions - how about implementing CraftMod into TLD? CraftMod's gone open-source so there wouldn't be a problem with licence, etc.


--> Father Chains

Quote from: Father Chains
Actually, every Elf alive in Middle-earth is a Moriquenda, save Galadhriel alone.

Quote from: Father Chains
Oh, jolly good, then, it's on!

Imladris: The Elves of Imladris were primarily Noldorin in descent, although there would be a fair number of Falathrin descendants because Elrond withdrew to the valley with the remnant of the army of Lindon that he led during the Second Age, after being utterly defeated by Sauron's forces following the fall of Eregion. Therefore, not only Noldor.

So now it's "not only Noldor", not "save for Galadriel alone" anymore? :)

Quote from: Father Chains
Lindon: The only part of Beleriand that was left after the War of Wrath and the sundering of the world, was a small portion of Ossiriand, the land of the Laiquendi, woodelves who took no king after the death of Denethor in the infancy of the First Age. This later became Lindon. More than half of the Elves living there would be Woodelves, 30-40% would be Círdan's Falathrim, and a tiny minority would be Noldor, and most of these Noldor would be of Fingolfin's kind, survivors of the Third Kinslaying.

Lórien: The population of Lórien would be almost all Silvan. In the Second Age, a Sindarin Prince or Lord, presumably Amdír or someone of his family, led one of many marches eastwards. He settled in the forest of Lothlórien and on the plains surrounding the woodlands, and on the great rivers surging through. The Sindar of Lórien would not even come close to rivalling the original inhabitants in terms of numbers, but with the technology, culture and leadership they brought, they were a natural leadership caste. Later on, Galadhriel and Celeborn led a number of remnants from Ost-in-Edhil, the capital of Eregion, through Moria and into Lórien. This happened in numbers far inferior to both the Silvan people and the Sindarin caste. One would assume a 60% Silvan, 30% Sindarin and 10% Noldorin heritage in Lothlórien.

Mirkwood: The most numerous of all Elven peoples in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age. As much as 70-80% would be Silvan Elves, with Oropher's Sindarin people constituting the rest of the population, although the culture of Mirkwood would be unmistakably Silvan, in all aspects but the language - most people spoke Sindarin, although Woodelven might still be spoken by a minority.

Although with a single or very few exceptions, these are all Moriquendi. A Moriquenda, as opposed to a Calaquenda, is someone who has not seen the light of the Two Trees.

Jolly good, I see you know a lot of Middle-earth's history. There's a thread here somewhare about correcting some differences between TLD and the books - you should read it.

As for the Noldor\something argument - you have contradicted yourself with this post, you know? I have pointed it out on the top of my post.
As for the Moriquendi term - yes, you are right. But haven't you noticed that the Noldor who were NOT born in Aman still call themselves Noldor? And their descendats also call themselves Noldor? That's what I meant when I used the term "Noldor" :)
The same with the Sindar of Lothlorien.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 28, 2007, 12:15:33 PM
craftmod would be a bit of a pain in the ass to implement...you see..with this shitload of items we have made custom...would be lots of work..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 29, 2007, 01:25:20 AM
craftmod would be a bit of a pain in the ass to implement...you see..with this shitload of items we have made custom...would be lots of work..

Darn... Well, maybe someday :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 29, 2007, 02:39:32 AM
So now it's "not only Noldor", not "save for Galadriel alone" anymore? :)

Jolly good, I see you know a lot of Middle-earth's history. There's a thread here somewhare about correcting some differences between TLD and the books - you should read it.

As for the Noldor\something argument - you have contradicted yourself with this post, you know? I have pointed it out on the top of my post.
As for the Moriquendi term - yes, you are right. But haven't you noticed that the Noldor who were NOT born in Aman still call themselves Noldor? And their descendats also call themselves Noldor? That's what I meant when I used the term "Noldor" :)
The same with the Sindar of Lothlorien.

With 'save for Galadhriel alone', I spoke of Moriquendi. She is the only Calaquenda, with the possible exception of Maglor, who was said to still walk around on beaches singing, but that's just a myth, I'd wager. Any other Calaquendi would be significant enough to be mentioned. By 'not only Noldor', I spoke of the inhabitants of Rivendell. I really don't see where you're going with this, the two are as unconnected as the bloodline of Númenor and the Kingdom of Gondor. Can't say I contradicted myself there.


As for what you meant when you used the term 'Noldor' - I think it's awkwardly clear what you meant:

Actually every Elf alive in the Gray Heavens and Imladris was a Noldor (or a half-noldor :) ), every Elf alive in Lothlorien was a Sindar (except for Galadriel who was a Noldor also) and every Elf alive in Mirkwood was a Moriquendi...

You said every Elda of Lórien was a Sinda, every last one still drawing breath, apart form only Galadhriel, and every elf of Mithlond and Imladris was a Noldo or a half-blood. If you meant to say someting else, you might consider giving your posts a moment's thought before you click 'Post' to make sure you're getting your message across.

A Noldo is a Noldo, no matter where he or she is. It's an ethnicity, not merely a nationality. Their descendants wouldn't have much else to call themselves, unless they were as much or more a different race. But a Noldo isn't a Calaquenda unless he/she has personally dwelled by the Two Trees, as I've insisted before.


Last, but certainly not least, this factual thread... somewhare? Arrogance aside, I'm not sure I'd find anything new there.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on August 29, 2007, 04:05:31 AM
Instead of petty arguments over made up lineages based on a a fictional work you could go back to posting suggestions for TLDs.

I'd like more varied weather. Most of my battles take place in glorious sunshine.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 29, 2007, 04:41:00 AM
Instead of petty arguments over made up lineages based on a a fictional work you could go back to posting suggestions for TLDs.

Well, Mr. Fancy-Pants, I'm sorry I offended your snotty, uptight arse with what you feel is petty argument. Please forgive me as soon as you can, and shove a sock in it for the entire duration of my pettiness.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 29, 2007, 06:55:11 AM
I think the thread he meant was the one where guys dedicate themselves to change the dialogs and descriptions to be true to tolkien lore...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 29, 2007, 07:41:30 AM
--> Father Chains

http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,789.0.html (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,789.0.html)

There's all the fun you want. It's all Tolkien-lore there, and I posted there something so you can correct my serious mistakes. We all know how terrible is the game-mechanics difference between Moriquendi and Calaquendi, right?

But seriously, and to everyone - don't you think, that the elves (any kind of any heritage :) ) SHOULD be a lot more powerfull than the humans? I'm not talking about the levels of troops, I'm talking about hero statistics and skills.
Besides the fact that that's what the books say, IMO the elven campaign is hard enough. And when someone (at least someone who has read the books) picks an elven character he expects to get an Tolkien-like elven character, not a human with different eyes and starting equipment...

What do you think?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on August 29, 2007, 02:20:06 PM
And that's where we agree a hundred percent, Al. I also think that we should be able to choose Elven race.

A Noldo would be strong, and intelligent, a great wielder of swords. They'd have lots of Iron Skin and Power Strike, in addition to healing arts, since any Noldo west of the Hithaeglir would most likely be of Lórien or Rivendell, two great places of learning and healing.

A Telerin Woodelf would be a master with the bow, and much more agile and stealthy, with a high pathfinding, athletics and tracking, along with a strength score just as high as a Noldo, but with the points put into Power Draw and Iron Skin, instead of Power Strike. Like Tolkien said, Legolas the Woodelf would be immensely strong and resistant to hurt, hence, Power Draw and Iron Skin. Mirkwood elves also used spears to a very large extent, so they'd get polearm skills too.

The Sindar would have more balanced combat skills, polearms, two-handers, archery and one-handers. They'd have equal agility and strength, but with charisma being a special field. The Woodelves lacked structure, and the Noldor have a long history of reckless behaviour and ignoring orders and decrees - where the Sindar took over two of the largest Elven Kingdoms of Middle-earth with small groups of immigrants, and forming a ruling class. Obviously, they have the organisational skills the Silvan kind lacks, and the discipline the Noldor don't have. Wouldn't be fair to stereotype them like this, but it'd make some sense.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 29, 2007, 10:52:09 PM
A walkthrough on obtaining traits?  :green:
I mean, I just went through a battle with less than 100 vs about 350 troops(Great host of mordor+Legion of Udun+Legion of Gargoroth) and I've lost all but about less than 30 of my men, casualties including Mablung, and I still didn't get bravery or Infantry commander  ???
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Templarion on August 30, 2007, 02:15:40 PM
Greetings TLD community!

This is my first post in these forums. There are over 60 pages of suggestions so I am not going to read them but just to post my own ideas.

I have been playing the game about 20-30 hours now with my dunleding female warrior. First I tried to create a female Rohan warrior but that was not possible (I don't know is it supposed to be so or is it a bug) so I decided to fight against those bastards who didn't let my girl to fight.

1) Orcs are far too weak allies. I still don't understand how is it possible that might of Rohan, Gondor and Lorien has been diminished by such a pathethic warriors. My group of 30 orcs/dunleding warriors cannot defeat 20 rohan warriors without my help. Sometimes I feel that I am just recruiting punch of meatbags to shield my charges and confuse enemies. Sometimes I just order my allies to "Hold this position" so they won't get themselves killed. Orcs should be fearless and terrible enemies that strike hard and without mercy!

2) There is not a "back/cancel" button in the beginning where you are selecting the area where your hero begins his adventure. I am not sure is it possible to make such (after all there is not such a button in the character creation of original M&M either) but if it is there should be one.

3) Humans who are fightning as allies with Mordor can eat their prisoners. I understand that orcs do that but I guess that humans shouldn't  :shock:. I am sure that designers know this so this is basicly just a reminder. By the way, what else can I do with prisoners?

In the end, this is a very good mod and after playing this I don't see any reason to play original M&M never again. I understand that there is lots of development still going on and that's why I am not even suggesting the most ordinary things that probably has been already suggested.

Thank you all who are doing this great job and delivering this great stuff for us for free!  :)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 30, 2007, 04:54:43 PM
In general, orcs are supposed to be monstrous little things who are bred for battle. Therefore, orcs don't really have any combat training, they just learn straight from the fires of war.  If you just recruit them, you've got orcs, but not orc soldiers, so don't let them run free during battles, give them some sort of strategy to go by to increase their effectiveness. Go kick around some peasants for a while until your orcs learn how to swing a sword properly or something.

