Party composition rebalance

[fujiwara]

Aside from that, it will be hard to make Elven archers really useful before the port to .903 or whatever version is in place by then. The archer shuffle is not an issue TLD can fix, but from .890 onwards, a line of archers can let off quite a formidable barrage, assuming of course we can make them hit their targets and cause enough damage.

This is easily done. Check out a line of ashigaru archers, which were certainly less powerful than their samurai counterparts, and WAY less powerful than an equal number of TLD Eldarin archers, in OnR. Against equal or even larger numbers of lightly armored opponents, the ashigaru archers clean up quite well, witt only a few of their targets making it through. It'll just be a matter of getting the port to .90x working for TLD (something I await eagerly).

[Banjeeboy]

Hi Banjeeboy,

using the "report late" strategy is no "meta-gaming" or cheating IMO. The recruitment system is flawed and this method is a work-around only.

Regards, Oldtimer

Well, call it "clever use of game-mechanics" then
Anyhow, we agree on the recruitment system, so no need to argue?

[Oldtimer]

Hi Banjeeboy,

using the "report late" strategy is no "meta-gaming" or cheating IMO. The recruitment system is flawed and this method is a work-around only.

Regards, Oldtimer

Well, call it "clever use of game-mechanics" then
Anyhow, we agree on the recruitment system, so no need to argue?

Hi,

no argument for sure, just a clarification of my opinion

Regards, Oldtimer

[bohemian]

I don't know if you have settled on the Gondor tree yet, so I'll just say a few things. Gondor seemed to be more like a loose(ish) union of territories with Minas Tirith the seat of an albeit permanent and hereditary leadership. The various cities of Gondor were at most times hard pressed for their own defence but they also had to think about economic survival, so most of them had a small core of professionals, like Dol Amroth and its knights. When Minas Tirith required help, people would be recruited/conscripted and sent to its aid. Minas Tirith itself had a core of professionals and some special missions units like the Rangers of Ithilien. Of course, being this close to Mordor means that the population would be much more familiar with weaponry and soldiering than say Rohan. So even it's coscripts were solid troops. It would also seem that given the tactical requirments, the multitude of the enemies and the lack of numbers of Gondor, both the professionals and the general population would be able to operate with spear and shield (inexpensive, easy to learn their use) and archery (not as easy, but mass archer formations would be much more effective). All these bring to mind, the city states of North Italy. Small cores of professionals, great citizen armies when the need arose, mainly spear formations and lots of crossbows (absent in LOTR). Also, they had few cavalry units, but those units were usually professionals like the light stratiodi cavalry or the heavy Landsknechten. I believe this is right military for Gondor. The specific units, if you agree with my interpretation, I will leave to you.

As for Rohan, a few points. They seemed to favour opening engagements by attrition, ambushes, night attacks and then proceed with the final blow, if the attack on the orcs carrying Merry and Pippin is anything to go by. This, to me anyway, SCREAMS of Byzantine cavalry tactics (however Rohan's culture was strikingly different ). The Byzantine army was predominantly based on versalite medium cavalry (mail armour, god helmets, sword, lance, javelins or bow and perhaps and axe with a spike) with small but skilled horse archer/javelin cavalry contigents, light cavalry and finally small professional units completely covered in armour (scale armor over a mail knee-length coat) formed in wedges (outside ranks armed with maces and lances, inside with swords and javelins). The modum operandi of the Byzantine army was streght preservation, surprise and tactics over brute force, engagement in successive attrition and shock phases until the enemy broke). Admittedly, the battle on the Pelennon fields was just a huge cavalry charge but given the urgency of the situation it was the only action that would have any chance of saving the city. But, if you consider the strategic situation of Rohan before the Last Days you can see that it had to cover large areas with unsecured borders and it had to respond quickly to any incursion which would threaten the remote population center and their ability to provide cavarly forces for the protection of the realm. Which was exactly the same situation the Byzantine empire was in. Therefore, the mainstay of the Rohirrii should be a versatile, well armoured medium cavalry with sword/shield+javelins, with some light fast cavalry with bow + shield/sword and some heavily armored cavalry units with lance/sword/mace.

[Merlkir]

not sure about what you mean with the Gondorian, but the Rohirrim are almost just like that as you described them..

[Theodore]

not sure about what you mean with the Gondorian, but the Rohirrim are almost just like that as you described them..

Heck! he jsut described how I play as a Rohirrim!

[azile0]

I agree with the Gondorian setting. They are just a few days away from Mordor. That should put people on edge, and make them want to know how to use weapons in case of an orc raid.

[Taal]

Or train an elite military that is deeply supported by the untrained populace.

