Party composition rebalance

[The Yogi]

I'm going to start a little project to rebalance party composition and to some extent, troop loadout, prompted by the imbalances revealed with the introduction of RCM (although the changes will not be exclusive for RCM). I'm going to need testers both for RCM and vanilla, since I'll have limited time for gaming myself. Also, I'd welcome all and any discussion on the issue even before I start any work.

To Do List

*Mainly low tier troops for Caravans, Prisoner Trains with small middle tier element

*Mainly missile troops and light cavalry for Scouts, not necessarily low tier though

*Mainly middle tier troops in Patrols, small hight tier element

*Middle and High tier troops in Hosts

*Some missile component in most parties, add thrown weapons to low tier troops if nothing else

*Add some cav and/or missile support for Dunland parties

*Orc parties more numerous than human counterparts (but evil men and men of the west about the same)

*Composition (even) more closely reflecting military culture of faction (ie much infantry and little cav for Gondor and Corsairs, opposite for Rohan and Harad)

*Elf troops more melee capable (since the archer shuffle makes an archer army pretty damn useless).

*Equipment corrected for intended battlefield role (where needed), ie light armour for skirmishers, heavy for shock troops

Another thing I've been wondering about is the role of human 1st tier troops - should they be considered fresh recruits which appear only for training by players into useful troops or should they actually appear in parties too? The choice of role would seriously affect their equipment.

With that I leave the field open to your thoughts on the issue.

[Father Chains]

I agree on melee Elves. My Elves get trampled when left alone with the enemy. I have to trot back and forth on my horse with the orcs after me for the bastards to actually hit something.

The low/middlE/high tier composition of the different group types is dead on. I'm tired of having to hack through elite skirmishers of Rohan every dang time I attack some tiny, insiginificant scout party or caravan.

[Ron Losey]

First-tier recruits ("Youths" - need to be renamed) should show up in utterly secondary places.  Militia units, for example, or foragers.  Also, substantial numbers of them could be found with convoys - don't make it clear if they were supposed to be guarding the convoys, or if they were just carrying stuff, or if the movement of recruits was one of the functions of the convoy.

Either way, don't over-equip them.  Both Gondor and Rohan seem to be suffering from equipment inflation already.  Fresh human recruits should be relatively helpless, especially considering that, based on number of possible upgrades, they should be starting out a good deal lower than the orc snagas.

Also, in both patrols and hosts (all factions), put a very few really high tier troops and a larger number of mid to lower grade units.  You wouldn't build your "good" army out of officers and your "lower" army out of all green troops - you would have a few seasoned professionals leading/training/organizing the lesser units.  Two squires for every knight, you know.  (The Knights Templar were only allowed one squire per knight - they thought having two squires was boasting affluence.)

Scout parties should be missile-weapon heavy.  Light armor and ranged weapons are the traditional mark of scouts and rangers. 

I'll try to come up with some more stuff when I have time to think about it.

[slyspy]

I like all the different militia units on the human side. Not very effective, but they add much needed variety. This is where your low-end human troops would be. In fact the load-out is just about correct for these IMO. Maybe the peasant militia could be lead by a professional, thats about it, maybe caravans could have a civilian presence.

As Ron says there is no need to restrict the elite troops of any race to the hosts. Why not have a few in the patrols as well? Patrols, Lesser Hosts and Greater Hosts should largely be differences in scale rather than quality IMO.

Oh, and every unit must have some ranged troops. At the moment Gondor hosts do not, for example, which is stupid. Nor do Mordor patrols, which makes them little more than annoyances.

Ditch the groups of peasants running around the map. If they aren't militia then they shouldn't be there.

Severely reduce the number of quality horses in the larger Bandit groups - they have more hunters than the knights of Gondor!

Scouts don't have to be entirely low tier, but they should be composed of suitable units.

I would argue that it is the orcs who are overequipped at the moment - look at all the loot you get from a Mordor Patrol. This has no impact on their effectiveness in comabt though. Low tier human units already get no/minimal armour and a basic weapon as far as I can tell and die fast and easy.

[Ron Losey]

Speaking of range ... in ONR, we added thrown weapons to most types of infantry, so they would not just follow horse archers around like a bunch of baby ducks.  At least they would stop and try to actually hit you with something, even if it was not much of a weapon.

Now, this will mess up formations, and the AI will read them as archers for command purposes until they run out of javelins or whatever.  However, on many low-end units, the return would be worth it.  If groups like the Dunlenders would even fling daggers at you, it would prevent horse from just going through their infantry like it was nothing.

Javelins, paired with a blade or axe, for medium horse are also a good idea - they provide something between horse archers and lancers.  The warg riders already do this, but it's a good idea for lower-tier (i.e. before they specialize) human cav as well.

The units that actually respond to infantry formation commands can't do this ... but use it where you can.

[The Yogi]

Again I must ask, does this change in behaviour (from "infantry" to "archer") happen even if you do not guarantee the ranged weapon? In .751 it did not, that is, I could give a pair of heavy throwing spears to Gondor inf (without guarantee) which led to just some of them having them, but still all behaved like infantry.

[Merlkir]

Again I must ask, does this change in behaviour (from "infantry" to "archer") happen even if you do not guarantee the ranged weapon? In .751 it did not, that is, I could give a pair of heavy throwing spears to Gondor inf (without guarantee) which led to just some of them having them, but still all behaved like infantry.

if a troop carries throwing weapons, it uses the archer AI.