And evil men eating prisoners...that sounds 'almost' okay. If you hang around cannibals for a while, you would probably get the urge for man flesh as well  :-\
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on August 31, 2007, 04:18:21 AM
No, he is correct. I've found playing the Evil faction to be an exercise in frustration. This is mainly due to the low armour levels of all the Evil forces, including (most annoyingly) the high tier human units. I don't mind the fact that the bad guys fall so much more easily than the good guys but it does annoy me that armour level also seems to have a bearing on whether the casualty lives or dies. It seems to me that, proportionally, the lighter the armour the more likely it is that a casualty will die.

Seems fair enough on paper of course but IMO it harms gameplay as the evil factions if even your (few) high tier troops die really easily.

Edit:

It would also up the challenge for the good guys if at least the elite on the evil side had more survivability.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on August 31, 2007, 05:12:09 AM
No, he is correct. I've found playing the Evil faction to be an exercise in frustration. This is mainly due to the low armour levels of all the Evil forces, including (most annoyingly) the high tier human units. I don't mind the fact that the bad guys fall so much more easily than the good guys but it does annoy me that armour level also seems to have a bearing on whether the casualty lives or dies. It seems to me that, proportionally, the lighter the armour the more likely it is that a casualty will die.

Seems fair enough on paper of course but IMO it harms gameplay as the evil factions if even your (few) high tier troops die really easily.

Edit:

It would also up the challenge for the good guys if at least the elite on the evil side had more survivability.

Casualty/fatality rate in M&B is based on only two things - the type of damage (blunt is always non-lethal) and the surgery skill.

The orcs have mid-range armor earlier than their human counterparts, but in the Native-based damage model, that only adds up to a couple of points and a stick will still take them out just as fast as a sword. (Faster, actually, I think, if I did the math right.)  The orcs get the worst of it because the horses are pretty much unstoppable with melee weapons.  Arrows also seem to penetrate ANY degree of armor, even though they won't stop a man even if you shoot him in the eye.  Trash like that is what prompted the creation of the hotly debated RCM, which is still to be released if and when 2.3.2 comes out.  Do check it out ... the armor will make more sense then, and some of the other quirky balance issues iron themselves out as well.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 31, 2007, 08:13:40 AM
The main difference between the Good and Evil armies in the books was that the Evil had loads of troops, while the Good had relatively small numbers of men.

In M&B it means that the Evil had supreme commanders (i.e. high Leadership skill).

IMO, this sucks.

Is it possible to make units "weight" less or more points of the party limit? The hero could then buy two orcs for 1 point of team limit and that would make up for the worse equipment the Evil side has AND would give the impression of vast ammounts of cannon fodder that the Eye and the Hand put into battle.

If only it is possible...

And another thing that annoys me quite much.
We all know that the Noldor were the best of all craftsmen on Ea, right? Not only in Middle-earth but also in Aman their skills surpassed all other nations' skills in crafting items of any kind. Their weapopns were the sharpest, their armour was the toughest, etc., etc.
And in TLD we can find a Noldorin Sword. A child of a master-blacksmith's hand, right?
Well, not quite. In fact, the Noldorin Sword sucks. It does some 26 cutting damage when swung with 102 reach and speed. A Gondorian Sword beats almost all (or maybe just all, can't remember) of these stats and is much cheaper.

This is ridiculus. IMO every Noldorin weapon should be really great, every elven weapon should be great. That's what the books say.

Howgh!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 31, 2007, 11:30:19 AM
You guys remember how I suggested corsair gondor ship battles?
This is from Swadian Civil War and I think it would work perfectly:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6102418484444444736&q=mount+and+blade+ship+battle&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6102418484444444736&q=mount+and+blade+ship+battle&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on August 31, 2007, 01:26:10 PM
Looks great! I'd like to see it in TLD!

I just got another idea - is it possible to create scripted global events? Like: Aragorn lands with his army of the dead, after wich a great host of dead with Aragorn as the leader would spawn south of MT.

With carefull scripting you could re-create the actual War of the Ring.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Templarion on August 31, 2007, 02:09:17 PM
I have nothing against difficulty but killing rohans with orcs is just a pain in the ass. It is me who does all the work.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on August 31, 2007, 02:39:23 PM
Looks great! I'd like to see it in TLD!

I just got another idea - is it possible to create scripted global events? Like: Aragorn lands with his army of the dead, after wich a great host of dead with Aragorn as the leader would spawn south of MT.

With carefull scripting you could re-create the actual War of the Ring.

read previous suggestions. We thought about it before.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on August 31, 2007, 03:50:06 PM
Snap, I'll need to create a platoon of archers  ???
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: adderbrain5 on September 01, 2007, 03:06:52 PM
tell me you cant see this:you go up to king theoden in methuseld  "well(insert your name here)"
                                                                                             "id like to make a request"
                                                                                                    "dont waste my time"
                                                                                            "id like to acess the stables of edoras and the golden hall"
                                                                       at this point 2 things could happen. either you could get the ol your not good enough to have rohirric horse lords, or you could get the old "you have earned it choose wisely" at this point you could choose from the horse lords to ride into baddle shadowfax namely but he would have to be like speed 22 manuvre 18 charge 34 armor 25 and he would have to be like 500influence
                                   
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Alaknar on September 01, 2007, 03:45:59 PM
tell me you cant see this:you go up to king theoden in methuseld  "well(insert your name here)"
                                                                                             "id like to make a request"
                                                                                                    "dont waste my time"
                                                                                            "id like to acess the stables of edoras and the golden hall"
                                                                       at this point 2 things could happen. either you could get the ol your not good enough to have rohirric horse lords, or you could get the old "you have earned it choose wisely" at this point you could choose from the horse lords to ride into baddle shadowfax namely but he would have to be like speed 22 manuvre 18 charge 34 armor 25 and he would have to be like 500influence
                                   

It may be because I'm drunk, but I don't get it...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 01, 2007, 07:12:49 PM
You could get a méara, but the hell if one can get Shadowfax. That's like getting Andúril from the Rangers.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Templarion on September 02, 2007, 07:36:09 AM
Somebody here said that orcs aren't skilled but overhelms in numbers. The problem is that there is a "leadership" ability and you just can't get enough orcs in your army to beat enemies with numbers. After some training (which you probably do in Blood Pit and escorting other groups because you can't fight in the map) you can get maybe 30 orcs but that still ain't enough because at this point Great War has begun and enemies move in groups of 30-100. And if you put all your skill points in Charisma you aren't yourself very good fighter.

On the other hand, even my "warg riders" don't beat "veteran rohan footmen" so there gotta be something wrong. In real combat wargs would attack the horses and enemies (tear their throats and scratch their eyes) themselves so this should be seen somehow in the mod, too. I know that this can't be done (or can it?) but that's why orcs armour and attacking values should be better.

By the way, why are all rohan riders elites or even better (like captains, brego guards or such). Why all the bad guys are just "snagas". Even rohan footmen are "veterans".

Sometimes I see Rohan militia but that is like once in 2 hours of playing. And even rohan youths beat the hell out of my orcs. I can't even imagine how easy the game is when playing on the good side. You and your companions can kill everything so easily.

I'm sorry to say this, but after thinking this side of the mod it is really pissing me off.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 02, 2007, 08:18:39 AM
yes, you can't imagine. Play the other side and you'll the other side sucks just as much..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: LordTsunami on September 03, 2007, 09:02:41 AM
I was just thinking, that since such a great job has been done on the Rohan Long-hafted axe, can you maybe change Brytta's blade to Brytta's Axe? If you wanted a sword, you can always get the sword of westernesse.I think theaxe would do probably 38 or 39 cut, and be maybe just a little longer and faster than the normal one.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 03, 2007, 12:02:02 PM
some from me:

- athelas could be made another reward item you'd get from the elves, somehow speeding up the healing of yours and your troops.
- elves should have a trait for healing from the start, having elves in your party should raise your heeling speed.
- elven heads should be made. To look...elven. Those MaB vanilla human ones are ugly as fu*k and it quite can't be fixed by a texture..I'm not saying I'll do it, but it can be done, even though it's shitload of work :( I can draw pictures though, how the elves should look.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DaBlade on September 03, 2007, 05:32:45 PM
- elven heads should be made. To look...elven. Those MaB vanilla human ones are ugly as fu*k and it quite can't be fixed by a texture..I'm not saying I'll do it, but it can be done, even though it's shitload of work :( I can draw pictures though, how the elves should look.

Check the concept art topic ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on September 03, 2007, 10:18:53 PM
Templarion: If you think the evil factions suck, then you're wrong  ??? No offense, but you yourself might suck, but Mordor can hold it's own in combat even if you're playing as the good side. For example, a Lesser Host of Mordor is able to pound a Greater Host of Gondor at times, usually during the players absence. Heck, two patrols can kick Gondor Great Host ass. Isengard Orcs arn't bad either, I have to run halfway across Gondor just to get to Rohan to prevent their faction from being wiped out, and usually get my whole party wiped in the process. You can also follow one of your allied parties around for a while, and when they find something, run ahead and keep talking to them then leaving so that your allies catch up and join the fight. If you feel that you're orcs arn't good enough soldiers, go pick on some golbins or tribal orcs. You could even eat peasants until your orcs can stand toe-to-toe with your enemies without your help. If that doesn't work, just concentrate on reinforcing your allies. Might not be as fun, but it further increases your chances in winning the game. If you still find it too difficult, find the old man at the brigand fort in the first day and lower the Good Side troop skill until they can't even fight peasant women.

some from me:

- athelas could be made another reward item you'd get from the elves, somehow speeding up the healing of yours and your troops.
- elves should have a trait for healing from the start, having elves in your party should raise your heeling speed.

Athelas would be nice, you could make it into a consumable item. If you equip it, you have a temporary boost in medical skills, and when you finish 'consuming' it, you lose the trait.
Orcs could have something like...if you eat elven units, you heal faster....? (I don't know how elven meat tastes ???)

And what do you mean by elves should start with a healing trait? As in the player gets a free trait or elven units have the ability to heal. If you plan on adding the healing trait, I suggest it be accessable to humans via quest, like transport Athelas leaves to woodelf camp? =/
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 03, 2007, 10:39:53 PM
"Athelas" was a weed.  The ability to use simple materials and common plants for medical procedures is what the healing skills represent.