Just because there is danger doesn't mean it would compel an entire populace to learn to fight.
Examples being Jerusalem, or Israel in it's entirety for that matter.

Rohan on the other hand was a war faring nation, with an active sort of conscription of battle hardened citizens.

Bohemians description of Gondor, Rohan was pretty much spot on, is nice but isn't true to the book.

[Triglav]

Just because there is danger doesn't mean it would compel an entire populace to learn to fight.
Examples being Jerusalem, or Israel in it's entirety for that matter.

I though everyone in Israel has to serve in the army?

[Taal]

Guess it wasn't a very good example then 

[Ron Losey]

Guess it wasn't a very good example then 

Not even close to a good example.

Actually, almost every nation in history (ancient or modern) where there is continual danger has implemented some sort of mandatory military reserve program, i.e. most everybody who could possibly fight is required to spend some time in the military.  Usually there is a very significant difference between the "professional" military and these reserves, even if they are technically placed in the same units (i.e. recruits with career military NCO's and officers).

I think Tolkien implied that Gondor had some elite orders of knights who were professionals, and that the rest of the military was, while not completely untrained, certainly not "elite" by any measure of the word.  The top-tier troops had impressive sounding titles like "guard of the citadel".  The regulars were probably composed of pretty much everyone who could fight at all, if not conscripted, at least expected or pressured to join.  (It would not have to be active conscription ... just "join the army, or we won't be able to keep orcs from eating your family" is a pretty good motivation for a recruitment poster, especially after the orcs actually eat a few of them.)

But Gondor was under constant threat from Mordor.  If anybody was down to conscripting recruits, it would have been them.

[Gondorian039]

hey after reading this i rember a king of gondor making a decree that made like 1/2 of the population ful time or partime soilders. However, i can't rember if this is true so don't take my word on it. But, i think i read it in the unfinsihed tales book. Like i  said i'm not sure if this true or not. so please don't 'release the hounds' on me if i'm wrong

[Ron Losey]

hey after reading this i rember a king of gondor making a decree that made like 1/2 of the population ful time or partime soilders. However, i can't rember if this is true so don't take my word on it. But, i think i read it in the unfinsihed tales book. Like i  said i'm not sure if this true or not. so please don't 'release the hounds' on me if i'm wrong

Not sure if Tolkien mentioned it directly, but every government, in a time of war, requires any able-bodied males (and in some systems, some of the females as well) to fight, unless they can come up with a very good reason why they should not.

This is only significant to this thread when you take into account that all these recruits are neither trained nor equipped as professional military.  Even the orcs, who in spite of being somewhat primitive were intended to be an army, would probably be better equipped.  And that point was made previously.

[jamoecw]

well it does mean that they wouldn't be peasant level, but militia level.  nearly as good weapons if not the same, but little armor.  the main difference would be like the scene in the movie where the orc leader told the orcs not to break ranks due to catapult fire, and then when a rock came for him he stood his ground till the last instant, while the others made a big ring where it was going to hit.  militia would be like how the orcs are depicted, needing a leader to tell them to hold ranks.

[Ron Losey]

Um, just for the record ... just about anybody will need a leader to tell them to hold ranks, if doing so places them in danger.  Although modern military philosophy tends to do a somewhat better job of encouraging and putting to use one's individual will to survive, no degree of training in any form will ever condition people to just march off a cliff like lemmings.  Poorly trained troops are known for fleeing into the woods in a lathering panic before actually finding themselves in immediate danger, but when the danger is real and the exact course of said danger not easy to predict, everybody with any survival instinct at all will move.  A real tactician will take advantage of this, rather than trying to suppress it.

But conscripting of peasants might or might not include any real training.  For a somewhat modern example, look at WW2 - the United States military draft ran everybody through full basic training before sending them to the war.  The USSR sent out kids with absolutely no training and only one weapon per two guys.  The difference was just the proximity of the threat and the resulting cost/benefit analysis ... the Soviets needed only to keep the Germans busy until winter, and the weather would do the rest for them, so anyone who could occupy a window or a street corner and occasionally fire a round or two was good enough.  The U.S. was expecting their troops to perform coordinated assaults, often against fortified beaches, and simply couldn't get away with those kind of tactics if their army was more of a horde.

The same sort of thing happened in the ancient world, and would presumably happen in fictitious ones as well - how much training or equipment conscripts would have could vary a lot, depending on how hastily they were conscripted and how much extra gear was on hand for such an emergency.  Even from place to place, the equipment could vary a lot - I'm betting the royal armory would have a lot more and better spare weaponry than you could scratch up in some village.

So no, just the act of being officially conscripted would not necessarily translate into equipment or training.  It might include some or all of the above, if they were lucky, but war is hell.