[Ancientwanker]

Im probably going to use this rebalance for vanilla as well and would prefer it if we didnt have too many throwing weapons going around. Else there is nothing really unique to fighting any particular unit or group. Its just a bunch of stuff being thrown around, then a melee.   When I was doing the factions initially I was just tired of making identical factions so I gave them vague specialties or weaknesses. The dunlanders being the non-missile faction. Its too easy to exploit though so I wouldnt mind some javelins on some troops and maybe eventually slings.  The easterling being the throwing weapon faction rather than just another bow faction, the haradrim being the horse-archer and light cav faction, the corsairs being heavy on missile and throwing, etc.

I think orcs have some throwing weapons from time to time, like the corsairs.

Gon/Roh infantry are linked to the formations (with the exception of youth) so they arent really fit for missiles until the ai and commands change.

[The Yogi]

Im probably going to use this rebalance for vanilla as well and would prefer it if we didnt have too many throwing weapons going around. Else there is nothing really unique to fighting any particular unit or group. Its just a bunch of stuff being thrown around, then a melee.   When I was doing the factions initially I was just tired of making identical factions so I gave them vague specialties or weaknesses. The dunlanders being the non-missile faction. Its too easy to exploit though so I wouldnt mind some javelins on some troops and maybe eventually slings.  The easterling being the throwing weapon faction rather than just another bow faction, the haradrim being the horse-archer and light cav faction, the corsairs being heavy on missile and throwing, etc.

I think orcs have some throwing weapons from time to time, like the corsairs.

Gon/Roh infantry are linked to the formations (with the exception of youth) so they arent really fit for missiles until the ai and commands change.

Hear you loud and clear. Oh, maybe sticky this?

[The Yogi]

An idea I've been toying with to limit Gondor cav use also for players; how about having two categories of "youth" or recruit or what ever; ordiany and noblemen, the latter being available to hire in far smaller numbers and being the only ones usable to upgrade the squire/knight path? If you think that another troop type is too much, it could be solved by letting the Knights of the Tower Guard be just a single troop type which can either mount or dismount depending on player choices on the conversation screen (just like their choice of sword or spear).

So you'd have

Young Nobleman => Squire => Veteran Squire => Knight => Veteran Knight => Knight of the Tower Guard

Young Commoner => Guardsman => Infantry => Veteran Infantry => Heavy Infantry => Knight of the Tower Guard

With both trees converging for Tower Guard Knights.


I thought about doing something like this for mag-7 a long time ago.. maybe I did (?). Where noble youth start the cav line.  I think the first version you do of this should be a straight up gear/party mod. Actually changing the troops around means I have to reorder many scripts that rely on precise troops in precise orders. We also have very little overheard on adding troop at the moment, though I havent counted lately, its very close to the upgradeable cap. Or at least it used to be.
                                                                                                   

[CCA]

I don't think the ammount of cavalry should be limited for the player.

Cause after all the player is meant to be some sort of 1337 uber pwner who will save Gondor from Ruin Despair misery etc etc.

I mean it might not be feasible from some pissy gondorian peasant to lead around a group of knights. But the player is supposed to lead elite companies against insurmountable odds and slay many great hosts.

I think limiting the ammount of cavalry for the player will take some of this magic away, I mean leading a group of heavy gondorian infantry is just not as cool as galloping towards the enemy with a company of Swan Knights and Mounted Tower Guards.

That's my opinion anyway.

[Merlkir]

I don't think the ammount of cavalry should be limited for the player.

1) Cause after all the player is meant to be some sort of 1337 uber pwner who will save Gondor from Ruin Despair misery etc etc.

I mean it might not be feasible from some pissy gondorian peasant to lead around a group of knights. But the player is supposed to lead elite companies against insurmountable odds and slay many great hosts.

2) I think limiting the ammount of cavalry for the player will take some of this magic away, I mean leading a group of heavy gondorian infantry is just not as cool as galloping towards the enemy with a company of Swan Knights and Mounted Tower Guards.

That's my opinion anyway.

1) no, he's not.
2) it's not taking the magic away, it's a drop of realism.

[Zenosknight]

I like the idea, it would cripple you horse worshipers quite a bit 
Also, another exploitation of horses in M&B....you don't need to water or feed them 
It's hard enough that you need to feed an entire force of soldiers, let alone the same amount of horses 

I also like to play games that I can LOSE as well as win, so no, the player being some uber pwnage guy would make M&B into a version of Fable

[Demonic Spoon]

Oh there's nothing wrong with the player being some uber pwnage guy, but being some uber pwnage guy that can kick the hell out of large amounts (>10) of elite enemy troops should be exceedingly hard, and something that only the best players can do.

Then, if you CAN manage to do that, it means you've accomplished something.

[The Yogi]

I thought about doing something like this for mag-7 a long time ago.. maybe I did (?). Where noble youth start the cav line.  I think the first version you do of this should be a straight up gear/party mod. Actually changing the troops around means I have to reorder many scripts that rely on precise troops in precise orders. We also have very little overheard on adding troop at the moment, though I havent counted lately, its very close to the upgradeable cap. Or at least it used to be.

Agreed, the first version at least will be a strictly gear/party mod.

But as for the number of troop types, it woudln't be increased with this scheme, since you'd add Noble Youth but take away Mounted Knight of the Tower Guard (since the mounted and foot version would be one and the same troop type). All the existing troops would be in their same order, just mounted tower guards would be replaced with Noble youths.