Although it does seem logical that the Elves should have more of these skills than everybody else.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 04, 2007, 12:09:48 AM
Orcs could get the orc medicine they used to heal Merry and Pippin..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 04, 2007, 12:20:24 AM
Was hardly healing, it was an energy drink. Maybe a temporary bonus to the pathfinding skill?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Scrat on September 04, 2007, 12:21:52 AM
Will TLD Source be released in the future? (in my case I would use it for personel use only)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Stryder on September 04, 2007, 03:24:29 AM
What about creating a Dol Amroth armory, where you can receive, for example, special Dol Amroth warhorses or mithril armors with the Swan insignia on them?  ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 04, 2007, 04:13:28 AM
well...yeah, but I think that should come with the overall upgrade of the involvement of the Gondorian fiefdoms and rohan regions..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 04, 2007, 04:47:37 AM
Will TLD Source be released in the future? (in my case I would use it for personel use only)

Sorry, we have no plans of making TLD compatible with the Source Engine :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Scrat on September 04, 2007, 07:42:09 AM
Will TLD Source be released in the future? (in my case I would use it for personel use only)

Sorry, we have no plans of making TLD compatible with the Source Engine :lol:

source -> python files

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on September 04, 2007, 07:50:33 AM
When Im done with the project (as in I wont be back), Ill release everything so anyone can make and release any version of TLD they like.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on September 04, 2007, 07:41:47 PM
When Im done with the project (as in I wont be back), Ill release everything so anyone can make and release any version of TLD they like.

What?!  :shock: Was it something we said?  :shock: Did we do something wrong? :shock:
Or, logically, real life calls  ???
Well, I do hope you come back sometime  :(
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 04, 2007, 08:32:32 PM
When Im done with the project (as in I wont be back), Ill release everything so anyone can make and release any version of TLD they like.

What?!  :shock: Was it something we said?  :shock: Did we do something wrong? :shock:
Or, logically, real life calls  ???
Well, I do hope you come back sometime  :(

No, no, no ... AW has repeatedly said that, if such a time comes that he is no longer able or willing to continue TLD, the source code will be made public.  Until then, the source is not even being distributed among those who need it for various projects.  (My RCM version project was hot-wired for testing, because AW didn't want the code out, and only sent me the items file.)  That is how AW keeps a handle on things.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on September 04, 2007, 10:56:57 PM
Lol, okay  :-[
Anyway, I have a suggestion....which would probably be more of a question
Whenever I fight with a larger battlesize, generally around...80, lets say, and I call my infantry into formation. Apparantly, the formations have a limited number on how many troops it contains, probably about 40, and the rest of the troops charge on ahead, obviously to their deaths. Now, I'm one of those people who leak out all the resources I have available just for the sake of a couple of lives, even if it's only virtually. Is there a way to increase the troop limit of formations so I don't throw a strategy so I can a few men? Or maybe you guys can make another formation box if the limit is reached so we can hold our positions Rome TW style?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 05, 2007, 04:15:51 AM
I'm curious about something you said.  I'm only about to raise the maximum battle size of 40 (ideally 20 v 20).  How do you increase this amount?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 05, 2007, 04:20:37 AM
One more point.  It might prove a little better if AW were to provide the source code for his mod to only those involved with the development of the mod.  If not, I could already see many people coming up with super-strong factions (cheating), etc. and posting it thereby contaminating everyone else's version (everyone would download the new versions).  I'm completely for a few people keeping handle on things and updating the mod vs. everyone in the world.  That would go back to my "board" idea where a few people are in charge of maintaining via a private thread (or e-mail) the future version of TLD.

Good luck AW.  You getting married? Graduating?  Whatever it is, thanks for starting this mod, it's the best (just checked yesterday and it has over 100,000 downloads).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 06, 2007, 06:55:13 AM
One major thing I would really like to see in the game, would be that after you beat an opponent, those soldiers that you decide not to "impress" within your military, i.e. when you decide not to force them into your military, then become roaming troops.  The rationale is that sometimes I will meet a group (usually patrol) that beats my faction many times to increase their prisoner size quite a lot.  Once I even saw a brigand party with more prisoners than it had troops (something like 40+67).  Anyway, whenever my slots are full, I would prefer that the rest of the troops are set free to roam around or then become recruitable in the taverns.

Something to think about...for anyone who will take over modding.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 06, 2007, 06:59:48 AM
I'm curious about something you said.  I'm only about to raise the maximum battle size of 40 (ideally 20 v 20).  How do you increase this amount?

They're using the infamous "battlesizer" ... I don't use it, because one, larger battles create more lag on the computer, and two, they often cause troops to spawn off the map or some such nonsense.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 06, 2007, 07:14:47 AM
but on the other hand, large battles are fun and you can simply overcome the off map spawning by retreating from the fight and finishing the remaining troops in another following round of the battle..
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: aquiefrog on September 06, 2007, 06:26:01 PM
I set my battle size to 80 (it's the most my PC can handle without too much problems).  The chances of the enemy of spawning off the map are minimal.  However, when it does happen, I retreat and kill the guy in the next battle.  However, when I retreat, I don't earn influence from killing all those other guys in the previous battle, do I?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Templarion on September 08, 2007, 12:01:45 PM
The point was that I am the only one able to beat enemy. Only help that my allies offer are distraction of my enemies. They just get killed every time. There is nothing to argue. It is just the truth. And if you have read my previous posts you know what I mean. I am not fightning against overhelming enemies but enemies of my 'level'.

I am very able to handle myself against 50 rohans but my allies are not. I don't know about Gondors or such because I have fought only against Rohan.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 08, 2007, 12:44:14 PM
Orcs are supposed to die in heaps. Way of the Book, baby.

A request for the team:

I'd like to see more neutral armour. Well, maybe not completely neutral, but more discrete. I made a new character who was supposed to be a wandering type of fellow, with a light shield, a simple sword and some ranging clothes, without a helmet, since he's not a soldier. I could barely find any armour that wasn't screaming "I'M A F***ING GONDORIAN, BITCHES, EAT STEEL AND DIE" or something of the likes. Something á la Boromir, Gimli and Aragorn's outfits, which, although they might be subtly emblazoned, the heraldry wasn't as protruding as the other armour types.

Maybe some more neutral light/medium armour types could be sold at the brigand fortress?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 08, 2007, 01:00:52 PM
good idea me says.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 08, 2007, 01:23:40 PM
Most people probably want to play a great general with a huge army and a talking, magic, vorpal two-hander and a tattoo saying "I <3 mom" spread across the Orthanc-sized upper arm.

But a wandering type of loner would suit a small niche, and me, of course. The dream set of armour would be something like [img=http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/forcemonkeys/art/boromir.jpg]http://Boromir's armour[/img] with Maximus' fur cape (http://www.dreamworksfansite.com/gladiator/storyline/gladiator119a.jpg). But we could need some more unadorned armours beyond just my ranger fetish. The furry ranger armour you drew, Merl, would be ideal. Is that in the game?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 08, 2007, 01:48:54 PM
no furry rangers as far as I know..:( sorry.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 08, 2007, 03:11:58 PM
Here's what daddy likes. Merl's Dúnedain at War:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Aryndil/Dunedain_at_War_concept_by_Merlkir.jpg)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on September 09, 2007, 11:56:22 AM
Sexy!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on September 09, 2007, 01:41:48 PM
you are one fuckt up dude to think that's sexy...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on September 09, 2007, 02:33:03 PM
Hey man, take a couple bucks and go buy yourself a sense of humor. It means I like the armor.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 10, 2007, 04:41:28 AM
It makes my nethers twitch.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lorodim on September 10, 2007, 09:19:34 AM
Hey man, take a couple bucks and go buy yourself a sense of humor. It means I like the armor.

firstly you should have to say something FUNNY to put my sense of humor to work
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Boiled Ice on September 11, 2007, 12:53:54 AM
Hey man, take a couple bucks and go buy yourself a sense of humor. It means I like the armor.

firstly you should have to say something FUNNY to put my sense of humor to work

BOOBS

I bet your laughing now.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 11, 2007, 01:44:51 AM
I'm laughing now.    :D

That's also because I have a cheap sense of humor.    ;)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 11, 2007, 02:52:20 AM
 >:D THIS IS SPAMMA!!!!   >:D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 11, 2007, 04:15:19 AM
As long as it's spam that makes everybody feel better, who cares?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 11, 2007, 04:31:16 AM
Here is something I've always wanted, but think it's beyond AW's control.  I really enjoy the fact that TLD (specifically as opposed to Mount and Blade) is a single player game.  There is so much control that I have vs. a massive online game.  

Yet, many times I wish that I could (or a friend) create a new game to which I could connect to remotely (like AOE2 or Warcraft III is).  I don't want an entire online world, such as WoW, or I would purchase the game and miss out on TLD, which would be impossible.  

I guess my question is, would there be a way to create a function to where I could create a game and have a friend (or 2) connect to me and we would play together on my computer with separate heroes (i.e. I host a game)?  I suppose that would be more on the original game development's side AND it's probably impossible considering that M&Bs creator already stated that he won't make it either networkable or onlineish.  Although I'm really hoping for the network games vs. online.

FS
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 11, 2007, 05:08:24 AM
Here is something I've always wanted, but think it's beyond AW's control.  I really enjoy the fact that TLD (specifically as opposed to Mount and Blade) is a single player game.  There is so much control that I have vs. a massive online game. 

Yet, many times I wish that I could (or a friend) create a new game to which I could connect to remotely (like AOE2 or Warcraft III is).  I don't want an entire online world, such as WoW, or I would purchase the game and miss out on TLD, which would be impossible. 

I guess my question is, would there be a way to create a function to where I could create a game and have a friend (or 2) connect to me and we would play together on my computer with separate heroes (i.e. I host a game)?  I suppose that would be more on the original game development's side AND it's probably impossible considering that M&Bs creator already stated that he won't make it either networkable or onlineish.  Although I'm really hoping for the network games vs. online.

FS

There was a whole thread on this under "general discussion" ... Even just one other person co-op combat, Fisheye was pretty sure that lag on the internet would limit it to actually being hard-wired to the other computer.  M&B just runs too much code too fast to survive any of the combat being done over long-distance connections.  That's even assuming somebody would bother to program all of that, which I doubt they will.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 11, 2007, 05:09:41 AM
Here is something I've always wanted, but think it's beyond AW's control.  I really enjoy the fact that TLD (specifically as opposed to Mount and Blade) is a single player game.  There is so much control that I have vs. a massive online game. 

Yet, many times I wish that I could (or a friend) create a new game to which I could connect to remotely (like AOE2 or Warcraft III is).  I don't want an entire online world, such as WoW, or I would purchase the game and miss out on TLD, which would be impossible. 

I guess my question is, would there be a way to create a function to where I could create a game and have a friend (or 2) connect to me and we would play together on my computer with separate heroes (i.e. I host a game)?  I suppose that would be more on the original game development's side AND it's probably impossible considering that M&Bs creator already stated that he won't make it either networkable or onlineish.  Although I'm really hoping for the network games vs. online.

FS

there were fan attempts on multiplayer and all of them failed miserably. It's not expected in MaB I at all.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 11, 2007, 05:47:48 AM
Thanks for the info. 

I really wish I was a programmer.  Unfortunately there isn't enough time in the day to learn that with my other jobs.

All we can do now is hope that someone will figure it out, although as both you and Ron stated its highly unlikely.

Thanks,

FS
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on September 11, 2007, 08:54:37 PM
Should we add respawnable 'villages and campsites' to the game?
Say, if you have a patrol which is under half strength. I would rather that they make camp and rest a little, maybe recieve reinforcements from thin air. Also, you can attack enemy camps, like a hapless caravan decides that their horses are too tired and need a break. You can purchase supplies from there if they're friendly.

If we can't have siege warfare, I want campsite ambushes =3
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Templarion on September 11, 2007, 11:45:25 PM
If orcs are supposed to die in great numbers why can't I lead 100 orcs army? Damn it. Sometimes you can implement things from books to games but sometimes that doesn't just work. And did you notice that in the Book the orc slayers are all the time heroes? Player character can be heroes but not every normal rider of Rohan. By the way, nobody ever answered to my question about "elite Rohan riders". Why are there always "elite" or "veteran" Rohan riders? Shouldn't them be much more rare than normal ones?

At the moment there are two difficulties in this mod:
1) Good (easy)
2) Evil (hard)

And now I know that playing on Good side is much easier because I managed to get good-side troops on my army by releasing prisoners from another party. I don't have much of them but the game was a hell lot of easier after getting some knights of Gondor in my army.Thinking about having only them in my ranks would really make the game easier.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 12, 2007, 12:04:42 AM
The balance, in case anybody missed this point - one on one, the free peoples almost always beat their number in orcs.  The various youths being the exception, as they are seldom a match for the snaga.  However, Mordor and its allies just have a LOT more troops ... Mordor will pretty much invariably win if the player does nothing. 

Which one is harder ... well, that sort of depends on how you play.  If you play the orcs, it's probably a good idea to join battles in progress, and so use your numeric advantage.

But I do agree that both Rohan and Gondor troops tend to be far more experienced than the averages should dictate.  There seem to be a lot of "elite" and "master" whatever, and not much in the line of regulars.  I mean, the caravans?  Why are the caravan guards some kind of elite troops?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 12, 2007, 01:34:11 AM
First of all, thanks AW for posting the new update!!!

Ok, here are 3 things I noticed today that I would like to see fixed:

1.  In the party screen, many times its really hard to see if a unit can be upgraded.  That's mainly due to the fact that the plus sign goes off of its insignia because the name is too long.  That causes you to have units that are upgradeable (and can sometimes make the difference in a battle) to not upgrade them.  Instead of placing a plus beside their names, could the color of the bar be changed so that its a lot more distingishable?

2.  I already made this suggestion, but haven't had much commentary on it.  Sometimes I will attack an enemy that has 50 or 60 prisoners.  Sometimes I only have room for 10 troops.  Is there a way that the rest of the prisoners that are set free go to the nearest town to be recruitable or become a "wandering party?"

3.  To piggy on the last suggestion, it would be nice to see if the great hosts or lesser hosts would take a break.  Sometimes they have half their troops that are wounded/knocked out and as a result lose a battle.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 12, 2007, 02:09:04 AM
First of all, thanks AW for posting the new update!!!

Ok, here are 3 things I noticed today that I would like to see fixed:

1.  In the party screen, many times its really hard to see if a unit can be upgraded.  That's mainly due to the fact that the plus sign goes off of its insignia because the name is too long.  That causes you to have units that are upgradeable (and can sometimes make the difference in a battle) to not upgrade them.  Instead of placing a plus beside their names, could the color of the bar be changed so that its a lot more distingishable?

2.  I already made this suggestion, but haven't had much commentary on it.  Sometimes I will attack an enemy that has 50 or 60 prisoners.  Sometimes I only have room for 10 troops.  Is there a way that the rest of the prisoners that are set free go to the nearest town to be recruitable or become a "wandering party?"

3.  To piggy on the last suggestion, it would be nice to see if the great hosts or lesser hosts would take a break.  Sometimes they have half their troops that are wounded/knocked out and as a result lose a battle.

1. not possible I think. Native MaB issue.
2. there have been thoughts about something lik e that. I would choose for a part of them joining hosts of their faction..
3. don't know if it's possible, but yes, it would be nice if badly hurt hosts retreated to their cities and refilled.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Templarion on September 12, 2007, 06:19:15 AM
The balance, in case anybody missed this point - one on one, the free peoples almost always beat their number in orcs.  The various youths being the exception, as they are seldom a match for the snaga.  However, Mordor and its allies just have a LOT more troops ... Mordor will pretty much invariably win if the player does nothing. 

Which one is harder ... well, that sort of depends on how you play.  If you play the orcs, it's probably a good idea to join battles in progress, and so use your numeric advantage.

But I do agree that both Rohan and Gondor troops tend to be far more experienced than the averages should dictate.  There seem to be a lot of "elite" and "master" whatever, and not much in the line of regulars.  I mean, the caravans?  Why are the caravan guards some kind of elite troops?

At last, someone agrees with me even with something.

I just tried "sneak and free prisoners" -thingie. I luv sneaking games (like Thief 1,2,3) so I first thought this would be awesome. But no...

1) Why are there even other opinions than getting inside the castle? I mean, everytime enemy spots me before I am inside I just load the game. On the other hand, if you are not using "save/load"-system you can always just leave and wait for another day. Basicly, it is just waste of player's time and it makes me angry. Sounds realistic but doesn't work this way in this game. Remove these alternative results, please.

2) When 'sneaking' (if you can use that word) you try to avoid the guards but how can you avoid them when the guards are stuck inside fireplaces, corners and everything else. When they spot me they don't actually attack me but hit me while walking close and continue their walk. Really, if you can't make it working. Don't make it at all.

3) How am I supposed to kill them quickly? They manage to raise the alarm everytime I try to kill them quickly. How do they do that? They yell and everyone in the castle can hear that yell. That's just stupid. By the way, why are guards carrying a shield or why are their weapons unsheated? Shields are kind of heavy, u know. Think about it, if you are a guard and keep guard for 12 hours in a day you will not be carrying a shield or anything else too heavy, if it is not absolutely necessary. Guarding is a boring stuff and you want to do it the easiest way you can.

4) Freeing prisoners should be fun but - no. It is just pain in the ass, so in the future I will just load the game rather than go to free prisoners. This should not be supposed to be this way. Remove this feature if you can't make it work.

Just my opinion...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 12, 2007, 06:22:47 AM
and I tell you to shove that opinion of yours up your arse...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ancientwanker on September 12, 2007, 06:25:41 AM
heh, well, you can turn off the capture in this one iirc. So you wont have to do that type of thing if you dont want to.  The rescue certainly has its wonky points, like everything else. But some people seem to like it, some people seem to hate it. Giving options is the way to go imo.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 12, 2007, 06:31:42 AM
heh, well, you can turn off the capture in this one iirc. So you wont have to do that type of thing if you dont want to.  The rescue certainly has its wonky points, like everything else. But some people seem to like it, some people seem to hate it. Giving options is the way to go imo.

exactly!
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 12, 2007, 09:00:26 AM
Actually, AW, this horse's arse is the only person so far to hate it that I know of.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 12, 2007, 09:02:00 AM
Actually, AW, this horse's arse is the only person so far to hate it that I know of.

....and bryce.. :D
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 12, 2007, 09:08:55 AM
And Bryce, of course, but this horse's arse is the only horse's arse to hate it. Calling Bryce a horse's arse would be a tremendous insult to horse's arses :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Lanky on September 12, 2007, 01:25:14 PM
An this horse arse hates it for reasons regarding the limits of the engine and some idea that guards are unable to carry things when they walk around what they are guarding. And because he is a horses arse...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on September 12, 2007, 04:45:22 PM
Composite troops for better hordes

Would it be possible to have a troop named, like, "pair of ork snagas" which, when a battle starts, would result in two snaga spawning in the battlefield?

Snagas could even be a separate troop tree, which upgrades by increasing their number rather than their stats/equipment. Maybe even weaker orks could increase both in stats (a little) and in number (a little), e.g. reaching the level of "pairs" at top levels.

That way, a ork commander player can be really strong in number, when not in troop quality.
Hordes of weak, poorly trained and worse equipped, disposable troops is the Mordor way, right?

Issue: realism. Enlisting more rabble on the spot is just as realistic as better equipment growing on your troops (as an effect for levelling-up). In both cases, this must be considered due to un-modeled elements.

Minor issue: when would they die? Statistically, it would be enough that, when, say, a "half-a-dozen snagas" (top level snaga?) enters a battle, 1 snaga spawns as the original one, other 5 are "dummies". If the original dies, the "troop" is dead (dummies fate is ignored). Crude, but it would do, on average (luck is a factor here).

Average orcs, Huruks, Huruk-hai, warg riders, cave trolls, etc would be just normal troops of course.

I wonder if that is even possible to do.


PS: if we add a little randomness in number of actual snagas appearing on the battle-field, maybe we would get this extra effect: "While a Rohan commander knows the name and face (and father's name, marriage status, character etc) of each soldier under his command, a Ork horde leader is never even sure of the actual number of the rabble it is leading."
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: bryce on September 12, 2007, 04:48:24 PM
Composite troops for better hordes

Would it be possible to have a troop named, like, "pair of ork snagas" which, when a battle starts, would result in two snaga spawning in the battlefield?

Snagas could even be a separate troop tree, which upgrades by increasing their number rather than their stats/equipment. Maybe even weaker orks could increase both in stats (a little) and in number (a little), e.g. reaching the level of "pairs" at top levels.

That way, a ork commander player can be really strong in number, when not in troop quality.
Hordes of weak, poorly trained and worse equipped, disposable troops is the Mordor way, right?

Issue: realism. Enlisting more rabble on the spot is just as realistic as better equipment growing on your troops (as an effect for levelling-up). In both cases, this must be considered due to un-modeled elements.

Minor issue: when would they die? Statistically, it would be enough that, when, say, a "half-a-dozen snagas" (top level snaga?) enters a battle, 1 snaga spawns as the original one, other 5 are "dummies". If the original dies, the "troop" is dead (dummies fate is ignored). Crude, but it would do, on average (luck is a factor here).

Average orcs, Huruks, Huruk-hai, warg riders, cave trolls, etc would be just normal troops of course.

I wonder if that is even possible to do.


PS: if we add a little randomness in number of actual snagas appearing on the battle-field, maybe we would get this extra effect: "While a Rohan commander knows the name and face (and father's name, marriage status, character etc) of each soldier under his command, a Ork horde leader is never even sure of the actual number of the rabble it is leading."

It's possible, but a hassle. I doubt anything that code heavy would be done unless for a great purpose.

Numbers count for a ton in this game due to stunlock, so if you doubled the size it would be too much.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on September 12, 2007, 05:44:52 PM
Templarion: Sneaking into a capital city in TLD is just like sneaking into a museum in RL. You'll probably get caught, except in TLD, you have a weapon, so use it. Don't complain because you think sneaking into peoples houses is like stealing a marshmellow from Cosco.

mtarini: I think that would be a great idea, seeing as orc players generally whine about in-battle game balance. Although, this doesn't affect the battles that players arn't participating in, right?

bryce: It's possible that these troops can only be gained via influence, so the players wouldn't have too many of them. Therefore, that stunlock stuff wouldn't be too much of an advantage. For non-player parties, it would make it a lot more realistic, seeing as the weakened patrol you were chasing for 10 minutes come back at you with twice the number of troops you thought they had  ;)

orcish ambuses FTW  :green:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Oubliette on September 12, 2007, 08:10:22 PM
Rather than having snagas come in twos, what about giving players of the evil faction access to some arbitrary, like a whip, item which reinforces their leadership 'qualities'? Make it available at a certain rank and possibly have an second upgraded version for a higher rank, adding +1 and +2 to leadership respectively (or perhaps a charisma-bonus alternatively). This would simply make it easier to get a larger force for those on the evil side, while being relatively hassle free.

I guess you could just make them 'epic items' which, like Lembas, are not so epic but merely exclusive to that side. Their effects would be identical to the Gondorian horn reward (I forget it's name) but would cost less influence since it's less of a 'bonus' to be able to get +14 top-tier orcs than it is to get +14 top-tier Gondorians.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 12, 2007, 08:16:51 PM
Add missions against the minor factions, especially dunlanders.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 13, 2007, 01:35:52 AM
I've been wanting to see those anti-minor faction missions for a very long time.

FS
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 13, 2007, 02:01:28 AM
adSthealthMissions: I've rescued Ufthak from Minas Tirith yesterday and it was on the first try. And I had two orc trackers with me. What I love is the fact that (maybe it's only when the guards are lax, which they were) the guards were mostly in clothes with partial gear on them, only few were fully dressed in armor. One guy was even naked! :D he ran outta his bed and got chopped..

adHordes: just increase the number of troops an orc gets when adding points to his leadership. It's possible, in Holy War you can command a thousand heads army with 3 or 4 leadership...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 13, 2007, 02:45:09 AM
Add missions against the minor factions, especially dunlanders.

And missions by the minor factions.  Mordor only has like four places where you can get a mission, and four for Isengard too, I think (while Rohan has a bunch) - let the minor factions hand out missions too.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 13, 2007, 02:46:46 AM
I've suggested some minor faction missions before..like harad and corsair assassinations and such..(dunnish fighting over the leadership of clans, easterlings possibly too.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 13, 2007, 03:01:01 AM
I've suggested some minor faction missions before..like harad and corsair assassinations and such..(dunnish fighting over the leadership of clans, easterlings possibly too.)

Even if they're just more "deliver a message" and "kill enemy scouts", more places to get missions would reduce the pain of getting a bad one (like "capture a brigand leader" on day one).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 13, 2007, 04:05:13 AM
We need minor faction leaders, too.

The most fun I have is when I'm asked to fell an enemy hero. I hire a full party of snagas, and then launch myself with a spear at the hero. After three or four tries, I get the bastard, and subsequently my money :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 13, 2007, 04:37:54 AM
I hate capture the "leader" type of assignments in the beginning, especially when I play as a Gondor infantryman.  Then it's almost impossible to knock someone out.

FS

P.S. It's a great mission though, because it adds variety.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 13, 2007, 04:47:45 AM
Mesoamerica took care of that by making all mission-capture targets (the generals) into hero units.  That way they would always survive the battle, and could be captured.  Of course, this was countered by making them only leading forces large enough to be a problem.

The big problem on captures is preventing your troops from killing the target.  Maybe we could find a script command that would cause them to avoid using deadly weapons on "valuable" targets - officers, heroes and such, unless they were attacked first.  (For the player party only ... having the enemy try to avoid killing your hero characters would never do.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: FleshyStarfish on September 13, 2007, 05:24:21 AM
I tried countering this by giving certain heroes (the ones I don't care about) only blunt weapons.  Then, I would have them follow me and help me take out the enemy leader.  So far so good, however I agree that there should be a script, although I do enjoy battling directly with the leaders.

FS
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on September 13, 2007, 08:25:04 AM
Composite troops for better hordestual number of the rabble it is leading."

It's possible, but a hassle. I doubt anything that code heavy would be done.

Too bad. :( It would be a way to give a different taste to the gameplay mechanics of the two sides.


Numbers count for a ton in this game due to stunlock, so if you doubled the size it would be too much.

Right, but still, my few orks work wonders against any number of peasants.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on September 13, 2007, 09:17:55 AM

As a way to get more MODding power, what if the side (Evil or Good) was chosen from within a different application, like the BattleSize changer does? This application, when run before running the game, would change certain files of the MOD according to the side chosen.

Don't get me wrong: I agree that it is way more elegant to choose that from within the game itself, but doing it outside can potentially trigger extra flexibility: more things would then be moddable, others can be modded more straightforwardly. Am I wrong?

Technically, internally, it would be like having two MODs, one TLD for FreePeople and one TLD for Enemy.
Examples: the number of extra troop you can get for "leadership point" can now be modded, but then is a constant in the game. With this approach, it could easily be set higher for the ork side. Same goes for the name of the currency used in the game. Or, say, the map for the evil side could allow to go though Morannon. City names, troop names, etc could change according to side. It would be maybe easier (and with a leaner code) to adapt dialogs to who you are. Etc.

I am not saying this is necessary a good idea at the current stage of development of TLD, but maybe it is useful to keep this in mind as a possible trick, for now or to the future. Hum, I bet AW considered this already.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Templarion on September 13, 2007, 09:23:34 AM
Composite troops for better hordes

Would it be possible to have a troop named, like, "pair of ork snagas" which, when a battle starts, would result in two snaga spawning in the battlefield?

Snagas could even be a separate troop tree, which upgrades by increasing their number rather than their stats/equipment. Maybe even weaker orks could increase both in stats (a little) and in number (a little), e.g. reaching the level of "pairs" at top levels.

That way, a ork commander player can be really strong in number, when not in troop quality.
Hordes of weak, poorly trained and worse equipped, disposable troops is the Mordor way, right?

Issue: realism. Enlisting more rabble on the spot is just as realistic as better equipment growing on your troops (as an effect for levelling-up). In both cases, this must be considered due to un-modeled elements.

Minor issue: when would they die? Statistically, it would be enough that, when, say, a "half-a-dozen snagas" (top level snaga?) enters a battle, 1 snaga spawns as the original one, other 5 are "dummies". If the original dies, the "troop" is dead (dummies fate is ignored). Crude, but it would do, on average (luck is a factor here).

Average orcs, Huruks, Huruk-hai, warg riders, cave trolls, etc would be just normal troops of course.

I wonder if that is even possible to do.


PS: if we add a little randomness in number of actual snagas appearing on the battle-field, maybe we would get this extra effect: "While a Rohan commander knows the name and face (and father's name, marriage status, character etc) of each soldier under his command, a Ork horde leader is never even sure of the actual number of the rabble it is leading."
5

I love the idea of two snagas in one because then it would really give a possibility to a player to overhelm with numbers. Now it is not possible.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 13, 2007, 09:40:33 AM
The logical way to tweak troop numbers without changing too much - set the number of troops per leadership point up considerably (it's 5 now, say 10 at least, or more).  Then, limit the number of troops you can find in taverns on the good side, but keep the number high for the orcs.

This way, you could still build a large group with the free peoples, but you would have to be very careful and hunt around a lot for your troops, rescue prisoners and whatever.  In contrast, the orcs would always have a horde of orcs, and if they lose a horde of orcs, they can get another horde of orcs.  Orcs would be like ammunition ... you just go get more before the next fight.

I think I mentioned in another thread, it might be interesting to go to MUCH larger unit sizes, like HW does (500 troops per point of leadership, AI armies to match).  It would change the game ... a lot.  I'm not sure if it would be a good change or not... it's the sort of thing that would take a lot of testing to see if it's playable.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Templarion on September 13, 2007, 09:46:45 AM
Templarion: Sneaking into a capital city in TLD is just like sneaking into a museum in RL. You'll probably get caught, except in TLD, you have a weapon, so use it. Don't complain because you think sneaking into peoples houses is like stealing a marshmellow from Cosco.

In real life I would probably walk inside this museum with a normal fine clothes, pick up anything I want and just run away. That would probably work with an escape car.

Sneaking means that I would actually sneak (not walk or run) in shadows and cut people throats or hit them unconsciouss when they get too close of my hide. At the moment sneaking doesn't work in this mod. Maybe it is because this game is not created for sneaking mini-games. At the moment, it is more like an assault of single person (or with companions). I am sorry to say this but "Sneaking inside and freeing my prisoned companions" is just like a big farce.

Has anyone here even played Splinter Cell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinter_Cell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinter_Cell)) or Thief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief_(computer_game) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief_(computer_game))) -games? These are a legendary couple of games of stealth and cunning!

And by the way, why do they even take my companions as prisoners? A couple of low level junkies who have been paid to look after my back in the combat. Usually prisoners are officers or other important persons.

PS. I really like this mod and when I play M&B I play this mod. Thank you for this mod and everything. I am just trying to give some constructive criticism.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 13, 2007, 11:40:21 AM
M&M? :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: ferdoos on September 13, 2007, 12:30:01 PM
i downloaded TLD and installed it but it is still the original mount and blade what should I do because i want to play TLD if you know what is wrong my nickname here is feroos
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Merlkir on September 13, 2007, 01:29:44 PM
The logical way to tweak troop numbers without changing too much - set the number of troops per leadership point up considerably (it's 5 now, say 10 at least, or more).  Then, limit the number of troops you can find in taverns on the good side, but keep the number high for the orcs.

This way, you could still build a large group with the free peoples, but you would have to be very careful and hunt around a lot for your troops, rescue prisoners and whatever.  In contrast, the orcs would always have a horde of orcs, and if they lose a horde of orcs, they can get another horde of orcs.  Orcs would be like ammunition ... you just go get more before the next fight.

I think I mentioned in another thread, it might be interesting to go to MUCH larger unit sizes, like HW does (500 troops per point of leadership, AI armies to match).  It would change the game ... a lot.  I'm not sure if it would be a good change or not... it's the sort of thing that would take a lot of testing to see if it's playable.


and it would be probably the easiest way to do this.

Sneaking means that I would actually sneak (not walk or run) in shadows and cut people throats or hit them unconsciouss when they get too close of my hide. At the moment sneaking doesn't work in this mod. Maybe it is because this game is not created for sneaking mini-games. At the moment, it is more like an assault of single person (or with companions). I am sorry to say this but "Sneaking inside and freeing my prisoned companions" is just like a big farce.

Has anyone here even played Splinter Cell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinter_Cell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinter_Cell)) or Thief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief_(computer_game) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief_(computer_game))) -games? These are a legendary couple of games of stealth and cunning!

And by the way, why do they even take my companions as prisoners? A couple of low level junkies who have been paid to look after my back in the combat. Usually prisoners are officers or other important persons.

PS. I really like this mod and when I play M&M I play this mod. Thank you for this mod and everything. I am just trying to give some constructive criticism.

well, your constructive criticism doesn't help much since you don't seem to know much about MaB modding and it's limitations. Since we CAN'T change animations and shit, the thing you suggest is impossible. I didn't think even the minigame we have to be possible, frankly, it's a miracle imho.
If you don't like it being called stealth missions, don't do them! easy as a cake.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on September 13, 2007, 04:39:12 PM
Yes. I like the orcs-as-bullet concept. Forget snagas pairs/half-a-dozens.

The bullet concept could be extended further. For example, maybe add a few ways to refill "bullets" even when you are far from home. For example, assuming every hill and every shadow is infested with orcs, you orc leader could send someone to collect an extra few, from time to time. Maybe heroes can be sent. A dialog-with-hero triggered option. It should be limited in some way (like, a slowly refilling buffer of wandering orcs, when depleted the heroes gone to enlist rabble return empty handed). PS: not sure about this one. Any better idea?

Following a similar concept, in the war of the rings table-top game, the good player has all "once-dead-gone-forever" troops, while the evil player just places defeated hordes back in the box, from where they can be recollected later. Orcs as bullets indeeds.

PS: I'm very curious about how the "practial unbounded troop limit" thing would work.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DudeWheresMyTank on September 13, 2007, 05:11:43 PM
Battle for Sicily allows you to recruit troops beyond your leadership would normally allow. The downside of being over your limit is that your party becomes undisiplined and troops become unruly and will steal/murder from your own troops and your allies when you are near friendly towns.  The larger the difference between your army size and leadership max, the more often these events occur. I think this system fits TLD very well as I can imagine rowdy groups of orcs/uruks squabbling all over the countryside, getting into petty fights with each other and allies.

I'm sure BfS's creator, Nijis (recently promoted by Armagan from modder to developer!) will be able to help AW with the code to make this happen.

Perhaps for TLD, the scripts can be altered such that only evil armies can recruit over the leadership max. You can add morale penalties whenever troops steal/murder each other, and loss of time on the world map whenver these events occur as settling petty disputes disrupts troop movement.

In BfS, when your troops steal/murder allied parties, you must pay reparations to the lord of the area, or sufffer loss of renoun (repuation) with both the local lord. For TLD, I would suggest similar penalties where a lord of a city/encampment will demand money in exchange for damages caused by your troops. Failure to pay results in loss of influence. If you cause too much trouble in allied areas, perhaps a Nazgul will come and eat some of your troops.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 13, 2007, 07:34:03 PM
If you want a way to "refill" the supply of orcs, make tribal orc parties recruit-able by evil factions.  Instead of combat, get a dialog screen where, if your leadership/charisma is high enough, they will join you.  Or they might refuse.  Or they might attack.  (Need a lot more tribal orcs and goblin stragglers to make this effective.)

The party-above-practical-limit trick was tried in one version of ONR ... just every week or so, any over your limit had a chance of deserting.  Same with prisoners escaping.  As it was incredibly annoying to have your people leave, the practical effect was just making it easier to sort troops if you were rescuing prisoners or some such.  If army sizes were a LOT larger and penalties relatively low, I could see it having an impact on the game.  With small groups, players will be afraid of losing their best troops as deserters, and the total change will be minimal.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on September 14, 2007, 01:01:28 AM
OK, I've propsed this before, but with RCM it's really becoming imperative; low tier troops of the Men of The West need to have shields, even if it's just a buckler. My Gondor youth and Guardsmen are being eaten alive by orcs (also low tier, we're not talking uruks here!). Apart from game balance, it just makes sense. Many of them have swords; the cost of a buckler is insignificant in comparison and so greatly increases chances of survival, and Gondor is a rather rich country.

I would also Gondor sword infantry to carry heavy throwing spears (some of them, not all as that would force archer behaviour) to thin out those masses of orcs a little bit.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 14, 2007, 01:41:57 AM
OK, I've propsed this before, but with RCM it's really becoming imperative; low tier troops of the Men of The West need to have shields, even if it's just a buckler. My Gondor youth and Guardsmen are being eaten alive by orcs (also low tier, we're not talking uruks here!). Apart from game balance, it just makes sense. Many of them have swords; the cost of a buckler is insignificant in comparison and so greatly increases chances of survival, and Gondor is a rather rich country.

I would also Gondor sword infantry to carry heavy throwing spears (some of them, not all as that would force archer behaviour) to thin out those masses of orcs a little bit.

The low-end orcs get eaten alive too.  If the combat capabilities of low-end Gondor troops are upped, the ratio of high-end to low-end Gondor and Rohan troops need to be tweaked as well.  (Why are even the caravans guarded by elite riders?  What kind of army has 50 elite units for every one regular?)  The RCM is bringing out a lot of game balance issues that never appeared before, because before, the player could just kill everything solo.

The spears are going to create a BIG problem for the formation commands.  The game engine reads anything with a ranged weapon as "archer", not "infantry".  Had big problems with that in HW, where we wanted to give fransisca axes (Northern European throwing axes, for anybody who missed that) to the Crusader infantry, and it fragged the formations.  Everybody with a missile weapon ignored the orders and went about their way.  Advise that, although a good idea, be avoided until the game engine can be debugged of such quirks.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on September 14, 2007, 01:53:21 AM
low tier troops of the Men of The West need to have shields,

but, don't you want to leave some soft target available for a poor orc player low-level archer.

PS: I think they should be considered fresh Gondor-Rohan recruits, not "youths".
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on September 14, 2007, 01:58:26 AM
The spears are going to create a BIG problem for the formation commands.  The game engine reads anything with a ranged weapon as "archer", not "infantry".  Had big problems with that in HW, where we wanted to give fransisca axes (Northern European throwing axes, for anybody who missed that) to the Crusader infantry, and it fragged the formations.  Everybody with a missile weapon ignored the orders and went about their way.  Advise that, although a good idea, be avoided until the game engine can be debugged of such quirks.

I believe that problem only appears when you set a ranged weapon to be always present. I did try that loadout in .751 TLD and it worked OK (they behaved like infantry, not like archers). Of course, there were no formations then, maybe that is still affected even by random ranged weapons.

If the combat capabilities of low-end Gondor troops are upped, the ratio of high-end to low-end Gondor and Rohan troops need to be tweaked as well.

I'm all for that. Being a professional army, I'd guess that the army of Gondor would have 3rd tier troops (Gondor Infantry/Archer/Veteran Squire) being the most common "level" of troops. Then you'd have a much smaller proportions of fresh recruits (1st and 2nd tier) and elites (4th a 5th tier). I'd use 1st and 2nd tier troops as caravan guards (youths, guardsmen and squires), 2nd and 3rd tier troops in all-horse scouting parties (squires), 3rd tier troops in patrols and hosts and 4th and 5th tier troops only in hosts (5th maybe only in Great Hosts).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on September 14, 2007, 01:59:22 AM
low tier troops of the Men of The West need to have shields,

but, don't you want to leave some soft target available for a poor orc player low-level archer.

PS: I think they should be considered fresh Gondor-Rohan recruits, not "youths".

But the low tier orcs have shields, unless they're archers don't they?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 14, 2007, 02:14:45 AM
low tier troops of the Men of The West need to have shields,

but, don't you want to leave some soft target available for a poor orc player low-level archer.

PS: I think they should be considered fresh Gondor-Rohan recruits, not "youths".

But the low tier orcs have shields, unless they're archers don't they?

Some do ... but the orcs have fewer total upgrades, so they already start the equivalent of second-tier.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on September 14, 2007, 02:20:14 AM
But the low tier orcs have shields, unless they're archers don't they?

Some do ... but the orcs have fewer total upgrades, so they already start the equivalent of second-tier.

2nd tier Gondorians don't have shields either, unless I'm mixing them up on the battlefield.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 14, 2007, 03:06:18 AM
But the low tier orcs have shields, unless they're archers don't they?

Some do ... but the orcs have fewer total upgrades, so they already start the equivalent of second-tier.

2nd tier Gondorians don't have shields either, unless I'm mixing them up on the battlefield.

2nd tier free-peoples get horses.  That's a LOT bigger bonus than shields.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on September 14, 2007, 03:48:24 AM
Only the squires. Guardsmen don't come with horses.

And Gondor's supposed to be an infantry-based army.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Momaw on September 14, 2007, 08:31:22 AM
Stealth attacks on parties.

When you walk up to an enemy part under qualifying conditions, you are presented with the option to attack them by stealth instead of in open combat.  The qualifying conditions are that 1.) it might be night-time  2.) you must have at least 9 stealth-capable troops in your own party.

The enemy party has a readiness level, same as prisoner extraction missions. Your own Pathfinding skill and that of the troops you pick is weighed against the enemy's readiness level to determine whether you can get close to them or not.  If you are spotted before you can close on them, you're dumped into a battle with the enemy's pickets.  If you evade the pickets with a high Pathfinding and get to their troops, you're given a camp scene with "some" (higher Tactics skills = more) of the enemy's troops wandering around, without armor, and with their HP and skills heavily penalized.  They were asleep, see.  In both cases, there is a small window in which to act, and then more armed troops start spawning at a brisk pace.  You may only perform one such attack per night ("Your troops are tired!"), and enemy party readiness levels tend to be much higher after you've attacked them the first time.

The goal here is that a small player party of stealthy elite troops should be able to put a dent in the larger enemy groups without actually engaging in open combat, which wouldn't be making very good use of their skills.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 14, 2007, 08:42:15 AM
Only the squires. Guardsmen don't come with horses.

And Gondor's supposed to be an infantry-based army.

If Gondor is supposed to be an infantry-based army, something is a little off.  Most groups I have seen are heavy on horse and archers, and not much else.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on September 14, 2007, 09:32:34 AM
Only the squires. Guardsmen don't come with horses.

And Gondor's supposed to be an infantry-based army.

If Gondor is supposed to be an infantry-based army, something is a little off.  Most groups I have seen are heavy on horse and archers, and not much else.

That's really off then. Only scout parties should be looking that way.

I'll make that a suggestion  - revamp the force composition to better reflect the character of the armies in question; in the case of Gondor with a heavy infantry backbone and little cav. Pair this with moving away from high tier troops in anything but hosts, for all sides.



Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 14, 2007, 01:23:39 PM
Agreed. Gondor should be a primarily infantry army.


Also, I think Rohan (possibly Gondor, too) might be a bit OPed with RCM. I don't know, but it seems to me like my army is absolutely decimating similar numbers of Isengard troops. Granted Good troops are supposed to be better, but they also come in similar numbers.

Me + 20 of my troops + A great host of Rohan effortlessly beat a Great Host of Isengard. We took maybe 5 losses total. I didn't even do that much.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 14, 2007, 02:52:27 PM
Agreed. Gondor should be a primarily infantry army.


Also, I think Rohan (possibly Gondor, too) might be a bit OPed with RCM. I don't know, but it seems to me like my army is absolutely decimating similar numbers of Isengard troops. Granted Good troops are supposed to be better, but they also come in similar numbers.

Me + 20 of my troops + A great host of Rohan effortlessly beat a Great Host of Isengard. We took maybe 5 losses total. I didn't even do that much.

Yeah, the free peoples should have some advantage in better troops, but not massively better, and not when they come in similar numbers.  A few elites in an army are one thing, but when caravan escorts are all elite riders, there's something wrong with the scale.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 14, 2007, 04:07:08 PM
Question:

Why do shops sell "bent" jarids or "rusty" swords? Wouldn't it make more sense (and be less annoying) if shops carried neutral or positive modifiers on their items (excepting the ones you sell to them, of course)?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 14, 2007, 04:24:03 PM
Also, I noticed something. The player and his allies have a large chance to get knocked out rather than killed, even if hit by a slashing/piercing weapon, whereas enemies do not. This is an advantage for the player's faction. I think that enemies hit by slashing/piercing weapons should not always die.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: The Yogi on September 14, 2007, 04:28:35 PM
Another point about Gondorian loadouts - I noticed many Gondor infantry seem to carry a longsword/bastard sword. Since they all have shields, given the penalty for 1H use, this is a bad idea. Better let them all have vanilla 1H swords or 1H axes, if you want variation.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: CCA on September 14, 2007, 04:55:48 PM
Also, I noticed something. The player and his allies have a large chance to get knocked out rather than killed, even if hit by a slashing/piercing weapon, whereas enemies do not. This is an advantage for the player's faction. I think that enemies hit by slashing/piercing weapons should not always die.

Your character probably has surgery or something.

I think there should be some sort of effect that your surgery skill has on the enemy, maybe half your existing surgery points is used on enemy troops.

(kinda makes sense cause you're probably gonna care less about what happens to your enemy, maybe make this thing for good players only?)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 14, 2007, 05:04:21 PM
No. Even without surgery, your troops wont always die to slashing/piercing attacks.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 14, 2007, 05:55:05 PM
Rohan is definitely overpowered. My band of 34 rohirrim killed off a 60-man Isengard patrol, losing only 14 (including wounded + killed)

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on September 14, 2007, 06:41:57 PM
Rohan is definitely overpowered. My band of 34 rohirrim killed off a 60-man Isengard patrol, losing only 14 (including wounded + killed)

I'm up to myself, some heroes and about 45 elite riders/eorl guards. We decimate everything (minus one nasty exception) at the moment, without any losses. I go "bah" when I see orange text scroll by and "wtf" when I see a red line (healingskills at 6 6 6  ;)).
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on September 14, 2007, 06:59:15 PM
Rohan is definitely overpowered. My band of 34 rohirrim killed off a 60-man Isengard patrol, losing only 14 (including wounded + killed)



Strange thing is that they always seem to get slaughtered without the intervention of the player. Even by the Dunland forces.

On another note: why are there no archers of any kind in the Gondor Hosts and how does this effect the auto-resolve?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 14, 2007, 07:57:13 PM
That's probably because RCM screws up the autocalc. For whatever formula they use to determine who wins without the player fighting, it is just like non-RCM troops v non-RCM troops. With the player fighting, the whole system changes to RCM.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Duuvian on September 14, 2007, 08:46:03 PM
I think its probally something simple such as all the levels of your troops and aliies are added and compared to as many combined levels the enemy troops have. Thats just a guess from seeing the autocalc in action though.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 14, 2007, 08:55:49 PM
That can't be right. In Native, Vaegirs had higher skills whereas Swadians had better equipment. If what you say is true, then the Vaegirs would have whooped the hell out of the Swadians in native. From what I saw, it was pretty equal.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 14, 2007, 10:25:48 PM
The auto-calc is pretty crude.  How troop levels are calculated is kind of funny.  That's just a quirk of M&B, and the contents of the item file (i.e. changes of the RCM version) doesn't affect it.

The better troops/better equipment thing can be tweaked by setting the troops up or down a level from the beginning.  If you want recruits with good armor to be equal to 2nd tier troops on the other side, set them as 2nd tier when they are recruited.  I'm pretty sure that's the way Native did it (although I would have to go through the code one line at a time to be sure).  That does not at all account for unique traits like cav vs. infantry.

They were always funny that way.  Several people have tried to decode it in a useful way, so it could be tweaked, but I no of none that really came up with anything useful.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 14, 2007, 10:32:40 PM
Somehow Rohan (maybe Gondor, too) cavalry with a player needs to be tweaked to be balanced with the autocalc battles.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 14, 2007, 10:39:27 PM
Somehow Rohan (maybe Gondor, too) cavalry with a player needs to be tweaked to be balanced with the autocalc battles.

Someone just needs to decode how the autocalc works, so we can tweak it to fit the various mods.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 14, 2007, 10:41:41 PM
Is this a question to ask Armagan?
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 14, 2007, 10:43:29 PM
Is this a question to ask Armagan?

By all means ... go for it.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: CCA on September 15, 2007, 03:45:26 AM
This isn't really a suggestion as such but why didn't Gondor use any crossbows or field any crossbowmen/women during the war of the ring?

I mean it's a perfect weapon, imagine how stupid a ringwraith would feel after it's Nazgul gets pincushioned by about 99 crossbow bolts.

And also operating and shooting a crossbow doesnt take a lot of training and creating a crossbow isn't exactly more complicated than say, forging a sword.

If Gondor fielded crossbowmen during the war of the ring they could've utterly crushed Sauron(it works against oliphants too!)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: GetAssista on September 15, 2007, 04:14:54 AM
This isn't really a suggestion as such but why didn't Gondor use any crossbows or field any crossbowmen/women during the war of the ring?
Good people of MddleEarth are stubbornly stuck in good ol ways of their fathers and fathers of fathers. No room for new tech here ;) Evil side, on the other hand, was quite progressive, with explosives, machinery, flying beasts.
Too bad they lost in the end...
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 15, 2007, 04:46:24 AM
This isn't really a suggestion as such but why didn't Gondor use any crossbows or field any crossbowmen/women during the war of the ring?

I mean it's a perfect weapon, imagine how stupid a ringwraith would feel after it's Nazgul gets pincushioned by about 99 crossbow bolts.

And also operating and shooting a crossbow doesnt take a lot of training and creating a crossbow isn't exactly more complicated than say, forging a sword.

If Gondor fielded crossbowmen during the war of the ring they could've utterly crushed Sauron(it works against oliphants too!)

Crossbows would most definately not have worked against Oliphaunts. The only way to kill them would be hitting them in the eyes , and doing so at a rate that wouldn't get you killed, required trained archers, and not crossbowmen. Point two, a Nazgûl is a Ringwraith. Point three, Tolkien says they hadn't crossbows, so they don't have any.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 15, 2007, 04:58:23 AM
I think he means the greater accuracy and flatter trajectory of crossbow bolts would make it easier to shoot the crews off of the oliphants, rather than actually trying to kill the beast itself.

Still, yeah, Tolkien was drawing a very distinct contrast between the highly traditional free-peoples and the evil industrial society that was coming to crush them.  Odd mechanical devices and mass-produced military equipment were the marks of the orc.

Tolkien was also drawing on an image of European tech levels before or during the Crusades.  The heavy crossbows that most people picture did not really appear in Europe until at least partial plate armors became common.  The slower load times on crossbows generally made them undesirable among professional troops, up until armor got so heavy that there was no other way to damage it.  So the time frame in reference didn't really match.  (Credit where credit is due - Tolkien did match various tech levels to each other in a relatively logical way.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 15, 2007, 09:14:32 AM
A lot of people actually think that Tolkein was trying to demonize industrialization. However, I recall hearing that he refuted that claim.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 15, 2007, 09:19:18 AM
A lot of people actually think that Tolkein was trying to demonize industrialization. However, I recall hearing that he refuted that claim.

Regardless if he was actually trying to make a social statement (as some suggested and he denied) or if it was merely a literary device of his storytelling, the contrast is still there.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 15, 2007, 09:36:24 AM
Course, never denied that
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on September 15, 2007, 10:09:07 AM
I posted this already, but it was in the wrong thread...so.....

I think that there should be a request that allows players to send forth their own parties. For example, I would like to make a request, I would like to send forth a company of soldiers to combat the enemy or whatnot, I would like to send X amount of soldiers (max. 50 depending on what the moderators like) and requires some influence if you want. After that, the lord you requested it at would tell you the requirements to send forth this company; recruits, supplies (ie. food, horses) materials for equipment (iron to make swords, shields, and armor, or you can just give them the equipment itself) and time to make these things, probably depending on how many soldiers you wish to bring forth. It should only be accessable if you reach and of the captain ranks and it gives the player an opportunity to actually feel like they have command of the war utilizing their new status and rank.
All in all, the merchants will finally profit from something   :green:
 
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 15, 2007, 10:15:50 AM
After the off-topic on Tolkien and literature...
Back to suggestions:

The missions and promotion credit need a serious rework.  They're pretty cheezy the way they are.  I've been thinking about this, and I think I've come up with a workable pattern.

1.  Standing policy on valuable prisoners.  Any enemy officer brought in will return faction credit/reward equal to completing a mission to capture such.  Just turn him in to the camp lt. or whoever.  Get rid of the "capture a x" missions - they just clutter up the quests screen, and they're not terribly reasonable ("I'm sorry, we're only interrogating captains of Gondor today ... you'll have to hold the Rohan officer until we feel like taking him off your hands.").

2.  Standing policy on all enemy units destroyed.  Same as 1, above.  You kill a bunch of enemy parties, you get some credit.  There's no logical reason for them to reward only a single type of party.  Return needs to be a little lower than the "completed mission" credit, but still, generic bounties.

3.  Supply lists.  Instead of "bring x sumpter horses", each town gives you a list of materials that they will buy and give you promotion credit for providing.  Food, horses, iron, whatever their war effort needs.  This list should be subject to change from time to time ("We have enough iron for now" after you sell off what you are carrying), and should always be things that the local merchant does not carry.  Again, the camp lt. can handle it.  The quest board should record the list for each town, and update whenever you made your report to the camp lt. there.

4.  Then the quests given by lords could be restricted to special intercepts, hero rescue missions, and other high risk/high reward kinds of things.

That way the mission list won't always be cluttered with "capture an x" that will likely just be a fluke if you get one, or "kill enemy scouts" when your force is large and slow and unlikely to catch any scouts.  Also, that way, there will always be things to do... you never have to worry about not having a mission that is possible or reasonable, because there is a list of things to do (Fight, take prisoners, and/or provide supplies) that would fit just about any play style or situation.

Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Daergar on September 15, 2007, 01:34:44 PM
I love Zenoknight's idea regarding a player funded and equipped warparty to send forth.

"Come join us today for Make your own Host presentation." Bring X armor, shields, weapons and a big bag of influence and gold. Poff, out pops something you could order around without spending influence. Backup squad, suicide party, whatever. Gut feeling says it would be sweet, if doable.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: mtarini on September 15, 2007, 04:46:25 PM
Call me a Tolkien illiterate, but I have a question to ask: if/when it was possible get dwarfs and hobbits in the game, how would we use them?
Do they have any real role in the war? I can't think of any, but everybody seem to look forward to see them in, so I am curios.

The dwarves were involved in the war vs. easterlings and orcs far to the north. It would require extending the map. You can add bits on to it and stretch it north a ways. Even if not all the way to the Iron Hills you could still use the "camps" idea.

Hobbits have no role other than as a joke or npc I suppose. I dont plan on including them as a military force.

I see. Thank you.
(Hobbit NPCs are already possible, right? It is not like they need correct hit-boxes.)
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Father Chains on September 15, 2007, 04:51:20 PM
Hobbits not a military force? You kidding me? Watching a bunch of STR 4 Halflings get torn to pieces by Black Uruks would be priceless :lol:
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: slyspy on September 15, 2007, 08:04:20 PM
After the off-topic on Tolkien and literature...
Back to suggestions:

The missions and promotion credit need a serious rework.  They're pretty cheezy the way they are.  I've been thinking about this, and I think I've come up with a workable pattern.

1.  Standing policy on valuable prisoners.  Any enemy officer brought in will return faction credit/reward equal to completing a mission to capture such.  Just turn him in to the camp lt. or whoever.  Get rid of the "capture a x" missions - they just clutter up the quests screen, and they're not terribly reasonable ("I'm sorry, we're only interrogating captains of Gondor today ... you'll have to hold the Rohan officer until we feel like taking him off your hands.").

2.  Standing policy on all enemy units destroyed.  Same as 1, above.  You kill a bunch of enemy parties, you get some credit.  There's no logical reason for them to reward only a single type of party.  Return needs to be a little lower than the "completed mission" credit, but still, generic bounties.

3.  Supply lists.  Instead of "bring x sumpter horses", each town gives you a list of materials that they will buy and give you promotion credit for providing.  Food, horses, iron, whatever their war effort needs.  This list should be subject to change from time to time ("We have enough iron for now" after you sell off what you are carrying), and should always be things that the local merchant does not carry.  Again, the camp lt. can handle it.  The quest board should record the list for each town, and update whenever you made your report to the camp lt. there.

4.  Then the quests given by lords could be restricted to special intercepts, hero rescue missions, and other high risk/high reward kinds of things.

That way the mission list won't always be cluttered with "capture an x" that will likely just be a fluke if you get one, or "kill enemy scouts" when your force is large and slow and unlikely to catch any scouts.  Also, that way, there will always be things to do... you never have to worry about not having a mission that is possible or reasonable, because there is a list of things to do (Fight, take prisoners, and/or provide supplies) that would fit just about any play style or situation.



These are all good ideas. The first was, infact, incorporated into the previous version through a minimod which mysteriously (and surprisingly) was not included in the latest release of TLDs.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 15, 2007, 08:24:56 PM
The Yogi's Mini-mods for .751 included a standing reward policy on prisoners, but did not, in turn, eliminate the "capture an x" missions ... so they still cluttered up the missions screen and prevented you from getting something you could actually do.

Although granted, pre-RCM, it was possible to just solo a unit and take the leader prisoner.  Everyone playing the RCM version will now find this quite impossible ... you'll be lucky to get more than a couple of them before going down yourself, even with the help of your troops.

-----------------------------

Unrelated, but needed:

The .751 game had a sequence where, when you went down, it ran one round of auto-calculated battle.  The implication was that, when the player went down, the fight did not just stop.  We seriously need that back.  It added feel.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Demonic Spoon on September 15, 2007, 08:26:00 PM
that and it really helped balance the game out.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Ron Losey on September 15, 2007, 08:32:31 PM
that and it really helped balance the game out.

Well, that could be debated, at least until we figure out how the fool auto-calculator works.  It could unbalance the game, in its current form.  But that's not serious, as I suppose the mod community will eventually figure out the auto-resolve algorithm and get it to balance.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: DSparil on September 15, 2007, 11:29:46 PM
Suggestions

I love all of those. They would seriously improve the mod.
Title: Re: TLD: Suggestions
Post by: Zenosknight on September 15, 2007, 11:49:47 PM
After the off-topic on Tolkien and literature...
Back to suggestions:

The missions and promotion credit need a serious rework.  They're pretty cheezy the way they are.  I've been thinking about this, and I think I've come up with a workable pattern.

1.  Standing policy on valuable prisoners.  Any enemy officer brought in will return faction credit/reward equal to completing a mission to capture such.  Just turn him in to the camp lt. or whoever.  Get rid of the "capture a x" missions - they just clutter up the quests screen, and they're not terribly reasonable ("I'm sorry, we're only interrogating captains of Gondor today ... you'll have to hold the Rohan officer until we feel like taking him off your hands.").

2.  Standing policy on all enemy units destroyed.  Same as 1, above.  You kill a bunch of enemy parties, you get some credit.  There's no logical reason for them to reward only a single type of party.  Return needs to be a little lower than the "completed mission" credit, but still, generic bounties.

3.  Supply lists.  Instead of "bring x sumpter horses", each town gives you a list of materials that they will buy and give you promotion credit for providing.  Food, horses, iron, whatever their war effort needs.  This list should be subject to change from time to time ("We have enough iron for now" after you sell off what you are carrying), and should always be things that the local merchant does not carry.  Again, the camp lt. can handle it.  The quest board should record the list for each town, and update whenever you made your report to the camp lt. there.

4.  Then the quests given by lords could be restricted to special intercepts, hero rescue missions, and other high risk/high reward kinds of things.

That way the mission list won't always be cluttered with "capture an x" that will likely just be a fluke if you get one, or "kill enemy scouts" when your force is large and slow and unlikely to catch any scouts.  Also, that way, there will always be things to do... you never have to worry about not having a mission that is possible or reasonable, because there is a list of things to do (Fight, take prisoners, and/or provide supplies) that would fit just about any play style or situation.



1. Also, the evil factions also have more variety of officers, ie Black Numenorian lieutenant for the Corsairs or Dunlending Ch